Ok, so we have 3 versions of a tank, a transport, melee, terminators, special weapons and stock troopers, scouts, bikes, dreads, a speeder (though one with wheels), a variety of characters, tech marine, chaplain, apothecary, librarian, standard bearer and some new characters to boot.
Some named characters have gotten the primaris treatment, others are going to be on the way (you all know it).
So besides a gunship, what else is left for primaris to have everything and old marines to get squatted?
I don't think Old Marines getting squatted will depend on Primaris Marines achieving some benchmark on units/models available.
It'll more likely be a function of store logistics, old-marine sales numbers, convenience of timing (change from 9th to 10 edition? Or 10th to 11th?), etc..
The real point is, if they stop releasing primaris stuff and focus on other factions more, with a less frantic release schedule, will shareholders be happy ?
The real point is, if they stop releasing primaris stuff and focus on other factions more, with a less frantic release schedule, will shareholders be happy ?
This!
The problem is, it's not a question of "what's left" or "what's needed".
GW needs to continue releasing Marines to keep their numbers up. They'll always be furiously working on new ideas and concepts to release. And if they ever genuinely run out, Cawl will roll out the next generation of Pri-Primaris or whatever and the cycle starts over.
Don't worry. Shortly after everything from the old SM roster gets primarized GW will launch the upgraded versions of primaris with 3W base, an entire new line of models.
Perhaps they'll just focus on specific chapters releasing unique primaris units like primaris wulfen, TWC, death company, death/raven wing, etc...
GW can't stop releasing new marines, especially if people keep buying them like there is no tomorrow.
There's an argument to be made that Aggressors are more Primaris Cents than Terminators.
That's how I always saw it, but given the OP I wasn't sure if I had missed something or there was otherwise reason to believe Aggressors = Primaris Terminators.
Prinaris landraider and heavy weapon teams. Blood claws, thunderwolves, sanguary guard, terminators. Every named and unamed character. Jump pack primaris. Whirldwind primaris. All sorts of flyes primaris.
Drop Pods are a glaring hole I can't see them squatting without giving them to Prinaris. But it could literally just end up being the current drop pods working with Primaris. It isn't like the physical capacity being too small has ever stopped vehicle models before.
Tank conversion kits with tracks so I can stand looking at them?
Seriously though, there's a lot of character kits they could do to cover mobility options for each character type.
Keep that garbage out of The Veterans of the Long War.
We already know that the new CSM line isn't Primarisified. They released new CSM, Havocs, and Terminators recently, which fit with the design choices already established by Thousand Sons and Death Guard (and perhaps even Raptors, which could be seen as the first of the new Chaos line.) I think we can expect to see Cult Marines and Cult Terminators for World Eaters and Emperor's children, and likely more new undivided units like possessed, more daemon engines, and probably bikers, maybe even chosen.
The Chaos model line is going in a good direction, and I hope to see updates to it continue. Their problem is their rules.
Keep that garbage out of The Veterans of the Long War.
Abaddon wants a counter for Primaris, at the very least, and tasked Fabius Bile with coming up with one. On the basis that they're superior in every way that matters, even to the VotLW.
----
On the loyalist side
Primaris whirlwind seems superceded by the missile drop bunker.
Primaris coming out of drop pods are in the Indomitus novel (including modified drop pod for the Outrider bikes)
More characters are certainly coming. Truthfully, they can run this train all the way into the ground. I figured they would call a break on it, pause for breath, but they seem to be accelerating instead.
Keep that garbage out of The Veterans of the Long War.
Abaddon wants a counter for Primaris, at the very least, and tasked Fabius Bile with coming up with one. On the basis that they're superior in every way that matters, even to the VotLW.
Good for Abaddon. Give them to the Black Legion. Leave them out of the Legions so stuck in their ways that they won't even use daemons or swear fealty to the Chaos Gods. Give us rules to make our ancient veterans actually feel like ancient veterans. Please see csm 3.5 for reference.
On the loyalist side
Primaris whirlwind seems superceded by the missile drop bunker.
Primaris coming out of drop pods are in the Indomitus novel (including modified drop pod for the Outrider bikes)
More characters are certainly coming. Truthfully, they can run this train all the way into the ground. I figured they would call a break on it, pause for breath, but they seem to be accelerating instead.
I think you're right. The infuriating thing is that they're spending so much time and effort on it they are neglecting other armies to the point that they just stop supporting them with models and functional rules and then squat them when, SHOCK, no one seems to be interested in playing them.
And now they're removing models that they are still producing and selling from existing and fairly popular factions. Apparently it's too much effort to even update rules for other faction's units now.
Gadzilla666 wrote: And now they're removing models that they are still producing and selling from existing and fairly popular factions. Apparently it's too much effort to even update rules for other faction's units now.
What models? I think I've read something about the Defiler earlier today, but that one is still in the codex, and being sold... still...
Keep that garbage out of The Veterans of the Long War.
Abaddon wants a counter for Primaris, at the very least, and tasked Fabius Bile with coming up with one. On the basis that they're superior in every way that matters, even to the VotLW.
Good for Abaddon. Give them to the Black Legion. Leave them out of the Legions so stuck in their ways that they won't even use daemons or swear fealty to the Chaos Gods. Give us rules to make our ancient veterans actually feel like ancient veterans. Please see csm 3.5 for reference.
Yes, yes, 3.5 is some nice nostalgia and whatever, but you know very well that isn't how things work now. (And frankly I suspect the 3.5 rules would be very disappointing and sad in the current edition)
Whenever they get around to it, your only option is going to be to not take whatever new thing they throw out there.
Gadzilla666 wrote: And now they're removing models that they are still producing and selling from existing and fairly popular factions. Apparently it's too much effort to even update rules for other faction's units now.
What models? I think I've read something about the Defiler earlier today, but that one is still in the codex, and being sold... still...
The Hellforged Kharybdis doesn't have an entry in the new ca, despite the model still being available for purchase from Forge World.
As for the armies I mentioned, Renegades and Heretics as well as Elysian Drop Troops are gone as well.
Keep that garbage out of The Veterans of the Long War.
Abaddon wants a counter for Primaris, at the very least, and tasked Fabius Bile with coming up with one. On the basis that they're superior in every way that matters, even to the VotLW.
Good for Abaddon. Give them to the Black Legion. Leave them out of the Legions so stuck in their ways that they won't even use daemons or swear fealty to the Chaos Gods. Give us rules to make our ancient veterans actually feel like ancient veterans. Please see csm 3.5 for reference.
Yes, yes, 3.5 is some nice nostalgia and whatever, but you know very well that isn't how things work now. (And frankly I suspect the 3.5 rules would be very disappointing and sad in the current edition)
Whenever they get around to it, your only option is going to be to not take whatever new thing they throw out there.
Fine by me. I already refuse to run daemons, daemon engines, etc in my Night Lords, and I don't give them marks. But there is nothing stopping gw from bringing back things like veteran abilities.
Plenty of loyalist players won't play primaris either.
Keep that garbage out of The Veterans of the Long War.
Abaddon wants a counter for Primaris, at the very least, and tasked Fabius Bile with coming up with one. On the basis that they're superior in every way that matters, even to the VotLW.
Good for Abaddon. Give them to the Black Legion. Leave them out of the Legions so stuck in their ways that they won't even use daemons or swear fealty to the Chaos Gods. Give us rules to make our ancient veterans actually feel like ancient veterans. Please see csm 3.5 for reference.
Yes, yes, 3.5 is some nice nostalgia and whatever, but you know very well that isn't how things work now. (And frankly I suspect the 3.5 rules would be very disappointing and sad in the current edition)
Whenever they get around to it, your only option is going to be to not take whatever new thing they throw out there.
Fine by me. I already refuse to run daemons, daemon engines, etc in my Night Lords, and I don't give them marks. But there is nothing stopping gw from bringing back things like veteran abilities.
Plenty of loyalist players won't play primaris either.
Guilty of that, I absolutely don't like Primaris design (except for intercessors). I don't like the way they play (homogenous squads and just buckets o' gun). I've already made the decision that as soon as the firstborn are squatted out (going back and forth as to when/if its going to happen) that I'm out of the game OR I might become a renegade instead.
