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Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 13:14:29


Post by: Totto


So, Space marines are now getting more and more units with Custodes-like stat lines and in the case of Bladeguards even better saves than most Custodes. At the same time they are cheaper than Custodes.

Am I wrong in thinking that they are now superior to the custodes? Not to mention all the reroll mechanics space marines have.

I remember reading that a Custodes was to a space marine as a space marine is to a guardsman, i guess that is no longer true.

Consider the following around 1K lists and the new missions:

Custodes Patrol Detachment:
Shield Captain on jetbike
Custodian Guard squad (3 models)
Allarus Custodians squad (3 models)
Vexillus Praetor
Vertus Praetors (3 bikes)

All in all 11 models (7 inf, 4 bikes)

Space Marines (and bear with me here, i'm not a SM player)
Patrol Detachment 1
Primaris Captain
Intercessor Squad(5 models)
Aggressor squad (3 models)
Outrider Squad (3 models)
Eradicator Squad (3 models)

Patrol Detachment 2
Primaris Chaplain
Scout Squad (5 models)
Bladeguard Veteran Squad (3 models)
Eradicator Squad (3 models)

All in all 26 models(23 inf and 3 bikes) of which 15 have Custodes-like stats?

My bet on who is winning that mission is on the SM.





Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 13:27:05


Post by: Galas


Those Primaris Bikers feel a little wrong compared with Adeptus Custodes bikers. They have more attacks on the charge and the same wounds. Ok, less toughtness, armor and worse weapons but...


Sadly I accept that GW has backtracked on having an army "thematically" better than Space Marines. The thing with Custodes vs Primaris Marines is that Custodes actually pay for their stats of being super elite. Primaris always receive them at a discount.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 13:27:21


Post by: harlokin


Totto wrote:
I remember reading that a Custodes was to a space marine as a space marine is to a guardsman, i guess that is no longer true.


I don't play either, but I remember reading that the Custodes are superior individually, but en masse the Astartes have the edge due to their instinctual cooperation. There's enough variation in the fiction to cover any state of affairs in the rules.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 13:27:37


Post by: Dudeface


Totto wrote:
So, Space marines are now getting more and more units with Custodes-like stat lines and in the case of Bladeguards even better saves than most Custodes. At the same time they are cheaper than Custodes.

Am I wrong in thinking that they are now superior to the custodes? Not to mention all the reroll mechanics space marines have.

I remember reading that a Custodes was to a space marine as a space marine is to a guardsman, i guess that is no longer true.

Consider the following around 1K lists and the new missions:

Custodes Patrol Detachment:
Shield Captain on jetbike
Custodian Guard squad (3 models)
Allarus Custodians squad (3 models)
Vexillus Praetor
Vertus Praetors (3 bikes)

All in all 11 models (7 inf, 4 bikes)

Space Marines (and bear with me here, i'm not a SM player)
Patrol Detachment 1
Primaris Captain
Intercessor Squad(5 models)
Aggressor squad (3 models)
Outrider Squad (3 models)
Eradicator Squad (3 models)

Patrol Detachment 2
Primaris Chaplain
Scout Squad (5 models)
Bladeguard Veteran Squad (3 models)
Eradicator Squad (3 models)

All in all 26 models(23 inf and 3 bikes) of which 15 have Custodes-like stats?

My bet on who is winning that mission is on the SM.



You've taken CP off the marines with an unnecessary 2nd patrol. Scouts are moving to elites. Custodes are an innately s5 t5 2+/4++ army, marines are nowhere near that.

Comparing bladeguard (elites) to a unit of custodes troops seems most reasonable, 42 points extra gets you d2 ap -1 bolters, so out range and out damage the blade guard outside of melee. Melee threat the custodes hit 1 strength harder for d3 damage rather than d2. The big changes are custodes are t5 so more durable to small arms from the marines, they're all 2+/4++ which only the elite melee units for marines are and they hit on 2's with everything where as the marines hit on 3's.

Giving the marines the advantage, the custodes stand there get shot, 0 wounds done, marines charge, 13 attacks, 8 hit, 4 wound, 2 go through, kill a custode.

Other way round, custodes rapid fire, 6 shots, 1 dead marine, they charge, 9 attacks, a little under 8 hit, 5 wound, 2.5 go through, odds are the unit is wiped.

Nothing else has "custodes style stat lines" in that list.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 13:33:25


Post by: Audustum


Dudeface wrote:
Totto wrote:
So, Space marines are now getting more and more units with Custodes-like stat lines and in the case of Bladeguards even better saves than most Custodes. At the same time they are cheaper than Custodes.

Am I wrong in thinking that they are now superior to the custodes? Not to mention all the reroll mechanics space marines have.

I remember reading that a Custodes was to a space marine as a space marine is to a guardsman, i guess that is no longer true.

Consider the following around 1K lists and the new missions:

Custodes Patrol Detachment:
Shield Captain on jetbike
Custodian Guard squad (3 models)
Allarus Custodians squad (3 models)
Vexillus Praetor
Vertus Praetors (3 bikes)

All in all 11 models (7 inf, 4 bikes)

Space Marines (and bear with me here, i'm not a SM player)
Patrol Detachment 1
Primaris Captain
Intercessor Squad(5 models)
Aggressor squad (3 models)
Outrider Squad (3 models)
Eradicator Squad (3 models)

Patrol Detachment 2
Primaris Chaplain
Scout Squad (5 models)
Bladeguard Veteran Squad (3 models)
Eradicator Squad (3 models)

All in all 26 models(23 inf and 3 bikes) of which 15 have Custodes-like stats?

My bet on who is winning that mission is on the SM.



You've taken CP off the marines with an unnecessary 2nd patrol. Scouts are moving to elites. Custodes are an innately s5 t5 2+/4++ army, marines are nowhere near that.

Comparing bladeguard (elites) to a unit of custodes troops seems most reasonable, 42 points extra gets you d2 ap -1 bolters, so out range and out damage the blade guard outside of melee. Melee threat the custodes hit 1 strength harder for d3 damage rather than d2. The big changes are custodes are t5 so more durable to small arms from the marines, they're all 2+/4++ which only the elite melee units for marines are and they hit on 2's with everything where as the marines hit on 3's.

Giving the marines the advantage, the custodes stand there get shot, 0 wounds done, marines charge, 13 attacks, 8 hit, 4 wound, 2 go through, kill a custode.

Other way round, custodes rapid fire, 6 shots, 1 dead marine, they charge, 9 attacks, a little under 8 hit, 5 wound, 2.5 go through, odds are the unit is wiped.

Nothing else has "custodes style stat lines" in that list.


It's a weird match-up. Yeah, one unit of Custodian Guard probably take down one unit of Space Marines. That said, the Space Marines perform vastly superior overall due to their access to Psychic Powers (Custodes have none, Sisters of Silence need a boost on their aura range or to be more durable than T3 1W to work), Bolter Discipline and Shock Assault or whatever it's called now.

Anyway, the only thing that seemed a little egregious to me was their new bikes, which I think either need to cost more or our bikes need to cost less.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 13:40:56


Post by: Spoletta


There is actually a post on reddit with a good analysis between regular SM bikers and Outriders, which shows that all in all they are about balanced. Bikers have slightly better defensive stats and better shooting (per point), outriders have better melee.

The problem of the outriders is that they come too close to tank stats with T5 4W, so they start getting into the territory where I gladly shoot them with AT weapons, while lacking an invul save like the one the custodes have.


If you want something that is OP to what OP is to normal datasheets, then look at eradicators. Those things are scatbike level.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 13:47:18


Post by: catbarf


Bladeguard Veterans are better than Bullgryns in nearly every way while still being cheaper, and those are one of the better units in the AM codex.

Custodes not stacking up favorably against new Marines is a reflection of Marines generally punching above their cost. They're not as good as Custodes on an individual level, but they're sufficiently cheaper to more than make up the difference. Case in point:

Dudeface wrote:
Comparing bladeguard (elites) to a unit of custodes troops seems most reasonable, 42 points extra gets you d2 ap -1 bolters, so out range and out damage the blade guard outside of melee. Melee threat the custodes hit 1 strength harder for d3 damage rather than d2. The big changes are custodes are t5 so more durable to small arms from the marines, they're all 2+/4++ which only the elite melee units for marines are and they hit on 2's with everything where as the marines hit on 3's.

Giving the marines the advantage, the custodes stand there get shot, 0 wounds done, marines charge, 13 attacks, 8 hit, 4 wound, 2 go through, kill a custode.

Other way round, custodes rapid fire, 6 shots, 1 dead marine, they charge, 9 attacks, a little under 8 hit, 5 wound, 2.5 go through, odds are the unit is wiped.


Bladeguard Vets are 35ppm, Custodian Guard with Guardian Spears are 49ppm. Two Custodians are nearly the same cost as three Bladeguard.

My math says if 3 Bladeguard get to strike first, they shoot for 0.44 wounds, then charge and inflict another 4 wounds, for 74% damage inflicted.

2 Custodes shoot for 1.11 wounds, then charge and inflict another 3.33 wounds, for 49% damage inflicted.

The Custodes have the better shooting, but point-for-point the Bladeguard Vets take more damage and dish more out in melee.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 13:59:47


Post by: Amishprn86


 Galas wrote:
Those Primaris Bikers feel a little wrong compared with Adeptus Custodes bikers. They have more attacks on the charge and the same wounds. Ok, less toughtness, armor and worse weapons but...


Sadly I accept that GW has backtracked on having an army "thematically" better than Space Marines. The thing with Custodes vs Primaris Marines is that Custodes actually pay for their stats of being super elite. Primaris always receive them at a discount.


Nah, Custodes bikers still feel much more elite for sure. Yeah Outriders has more attack, but they are more belt for anti-horde in melee on the charge. Praetors has more anti-infantry guns and elite melee, they are more like Shiny Spears.

Not only are they +1T and +1str base, but also has a 4++, their weapon gives them an additional +1str and D3, also everything hits on 2+. Honestly, Outriders are not really all that good if you compare them Point for points to Marine bikers and Scout Bikers.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 14:12:25


Post by: Ice_can


The biggest issue is alot of the new primaris stuff is a little undercosted on its own add in the undercosted buff auras and they blow balance out of the water.

While the Outriders don't seem that broken compaired to bikers the issue is 4W quickly renders a lot of weapons horrendously inefficient against them.

More importantly it's yet also another viable unit that has design space cross over with a number of units from other codex's that pay the same or more points for lesser statlines. Many xeno players are frankly fed up watching GW undervalue statlines on marines while charging them premiums for their stats


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 14:20:44


Post by: catbarf


Spoletta wrote:
There is actually a post on reddit with a good analysis between regular SM bikers and Outriders, which shows that all in all they are about balanced. Bikers have slightly better defensive stats and better shooting (per point), outriders have better melee.


If you mean this thread, the general conclusion is that there's not much reason to take regular Bikers anymore. Outriders are tougher, better in melee, don't have to worry about Blast or Morale. They only lose out in shooting and resilience to anti-tank weapons, but if your opponent is putting lascannons into 45pt models, you're already winning. It's not a hard decision; any biker-heavy White Scars army is going to prefer Outriders unless they're planning on shenanigans involving meltaguns.

Again, not Custodes-tier, but overperforming for the cost even against models within the same codex, let alone other codices.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 14:28:03


Post by: the_scotsman


Yeah, bladeguard make custodes look like a joke.

Custodes get:

1 (1) bolt shot at 12" range.
1 point of toughness
1 point of strength (S5 to S6, arguably the single least important S shift in the game)

Bladeguard get:

Shock assault (Lol, just a casual 25% damage increase)
Flat damage 2 vs D3
A marine level chapter tactic
Access to a 100pt transport that can carry fething 6 of them and can move 14" with fly and drop them off after moving so they can charge O.O

6 bladeguard fit in an impulsor
4 custodes fit in a fething land raider

Oh also casually 35pts for bladeguard vs 49 for custodes, LOL.

Make any of that make sense.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 14:39:01


Post by: The Newman


A unit disembarking from an Impulsor after it moves cannot charge.

Also, the Custodes Bolter shot is D2.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 14:40:43


Post by: the_scotsman


The Newman wrote:
A unit disembarking from an Impulsor after it moves cannot charge.


Well that's good at least. Still a ridiculously OP combination. An impulsor flies up onto a midboard objective with 2x bladeguard squads inside: the feth are you supposed to do against that as an opponent? Compare them to Custodes, Wraithguard, MANZ, any similar unit and they just blow them the feth out of the water with how crazy they are.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 14:43:26


Post by: Lemondish


Spoletta wrote:
There is actually a post on reddit with a good analysis between regular SM bikers and Outriders, which shows that all in all they are about balanced. Bikers have slightly better defensive stats and better shooting (per point), outriders have better melee.

The problem of the outriders is that they come too close to tank stats with T5 4W, so they start getting into the territory where I gladly shoot them with AT weapons, while lacking an invul save like the one the custodes have.


They may not have a permanent invuln save, but they do have access to one for the turns in which they will be facing your fire. It's just a pity that right now the Outriders are in such a small unit. I'd love bigger bike units, even if it's just 5 to 6 total. I also wonder if, like the attack bike, an Invader ATV can join a bike squad.



Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 14:48:39


Post by: Galas


I actually agree that normal space marine bikers are just better than Outriders. They are basically the same point per point... but bikers can take specials.

Actually, I have always believed that space marine bikers were "better" intercessors, the things that made them worse was the problems with bikes and ruins and intercessors being troops for CP generation. With both of those things fixed, I believe space marine bikers are quite better than Intercessors, and thats something because we all know how good intercessors are.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 14:49:14


Post by: the_scotsman


Wraithblades:

If you go with the variant that gets the same number of attacks the Bladeguard get, you get a unit thats:

1) got damage 1 instead of damage 2!
2) got 3+ sv no invuln instead of 2+ 4++!
3) got move 5" instead of move 6"!
4) Hits on 3s instead of hits on 2s!
5) costs 5 points more!
6) Gets +1T, hooray, such balance!

And if you take the Axes, you get a unit with:

1) 1 fewer attack!
2) hits on 4s instead of hits on 2s!
3) 3+sv instead of 2+sv!
4) Move 5" instead of Move 6"!
5) D3 damage instead of Flat 2 Damage!
6) Costs 5ppm more!
7) +1T and +2S - hooray, such balance!

And remember folks: People are currently talking about wraiths as one of the single best units Eldar has going into 9th edition. This is the MOST COMPETITIVE THEYVE GOT going against these clownguard.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 15:20:16


Post by: Blood Hawk


the_scotsman wrote:
Wraithblades:

If you go with the variant that gets the same number of attacks the Bladeguard get, you get a unit thats:

1) got damage 1 instead of damage 2!
2) got 3+ sv no invuln instead of 2+ 4++!
3) got move 5" instead of move 6"!
4) Hits on 3s instead of hits on 2s!
5) costs 5 points more!
6) Gets +1T, hooray, such balance!

And if you take the Axes, you get a unit with:

1) 1 fewer attack!
2) hits on 4s instead of hits on 2s!
3) 3+sv instead of 2+sv!
4) Move 5" instead of Move 6"!
5) D3 damage instead of Flat 2 Damage!
6) Costs 5ppm more!
7) +1T and +2S - hooray, such balance!

And remember folks: People are currently talking about wraiths as one of the single best units Eldar has going into 9th edition. This is the MOST COMPETITIVE THEYVE GOT going against these clownguard.

A few things here: Wraithblades are +2T over bladeguard not +1T and bladeguard only hit on 2s with the ancient near by who is more expensive than two bladeguard. The ancient in addition is terrible in melee and is only armed with a pistol. He is the worst model in the box IMO.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 15:24:30


Post by: the_scotsman


 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Wraithblades:

If you go with the variant that gets the same number of attacks the Bladeguard get, you get a unit thats:

1) got damage 1 instead of damage 2!
2) got 3+ sv no invuln instead of 2+ 4++!
3) got move 5" instead of move 6"!
4) Hits on 3s instead of hits on 2s!
5) costs 5 points more!
6) Gets +1T, hooray, such balance!

And if you take the Axes, you get a unit with:

1) 1 fewer attack!
2) hits on 4s instead of hits on 2s!
3) 3+sv instead of 2+sv!
4) Move 5" instead of Move 6"!
5) D3 damage instead of Flat 2 Damage!
6) Costs 5ppm more!
7) +1T and +2S - hooray, such balance!

And remember folks: People are currently talking about wraiths as one of the single best units Eldar has going into 9th edition. This is the MOST COMPETITIVE THEYVE GOT going against these clownguard.

A few things here: Wraithblades are +2T over bladeguard not +1T and bladeguard only hit on 2s with the ancient near by who is more expensive than two bladeguard. The ancient in addition is terrible in melee and is only armed with a pistol. He is the worst model in the box IMO.


Sure.

Does this make Bladeguard not have the best of both variants of Wraithguard (the attacks of a sword WG, the damage from the axe WG, and the invuln from the axe WG) for 5ppm less?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 15:26:16


Post by: Dudeface


 catbarf wrote:
Bladeguard Veterans are better than Bullgryns in nearly every way while still being cheaper, and those are one of the better units in the AM codex.

Custodes not stacking up favorably against new Marines is a reflection of Marines generally punching above their cost. They're not as good as Custodes on an individual level, but they're sufficiently cheaper to more than make up the difference. Case in point:

Dudeface wrote:
Comparing bladeguard (elites) to a unit of custodes troops seems most reasonable, 42 points extra gets you d2 ap -1 bolters, so out range and out damage the blade guard outside of melee. Melee threat the custodes hit 1 strength harder for d3 damage rather than d2. The big changes are custodes are t5 so more durable to small arms from the marines, they're all 2+/4++ which only the elite melee units for marines are and they hit on 2's with everything where as the marines hit on 3's.

Giving the marines the advantage, the custodes stand there get shot, 0 wounds done, marines charge, 13 attacks, 8 hit, 4 wound, 2 go through, kill a custode.

Other way round, custodes rapid fire, 6 shots, 1 dead marine, they charge, 9 attacks, a little under 8 hit, 5 wound, 2.5 go through, odds are the unit is wiped.


Bladeguard Vets are 35ppm, Custodian Guard with Guardian Spears are 49ppm. Two Custodians are nearly the same cost as three Bladeguard.

My math says if 3 Bladeguard get to strike first, they shoot for 0.44 wounds, then charge and inflict another 4 wounds, for 74% damage inflicted.

2 Custodes shoot for 1.11 wounds, then charge and inflict another 3.33 wounds, for 49% damage inflicted.

The Custodes have the better shooting, but point-for-point the Bladeguard Vets take more damage and dish more out in melee.


Custodes are 3 wounds, because they're d2 weapons you lose the 4th wound in melee unless you got lucky with that pistol. Likewise I have custodes doing 5 damage in melee (9 attacks, 7.5 hit (hitting on 2's), 5 wounds (wound on 3's), 2.5 go through at 2 damage a piece (is an average) is 5 wounds done. Custodes win hands down.

Edit: Oh I see you used 2 custodes, your better off running more bladeguard, since 2 custodes isn't a legal unit but either way equal points perform reasonably equally, which ins't shocking.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 15:32:23


Post by: Trickstick


I got interested when reading the title, as the first word made me think of the Leman Russ variant.

It's never the Leman Russ variant...


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 15:32:38


Post by: Insectum7


 Galas wrote:
I actually agree that normal space marine bikers are just better than Outriders. They are basically the same point per point... but bikers can take specials.

Actually, I have always believed that space marine bikers were "better" intercessors, the things that made them worse was the problems with bikes and ruins and intercessors being troops for CP generation. With both of those things fixed, I believe space marine bikers are quite better than Intercessors, and thats something because we all know how good intercessors are.
Aye, the capacity for Specials is crucial for the Bikes.

Also amusing is the Atrack Bike has the exact statline of Outriders.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 15:33:31


Post by: Totto


So which of the two forces in the OP do you think would win a 9th mission easiest?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 15:33:56


Post by: Blood Hawk


the_scotsman wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Wraithblades:

If you go with the variant that gets the same number of attacks the Bladeguard get, you get a unit thats:

1) got damage 1 instead of damage 2!
2) got 3+ sv no invuln instead of 2+ 4++!
3) got move 5" instead of move 6"!
4) Hits on 3s instead of hits on 2s!
5) costs 5 points more!
6) Gets +1T, hooray, such balance!

And if you take the Axes, you get a unit with:

1) 1 fewer attack!
2) hits on 4s instead of hits on 2s!
3) 3+sv instead of 2+sv!
4) Move 5" instead of Move 6"!
5) D3 damage instead of Flat 2 Damage!
6) Costs 5ppm more!
7) +1T and +2S - hooray, such balance!

And remember folks: People are currently talking about wraiths as one of the single best units Eldar has going into 9th edition. This is the MOST COMPETITIVE THEYVE GOT going against these clownguard.

