Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The biggest thing I gleem from this is that the Supreme Command only refunds CP to brigade, battalion, and patrol. So you can't use it with and outrider etc. (if they still even exist). Also this really supports some other statements in other reveals about "core" detachments having the warlord refund the CP. So even if outrider etc. still exist it is likely they will not get a CP refund for having the warlord in them. I know there should be a CP cost for the flexibility of those detachments, but I was hoping if the warlord was in it you could get some of the CP back.

The Supremme Command detachment for spamming HQ was probably the most complained about detachment of 8th edition. Is no surprise that they basically destroyed it.


Of course it will suck for people that made armies around. But thats how GW works.

Personally I find it a good change. I hate hero-hammer and I believe is just bad for the game.

Yeah, I like this change. I'm looking forward to seeing if the non-core detachments exist/what they cost as well. I think a move towards encouraging a more traditional army organization is generally good.

I am not sad at all to see the old Supreme Command Detachment go. Overall I think the 9th ed army rules are a nice improvement over 8th.

ccs wrote:

tulun wrote:

ccs wrote:

tulun wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah tripple Dawn eagle captains was a thing, Thousand Sons were posterboys for it with Ariman and 2 Demon Princes.

All of which could be done without a Supreme Command detachment...

Basically if you want them your warlord anyway you get a free HQ slot.

Slots are an expensive commodity.

Issue I have is I don’t really want Ghaz as my warlord.

Well you're not being forced to play him. But if you do? Then your going to play in-character for the faction - wich means the biggest baddest Ork on the field is "Da Boss".

Not really. He can just take up a normal HQ slot, and I can make someone else my warlord.

Which is probably the smarter play unless I desperately need another HQ slot.

His warlord trait is... so mediocre.

So as you've got a work around (for the moment) you were just complaining to complain?

Not complaining, I was just noting it doesn't really do much for certain armies. This is really for the Lord of War HQs.

This is a very positive development. The Supreme Command detachment was part of the Soup abuse. You want Dawn Eagle Captains to support your AM? Well, you have to bring some Custodes along as well. Ahriman and two Tzeench DPs on their own supporting Red Corsairs? Nope.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah, I like this change. I'm looking forward to seeing if the non-core detachments exist/what they cost as well. I think a move towards encouraging a more traditional army organization is generally good.

Honestly, it kind of move away from it. You'll likely only ever see 3 minimum troop units on the board from now on for the majority of armies (maybe 4). As opposed to before where the battalion rules encouraged anywhere from 6-9 units of troops.

If the Spearhead/etc are still in the game and are the same or cheaper CP than a battalion, you'll likely never see 2 battalions or a brigade basically ever. The only efficient builds for most armies will be Mono Battalion, Battalion+Specialist, Battalion+Patrol.

Brigades are likely not going to see much play due to being less flexible, having 2 more tax units than battalion+patrol, and also not allowing you to mix and match Chapter Tactics.

Obviously this changes some if you have seriously bomb-arse troops but most armies do not.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

I'm really hoping that theres gonna be an alternative that lets me play without forcing me to buy new units that don't interest me. I guess i could do a vanguard detachment with 3x1 fiends as an alternative

Yea that's probably the best bet. Fiends are god damn annoying. They make a good front line partner.

tulun wrote:

ccs wrote:

tulun wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Yeah tripple Dawn eagle captains was a thing, Thousand Sons were posterboys for it with Ariman and 2 Demon Princes.

All of which could be done without a Supreme Command detachment...

Basically if you want them your warlord anyway you get a free HQ slot.

Slots are an expensive commodity.

Issue I have is I don’t really want Ghaz as my warlord.

Well you're not being forced to play him. But if you do? Then your going to play in-character for the faction - wich means the biggest baddest Ork on the field is "Da Boss".

Not really. He can just take up a normal HQ slot, and I can make someone else my warlord.

Which is probably the smarter play unless I desperately need another HQ slot.

His warlord trait is... so mediocre.

Wait, if you take Ghaz, he doesn't *have* to be your WL? That's ridiculous.

 Nazrak wrote:

Wait, if you take Ghaz, he doesn't *have* to be your WL? That's ridiculous.

Same as all the other supreme commanders in 8th. He's just an HQ -- he doesn't have to be your warlord.