I really want nothing to do with Primaris on a fluff/looks/rules level - but GW is making it very hard to do (with the recent slap to Salamanders CT, and the addition of eradicators)
Keep that garbage out of The Veterans of the Long War.
Abaddon wants a counter for Primaris, at the very least, and tasked Fabius Bile with coming up with one. On the basis that they're superior in every way that matters, even to the VotLW.
Good for Abaddon. Give them to the Black Legion. Leave them out of the Legions so stuck in their ways that they won't even use daemons or swear fealty to the Chaos Gods. Give us rules to make our ancient veterans actually feel like ancient veterans. Please see csm 3.5 for reference.
Yes, yes, 3.5 is some nice nostalgia and whatever, but you know very well that isn't how things work now. (And frankly I suspect the 3.5 rules would be very disappointing and sad in the current edition)
Whenever they get around to it, your only option is going to be to not take whatever new thing they throw out there.
What are you talking about? The SM codex+supplements is the closest books have come to 3.5 in years. They spent multiple editions trying to structure things differently, and now have finally returned to where we started. It works slightly different now as you just get lots of traits and special rules, as opposed to paying pts per model, but its the same result: Lots of options, and lots of differences between subfactions.
So, I've got a bit of a theory, it's one I kinda suspected was the case and the previews we've seen so far have clinched it for me.
A Space Marine chapter is divided into companies. 1st company is the vetern company, 2nd-5th company are the battle companies, 6th and 7th are reserve battleline companies 8th is the reserve close support company 9th is the Reserve Fire Support company, and 10th is the scout/Vanguard Company.
Tradtionally poeople have built around a battle line company. the other companies are 1: boring as they consisted of 1-2 units tops. 2: couldn't exactly make a legal army out of (I suppose you could have taken a bike captain and build an army around bikes and assault marines but... that would have lacked much varity)
GW is giving us options that seem like they'll let us fill out armies based on these reserve companies.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Is the 10 Company rule even a thing in this glorious age of Warhammer 41k?
I thought the 1000 Marine limit was out the window?
Considering that once rare antigrav is now also wiedly available, for no reason at all, the flanderisation has long since started before....
I've not kept up on 41k fluff but my thought is that the Imperium was always able to make more advanced stuff than they did, but held back because they were already a match for the threats that were out there and their biggest fear was rebellion not invasion. The whole structure of the Imperium; the separation of the Navy and the Guard, the 1000 marine cap, the isolation of governors was all set up to prevent large scale rebellions, not to defend the Imperium from external threats.
The big ole rift has made it clear that the Imperium has to take the gloves off of the Space Marines and let them really go to war.
I'd even argue that the gloves were coming off once the Tyranid threat was clear, for the first time the Imperium faced an extinction-level threat larger and more dangerous than the potential for rebellion among its own military.
The Imperium held back? The empire that exterminautuses their own planets? And fields giant walkers with enough firepower to destroy entire cities? Really?
Gadzilla666 wrote: The Imperium held back? The empire that exterminautuses their own planets? And fields giant walkers with enough firepower to destroy entire cities? Really?
The empire that sends people to war in cardboard armor and WWI tanks and caps their elite forces at 1000 men each?
It's written into the fluff that the Imperium deliberately handicapped both the Imperial Army and the Marine Legions after the Heresy to prevent future rebellions. If the Imperium can suddenly field whole squads with plasma and melta (and better plasma/melta than before) not to mention hover tanks I think it's pretty clear they were holding back their full capabilities until the threat became so dire it was a question of use everything and risk rebellion or die.
Gadzilla666 wrote: And now they're removing models that they are still producing and selling from existing and fairly popular factions. Apparently it's too much effort to even update rules for other faction's units now.
What models? I think I've read something about the Defiler earlier today, but that one is still in the codex, and being sold... still...
The Hellforged Kharybdis doesn't have an entry in the new ca, despite the model still being available for purchase from Forge World.
As for the armies I mentioned, Renegades and Heretics as well as Elysian Drop Troops are gone as well.
These are forgeworld units/armies that have nothing to do with the design and production of plastic GW product lines. R&H have been out of production for quite some time now. Elysians too. This likely has more to do with how old the moulds were, and how few they sold.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Kharibdys go out of production either. But it’s omission from CA could just as easily be an error, that’s yet to be rectified.
But honestly, citing forgeworld armies being squatted as a symptom of GW making lots of Primaris is hyperbolic nonsense. It’s far more related to FW moving away from 40k product lines and towards specialist games, not to mention their upcoming Old World Warhammer line.
I really think the big thing missing is terminators. Gravis might have been intended to be the replacement, but most of their fans aren't having it. People love their walking tanks.
Gadzilla666 wrote: And now they're removing models that they are still producing and selling from existing and fairly popular factions. Apparently it's too much effort to even update rules for other faction's units now.
What models? I think I've read something about the Defiler earlier today, but that one is still in the codex, and being sold... still...
The Hellforged Kharybdis doesn't have an entry in the new ca, despite the model still being available for purchase from Forge World.
As for the armies I mentioned, Renegades and Heretics as well as Elysian Drop Troops are gone as well.
These are forgeworld units/armies that have nothing to do with the design and production of plastic GW product lines. R&H have been out of production for quite some time now. Elysians too. This likely has more to do with how old the moulds were, and how few they sold.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Kharibdys go out of production either. But it’s omission from CA could just as easily be an error, that’s yet to be rectified.
But honestly, citing forgeworld armies being squatted as a symptom of GW making lots of Primaris is hyperbolic nonsense. It’s far more related to FW moving away from 40k product lines and towards specialist games, not to mention their upcoming Old World Warhammer line.
And you would be correct, if GW didn't take over the ruleswriting for them during 8th edition.
Gadzilla666 wrote: And now they're removing models that they are still producing and selling from existing and fairly popular factions. Apparently it's too much effort to even update rules for other faction's units now.
What models? I think I've read something about the Defiler earlier today, but that one is still in the codex, and being sold... still...
The Hellforged Kharybdis doesn't have an entry in the new ca, despite the model still being available for purchase from Forge World.
As for the armies I mentioned, Renegades and Heretics as well as Elysian Drop Troops are gone as well.
These are forgeworld units/armies that have nothing to do with the design and production of plastic GW product lines. R&H have been out of production for quite some time now. Elysians too. This likely has more to do with how old the moulds were, and how few they sold.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Kharibdys go out of production either. But it’s omission from CA could just as easily be an error, that’s yet to be rectified.
But honestly, citing forgeworld armies being squatted as a symptom of GW making lots of Primaris is hyperbolic nonsense. It’s far more related to FW moving away from 40k product lines and towards specialist games, not to mention their upcoming Old World Warhammer line.
And you would be correct, if GW didn't take over the ruleswriting for them during 8th edition.
rules writing doesn't mean squat, GW's makes the model then the rules for the model. FW isn't exactly flooding us with primaris options, hell aside from the SH tank they've canceled the primaris options they did have.
What do you mean it's just another intercissor! HOW DARE THOU EVEN SUGGEST THIS HERESY.
Good luck finding something that marines don't have though.
I guess that's the reason why they are doing the whole primaris thing in the first place - they ran out of design space. Probably some time before they decided to have marines wear two suits of armor at once.
Most of the other tank types besides the Predator. Whirlwind and Vindicator mostly. Maybe they could make a version of the Impulsor that mounts the turret from the new Drop Bunker?
Between Hellblasters, Eradicators, and Eliminators, I think we have the Devastator types covered. Assault Intercessors cover Assault Marines without Jump Packs fairly well. I think Jump Pack close combat squads should be explored.
Otherwise, I don't really think there is much of anything else that needs to be covered. Maybe some form of Terminators, but their design space has been encroached on by the Bladeguard and Aggressors. The teleporting in thing is about the only thing missing.
The big two I see as actual holes in their lineup vs oldmarines are:
1) Fast assault unit to replace jump pack assault marines. You could probably literally put jump packs in assault intercessors and call that one good.