A few things here: Wraithblades are +2T over bladeguard not +1T and bladeguard only hit on 2s with the ancient near by who is more expensive than two bladeguard. The ancient in addition is terrible in melee and is only armed with a pistol. He is the worst model in the box IMO.


Sure.

Does this make Bladeguard not have the best of both variants of Wraithguard (the attacks of a sword WG, the damage from the axe WG, and the invuln from the axe WG) for 5ppm less?

No not at all. The difference between Str7 and 5 is pretty important in a lot of match ups. The funny part for me here is I just played a game yesterday where wraithguard with axes went toe to toe with bladeguard. I won the fight only because my captain came in with the burning blade and wrecked face. Without character support the wraiths were winning.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 15:39:35


Post by: TheAvengingKnee


Totto wrote:
So which of the two forces in the OP do you think would win a 9th mission easiest?


With the new 9th edition missions pretty much anyone wins vs custodes, they just don’t have the model count to control the board.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 15:53:34


Post by: dhallnet


TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Totto wrote:
So which of the two forces in the OP do you think would win a 9th mission easiest?


With the new 9th edition missions pretty much anyone wins vs custodes, they just don’t have the model count to control the board.

Don't need to control the board but rather to stay on an objective and not die.
Which they are kinda built to do.

I wouldn't guess who wins that match up though.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 15:54:36


Post by: Totto


TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Totto wrote:
So which of the two forces in the OP do you think would win a 9th mission easiest?


With the new 9th edition missions pretty much anyone wins vs custodes, they just don’t have the model count to control the board.


Ye, that's my theory as well, yet a few weeks ago all youtubers, at least the ones who "playtested" and influenced 9th edition, were raving about how fantastic Custodes was gonna be in 9th. L O L. I have yet to see any Custodes vs SM battlereport where Custodes have won, Well one actually against DA with Ravenwing, Custodes were tabled but won because they got 10 points since the opponent hadn't painted his army himself....LOL again.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 15:58:24


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Wraithblades:

If you go with the variant that gets the same number of attacks the Bladeguard get, you get a unit thats:

1) got damage 1 instead of damage 2!
2) got 3+ sv no invuln instead of 2+ 4++!
3) got move 5" instead of move 6"!
4) Hits on 3s instead of hits on 2s!
5) costs 5 points more!
6) Gets +1T, hooray, such balance!

And if you take the Axes, you get a unit with:

1) 1 fewer attack!
2) hits on 4s instead of hits on 2s!
3) 3+sv instead of 2+sv!
4) Move 5" instead of Move 6"!
5) D3 damage instead of Flat 2 Damage!
6) Costs 5ppm more!
7) +1T and +2S - hooray, such balance!

And remember folks: People are currently talking about wraiths as one of the single best units Eldar has going into 9th edition. This is the MOST COMPETITIVE THEYVE GOT going against these clownguard.

A few things here: Wraithblades are +2T over bladeguard not +1T and bladeguard only hit on 2s with the ancient near by who is more expensive than two bladeguard. The ancient in addition is terrible in melee and is only armed with a pistol. He is the worst model in the box IMO.


Sure.

Does this make Bladeguard not have the best of both variants of Wraithguard (the attacks of a sword WG, the damage from the axe WG, and the invuln from the axe WG) for 5ppm less?

No not at all. The difference between Str7 and 5 is pretty important in a lot of match ups. The funny part for me here is I just played a game yesterday where wraithguard with axes went toe to toe with bladeguard. I won the fight only because my captain came in with the burning blade and wrecked face. Without character support the wraiths were winning.

Purely anecdotal.
Did someone run the actual math on these comparisons though? We can all talk about individual model being better, but what really matters is the point for point comparison.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 16:04:39


Post by: Blood Hawk


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Wraithblades:

If you go with the variant that gets the same number of attacks the Bladeguard get, you get a unit thats:

1) got damage 1 instead of damage 2!
2) got 3+ sv no invuln instead of 2+ 4++!
3) got move 5" instead of move 6"!
4) Hits on 3s instead of hits on 2s!
5) costs 5 points more!
6) Gets +1T, hooray, such balance!

And if you take the Axes, you get a unit with:

1) 1 fewer attack!
2) hits on 4s instead of hits on 2s!
3) 3+sv instead of 2+sv!
4) Move 5" instead of Move 6"!
5) D3 damage instead of Flat 2 Damage!
6) Costs 5ppm more!
7) +1T and +2S - hooray, such balance!

And remember folks: People are currently talking about wraiths as one of the single best units Eldar has going into 9th edition. This is the MOST COMPETITIVE THEYVE GOT going against these clownguard.

A few things here: Wraithblades are +2T over bladeguard not +1T and bladeguard only hit on 2s with the ancient near by who is more expensive than two bladeguard. The ancient in addition is terrible in melee and is only armed with a pistol. He is the worst model in the box IMO.


Sure.

Does this make Bladeguard not have the best of both variants of Wraithguard (the attacks of a sword WG, the damage from the axe WG, and the invuln from the axe WG) for 5ppm less?

No not at all. The difference between Str7 and 5 is pretty important in a lot of match ups. The funny part for me here is I just played a game yesterday where wraithguard with axes went toe to toe with bladeguard. I won the fight only because my captain came in with the burning blade and wrecked face. Without character support the wraiths were winning.

Purely anecdotal.
Did someone run the actual math on these comparisons though? We can all talk about individual model being better, but what really matters is the point for point comparison.

I could but I honestly couldn't care less about hypothetical 40k.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 16:07:42


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Blood Hawk wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Wraithblades:

If you go with the variant that gets the same number of attacks the Bladeguard get, you get a unit thats:

1) got damage 1 instead of damage 2!
2) got 3+ sv no invuln instead of 2+ 4++!
3) got move 5" instead of move 6"!
4) Hits on 3s instead of hits on 2s!
5) costs 5 points more!
6) Gets +1T, hooray, such balance!

And if you take the Axes, you get a unit with:

1) 1 fewer attack!
2) hits on 4s instead of hits on 2s!
3) 3+sv instead of 2+sv!
4) Move 5" instead of Move 6"!
5) D3 damage instead of Flat 2 Damage!
6) Costs 5ppm more!
7) +1T and +2S - hooray, such balance!

And remember folks: People are currently talking about wraiths as one of the single best units Eldar has going into 9th edition. This is the MOST COMPETITIVE THEYVE GOT going against these clownguard.

A few things here: Wraithblades are +2T over bladeguard not +1T and bladeguard only hit on 2s with the ancient near by who is more expensive than two bladeguard. The ancient in addition is terrible in melee and is only armed with a pistol. He is the worst model in the box IMO.


Sure.

Does this make Bladeguard not have the best of both variants of Wraithguard (the attacks of a sword WG, the damage from the axe WG, and the invuln from the axe WG) for 5ppm less?

No not at all. The difference between Str7 and 5 is pretty important in a lot of match ups. The funny part for me here is I just played a game yesterday where wraithguard with axes went toe to toe with bladeguard. I won the fight only because my captain came in with the burning blade and wrecked face. Without character support the wraiths were winning.

Purely anecdotal.
Did someone run the actual math on these comparisons though? We can all talk about individual model being better, but what really matters is the point for point comparison.

I could but I honestly couldn't care less about hypothetical 40k.

So basically your judgment is off a one time thing instead of what would've happened in 90% of the other games?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 16:17:15


Post by: the_scotsman


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Wraithblades:

If you go with the variant that gets the same number of attacks the Bladeguard get, you get a unit thats:

1) got damage 1 instead of damage 2!
2) got 3+ sv no invuln instead of 2+ 4++!
3) got move 5" instead of move 6"!
4) Hits on 3s instead of hits on 2s!
5) costs 5 points more!
6) Gets +1T, hooray, such balance!

And if you take the Axes, you get a unit with:

1) 1 fewer attack!
2) hits on 4s instead of hits on 2s!
3) 3+sv instead of 2+sv!
4) Move 5" instead of Move 6"!
5) D3 damage instead of Flat 2 Damage!
6) Costs 5ppm more!
7) +1T and +2S - hooray, such balance!

And remember folks: People are currently talking about wraiths as one of the single best units Eldar has going into 9th edition. This is the MOST COMPETITIVE THEYVE GOT going against these clownguard.

A few things here: Wraithblades are +2T over bladeguard not +1T and bladeguard only hit on 2s with the ancient near by who is more expensive than two bladeguard. The ancient in addition is terrible in melee and is only armed with a pistol. He is the worst model in the box IMO.


Sure.

Does this make Bladeguard not have the best of both variants of Wraithguard (the attacks of a sword WG, the damage from the axe WG, and the invuln from the axe WG) for 5ppm less?

No not at all. The difference between Str7 and 5 is pretty important in a lot of match ups. The funny part for me here is I just played a game yesterday where wraithguard with axes went toe to toe with bladeguard. I won the fight only because my captain came in with the burning blade and wrecked face. Without character support the wraiths were winning.

Purely anecdotal.
Did someone run the actual math on these comparisons though? We can all talk about individual model being better, but what really matters is the point for point comparison.


If you just jam them into eachother they're roughly the same, it basically comes down to who gets the charge because the first turn a unit of 3 has the momentum to kill 1 of the opposing unit before they make their attacks on the first round.

I will assume because it's the minimum size unit of WG and the max size unit of BG, the poster was talking about FIVE WG fighting THREE BG, so..not just anecdotal, but probably dishonest as well.

Actual comparisons of their combat capabilities, axeguard vs Bladeguard. Assuming no doctrines and BG use their pistols.

VS GEQ
Axeguard: kill 4 on the charge
Bladeguard: Kill 7 on the charge

VS MEQ (Assuming multidamage applies)
Axeguard: 5 damage on the charge
Bladeguard: 10.3 damage on the charge

Variance on damage rolls give Bladeguard an advantage vs 2W meq. Axeguard get the same wound efficiency loss vs 3W meq on average rolls.

VS Standard Vehicle (T7 3+)
Axeguard: 3.75 damage on the charge
Bladeguard: 5.13 damage on the charge

In no instance does the bladeguards' +1 to hit, pistols, and 4 additional attacks not eclipse the Wraithguards' damage with axes. Bladeguard are also more durable vs anything but krak missiles/lascannons which double out their toughness while not doubling out the WG's toughness.





Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 16:57:57


Post by: catbarf


Dudeface wrote:
Edit: Oh I see you used 2 custodes, your better off running more bladeguard, since 2 custodes isn't a legal unit but either way equal points perform reasonably equally, which ins't shocking.


You see one unit performing about 50% better than the other (with nearly equal points) as 'performing reasonably equally'? For equal points, Bladeguard have significantly higher melee output and are anywhere from 0-50% tougher, depending on the weapon hitting them.

Bladeguard beat equal points of Custodes, hands down. It's not even close. To make the Custodes seem good you're putting 35pt models against equal numbers of 49pt models. And we're not even taking into account the myriad Marine synergies that act as force multipliers.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 17:24:06


Post by: Dudeface


 catbarf wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Edit: Oh I see you used 2 custodes, your better off running more bladeguard, since 2 custodes isn't a legal unit but either way equal points perform reasonably equally, which ins't shocking.


You see one unit performing about 50% better than the other (with nearly equal points) as 'performing reasonably equally'? For equal points, Bladeguard have significantly higher melee output and are anywhere from 0-50% tougher, depending on the weapon hitting them.

Bladeguard beat equal points of Custodes, hands down. It's not even close. To make the Custodes seem good you're putting 35pt models against equal numbers of 49pt models. And we're not even taking into account the myriad Marine synergies that act as force multipliers.


6 bladeguard 2 units of 3, 4 custodes with misericordia 210 pts v 208

Baldeguard: 0.266 wounds at range and 8.6 from melee. Thats 2 dead custodes maybe 3 on a good day. (104-156 killed)

Custodes 2 wounds at range, 6.6 from the spears, 1.1 from the misericordia. That's 1 squad wiped and 1-2 more blade guard killed (140-175).

Seems like at equal points the custodes have it.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 17:37:36


Post by: Spoletta


 catbarf wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
There is actually a post on reddit with a good analysis between regular SM bikers and Outriders, which shows that all in all they are about balanced. Bikers have slightly better defensive stats and better shooting (per point), outriders have better melee.


If you mean this thread, the general conclusion is that there's not much reason to take regular Bikers anymore. Outriders are tougher, better in melee, don't have to worry about Blast or Morale. They only lose out in shooting and resilience to anti-tank weapons, but if your opponent is putting lascannons into 45pt models, you're already winning. It's not a hard decision; any biker-heavy White Scars army is going to prefer Outriders unless they're planning on shenanigans involving meltaguns.

Again, not Custodes-tier, but overperforming for the cost even against models within the same codex, let alone other codices.


Many SM lists are bringing few or none tanks, so offering a good target for AT weapons is objectively a drawback over normal bikers. By the way, outriders bleed points as fast as a double lascannon razorback to S8+ AT fire, so not exactly that bad of a target and bleed much faster to S6-7 weapons.

Also, outriders suffer more from Dd3 weapons.

All in all the outriders are a little better against light weapons, but suffer much more from other sources.

Now, if you make them ravenwing and get that nice 4++...


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 17:41:35


Post by: catbarf


Dudeface wrote:
6 bladeguard 2 units of 3, 4 custodes with misericordia 210 pts v 208

Baldeguard: 0.266 wounds at range and 8.6 from melee. Thats 2 dead custodes maybe 3 on a good day. (104-156 killed)

Custodes 2 wounds at range, 6.6 from the spears, 1.1 from the misericordia. That's 1 squad wiped and 1-2 more blade guard killed (140-175).

Seems like at equal points the custodes have it.


Bladeguard inflicting 8.95 wounds on average accounts for 75% of the Custodes' wounds. They're killing exactly 3 Custodes out of 4 on average.

Custodes inflicting 2.22 wounds (shooting) plus 6.66 wounds (Spears) plus 1.11 wounds (Misericordias) equals 10 wounds, accounting for 56% of the Bladeguard's wounds. That's three dead, maybe four, leaving 2-3 able to strike back.

The Bladeguards are doing 33% better in a straight up fight. The Custodes don't 'have it', they're losing by a significant margin. But wait, there's more.

If the Custodes have the turn and charge first, those 2-3 Bladeguard (44%) that survive hit back, and will kill 33% of the Custodes (killing one, wounding another) in return.

If the Bladeguard have the turn and charge first, just one Custode (25%) will be left, and on average won't even kill a single Bladeguard (2 wounds, 11%).

The Custodes lose in a simultaneous fight (56% to 75%), barely win out if they have the turn (56% to 33%), and lose horribly if they get charged (11% to 75%). It's not a fair matchup.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 17:57:54


Post by: Dudeface


 catbarf wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
6 bladeguard 2 units of 3, 4 custodes with misericordia 210 pts v 208

Baldeguard: 0.266 wounds at range and 8.6 from melee. Thats 2 dead custodes maybe 3 on a good day. (104-156 killed)

Custodes 2 wounds at range, 6.6 from the spears, 1.1 from the misericordia. That's 1 squad wiped and 1-2 more blade guard killed (140-175).

Seems like at equal points the custodes have it.


Bladeguard inflicting 8.95 wounds on average accounts for 75% of the Custodes' wounds. They're killing exactly 3 Custodes out of 4 on average.

Custodes inflicting 2.22 wounds (shooting) plus 6.66 wounds (Spears) plus 1.11 wounds (Misericordias) equals 10 wounds, accounting for 56% of the Bladeguard's wounds. That's three dead, maybe four, leaving 2-3 able to strike back.

The Bladeguards are doing 33% better in a straight up fight. The Custodes don't 'have it', they're losing by a significant margin. But wait, there's more.

If the Custodes have the turn and charge first, those 2-3 Bladeguard (44%) that survive hit back, and will kill 33% of the Custodes (killing one, wounding another) in return.

If the Bladeguard have the turn and charge first, just one Custode (25%) will be left, and on average won't even kill a single Bladeguard (2 wounds, 11%).

The Custodes lose in a simultaneous fight (56% to 75%), barely win out if they have the turn (56% to 33%), and lose horribly if they get charged (11% to 75%). It's not a fair matchup.


I see where I went wrong, I thought the marines had 2 wounds, if they did that actually puts it into a better place. I stand corrected.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 18:29:10


Post by: the_scotsman


Dudeface wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
6 bladeguard 2 units of 3, 4 custodes with misericordia 210 pts v 208

Baldeguard: 0.266 wounds at range and 8.6 from melee. Thats 2 dead custodes maybe 3 on a good day. (104-156 killed)

Custodes 2 wounds at range, 6.6 from the spears, 1.1 from the misericordia. That's 1 squad wiped and 1-2 more blade guard killed (140-175).

Seems like at equal points the custodes have it.


Bladeguard inflicting 8.95 wounds on average accounts for 75% of the Custodes' wounds. They're killing exactly 3 Custodes out of 4 on average.

Custodes inflicting 2.22 wounds (shooting) plus 6.66 wounds (Spears) plus 1.11 wounds (Misericordias) equals 10 wounds, accounting for 56% of the Bladeguard's wounds. That's three dead, maybe four, leaving 2-3 able to strike back.

The Bladeguards are doing 33% better in a straight up fight. The Custodes don't 'have it', they're losing by a significant margin. But wait, there's more.

If the Custodes have the turn and charge first, those 2-3 Bladeguard (44%) that survive hit back, and will kill 33% of the Custodes (killing one, wounding another) in return.

If the Bladeguard have the turn and charge first, just one Custode (25%) will be left, and on average won't even kill a single Bladeguard (2 wounds, 11%).

The Custodes lose in a simultaneous fight (56% to 75%), barely win out if they have the turn (56% to 33%), and lose horribly if they get charged (11% to 75%). It's not a fair matchup.


I see where I went wrong, I thought the marines had 2 wounds, if they did that actually puts it into a better place. I stand corrected.


Yeah no, it's why everyone is suddenly comparing them to fething Wraithguard and Custodes and grotesques and bullgryns and going "wtf". GW has decided regular-ass space marine honor guard now need to have 3 wounds for no reason, also lololol they all fit in the transports like normal its K guys.

If you want to transport 4 custodes you're buying a THREE HUNDRED POINT LAND RAIDER bare minimum. If you want to transport 6 bladeguard? Buy 'em a primaris rhino for 100pts!


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 19:56:03


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


They're not regular Honour Guard though, they're PRIMARIS Honour Guard.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 20:21:50


Post by: Daedalus81


the_scotsman wrote:

Actual comparisons of their combat capabilities, axeguard vs Bladeguard. Assuming no doctrines and BG use their pistols.



In no instance does the bladeguards' +1 to hit, pistols, and 4 additional attacks not eclipse the Wraithguards' damage with axes. Bladeguard are also more durable vs anything but krak missiles/lascannons which double out their toughness while not doubling out the WG's toughness.


Why are you using the +1 to hit from the ancient in a straight comparison?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 20:24:48


Post by: BrianDavion


the_scotsman wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
6 bladeguard 2 units of 3, 4 custodes with misericordia 210 pts v 208

Baldeguard: 0.266 wounds at range and 8.6 from melee. Thats 2 dead custodes maybe 3 on a good day. (104-156 killed)

Custodes 2 wounds at range, 6.6 from the spears, 1.1 from the misericordia. That's 1 squad wiped and 1-2 more blade guard killed (140-175).

Seems like at equal points the custodes have it.


Bladeguard inflicting 8.95 wounds on average accounts for 75% of the Custodes' wounds. They're killing exactly 3 Custodes out of 4 on average.

Custodes inflicting 2.22 wounds (shooting) plus 6.66 wounds (Spears) plus 1.11 wounds (Misericordias) equals 10 wounds, accounting for 56% of the Bladeguard's wounds. That's three dead, maybe four, leaving 2-3 able to strike back.

The Bladeguards are doing 33% better in a straight up fight. The Custodes don't 'have it', they're losing by a significant margin. But wait, there's more.

If the Custodes have the turn and charge first, those 2-3 Bladeguard (44%) that survive hit back, and will kill 33% of the Custodes (killing one, wounding another) in return.

If the Bladeguard have the turn and charge first, just one Custode (25%) will be left, and on average won't even kill a single Bladeguard (2 wounds, 11%).

The Custodes lose in a simultaneous fight (56% to 75%), barely win out if they have the turn (56% to 33%), and lose horribly if they get charged (11% to 75%). It's not a fair matchup.


I see where I went wrong, I thought the marines had 2 wounds, if they did that actually puts it into a better place. I stand corrected.


Yeah no, it's why everyone is suddenly comparing them to fething Wraithguard and Custodes and grotesques and bullgryns and going "wtf". GW has decided regular-ass space marine honor guard now need to have 3 wounds for no reason, also lololol they all fit in the transports like normal its K guys.

