I'm pretty happy with this setup for Magnus. No more Morty & Magnus., either.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
No more Morty & Magnus., either.

Good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So this basically tells us a Brigade is 4CPs, right?

It was abused to hell, yeah. Shame, because when it wasn't abused to insane effect, it was a fun little detachment.

 Nazrak wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
No more Morty & Magnus., either.

Good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So this basically tells us a Brigade is 4CPs, right?

No, it just means that there's going to be limited armies that can even take this detachment.

Really trying to figure out how tf will Thousand Sons be even remotely playable now.

Whats a Supreme Commander?

I wish GW didn't design my army around the use of multiple characters.

 skchsan wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
No more Morty & Magnus., either.

Good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So this basically tells us a Brigade is 4CPs, right?

No, it just means that there's going to be limited armies that can even take this detachment.

Not sure I follow?

 Galas wrote:
Whats a Supreme Commander?

e.g. Bobby

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Whats a Supreme Commander?

e.g. Bobby

Whos bobby? Guilliman? Isn't he a "Primarch"?

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Really trying to figure out how tf will Thousand Sons be even remotely playable now.

Oh - you count Thousand Sons and just DPs and Ahriman. There's a bit more to it than that.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Whats a Supreme Commander?

e.g. Bobby

He's covered under Primarch.

I assume they're keeping their options open for things they may want to introduce in future?

 Galas wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Whats a Supreme Commander?

e.g. Bobby

Whos bobby? Guilliman? Isn't he a "Primarch"?

Oh, yea. Derp. Weird. Maybe Silent King?

 Nazrak wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
No more Morty & Magnus., either.

Good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So this basically tells us a Brigade is 4CPs, right?

No, it just means that there's going to be limited armies that can even take this detachment.

Not sure I follow?

I think he means a lot of armies don't have their own supreme commander and taking an allied SC is pretty stupid, at least for the imperium.

Now I can't wait to have this detachment just for Creed...

ERJAK wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
No more Morty & Magnus., either.

Good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So this basically tells us a Brigade is 4CPs, right?

No, it just means that there's going to be limited armies that can even take this detachment.

Not sure I follow?

I think he means a lot of armies don't have their own supreme commander and taking an allied SC is pretty stupid, at least for the imperium.

What's that got to do with extrapolating the CP cost of a Brigade from this, though? Sorry if I'm being dense.

I like it a lot!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Really trying to figure out how tf will Thousand Sons be even remotely playable now.

Oh - you count Thousand Sons and just DPs and Ahriman. There's a bit more to it than that.

Looking through my codex back and forth but I fail to see what's more than that. Heavy slots, no. Fast slots, no. Elite slots (outside FW), no. So it's basically bring Rubrics if you want to have HQ characters, and then make Magnus the warlord if you want to play Magnus otherwise forget it.

Oh oh, and here's the best. Because the only (so far) way to play Magnus is to have him as a warlord, it means that half of the stuff in the PA update are invalid if you bring Magnus, because he's a named character and he can't take a Cult.

So basically it's either play Magnus or play the Cults of PA.

Seems like good news (not.)

Did people really "HQ Spam" with Supreme Command detachments?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm pretty happy with this setup for Magnus. No more Morty & Magnus., either.

How does this stop the two of them from showing up. Aren't there other ways to include LoWs in your army?

 Galas wrote:
Whats a Supreme Commander?

Probably a keyword that's going to be added to the Primarch/Daemon Primarch equivalents of other armies. Ghaz will almost certainly get it, and probably the Silent King, too. Not sure who else.

Guys, they'll probably FAQ a bunch of existing HQ's to have the Supreme Commander keyword. Possibly any of the named Chapter Masters, Creed, Ahriman, Typhus, Yvraine, Aun'va, Ghazzy, and more will get it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Did people really "HQ Spam" with Supreme Command detachments?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm pretty happy with this setup for Magnus. No more Morty & Magnus., either.

How does this stop the two of them from showing up. Aren't there other ways to include LoWs in your army?

Yeah tripple Dawn eagle captains was a thing, Thousand Sons were posterboys for it with Ariman and 2 Demon Princes.

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah tripple Dawn eagle captains was a thing, Thousand Sons were posterboys for it with Ariman and 2 Demon Princes.

All of which could be done without a Supreme Command detachment...

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Guys, they'll probably FAQ a bunch of existing HQ's to have the Supreme Commander keyword. Possibly any of the named Chapter Masters, Creed, Ahriman, Typhus, Yvraine, Aun'va, Ghazzy, and more will get it.

From what they said on stream you half right halg wrong, they won't be FAQ'd to that It sounds more like this is something that will come in future codex refreshes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah tripple Dawn eagle captains was a thing, Thousand Sons were posterboys for it with Ariman and 2 Demon Princes.

All of which could be done without a Supreme Command detachment...

They could but it qas more troops tax, as generally it was Red corsairs or Alphalegion battalion plus.
Sake for Custodes even 1 Troops tax unit is 300 od points.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah tripple Dawn eagle captains was a thing, Thousand Sons were posterboys for it with Ariman and 2 Demon Princes.

All of which could be done without a Supreme Command detachment...

Basically if you want them your warlord anyway you get a free HQ slot.

Slots are an expensive commodity.

Issue I have is I don’t really want Ghaz as my warlord.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah tripple Dawn eagle captains was a thing, Thousand Sons were posterboys for it with Ariman and 2 Demon Princes.

All of which could be done without a Supreme Command detachment...

With Thousand Sons, playing Magnus will make him the warlord which will invalidate half of the stuff in the PA update (because Magnus is named and can't have a Cult). The promise from GW was that 9th edition will not harm the recent codexes and that PA will be normally available. Right now (unless there's another way to field Magnus), it's either play Magnus OR play PA for the Thousand Sons players.

I spammed HQs with my Nurgle Daemons, DP, GUO, Piper, Scrivener and usually 2-3 Herolds didn't fit into a batallion and these were also the main damage dealers in the army. So, this means I can use a batallion + supreme Command detachment and still have full CP, right? That's okay for me.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
With Thousand Sons, playing Magnus will make him the warlord which will invalidate half of the stuff in the PA update (because Magnus is named and can't have a Cult).

Your mistake here was thinking that anyone writing this rule remembered the PA 1KSons stuff. GW write rules in a vacuum. The person who wrote the Supreme Command stuff wouldn't have even considered this when doing so.

I mean, this is the same company that gave 1KSons 9 new sets of options, and then FAQ'd it to ensure that you can only ever use 1 of them at a time.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I spammed HQs with my Nurgle Daemons, DP, GUO, Piper, Scrivener and usually 2-3 Herolds didn't fit into a batallion and these were also the main damage dealers in the army. So, this means I can use a batallion + supreme Command detachment and still have full CP, right? That's okay for me.

However your Primarch has to be your warlord. And this can be a deal breaker in many occasions.

With GMan it is quite fine. +3 CP.

At the moment, as posted above, Deamons really suffer with lack of HQ slots. Only HQs and troops are really ever worth taking.

Other armies it means a nerf, TS/chaos, aldari, SWs, other SM builds. Too soon to say if this isgood or bad though.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Oh oh, and here's the best. Because the only (so far) way to play Magnus is to have him as a warlord, it means that half of the stuff in the PA update are invalid if you bring Magnus, because he's a named character and he can't take a Cult.

Fair point, but that's something that needed an errata anyway.

I get a ton more mileage out of Scarabs since PA. Based on the leaks it doesn't seem like they'll go up much.

Being able to reserve Magnus, Defilers, melee disc riders, spawn, and MVBs. Landraiders that can push with a little less concern about being swarmed.
Fiends that can move and shoot without penalty and shoot into combat.
Not needing to force battalions for CP.