2) Gravis armor assault unit to replace TH/SS and Lightning Claw terminators. That is, if they're planning on replacing terminators. Seems to me that Gravis really doesn't still read as "this is a terminator" like the regular marines really still read as marines, but I guess it's GW's IP and they can nuke it if they want to.
I hope that Primaris will eventually be able wear Terminator Armour. And allowed in Landraiders. If Primarchs and First-Born can then Primaris should also.
Tygre wrote: I hope that Primaris will eventually be able wear Terminator Armour. And allowed in Landraiders. If Primarchs and First-Born can then Primaris should also.
Honestly if I were GW I probably wouldn't retire terminators. Or land raiders. They're good kits. Just declare that there's Primaris in there now.
I mean, it's already utterly BEYOND stupid that they're going down the route of these sacred relics like marine tanks and venerable dreadnoughts are just being pitched out by the loyalists like yesterday's jam, but it'd really truly be hilarious if they did that with the fuckin land raiders and terminator suits.
"ah yes, these priceless relics, each chapter only has a few. We must always cherish, protect and maintain them..."
The guy in charge of all the marines right now not only wrote their sacred book of tactics but holds nothing sacred. Bobby G does not give a feth if you held onto a dread for 10k years. He cares if its the most effective weapon for the war hes leading.
BlaxicanX wrote: Drop pods are such a iconic part of the marine faction that I'm actually surprised we haven't gotten a primaris equivalent yet.
What surprises me is how many of us readily accept that we need a primaris equivalent of the drop pod. The drop pod is a perfectly fine model and there's no reason it couldn't be used for primaris except for GW's artificially imposed restrictions as to what primaris can and can't ride in. Afterall, we have to get to re-purchase all our infantry, they might as well make us re-purchase all our vehicles too, right? They have us well-trained indeed.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Is the 10 Company rule even a thing in this glorious age of Warhammer 41k?
I thought the 1000 Marine limit was out the window?
Considering that once rare antigrav is now also wiedly available, for no reason at all, the flanderisation has long since started before....
Considering both of those pieces of fluff were absolutely fething slowed good gorram riddance. 1000 marines in a galaxy of trillions are literally irrelevant. The fact that they pretended otherwise is the single biggest flub of scale of conflict in the entire 40k universe.
Not being able to have ANY new technology was just stupid for a miniature based system. As dumb as you might find 'we made new hover tanks', the continuous litany of 'actually no, we've secretly had this the whole time!' or 'we just found the STC in a cave! what a coincidence!' was WAY dumber.
BlaxicanX wrote: Drop pods are such a iconic part of the marine faction that I'm actually surprised we haven't gotten a primaris equivalent yet.
What surprises me is how many of us readily accept that we need a primaris equivalent of the drop pod. The drop pod is a perfectly fine model and there's no reason it couldn't be used for primaris except for GW's artificially imposed restrictions as to what primaris can and can't ride in. Afterall, we have to get to re-purchase all our infantry, they might as well make us re-purchase all our vehicles too, right? They have us well-trained indeed.
Not enough ironhail stubbers on the drop pod, sorry.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Is the 10 Company rule even a thing in this glorious age of Warhammer 41k?
I thought the 1000 Marine limit was out the window?
Considering that once rare antigrav is now also wiedly available, for no reason at all, the flanderisation has long since started before....
Considering both of those pieces of fluff were absolutely fething slowed good gorram riddance. 1000 marines in a galaxy of trillions are literally irrelevant. The fact that they pretended otherwise is the single biggest flub of scale of conflict in the entire 40k universe.
Not being able to have ANY new technology was just stupid for a miniature based system. As dumb as you might find 'we made new hover tanks', the continuous litany of 'actually no, we've secretly had this the whole time!' or 'we just found the STC in a cave! what a coincidence!' was WAY dumber.
The lack of progress has always been a key component to the setting. Future technology combined with backwards thinking is the thing that has set 40k apart. It's where the meme of "Fly to a planet with a starship and attack them with a Chainsword" comes from.
ERJAK wrote: Not being able to have ANY new technology was just stupid for a miniature based system. As dumb as you might find 'we made new hover tanks', the continuous litany of 'actually no, we've secretly had this the whole time!' or 'we just found the STC in a cave! what a coincidence!' was WAY dumber.
What's wrong with "we've had it the whole time"? Unless we're supposed to believe that literally everything that exists in the background exists in model form and nothing more. Makes the galaxy seem awful small...
I would like to see an IF capable artillery vehicle.
The artillery platform should be a missile launcher, like the whirlwind. Tube Artillery isn't really ideal for modern space marine tactics and operations [and also would probably wind up with issues if mounted on a hovertank].
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Is the 10 Company rule even a thing in this glorious age of Warhammer 41k?
I thought the 1000 Marine limit was out the window?
Considering that once rare antigrav is now also wiedly available, for no reason at all, the flanderisation has long since started before....
Considering both of those pieces of fluff were absolutely fething slowed good gorram riddance. 1000 marines in a galaxy of trillions are literally irrelevant. The fact that they pretended otherwise is the single biggest flub of scale of conflict in the entire 40k universe.
Not being able to have ANY new technology was just stupid for a miniature based system. As dumb as you might find 'we made new hover tanks', the continuous litany of 'actually no, we've secretly had this the whole time!' or 'we just found the STC in a cave! what a coincidence!' was WAY dumber.
The lack of progress has always been a key component to the setting. Future technology combined with backwards thinking is the thing that has set 40k apart. It's where the meme of "Fly to a planet with a starship and attack them with a Chainsword" comes from.
There's a lot more than 1000 marines. The Marines are divided into units of Chapters of 1000 with Companies of 100 to deliberately cripple them as part of the breaking of the legions, so that no individual Marine organization would have the strength at it's disposal to conduct full planetary conquests on it's own terms without requiring support from the Imperial Guard to hold ground and manage the areas that are not the center of gravity.
This is actually fairly realistic. Such power structures have a backing in real life dictatorships, where various government arms and agencies are set at each other and deliberately crippled on their own or crippled by their competition so that they can't challenge the dictator in question.
It's also worth mention that in a combined arms Imperial operation, the Space Marines would be expeditionary forces at the operational center of gravity [tip of the spear], where there legitimately might only need to be 1000 of them, while the Imperial Guard both supports the Space Marines with their artillery and infantry at the critical point and spreads itself out to hold and make other attacks in less significant sectors, as well as to exploit breakthroughs once the Space Marines achieve them.
That said, I believe the 1000 marine chapter size is very much out the window. With Guilliman in power, as the person who by and large presided over the division in the first place and having a vested interest in restoring the relative power of the Space Marines, he has the ability to and motivation to un-do the breaking of the legions and permit chapters to maintain many more men under arms.
As for the whole technology question:
ERJAK wrote:
Not being able to have ANY new technology was just stupid for a miniature based system. As dumb as you might find 'we made new hover tanks', the continuous litany of 'actually no, we've secretly had this the whole time!' or 'we just found the STC in a cave! what a coincidence!' was WAY dumber.
I agree with this sentiment.
In fact, technology for the Imperium hasn't been stagnant, even in the pre-primaris lore.
Razorbacks and Immolators are the most prominent example of a legitimate new development. There were also a number of "improved Space Marine" projects in the lore over time, all of which previously failed, but eventually one would succeed.
Also, the Stormblade, Stormsword, Doomhammer, and Banehammer tanks which are all developments from the Shadowsword [usually as a result of the factory in question being authorized to make Shadowswords but not having the technical ability to produce the Volcano Cannon or wrecked Shadowswords with broken guns being brought back to more forward factories and refurbished without the ability to replace the gun.]
It is my opinion that the worst part of the Primaris lore is the fact that they decided to stick to the "everything must somehow have heritage to M30" with the program being a 10000 year old secret project with the hot pockets that are finally done.
Anyway, Primaris, I am kind of, Primaris fatigued, by all the Primaris releases of Primaris.
I really agree. I love Primaris, but man, there's so much. I'm more a collector and painter than player as of late and there better be a few years before we see another marine release after this.