If you want to transport 4 custodes you're buying a THREE HUNDRED POINT LAND RAIDER bare minimum. If you want to transport 6 bladeguard? Buy 'em a primaris rhino for 100pts!


that's not an argument against bladeguard, that's an argument that custodes have an obvious hole in their army list that could stand to be plugged


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 20:25:47


Post by: Blood Hawk


 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

Actual comparisons of their combat capabilities, axeguard vs Bladeguard. Assuming no doctrines and BG use their pistols.



In no instance does the bladeguards' +1 to hit, pistols, and 4 additional attacks not eclipse the Wraithguards' damage with axes. Bladeguard are also more durable vs anything but krak missiles/lascannons which double out their toughness while not doubling out the WG's toughness.


Why are you using the +1 to hit from the ancient in a straight comparison?

Because they are biased and think bladeguard are OP and 3 wound non gravis primaris is BS even though we have had them since 2018? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Marneus-Calgar-2018 I mean the victrix guard are the same pt cost as bladeguard. They have a better stat line and inv save but weaker swords and only come in unit sizes of 2.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So basically your judgment is off a one time thing instead of what would've happened in 90% of the other games?

No I was just saying it was amusing to me since I just played an actual game where the match up occurred. I am not judging the unit based on that one game.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 20:53:52


Post by: catbarf


 Blood Hawk wrote:
Because they are biased and think bladeguard are OP and 3 wound non gravis primaris is BS even though we have had them since 2018? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Marneus-Calgar-2018 I mean the victrix guard are the same pt cost as bladeguard. They have a better stat line and inv save but weaker swords and only come in unit sizes of 2.


The only reason you don't see Victrix Guard much- or complaining about them- because they're locked to Ultramarines only, and their overperformance is skewed more towards durability than offensive output, which at least makes them less of a problem since they can be simply ignored to focus on bigger threats. But yeah, them having three wounds is silly.

I mean, let's compare them to Tyrant Guard, a unit with a very similar role. Tyrant Guard have 1 higher S and T, and an inch extra movement; those are their only advantages. Meanwhile Victrix Guard have WS2+, 1 more Attack (2 in the first round of combat), more consistently high AP (AP-3, vs AP-1 with AP-4 on 6s), and a 2+/3++ save, whereas Tyrant Guard are just 3+. Victrix Guard hit harder in combat, are dramatically harder to kill, and bodyguard just as well, yet for all of 8th Ed they were cheaper than Tyrant Guard.

If you want to convince us that a unit isn't OP, give some comparisons to counterparts in other factions. Marine players arguing that their units are balanced by comparing to similarly undercosted units within their own army got old real fast.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 20:58:40


Post by: Insectum7


 catbarf wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
Because they are biased and think bladeguard are OP and 3 wound non gravis primaris is BS even though we have had them since 2018? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Marneus-Calgar-2018 I mean the victrix guard are the same pt cost as bladeguard. They have a better stat line and inv save but weaker swords and only come in unit sizes of 2.


The only reason you don't see Victrix Guard much- or complaining about them- because they're locked to Ultramarines only, and their overperformance is skewed more towards durability than offensive output, which at least makes them less of a problem since they can be simply ignored to focus on bigger threats. But yeah, them having three wounds is silly.

I mean, let's compare them to Tyrant Guard, a unit with a very similar role. Tyrant Guard have 1 higher S and T, and an inch extra movement; those are their only advantages. Meanwhile Victrix Guard have WS2+, 1 more Attack (2 in the first round of combat), more consistently high AP (AP-3, vs AP-1 with AP-4 on 6s), and a 2+/3++ save, whereas Tyrant Guard are just 3+. Victrix Guard hit harder in combat, are dramatically harder to kill, and bodyguard just as well, yet for all of 8th Ed they were cheaper than Tyrant Guard.


Oh godd*** it. I never looked at them closely so I never noticed that. That's really aggravating.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 21:12:02


Post by: Blood Hawk


 catbarf wrote:

If you want to convince us that a unit isn't OP, give some comparisons to counterparts in other factions. Marine players arguing that their units are balanced by comparing to similarly undercosted units within their own army got old real fast.

Nah I am good. Like I said earlier I couldn't care less about hypothetical warhammer. I largely consider it a waste of time.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 21:27:29


Post by: Aaranis


Honestly I probably will play one or two games against Marines to have fun with friends who play them, but if they stay as they are in their future codex and the others don't meet the same standards of creep I'm just not playing against Marines again. Had a 2v2 game once, AdMech + Chaos SM vs Ultramarines + Imperial Fists and it was the most unfun game I've ever played. Shoot the Aggressors/ ? They'll shoot back at you while dying with the Ancient behind. Try a charge ? Eat 500 bolter rounds to the face. Keep your distance ? LOL eat it just the same. We killed like 6 models and got almost tabled turn two. We're expected to have fun against that ?

Rules writer don't even know what's happening outside the SM codex when they're writing it, it doesn't surprise me they'd have units performing way better than similar units in other armies for way less.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 22:53:39


Post by: Tyel


On bikers versus outriders, it sort of depends what GW do with the biker datasheet. As said, if you can load out with storm bolter on sergeant and chainswords then its probably superior.

If however they were to go "bikers have twin boltguns and bolt pistols, because that's what they are modelled with, clear off to legends you converting or ancient model hoarding scum" then I think it swings towards the outriders quite quickly. (Although I guess it depends on how you value 2/5ths a biker).

On the bladeguard, I've kind of just been thinking "eh, slow assault unit, I'll just avoid it". Which I guess is still going to be my hope - but tbh, impulsored up the board turn one, you have yet another unit you can't afford to ignore.

The seemingly endless march of the Eldar+5 models is sad.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/29 23:36:43


Post by: Daedalus81


Tyel wrote:
On bikers versus outriders, it sort of depends what GW do with the biker datasheet. As said, if you can load out with storm bolter on sergeant and chainswords then its probably superior.

If however they were to go "bikers have twin boltguns and bolt pistols, because that's what they are modelled with, clear off to legends you converting or ancient model hoarding scum" then I think it swings towards the outriders quite quickly. (Although I guess it depends on how you value 2/5ths a biker).

On the bladeguard, I've kind of just been thinking "eh, slow assault unit, I'll just avoid it". Which I guess is still going to be my hope - but tbh, impulsored up the board turn one, you have yet another unit you can't afford to ignore.

The seemingly endless march of the Eldar+5 models is sad.


I keep thinking I remember how GW said all marine chainswords would become astartes chainswords, which would close the gap even more. I think it was the stream, but I could be terribly mistaken there. We still have unresolved storm shields as well.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 01:26:42


Post by: Void__Dragon


 catbarf wrote:


Bladeguard Vets are 35ppm, Custodian Guard with Guardian Spears are 49ppm. Two Custodians are nearly the same cost as three Bladeguard.

My math says if 3 Bladeguard get to strike first, they shoot for 0.44 wounds, then charge and inflict another 4 wounds, for 74% damage inflicted.

2 Custodes shoot for 1.11 wounds, then charge and inflict another 3.33 wounds, for 49% damage inflicted.

The Custodes have the better shooting, but point-for-point the Bladeguard Vets take more damage and dish more out in melee.


Your math if I've figured it right assumes that Bladeguard have a 3++.

They don't. They have a 4++.

Read the FAQ:
Page 18 – Bladeguard Veteran Squad, Other Wargear, storm
shield, Abilities
Change this to read:
‘The bearer has a 4+ invulnerable save. In addition, add 1 to
armour saving throws made for the bearer.’

So how does a three man squad of Bladeguard fare against two Custodian Guard?

They do okay. On average on the charge they do 4.33 damage (not wounds), the Custodian Guard do 4.44.

But that's against spear guard. Against sword and shield guard, who do in fact have a 3++, the two shield guard get an average of 3.33 wounds. Generally about a thirty-ish percent decrease in lethality due to no longer getting the extra attacks from the misericordia, but still will on average do more than enough damage to kill one Bladeguard.

The Bladeguard proceed to do 2.89. So on average not actually killing a Custodian, if just barely.

Either way the Custodians look somewhat stronger, and that's not even factoring in their superior shooting and ability to weather volume small arms fire.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 03:37:40


Post by: catbarf


No, I based my math on 4++.

2 Custodes get 6 attacks, 5 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.67 unsaved, 3.33 wounds average. You add a misericordia and the damage goes up, but the points efficiency drops further.

Even in your example with spear and shield guard, the Bladeguard are inflicting 48% damage to the Custodes, and the Custodes are inflicting
37% back. The Bladeguard are still faring 30% better in this example. You're making the same mistake of analyzing as if both sides have equal wounds; the Bladeguard get half again as many wounds for roughly the same cost, and that means the Custodes barely inflicting more wounds than the Bladeguard means they're losing.

Suggesting that Custodes are better able to weather small arms fire just isn't true once you take that wounds:points ratio into account. Point for point the Bladeguard are just as durable against S4 fire (they take 50% more wounds, but have about 50% more wounds for a given points value), and consequently the Bladeguard are straight up 50% tougher against S3 fire.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 05:01:10


Post by: Void__Dragon


 catbarf wrote:
No, I based my math on 4++.

2 Custodes get 6 attacks, 5 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.67 unsaved, 3.33 wounds average. You add a misericordia and the damage goes up, but the points efficiency drops further.

Even in your example with spear and shield guard, the Bladeguard are inflicting 48% damage to the Custodes, and the Custodes are inflicting
37% back. The Bladeguard are still faring 30% better in this example. You're making the same mistake of analyzing as if both sides have equal wounds; the Bladeguard get half again as many wounds for roughly the same cost, and that means the Custodes barely inflicting more wounds than the Bladeguard means they're losing.

Suggesting that Custodes are better able to weather small arms fire just isn't true once you take that wounds:points ratio into account. Point for point the Bladeguard are just as durable against S4 fire (they take 50% more wounds, but have about 50% more wounds for a given points value), and consequently the Bladeguard are straight up 50% tougher against S3 fire.


Ah so you're just saying that Bladeguard are more points efficient wound-wise. All right, now that I understand your point better I think I can agree.

But like, who cares? Two Custodian guard also has far superior shooting to three Bladeguard.

Firing at 18" range, the max range of Bladeguard pistols, two Custodian guard on average will usually get one wound on a Primaris and proceed to kill one.

Bladeguard have a 50% chance to do a whopping 1 damage to them.

In 12" or less, rapid fire range, it's not even close and their chance of success doubles to a near certainty.

At 24" range, maximum Custodian range, the Bladeguard can't shoot at all.

Just so we're clear, I'm not saying Bladeguard are weak or even balanced. They're not even close to it and Space Marines are almost certainly still the strongest army, with Bladeguard being a very valuable addition to the army as an efficient melee threat to fight over objectives and not die when delivered by an Impulsor.

What I am saying is that Custodes are probably one of the strongest factions coming into 9th edition and are being slept on, and Bladeguard being better at some things than their troop choice isn't an indictment of Custodes as an army.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 05:13:37


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


You'd have a point if Custodes shooting was even worth anything. Them shooting better than Bladeguard isn't really helping your point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quite honestly I just hope they can get more than 3 models in a squad and we get a better delivery system. The rules are ripe for Conversion opportunities.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 05:36:57


Post by: tneva82


 Amishprn86 wrote:
Not only are they +1T and +1str base, but also has a 4++, their weapon gives them an additional +1str and D3, also everything hits on 2+. Honestly, Outriders are not really all that good if you compare them Point for points to Marine bikers and Scout Bikers.
¨

And what if you compare to other armies stuff? You know comparing new marine unit to units from broken codex doesn't really tell much about is it OP unit or not...


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 05:54:22


Post by: Daedalus81


Spoiler:
Totto wrote:
So, Space marines are now getting more and more units with Custodes-like stat lines and in the case of Bladeguards even better saves than most Custodes. At the same time they are cheaper than Custodes.

Am I wrong in thinking that they are now superior to the custodes? Not to mention all the reroll mechanics space marines have.

I remember reading that a Custodes was to a space marine as a space marine is to a guardsman, i guess that is no longer true.

Consider the following around 1K lists and the new missions:

Custodes Patrol Detachment:
Shield Captain on jetbike
Custodian Guard squad (3 models)
Allarus Custodians squad (3 models)
Vexillus Praetor
Vertus Praetors (3 bikes)

All in all 11 models (7 inf, 4 bikes)

Space Marines (and bear with me here, i'm not a SM player)
Patrol Detachment 1
Primaris Captain
Intercessor Squad(5 models)
Aggressor squad (3 models)
Outrider Squad (3 models)
Eradicator Squad (3 models)

Patrol Detachment 2
Primaris Chaplain
Scout Squad (5 models)
Bladeguard Veteran Squad (3 models)
Eradicator Squad (3 models)

All in all 26 models(23 inf and 3 bikes) of which 15 have Custodes-like stats?

My bet on who is winning that mission is on the SM.



I wanted to come back to this and address it directly.

The space marines have :

12 melta
11 to 16 30" S4 AP1
5 to 10 24" S4 AP0
21 8" S4 AP0

The only things capable of taking on terminator armor are the Eradicators, but when the Custodes have units that M14 and FLY how exactly do you get the jump on them?

Also I'm not really sold on the idea of spending ~120 points on a Vertus Praetor for the -1 in such a small game where everything is likely too spread out.

In any case I imagine the Custodes have a real good shot at winning. VotBG (reroll hit, wound, and save) on the SC and +2W for Captain Commander. A 3++ and reroll charges for the relic and then either 5+++ or half damage for the trait. I mean...good luck killing him.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Void__Dragon wrote:

Just so we're clear, I'm not saying Bladeguard are weak or even balanced. They're not even close to it and Space Marines are almost certainly still the strongest army, with Bladeguard being a very valuable addition to the army as an efficient melee threat to fight over objectives and not die when delivered by an Impulsor.


(This isn't to you directly, but more to the group)

If BG go up by 5 and marines spend 30 extra points on them are they fixed?
If they go up by 10 and spend 60 extra points...are they fixed?

What's the line, here?

Certainly 60 ppm would make sure they never see the table. No one would spend 485 points to put 6 of them on an objective with an impulsor, would they?

At what cost would you NOT take them?

45 points means 395 total for the above 6+ Impulsor. Is it worth it to spend 20% of your army on a single element that sits on an objective? What happens when you're playing a mission with 6 objectives?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 06:19:56


Post by: Ice_can


Arguments about non troops costing to many points to sit on objectives when you give them a transport is straight up arguing in bad faith.

Though frankly that those are the lengths people are going to to defend marine's as not over powered/undercosted shows just how rediculous the are compaired to other factions.

Even adding 10 points to each model (45ppm) they don't compair unfairly to xeno options, same with outriders. Eradicators are just so broken they need 20 points and likely more added to balance against xeno options.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 06:25:59


Post by: Insectum7


The thing that still bugs me to no end is:

Firepike: Ancient Eldar high tech artifact, wielded as an art form by millennia-old masters of the form. 18" Meltagun

Eradicator Melta Rifle: 24" Meltagun
And Eradicators all apparently have the Eldar Exarch skill of Fast Shot.

sigh.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 06:52:27


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 07:00:27


Post by: BrianDavion


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 07:44:17


Post by: Ice_can


BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Because when they were compaired to units the people do take the marine defenders just ignorred it or shifted the goalposts again to avoid having to justify why they should pay less for the same statlines as other armies without rerolls upon rerolls pay.

And don't give me the slayer logic of if you add a captains aura you have to include the point's of the captian in the unit as that's BS you can easily get 90%of a marine army covered by that CM aura for the first three turns or more with minimal skill.

Also so far these are basic unbuffed blade guard give them all the aura buffs and make the BA or WS and they go ham.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 07:48:30


Post by: Not Online!!!



Certainly 60 ppm would make sure they never see the table. No one would spend 485 points to put 6 of them on an objective with an impulsor, would they?

At what cost would you NOT take them?

45 points means 395 total for the above 6+ Impulsor. Is it worth it to spend 20% of your army on a single element that sits on an objective? What happens when you're playing a mission with 6 objectives?


You see, for some factions that is required baseline to get a comp unit, so either pay up or complain is quite a valid argument.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 08:48:17


Post by: shortymcnostrill


BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?


Because it grates when what is supposed to be the premier melta unit in the game in a faction (supposed to be) known for its hyperspecialized units is absolutely eclipsed by a unit in what is supposed to be an army of generalists (compared to eldar at least). You do have a point about fire dragons being ineffective even without comparing them to eradicators. In fact, most aspect warriors have been for quite some time now. This is just the latest slap in the face for those who want to field aspects, and that cheek is getting awfully sore. But agreed, this is more of a fluff/lore disconnect gripe.

I do wonder which antitank unit we should be comparing eradicators to. Is there one to which they compare unfavorably? How do three of them with buffbots* fare compared to a shadowsword for example?

*
Spoiler:
Kind of disingenuous to add the full points for chapter master and lieutenant to these three three-strong units in this comparison as you'd be insane not to at least protect your characters with a tough unit, but oh well


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 08:55:26


Post by: Not Online!!!


you can quite comfortably compare 3 eradicators to a obliterator, only i can guarantee you that the obliterator without any buffs applied bites the dust in effectiveness and capability,
and't is only 5 pts cheaper aswell


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 09:00:48


Post by: Eldenfirefly


A lot of experts all view Custodes as one of the top 5 factions likely to shine among the over 20 factions in 9th Ed. Honestly, I am not sure what is the concern here. You have an army that is high toughness with mostly 4++ invul or even 3++ invul saves. I don't think even primaris gets that, unless they are characters.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 09:14:02


Post by: tneva82


Certainly 60 ppm would make sure they never see the table. No one would spend 485 points to put 6 of them on an objective with an impulsor, would they?


So according to you nobody takes twin multimeltas in the game...seeing those are alone 50 pts and nobody has as cost effective carrier either. And is worse weapon as well.

So if 60ppm eradicator is junk nobody takes what kind of super hyper mega trash twin multi melta is then? In fact if 40 pts is good then how little twin multi melta needs to cost? 15 pts?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 09:17:46


Post by: BrianDavion


tneva82 wrote:
Certainly 60 ppm would make sure they never see the table. No one would spend 485 points to put 6 of them on an objective with an impulsor, would they?


So according to you nobody takes twin multimeltas in the game...seeing those are alone 50 pts and nobody has as cost effective carrier either. And is worse weapon as well.

So if 60ppm eradicator is junk nobody takes what kind of super hyper mega trash twin multi melta is then? In fact if 40 pts is good then how little twin multi melta needs to cost? 15 pts?


not really, most people tended to avoid melta's in 8th, only army that ued them much was sisters who don't exactly have much choice.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 09:19:56


Post by: tneva82


Yet I see them. But what's the price you would take twin melta's then? Seeing how good platform eradicator has it has to be fairly substantially lower than 40 seeing that's eradicator price(so can't be same price or higher) and is top of that worse than eradicator. And eradicator carrier is pretty damn effective.

15? 20? 30 would be way too expensive.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 09:20:37


Post by: BrianDavion


Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Because when they were compaired to units the people do take the marine defenders just ignorred it or shifted the goalposts again to avoid having to justify why they should pay less for the same statlines as other armies without rerolls upon rerolls pay.

And don't give me the slayer logic of if you add a captains aura you have to include the point's of the captian in the unit as that's BS you can easily get 90%of a marine army covered by that CM aura for the first three turns or more with minimal skill.

Also so far these are basic unbuffed blade guard give them all the aura buffs and make the BA or WS and they go ham.

no I am saying if you wanna include the re-rolls you have to factor in the cost of the captain. doing otherwise is absolutely dishonest, especially when we know space marines will be limited to one captain per detachment. yeah maybe you can squeeze your entire army into a 6 inch radius, but you're not capturing many objectives while doing that


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote:
Yet I see them. But what's the price you would take twin melta's then? Seeing how good platform eradicator has it has to be fairly substantially lower than 40 seeing that's eradicator price(so can't be same price or higher) and is top of that worse than eradicator. And eradicator carrier is pretty damn effective.

15? 20? 30 would be way too expensive.


right now Multi melta's are 20/25 points (depending on if it's on infantry or something else) this gives a 24 inch range, S 8 AP -4 D6 re-roll damage within 12 inches or less weapon.

By comparison

A Lacanon is AP -3, S9 Range 48 D6 damage. for 15/20 points (15 on infantry 20 on anything else)

they're over priced. only army I know that takes Multi-Melta's competivly tend to be SOBs, and thats more because they don't have anything else for anti-tank


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 09:37:00


Post by: Ice_can


BrianDavion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Because when they were compaired to units the people do take the marine defenders just ignorred it or shifted the goalposts again to avoid having to justify why they should pay less for the same statlines as other armies without rerolls upon rerolls pay.

And don't give me the slayer logic of if you add a captains aura you have to include the point's of the captian in the unit as that's BS you can easily get 90%of a marine army covered by that CM aura for the first three turns or more with minimal skill.

Also so far these are basic unbuffed blade guard give them all the aura buffs and make the BA or WS and they go ham.

no I am saying if you wanna include the re-rolls you have to factor in the cost of the captain. doing otherwise is absolutely dishonest, especially when we know space marines will be limited to one captain per detachment. yeah maybe you can squeeze your entire army into a 6 inch radius, but you're not capturing many objectives while doing that

Bull you not capturing many objectives.