A change to summoning would be welcome, too.

Now I can start with full CP, reserve Magnus for 3 CP, and avoid cultists unless I want a screen. There's a lot of wins to be had.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
With Thousand Sons, playing Magnus will make him the warlord which will invalidate half of the stuff in the PA update (because Magnus is named and can't have a Cult).

Your mistake here was thinking that anyone writing this rule remembered the PA 1KSons stuff. GW write rules in a vacuum. The person who wrote the Supreme Command stuff wouldn't have even considered this when doing so.

I mean, this is the same company that gave 1KSons 9 new sets of options, and then FAQ'd it to ensure that you can only ever use 1 of them at a time.

...and now it's use half of said 1 cult if you want to even field your big guy.

I am dissapoint.

Well feth me then.
I've been making a point of running a supreme command of slaanesh demons because i dont want to run daemonettes.
And theres no way to make an Ynnari Wraithknight anymore.

Thats such a bs change honestly.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I spammed HQs with my Nurgle Daemons, DP, GUO, Piper, Scrivener and usually 2-3 Herolds didn't fit into a batallion and these were also the main damage dealers in the army. So, this means I can use a batallion + supreme Command detachment and still have full CP, right? That's okay for me.

However your Primarch has to be your warlord. And this can be a deal breaker in many occasions.

He doesn't have a primarhc in that list.

This is what I am most afraid of - armies with Primarchs/big models will get a "free slot" for giggles, while armies without will just suffer for no reason.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I spammed HQs with my Nurgle Daemons, DP, GUO, Piper, Scrivener and usually 2-3 Herolds didn't fit into a batallion and these were also the main damage dealers in the army. So, this means I can use a batallion + supreme Command detachment and still have full CP, right? That's okay for me.

However your Primarch has to be your warlord. And this can be a deal breaker in many occasions.

Well, in this case I'm too much of a fluff player to care - I'd never even think about not taking the Primarch as the Warlord if I used it

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Well feth me then.
I've been making a point of running a supreme command of slaanesh demons because i dont want to run daemonettes.
And theres no way to make an Ynnari Wraithknight anymore.

Thats such a bs change honestly.

What was your other detachment?

 Galas wrote:
Whats a Supreme Commander?

Units that say "Supreme Commander" on their datasheet. Commander Shadowsun for instance has it already as part of her PA update. Others will probably get FAQ'd in in the launch errata.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Well feth me then.
I've been making a point of running a supreme command of slaanesh demons because i dont want to run daemonettes.
And theres no way to make an Ynnari Wraithknight anymore.

Thats such a bs change honestly.

What was your other detachment?

depends on the day but these were my usual detachments : CSM battalion/brigade, Tzeentch demons battalion, Slaanesh supreme command, Thousand sons supreme/battalion

The Slaanesh demons i own are litterally only : Syll'esske, The contorted epitome and an herald on foot.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I spammed HQs with my Nurgle Daemons, DP, GUO, Piper, Scrivener and usually 2-3 Herolds didn't fit into a batallion and these were also the main damage dealers in the army. So, this means I can use a batallion + supreme Command detachment and still have full CP, right? That's okay for me.

However your Primarch has to be your warlord. And this can be a deal breaker in many occasions.

He doesn't have a primarhc in that list.

This is what I am most afraid of - armies with Primarchs/big models will get a "free slot" for giggles, while armies without will just suffer for no reason.

It's not a free slot. It makes your big guy your warlord. Which means that 1. You're most likely giving away Slay the Warlord early. 2. You get locked out of a lot of options (specifically T.Sons lose 2/3 of their PA update if they want to even field Magnus.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I spammed HQs with my Nurgle Daemons, DP, GUO, Piper, Scrivener and usually 2-3 Herolds didn't fit into a batallion and these were also the main damage dealers in the army. So, this means I can use a batallion + supreme Command detachment and still have full CP, right? That's okay for me.

However your Primarch has to be your warlord. And this can be a deal breaker in many occasions.

He doesn't have a primarhc in that list.

This is what I am most afraid of - armies with Primarchs/big models will get a "free slot" for giggles, while armies without will just suffer for no reason.

Yeah. Remember when multiple detachments were going to have costs to encourage strategy and tactics?
Oh, sorry, no one mentioned refunds to get around the costs.

Its bizarre to watch a company introduce design principles via previews and invalidate them within days, before new edition even launches.

I still don't understand why this stops you from taking two Daemon Primarchs.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I still don't understand why this stops you from taking two Daemon Primarchs.

because people forget that you can run one in a superheavy aux detachment

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Well feth me then.
I've been making a point of running a supreme command of slaanesh demons because i dont want to run daemonettes.
And theres no way to make an Ynnari Wraithknight anymore.

Thats such a bs change honestly.

What was your other detachment?

depends on the day but these were my usual detachments : CSM battalion/brigade, Tzeentch demons battalion, Slaanesh supreme command, Thousand sons supreme/battalion

The Slaanesh demons i own are litterally only : Syll'esske, The contorted epitome and an herald on foot.

Ah, gotcha. Yea that complicates it. It definitely looks like they want fewer HQs around.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I spammed HQs with my Nurgle Daemons, DP, GUO, Piper, Scrivener and usually 2-3 Herolds didn't fit into a batallion and these were also the main damage dealers in the army. So, this means I can use a batallion + supreme Command detachment and still have full CP, right? That's okay for me.

However your Primarch has to be your warlord. And this can be a deal breaker in many occasions.

He doesn't have a primarhc in that list.

This is what I am most afraid of - armies with Primarchs/big models will get a "free slot" for giggles, while armies without will just suffer for no reason.

It's not a free slot. It makes your big guy your warlord. Which means that 1. You're most likely giving away Slay the Warlord early. 2. You get locked out of a lot of options (specifically T.Sons lose 2/3 of their PA update if they want to even field Magnus.

It's a free slot though. Consider the following:

I fill my HQs with Keepers of Secrets. that's 3, if I bring a battalion. 5 max, if I bring a BDE.

A friend of mine wants Fulgrim, so fair enough, he has to bring one fewer keepe- oh wait, no, he doesn't, he just slaps Fulgrim down in this detachment and can bring the same number of keepers as me, points permitting.

Armies without primarchs/supreme commanders lose this slot because they lose the option to take this detachment.

topaxygouroun i wrote:


It's not a free slot. It makes your big guy your warlord. Which means that 1. You're most likely giving away Slay the Warlord early. 2. You get locked out of a lot of options (specifically T.Sons lose 2/3 of their PA update if they want to even field Magnus.

I'm thinking there won't be things like Slay the Warlord or First Blood. It is either Primary or Secondary now. There's a 3 points for a Character kill, but no one wants to kill Magnus for that -- unless it has a clause for bigger models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I still don't understand why this stops you from taking two Daemon Primarchs.

Sorry - to revise - no smash brothers without a cost.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Well feth me then.
I've been making a point of running a supreme command of slaanesh demons because i dont want to run daemonettes.
And theres no way to make an Ynnari Wraithknight anymore.

Thats such a bs change honestly.

What was your other detachment?

depends on the day but these were my usual detachments : CSM battalion/brigade, Tzeentch demons battalion, Slaanesh supreme command, Thousand sons supreme/battalion

The Slaanesh demons i own are litterally only : Syll'esske, The contorted epitome and an herald on foot.

Ah, gotcha. Yea that complicates it. It definitely looks like they want fewer HQs around.

yeah, this bums me out a lot, 3 of my armies just got pretty huge hits, i'm guessing to nerf the Thousand Sons supreme command list :(

This is great news. I am very pleased.