But in regards to the topic I'd say Terminator equivalent, JP vets(let's be honest JP assault marines get out shined by VV) , a company champion, and a cheap transport for Gravis.
Tygre wrote: I hope that Primaris will eventually be able wear Terminator Armour. And allowed in Landraiders. If Primarchs and First-Born can then Primaris should also.
Honestly if I were GW I probably wouldn't retire terminators. Or land raiders. They're good kits. Just declare that there's Primaris in there now.
I mean, it's already utterly BEYOND stupid that they're going down the route of these sacred relics like marine tanks and venerable dreadnoughts are just being pitched out by the loyalists like yesterday's jam, but it'd really truly be hilarious if they did that with the fuckin land raiders and terminator suits.
"ah yes, these priceless relics, each chapter only has a few. We must always cherish, protect and maintain them..."
Insectum7 wrote: ^It's true, technology hasn't been completely stagnant.
But flying tanks are a step too far, imo.
In that case that step too far happened in the Rogue Trader!
The idea was that things weren’t supposed to be getting better ... absent emperor, no more angels (primarchs, great heroes) amongst humans lost and corrupted in the far reaches of space. The marines, once thuggish yoomies in power armor (rogue trader, think Traveller RPG active military maybe mercenary) turned saviors of the Imperium, cleansing worlds of corruption (cue the Inquisition, assassins, etc). Still, they ground it out as faith in the holy purpose of humankind buckled under the rift.
Now, flying tanks and two wounds tactikool restartes... meh.
Tygre wrote: I hope that Primaris will eventually be able wear Terminator Armour. And allowed in Landraiders. If Primarchs and First-Born can then Primaris should also.
Honestly if I were GW I probably wouldn't retire terminators. Or land raiders. They're good kits. Just declare that there's Primaris in there now.
I mean, it's already utterly BEYOND stupid that they're going down the route of these sacred relics like marine tanks and venerable dreadnoughts are just being pitched out by the loyalists like yesterday's jam, but it'd really truly be hilarious if they did that with the fuckin land raiders and terminator suits.
"ah yes, these priceless relics, each chapter only has a few. We must always cherish, protect and maintain them..."
"BOSS, NEW SHIPMENT A' GRAVY ARMAH JUST CAME IN!"
"I see - in that case then, yeet!"
Gotta disagree on Terminators. Proportions are absolutely terrible.
Wigum211 wrote: Must be nearly time to refresh the intercessor kit...
Truthfully?
I initially had thought that was what the Assault Intercessors would be. A refresh/add-on to the kit ala the Knight Warden and Canis Rex were. There's a lot of wiggle room in how they could do things without just flatout doing a whole new kit.
Wigum211 wrote: Must be nearly time to refresh the intercessor kit...
Truthfully?
I initially had thought that was what the Assault Intercessors would be. A refresh/add-on to the kit ala the Knight Warden and Canis Rex were. There's a lot of wiggle room in how they could do things without just flatout doing a whole new kit.
They could still do it that way. Make the $60 box the five-model box and put the melee upgrade frame in, and make people dig up starter-box models if they want the dynamic poses.
It wouldn't be that big of a jump in all likelihood.
The Knight started out at $140 for the Errant and Paladin alone...then went to $157 for the Warden, Gallant, Crusader, Errant, and Paladin.
Finally, Canis Rex/Preceptor(a small sprue) got added...and it stayed at $157. They just ditched the $140 kit last year after maintaining it as a Direct Only item.
I'd hazard a guess IF they were to go that route, we'd be looking at $65-$70, with some additional arms and legs that are keyed to the main Intercessor body.
Tygre wrote: I hope that Primaris will eventually be able wear Terminator Armour. And allowed in Landraiders. If Primarchs and First-Born can then Primaris should also.
Honestly if I were GW I probably wouldn't retire terminators. Or land raiders. They're good kits. Just declare that there's Primaris in there now.
I mean, it's already utterly BEYOND stupid that they're going down the route of these sacred relics like marine tanks and venerable dreadnoughts are just being pitched out by the loyalists like yesterday's jam, but it'd really truly be hilarious if they did that with the fuckin land raiders and terminator suits.
"ah yes, these priceless relics, each chapter only has a few. We must always cherish, protect and maintain them..."
"BOSS, NEW SHIPMENT A' GRAVY ARMAH JUST CAME IN!"
"I see - in that case then, yeet!"
Yes, that's entirely what's happening and not at all that as these priceless relics that are increasingly difficult to replicate and source are being damaged beyond repair by constant war they're being being replaced by new, more modern, more easily constructed hardware.
Nothing in the primaris ramge indicate that they are easy to construct. Not in any way more manageble than classic marines. I meam compare an impulsor to a rhino. Wich one would you rather try to repair?
Tygre wrote: I hope that Primaris will eventually be able wear Terminator Armour. And allowed in Landraiders. If Primarchs and First-Born can then Primaris should also.
Honestly if I were GW I probably wouldn't retire terminators. Or land raiders. They're good kits. Just declare that there's Primaris in there now.
I mean, it's already utterly BEYOND stupid that they're going down the route of these sacred relics like marine tanks and venerable dreadnoughts are just being pitched out by the loyalists like yesterday's jam, but it'd really truly be hilarious if they did that with the fuckin land raiders and terminator suits.
"ah yes, these priceless relics, each chapter only has a few. We must always cherish, protect and maintain them..."
"BOSS, NEW SHIPMENT A' GRAVY ARMAH JUST CAME IN!"
"I see - in that case then, yeet!"
Gotta disagree on Terminators. Proportions are absolutely terrible.
Tygre wrote: I hope that Primaris will eventually be able wear Terminator Armour. And allowed in Landraiders. If Primarchs and First-Born can then Primaris should also.
Honestly if I were GW I probably wouldn't retire terminators. Or land raiders. They're good kits. Just declare that there's Primaris in there now.
I mean, it's already utterly BEYOND stupid that they're going down the route of these sacred relics like marine tanks and venerable dreadnoughts are just being pitched out by the loyalists like yesterday's jam, but it'd really truly be hilarious if they did that with the fuckin land raiders and terminator suits.
"ah yes, these priceless relics, each chapter only has a few. We must always cherish, protect and maintain them..."
"BOSS, NEW SHIPMENT A' GRAVY ARMAH JUST CAME IN!"
"I see - in that case then, yeet!"
Yes, that's entirely what's happening and not at all that as these priceless relics that are increasingly difficult to replicate and source are being damaged beyond repair by constant war they're being being replaced by new, more modern, more easily constructed hardware.
Nosiree, it's definitely not that at all.
When it worked for the last 10000 years, and suddenly becomes an issue... yeah, that doesn't exactly make sense. With GW though... who knows?
The bigger problem is the scale difference between OldMarines and NewMarines: Primaris are simply too big for TDA. For the same reason we'll see new Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Deathwing Knights and all the other specialist Marines sooner or later: they are still an essential part of their chapters background, but the old armour is too small for Primaris Marines.
Oh, and GW obviously wanting to sell new models of course.
Tygre wrote: I hope that Primaris will eventually be able wear Terminator Armour. And allowed in Landraiders. If Primarchs and First-Born can then Primaris should also.
Honestly if I were GW I probably wouldn't retire terminators. Or land raiders. They're good kits. Just declare that there's Primaris in there now.
I mean, it's already utterly BEYOND stupid that they're going down the route of these sacred relics like marine tanks and venerable dreadnoughts are just being pitched out by the loyalists like yesterday's jam, but it'd really truly be hilarious if they did that with the fuckin land raiders and terminator suits.
"ah yes, these priceless relics, each chapter only has a few. We must always cherish, protect and maintain them..."
"BOSS, NEW SHIPMENT A' GRAVY ARMAH JUST CAME IN!"
"I see - in that case then, yeet!"
Gotta disagree on Terminators. Proportions are absolutely terrible.
Ah, like your opinions?
You're not seriously defending the Terminator models are you?
Tygre wrote: I hope that Primaris will eventually be able wear Terminator Armour. And allowed in Landraiders. If Primarchs and First-Born can then Primaris should also.