6 inches plus 20mm plus 32mmx4 +8 inches is the radious 1 CM and a 5man unit can cover plant him in the center of the board and your laughing. You can cover a 38 inch diameter circile with everyone under aura buffs on a 44 by 60 table.
That circile is enough to cover atleast half of the objectives in every GT pack mission FFS.

Seriously Marine player need to learn to play better not demand more OP primaracrap to cheese the game.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 09:38:20


Post by: BrianDavion


Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Because when they were compaired to units the people do take the marine defenders just ignorred it or shifted the goalposts again to avoid having to justify why they should pay less for the same statlines as other armies without rerolls upon rerolls pay.

And don't give me the slayer logic of if you add a captains aura you have to include the point's of the captian in the unit as that's BS you can easily get 90%of a marine army covered by that CM aura for the first three turns or more with minimal skill.

Also so far these are basic unbuffed blade guard give them all the aura buffs and make the BA or WS and they go ham.

no I am saying if you wanna include the re-rolls you have to factor in the cost of the captain. doing otherwise is absolutely dishonest, especially when we know space marines will be limited to one captain per detachment. yeah maybe you can squeeze your entire army into a 6 inch radius, but you're not capturing many objectives while doing that

Bull you not capturing many objectives.

6 inches plus 20mm plus 32mmx4 +8 inches is the radious 1 CM and a 5man unit can cover plant him in the center of the board and your laughing. You can cover a 38 inch diameter circile with everyone under aura buffs on a 44 by 60 table.
That circile is enough to cover atleast half of the objectives in every GT pack mission FFS.

Seriously Marine player need to learn to play better not demand more OP primaracrap to cheese the game.



Ok I'll bite, what do you play?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 09:42:38


Post by: Ice_can


Have Ultramarines, Knights and Tau.

Given up on the marines as they are too damn cheese it's no fun rofl stomping everyone even with a stupid list.

When people would rather play against a competitive Tau list or a Pure Knights list than a 30k/40k Marine list you know Marines is brokenness personified


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 10:10:46


Post by: Totto


I just wish primaris models had stopped at 2 wounds, now many of them have 3. How many other armies have that and can fulfill as many battle roles as the SM or as well as the SM. Not to talk about as cheaply as SM.

The way GW buffs SM one would think they are afraid they are gonna lose their biggest income unless they make them superior. Maybe we should all just stop buying other factions so we end up with only SM vs SM fights, that'll be SO FUN!

Also again the lore, Aren't the Custodes supposed to be able to easily dispatch a Space Marine or two? In a 1 vs 1 melee Bladeguard/Custodian Guard i think the Custodes has it, but say if there were 2 Bladeguard I think the Custodes will lose.

Just increase the points costs of these undercosted units and I'd be way more fine with it playwise though, Though I suspect the next SM Codex and supplements will buff them even more rather than make their units more expensive.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 10:26:42


Post by: Amishprn86


tneva82 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Not only are they +1T and +1str base, but also has a 4++, their weapon gives them an additional +1str and D3, also everything hits on 2+. Honestly, Outriders are not really all that good if you compare them Point for points to Marine bikers and Scout Bikers.
¨

And what if you compare to other armies stuff? You know comparing new marine unit to units from broken codex doesn't really tell much about is it OP unit or not...


People say Marine and Scout bikes are OP?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 12:16:47


Post by: the_scotsman


 Void__Dragon wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
No, I based my math on 4++.

2 Custodes get 6 attacks, 5 hits, 3.33 wounds, 1.67 unsaved, 3.33 wounds average. You add a misericordia and the damage goes up, but the points efficiency drops further.

Even in your example with spear and shield guard, the Bladeguard are inflicting 48% damage to the Custodes, and the Custodes are inflicting
37% back. The Bladeguard are still faring 30% better in this example. You're making the same mistake of analyzing as if both sides have equal wounds; the Bladeguard get half again as many wounds for roughly the same cost, and that means the Custodes barely inflicting more wounds than the Bladeguard means they're losing.

Suggesting that Custodes are better able to weather small arms fire just isn't true once you take that wounds:points ratio into account. Point for point the Bladeguard are just as durable against S4 fire (they take 50% more wounds, but have about 50% more wounds for a given points value), and consequently the Bladeguard are straight up 50% tougher against S3 fire.


Ah so you're just saying that Bladeguard are more points efficient wound-wise. All right, now that I understand your point better I think I can agree.

But like, who cares? Two Custodian guard also has far superior shooting to three Bladeguard.

Firing at 18" range, the max range of Bladeguard pistols, two Custodian guard on average will usually get one wound on a Primaris and proceed to kill one.

Bladeguard have a 50% chance to do a whopping 1 damage to them.

In 12" or less, rapid fire range, it's not even close and their chance of success doubles to a near certainty.

At 24" range, maximum Custodian range, the Bladeguard can't shoot at all.

Just so we're clear, I'm not saying Bladeguard are weak or even balanced. They're not even close to it and Space Marines are almost certainly still the strongest army, with Bladeguard being a very valuable addition to the army as an efficient melee threat to fight over objectives and not die when delivered by an Impulsor.

What I am saying is that Custodes are probably one of the strongest factions coming into 9th edition and are being slept on, and Bladeguard being better at some things than their troop choice isn't an indictment of Custodes as an army.


One single S4 AP-1 D2 attack at 12" range = FAR SUPERIOR.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 13:07:08


Post by: catbarf


 Void__Dragon wrote:
Just so we're clear, I'm not saying Bladeguard are weak or even balanced. They're not even close to it and Space Marines are almost certainly still the strongest army, with Bladeguard being a very valuable addition to the army as an efficient melee threat to fight over objectives and not die when delivered by an Impulsor.

What I am saying is that Custodes are probably one of the strongest factions coming into 9th edition and are being slept on, and Bladeguard being better at some things than their troop choice isn't an indictment of Custodes as an army.


Totally agreed with all of this. I took OP's point to be not that Custodes are weak, as they got great benefits out of both a general lack of points hikes and mechanics that favor MSU and melee. It's more an indictment of Bladeguard as symbolic of Marine undercosting- they're better than Custodes in certain respects and near their level in others, all coming in at just 2/3 the cost- and the worst part is that by Marine standards, they're not all that amazing.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 13:11:11


Post by: Tyel


Is there anything behind this idea that Custodes are going to be a top faction beyond the fact they got a below average points decrease?

As I see it you have edition more focused on objectives and an army which still isn't especially good at claiming or holding them. Bikes aside its a relatively slow, relatively weak shooting army that you can just pick apart on your terms.

But maybe there is stuff among the broken combinations of forgeworld and PA.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 13:11:27


Post by: Quasistellar


Different army. Different role. Only remotely valid comparison is the outriders vs jetbikes.

This thread is really, really silly.



Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 13:18:50


Post by: Ice_can


Tyel wrote:
Is there anything behind this idea that Custodes are going to be a top faction beyond the fact they got a below average points decrease?

As I see it you have edition more focused on objectives and an army which still isn't especially good at claiming or holding them. Bikes aside its a relatively slow, relatively weak shooting army that you can just pick apart on your terms.

But maybe there is stuff among the broken combinations of forgeworld and PA.


They have some legs in that they don't have aura's and every model has obsec so they can do some list building shenanigans and style that other armies can't.
They also benifit alot in CP from the detachment changes so they can finally throw around strategums like candy.
However they also took a hard hit with marine 2.0 last year being one of their worst matchups do to AP spam.

I dont think most people are calling them OP, I think it's mostly been most improved army, which isnt the same.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 13:21:16


Post by: Daedalus81


Ice_can wrote:
Arguments about non troops costing to many points to sit on objectives when you give them a transport is straight up arguing in bad faith.

Though frankly that those are the lengths people are going to to defend marine's as not over powered/undercosted shows just how rediculous the are compaired to other factions.

Even adding 10 points to each model (45ppm) they don't compair unfairly to xeno options, same with outriders. Eradicators are just so broken they need 20 points and likely more added to balance against xeno options.


No, I'm literally asking you what is the line where you would stop using this clearly overpowered combination of 6 BG in an Impulsor.

Because there is a line. And acknowledging that line helps to demonstrate how little room for variance there is for units like this.

BG are about worthless walking across the table, but cheap enough at present if you wanted to. And while they could maybe use a small point hit that change is such a small percentage of a list it is almost inconsequential.

And, no, it isn't a simple thing to compare units across codexes. Different units have different outcomes in context of their army.

Size limits also affect outcomes. Spawn are limited to 5. If they were limited to 10 you'd see them more often. If they were limited to 20 they'd be broken. This a concept clearly demonstrated in the Rule of Three. What happens if we gave 20 Spawn to Marines? They wouldn't be as broken, because Marines don't have the tools to make it worthwhile.



Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 13:59:09


Post by: catbarf


 Daedalus81 wrote:
And while they could maybe use a small point hit that change is such a small percentage of a list it is almost inconsequential.


Sure. Now repeat this across the other units in the Marine codex that punch above their weight, and then it quickly starts to matter. A 5pt increase on Bladeguard is a 14% increase, about on par with the 8th->9th transition- I don't think anyone argues that that was inconsequential.

An increase of as little as 5pts would put Bladeguard about on par with Custodes- better in the first round of combat, but inferior shooting and reduced performance in subsequent rounds. Add 10pts to Eradicators, and now the Indomitus contents are up 45pts just from those alone, about 5%.

5% matters- having to shave ~50pts off a 1K list, or ~100pts off a 2K list, doesn't feel inconsequential to me.

I feel like pointing at a single unit that is part of a broader problem and going 'well, nerfing just this one unit a bit won't make that big a difference' is rather missing the forest for the trees.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 14:16:58


Post by: Insectum7


BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Slayerfan does not get it. You could halve the points value of Fire Dragons to make them competetive from a game standpoint. However that doesn't change the fact that this ancient and powerful artifact of a gun is worse than this new Primaris standard equipment. It's just another blip in the constant insult-to-other-factions that is Primaris.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
Spoiler:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Because when they were compaired to units the people do take the marine defenders just ignorred it or shifted the goalposts again to avoid having to justify why they should pay less for the same statlines as other armies without rerolls upon rerolls pay.

And don't give me the slayer logic of if you add a captains aura you have to include the point's of the captian in the unit as that's BS you can easily get 90%of a marine army covered by that CM aura for the first three turns or more with minimal skill.

Also so far these are basic unbuffed blade guard give them all the aura buffs and make the BA or WS and they go ham.

no I am saying if you wanna include the re-rolls you have to factor in the cost of the captain. doing otherwise is absolutely dishonest, especially when we know space marines will be limited to one captain per detachment. yeah maybe you can squeeze your entire army into a 6 inch radius, but you're not capturing many objectives while doing that

Bull you not capturing many objectives.

6 inches plus 20mm plus 32mmx4 +8 inches is the radious 1 CM and a 5man unit can cover plant him in the center of the board and your laughing. You can cover a 38 inch diameter circile with everyone under aura buffs on a 44 by 60 table.
That circile is enough to cover atleast half of the objectives in every GT pack mission FFS.

Seriously Marine player need to learn to play better not demand more OP primaracrap to cheese the game.



Ok I'll bite, what do you play?
I play Space Marines, and I agree with everything he posted. I spent nearly all of 8th edition with 80%+ of my army within CM+Lt reroll range.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 14:30:19


Post by: Daedalus81


I personally rather doubt many of the units will keep their current point cost from Indomitus.

Yes, the cumulative effect over the army can have an effect, but let's play out this 100 point increase on this list. What gets cut? The Bladeguard. Intercessors and Scouts are necessary. HQs are bare minimum. Eradicators are required. Outriders provide the only flex. Aggressors are more useful.

Could you reconstruct the list? Yea, I'm sure, but the immediate consequence is no BG.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 15:44:35


Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl


 Insectum7 wrote:
However that doesn't change the fact that this ancient and powerful artifact of a gun is worse than this new Primaris standard equipment. It's just another blip in the constant insult-to-other-factions that is Primaris.

It's the "old profile versus new profile" effect.
If Fire Dragon were introduced now, they'd be 2W 3+ 4++ models with a weapons that shots 1d3 shot at 18" S12 with straight up 2d6 damage. Or maybe 4d3 damage, even better.
Compare heavy bolter with rotor cannons, in the SAME unit (chaos havocs). One is old and one is new.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 16:10:33


Post by: Insectum7


 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
However that doesn't change the fact that this ancient and powerful artifact of a gun is worse than this new Primaris standard equipment. It's just another blip in the constant insult-to-other-factions that is Primaris.

It's the "old profile versus new profile" effect.
If Fire Dragon were introduced now, they'd be 2W 3+ 4++ models with a weapons that shots 1d3 shot at 18" S12 with straight up 2d6 damage. Or maybe 4d3 damage, even better.
Compare heavy bolter with rotor cannons, in the SAME unit (chaos havocs). One is old and one is new.
Oh? How does that theory hold up with the new Necron kits?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 16:12:41


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Slayerfan does not get it. You could halve the points value of Fire Dragons to make them competetive from a game standpoint. However that doesn't change the fact that this ancient and powerful artifact of a gun is worse than this new Primaris standard equipment. It's just another blip in the constant insult-to-other-factions that is Primaris.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
Spoiler:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Because when they were compaired to units the people do take the marine defenders just ignorred it or shifted the goalposts again to avoid having to justify why they should pay less for the same statlines as other armies without rerolls upon rerolls pay.

And don't give me the slayer logic of if you add a captains aura you have to include the point's of the captian in the unit as that's BS you can easily get 90%of a marine army covered by that CM aura for the first three turns or more with minimal skill.

Also so far these are basic unbuffed blade guard give them all the aura buffs and make the BA or WS and they go ham.

no I am saying if you wanna include the re-rolls you have to factor in the cost of the captain. doing otherwise is absolutely dishonest, especially when we know space marines will be limited to one captain per detachment. yeah maybe you can squeeze your entire army into a 6 inch radius, but you're not capturing many objectives while doing that

Bull you not capturing many objectives.

6 inches plus 20mm plus 32mmx4 +8 inches is the radious 1 CM and a 5man unit can cover plant him in the center of the board and your laughing. You can cover a 38 inch diameter circile with everyone under aura buffs on a 44 by 60 table.
That circile is enough to cover atleast half of the objectives in every GT pack mission FFS.

Seriously Marine player need to learn to play better not demand more OP primaracrap to cheese the game.



Ok I'll bite, what do you play?
I play Space Marines, and I agree with everything he posted. I spent nearly all of 8th edition with 80%+ of my army within CM+Lt reroll range.

It isn't like the Fire Pike was THAT good to begin with even in previous editions so...


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 16:14:35


Post by: Therion


This whole Blade Guard vs Custodes comparison doesn’t even take into account the fact that Blade Guard could even have a 5++ fnp from IH+chief, or advancing and charging as White Scars and doing flat 3 dmg each with ap -4 on turns 3, 4 and 5.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 16:18:13


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


LOL like the Super Doctrine matters at that point. You also can't just include those benefits if you won't do the same for Custodes.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 16:22:35


Post by: nordsturmking


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL like the Super Doctrine matters at that point. You also can't just include those benefits if you won't do the same for Custodes.

The custodes don't get any more benefits. Their 5++ is improved to 4++ by the chapter tactic like ability called the Emperor’s Chosen.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 16:24:31


Post by: Therion


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL like the Super Doctrine matters at that point. You also can't just include those benefits if you won't do the same for Custodes.


Marines have chapter tactics that make a difference and they’re active. If Marines don’t have their tactics and doctrines I guess the Custodes have a 5++ only then.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 16:25:38


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Therion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL like the Super Doctrine matters at that point. You also can't just include those benefits if you won't do the same for Custodes.


Marines have chapter tactics that make a difference and they’re active. If Marines don’t have their tactics and doctrines I guess the Custodes have a 5++ only then.

I was clearly referring to the Super Doctrines and HQ support.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 16:28:50


Post by: Therion


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Therion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL like the Super Doctrine matters at that point. You also can't just include those benefits if you won't do the same for Custodes.


Marines have chapter tactics that make a difference and they’re active. If Marines don’t have their tactics and doctrines I guess the Custodes have a 5++ only then.

I was clearly referring to the Super Doctrines and HQ support.


Advancing and charging, or 6++ fnp, are not super doctrines. Yet nobody accounted for any of that in this thread when comparing mobility or durability. But of course the army synergies should also be taken into account. But I didn’t even talk about stratagems. Marines have the Custodes beat there also.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 16:29:41


Post by: Insectum7


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Slayerfan does not get it. You could halve the points value of Fire Dragons to make them competetive from a game standpoint. However that doesn't change the fact that this ancient and powerful artifact of a gun is worse than this new Primaris standard equipment. It's just another blip in the constant insult-to-other-factions that is Primaris.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You'd have a point if Fire Dragons were worth using to begin with.


thank you Slayerfan. It's nice to see someone else gets it. Why are we comparing eradicators to a unit no one takes?

Because when they were compaired to units the people do take the marine defenders just ignorred it or shifted the goalposts again to avoid having to justify why they should pay less for the same statlines as other armies without rerolls upon rerolls pay.

And don't give me the slayer logic of if you add a captains aura you have to include the point's of the captian in the unit as that's BS you can easily get 90%of a marine army covered by that CM aura for the first three turns or more with minimal skill.

Also so far these are basic unbuffed blade guard give them all the aura buffs and make the BA or WS and they go ham.

no I am saying if you wanna include the re-rolls you have to factor in the cost of the captain. doing otherwise is absolutely dishonest, especially when we know space marines will be limited to one captain per detachment. yeah maybe you can squeeze your entire army into a 6 inch radius, but you're not capturing many objectives while doing that

Bull you not capturing many objectives.

6 inches plus 20mm plus 32mmx4 +8 inches is the radious 1 CM and a 5man unit can cover plant him in the center of the board and your laughing. You can cover a 38 inch diameter circile with everyone under aura buffs on a 44 by 60 table.
That circile is enough to cover atleast half of the objectives in every GT pack mission FFS.

Seriously Marine player need to learn to play better not demand more OP primaracrap to cheese the game.



Ok I'll bite, what do you play?
I play Space Marines, and I agree with everything he posted. I spent nearly all of 8th edition with 80%+ of my army within CM+Lt reroll range.

It isn't like the Fire Pike was THAT good to begin with even in previous editions so...
Fun fact: It used to be a 24" range Meltagun that could be taken by a model who could fire it twice. Hmm. . .


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 16:33:37


Post by: the_scotsman


 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
However that doesn't change the fact that this ancient and powerful artifact of a gun is worse than this new Primaris standard equipment. It's just another blip in the constant insult-to-other-factions that is Primaris.

It's the "old profile versus new profile" effect.
If Fire Dragon were introduced now, they'd be 2W 3+ 4++ models with a weapons that shots 1d3 shot at 18" S12 with straight up 2d6 damage. Or maybe 4d3 damage, even better.
Compare heavy bolter with rotor cannons, in the SAME unit (chaos havocs). One is old and one is new.


Right, like when they released those new kits for howling banshees and jain zar and -

-no wait, hold on.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 16:43:59


Post by: Gadzilla666


the_scotsman wrote:
Spoiler:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
However that doesn't change the fact that this ancient and powerful artifact of a gun is worse than this new Primaris standard equipment. It's just another blip in the constant insult-to-other-factions that is Primaris.

It's the "old profile versus new profile" effect.
If Fire Dragon were introduced now, they'd be 2W 3+ 4++ models with a weapons that shots 1d3 shot at 18" S12 with straight up 2d6 damage. Or maybe 4d3 damage, even better.
Compare heavy bolter with rotor cannons, in the SAME unit (chaos havocs). One is old and one is new.


Right, like when they released those new kits for howling banshees and jain zar and -

-no wait, hold on.

New kit, same old profile, just like the new csm models. Gw refuses to update the 3rd-7th unit profiles for the new rules, while new units get profiles that are designed to function within them. Old units are given strategems and points cuts instead, so what used to be an elite unit becomes chaff. This, of course, favors the faction that gets the vast majority of new units. Guess who that is.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 16:51:52


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Therion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Therion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL like the Super Doctrine matters at that point. You also can't just include those benefits if you won't do the same for Custodes.


Marines have chapter tactics that make a difference and they’re active. If Marines don’t have their tactics and doctrines I guess the Custodes have a 5++ only then.

I was clearly referring to the Super Doctrines and HQ support.


Advancing and charging, or 6++ fnp, are not super doctrines. Yet nobody accounted for any of that in this thread when comparing mobility or durability. But of course the army synergies should also be taken into account. But I didn’t even talk about stratagems. Marines have the Custodes beat there also.

And if you want to use the defensive bonuses for them when it comes to being shot go ahead.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 17:13:10


Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl


 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh? How does that theory hold up with the new Necron kits?