I'm not opposed to the idea of HQs becoming rarer in principle, but this impacts different armies in radically different ways.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm not opposed to the idea of HQs becoming rarer in principle, but this impacts different armies in radically different ways.

We might see a number of named HQs get 'supreme commander'. So while it isn't a LOW there's still a way to expand HQ slots by one if you opt for that model's trait.

That feels like a step in the wrong direction, though. Reducing the amount of HQ choices but boosting the amount of named HQs is not how I'd like to see the game to go.

I.e. I do not want a world where every TS army has Magnus because it's the only way to get enough HQ choices to make the army work.

It already feels a bit ridiculous to see certain named characters in essentially every single list for that faction (Ahriman, Celestine, Feirros, Daedalosus, etc).

yukishiro1 wrote:
That feels like a step in the wrong direction, though. Reducing the amount of HQ choices but boosting the amount of named HQs is not how I'd like to see the game to go.

I.e. I do not want a world where every TS army has Magnus because it's the only way to get enough HQ choices to make the army work.

It already feels a bit ridiculous to see certain named characters in essentially every single list for that faction (Ahriman, Celestine, Feirros, Daedalosus, etc).

How is taking Magnus the only way to get enough HQ choices to make TS work? I think a lot of people are having some extreme difficulty in understanding just how all of these detachments are going to work.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Well feth me then.
I've been making a point of running a supreme command of slaanesh demons because i dont want to run daemonettes.

Thats such a bs change honestly.

Me too, especially after all the negative horde changes i was going to shift more to slaanesh daemon princesses, keepers, big mamma slaanesh daemon if forgeworld stops makign her a joke... guess thats off the table too.

other side maybe they will bring back vect or any of the other named HQ's with supreme commander..

not sure what would even go in there for sisters, the triumph maybe? Celestine isnt really an "army commander" so dont see her, the OoML special character could probably go there, she is a cannoness superior... so who knows..

yukishiro1 wrote:
That feels like a step in the wrong direction, though. Reducing the amount of HQ choices but boosting the amount of named HQs is not how I'd like to see the game to go.

I.e. I do not want a world where every TS army has Magnus because it's the only way to get enough HQ choices to make the army work.

It already feels a bit ridiculous to see certain named characters in essentially every single list for that faction (Ahriman, Celestine, Feirros, Daedalosus, etc).

I don't think that is the case. Magnus comes with the caveat - reserve me or die, which will be 3 CP. Without this such a maneuver would be 6 CP and borderline unviable. Magnus still requires a lot of planning. You need a second caster dedicated to healing and buffing him so that Magnus doesn't spend time doing that and spends more time killing. Ahriman may well be a candidate, but its hard to say. Otherwise going Bridgage or Battalion / Patrol doesn't seem terrible, but it depends on what you want to run.

tulun wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah tripple Dawn eagle captains was a thing, Thousand Sons were posterboys for it with Ariman and 2 Demon Princes.

All of which could be done without a Supreme Command detachment...

Basically if you want them your warlord anyway you get a free HQ slot.

Slots are an expensive commodity.

Issue I have is I don’t really want Ghaz as my warlord.

Well you're not being forced to play him. But if you do? Then your going to play in-character for the faction - wich means the biggest baddest Ork on the field is "Da Boss".

 Daedalus81 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
That feels like a step in the wrong direction, though. Reducing the amount of HQ choices but boosting the amount of named HQs is not how I'd like to see the game to go.

I.e. I do not want a world where every TS army has Magnus because it's the only way to get enough HQ choices to make the army work.

It already feels a bit ridiculous to see certain named characters in essentially every single list for that faction (Ahriman, Celestine, Feirros, Daedalosus, etc).

I don't think that is the case. Magnus comes with the caveat - reserve me or die, which will be 3 CP. Without this such a maneuver would be 6 CP and borderline unviable. Magnus still requires a lot of planning. You need a second caster dedicated to healing and buffing him so that Magnus doesn't spend time doing that and spends more time killing. Ahriman may well be a candidate, but its hard to say. Otherwise going Bridgage or Battalion / Patrol doesn't seem terrible, but it depends on what you want to run.

I'm not saying it *is* the case. Just that I wouldn't like to see the solution to the lack of HQ slots be "just take this named HQ in a supreme detachment instead!" rather than rebalancing armies to not be so HQ-dependent.

ccs wrote:

tulun wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah tripple Dawn eagle captains was a thing, Thousand Sons were posterboys for it with Ariman and 2 Demon Princes.

All of which could be done without a Supreme Command detachment...

Basically if you want them your warlord anyway you get a free HQ slot.

Slots are an expensive commodity.

Issue I have is I don’t really want Ghaz as my warlord.

Well you're not being forced to play him. But if you do? Then your going to play in-character for the faction - wich means the biggest baddest Ork on the field is "Da Boss".

Not really. He can just take up a normal HQ slot, and I can make someone else my warlord.

Which is probably the smarter play unless I desperately need another HQ slot.

His warlord trait is... so mediocre.

 warmaster21 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Well feth me then.
I've been making a point of running a supreme command of slaanesh demons because i dont want to run daemonettes.

Thats such a bs change honestly.

Me too, especially after all the negative horde changes i was going to shift more to slaanesh daemon princesses, keepers, big mamma slaanesh daemon if forgeworld stops makign her a joke... guess thats off the table too.

other side maybe they will bring back vect or any of the other named HQ's with supreme commander..

not sure what would even go in there for sisters, the triumph maybe? Celestine isnt really an "army commander" so dont see her, the OoML special character could probably go there, she is a cannoness superior... so who knows..

I'm really hoping that theres gonna be an alternative that lets me play without forcing me to buy new units that don't interest me. I guess i could do a vanguard detachment with 3x1 fiends as an alternative

tulun wrote:

ccs wrote:

tulun wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah tripple Dawn eagle captains was a thing, Thousand Sons were posterboys for it with Ariman and 2 Demon Princes.

All of which could be done without a Supreme Command detachment...

Basically if you want them your warlord anyway you get a free HQ slot.

Slots are an expensive commodity.

Issue I have is I don’t really want Ghaz as my warlord.

Well you're not being forced to play him. But if you do? Then your going to play in-character for the faction - wich means the biggest baddest Ork on the field is "Da Boss".

Not really. He can just take up a normal HQ slot, and I can make someone else my warlord.

Which is probably the smarter play unless I desperately need another HQ slot.

His warlord trait is... so mediocre.

So as you've got a work around (for the moment) you were just complaining to complain?

The biggest thing I gleem from this is that the Supreme Command only refunds CP to brigade, battalion, and patrol. So you can't use it with and outrider etc. (if they still even exist). Also this really supports some other statements in other reveals about "core" detachments having the warlord refund the CP. So even if outrider etc. still exist it is likely they will not get a CP refund for having the warlord in them. I know there should be a CP cost for the flexibility of those detachments, but I was hoping if the warlord was in it you could get some of the CP back.

The Supremme Command detachment for spamming HQ was probably the most complained about detachment of 8th edition. Is no surprise that they basically destroyed it.


Of course it will suck for people that made armies around. But thats how GW works.

Personally I find it a good change. I hate hero-hammer and I believe is just bad for the game.

Yeah, I like this change. I'm looking forward to seeing if the non-core detachments exist/what they cost as well. I think a move towards encouraging a more traditional army organization is generally good.

I am not sad at all to see the old Supreme Command Detachment go. Overall I think the 9th ed army rules are a nice improvement over 8th.

ccs wrote:

tulun wrote:

ccs wrote:

tulun wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah tripple Dawn eagle captains was a thing, Thousand Sons were posterboys for it with Ariman and 2 Demon Princes.

All of which could be done without a Supreme Command detachment...

Basically if you want them your warlord anyway you get a free HQ slot.