And you really don't want him to be. Orks have some good warlord traits, and we get 1 only. If we want a second one, you have to take a Blood Axe locked relic (so you're giving up a relic slot... and we don't get those cheaply either), or the specialist detachment ones, which are pretty bad.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Really trying to figure out how tf will Thousand Sons be even remotely playable now.

Oh - you count Thousand Sons and just DPs and Ahriman. There's a bit more to it than that.

I built an entertaining list last night.
Superheavy Detachment - House Lucaris
CK Despoiler with Reaper Chainsword, Thunderstrike Gauntlet & Ironstorm Missile Pod. Warlord with Strikes First, Strikes Often trait.
2 War Dogs with Thermal Spear, Reaper Chain-cleaver and meltagun

1k Sons Battalion, Cult of Duplicity
2 Winged Demon Princes with 2 sets of Malefic Talons, Death Hex & Treason of Tzeentch
3 Rubric Squads with Tzeentch's Firestorm

only comes to about 1400 points, so plenty of room either for the point increases or to expand for more objective grabbing.

Lore wise it doesn't make any sense that a superhero like GMan, Mortarion, Ghaz, etc is not the warlord. If all of these superheroes are automatically the warlord of the lists in which they are in that's a very good point for GW, probably the best thing I've seen so far about those 9th edition daily leaks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tulun wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:

Wait, if you take Ghaz, he doesn't *have* to be your WL? That's ridiculous.

Same as all the other supreme commanders in 8th. He's just an HQ -- he doesn't have to be your warlord.

And you really don't want him to be. Orks have some good warlord traits, and we get 1 only. If we want a second one, you have to take a Blood Axe locked relic (so you're giving up a relic slot... and we don't get those cheaply either), or the specialist detachment ones, which are pretty bad.

From a gamey perspective yes, it doesn't have to be. But a legend like Ghaz can't be the lieutenant of another ork, even if the army would be more optimized. It's simply nonsense.

ERJAK wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah, I like this change. I'm looking forward to seeing if the non-core detachments exist/what they cost as well. I think a move towards encouraging a more traditional army organization is generally good.

Honestly, it kind of move away from it. You'll likely only ever see 3 minimum troop units on the board from now on for the majority of armies (maybe 4). As opposed to before where the battalion rules encouraged anywhere from 6-9 units of troops.

If the Spearhead/etc are still in the game and are the same or cheaper CP than a battalion, you'll likely never see 2 battalions or a brigade basically ever. The only efficient builds for most armies will be Mono Battalion, Battalion+Specialist, Battalion+Patrol.

Brigades are likely not going to see much play due to being less flexible, having 2 more tax units than battalion+patrol, and also not allowing you to mix and match Chapter Tactics.

Obviously this changes some if you have seriously bomb-arse troops but most armies do not.

Eh, I'm not sure I buy that- in 8th I was heavily incentivized to take the minimum number of the smallest squad possible per battalion to max out on cheap CP. If I can ditch the token units and instead take a few larger units, I consider that a step forward.

My wife plays Drukhari, specifically Covens. She has exactly one Troops choice (Wracks). At 2K she'd need double battalion under the old system to have enough CP, so she'd need to take six squads of Wracks, almost certainly at minimum size. Now she has the option to run squads of 10, which is both fluffy and better for stratagems, making those units actually useful in their own right.

Or take AdMech. Ten Vanguard decked out with Plasma Calivers is a legitimate combat unit, but the old FOC encouraged you to take bare-bones five-model squads instead. Now AdMech players can easily meet Battalion requirements, but have the option to make those Troops choices into decent combatants rather than just CPs and meatshields.

Yeah, some armies don't have good troops and will still take the bare minimum- but to be honest, I prefer that over forcing them to use those crappy Troops. Hopefully those Troops choices can be adequately rebalanced so that people want to take them rather than feeling like they have to.

Plus, it really helps for HQ choices as well. I don't want to have to run Neurothropes just to fill slots, my wife doesn't want 4+ Haemonculi, and I'm sure AdMech players don't want 4+ Tech-Priest Domini. For the factions with either less HQ variety or no super cheap HQs, it's nice to not have to pour points into those repeat units.

 Dolnikan wrote:
Now I can't wait to have this detachment just for Creed...

That's assuming he sticks around.

Remember that "Fall of Cadia" ended with him being pokeballed.

 Blackie wrote:


From a gamey perspective yes, it doesn't have to be. But a legend like Ghaz can't be the lieutenant of another ork, even if the army would be more optimized. It's simply nonsense.