I don't know. I'm basing it on the kellermorph and the havoc rotor gun mostly.

the_scotsman wrote:
Right, like when they released those new kits for howling banshees and jain zar and -
-no wait, hold on.

It's not about new kit, it's about date of introduction of the rule. GW is very reluctant to change established profile. Look at the marines, they stacked bolter doctrines and shock assault onto them rather than change the bolter profile or give marines another attack on their profile. Sisters of Battle also staid with exactly the same profile when they got their new kits.
So things that existed in the rule a long time ago have weak profile, new stuff introduced recently in the rule has strong profile.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 17:28:45


Post by: Insectum7


 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh? How does that theory hold up with the new Necron kits?

I don't know. I'm basing it on the kellermorph and the havoc rotor gun mostly.

the_scotsman wrote:
Right, like when they released those new kits for howling banshees and jain zar and -
-no wait, hold on.

It's not about new kit, it's about date of introduction of the rule. GW is very reluctant to change established profile. Look at the marines, they stacked bolter doctrines and shock assault onto them rather than change the bolter profile or give marines another attack on their profile. Sisters of Battle also staid with exactly the same profile when they got their new kits.
So things that existed in the rule a long time ago have weak profile, new stuff introduced recently in the rule has strong profile.


New gun for Necron Warriors: Range 14" Rapid Fire 1 S5 AP-2
Old Warrior gun: Range 24" Rapid Fire 1 S4 AP-1

New weapon is a definite hard choice, but not flat-out superior as your theory would claim. 14" range is a biiiig limitation. I see this as a good example of genuine balance. I think the point costs are still unknown.

Eradicator Melta Rifle? Better in every way to every other Melta weapon. Just flatly superior by the looks of it.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 17:32:59


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


The Necron gun is supposed to be a free swap.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 18:13:27


Post by: catbarf


I do notice a bit of a difference in design philosophy between new Primaris units and new units for other factions.

Take the new transports introduced in 8th, for instance.

Primaris: Innate 4++, enemies get -2 to charge rolls, and a unique special rule to drop units off after moving.

AdMech: It's a flying Chimera that gives +1Ld to units within 3".

Like, one is comparable to existing units in the game, and the other gets unique and powerful special rules out of nowhere. It's not even a matter of points; it's just from a design standpoint Primaris don't seem to have any limits on what they can have or do. It's not universally a new profiles vs old profiles thing; it seems to matter much more who the profile is for.

Edit: Although for a contrary example, while not as egregious, Pteraxii having Assault 5 guns seems a little ridiculous.

Things were a lot simpler when you could reasonably infer that a non-character humanoid model had 1 wound and a rifle would get 2, maybe 3 shots. Some of the new profiles feel very... arbitrary is the right word, I guess. For starters, the relationship between what T, W, and Sv each represent on a model is a lot murkier than it used to be; now more armor sometimes gives you a better Sv, but sometimes it's higher T, or sometimes it's an extra W.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 18:28:59


Post by: Blood Hawk


The impulsor doesn't have an innate 4++. It only has that if you take an upgrade that increases the cost by about 25% and if you do you can't take any of the better guns. Most marine players I know didn't think the implusor was even competitive before the bladeguard were released.

Also the ability to drop off units after moving gave the impulsor the nickname locally of the suicide sled. Because any unit that took advantage of the rule always died the next turn.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 19:01:44


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 catbarf wrote:

AdMech: It's a flying Chimera that gives +1Ld to units within 3".


i fething wish


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 19:14:42


Post by: Daedalus81


 catbarf wrote:

Edit: Although for a contrary example, while not as egregious, Pteraxii having Assault 5 guns seems a little ridiculous.


That's the leader only and there's a lot more to that unit.

1 point less than an Intercessor -- M12 FLY WS3 BS3 S4 T3 W2 A2 4+/6++

+1A when charging
Deepstrike
"Fly High"
Canticles

In shooting -
Leader : 12" pistol 5 S3 AP0
Unit : 12" assault D6 S4 AP1; Auto-hit; Ignores cover

In melee on the charge -
Leader : 4 S6 AP0; Unmod 6s to hit cause 2 additional hits
Unit : 3 S5 AP1



Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 19:14:52


Post by: Dandelion


 catbarf wrote:


Edit: Although for a contrary example, while not as egregious, Pteraxii having Assault 5 guns seems a little ridiculous.
.


infiltrator flechette pistols already had 5 shots, so flechette carbines get 5 shots.

@Deadalus:
There’s 2 variants.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 19:24:40


Post by: Daedalus81


Dandelion wrote:
 catbarf wrote:


Edit: Although for a contrary example, while not as egregious, Pteraxii having Assault 5 guns seems a little ridiculous.
.


infiltrator flechette pistols already had 5 shots, so flechette carbines get 5 shots.

@Deadalus:
There’s 2 variants.


Yea, I mentally went to the melee ones, because...frikken' flamer.

The rooty-tooty-point-and-shooties are no less gifted. 3+ to cause a mortal wound on a vehicle they flew over (5+ otherwise) for each model.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 19:26:29


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Blood Hawk wrote:
The impulsor doesn't have an innate 4++. It only has that if you take an upgrade that increases the cost by about 25% and if you do you can't take any of the better guns. Most marine players I know didn't think the implusor was even competitive before the bladeguard were released.

Also the ability to drop off units after moving gave the impulsor the nickname locally of the suicide sled. Because any unit that took advantage of the rule always died the next turn.

Yeah if anything the Impuslor trying to use its ability for the Bladeguard just ensures they don't get into melee and just die.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 19:26:33


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 catbarf wrote:

Edit: Although for a contrary example, while not as egregious, Pteraxii having Assault 5 guns seems a little ridiculous.


That's the leader only and there's a lot more to that unit.

1 point less than an Intercessor -- M12 FLY WS3 BS3 S4 T3 W2 A2 4+/6++

+1A when charging
Deepstrike
"Fly High"
Canticles

In shooting -
Leader : 12" pistol 5 S3 AP0
Unit : 12" assault D6 S4 AP1; Auto-hit; Ignores cover

In melee on the charge -
Leader : 4 S6 AP0; Unmod 6s to hit cause 2 additional hits
Unit : 3 S5 AP1


So what are you saying here Daed? Are you just pointing out that other factions have units that are good in comparison to loyalists or agreeing that new units seem to get better data sheets than older units that existed in previous editions? I mean, I look at all that and compare it to raptors and assault marines and think .


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 19:48:07


Post by: Dandelion


Yeah, there does seem to be a trend of new units getting rules designed specifically for this edition, while older models hang on to legacy rules that happen to still apply, while losing ones that are no longer valid.

For example, kroot used to have 2 attacks because their gun had a good melee profile. They used to benefit from forest cover more than most units and could move through difficult terrain easily. They could also infiltrate in the same way as stealth suits. Now? They lost their second attack because no one could be bothered to give them A2 on their profile after stripping it from their gun, forests no longer do anything, difficult terrain doesn’t exist and their infiltrate got nerfed to being a scout move. At 4 points they were decent as speed bumps, which is hella boring. They just don’t bring anything unique to the table.

I would imagine many Eldar aspects fall into the same boat.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 19:55:46


Post by: Gadzilla666


Difficult terrain is back, that could offer an opportunity to bring back rules that allow units to ignore it. Chosen lost their ability to infiltrate as well, with no replacement. Old units only lose things, it seems.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 20:09:46


Post by: Daedalus81


 Gadzilla666 wrote:

So what are you saying here Daed? Are you just pointing out that other factions have units that are good in comparison to loyalists or agreeing that new units seem to get better data sheets than older units that existed in previous editions? I mean, I look at all that and compare it to raptors and assault marines and think .


That these are really good units and that Primaris are not the only ones being "gifted".

The Overlord got a 3" boost to his aura and it works on everything as opposed to just INFANTRY.
Necron Warriors picked up RR 1s on reanimate.
Scarabs went to always wounding on 5s to hit and wound on 6s to hit.

Primaris units don't have a plethora of super special rules. Each unit has one or sometimes two things it does extra. Eradicators double shoot. Aggressors double shoot or run and gun. Suppressors block O/W. Outriders get +2A on the charge. Inceptors do MW on the charge.

People are just very practiced at freaking out about marines, because of doctrines and traits.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 20:51:33


Post by: Void__Dragon


the_scotsman wrote:


One single S4 AP-1 D2 attack at 12" range = FAR SUPERIOR.


Yeah one extra attack with all attacks being higher quality and more likely to hit because of BS 2+.

So 33% more shots, with each shot being 100% higher damage and 25% more likely to hit constitutes "far superior" for its points compared to Bladeguard shooting. Which doesn't even consider the fact that their range is 33% higher.

Removed - Remember Rule 1 please


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 20:57:16


Post by: JNAProductions


Far superior in relation to garbage doesn’t mean it’s good.

Custodes can shoot. Custodian Guard... not so much. Not effectively, at least.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 21:37:19


Post by: Void__Dragon


 JNAProductions wrote:
Far superior in relation to garbage doesn’t mean it’s good.

Custodes can shoot. Custodian Guard... not so much. Not effectively, at least.


Consider debating points I actually made before posting my friend.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 22:22:33


Post by: Totto


I see a lot of the Indomitus units coming up on auction sites now, like Ebay, funnily enough the Eradicators, Outriders and Bladeguard seem much higher priced than the other contents in the box, and also seem to be selling at that pricepoint. I wonder why?

Also, here's one ranking of the armies in ninth:

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/07/40k-power-ranking-every-faction-in-9th-edition-chapter-tactics.html

Guess which army is on top?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 22:27:23


Post by: The Newman


shortymcnostrill wrote:
I do wonder which antitank unit we should be comparing eradicators to. Is there one to which they compare unfavorably? How do three of them with buffbots* fare compared to a shadowsword for example?

Leman Russ Demolisher with a hull LC vs four Eradicators. Same shot count, same damage, one less Ap but +2 S (mostly), one less BS but 10 fewer points, T8 vs T5 with the same total wounds but all in one basket. Marines and Guard both have access to some pretty silly levels of buff-stacking.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 23:19:58


Post by: Tyel


The Newman wrote:
shortymcnostrill wrote:
I do wonder which antitank unit we should be comparing eradicators to. Is there one to which they compare unfavorably? How do three of them with buffbots* fare compared to a shadowsword for example?

Leman Russ Demolisher with a hull LC vs four Eradicators. Same shot count, same damage, one less Ap but +2 S (mostly), one less BS but 10 fewer points, T8 vs T5 with the same total wounds but all in one basket. Marines and Guard both have access to some pretty silly levels of buff-stacking.


As I see it a Leman Russ Demolisher with hull LC is 10 points more?
And less accurate.
And probably has, on average, 4.5 shots compared with 8 versus most of the things you are going to shoot with that sort of weapon?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 23:24:00


Post by: JNAProductions


Tyel wrote:
The Newman wrote:
shortymcnostrill wrote:
I do wonder which antitank unit we should be comparing eradicators to. Is there one to which they compare unfavorably? How do three of them with buffbots* fare compared to a shadowsword for example?

Leman Russ Demolisher with a hull LC vs four Eradicators. Same shot count, same damage, one less Ap but +2 S (mostly), one less BS but 10 fewer points, T8 vs T5 with the same total wounds but all in one basket. Marines and Guard both have access to some pretty silly levels of buff-stacking.


As I see it a Leman Russ Demolisher with hull LC is 10 points more?
And less accurate.
And probably has, on average, 4.5 shots compared with 8 versus most of the things you are going to shoot with that sort of weapon?
They double-tap if they move less than half speed.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/30 23:28:52


Post by: The Newman


^^^ Yeah, the Russ averages 8 shots without support. ...it is 10 point more though, not sure how I did that wrong.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 01:52:42


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

So what are you saying here Daed? Are you just pointing out that other factions have units that are good in comparison to loyalists or agreeing that new units seem to get better data sheets than older units that existed in previous editions? I mean, I look at all that and compare it to raptors and assault marines and think .


That these are really good units and that Primaris are not the only ones being "gifted".

The Overlord got a 3" boost to his aura and it works on everything as opposed to just INFANTRY.
Necron Warriors picked up RR 1s on reanimate.
Scarabs went to always wounding on 5s to hit and wound on 6s to hit.

Primaris units don't have a plethora of super special rules. Each unit has one or sometimes two things it does extra. Eradicators double shoot. Aggressors double shoot or run and gun. Suppressors block O/W. Outriders get +2A on the charge. Inceptors do MW on the charge.

People are just very practiced at freaking out about marines, because of doctrines and traits.

Right, the new Admech jump infantry are good, they're also new. Gw seems reluctant to give new rules or stats to old units, even when they get new models like the aforementioned Banshees and csm. That's why it looks like primaris are always getting all the rules: they get the bulk of new models which get new rules. Gw needs to start updating older units so they can compete with the new ones, at minimum they should give them back some of the rules that they took away (why did my Chosen forget how to infiltrate?). As many have said, a big problem with the eradicators is how they look compared to older anti-tank infantry units. Eradicators wouldn't look as bad if multi-meltas were given improved rules. As I've said before, I don't want new units, I just want better rules for the units I already have. I think many would agree.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 01:59:33


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Your Chosen didn't forget how to infiltrate. They simply decided that was cowardly unless you decide you're Alpha Legion. FORGE THE NARRATIVE!


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 02:01:19


Post by: JNAProductions


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Your Chosen didn't forget how to infiltrate. They simply decided that was cowardly unless you decide you're Alpha Legion. FORGE THE NARRATIVE!
Getting closer to the enemy is cowardly?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 02:08:28


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 JNAProductions wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Your Chosen didn't forget how to infiltrate. They simply decided that was cowardly unless you decide you're Alpha Legion. FORGE THE NARRATIVE!
Getting closer to the enemy is cowardly?

Getting closer all sneaky like is cowardly compared to taking all the enemy's firepower! Those Chosen are actually Orks in disguise! FORGE THE NARRATIVE!


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 02:11:53


Post by: Daedalus81


Totto wrote:
I see a lot of the Indomitus units coming up on auction sites now, like Ebay, funnily enough the Eradicators, Outriders and Bladeguard seem much higher priced than the other contents in the box, and also seem to be selling at that pricepoint. I wonder why?

Also, here's one ranking of the armies in ninth:

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/07/40k-power-ranking-every-faction-in-9th-edition-chapter-tactics.html

Guess which army is on top?


They're going to be a higher price, because people don't need 3 captains or 3 judiciars, but they might want 9 outriders so to recoup cost the units that will sell will get higher prices.

Today Peteypab brings you all a way too early power rankings of all the 40k factions.


Yes, it is far too early, Petey. Especially since we know about a codex with trait updates at a minimum.





Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 02:15:36


Post by: Gadzilla666


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Your Chosen didn't forget how to infiltrate. They simply decided that was cowardly unless you decide you're Alpha Legion. FORGE THE NARRATIVE!
Getting closer to the enemy is cowardly?

Getting closer all sneaky like is cowardly compared to taking all the enemy's firepower! Those Chosen are actually Orks in disguise! FORGE THE NARRATIVE!

Sneaky? Cowardly? Have you heard of the Night Lords before?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 02:36:17


Post by: Daedalus81


 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Right, the new Admech jump infantry are good, they're also new. Gw seems reluctant to give new rules or stats to old units, even when they get new models like the aforementioned Banshees and csm. That's why it looks like primaris are always getting all the rules: they get the bulk of new models which get new rules. Gw needs to start updating older units so they can compete with the new ones, at minimum they should give them back some of the rules that they took away (why did my Chosen forget how to infiltrate?). As many have said, a big problem with the eradicators is how they look compared to older anti-tank infantry units. Eradicators wouldn't look as bad if multi-meltas were given improved rules. As I've said before, I don't want new units, I just want better rules for the units I already have. I think many would agree.


Havocs. CSM don't have much, sure. But neither do Intercessors. GW doesn't touch much old stuff until they redo the kits, but not everything will get extra rules.

Raptors have *a* special rule that sucks mostly because 18 points and no +2 to charge just doesn't make it useful at all. Everything but the basic stuff typically has a special rule or two. Primaris are no exception. You're just noting Primaris more, because they have a lot of releases and people are freaking out about some of the abilities. ( If Outriders didn't have +2A they'd be a bit of a joke. )

You won't get Raptors suddenly dropping bombs or extra charge range, because nothing justifies it in their fluff (I know, I know). What we'll probably see though is a new kit and some ability that interacts with attrition or a better LD mod ability. They won't suddenly become an amazing melee blender or super shooters.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 03:03:18


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Right, the new Admech jump infantry are good, they're also new. Gw seems reluctant to give new rules or stats to old units, even when they get new models like the aforementioned Banshees and csm. That's why it looks like primaris are always getting all the rules: they get the bulk of new models which get new rules. Gw needs to start updating older units so they can compete with the new ones, at minimum they should give them back some of the rules that they took away (why did my Chosen forget how to infiltrate?). As many have said, a big problem with the eradicators is how they look compared to older anti-tank infantry units. Eradicators wouldn't look as bad if multi-meltas were given improved rules. As I've said before, I don't want new units, I just want better rules for the units I already have. I think many would agree.


Havocs. CSM don't have much, sure. But neither do Intercessors. GW doesn't touch much old stuff until they redo the kits, but not everything will get extra rules.

Raptors have *a* special rule that sucks mostly because 18 points and no +2 to charge just doesn't make it useful at all. Everything but the basic stuff typically has a special rule or two. Primaris are no exception. You're just noting Primaris more, because they have a lot of releases and people are freaking out about some of the abilities. ( If Outriders didn't have +2A they'd be a bit of a joke. )

You won't get Raptors suddenly dropping bombs or extra charge range, because nothing justifies it in their fluff (I know, I know). What we'll probably see though is a new kit and some ability that interacts with attrition or a better LD mod ability. They won't suddenly become an amazing melee blender or super shooters.

I wouldn't expect much for basic csm or intercessors either: those are basic troops. But older elite, heavy support, and fast attack units should be able to compete with newer units. Everyone can't get the same number of new units as loyalists, gw doesn't have the capacity. They can, however, update rules pretty easily. The hardest part would be rebalancing the points.

But if you're going to bring up raptors and their fluff, that's easy, as we have a perfectly good, fluffy set of rules that could be applied to them from an existing gw game. Night Raptors from the Horus Heresy. Convert that data sheet over to 9th, it would be just as easy as converting the old 7th ed raptor data sheet over to 8th was. It would even work with the existing raptor kit (though you couldn't have Nostroman chainglaives). Gw simply need to look at their own games for inspiration on that one.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 03:13:00


Post by: Daedalus81


Yea no doubt, but then it becomes a situation of managing a lot of moving pieces and GW is not good at that. Doing a sweep across units would cause a ton of havoc.

If GW follows the format we'll see a base CSM book with supplements for the snowflakes and that release could easily be noise marines, bezerkers, raptors, and mutilators. Though TS and DG would make it weird where EC and WE deviate a lot less.

*shrug* Hopefully we'll see what's next before my country becomes a hellscape.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 03:25:35


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea no doubt, but then it becomes a situation of managing a lot of moving pieces and GW is not good at that. Doing a sweep across units would cause a ton of havoc.

If GW follows the format we'll see a base CSM book with supplements for the snowflakes and that release could easily be noise marines, bezerkers, raptors, and mutilators. Though TS and DG would make it weird where EC and WE deviate a lot less.

*shrug* Hopefully we'll see what's next before my country becomes a hellscape.

If you don't trust them to update existing units then how can you trust them with all of these new ones?

As to that other point, yeah, glad I'm already in the hills.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 05:34:09


Post by: Daedalus81


I don't trust they can juggle everything at once. In 3 years they put out ~60 books. That's a ridiculous schedule.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 08:20:47


Post by: Eipi10


 Aaranis wrote:
Honestly I probably will play one or two games against Marines to have fun with friends who play them, but if they stay as they are in their future codex and the others don't meet the same standards of creep I'm just not playing against Marines again. Had a 2v2 game once, AdMech + Chaos SM vs Ultramarines + Imperial Fists and it was the most unfun game I've ever played. Shoot the Aggressors/ ? They'll shoot back at you while dying with the Ancient behind. Try a charge ? Eat 500 bolter rounds to the face. Keep your distance ? LOL eat it just the same. We killed like 6 models and got almost tabled turn two. We're expected to have fun against that ?

Rules writer don't even know what's happening outside the SM codex when they're writing it, it doesn't surprise me they'd have units performing way better than similar units in other armies for way less.
Ice_can wrote:
Have Ultramarines, Knights and Tau.

Given up on the marines as they are too damn cheese it's no fun rofl stomping everyone even with a stupid list.

When people would rather play against a competitive Tau list or a Pure Knights list than a 30k/40k Marine list you know Marines is brokenness personified
A marine boycott‽ Sign me up. Otherwise I might consider running my custodian wardens as bladeguard.