Slots are an expensive commodity.

Issue I have is I don’t really want Ghaz as my warlord.

Well you're not being forced to play him. But if you do? Then your going to play in-character for the faction - wich means the biggest baddest Ork on the field is "Da Boss".

Not really. He can just take up a normal HQ slot, and I can make someone else my warlord.

Which is probably the smarter play unless I desperately need another HQ slot.

His warlord trait is... so mediocre.

So as you've got a work around (for the moment) you were just complaining to complain?

Not complaining, I was just noting it doesn't really do much for certain armies. This is really for the Lord of War HQs.

This is a very positive development. The Supreme Command detachment was part of the Soup abuse. You want Dawn Eagle Captains to support your AM? Well, you have to bring some Custodes along as well. Ahriman and two Tzeench DPs on their own supporting Red Corsairs? Nope.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah, I like this change. I'm looking forward to seeing if the non-core detachments exist/what they cost as well. I think a move towards encouraging a more traditional army organization is generally good.

Honestly, it kind of move away from it. You'll likely only ever see 3 minimum troop units on the board from now on for the majority of armies (maybe 4). As opposed to before where the battalion rules encouraged anywhere from 6-9 units of troops.

If the Spearhead/etc are still in the game and are the same or cheaper CP than a battalion, you'll likely never see 2 battalions or a brigade basically ever. The only efficient builds for most armies will be Mono Battalion, Battalion+Specialist, Battalion+Patrol.

Brigades are likely not going to see much play due to being less flexible, having 2 more tax units than battalion+patrol, and also not allowing you to mix and match Chapter Tactics.

Obviously this changes some if you have seriously bomb-arse troops but most armies do not.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

I'm really hoping that theres gonna be an alternative that lets me play without forcing me to buy new units that don't interest me. I guess i could do a vanguard detachment with 3x1 fiends as an alternative

Yea that's probably the best bet. Fiends are god damn annoying. They make a good front line partner.

tulun wrote:

ccs wrote:

tulun wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah tripple Dawn eagle captains was a thing, Thousand Sons were posterboys for it with Ariman and 2 Demon Princes.

All of which could be done without a Supreme Command detachment...

Basically if you want them your warlord anyway you get a free HQ slot.

Slots are an expensive commodity.

Issue I have is I don’t really want Ghaz as my warlord.

Well you're not being forced to play him. But if you do? Then your going to play in-character for the faction - wich means the biggest baddest Ork on the field is "Da Boss".

Not really. He can just take up a normal HQ slot, and I can make someone else my warlord.

Which is probably the smarter play unless I desperately need another HQ slot.

His warlord trait is... so mediocre.

Wait, if you take Ghaz, he doesn't *have* to be your WL? That's ridiculous.

 Nazrak wrote:

Wait, if you take Ghaz, he doesn't *have* to be your WL? That's ridiculous.

Same as all the other supreme commanders in 8th. He's just an HQ -- he doesn't have to be your warlord.

And you really don't want him to be. Orks have some good warlord traits, and we get 1 only. If we want a second one, you have to take a Blood Axe locked relic (so you're giving up a relic slot... and we don't get those cheaply either), or the specialist detachment ones, which are pretty bad.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Really trying to figure out how tf will Thousand Sons be even remotely playable now.

Oh - you count Thousand Sons and just DPs and Ahriman. There's a bit more to it than that.

I built an entertaining list last night.
Superheavy Detachment - House Lucaris
CK Despoiler with Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet & Ironstorm Missile Pod. Warlord with Strikes First, Strikes Often trait.
2 War Dogs with Thermal Spear, Reaper Chain-cleaver and meltagun

1k Sons Battalion, Cult of Duplicity
2 Winged Demon Princes with 2 sets of Malefic Talons, Death Hex & Treason of Tzeentch
3 Rubric Squads with Tzeentch's Firestorm

only comes to about 1400 points, so plenty of room either for the point increases or to expand for more objective grabbing.

Lore wise it doesn't make any sense that a superhero like GMan, Mortarion, Ghaz, etc is not the warlord. If all of these superheroes are automatically the warlord of the lists in which they are in that's a very good point for GW, probably the best thing I've seen so far about those 9th edition daily leaks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tulun wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

Wait, if you take Ghaz, he doesn't *have* to be your WL? That's ridiculous.

Same as all the other supreme commanders in 8th. He's just an HQ -- he doesn't have to be your warlord.

And you really don't want him to be. Orks have some good warlord traits, and we get 1 only. If we want a second one, you have to take a Blood Axe locked relic (so you're giving up a relic slot... and we don't get those cheaply either), or the specialist detachment ones, which are pretty bad.

From a gamey perspective yes, it doesn't have to be. But a legend like Ghaz can't be the lieutenant of another ork, even if the army would be more optimized. It's simply nonsense.

ERJAK wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah, I like this change. I'm looking forward to seeing if the non-core detachments exist/what they cost as well. I think a move towards encouraging a more traditional army organization is generally good.

Honestly, it kind of move away from it. You'll likely only ever see 3 minimum troop units on the board from now on for the majority of armies (maybe 4). As opposed to before where the battalion rules encouraged anywhere from 6-9 units of troops.

If the Spearhead/etc are still in the game and are the same or cheaper CP than a battalion, you'll likely never see 2 battalions or a brigade basically ever. The only efficient builds for most armies will be Mono Battalion, Battalion+Specialist, Battalion+Patrol.

Brigades are likely not going to see much play due to being less flexible, having 2 more tax units than battalion+patrol, and also not allowing you to mix and match Chapter Tactics.

Obviously this changes some if you have seriously bomb-arse troops but most armies do not.

Eh, I'm not sure I buy that- in 8th I was heavily incentivized to take the minimum number of the smallest squad possible per battalion to max out on cheap CP. If I can ditch the token units and instead take a few larger units, I consider that a step forward.

My wife plays Drukhari, specifically Covens. She has exactly one Troops choice (Wracks). At 2K she'd need double battalion under the old system to have enough CP, so she'd need to take six squads of Wracks, almost certainly at minimum size. Now she has the option to run squads of 10, which is both fluffy and better for stratagems, making those units actually useful in their own right.

Or take AdMech. Ten Vanguard decked out with Plasma Calivers is a legitimate combat unit, but the old FOC encouraged you to take bare-bones five-model squads instead. Now AdMech players can easily meet Battalion requirements, but have the option to make those Troops choices into decent combatants rather than just CPs and meatshields.

Yeah, some armies don't have good troops and will still take the bare minimum- but to be honest, I prefer that over forcing them to use those crappy Troops. Hopefully those Troops choices can be adequately rebalanced so that people want to take them rather than feeling like they have to.

Plus, it really helps for HQ choices as well. I don't want to have to run Neurothropes just to fill slots, my wife doesn't want 4+ Haemonculi, and I'm sure AdMech players don't want 4+ Tech-Priest Domini. For the factions with either less HQ variety or no super cheap HQs, it's nice to not have to pour points into those repeat units.

 Dolnikan wrote:
Now I can't wait to have this detachment just for Creed...

That's assuming he sticks around.

Remember that "Fall of Cadia" ended with him being pokeballed.

 Blackie wrote:


From a gamey perspective yes, it doesn't have to be. But a legend like Ghaz can't be the lieutenant of another ork, even if the army would be more optimized. It's simply nonsense.

Totally. It's just a shame I am strongly incentivized to *not* do this. Like I said -- Orks get 1 warlord trait, and it gets put to really good use. On Ghaz, its functionally +1 attack, and an even bigger bullseye on his head for slay the warlord.

ERJAK wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah, I like this change. I'm looking forward to seeing if the non-core detachments exist/what they cost as well. I think a move towards encouraging a more traditional army organization is generally good.