Honestly if I were GW I probably wouldn't retire terminators. Or land raiders. They're good kits. Just declare that there's Primaris in there now.
I mean, it's already utterly BEYOND stupid that they're going down the route of these sacred relics like marine tanks and venerable dreadnoughts are just being pitched out by the loyalists like yesterday's jam, but it'd really truly be hilarious if they did that with the fuckin land raiders and terminator suits.
"ah yes, these priceless relics, each chapter only has a few. We must always cherish, protect and maintain them..."
"BOSS, NEW SHIPMENT A' GRAVY ARMAH JUST CAME IN!"
"I see - in that case then, yeet!"
Gotta disagree on Terminators. Proportions are absolutely terrible.
Ah, like your opinions?
You're not seriously defending the Terminator models are you?
As general designs? Yes, the silhouette is a classic for a reason.
As something I'd want to wear or fight in? No.
Tygre wrote: I hope that Primaris will eventually be able wear Terminator Armour. And allowed in Landraiders. If Primarchs and First-Born can then Primaris should also.
Honestly if I were GW I probably wouldn't retire terminators. Or land raiders. They're good kits. Just declare that there's Primaris in there now.
I mean, it's already utterly BEYOND stupid that they're going down the route of these sacred relics like marine tanks and venerable dreadnoughts are just being pitched out by the loyalists like yesterday's jam, but it'd really truly be hilarious if they did that with the fuckin land raiders and terminator suits.
"ah yes, these priceless relics, each chapter only has a few. We must always cherish, protect and maintain them..."
"BOSS, NEW SHIPMENT A' GRAVY ARMAH JUST CAME IN!"
"I see - in that case then, yeet!"
Gotta disagree on Terminators. Proportions are absolutely terrible.
Ah, like your opinions?
You're not seriously defending the Terminator models are you?
As general designs? Yes, the silhouette is a classic for a reason.
As something I'd want to wear or fight in? No.
It's something you CAN'T wear or fight in. Not unless you can disconnect your arms and legs from your torso and have them functionally hover a foot away from your body.
Tygre wrote: I hope that Primaris will eventually be able wear Terminator Armour. And allowed in Landraiders. If Primarchs and First-Born can then Primaris should also.
Honestly if I were GW I probably wouldn't retire terminators. Or land raiders. They're good kits. Just declare that there's Primaris in there now.
I mean, it's already utterly BEYOND stupid that they're going down the route of these sacred relics like marine tanks and venerable dreadnoughts are just being pitched out by the loyalists like yesterday's jam, but it'd really truly be hilarious if they did that with the fuckin land raiders and terminator suits.
"ah yes, these priceless relics, each chapter only has a few. We must always cherish, protect and maintain them..."
"BOSS, NEW SHIPMENT A' GRAVY ARMAH JUST CAME IN!"
"I see - in that case then, yeet!"
Gotta disagree on Terminators. Proportions are absolutely terrible.
Ah, like your opinions?
You're not seriously defending the Terminator models are you?
As general designs? Yes, the silhouette is a classic for a reason.
As something I'd want to wear or fight in? No.
It's something you CAN'T wear or fight in. Not unless you can disconnect your arms and legs from your torso and have them functionally hover a foot away from your body.
I know I've seen a couple of cutaway diagrams for Terminator armour doing the rounds that shows that isn't the case, though I'll concede they're unofficial images.
It's something you CAN'T wear or fight in. Not unless you can disconnect your arms and legs from your torso and have them functionally hover a foot away from your body.
Believe me when I say almost nobody gives a single gak my man.
Tygre wrote: I hope that Primaris will eventually be able wear Terminator Armour. And allowed in Landraiders. If Primarchs and First-Born can then Primaris should also.
Honestly if I were GW I probably wouldn't retire terminators. Or land raiders. They're good kits. Just declare that there's Primaris in there now.
I mean, it's already utterly BEYOND stupid that they're going down the route of these sacred relics like marine tanks and venerable dreadnoughts are just being pitched out by the loyalists like yesterday's jam, but it'd really truly be hilarious if they did that with the fuckin land raiders and terminator suits.
"ah yes, these priceless relics, each chapter only has a few. We must always cherish, protect and maintain them..."
"BOSS, NEW SHIPMENT A' GRAVY ARMAH JUST CAME IN!"
"I see - in that case then, yeet!"
Gotta disagree on Terminators. Proportions are absolutely terrible.
Ah, like your opinions?
You're not seriously defending the Terminator models are you?
As general designs? Yes, the silhouette is a classic for a reason.
As something I'd want to wear or fight in? No.
It's something you CAN'T wear or fight in. Not unless you can disconnect your arms and legs from your torso and have them functionally hover a foot away from your body.
I know I've seen a couple of cutaway diagrams for Terminator armour doing the rounds that shows that isn't the case, though I'll concede they're unofficial images.
Primaris Champion
Jetpack and bike characters
Chapter specific units
drop pods
Air vehicles
Thunderfire/artillery piece
Whirlwhind/ vindicator
More dreadnoughts
Sternguard equivalent
Terminators and centurions
Jetpack marines
Land speeder
And most importantly they need more war gear options for characters and squads.
Tygre wrote: I hope that Primaris will eventually be able wear Terminator Armour. And allowed in Landraiders. If Primarchs and First-Born can then Primaris should also.
Honestly if I were GW I probably wouldn't retire terminators. Or land raiders. They're good kits. Just declare that there's Primaris in there now.
I mean, it's already utterly BEYOND stupid that they're going down the route of these sacred relics like marine tanks and venerable dreadnoughts are just being pitched out by the loyalists like yesterday's jam, but it'd really truly be hilarious if they did that with the fuckin land raiders and terminator suits.
"ah yes, these priceless relics, each chapter only has a few. We must always cherish, protect and maintain them..."
"BOSS, NEW SHIPMENT A' GRAVY ARMAH JUST CAME IN!"
"I see - in that case then, yeet!"
Yes, that's entirely what's happening and not at all that as these priceless relics that are increasingly difficult to replicate and source are being damaged beyond repair by constant war they're being being replaced by new, more modern, more easily constructed hardware.
Nosiree, it's definitely not that at all.
When it worked for the last 10000 years, and suddenly becomes an issue... yeah, that doesn't exactly make sense. With GW though... who knows?
Except it hasn't worked for the last 10k years. It's been the fluff for decades that Dreadnoughts and Terminator armor are so precious to Chapters that retrieving them to patch them back together are missions unto themselves and that the loss of even one machine/suit is a tragedy to be mourned as it's an irreplaceable relic of Chapter history. It's why the fact that the Unforgiven can field entire Companies of TDA are noteworthy amongst other Chapters, because while other Chapters' supplies dwindle, they seem to be able to replace those permanently lost.
So yes, more and more Chapters in the lore are growing more accepting of Primaris partly because they're bringing in newer, replaceable equipment.
And what exactly makes primaris equipment easier to replace? Are you actually saying anti-gravity technologie is easier to replace than treads? That would make an old bulldozer more advanced than a landspeeder.
Well if you ritualy destroy all thread producing facilities, and the only factories you have are those producing anti grav plates, then yes. The grav are easier to replace.
Karol wrote: Well if you ritualy destroy all thread producing facilities, and the only factories you have are those producing anti grav plates, then yes. The grav are easier to replace.
Any 20th century machine shop can repair treads. You might as well say anti-grav is easier to replace than wheels. So, no.
Which brings us back to the idea that the Imperium has been holding back technology and resources from the Marines out of fear of rebellion.
If you tell me Termi Armor is irreplaceable and priceless enough times I'll stop asking why you can't just take one and make copies. Until one day you remember you can...
Or it's just bad writing and Cawl is a deus ex machina that gives them an excuse to introduce new technology. It's always been said that terminator armour was still produced, just in low quantities. Even Fellblades are still being cranked out to the tune of one every five years. Not much in a empire of trillions, but still in production. The technology exists, it's just rare. Absolutely nothing would suggests an impulsor is easier to manufacture or repair than a rhino.