Is it only primaris marines that are OP or are the normal marines also rediculous? You say your 30k derived list is strong, but all the marine netlists I see use mostly primaris.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 08:33:15


Post by: Not Online!!!


normal marines are not really an issue, still better then what most factons have but not to the point some primaris have gotten...


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 08:38:50


Post by: Bosskelot


Except some of the most powerfully broken units were not Primaris at all.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 08:39:29


Post by: Tyel


The Newman wrote:
^^^ Yeah, the Russ averages 8 shots without support. ...it is 10 point more though, not sure how I did that wrong.


Sorry about that - obviously too late in the day and forgot the Russ can shoot twice.

On New Models/Old Models - I think its just kind of random. GW comes up with rules they think are cool, and then throws a dart at points.
I think CSM players are kidding themselves that they won't eventually go down the Primaris Route - but this will be something GW want to sell. They are unlikely to wake up one day and go "meh, everything in power armour has 2 wounds now".

I think the Marines in Indomitus have all been priced aggressively. Its unclear however that the Necrons have.

I mean where are the threads about how massed Skorpekh Destroyers are going to scuttle over the meta?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 08:43:52


Post by: Ice_can


Normal Marine's with 1W did suffer a little more from the lethality of 8th but codex 2.0 overshot the buff marines needed.

Competition lists use Primaris as they were generally given better rules or payed less for the buffs they got.

The 30k vehicals actually got pretty decent rules from FW in there index (the advantage of them being written to balance vrs guard and eldar codex's) and had allowed me to carry marine 1.0 codex in a non tournament games and win a fair amount.

But codex 2.0 was just Free AP and Free rules. Like seriously AP -4 Lascannons is like invulnerable or HAha dead. Even just having AP -1 storm bolters etc made many units just vaporize.

Heck Marine's 2.0 were still post two rounds of nerfs hitting 60% win rates against non marine lists at the start of this year.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 08:47:21


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Bosskelot wrote:
Except some of the most powerfully broken units were not Primaris at all.


well, yeah, especially smash captains, but that has more to do with GW not caring about how many differing buffs and add ons and whistles you have influencing a unit.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 11:30:32


Post by: Gadzilla666


Tyel wrote:
The Newman wrote:
^^^ Yeah, the Russ averages 8 shots without support. ...it is 10 point more though, not sure how I did that wrong.


Sorry about that - obviously too late in the day and forgot the Russ can shoot twice.

On New Models/Old Models - I think its just kind of random. GW comes up with rules they think are cool, and then throws a dart at points.
I think CSM players are kidding themselves that they won't eventually go down the Primaris Route - but this will be something GW want to sell. They are unlikely to wake up one day and go "meh, everything in power armour has 2 wounds now"

I think the Marines in Indomitus have all been priced aggressively. Its unclear however that the Necrons have.

I mean where are the threads about how massed Skorpekh Destroyers are going to scuttle over the meta?

The release of the new kits in upscaled sizes that are still smaller than primaris doesn't seem to support "chaos primaris" (thankfully). I still wouldn't rule out things like cult troops and Chosen getting an extra wound, they need something to compete with the "good guys".

Ice_can wrote:The 30k vehicals actually got pretty decent rules from FW in there index (the advantage of them being written to balance vrs guard and eldar codex's) and had allowed me to carry marine 1.0 codex in a non tournament games and win a fair amount.

The initial Indexes were pretty well balanced against the non fw stuff, but ca 2018 nerfed a lot of fw stuff straight into the ground for no apparent reason. The index fellblade paid 50 points base over an index baneblade after factoring in the demolisher cannon being added into its cost (while the baneblade had to pay separately for its demolisher cannon), but ca 2018 jacked the price up 220 ppm (a 42% increase) with all the other super heavys taking similar hits, along with hits on other stuff.

The dreadnoughts seemed to do quite well, but the targeted nerfs at the hellforged leviathan and daredeo in the new ca, along with the moronic decision to price all the various contemptor models equally has me wondering about the new fw books. It was loyalist leviathans that were the big problem at the end of 8th, not the csm version, and daredeos were pretty important in a lot of csm armies. Hard not to see this as biased against csm.

Even with the "buffs" that some of the fw super heavys got in ca 2020 (some still got another increase) they're still massively overpriced, with the fellblade coming in at 285 base over a baneblade after factoring in the demolisher cannon (again, because gw can't be consistent with what wargear is free or not between various books).

I really want to see those new fw books.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 11:41:36


Post by: Ice_can


Yeah I was talking 8th edition loyalists, as even the FW stuff got the benifits of doctorines etc.

Yeah FW stuff has just felt neglected since GW took over their rules.
Heck even the stuff they produced new rules for Knights got seriously WTF points as they rewrote the entire datasheet and never touched the points, like could you make it more obvious you suck at your job?

Or do they simply not give a damn?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 12:17:57


Post by: Not Online!!!


they don't have to need to give a damn, so long people go forwards to defend them, just like with the recent pricehike , alot of people moan, but nothing really happens and those few that get kicked out due to monetary reasons get weighed up by the whales.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 12:39:08


Post by: Gadzilla666


Ice_can wrote:
Yeah I was talking 8th edition loyalists, as even the FW stuff got the benifits of doctorines etc.

Yeah FW stuff has just felt neglected since GW took over their rules.
Heck even the stuff they produced new rules for Knights got seriously WTF points as they rewrote the entire datasheet and never touched the points, like could you make it more obvious you suck at your job?

Or do they simply not give a damn?

Well, they apparently give a damn, just in the wrong direction, otherwise why did they take the time to do the ca 2018 nerf? It seems someone on the gw rules team just doesn't like fw, or at least the big stuff. How else do you explain the disparity between resin super heavy tanks and walkers vs the plastic ones? Really makes me worry what they're doing in those new fw books.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 14:46:44


Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl


 catbarf wrote:
Edit: Although for a contrary example, while not as egregious, Pteraxii having Assault 5 guns seems a little ridiculous.

Oh yeah, another good example of profile inflation.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 15:28:28


Post by: Daedalus81


Ice_can wrote:
Yeah I was talking 8th edition loyalists, as even the FW stuff got the benifits of doctorines etc.

Yeah FW stuff has just felt neglected since GW took over their rules.
Heck even the stuff they produced new rules for Knights got seriously WTF points as they rewrote the entire datasheet and never touched the points, like could you make it more obvious you suck at your job?

Or do they simply not give a damn?


The upcoming FW books are literally the first time GW is taking over FW rules. The upheaval on the FW team from the death of Alan Bligh didn't help.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 15:47:19


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
Ice_can wrote:
Yeah I was talking 8th edition loyalists, as even the FW stuff got the benifits of doctorines etc.

Yeah FW stuff has just felt neglected since GW took over their rules.
Heck even the stuff they produced new rules for Knights got seriously WTF points as they rewrote the entire datasheet and never touched the points, like could you make it more obvious you suck at your job?

Or do they simply not give a damn?


The upcoming FW books are literally the first time GW is taking over FW rules. The upheaval on the FW team from the death of Alan Bligh didn't help.

No, it isn't. Gw has handled the points updates since ca 2018, as well as recent erratas and FAQs, fw only did the original Indexes. Do I need to remind you of exactly what they did to the points for many fw models in ca 2018?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 16:04:57


Post by: Ice_can


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Yeah I was talking 8th edition loyalists, as even the FW stuff got the benifits of doctorines etc.

Yeah FW stuff has just felt neglected since GW took over their rules.
Heck even the stuff they produced new rules for Knights got seriously WTF points as they rewrote the entire datasheet and never touched the points, like could you make it more obvious you suck at your job?

Or do they simply not give a damn?


The upcoming FW books are literally the first time GW is taking over FW rules. The upheaval on the FW team from the death of Alan Bligh didn't help.

Nope Custodes was GW, Knights rewrite (firesale) was GW main studio too. FW haven't been allowed to touch 40k rules since they did a better job of their index's than GW did.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 16:18:38


Post by: JohnnyHell


Ice_can wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Yeah I was talking 8th edition loyalists, as even the FW stuff got the benifits of doctorines etc.

Yeah FW stuff has just felt neglected since GW took over their rules.
Heck even the stuff they produced new rules for Knights got seriously WTF points as they rewrote the entire datasheet and never touched the points, like could you make it more obvious you suck at your job?

Or do they simply not give a damn?


The upcoming FW books are literally the first time GW is taking over FW rules. The upheaval on the FW team from the death of Alan Bligh didn't help.

Nope Custodes was GW, Knights rewrite (firesale) was GW main studio too. FW haven't been allowed to touch 40k rules since they did a better job of their index's than GW did.


Did you... did you actually buy a FW Index? Because I did. And they were shockingly poor. Typos, things that didn’t marry up with the rules, missiles that replenished somehow and cost as much as lascannons, non-functioning things. Total mess.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 16:37:28


Post by: Daedalus81


 Gadzilla666 wrote:

No, it isn't. Gw has handled the points updates since ca 2018, as well as recent erratas and FAQs, fw only did the original Indexes. Do I need to remind you of exactly what they did to the points for many fw models in ca 2018?


Yea, they took on a ton more work unexpectedly and just propped it up on stilts. They kicked models into the stratosphere that probably should be kept to Apocalypse.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 16:40:17


Post by: Ice_can


 JohnnyHell wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Yeah I was talking 8th edition loyalists, as even the FW stuff got the benifits of doctorines etc.

Yeah FW stuff has just felt neglected since GW took over their rules.
Heck even the stuff they produced new rules for Knights got seriously WTF points as they rewrote the entire datasheet and never touched the points, like could you make it more obvious you suck at your job?

Or do they simply not give a damn?


The upcoming FW books are literally the first time GW is taking over FW rules. The upheaval on the FW team from the death of Alan Bligh didn't help.

Nope Custodes was GW, Knights rewrite (firesale) was GW main studio too. FW haven't been allowed to touch 40k rules since they did a better job of their index's than GW did.


Did you... did you actually buy a FW Index? Because I did. And they were shockingly poor. Typos, things that didn’t marry up with the rules, missiles that replenished somehow and cost as much as lascannons, non-functioning things. Total mess.

I'll take typo's on units that actually got rules I could use without being tabled vrs the GW pish that followed.
Also FW were very open from the drop of 8th the index's were a rush job and would not be to their usual standard, I bought them electronically and they were updated fairly quickly to fix a lot of the typo's


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 16:59:01


Post by: Stux


There were numerous errors in the FW index that were literally broken.

I dont mean overpowered. I dont mean silly. I mean they couldn't be parsed in the rules of 8e without house rules.

They were AWFUL books for rule writing.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 17:00:33


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

No, it isn't. Gw has handled the points updates since ca 2018, as well as recent erratas and FAQs, fw only did the original Indexes. Do I need to remind you of exactly what they did to the points for many fw models in ca 2018?


Yea, they took on a ton more work unexpectedly and just propped it up on stilts. They kicked models into the stratosphere that probably should be kept to Apocalypse.

Less unexpectedly than fw having mere weeks to get the Indexes done, and the same amount of time to come to grasps with the new rules for 8th, but fw still did it fairly well without copping out. Gw then had a full year between ca 2018 and ca 2019 and did nothing. And now it looks like they've only given them a cursory glance in ca 2020, pricing units by name instead of their rules.

And as far as "units that should be in Apocalypse", titans, obviously, but if Fellblades, Cerberus, Falchions, and the fw Knights should be relegated to Apocalypse then Baneblades, Wraithknights, and the plastic knights should go with them along with all other titanic units. Many make that argument, I didn't think you were one of them. I don't remember super heavys ever breaking the game in 7th, and they weren't a problem in 8th except for the initial Castellan build, maybe I was using mine wrong. They shouldn't be allowed below a 2000 point game, but other than that, I don't see the problem.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 17:12:08


Post by: the_scotsman


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

So what are you saying here Daed? Are you just pointing out that other factions have units that are good in comparison to loyalists or agreeing that new units seem to get better data sheets than older units that existed in previous editions? I mean, I look at all that and compare it to raptors and assault marines and think .


That these are really good units and that Primaris are not the only ones being "gifted".

The Overlord got a 3" boost to his aura and it works on everything as opposed to just INFANTRY.
Necron Warriors picked up RR 1s on reanimate.
Scarabs went to always wounding on 5s to hit and wound on 6s to hit.

Primaris units don't have a plethora of super special rules. Each unit has one or sometimes two things it does extra. Eradicators double shoot. Aggressors double shoot or run and gun. Suppressors block O/W. Outriders get +2A on the charge. Inceptors do MW on the charge.

People are just very practiced at freaking out about marines, because of doctrines and traits.


You know, the six to seven army wide special rules they get in addition to the crazy bs on their profiles that make 7th ed eldar pale in comparison. But don't worry, they dont have a plethora of special rules daed said so

Hey remember when fire dragons got +1 on the damage table on their melta guns? Shoot twice melta unit lololol.

Incidentally the first GT results just came in. 4/10 marine armies, 4/10 custodes armies in the top 10. Shocked pikachu face.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 18:53:11


Post by: Not Online!!!


the_scotsman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

So what are you saying here Daed? Are you just pointing out that other factions have units that are good in comparison to loyalists or agreeing that new units seem to get better data sheets than older units that existed in previous editions? I mean, I look at all that and compare it to raptors and assault marines and think .


That these are really good units and that Primaris are not the only ones being "gifted".

The Overlord got a 3" boost to his aura and it works on everything as opposed to just INFANTRY.
Necron Warriors picked up RR 1s on reanimate.
Scarabs went to always wounding on 5s to hit and wound on 6s to hit.

Primaris units don't have a plethora of super special rules. Each unit has one or sometimes two things it does extra. Eradicators double shoot. Aggressors double shoot or run and gun. Suppressors block O/W. Outriders get +2A on the charge. Inceptors do MW on the charge.

People are just very practiced at freaking out about marines, because of doctrines and traits.


You know, the six to seven army wide special rules they get in addition to the crazy bs on their profiles that make 7th ed eldar pale in comparison. But don't worry, they dont have a plethora of special rules daed said so

Hey remember when fire dragons got +1 on the damage table on their melta guns? Shoot twice melta unit lololol.

Incidentally the first GT results just came in. 4/10 marine armies, 4/10 custodes armies in the top 10. Shocked pikachu face.


ouch...


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 19:20:24


Post by: Gadzilla666


So who actually won? A Golden Banana Boy army or Loyalist Dogs?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 19:24:36


Post by: Eipi10


Ice_can wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Yeah I was talking 8th edition loyalists, as even the FW stuff got the benifits of doctorines etc.

Yeah FW stuff has just felt neglected since GW took over their rules.
Heck even the stuff they produced new rules for Knights got seriously WTF points as they rewrote the entire datasheet and never touched the points, like could you make it more obvious you suck at your job?

Or do they simply not give a damn?
The upcoming FW books are literally the first time GW is taking over FW rules. The upheaval on the FW team from the death of Alan Bligh didn't help.
Nope Custodes was GW, Knights rewrite (firesale) was GW main studio too. FW haven't been allowed to touch 40k rules since they did a better job of their index's than GW did.
IIRC, CA 2018 was the first time GW wrote FW rules, technically. I don't remember where I heard that, but it explains why they were so bad. Of course, keep in mind that the FW team was essentially just Alan Bligh and maybe two other people.

But back on point, it looks like competitive-breaking marines are primaris and/or the handful of broken FW vehicles out of the dozens that GW is determined to never let see the light of day. So I guess if you want to play fair marines, just take models that are listed in the 7th edition codex. Not that anyone seems to use non-FW normal marines anymore, aside from GK and maybe deathwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
So who actually won? A Golden Banana Boy army or Loyalist Dogs?
Once people have completed their indomitous bladeguard, the puppies will win. Each one is... You can read the rest of this thread, I won't repeat it.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 19:38:31


Post by: Gadzilla666


I was referring to the GT that The Scotsman was talking about. Yes, we all know that the new primaris stuff is good.

And stop badmouthing the fw rules team, then literally only had weeks to figure out the 8th edition rules and fit their stuff into it. I think what we got was pretty good considering. And it was a lot better than what gw gave us after they took over. I mean, we're talking about the same team that did the 7th ed Imperial Armour books and HH. Bligh was incredibly good, but he didn't do everything. Give them some credit.

Honestly, why couldn't they have just left the fw Indexes alone? Was a 697 point Fellblade really breaking the game? Compared to what the codex super heavys costed at the end of 8th?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 19:39:24


Post by: Daedalus81


the_scotsman wrote:


You know, the six to seven army wide special rules they get in addition to the crazy bs on their profiles that make 7th ed eldar pale in comparison. But don't worry, they dont have a plethora of special rules daed said so

Hey remember when fire dragons got +1 on the damage table on their melta guns? Shoot twice melta unit lololol.

Incidentally the first GT results just came in. 4/10 marine armies, 4/10 custodes armies in the top 10. Shocked pikachu face.


I acknowledge the layered rules. I'm just talking about unit design.

Who the hell is hosting a GT? How many players and how many were marine?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 19:50:37


Post by: TheAvengingKnee


 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


You know, the six to seven army wide special rules they get in addition to the crazy bs on their profiles that make 7th ed eldar pale in comparison. But don't worry, they dont have a plethora of special rules daed said so

Hey remember when fire dragons got +1 on the damage table on their melta guns? Shoot twice melta unit lololol.

Incidentally the first GT results just came in. 4/10 marine armies, 4/10 custodes armies in the top 10. Shocked pikachu face.


I acknowledge the layered rules. I'm just talking about unit design.

Who the hell is hosting a GT? How many players and how many were marine?


I’m curious as well, would love to see more detailed results.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 19:55:46


Post by: Gadzilla666


Lists would be nice. Did the loyalist players use any of the Indomutus units? That would be some serious speed painting if they did.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 20:01:42


Post by: Blood Hawk


TheAvengingKnee wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


You know, the six to seven army wide special rules they get in addition to the crazy bs on their profiles that make 7th ed eldar pale in comparison. But don't worry, they dont have a plethora of special rules daed said so

Hey remember when fire dragons got +1 on the damage table on their melta guns? Shoot twice melta unit lololol.

Incidentally the first GT results just came in. 4/10 marine armies, 4/10 custodes armies in the top 10. Shocked pikachu face.


I acknowledge the layered rules. I'm just talking about unit design.

Who the hell is hosting a GT? How many players and how many were marine?


I’m curious as well, would love to see more detailed results.


I found this using bing. https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2020/07/29/we-have-our-1st-9th-edition-tournament-results/

First place was roughly half marines and half sisters. 2nd place custodes, 3rd place GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Lists would be nice. Did the loyalist players use any of the Indomutus units? That would be some serious speed painting if they did.

According to what I found the first player did have eradicators and one squad of bladeguard. The rest of the list was old marines and sisters.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 20:21:33


Post by: Spoletta


Most of those lists were simply 8th lists adapted to 9th, but there are some interesting take aways.

No pure vanilla marines went 5-0 or 4-1. There is just one blood angel list that went 4-1, but from just one event and without knowing how many marines were there, this doesn't mean much.

The GK list that came third was a terminator spam list! The Custodes list that came second was also heavy on bananators. Could it be a theme?

The first list is a soup, and a marine soup none the less. A soup correctly used to cover the armies weaknesses, even if it costed CP and doctrines from 2 factions.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 20:28:44


Post by: Gadzilla666


Thanks Blood Hawk. Interesting to see soup still on the menu.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 20:32:42


Post by: TheAvengingKnee


 Blood Hawk wrote:
TheAvengingKnee wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


You know, the six to seven army wide special rules they get in addition to the crazy bs on their profiles that make 7th ed eldar pale in comparison. But don't worry, they dont have a plethora of special rules daed said so

Hey remember when fire dragons got +1 on the damage table on their melta guns? Shoot twice melta unit lololol.

Incidentally the first GT results just came in. 4/10 marine armies, 4/10 custodes armies in the top 10. Shocked pikachu face.


I acknowledge the layered rules. I'm just talking about unit design.

Who the hell is hosting a GT? How many players and how many were marine?


I’m curious as well, would love to see more detailed results.


I found this using bing. https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2020/07/29/we-have-our-1st-9th-edition-tournament-results/

First place was roughly half marines and half sisters. 2nd place custodes, 3rd place GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Lists would be nice. Did the loyalist players use any of the Indomutus units? That would be some serious speed painting if they did.

According to what I found the first player did have eradicators and one squad of bladeguard. The rest of the list was old marines and sisters.


Thanks for the link, it was interesting to see what people came up with, the marine/sister list spammed a bunch of relic contemptors, I am curious to see if they go up in points with the forge world books since they currently cost the same as the comtemptor Morris dreads with a much better statline and rules.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 20:37:35


Post by: Blood Hawk


TheAvengingKnee wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
TheAvengingKnee wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


You know, the six to seven army wide special rules they get in addition to the crazy bs on their profiles that make 7th ed eldar pale in comparison. But don't worry, they dont have a plethora of special rules daed said so

Hey remember when fire dragons got +1 on the damage table on their melta guns? Shoot twice melta unit lololol.