Honestly, it kind of move away from it. You'll likely only ever see 3 minimum troop units on the board from now on for the majority of armies (maybe 4). As opposed to before where the battalion rules encouraged anywhere from 6-9 units of troops.

If the Spearhead/etc are still in the game and are the same or cheaper CP than a battalion, you'll likely never see 2 battalions or a brigade basically ever. The only efficient builds for most armies will be Mono Battalion, Battalion+Specialist, Battalion+Patrol.

Brigades are likely not going to see much play due to being less flexible, having 2 more tax units than battalion+patrol, and also not allowing you to mix and match Chapter Tactics.

Obviously this changes some if you have seriously bomb-arse troops but most armies do not.

I think there's still a place for Brigades in 2k games and certainly in 2k+. The fact that you get up to 5 HQ and 2 Aircraft without spending any CP, I think, certainly makes up for the "tax" units. Full disclosure, I also don't really subscribe to the "Tax" philosophy, and especially not when we've got secondaries in missions that will require a unit to take actions. If you've got troops, you let them do the action so that your other, better units aren't locked up.

I think the specialist detachments will take the biggest hit since they won't refund CP. I think certain characters or armies will unlock a specialist refund, ie. If Ravenwing character is the warlord of a Ravenwing Outrider detachment, that detachment will refund its CP, etc. I might still experiment with multi-detachment subfaction soup, and at that point if you're paying for a second detachment anyway, it might as well be a specialist detachment if it suits you better But I think in the end I'll prefer to hang onto the CP and at 2k points, that's going to mean one brigade.

I think the 3k game is going to be a weird one to explore; at those points, mono-detachment almost ceases to be an option. That's where you're going to see subfaction soup, or even full on soup. It's going to be an interesting ride.

Your mistake here was thinking that anyone writing this rule remembered the PA 1KSons stuff. GW write rules in a vacuum. The person who wrote the Supreme Command stuff wouldn't have even considered this when doing so.

While you're not wrong, I suspect the bigger mistake will turn out to have been ever believing that 9th would be compatible with 8th ed materials in the first place.

This change really bums me out, but I'm in a wierd place. Most of my armies are nowhere near what you would call "competitive", but still fall well within the areas apparently being targeted by the 9th ed rules. For example, I play mono Tsons, with mostly Rubrics and no Magnus (although I DO use Ahriman). To get them even remotely competitive I need that extra boost from the supreme command detachment. It's still not a "top-tier" list but lets me play decently competitive games, and it's not a soup list.

Oh well. Hopefully they adjust the army in some way to account for this ...

ERJAK wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah, I like this change. I'm looking forward to seeing if the non-core detachments exist/what they cost as well. I think a move towards encouraging a more traditional army organization is generally good.

Honestly, it kind of move away from it. You'll likely only ever see 3 minimum troop units on the board from now on for the majority of armies (maybe 4). As opposed to before where the battalion rules encouraged anywhere from 6-9 units of troops.

If the Spearhead/etc are still in the game and are the same or cheaper CP than a battalion, you'll likely never see 2 battalions or a brigade basically ever. The only efficient builds for most armies will be Mono Battalion, Battalion+Specialist, Battalion+Patrol.

Brigades are likely not going to see much play due to being less flexible, having 2 more tax units than battalion+patrol, and also not allowing you to mix and match Chapter Tactics.

Obviously this changes some if you have seriously bomb-arse troops but most armies do not.

Maybe? Imo it's too soon to tell since we don't know the cost for the specialist organizations. If the cost for a second Battalion is 3 CP and the cost for a Spearhead is 6 CP, then there's gonna be some soul searching.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm not opposed to the idea of HQs becoming rarer in principle, but this impacts different armies in radically different ways.

We might see a number of named HQs get 'supreme commander'. So while it isn't a LOW there's still a way to expand HQ slots by one if you opt for that model's trait.

Being forced in to taking dragio in every army just to have 4HQ, because GW designed your army to run it with 4 HQs, is a case of pre building the list for you.

Deleted.

Karol wrote:

Being forced in to taking dragio in every army just to have 4HQ, because GW designed your army to run it with 4 HQs, is a case of pre building the list for you.

Armies weren't designed for HQs. People just optimized for what they could get the most out of and that wound up being HQs. Now you can "get" 4, but you're paying a penalty on the WL trait. Magnus' trait is mostly worthless.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Dolnikan wrote:
Now I can't wait to have this detachment just for Creed...

That's assuming he sticks around.

Remember that "Fall of Cadia" ended with him being pokeballed.

Yeah that's right and Kell died too.

Maybe he will end up becoming like Lord Commander Solar Macharius? Lost to past editions?

Sweet, I can't wait to have limited squishy HQ for Guard, or just load up on tank commanders and follow the way of the Mech, which it feels like is the new way.

Related:

Flyer spam is also reigned in. No detachment allows for more than two.

So your choices are an additional patrol for 2 CP + 1 HQ and 1 Troop, or 3 CP and even more units for Battalion, Vanguard, Spearhead or Outrider, or 2 CP for each individual flyer.

Well for flyers taken in single of units yes, for ones that can squad it brings it in a bit but I never really saw many flyers to begin with in most lists and if someone wants to spam them, they still will do an ok job and just pay the CP as flyers can be a pretty potent tool in the shed.

Just speaking for Deathwatch but I actually won't feel like I'm dropping a load of poopy to use my Black stars once they can move and shoot well too. It's like walking and chewing bubblegum at the same time ! Finally !

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well for flyers taken in single of units yes, for ones that can squad it brings it in a bit but I never really saw many flyers to begin with in most lists and if someone wants to spam them, they still will do an ok job and just pay the CP as flyers can be a pretty potent tool in the shed.

Just speaking for Deathwatch but I actually won't feel like I'm dropping a load of poopy to use my Black stars once they can move and shoot well too. It's like walking and chewing bubblegum at the same time ! Finally !

Shrug. Just something I've seen before- people (marines and eldar, mostly*) bringing in lists with 8 flyers into the store on a random game night, and basically pulling an 'Aha, tremble fools!'
This nips that pretty thoroughly.

*usually after some 'internet famous' tournament result.

Voss wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well for flyers taken in single of units yes, for ones that can squad it brings it in a bit but I never really saw many flyers to begin with in most lists and if someone wants to spam them, they still will do an ok job and just pay the CP as flyers can be a pretty potent tool in the shed.

Just speaking for Deathwatch but I actually won't feel like I'm dropping a load of poopy to use my Black stars once they can move and shoot well too. It's like walking and chewing bubblegum at the same time ! Finally !

Shrug. Just something I've seen before- people (marines and eldar, mostly*) bringing in lists with 8 flyers into the store on a random game night, and basically pulling an 'Aha, tremble fools!'
This nips that pretty thoroughly.

*usually after some 'internet famous' tournament result.

Well I'm the resident fly guy around here and I never field many anymore as people would, rightly so, feel a bit salty on being run over by the Air Cav every game. If they won or lost, didn't matter. Though I think this and 9th edition flyers aren't what they once were.

I've never run 8 though, I think like 4 was my max at any time. So I'm probably not the guy they are aiming to hold back with the flyer spam.

Yeah, Four is easy to do under these detachments.

I think the best use for flyers in 9th is as charge blockers, amusingly. Their engagement range is rather big and almost completely sacrosanct as far as I can tell. I'm not even sure models with fly can charge Aircraft (though they can pile in, consolidate or heroically intervene into aircraft if they have fly)

I actually just took flyers to fly and shoot and drop stuff off. I get their blocking usage but always felt too gamey for me. I know, I'm a bad player.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I actually just took flyers to fly and shoot and drop stuff off. I get their blocking usage but always felt too gamey for me. I know, I'm a bad player.