Totally. It's just a shame I am strongly incentivized to *not* do this. Like I said -- Orks get 1 warlord trait, and it gets put to really good use. On Ghaz, its functionally +1 attack, and an even bigger bullseye on his head for slay the warlord.

ERJAK wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah, I like this change. I'm looking forward to seeing if the non-core detachments exist/what they cost as well. I think a move towards encouraging a more traditional army organization is generally good.

Honestly, it kind of move away from it. You'll likely only ever see 3 minimum troop units on the board from now on for the majority of armies (maybe 4). As opposed to before where the battalion rules encouraged anywhere from 6-9 units of troops.

If the Spearhead/etc are still in the game and are the same or cheaper CP than a battalion, you'll likely never see 2 battalions or a brigade basically ever. The only efficient builds for most armies will be Mono Battalion, Battalion+Specialist, Battalion+Patrol.

Brigades are likely not going to see much play due to being less flexible, having 2 more tax units than battalion+patrol, and also not allowing you to mix and match Chapter Tactics.

Obviously this changes some if you have seriously bomb-arse troops but most armies do not.

I think there's still a place for Brigades in 2k games and certainly in 2k+. The fact that you get up to 5 HQ and 2 Aircraft without spending any CP, I think, certainly makes up for the "tax" units. Full disclosure, I also don't really subscribe to the "Tax" philosophy, and especially not when we've got secondaries in missions that will require a unit to take actions. If you've got troops, you let them do the action so that your other, better units aren't locked up.

I think the specialist detachments will take the biggest hit since they won't refund CP. I think certain characters or armies will unlock a specialist refund, ie. If Ravenwing character is the warlord of a Ravenwing Outrider detachment, that detachment will refund its CP, etc. I might still experiment with multi-detachment subfaction soup, and at that point if you're paying for a second detachment anyway, it might as well be a specialist detachment if it suits you better But I think in the end I'll prefer to hang onto the CP and at 2k points, that's going to mean one brigade.

I think the 3k game is going to be a weird one to explore; at those points, mono-detachment almost ceases to be an option. That's where you're going to see subfaction soup, or even full on soup. It's going to be an interesting ride.

Your mistake here was thinking that anyone writing this rule remembered the PA 1KSons stuff. GW write rules in a vacuum. The person who wrote the Supreme Command stuff wouldn't have even considered this when doing so.

While you're not wrong, I suspect the bigger mistake will turn out to have been ever believing that 9th would be compatible with 8th ed materials in the first place.

This change really bums me out, but I'm in a wierd place. Most of my armies are nowhere near what you would call "competitive", but still fall well within the areas apparently being targeted by the 9th ed rules. For example, I play mono Tsons, with mostly Rubrics and no Magnus (although I DO use Ahriman). To get them even remotely competitive I need that extra boost from the supreme command detachment. It's still not a "top-tier" list but lets me play decently competitive games, and it's not a soup list.

Oh well. Hopefully they adjust the army in some way to account for this ...

ERJAK wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Yeah, I like this change. I'm looking forward to seeing if the non-core detachments exist/what they cost as well. I think a move towards encouraging a more traditional army organization is generally good.

Honestly, it kind of move away from it. You'll likely only ever see 3 minimum troop units on the board from now on for the majority of armies (maybe 4). As opposed to before where the battalion rules encouraged anywhere from 6-9 units of troops.

If the Spearhead/etc are still in the game and are the same or cheaper CP than a battalion, you'll likely never see 2 battalions or a brigade basically ever. The only efficient builds for most armies will be Mono Battalion, Battalion+Specialist, Battalion+Patrol.

Brigades are likely not going to see much play due to being less flexible, having 2 more tax units than battalion+patrol, and also not allowing you to mix and match Chapter Tactics.

Obviously this changes some if you have seriously bomb-arse troops but most armies do not.

Maybe? Imo it's too soon to tell since we don't know the cost for the specialist organizations. If the cost for a second Battalion is 3 CP and the cost for a Spearhead is 6 CP, then there's gonna be some soul searching.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
I'm not opposed to the idea of HQs becoming rarer in principle, but this impacts different armies in radically different ways.

We might see a number of named HQs get 'supreme commander'. So while it isn't a LOW there's still a way to expand HQ slots by one if you opt for that model's trait.

Being forced in to taking dragio in every army just to have 4HQ, because GW designed your army to run it with 4 HQs, is a case of pre building the list for you.

Deleted.