Or it's just bad writing and Cawl is a deus ex machina that gives them an excuse to introduce new technology. It's always been said that terminator armour was still produced, just in low quantities. Even Fellblades are still being cranked out to the tune of one every five years. Not much in a empire of trillions, but still in production. The technology exists, it's just rare. Absolutely nothing would suggests an impulsor is easier to manufacture or repair than a rhino.
On one hand, back when 40k was just a "setting" with a static timeline where everyday was essentially "Tuesday", the narrative of irreplaceable relics worked a lot better. You were frozen in time so you never really had to confront certain problems that "irreplaceable relics of war" actually create. The original story of the Ultramarines 1st Company sacrificing itself fighting the 'nids clearly labels the suits as something that couldn't be replaced. They've oh-so-slowly walked that back over the years, but it still creates a problem.
Now that we have a background where the story is actually advancing and there's a dynamic narrative at play, you have to change things up as you can only say "That Land Raider was an irreplaceable relic" so many times in a story that's always moving forward. So now they have to introduce new sources of supplies and men and tech, etc. So even that all makes sense to me. Where I start to have a issue is when we look at the fact that all the new stuff appears to be WAY more complicated and involved. What do field repairs on a Impulsor look like? Cawl can't be everywhere for crying out loud!
Also, he can invent Primaris, Anti-Grav tech, etc, but he can't produce new Land Raiders?!
Far as what the Primaris are missing - they need flyers. Although seeing what their tanks look like, I'm kind of dreading seeing the flyers ...
Probably quite a lot, surely several more units with slightly different armour part arrangements and weapons (including several more slightly different bolter variants) to add to the array of forgettable units already released. Perhaps some more hover vehicles that look like they have been rolled in a bits box?
Tycho wrote: Far as what the Primaris are missing - they need flyers. Although seeing what their tanks look like, I'm kind of dreading seeing the flyers ...
Yeah they could be pretty nasty or they could be like the flyers in the Tau codex and just be terrible. How I wanted the Tau flyers to be good but they always just don’t work very well.
Otherwise though the only thing they really need is jump pack units, a jump HQ and some fast attack jump melee.
. What do field repairs on a Impulsor look like? Cawl can't be everywhere for crying out loud!
According to War of Secrets, Greyshield Primaris were partially inducted into the Cult Mechanicus(they even go as far as to refer to the Emperor as the Omnissiah and call Cawl "Pater Cawl"), so it's understandable that they'd understand the basics of field repair.
According to War of Secrets, Greyshield Primaris were partially inducted into the Cult Mechanicus(they even go as far as to refer to the Emperor as the Omnissiah and call Cawl "Pater Cawl"), so it's understandable that they'd understand the basics of field repair.
My point being that if you have a busted track on a Rhino, it's a relatively easy fix. Even under fire. If the anti-grav on the impulsor goes - how do you fix that mid-battle? Is there some kind of combat jack to lift it so the giant Primaris marine can squeeze under it? lol
I wasn't suggesting they can't fix it. I was just pointing out that while I buy the reasons for getting new gear, I'm more than a little surprised the new gear is so much more complicated. Especially since Marines have always had their stuff built around "durable and easy to fix".
Except it hasn't worked for the last 10k years. It's been the fluff for decades that Dreadnoughts and Terminator armor are so precious to Chapters that retrieving them to patch them back together are missions unto themselves and that the loss of even one machine/suit is a tragedy to be mourned as it's an irreplaceable relic of Chapter history. It's why the fact that the Unforgiven can field entire Companies of TDA are noteworthy amongst other Chapters, because while other Chapters' supplies dwindle, they seem to be able to replace those permanently lost.
So yes, more and more Chapters in the lore are growing more accepting of Primaris partly because they're bringing in newer, replaceable equipment.
Irreplaceable relics of Chapter history, yes. Not that it can't be replaced at all, but the 'machine spirit' and the heroes its associated with make the armor (and weapons) priceless. Imperial logistics are kind of crap, yes, but its the history and veneration that matter here. Not that they can't make more terminator suits.
Gadzilla666 wrote: And what exactly makes primaris equipment easier to replace? Are you actually saying anti-gravity technologie is easier to replace than treads? That would make an old bulldozer more advanced than a landspeeder.
It only takes one component that nobody knows how to fix to render a piece of equipment irreplaceable. On a Terminator or Land Raider its probably the armor plate that's the actual issue, not much else in the Imperial arsenal has a 2+ save outside of Centurions and those are explained as using the same ceramite as normal power armor but in really thick ablative plates.
For a more "real world" example, take modern axe to a Bronze-age. Anyone who sees it can understand what it's supposed to do, the handle can be replaced, but it's entirely possible that a Bronze-age smith wouldn't even be able to sharpen it with the tools he has available.
Gadzilla666 wrote: And what exactly makes primaris equipment easier to replace? Are you actually saying anti-gravity technologie is easier to replace than treads? That would make an old bulldozer more advanced than a landspeeder.
It only takes one component that nobody knows how to fix to render a piece of equipment irreplaceable. On a Terminator or Land Raider its probably the armor plate that's the actual issue, not much else in the Imperial arsenal has a 2+ save outside of Centurions and those are explained as using the same ceramite as normal power armor but in really thick ablative plates.
For a more "real world" example, take modern axe to a Bronze-age. Anyone who sees it can understand what it's supposed to do, the handle can be replaced, but it's entirely possible that a Bronze-age smith wouldn't even be able to sharpen it with the tools he has available.
That's a good argument, but the fact remains that they do still make them. And I find it hard to believe that advanced armour plating is harder to produce than anti-grav technology. The argument isn't that stuff like land raiders and terminators aren't hard to make, it's whether or not they're harder to make than the new primaris stuff.
Which requires the more specialized tools and know-how; making a functional hand-cranked electrical generator or making a single standard-thread 3/4" bolt out of tungsten carbide? One looks more complicated but the other requires a significantly higher tech-base.
Yes, but we're not talking about an electrical generator. We're talking about anti-gravity technology. What kind of tech base do you think that would require? Especially when you need it to float a 70 ton tank. Or, in the case of the Astreus, a roughly 300 ton one. And that thing has a 2+ save, so you probably need some of that advanced armour plating there too. If it takes five years to make one Fellblade....
Gadzilla666 wrote: And what exactly makes primaris equipment easier to replace? Are you actually saying anti-gravity technologie is easier to replace than treads? That would make an old bulldozer more advanced than a landspeeder.
It only takes one component that nobody knows how to fix to render a piece of equipment irreplaceable. On a Terminator or Land Raider its probably the armor plate that's the actual issue, not much else in the Imperial arsenal has a 2+ save outside of Centurions and those are explained as using the same ceramite as normal power armor but in really thick ablative plates.
For a more "real world" example, take modern axe to a Bronze-age. Anyone who sees it can understand what it's supposed to do, the handle can be replaced, but it's entirely possible that a Bronze-age smith wouldn't even be able to sharpen it with the tools he has available.
You can resharpen a modern ax with a stone . It just takes a long time, around 2 hours for a spliting ax. the problems are the handles and the pins, if those break replacement with stuff made from other materials makes the ax heads wobbly and you go through a haft real fast. Like 2 years and you have to replace it.
Diamond filles for sharpening are great, but stone whetstones are still used.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Yes, but we're not talking about an electrical generator. We're talking about anti-gravity technology. What kind of tech base do you think that would require? Especially when you need it to float a 70 ton tank. Or, in the case of the Astreus, a roughly 300 ton one. And that thing has a 2+ save, so you probably need some of that advanced armour plating there too. If it takes five years to make one Fellblade....
And we have no idea how hard anti-gravity technology actually is because it's fictional. It could easily be something like GPS where the parts of the system aren't that complicated (it's just satellite radio beacons and a computer capable of doing triangulation fast enough) but you absolutely cannot build one without General Relativity because you'd never get the satellites in the right place without it. The Atomic bomb is a better one, it's just the right material inside a properly shaped explosion, but you need the science to tell you it's even possible before you'd think of trying to do it. One good advance in unified field theory could put anti-grav engines all over the place even though they look impossible now.