Incidentally the first GT results just came in. 4/10 marine armies, 4/10 custodes armies in the top 10. Shocked pikachu face.


I acknowledge the layered rules. I'm just talking about unit design.

Who the hell is hosting a GT? How many players and how many were marine?


I’m curious as well, would love to see more detailed results.


I found this using bing. https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2020/07/29/we-have-our-1st-9th-edition-tournament-results/

First place was roughly half marines and half sisters. 2nd place custodes, 3rd place GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Lists would be nice. Did the loyalist players use any of the Indomutus units? That would be some serious speed painting if they did.

According to what I found the first player did have eradicators and one squad of bladeguard. The rest of the list was old marines and sisters.


Thanks for the link, it was interesting to see what people came up with, the marine/sister list spammed a bunch of relic contemptors, I am curious to see if they go up in points with the forge world books since they currently cost the same as the comtemptor Morris dreads with a much better statline and rules.

My guess is that the relic rules will probably change. I would like to see something like 1 per detachment myself.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 20:38:43


Post by: Tyel


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Thanks Blood Hawk. Interesting to see soup still on the menu.


The list is a bit odd perhaps - but the survival of soup itself is not hugely surprising. I think quite a few people are agonising over a couple of CP. Certain factions really need them but others don't really. Or rather something like 9+1 a turn gives you plenty to play with. Especially if you start with some extra or have a way to generate an additional 1 each turn.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 20:43:30


Post by: TheAvengingKnee


 Blood Hawk wrote:
Spoiler:
TheAvengingKnee wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
TheAvengingKnee wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


You know, the six to seven army wide special rules they get in addition to the crazy bs on their profiles that make 7th ed eldar pale in comparison. But don't worry, they dont have a plethora of special rules daed said so

Hey remember when fire dragons got +1 on the damage table on their melta guns? Shoot twice melta unit lololol.

Incidentally the first GT results just came in. 4/10 marine armies, 4/10 custodes armies in the top 10. Shocked pikachu face.


I acknowledge the layered rules. I'm just talking about unit design.

Who the hell is hosting a GT? How many players and how many were marine?


I’m curious as well, would love to see more detailed results.


I found this using bing. https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2020/07/29/we-have-our-1st-9th-edition-tournament-results/

First place was roughly half marines and half sisters. 2nd place custodes, 3rd place GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Lists would be nice. Did the loyalist players use any of the Indomutus units? That would be some serious speed painting if they did.

According to what I found the first player did have eradicators and one squad of bladeguard. The rest of the list was old marines and sisters.


Thanks for the link, it was interesting to see what people came up with, the marine/sister list spammed a bunch of relic contemptors, I am curious to see if they go up in points with the forge world books since they currently cost the same as the comtemptor Morris dreads with a much better statline and rules.

My guess is that the relic rules will probably change. I would like to see something like 1 per detachment myself.


That would be pretty fair, I have a few relic units but would be cool with them limiting relics or even make it a max of 1 relic unit in each category so you could have a relic elite and heavy but not 2 elites, or 1 relic unit at certain point breaks so 1k and lower 1, 2k 2, 3k 3 etc...


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 20:44:58


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Blood Hawk wrote:
TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Spoiler:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
TheAvengingKnee wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


You know, the six to seven army wide special rules they get in addition to the crazy bs on their profiles that make 7th ed eldar pale in comparison. But don't worry, they dont have a plethora of special rules daed said so

Hey remember when fire dragons got +1 on the damage table on their melta guns? Shoot twice melta unit lololol.

Incidentally the first GT results just came in. 4/10 marine armies, 4/10 custodes armies in the top 10. Shocked pikachu face.


I acknowledge the layered rules. I'm just talking about unit design.

Who the hell is hosting a GT? How many players and how many were marine?


I’m curious as well, would love to see more detailed results.


I found this using bing. https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2020/07/29/we-have-our-1st-9th-edition-tournament-results/

First place was roughly half marines and half sisters. 2nd place custodes, 3rd place GK.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Lists would be nice. Did the loyalist players use any of the Indomutus units? That would be some serious speed painting if they did.

According to what I found the first player did have eradicators and one squad of bladeguard. The rest of the list was old marines and sisters.


Thanks for the link, it was interesting to see what people came up with, the marine/sister list spammed a bunch of relic contemptors, I am curious to see if they go up in points with the forge world books since they currently cost the same as the comtemptor Morris dreads with a much better statline and rules.

My guess is that the relic rules will probably change. I would like to see something like 1 per detachment myself.

So would I. More limitations would be nice. I mean, how is it your chapter/Legion has three of these super rare ancient relics? Limitations are good, HH proves that.

Also interesting to see that the loyalist/Sisters army won without any mono faction bonuses.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 20:56:05


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


There are limitations to be fair. Whether or not you think "you need another elite for each Relic Contemptor you take" is fair is a different story. Personally just from the price that's perfectly fair, as otherwise you'd be stuck using the garbage GW rules version that loses movement.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/07/31 21:14:00


Post by: Tyel


Actually think the worrying thing - which is obvious but perhaps its good to see it laid out explicitly - is how this could become secondaryhammer, at the top end, on the assumption that pushing your opponent off 2 objectives (mission dependent) is just too difficult (while, at least theoretically, devoting units to holding the other 4.)

With attrition being resurrected ITC kill more - with a reasonable chance of getting say 12 points with certain lists, if not the full 15, compared with other options that are incredibly hard to maximise and may not even get near.

Starting to see how Custodes can work. You just deny most of the killy secondaries, while giving a good chance of claiming attrition + any others depending on your opponents comp.

I guess there is a mechanical argument about how easy secondaries should be the claim, but sort of feels like there really needs to be the equivalent of gangbusters.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/01 03:25:20


Post by: Daedalus81


 Blood Hawk wrote:


I found this using bing. https://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2020/07/29/we-have-our-1st-9th-edition-tournament-results/

First place was roughly half marines and half sisters. 2nd place custodes, 3rd place GK.


But...Primaris?!

Only 10% of the armies were xenos, so yea, lots of marines would be expected in the top 10, but then one is soup and one is GK, which isn't exactly the "GW makes Primaris super awesome to win everything".

1) Imperial Soup
2) Custodes
3) GK
4) Eldar
5) BA
6) Custodes
7) IH w/ 9 dreadnoughts
8) Custodes
9) Custodes
10) CSM / Baby Knights / Daemons

And the rest:
GK, Custodes, Nurgle, DG, Custodes, UM, Imperium, White Scars, DG, UM, CK, AM & Custodes, Marines, Nurgle, Chaos, Sisters, BA, Chaos, Kraken, Tau



Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/01 06:21:39


Post by: Spoletta


Yeah, it was quite a poor showing for primarines.
5/31 vanilla marine lists and only one made it into the top 10... and contained almost no primaries.

But I wouldn't base conclusions on just a single event.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/01 07:29:39


Post by: Daedalus81


Spoletta wrote:
Yeah, it was quite a poor showing for primarines.
5/31 vanilla marine lists and only one made it into the top 10... and contained almost no primaries.

But I wouldn't base conclusions on just a single event.


Oh, I definitely won't. Despite the snarky disingenuous retorts towards people who say "wait for the rules, FAQs, points, etc", because the real goal is to play games and then assess.



Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/01 07:50:43


Post by: BrianDavion


I do think we can conclude from looking at the list that those who said 9th edition would likely favor more elite armies, are indeed being born out.

the winner apparently noted less people are relying on Aura stacking, which vindicates me as I was commenting earlier in the thread that Aura stacking would NOT be as easy. (this is going to especially be true if the limits on certain HQs per detachment we know is coming for Marines ends up being a thing common to many armies)

I expect it'll be about HQ placement and prioritization. reckongizing where your HQs need to be for maximum impact etc.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/01 08:00:31


Post by: Daedalus81


Side note...relics and spells on lists is soooo helpful for reading how it was played.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/01 08:10:00


Post by: Spoletta


BrianDavion wrote:
I do think we can conclude from looking at the list that those who said 9th edition would likely favor more elite armies, are indeed being born out.

the winner apparently noted less people are relying on Aura stacking, which vindicates me as I was commenting earlier in the thread that Aura stacking would NOT be as easy. (this is going to especially be true if the limits on certain HQs per detachment we know is coming for Marines ends up being a thing common to many armies)

I expect it'll be about HQ placement and prioritization. reckongizing where your HQs need to be for maximum impact etc.


Yeah, I cannot help but smile when I see people mathammering against primaries in 5++/5+++. Sure, like in this edition you can keep your army under a 3" aura...


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/01 08:13:42


Post by: Daedalus81


Looking at points scored there is definitely some skill gaps.

Also #1 has a fortification. That just feels weird.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/01 09:07:26


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Looking at points scored there is definitely some skill gaps.

Also #1 has a fortification. That just feels weird.


the new one or just random guaranteed cover?

also the list disgusts me, only IoM with one Eldar and one csm under top 10


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/01 09:08:52


Post by: Tyel


Spoletta wrote:
Yeah, I cannot help but smile when I see people mathammering against primaries in 5++/5+++. Sure, like in this edition you can keep your army under a 3" aura...


Just in case I've missed a FAQ - its 6" isn't it?
And pretty sure people will.
You have to move your blob into the centre of the table, to claim the central objectives by at least turn 3, but that's sort of how ITC/CA19 worked anyway at a top end, where your opponent would just play the objectives if you were intent on hiding in a corner for 5 turns. You are going to go second half the time, and having solid defences up for turn 1 and turn 2 makes sense.

Its going to be like Tau in 8th. Get it right and it should work really well. Don't, and you end up thinking they are mid, perhaps even weak faction that just doesn't work with the game.
Its probably the main skill in 40k.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/01 11:49:15


Post by: Spoletta


You can keep that kind of aura stacking on a unit, maybe 2. But if you really try to keep your army under the bubble, you have conceded the game.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/01 12:02:15


Post by: Eihnlazer


I love my custodes, and i certainly feel they are in a better place now than in 8th, but we are still majorly lacking in the amount of models we can put on the board.


Eradicators take a dump on us too.

The points i pay per model in my custodes army means that one unit of eradicators gets its points back in kills every turn that it shoots.

So even if they hold them off the board until turn 2, those 3 units of eradicators can come in and kill both my grav tanks fairly easily and mabey even take out a guard squad as well.

Thats basically all my long ranged firepower taken out by 9 marines that cost what, 28% of the marine army's points in one turn.

Since the only thing my army is good at is being durable, and to them nothing is durable, why do i only get to use 20 ish models to a marine armies 40-50 models?

That single datasheet invalidates most of my army.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/01 12:46:22


Post by: Matt.Kingsley


Not Online!!! wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Looking at points scored there is definitely some skill gaps.

Also #1 has a fortification. That just feels weird.


the new one or just random guaranteed cover?

also the list disgusts me, only IoM with one Eldar and one csm under top 10

It's the Battle Sanctum. It was already pretty good in 8th (but never really taken because of the detachment limits people played with and the opportunity cost of missing out on extra CP), but with the detachment changes in 9th it's only gotten better.
Free additional Miracle Dice for the Sisters.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 03:52:42


Post by: Eipi10


 Eihnlazer wrote:
I love my custodes, and i certainly feel they are in a better place now than in 8th, but we are still majorly lacking in the amount of models we can put on the board.


Eradicators take a dump on us too.

The points i pay per model in my custodes army means that one unit of eradicators gets its points back in kills every turn that it shoots.

So even if they hold them off the board until turn 2, those 3 units of eradicators can come in and kill both my grav tanks fairly easily and mabey even take out a guard squad as well.

Thats basically all my long ranged firepower taken out by 9 marines that cost what, 28% of the marine army's points in one turn.

Since the only thing my army is good at is being durable, and to them nothing is durable, why do i only get to use 20 ish models to a marine armies 40-50 models?

That single datasheet invalidates most of my army.
There is a strong argument to be made for simply refusing to play against anyone using eradicators and bladeguard, unless they agree to handicap them somehow by removing their double shoot or making their power swords D1 or something.

But I will say that our Custodes are always going to be low on models, complaining about it is like complaining that orks have poor BS. Custodes are probably in the best spot they have ever been in since the first models were released back in 7th, it's just that doesn't mean much when SM are so dominant. Although if you want to try to buff up your model count, you could try to include some SOS in your army. I've filled up a rhino with half flamers and half swords, it's cheaper than a squad of bikes but can really only prey on lone units, a glass cannon in a metal box.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 04:15:55


Post by: BrianDavion


I think forfitting the game because someone ahs a single blade guard vetern or eradicator squad is a little over the top.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 05:03:10


Post by: Gadzilla666


BrianDavion wrote:
I think forfitting the game because someone ahs a single blade guard vetern or eradicator squad is a little over the top.

And lame. How do you know whether you can beat them or not if you don't try?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 05:29:05


Post by: Apple fox


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think forfitting the game because someone ahs a single blade guard vetern or eradicator squad is a little over the top.

And lame. How do you know whether you can beat them or not if you don't try?


When it was scatbikes that was what happen to me with my eldar Lots of WAC thrown around online as well. Why i dont think its good for players, Sometimes i wonder if its the only way GW would get there act together on these sort of things.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 05:46:29


Post by: Void__Dragon


 Eihnlazer wrote:
I love my custodes, and i certainly feel they are in a better place now than in 8th, but we are still majorly lacking in the amount of models we can put on the board.


Eradicators take a dump on us too.

The points i pay per model in my custodes army means that one unit of eradicators gets its points back in kills every turn that it shoots.

So even if they hold them off the board until turn 2, those 3 units of eradicators can come in and kill both my grav tanks fairly easily and mabey even take out a guard squad as well.

Thats basically all my long ranged firepower taken out by 9 marines that cost what, 28% of the marine army's points in one turn.

Since the only thing my army is good at is being durable, and to them nothing is durable, why do i only get to use 20 ish models to a marine armies 40-50 models?

That single datasheet invalidates most of my army.
Custodes are top five strongest in the entire game, possibly top three.

A single Eradicator unit firing six shots at a Caladius Grav Tank on average is going to do 6-7 wounds. Two will do over 12 on average, with it requiring all three firing on it to have an above 50% chance to pop it in one shooting phase. If you use the Shadowkeeper strat when the Eradicators pop up to destroy your Caladius you can also then pop their strat to lower their guns to strength 7 so they're wounding you on 4s, dropping their average damage to 4-5. If they're in half range then obviously their odds go up, but even then on average they're not popping the grav tank with one double shoot. Two squads double shooting on average will pop it then, but then two squads of Eradicators costs slightly more than your Caladius.

As far as a Custodian Guard squad? You'll probably lose one model from six shots coming your way if you're running spear guard. If you're running storm shield guard you have better odds of surviving, but one unsaved wound on average will kill them. But it would be pretty bad luck to lose the entire squad.

Your entire army has at worst a 5++ on everything, including your vehicles. The Telemon has a 4++ and a 6+++ and on average is going to lose less than nine wounds, and that's only if all three Eradicator squads are firing on him. With the Shadowkeeper strat he's losing less than six on average.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 05:46:56


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Apple fox wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think forfitting the game because someone ahs a single blade guard vetern or eradicator squad is a little over the top.

And lame. How do you know whether you can beat them or not if you don't try?


When it was scatbikes that was what happen to me with my eldar Lots of WAC thrown around online as well. Why i dont think its good for players, Sometimes i wonder if its the only way GW would get there act together on these sort of things.

Imagine thinking either Bladeguard or Eradicators are even close to being the same level as Scatterbikes


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 06:06:25


Post by: Apple fox


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think forfitting the game because someone ahs a single blade guard vetern or eradicator squad is a little over the top.

And lame. How do you know whether you can beat them or not if you don't try?


When it was scatbikes that was what happen to me with my eldar Lots of WAC thrown around online as well. Why i dont think its good for players, Sometimes i wonder if its the only way GW would get there act together on these sort of things.

Imagine thinking either Bladeguard or Eradicators are even close to being the same level as Scatterbikes


Did not say they where in anyway. So, Read again. Was a comment about people, not the units.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 08:03:25


Post by: Bosskelot


Apple fox wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think forfitting the game because someone ahs a single blade guard vetern or eradicator squad is a little over the top.

And lame. How do you know whether you can beat them or not if you don't try?


When it was scatbikes that was what happen to me with my eldar Lots of WAC thrown around online as well. Why i dont think its good for players, Sometimes i wonder if its the only way GW would get there act together on these sort of things.

Imagine thinking either Bladeguard or Eradicators are even close to being the same level as Scatterbikes


Did not say they where in anyway. So, Read again. Was a comment about people, not the units.


Yeah, people who are relatively new to the game and want to use the models they painted and got from Indomitus sure are donkey-caves for running Eradicators and Blade Guard.

This site sometimes I swear.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 08:10:40


Post by: BrianDavion


generally one thing I've learned about Dakka is the natural reaction to a new unit is to scream it's OP and should be banned rather then discuss how to counter the unit.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 08:23:06


Post by: Apple fox


 Bosskelot wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I think forfitting the game because someone ahs a single blade guard vetern or eradicator squad is a little over the top.

And lame. How do you know whether you can beat them or not if you don't try?


When it was scatbikes that was what happen to me with my eldar Lots of WAC thrown around online as well. Why i dont think its good for players, Sometimes i wonder if its the only way GW would get there act together on these sort of things.

Imagine thinking either Bladeguard or Eradicators are even close to being the same level as Scatterbikes


Did not say they where in anyway. So, Read again. Was a comment about people, not the units.


Yeah, people who are relatively new to the game and want to use the models they painted and got from Indomitus sure are donkey-caves for running Eradicators and Blade Guard.

This site sometimes I swear.


Is this at me, I said i dont think its good for players. But that GW is often oblivious to the environments they create themselves.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 09:09:19


Post by: shortymcnostrill


 Void__Dragon wrote:
Custodes are top five strongest in the entire game, possibly top three.

A single Eradicator unit firing six shots at a Caladius Grav Tank on average is going to do 6-7 wounds. Two will do over 12 on average, with it requiring all three firing on it to have an above 50% chance to pop it in one shooting phase. If you use the Shadowkeeper strat when the Eradicators pop up to destroy your Caladius you can also then pop their strat to lower their guns to strength 7 so they're wounding you on 4s, dropping their average damage to 4-5. If they're in half range then obviously their odds go up, but even then on average they're not popping the grav tank with one double shoot. Two squads double shooting on average will pop it then, but then two squads of Eradicators costs slightly more than your Caladius.

A unit should not be capable of this kind of damage without some serious drawbacks. Two units firing at long range, without applying any of the reroll buffs that they are practically guaranteed to have at that distance, leave this tank on between 1-2 wounds on average. Two eradicator units cost 15 points more than the tank does.

They get a return of ~85% of their point cost in this scenario (again, no half range, no auras, no stratagems. Nothing invested by either player beyond points). The custodes player is very much fethed here. Units like these turn 40k into a coin flip.

Spoiler:

But Shorty, what about the Shadowkeeper strat?
Either bait the shadowkeeper strat by firing one unit at one tank and the other two at another, or focus all three squads and just power through for a "meagre" 63% return. Still well in coin flip levels of efficiency.

Also, since we're now adding 1cp and a cherrypicked chapter to the custodes, what do the marines get?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 11:01:59


Post by: Eihnlazer


Yes i exagerated a bit in my earlier post, but eradicators are far too efficient at what they do.

They are even stronger with white scars lists since they can advance and fire at no penalty. Or be inside an impulsor and get out after it moves and fire.

The only thing close to the damage output these guys can do from the range they can do it in was guided reapers on a doomed target.

There is litterally no reason they should get to shoot twice per gun at the range they have. The bonus for firing at the same target should have been either +1 to wound or 2d6 damage take the highest at full range instead of half.


There is a reason that a Land Raider armed with 6 multi-meltas isnt a thing, and yet three infantry can pack that much firepower for a cheaper price than said tank armed with bolters.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 11:53:50


Post by: Tyel


Mmmm. If you believe the Spoletta doctrine , that Eradicators won't be under a 5++/5+++ (or you can pull them apart from such buffs - difficult given the 24" range, but...) then I don't think they are *that* hard to kill.

Sure they are still miles better than comparable units full stop the end and should be at least 55 points per model - but its probably not the point where you should insta-quit the game if someone brings them.

As for the bladeguard... yeah. I mean I think they are too cheap for what you get - but as people have argued, they are arguably just a bit better custodian guard. And you wouldn't normally run away from them (even if Custodes are top tier now).


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 13:06:24


Post by: Dudeface


Tyel wrote:
Mmmm. If you believe the Spoletta doctrine , that Eradicators won't be under a 5++/5+++ (or you can pull them apart from such buffs - difficult given the 24" range, but...) then I don't think they are *that* hard to kill.

Sure they are still miles better than comparable units full stop the end and should be at least 55 points per model - but its probably not the point where you should insta-quit the game if someone brings them.