Karol wrote:

Being forced in to taking dragio in every army just to have 4HQ, because GW designed your army to run it with 4 HQs, is a case of pre building the list for you.

Armies weren't designed for HQs. People just optimized for what they could get the most out of and that wound up being HQs. Now you can "get" 4, but you're paying a penalty on the WL trait. Magnus' trait is mostly worthless.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Dolnikan wrote:
Now I can't wait to have this detachment just for Creed...

That's assuming he sticks around.

Remember that "Fall of Cadia" ended with him being pokeballed.

Yeah that's right and Kell died too.

Maybe he will end up becoming like Lord Commander Solar Macharius? Lost to past editions?

Sweet, I can't wait to have limited squishy HQ for Guard, or just load up on tank commanders and follow the way of the Mech, which it feels like is the new way.

Related:

Flyer spam is also reigned in. No detachment allows for more than two.

So your choices are an additional patrol for 2 CP + 1 HQ and 1 Troop, or 3 CP and even more units for Battalion, Vanguard, Spearhead or Outrider, or 2 CP for each individual flyer.

Well for flyers taken in single of units yes, for ones that can squad it brings it in a bit but I never really saw many flyers to begin with in most lists and if someone wants to spam them, they still will do an ok job and just pay the CP as flyers can be a pretty potent tool in the shed.

Just speaking for Deathwatch but I actually won't feel like I'm dropping a load of poopy to use my Black stars once they can move and shoot well too. It's like walking and chewing bubblegum at the same time ! Finally !

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well for flyers taken in single of units yes, for ones that can squad it brings it in a bit but I never really saw many flyers to begin with in most lists and if someone wants to spam them, they still will do an ok job and just pay the CP as flyers can be a pretty potent tool in the shed.

Just speaking for Deathwatch but I actually won't feel like I'm dropping a load of poopy to use my Black stars once they can move and shoot well too. It's like walking and chewing bubblegum at the same time ! Finally !

Shrug. Just something I've seen before- people (marines and eldar, mostly*) bringing in lists with 8 flyers into the store on a random game night, and basically pulling an 'Aha, tremble fools!'
This nips that pretty thoroughly.

*usually after some 'internet famous' tournament result.

Voss wrote:

AngryAngel80 wrote:
Well for flyers taken in single of units yes, for ones that can squad it brings it in a bit but I never really saw many flyers to begin with in most lists and if someone wants to spam them, they still will do an ok job and just pay the CP as flyers can be a pretty potent tool in the shed.

Just speaking for Deathwatch but I actually won't feel like I'm dropping a load of poopy to use my Black stars once they can move and shoot well too. It's like walking and chewing bubblegum at the same time ! Finally !

Shrug. Just something I've seen before- people (marines and eldar, mostly*) bringing in lists with 8 flyers into the store on a random game night, and basically pulling an 'Aha, tremble fools!'
This nips that pretty thoroughly.

*usually after some 'internet famous' tournament result.

Well I'm the resident fly guy around here and I never field many anymore as people would, rightly so, feel a bit salty on being run over by the Air Cav every game. If they won or lost, didn't matter. Though I think this and 9th edition flyers aren't what they once were.

I've never run 8 though, I think like 4 was my max at any time. So I'm probably not the guy they are aiming to hold back with the flyer spam.

Yeah, Four is easy to do under these detachments.

I think the best use for flyers in 9th is as charge blockers, amusingly. Their engagement range is rather big and almost completely sacrosanct as far as I can tell. I'm not even sure models with fly can charge Aircraft (though they can pile in, consolidate or heroically intervene into aircraft if they have fly)

I actually just took flyers to fly and shoot and drop stuff off. I get their blocking usage but always felt too gamey for me. I know, I'm a bad player.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I actually just took flyers to fly and shoot and drop stuff off. I get their blocking usage but always felt too gamey for me. I know, I'm a bad player.

It truthfully never really occurred to me (I don't actually use flyers, due to an unreasonable hatred of flight stands) until the 9th edition rules started repeatedly referencing their Engagement Range and how verboten it is for any model to end any kind of move in it.

----
I suspect the exception I'm looking for is hiding in the rules for 'Fly' itself (which aren't in the leaked pages of the rulebook), but I'm annoyed its not in 'Flying' under advanced movement rules, in with the general Aircraft rules section on piling in, consolidating and Heroic Intervention _or_ 'flying when charging' in the Charge section's advanced rules. Especially the last one.