Ask someone from 1700 whether a model T or our hypothetical tungsten carbide bolt required the higher tech level and they'd probably answer incorrectly.
Gadzilla666 wrote: And what exactly makes primaris equipment easier to replace? Are you actually saying anti-gravity technologie is easier to replace than treads? That would make an old bulldozer more advanced than a landspeeder.
It only takes one component that nobody knows how to fix to render a piece of equipment irreplaceable. On a Terminator or Land Raider its probably the armor plate that's the actual issue, not much else in the Imperial arsenal has a 2+ save outside of Centurions and those are explained as using the same ceramite as normal power armor but in really thick ablative plates.
For a more "real world" example, take modern axe to a Bronze-age. Anyone who sees it can understand what it's supposed to do, the handle can be replaced, but it's entirely possible that a Bronze-age smith wouldn't even be able to sharpen it with the tools he has available.
You can resharpen a modern ax with a stone . It just takes a long time, around 2 hours for a spliting ax. the problems are the handles and the pins, if those break replacement with stuff made from other materials makes the ax heads wobbly and you go through a haft real fast. Like 2 years and you have to replace it.
Diamond filles for sharpening are great, but stone whetstones are still used.
Your average ax from the hardware store still has a wooden handle and a pressure wedge hammered into the end. We don't have to be talking about a high-end tool here.
And our hypothetical bronze-age weapon smith would be trying to sharpen an iron ax with a stone best suited to sharpening bronze. Which could be exactly the same type of stone for all I know, but that's kind of beside the point. The ax head is still irreplaceable, and there is some level of damage to that ax head that could not be repaired with the available tools.
Well it's apparently pretty hard to manufacture in the 40k universe, the Imperium could only maintain it on landspeaders and a few super rare jetbikes for Custodes and Dark Angels, while Chaos Marines had to give theirs up because they couldn't maintain them. All those Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, Spartans, Fellblades, and other tracked vehicles keep on trucking out there in The Eye though, so that kills the whole "primaris vehicles are easier to maintain" idea. Only Eldar and Tau could make heavy use of it up till now, and they've always been portrayed as having better tech than the Imperium.
Nah, if anti-grav was easier to produce than tracked vehicles then the Imperium would've used it on tanks long ago, and The Legions would still have theirs from the Heresy. Come to think of it, why didn't the Emperor ever do it if it was easy? Nope, sorry: Cawl = deus ex machina.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Well it's apparently pretty hard to manufacture in the 40k universe, the Imperium could only maintain it on landspeaders and a few super rare jetbikes for Custodes and Dark Angels, while Chaos Marines had to give theirs up because they couldn't maintain them. All those Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, Spartans, Fellblades, and other tracked vehicles keep on trucking out there in The Eye though, so that kills the whole "primaris vehicles are easier to maintain" idea. Only Eldar and Tau could make heavy use of it up till now, and they've always been portrayed as having better tech than the Imperium.
Nah, if anti-grav was easier to produce than tracked vehicles then the Imperium would've used it on tanks long ago, and The Legions would still have theirs from the Heresy. Come to think of it, why didn't the Emperor ever do it if it was easy? Nope, sorry: Cawl = deus ex machina.
Again, you've slipped the point. Nobody is saying that anti-grav is easier than tracked, the suggestion is that there are other systems in Terminators, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders that are harder than anti-grav once you have the science to do anti-grav at all, just like an Abraham Tank is harder to build than an Atomic Bomb once you know such a thing is possible.
Actually your argument doesn't even hold up internally because as you pointed out the Imperium does manage to maintain Land Speeders, Custodes Jetbikes and grav-tanks, and other grav vehicles here and there, but the fluff says Terminator suits and Dreadnaughts are practically irreplaceable. The Land Speeder isn't even supposed to be particularly rare, and they have floating Servo-skulls all over the place.
But isnt the IOM dogma on tech been limited to maintaing what exists becauses it 'perfect' and trying to update stuff is heresay against the daoc or whatever ancestors that were the peak of human know-wots
Cawls new toys might be more complicated but are most likely built to practical use rather than having lots of extra worthless bits that the half corrupted stc files deem essential, likewise the repair instructions are unlikely to include psalms, holy hammer prayers etc just pull plates x, rewire y, reboot power
Gadzilla666 wrote: Well it's apparently pretty hard to manufacture in the 40k universe, the Imperium could only maintain it on landspeaders and a few super rare jetbikes for Custodes and Dark Angels, while Chaos Marines had to give theirs up because they couldn't maintain them. All those Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, Spartans, Fellblades, and other tracked vehicles keep on trucking out there in The Eye though, so that kills the whole "primaris vehicles are easier to maintain" idea. Only Eldar and Tau could make heavy use of it up till now, and they've always been portrayed as having better tech than the Imperium.
Nah, if anti-grav was easier to produce than tracked vehicles then the Imperium would've used it on tanks long ago, and The Legions would still have theirs from the Heresy. Come to think of it, why didn't the Emperor ever do it if it was easy? Nope, sorry: Cawl = deus ex machina.
Again, you've slipped the point. Nobody is saying that anti-grav is easier than tracked, the suggestion is that there could be some other systems in Terminators, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders that are harder than anti-grav once you have the science to do anti-grav at all.
Actually your argument doesn't even hold up internally because as you pointed out the Imperium does manage to maintain Land Speeders, Custodes Jetbikes and grav-tanks, and other grav vehicles here and there, but the fluff says Terminator suits and Dreadnaughts are practically irreplaceable. The Land Speeder isn't even supposed to be particularly rare, and they have floating Servo-skulls all over the place.
No, it doesn't. The Imperium still produces both terminator armour and land raiders, just in small quantities. If anti-grav was easy to maintain then the Legions would still have theirs, but they don't, their terminators and tracked vehicles are still going though. And as I've already pointed out, the Imperium still produces Fellblades in small quantities, which are tougher than terminators or land raiders, so would require the same armour. And what exactly makes a redemptor easier to make than a box dread?
Turnip Jedi wrote: But isnt the IOM dogma on tech been limited to maintaing what exists becauses it 'perfect' and trying to update stuff is heresay against the daoc or whatever ancestors that were the peak of human know-wots
Cawls new toys might be more complicated but are most likely built to practical use rather than having lots of extra worthless bits that the half corrupted stc files deem essential, likewise the repair instructions are unlikely to include psalms, holy hammer prayers etc just pull plates x, rewire y, reboot power
It’s more that advancing tech beyond a certain point risks going too close to the whole men of iron scenario etc. Cawl isn’t exactly well liked among the Adeptus Mechanicus, he gets a lot of leeway because of his mandate from Guilliman.
The Grav tech in the Primaris tanks isn’t anywhere near as advanced as Land Speeder and jetbike tech, and certainly not as advanced as Eldar tech. It just about keeps the tank off the ground and crushes the ground as it moves along. It’s more akin to a hovercraft than a fast flying speeder etc.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Well it's apparently pretty hard to manufacture in the 40k universe, the Imperium could only maintain it on landspeaders and a few super rare jetbikes for Custodes and Dark Angels, while Chaos Marines had to give theirs up because they couldn't maintain them. All those Land Raiders, Rhinos, Predators, Spartans, Fellblades, and other tracked vehicles keep on trucking out there in The Eye though, so that kills the whole "primaris vehicles are easier to maintain" idea. Only Eldar and Tau could make heavy use of it up till now, and they've always been portrayed as having better tech than the Imperium.
Nah, if anti-grav was easier to produce than tracked vehicles then the Imperium would've used it on tanks long ago, and The Legions would still have theirs from the Heresy. Come to think of it, why didn't the Emperor ever do it if it was easy? Nope, sorry: Cawl = deus ex machina.
Again, you've slipped the point. Nobody is saying that anti-grav is easier than tracked, the suggestion is that there could be some other systems in Terminators, Dreadnoughts, and Land Raiders that are harder than anti-grav once you have the science to do anti-grav at all.
Actually your argument doesn't even hold up internally because as you pointed out the Imperium does manage to maintain Land Speeders, Custodes Jetbikes and grav-tanks, and other grav vehicles here and there, but the fluff says Terminator suits and Dreadnaughts are practically irreplaceable. The Land Speeder isn't even supposed to be particularly rare, and they have floating Servo-skulls all over the place.