It truthfully never really occurred to me (I don't actually use flyers, due to an unreasonable hatred of flight stands) until the 9th edition rules started repeatedly referencing their Engagement Range and how verboten it is for any model to end any kind of move in it.

----
I suspect the exception I'm looking for is hiding in the rules for 'Fly' itself (which aren't in the leaked pages of the rulebook), but I'm annoyed its not in 'Flying' under advanced movement rules, in with the general Aircraft rules section on piling in, consolidating and Heroic Intervention _or_ 'flying when charging' in the Charge section's advanced rules. Especially the last one.

Voss wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well for flyers taken in single of units yes, for ones that can squad it brings it in a bit but I never really saw many flyers to begin with in most lists and if someone wants to spam them, they still will do an ok job and just pay the CP as flyers can be a pretty potent tool in the shed.

Just speaking for Deathwatch but I actually won't feel like I'm dropping a load of poopy to use my Black stars once they can move and shoot well too. It's like walking and chewing bubblegum at the same time ! Finally !

Shrug. Just something I've seen before- people (marines and eldar, mostly*) bringing in lists with 8 flyers into the store on a random game night, and basically pulling an 'Aha, tremble fools!'
This nips that pretty thoroughly.

I believe that Drukhari can still bring six flyers without paying CP.

I am befuddled as to what the benefit of putting an HQ in this detachment would be. This obviously can't be your only detachment because one lonely HQ isn't gonna be enough points, so... why not just put that HQ in your battalion where it belongs?

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I am befuddled as to what the benefit of putting an HQ in this detachment would be. This obviously can't be your only detachment because one lonely HQ isn't gonna be enough points, so... why not just put that HQ in your battalion where it belongs?

I suspect from the way GW was waffling about how this was going to be future proofing, the biggest named charictors in each faction will get the supreme commander treatment a d they will not be allowed in the "normal detachments" eg patrol, brigade etc.

Ice_can wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I am befuddled as to what the benefit of putting an HQ in this detachment would be. This obviously can't be your only detachment because one lonely HQ isn't gonna be enough points, so... why not just put that HQ in your battalion where it belongs?

I suspect from the way GW was waffling about how this was going to be future proofing, the biggest named charictors in each faction will get the supreme commander treatment a d they will not be allowed in the "normal detachments" eg patrol, brigade etc.

which I suppose the idea is to prevent some sort of "Morty/Magnus bro squad" shinnagens from happening

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I am befuddled as to what the benefit of putting an HQ in this detachment would be. This obviously can't be your only detachment because one lonely HQ isn't gonna be enough points, so... why not just put that HQ in your battalion where it belongs?

I suspect from the way GW was waffling about how this was going to be future proofing, the biggest named charictors in each faction will get the supreme commander treatment a d they will not be allowed in the "normal detachments" eg patrol, brigade etc.

which I suppose the idea is to prevent some sort of "Morty/Magnus bro squad" shinnagens from happening

Yeah as if those armies actually managed to do anything useful ever...

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I am befuddled as to what the benefit of putting an HQ in this detachment would be. This obviously can't be your only detachment because one lonely HQ isn't gonna be enough points, so... why not just put that HQ in your battalion where it belongs?

I suspect from the way GW was waffling about how this was going to be future proofing, the biggest named charictors in each faction will get the supreme commander treatment a d they will not be allowed in the "normal detachments" eg patrol, brigade etc.

which I suppose the idea is to prevent some sort of "Morty/Magnus bro squad" shinnagens from happening

I suspect Failbadon, Swarmlord, Silent King (though if he isnt a LoW I'll be shocked) Shadowsun & Farsight (Possibly as part of the 8) will be inline for this treatment as the new codex's roll out.

Ice_can wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I am befuddled as to what the benefit of putting an HQ in this detachment would be. This obviously can't be your only detachment because one lonely HQ isn't gonna be enough points, so... why not just put that HQ in your battalion where it belongs?

I suspect from the way GW was waffling about how this was going to be future proofing, the biggest named charictors in each faction will get the supreme commander treatment a d they will not be allowed in the "normal detachments" eg patrol, brigade etc.

which I suppose the idea is to prevent some sort of "Morty/Magnus bro squad" shinnagens from happening

I suspect Failbadon, Swarmlord, Silent King (though if he isnt a LoW I'll be shocked) Shadowsun & Farsight (Possibly as part of the 8) will be inline for this treatment as the new codex's roll out.

my guess would be Abaddon, silent king, shadowsun, Ghaz, and the Ynnari Trimvirate.

Assuming there will be a few "obvious" supereme commander candidates in most codexes, then hypothetically you should be able to go:

Supreme Command: Shadowsun.
Tau Sept Patrol: Rando Commander
Tau Sept Patrol: Rando Commander
Starting CP 10 - Troop tax 2.

Or:
Supreme Command: Farsight.
FSE Patrol: Double Rando Commander
FSE Patrol: Double Rando Commander
Starting CP 10 - Troop tax 2.

Which seems kind of reasonable to me.

Not sure if we will see:
Supreme Command: Magnus.
Battalion: Triple Daemon Prince
Battalion: Triple Exalted Sorcerer
Starting CP 9 is ok - Troop tax of 6 puts me off!

If Ahriman gets Supreme Commander I'd probably do Sup-Pat-Pat for 5 HQs though.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I am befuddled as to what the benefit of putting an HQ in this detachment would be. This obviously can't be your only detachment because one lonely HQ isn't gonna be enough points, so... why not just put that HQ in your battalion where it belongs?

Fourth HQ

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah, I like this change. I'm looking forward to seeing if the non-core detachments exist/what they cost as well. I think a move towards encouraging a more traditional army organization is generally good.

They do, and for something like a vanguard, outrider, or a spearhead, they will cost 3cp each. I haven't poured over all of the leaked pages to commit it to memory though.

The Supreme Command detachment will also remove the need for the special rule currently on Ghaz and Shadowsun that allow them to be run in a detachment that is not of their Kulture/Sept without breaking the detachment type. Instead, you can now just run them in a Supreme Command detachment. The cost of doing so is a detachment and the dictation of your warlord, but no CP cost.

 alextroy wrote:
The Supreme Command detachment will also remove the need for the special rule currently on Ghaz and Shadowsun that allow them to be run in a detachment that is not of their Kulture/Sept without breaking the detachment type. Instead, you can now just run them in a Supreme Command detachment. The cost of doing so is a detachment and the dictation of your warlord, but no CP cost.

They still need to go fix some kf the janky oh yeah this commander is so boss they can command any faction but their buff abilities doesnt work unless your the same subfaction so including them is pointless anyway.

That's a feature, not a bug

 alextroy wrote:
That's a feature, not a bug

Well it's certainly a feature in why I'm not buying those shiney new models with non functional rules.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I am befuddled as to what the benefit of putting an HQ in this detachment would be. This obviously can't be your only detachment because one lonely HQ isn't gonna be enough points, so... why not just put that HQ in your battalion where it belongs?

Fourth HQ

And a nerf to non-HQ super heavys. Can't give them traits or build them their own detachment with buffing HQs anymore.

Ice_can wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
That's a feature, not a bug

Well it's certainly a feature in why I'm not buying those shiney new models with non functional rules.

That's why subfactions need their own "supreme commanders". I want Zso Sahaal and I want him now. I'm sick of Black Legion getting all the csm characters.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I am befuddled as to what the benefit of putting an HQ in this detachment would be. This obviously can't be your only detachment because one lonely HQ isn't gonna be enough points, so... why not just put that HQ in your battalion where it belongs?

Fourth HQ

And a nerf to non-HQ super heavys. Can't give them traits or build them their own detachment with buffing HQs anymore.

Ice_can wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
That's a feature, not a bug

Well it's certainly a feature in why I'm not buying those shiney new models with non functional rules.

That's why subfactions need their own "supreme commanders". I want Zso Sahaal and I want him now. I'm sick of Black Legion getting all the csm characters.

I am also tired that OoML gets every single special character in existance for sisters. even if said character doesnt have the order tag, in their fluff they are all from OoML...

It's still ridiculous to me that the Raptor Lord was made Black Legion. He should have been a generic HQ, and if not he should have been a Night Lords character.

I am kinda curious how far the "supreme commander" tag is gonna go. I'd be cool with a tank commander in a baneblade...

My suspicion is it has gone as far as it is going to go, except for the Silent King when released. They covered the Primarch and Daemon Primarch, Ghazgul, and Shadowsun. Who else is really a Supreme Commander?

I suppose Abbadon should get the tag, but who else really? That would give use 3 for Chaos, one for Imperium, one for Orks, one for Necrons, and one for Tau. There is no Supreme Commander for Tyranids or Eldar, unless they give that to the Incarne.

 alextroy wrote:
My suspicion is it has gone as far as it is going to go, except for the Silent King when released. They covered the Primarch and Daemon Primarch, Ghazgul, and Shadowsun. Who else is really a Supreme Commander?

I suppose Abbadon should get the tag, but who else really? That would give use 3 for Chaos, one for Imperium, one for Orks, one for Necrons, and one for Tau. There is no Supreme Commander for Tyranids or Eldar, unless they give that to the Incarne.

Farsight could be argued as being equal to Shadowsun, but I susoect that won't happen till he gets a non Failcast Mini.

 alextroy wrote:
My suspicion is it has gone as far as it is going to go, except for the Silent King when released. They covered the Primarch and Daemon Primarch, Ghazgul, and Shadowsun. Who else is really a Supreme Commander?

I suppose Abbadon should get the tag, but who else really? That would give use 3 for Chaos, one for Imperium, one for Orks, one for Necrons, and one for Tau. There is no Supreme Commander for Tyranids or Eldar, unless they give that to the Incarne.

Eldrad? Vect? Sanguinius? The Dark Angels and Space Wolves guys? Creed, Trajann Valoris, Cawl, The Greater Daemons from fw. That's just off the top of my head. They could always make more.

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I am befuddled as to what the benefit of putting an HQ in this detachment would be. This obviously can't be your only detachment because one lonely HQ isn't gonna be enough points, so... why not just put that HQ in your battalion where it belongs?

I suspect from the way GW was waffling about how this was going to be future proofing, the biggest named charictors in each faction will get the supreme commander treatment a d they will not be allowed in the "normal detachments" eg patrol, brigade etc.

which I suppose the idea is to prevent some sort of "Morty/Magnus bro squad" shinnagens from happening

This does not prevent Morty/Magnus from happening. I don't understand why this keeps getting brought up.

Taking a primarch or HQ unit in this detachment frees up a slot in your normal detachment for other HQ units, while also refunding the same amount of CP as you would have received if your HQ was in your normal battalion or brigade. Is there any reason NOT to put an HQ in this detachment if eligible?

Mortarian and Magnus are LOW choices. There are no LOW slots in battalions, brigades, or patrols. You would have to take an auxiliary super heavy detachment in order to get the second primarch, which will cost you 3CP. So, there's that.

Paying for any detachment beyond your warlord detachment costs 3CP or something like it. Seems like a pretty normal thing?

3CP to run Morty/Magnus is hardly 'preventing' you from running bash bros.

 alextroy wrote:
My suspicion is it has gone as far as it is going to go, except for the Silent King when released. They covered the Primarch and Daemon Primarch, Ghazgul, and Shadowsun. Who else is really a Supreme Commander?

I suppose Abbadon should get the tag, but who else really? That would give use 3 for Chaos, one for Imperium, one for Orks, one for Necrons, and one for Tau. There is no Supreme Commander for Tyranids or Eldar, unless they give that to the Incarne.

The Swarmlord, for Tyranids. It'd nip the Patrol of him and 40 Genestealers in the bud, not that some other shenanigans hasn't already done that... and he's supposed to be the Supreme Hive Tyrant Bioform. Doesn't look it other than being a big tyrant. Wasn't ever a LoW, but they could have made him one and given him the stats to match.

 slave.entity wrote:
Paying for any detachment beyond your warlord detachment costs 3CP or something like it. Seems like a pretty normal thing?

3CP to run Morty/Magnus is hardly 'preventing' you from running bash bros.

Bear in mind it is a cost AND it is two detachments.

 slave.entity wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I am befuddled as to what the benefit of putting an HQ in this detachment would be. This obviously can't be your only detachment because one lonely HQ isn't gonna be enough points, so... why not just put that HQ in your battalion where it belongs?

I suspect from the way GW was waffling about how this was going to be future proofing, the biggest named charictors in each faction will get the supreme commander treatment a d they will not be allowed in the "normal detachments" eg patrol, brigade etc.

which I suppose the idea is to prevent some sort of "Morty/Magnus bro squad" shinnagens from happening

This does not prevent Morty/Magnus from happening. I don't understand why this keeps getting brought up.

Taking a primarch or HQ unit in this detachment frees up a slot in your normal detachment for other HQ units, while also refunding the same amount of CP as you would have received if your HQ was in your normal battalion or brigade. Is there any reason NOT to put an HQ in this detachment if eligible?

It forces your supreme commander to be your warlord would be a reason not to do it, if you'd rather have a different warlord, only detriment.

 alextroy wrote:
My suspicion is it has gone as far as it is going to go, except for the Silent King when released. They covered the Primarch and Daemon Primarch, Ghazgul, and Shadowsun. Who else is really a Supreme Commander?

Interestingly, Shadowsun has an ability named Supreme Commander, but not the actual Keyword that would let her be included in this Detachment. Obviously the intent is for her to be, but RAW nope.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
My suspicion is it has gone as far as it is going to go, except for the Silent King when released. They covered the Primarch and Daemon Primarch, Ghazgul, and Shadowsun. Who else is really a Supreme Commander?

Interestingly, Shadowsun has an ability named Supreme Commander, but not the actual Keyword that would let her be included in this Detachment. Obviously the intent is for her to be, but RAW nope.

The Supreme Commander thing is a new rule, obviously an 8th edition datasheet isn't going to reflect it. Same deal as the big list of weapons that are Blast now.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
My suspicion is it has gone as far as it is going to go, except for the Silent King when released. They covered the Primarch and Daemon Primarch, Ghazgul, and Shadowsun. Who else is really a Supreme Commander?

Interestingly, Shadowsun has an ability named Supreme Commander, but not the actual Keyword that would let her be included in this Detachment. Obviously the intent is for her to be, but RAW nope.

The Supreme Commander thing is a new rule, obviously an 8th edition datasheet isn't going to reflect it. Same deal as the big list of weapons that are Blast now.

Some of the Ad Mech stuff in Engine War has keywords that are only really relevant in 9th. Adding a keyword that has no relevance in 8th to Shadowsun wouldn't have done anything but future proof. As I said, the intent is obvious.

 Galas wrote:
Whats a Supreme Commander?

I'm guessing a model like a Chapter Master, Swarmlord or Ghazzy. Or a Titanic Knight model.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
With Thousand Sons, playing Magnus will make him the warlord which will invalidate half of the stuff in the PA update (because Magnus is named and can't have a Cult).

Your mistake here was thinking that anyone writing this rule remembered the PA 1KSons stuff. GW write rules in a vacuum. The person who wrote the Supreme Command stuff wouldn't have even considered this when doing so.