No, it doesn't. The Imperium still produces both terminator armour and land raiders, just in small quantities. If anti-grav was easy to maintain then the Legions would still have theirs, but they don't, their terminators and tracked vehicles are still going though. And as I've already pointed out, the Imperium still produces Fellblades in small quantities, which are tougher than terminators or land raiders, so would require the same armour. And what exactly makes a redemptor easier to make than a box dread?
That's demonstrably not true, Centurions manage better conventional toughness than Terminators (force field not withstanding) using the same material as an ordinary suit of power armor. They just use a lot of the stuff.
All the Imperium producing small numbers of Terminators and Land Raiders means is that at the minimum that they still have a handful of functioning manufactorum engines that can produce whatever the critical component/refined material/Mcguffin is. Whether they just don't know how that engine does what it does to build more of them, or the Mechanicus guild that controls those engines doesn't want to share the knowledge so badly that they won't even make black-box units to sell, or the raw materials required are on worlds the Imperium no longer controls is an open question.
And on the other hand servitor skulls and cherubs are all over the place so contra-grav tech can't be that hard to maintain. The reasoning behind all the tracked vehicles is that they're super-cheap to maintain and require a vanishingly low tech base to produce so even worlds on the edge of being feral can produce them with a little help.
What's demonstrably wrong? That the Fellblade's armour is constructed from the same advanced plating as terminators and land raiders? From Imperial Armour:
The tank's armour is constructed of an advanced metal-plas alloy matched only by the armour utilized on the God-Machines of the Legio Titanica.
So, it is. Nothing says that terminators, land raiders, or any of the other older vehicles are any harder to produce than primaris vehicles and equipment. You're just theorizing that primaris equipment is more easily produced. The mechanicus still builds Titans and starships as well. There's no "mcguffin" involved, these things are just hard to mass produce, and given the limited amount needed to supply the roughly 1,000,000 loyalist marines they aren't produced in the same quantities as equipment for the Imperial Guard. And nothing says that primaris equipment is easier to maintain either, as I've pointed out before: if anti-grav was easier to maintain then the Legions would still have theirs. They don't, but their land raiders still work.
^To be fair, the quote appears to say Fellblade matches Terminator armor in terms of performance, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the same armor tech.
When Cawl finally finds the old envelope he scrawled the notes for the final half of the last geneseed implant meant for them on and we get Alpha Primaris marines.
Or maybe when the last two mprimarchs are revealed to have been primaris primarchs and they'e been hidden for 10,000 yeas because an eldar told the emperor they would be needed when the galaxy split open, so they've been asleep for the history of the game while primaris primarch geneseed was being cultivated from their cells.
Gadzilla666 wrote: What's demonstrably wrong? That the Fellblade's armour is constructed from the same advanced plating as terminators and land raiders? From Imperial Armour:
The tank's armour is constructed of an advanced metal-plas alloy matched only by the armour utilized on the God-Machines of the Legio Titanica.
So, it is. Nothing says that terminators, land raiders, or any of the other older vehicles are any harder to produce than primaris vehicles and equipment. You're just theorizing that primaris equipment is more easily produced. The mechanicus still builds Titans and starships as well. There's no "mcguffin" involved, these things are just hard to mass produce, and given the limited amount needed to supply the roughly 1,000,000 loyalist marines they aren't produced in the same quantities as equipment for the Imperial Guard. And nothing says that primaris equipment is easier to maintain either, as I've pointed out before: if anti-grav was easier to maintain then the Legions would still have theirs. They don't, but their land raiders still work.
We've wondered far enough off thread. Later.
Insectum7 wrote: ^To be fair, the quote appears to say Fellblade matches Terminator armor in terms of performance, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the same armor tech.
Basically what Insectum said.
You're right, we've wandered a long way off topic and I am speculating. It's an interesting side track, the question of how hard it would be for us with 21st century understanding of physics to even make appropriate real-world comparisons to fictional technology is the kind of debate I don't get to have often enough. And to be clear, that is the head-space I'm occupying a the moment. The question of whether a Land Raider ought to be a rare and precious relic when Repulsors are being handed out like candy is a lot less interesting than the question of how sure anyone can be of their answer.
Lance845 wrote: Ok, so we have 3 versions of a tank, a transport, melee, terminators, special weapons and stock troopers, scouts, bikes, dreads, a speeder (though one with wheels), a variety of characters, tech marine, chaplain, apothecary, librarian, standard bearer and some new characters to boot.
Some named characters have gotten the primaris treatment, others are going to be on the way (you all know it).
So besides a gunship, what else is left for primaris to have everything and old marines to get squatted?
They have more captains and such than you can shake a beatstick at.
I'd guess not all characters are going to cross the Rubicon Primaris. Some will be killed in story, and replaced. Vulkan not crossing is either teasing that (A son of the Perpetual Primarch not crossing?) or just an excuse to give Salamanders a second character But then, why a captain? Perhaps Vulkan is going to ascend to Chapter Master. Still something is going on.
Flyers, assault with jetpacks, and maybe a new dreadnought because two is not enough.
They have the Flyers. The Inceptors are- if you can twist your head around it - Land Speeders. They still need Aircraft - Stormtalon/Stormraven equivalents. The fighter/bomber and the bomber/transport role.
Do they have Command squads? But do they actually need that?
They do now. Bladeguard are the command squad. Medics/Apothecaries and champions etc were already split out of the old school command squads. Bladeguard + Bladeguard X's and Y's + Primaris Apothecary = Command Squad of old.
I don't think Old Marines getting squatted will depend on Primaris Marines achieving some benchmark on units/models available.
It'll more likely be a function of store logistics, old-marine sales numbers, convenience of timing (change from 9th to 10 edition? Or 10th to 11th?), etc..
It'll be both. They're almost certainly releasing the new kits based on the condition of the old molds with some weighting for fleshing out options.
What haven't Primaris units already duplicated from old Marines?
As near as I can tell most of the Rhino Hull variants can be found in the Impulsor. Cents and Aggressors are fairly overlapping. The Thunderfire has been in and out of the Marine lineup in some form or another so is likely not a top priority.
We've seen the speeder coming, you then have the drop whirlwind bunker thing, gun turret.
still "need" a drop pod, flyer, terminator equivalent (so Gravis with teleport capabilities), jump pack assault, hmm that's about it.
Drop Pod is one. On teleporting Termies, I'm hoping they continue the fluffy offscreen machinations they did with Jump Packs dropping from an unseen Thunderhawk. Just give any squad (The fluff doesn't limit teleportation to Terminators) the ability to buy a teleport homer/signal/widget that's used to teleport that squad.
No. Primaris. In. Chaos Space Marines.
Keep that garbage out of The Veterans of the Long War.
Black Library has already all but "admitted" Cawl has already made Traitor Legion Primaris in secret and against Guilliman's wishes. That's going to be the hook to get them over into the Chaos Legions. Either the Thousand Sons marines call out to Magnus psychically, or Fabius Bile does some reverse engineering and/or a raid on Mars yadda yadda yadda.
From a Game standpoint the biggest hole in the Primaris line right now is mobility. They have next to no Deep Strike. No Aircraft Gun Platforms or Rapid Redeployment. They don't have a cheap 11-12 model ground transport. (10 squad + character) If they bring the rules back to encourage Rhino Rush there wouldn't be a Primaris Rhino to Rush. The Rhino itself is ironically the only Rhino Hull variant the Impulsor doesn't cross over at all. It starts as a Razorback, Bellicatus can do Whirlwind and Hunter, Ironhail skytalon does the Stalker. The Orbital Comms does a little of the Vindicator's job and will need a few rounds of rules update to fully gel - all the Orbital Strike mechanics need a boost/tweak for Fortifications, Superheavies and the like. If the giant space laser can hit a ratling sniper half the time, I would assume it can do much better against the 3 story fortress that takes up an entire city block.
Cawl can't be everywhere for crying out loud!