I mean, this is the same company that gave 1KSons 9 new sets of options, and then FAQ'd it to ensure that you can only ever use 1 of them at a time.

I think it would be neat and also fluffy to allow Magnus to select a second Warlord Trait from one of the Nine Cults, being the most powerful psyker in the known universe besides Emps and all. Then price him accordingly of course.

I feel like this change really hurts how CSM currently plays. I recently got back into the game and as a longtime CSM player I was surprised by how much soup and HQs they had to take just to be competitive. I think an average list had something like 3 disco lords, 2 sorcerers, and 2 Dark apostles plus 1 or 2 misc. ones like Master of Possessions or Warpsmith... and they aren't even considered THAT competitive.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:

Being forced in to taking dragio in every army just to have 4HQ, because GW designed your army to run it with 4 HQs, is a case of pre building the list for you.

Armies weren't designed for HQs. People just optimized for what they could get the most out of and that wound up being HQs. Now you can "get" 4, but you're paying a penalty on the WL trait. Magnus' trait is mostly worthless.

GK are build around the casting of new PA psychic powers, and only characters can cast those. 4 HQs is a bare minimum, as one is going to be a CP bot every turn anyway. when they talked about GK rules in PA on their twich chanel when PA4 was coming out, they very much said that characters are going to be the focus of it. As are going to be paladins.

In the 9th GK write up they have on their site, the playtester who did them also says how paladins and characters are the most important thing for GK.

To me those bares all the hallmarks of being designed to be focused on those two types of units.

Just about everything in 9th hurts how CSM plays. We all saw this coming when they said they were nerfing soup.

 slave.entity wrote:
Just about everything in 9th hurts how CSM plays. We all saw this coming when they said they were nerfing soup.

How many people were taking a Corsairs Batt for CP and doing nothing with it? Daemon Engines are super happy.

What people need to keep in mind is the game plays a lot differently now. Scoring primaries, for example, in your command phase means you can't just run, grab, score, and die.


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Karol wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Karol wrote:

Being forced in to taking dragio in every army just to have 4HQ, because GW designed your army to run it with 4 HQs, is a case of pre building the list for you.

Armies weren't designed for HQs. People just optimized for what they could get the most out of and that wound up being HQs. Now you can "get" 4, but you're paying a penalty on the WL trait. Magnus' trait is mostly worthless.

GK are build around the casting of new PA psychic powers, and only characters can cast those. 4 HQs is a bare minimum, as one is going to be a CP bot every turn anyway. when they talked about GK rules in PA on their twich chanel when PA4 was coming out, they very much said that characters are going to be the focus of it. As are going to be paladins.

In the 9th GK write up they have on their site, the playtester who did them also says how paladins and characters are the most important thing for GK.

To me those bares all the hallmarks of being designed to be focused on those two types of units.

That isn't what the article said. Characters in GK are important just as mine are, but you're going to need to think differently on how you use them.

Paying 3 cp and 3x MSU troops IS an expense, but doing it would give you 6 HQ.

And if you happen to like your Supreme Commander's WL trait, and subfaction (in some cases), the Supreme Command detachment is pretty darned cool. It sucks that Magnus has a bad WL trait; his should be the coolest.

Pandabeer wrote:
I think it would be neat and also fluffy to allow Magnus to select a second Warlord Trait from one of the Nine Cults, being the most powerful psyker in the known universe besides Emps and all. Then price him accordingly of course.

Tzeentch is all about change so theres definitely an argument for Magnus to not have a specific WL trait

ALL the changes so far have really hurt mono slaanesh. those that had ranged weapons (whips) could already "shoot" into melee even ones they weren't involved with.

 warmaster21 wrote:
ALL the changes so far have really hurt mono slaanesh. those that had ranged weapons (whips) could already "shoot" into melee even ones they weren't involved with.

Flanking and terrain rules, and overwatch becoming a strat were all good for all close combat forces. The flanking is not as big a deal for daemons, due to lots of built in DS, but it's still another tool in the toolbox.

Blast and fall back hurt, but fallback is no worse than 8th.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Daemon Engines are super happy.

True, but only the ones that were underplayed. And they're still getting hurt from losing the ability to soup with daemons for free.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
With Thousand Sons, playing Magnus will make him the warlord which will invalidate half of the stuff in the PA update (because Magnus is named and can't have a Cult).

Your mistake here was thinking that anyone writing this rule remembered the PA 1KSons stuff. GW write rules in a vacuum. The person who wrote the Supreme Command stuff wouldn't have even considered this when doing so.

I mean, this is the same company that gave 1KSons 9 new sets of options, and then FAQ'd it to ensure that you can only ever use 1 of them at a time.

...and now it's use half of said 1 cult if you want to even field your big guy.

I am dissapoint.

Or field magnus as non warlord

Which costs 3 CP and his chapter trait.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


That isn't what the article said. Characters in GK are important just as mine are, but you're going to need to think differently on how you use them.

They are needed to use the basic mechanics mechanics the GK army has, at least until GW makes a 9th ed GK codex , conslidates the codex and PA rules, and makes it possible for non characters to use tide related psychic powers.

Every unit, even the lowliest of chaffs are important, to their respective armies. But if there was a unit with a rule of, lets say, to use a WAAGH or chapter tactics you need a warboss/captin on the board, then it turns from important to required to use the army mechanics. Those are two different things. In one caseyou can change how you use, sacrifice one for the other or mix and match. In the other case there is no going around this. A GK player is going to need a CP generator bot, a tider changer a chaplain to buff the paladins etc. There is no place for I will replace it with something else, because there is no something else.

Karol wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


That isn't what the article said. Characters in GK are important just as mine are, but you're going to need to think differently on how you use them.

They are needed to use the basic mechanics mechanics the GK army has, at least until GW makes a 9th ed GK codex , conslidates the codex and PA rules, and makes it possible for non characters to use tide related psychic powers.

Every unit, even the lowliest of chaffs are important, to their respective armies. But if there was a unit with a rule of, lets say, to use a WAAGH or chapter tactics you need a warboss/captin on the board, then it turns from important to required to use the army mechanics. Those are two different things. In one caseyou can change how you use, sacrifice one for the other or mix and match. In the other case there is no going around this. A GK player is going to need a CP generator bot, a tider changer a chaplain to buff the paladins etc. There is no place for I will replace it with something else, because there is no something else.

Orks are feeling the same. With the current codex multiple HQs are pretty much required, and even fielding 5-6 in an optimal choice. The new detachment system forces orks lists to be reworked pretty hard; however if this and all the other edition's changes will benefit or cripple the faction is too soon to say.

I'm also somehow bitter at the moment as according to the leaks I can't field the army I'd like to play without losing something (a lot actually) in terms of competitiveness, but it's really too soon to say and first impressions could be wrong.


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Spoletta wrote:
Which costs 3 CP and his chapter trait.

Sounds fair. Free Warhammer from gigantic models

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 slave.entity wrote:
Just about everything in 9th hurts how CSM plays. We all saw this coming when they said they were nerfing soup.

How many people were taking a Corsairs Batt for CP and doing nothing with it? Daemon Engines are super happy.

What people need to keep in mind is the game plays a lot differently now. Scoring primaries, for example, in your command phase means you can't just run, grab, score, and die.

Bold, considering alot of dakka options for Daemonengines are going upwards due to Blast and considering their inherent flaws.
Not to mention there was 1 daemonenengine that worked and that is in the HQ position...
And i don't think a Brigade is an option either, because csm at 14 pts (or even 15 like tacs) is only slightly above 60 pts cultist squads now is it.
FA is full of waste of paper for most of the subfactions, and mix and match is also not working.
Elites is iffy. And heavy support will probably still prefer Obliterators and havocs over Daemonengines.