As for the bladeguard... yeah. I mean I think they are too cheap for what you get - but as people have argued, they are arguably just a bit better custodian guard. And you wouldn't normally run away from them (even if Custodes are top tier now).


This sums it up nicely, eradicators are too good but not end of the world, bladeguard are a bit too good but not enough to be massively scared, add some point tweaks and they'd be fine.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 13:27:35


Post by: Spoletta


Sorry but what you say and what you quote don't match.

Even if what Tyel says is true (and I disagree with it, they would be a balance issue even at 55 points. They would be too glassy and too cannony to be balanced), you are still saying that it is not a huge problem that an highly specialized unit is undercosted by 30% in a really popular faction.

Something like that completely warps the meta against the kind of unit that eradicators counter. It is a really really big issue for the game right now. It is cutrrently the top priority balance issue.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 13:48:25


Post by: Dudeface


Spoletta wrote:
Sorry but what you say and what you quote don't match.

Even if what Tyel says is true (and I disagree with it, they would be a balance issue even at 55 points. They would be too glassy and too cannony to be balanced), you are still saying that it is not a huge problem that an highly specialized unit is undercosted by 30% in a really popular faction.

Something like that completely warps the meta against the kind of unit that eradicators counter. It is a really really big issue for the game right now. It is cutrrently the top priority balance issue.


I'm curious where your view on them ending up is. If you bin off the shoot twice at 40ppm they will never see play, if you made then tankier at 55pts, how tanky do they need to be to offset the glass cannon point and become justifiable? Shave 6" off the range might do the trick perhaps?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 14:23:43


Post by: Spoletta


The damage per point is too high, you have to act on that. A single multimelta shot for 40 points isn't really that good, I agree. Changing the ability to Reroll wounds though, could do the trick. At that point they would be fine at 45, same cost of aggressors.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 15:01:00


Post by: Dudeface


Spoletta wrote:
The damage per point is too high, you have to act on that. A single multimelta shot for 40 points isn't really that good, I agree. Changing the ability to Reroll wounds though, could do the trick. At that point they would be fine at 45, same cost of aggressors.


135 points to do 5 wounds to a russ or 72.6 points of damage assuming its a bare bones battle tank seems meh stand alone. It's certainly closer to where they want to be if you factor some buffs in.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 15:03:48


Post by: JNAProductions


Dudeface wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The damage per point is too high, you have to act on that. A single multimelta shot for 40 points isn't really that good, I agree. Changing the ability to Reroll wounds though, could do the trick. At that point they would be fine at 45, same cost of aggressors.


135 points to do 5 wounds to a russ or 72.6 points of damage assuming its a bare bones battle tank seems meh stand alone. It's certainly closer to where they want to be if you factor some buffs in.
Do we really want a 50% return on damage to be the baseline of what's considered good for a pretty dang durable unit?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 15:13:52


Post by: Dudeface


 JNAProductions wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The damage per point is too high, you have to act on that. A single multimelta shot for 40 points isn't really that good, I agree. Changing the ability to Reroll wounds though, could do the trick. At that point they would be fine at 45, same cost of aggressors.


135 points to do 5 wounds to a russ or 72.6 points of damage assuming its a bare bones battle tank seems meh stand alone. It's certainly closer to where they want to be if you factor some buffs in.
Do we really want a 50% return on damage to be the baseline of what's considered good for a pretty dang durable unit?


Bearing in mind that's their main purpose sure, they're completely wasted against infantry blobs at that point.

Let me rephrase, if the unit that is only good at killing single large models makes half its points back per volley against it's ideal target type, is that a horrendous outcome?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 15:22:29


Post by: JNAProductions


Dudeface wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The damage per point is too high, you have to act on that. A single multimelta shot for 40 points isn't really that good, I agree. Changing the ability to Reroll wounds though, could do the trick. At that point they would be fine at 45, same cost of aggressors.


135 points to do 5 wounds to a russ or 72.6 points of damage assuming its a bare bones battle tank seems meh stand alone. It's certainly closer to where they want to be if you factor some buffs in.
Do we really want a 50% return on damage to be the baseline of what's considered good for a pretty dang durable unit?


Bearing in mind that's their main purpose sure, they're completely wasted against infantry blobs at that point.

Let me rephrase, if the unit that is only good at killing single large models makes half its points back per volley against it's ideal target type, is that a horrendous outcome?
Considering that something close to its ideal (big, beefy targets-the only non-ideal part is that a lot have invulns) are pretty common... Yeah, that kinda is.

Especially since they're NOT glass cannons, and they have massive access to force multipliers-they've got three T5 wounds each, and have access to all the Marine goodies. They're not a unit that's trivial to wipe out, and you can up their damage pretty easily.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 15:56:16


Post by: Dudeface


 JNAProductions wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The damage per point is too high, you have to act on that. A single multimelta shot for 40 points isn't really that good, I agree. Changing the ability to Reroll wounds though, could do the trick. At that point they would be fine at 45, same cost of aggressors.


135 points to do 5 wounds to a russ or 72.6 points of damage assuming its a bare bones battle tank seems meh stand alone. It's certainly closer to where they want to be if you factor some buffs in.
Do we really want a 50% return on damage to be the baseline of what's considered good for a pretty dang durable unit?


Bearing in mind that's their main purpose sure, they're completely wasted against infantry blobs at that point.

Let me rephrase, if the unit that is only good at killing single large models makes half its points back per volley against it's ideal target type, is that a horrendous outcome?
Considering that something close to its ideal (big, beefy targets-the only non-ideal part is that a lot have invulns) are pretty common... Yeah, that kinda is.

Especially since they're NOT glass cannons, and they have massive access to force multipliers-they've got three T5 wounds each, and have access to all the Marine goodies. They're not a unit that's trivial to wipe out, and you can up their damage pretty easily.


So you propose them having no special rules or changes at all, you'd accept them at 45 points with a single shot multimelta as a valid competitive option?

Edit bear in mind 55 points gets you an attack bike with 4 t5 wounds and a pair of bolters extra that move significantly faster and they're never seen.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 16:10:59


Post by: Ice_can


Well we don't know if they would have been taken in 9th as they never had targets in 8th.
They also spent all of 8th hitting on 4's not 3's

These guys were clearly not appropriately pointed for the rules they have been given.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 16:16:19


Post by: Insectum7


Dudeface wrote:
Spoiler:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The damage per point is too high, you have to act on that. A single multimelta shot for 40 points isn't really that good, I agree. Changing the ability to Reroll wounds though, could do the trick. At that point they would be fine at 45, same cost of aggressors.


135 points to do 5 wounds to a russ or 72.6 points of damage assuming its a bare bones battle tank seems meh stand alone. It's certainly closer to where they want to be if you factor some buffs in.
Do we really want a 50% return on damage to be the baseline of what's considered good for a pretty dang durable unit?


Bearing in mind that's their main purpose sure, they're completely wasted against infantry blobs at that point.

Let me rephrase, if the unit that is only good at killing single large models makes half its points back per volley against it's ideal target type, is that a horrendous outcome?
Considering that something close to its ideal (big, beefy targets-the only non-ideal part is that a lot have invulns) are pretty common... Yeah, that kinda is.

Especially since they're NOT glass cannons, and they have massive access to force multipliers-they've got three T5 wounds each, and have access to all the Marine goodies. They're not a unit that's trivial to wipe out, and you can up their damage pretty easily.


So you propose them having no special rules or changes at all, you'd accept them at 45 points with a single shot multimelta as a valid competitive option?

Edit bear in mind 55 points gets you an attack bike with 4 t5 wounds and a pair of bolters extra that move significantly faster and they're never seen.
And 35 points for a 1W T4 model with a Multimelta.

Can't protect the Attack Bike in a transport or take cover in a bunch of terrain, I think.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/02 16:23:49


Post by: JNAProductions


Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
The damage per point is too high, you have to act on that. A single multimelta shot for 40 points isn't really that good, I agree. Changing the ability to Reroll wounds though, could do the trick. At that point they would be fine at 45, same cost of aggressors.


135 points to do 5 wounds to a russ or 72.6 points of damage assuming its a bare bones battle tank seems meh stand alone. It's certainly closer to where they want to be if you factor some buffs in.
Do we really want a 50% return on damage to be the baseline of what's considered good for a pretty dang durable unit?


Bearing in mind that's their main purpose sure, they're completely wasted against infantry blobs at that point.

Let me rephrase, if the unit that is only good at killing single large models makes half its points back per volley against it's ideal target type, is that a horrendous outcome?
Considering that something close to its ideal (big, beefy targets-the only non-ideal part is that a lot have invulns) are pretty common... Yeah, that kinda is.

Especially since they're NOT glass cannons, and they have massive access to force multipliers-they've got three T5 wounds each, and have access to all the Marine goodies. They're not a unit that's trivial to wipe out, and you can up their damage pretty easily.


So you propose them having no special rules or changes at all, you'd accept them at 45 points with a single shot multimelta as a valid competitive option?

Edit bear in mind 55 points gets you an attack bike with 4 t5 wounds and a pair of bolters extra that move significantly faster and they're never seen.
My point is that, across the board, lethality is too high.

Tone down offense everywhere. Marines are especially bad, but they're not the only ones.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 00:26:08


Post by: Eipi10


Tyel wrote:
Mmmm. If you believe the Spoletta doctrine , that Eradicators won't be under a 5++/5+++ (or you can pull them apart from such buffs - difficult given the 24" range, but...) then I don't think they are *that* hard to kill.

Sure they are still miles better than comparable units full stop the end and should be at least 55 points per model - but its probably not the point where you should insta-quit the game if someone brings them.

As for the bladeguard... yeah. I mean I think they are too cheap for what you get - but as people have argued, they are arguably just a bit better custodian guard. And you wouldn't normally run away from them (even if Custodes are top tier now).
To address the bladeguard, yes each one is just a bit better (constant damage 4 attacks at WS 3+ vs random damage 3 attacks at WS 2+), but they are about 70% the cost. Give them normal power swords or two wounds each and they'd be fine


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 00:41:31


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Normal Power Swords would be useless on a unit that expensive.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 05:49:01


Post by: Eipi10


Units who are that tough with 2D weapons come in at 50 points. The new destroyers, for example, don't have an invuln so are substantially less durable than similar melee units, they are almost a glass cannon.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 06:35:07


Post by: Karol


Well one should not compare stuff to bad pointed units. and second thing that is important is the fact that in the necron stuff, it they stand up, just like almost the whole necron army.

They are a 3 man unit, which needs a transport to work and every death hurts them a lot.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 07:38:28


Post by: Spoletta


 Eipi10 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Mmmm. If you believe the Spoletta doctrine , that Eradicators won't be under a 5++/5+++ (or you can pull them apart from such buffs - difficult given the 24" range, but...) then I don't think they are *that* hard to kill.

Sure they are still miles better than comparable units full stop the end and should be at least 55 points per model - but its probably not the point where you should insta-quit the game if someone brings them.

As for the bladeguard... yeah. I mean I think they are too cheap for what you get - but as people have argued, they are arguably just a bit better custodian guard. And you wouldn't normally run away from them (even if Custodes are top tier now).
To address the bladeguard, yes each one is just a bit better (constant damage 4 attacks at WS 3+ vs random damage 3 attacks at WS 2+), but they are about 70% the cost. Give them normal power swords or two wounds each and they'd be fine


While the total package is probably better for the Veterans, let's not give false numbers.

Custodes have a ranged attack, +1S and +1T over veterans. They are obviously going to cost more.
Yeah sure, in a direct fight Veterans win on equal points, but that doesn't actual mean anything in mathammer terms. Putting one unit against another one in a direct fight has always been a bad habit of this board, but it actually carries zero value. Units are evaluated at what they are supposed to do. For example, for keeping an objective Custodes are surely better due to that +1T and Obsec. 14 point better? That can be discussed.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 13:27:35


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


 Eihnlazer wrote:
Yes i exagerated a bit in my earlier post, but eradicators are far too efficient at what they do.

They are even stronger with white scars lists since they can advance and fire at no penalty. Or be inside an impulsor and get out after it moves and fire.

The only thing close to the damage output these guys can do from the range they can do it in was guided reapers on a doomed target.

There is litterally no reason they should get to shoot twice per gun at the range they have. The bonus for firing at the same target should have been either +1 to wound or 2d6 damage take the highest at full range instead of half.


There is a reason that a Land Raider armed with 6 multi-meltas isnt a thing, and yet three infantry can pack that much firepower for a cheaper price than said tank armed with bolters.


I'm afraid that Impulsors cannot transport Gravis Mk X units and therefore Eradicators cannot embark on them.

More generally, I am excited that the new Primaris units favour moving forward as opposed to sitting still and shooting.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 13:50:13


Post by: TheAvengingKnee


TangoTwoBravo wrote:


More generally, I am excited that the new Primaris units favour moving forward as opposed to sitting still and shooting.



That is a positive point, in the games I’ve played of 9th, sitting back in a gunline feels like a bad idea every time, moving up and fighting feels a lot better. The new missions favoring leaving your deployment zone and new cover rules made my gunline not always the best option and not just sitting in reroll bubbles made my opponents a lot happier. I am starting to work on my lists to adapt to the new captain and lieutenant limit leaks.

I changed my custom marine chapter to use the BA rules so I don’t have the chapter master strat for full rerolls and I stopped using as much shooting and focusing on a lot more units that do both shooting and melee, my regular opponents seem to like my change to BA as they aren’t as broken as some of the other marines.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 14:10:27


Post by: Spoletta


TheAvengingKnee wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:


More generally, I am excited that the new Primaris units favour moving forward as opposed to sitting still and shooting.



That is a positive point, in the games I’ve played of 9th, sitting back in a gunline feels like a bad idea every time, moving up and fighting feels a lot better. The new missions favoring leaving your deployment zone and new cover rules made my gunline not always the best option and not just sitting in reroll bubbles made my opponents a lot happier. I am starting to work on my lists to adapt to the new captain and lieutenant limit leaks.

I changed my custom marine chapter to use the BA rules so I don’t have the chapter master strat for full rerolls and I stopped using as much shooting and focusing on a lot more units that do both shooting and melee, my regular opponents seem to like my change to BA as they aren’t as broken as some of the other marines.


Actually if you look at BCP results, marines are performing quite bad, but BA are going strong

No, I'm not serious before someone jumps on my throath for that.

We can't really conclude anything from just a dozen or so small event results.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 14:18:06


Post by: TheAvengingKnee


Spoletta wrote:
TheAvengingKnee wrote:
TangoTwoBravo wrote:


More generally, I am excited that the new Primaris units favour moving forward as opposed to sitting still and shooting.



That is a positive point, in the games I’ve played of 9th, sitting back in a gunline feels like a bad idea every time, moving up and fighting feels a lot better. The new missions favoring leaving your deployment zone and new cover rules made my gunline not always the best option and not just sitting in reroll bubbles made my opponents a lot happier. I am starting to work on my lists to adapt to the new captain and lieutenant limit leaks.

I changed my custom marine chapter to use the BA rules so I don’t have the chapter master strat for full rerolls and I stopped using as much shooting and focusing on a lot more units that do both shooting and melee, my regular opponents seem to like my change to BA as they aren’t as broken as some of the other marines.


Actually if you look at BCP results, marines are performing quite bad, but BA are going strong

No, I'm not serious before someone jumps on my throath for that.

We can't really conclude anything from just a dozen or so small event results.


Not having the chapter master strat definitely seems to elicit a lot less bitching and whining from my normal opponents, even if I don’t use it they seem to hate that I have it. A few of my normal opponents are a bit toxic.

I am honestly hoping they kill the CM strat with the upcoming codex for marines, the max -1 after all modifiers to hit rolls makes it a lot less needed.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 15:35:09


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Karol wrote:
Well one should not compare stuff to bad pointed units. and second thing that is important is the fact that in the necron stuff, it they stand up, just like almost the whole necron army.

They are a 3 man unit, which needs a transport to work and every death hurts them a lot.

Yeah, the melee Destroyers really aren't that good, so saying that Bladeguard outperform them honestly doesn't say anything.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 15:40:20


Post by: Tyel


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well one should not compare stuff to bad pointed units. and second thing that is important is the fact that in the necron stuff, it they stand up, just like almost the whole necron army.

They are a 3 man unit, which needs a transport to work and every death hurts them a lot.

Yeah, the melee Destroyers really aren't that good, so saying that Bladeguard outperform them honestly doesn't say anything.


It is said codex creep is like a tree.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 16:15:27


Post by: Karol


Not sure I can imagine it. To me it often seems random. I like the Atticus theory of two teams, one doing a pro codex and one doing a for fun one.

The csm book for example, is unexplainable, if one assumes GW is trying to balance armies, or even make books that are fun to play.

GW design goes way above my ability to understand stuff. Who knows maybe they plan things 5 years in advance or they really want people to play 1-2 w40k army, 1-2 AoS army , side games and on top of it paint or read books as a basic hobby starter pack. And wanting to have one army, and to have fun with it is just a fool thing to do. Only GW and people that work for them know.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 16:30:04


Post by: Daedalus81


Spoletta wrote:


Actually if you look at BCP results, marines are performing quite bad, but BA are going strong

No, I'm not serious before someone jumps on my throath for that.

We can't really conclude anything from just a dozen or so small event results.


I do find it amusing that no one wants to talk about the buggy Orks taking 1st and DE 3rd in a 42 player tournament as quickly though.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 17:20:31


Post by: Xenomancers


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:


Actually if you look at BCP results, marines are performing quite bad, but BA are going strong

No, I'm not serious before someone jumps on my throath for that.

We can't really conclude anything from just a dozen or so small event results.


I do find it amusing that no one wants to talk about the buggy Orks taking 1st and DE 3rd in a 42 player tournament as quickly though.

Theyd hate to admit I was right. HAHA. Really though you should be seeing a lot more of these type lists.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 17:22:24


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Tyel wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well one should not compare stuff to bad pointed units. and second thing that is important is the fact that in the necron stuff, it they stand up, just like almost the whole necron army.

They are a 3 man unit, which needs a transport to work and every death hurts them a lot.

Yeah, the melee Destroyers really aren't that good, so saying that Bladeguard outperform them honestly doesn't say anything.


It is said codex creep is like a tree.

That is often the case, but I wouldn't use the new melee Destroyers in the last Necron codex if they were an option so I don't see your point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:


Actually if you look at BCP results, marines are performing quite bad, but BA are going strong

No, I'm not serious before someone jumps on my throath for that.

We can't really conclude anything from just a dozen or so small event results.


I do find it amusing that no one wants to talk about the buggy Orks taking 1st and DE 3rd in a 42 player tournament as quickly though.

Theyd hate to admit I was right. HAHA. Really though you should be seeing a lot more of these type lists.

It happens ONCE so far so you're not right.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 17:25:45


Post by: Xenomancers


Well and to be fair I figured theyd use more squigg buggies. All the buggies are really good though. Realistically with 9th edd being a turn shorter the emphasis really is on mobility.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eradicators seem a little under pointed. They should probably be 50 points. However - their transport options are overpointed significantly so you are forced to put them on foot. I would be more than happy to see repulsors drop in price and they can fix eradicators. How in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 22:38:08


Post by: Totto


Custodes are top five strongest in the entire game, possibly top three.


Are these rankings valid for 1K games as well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:
generally one thing I've learned about Dakka is the natural reaction to a new unit is to scream it's OP and should be banned rather then discuss how to counter the unit.


Funnily enough, I have yet to see anyone doing that for the new Necron units?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/03 22:41:02


Post by: Daedalus81


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:


Actually if you look at BCP results, marines are performing quite bad, but BA are going strong

No, I'm not serious before someone jumps on my throath for that.

We can't really conclude anything from just a dozen or so small event results.


I do find it amusing that no one wants to talk about the buggy Orks taking 1st and DE 3rd in a 42 player tournament as quickly though.

Theyd hate to admit I was right. HAHA. Really though you should be seeing a lot more of these type lists.


They're not squiggly buggies you goof. I just call all of them buggies.



Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 00:13:40


Post by: Eipi10


Karol wrote:
Well one should not compare stuff to bad pointed units. and second thing that is important is the fact that in the necron stuff, it they stand up, just like almost the whole necron army.

They are a 3 man unit, which needs a transport to work and every death hurts them a lot.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah, the melee Destroyers really aren't that good, so saying that Bladeguard outperform them honestly doesn't say anything.
TIL that Bullgryns, GK paladins, and Custodian Guard are all bad pointed units.

The hubris of primaris marine players with indomitus is unlike anything I've seen in 40k since I've followed the meta. Even with battle company, shining spear spam, or the Castellan triumvirate, possessed bomb + plauge bearers, and even SM codex 2.0 + supplements, the players would admit that it was broken, the only way their army could be competitive, that they haven't been good in a long time, or that they simply like to win. But it seems like this time around primaris players are almost entirely unapologetic. They could at least say the army needs some tough melee unit and yes it should be ten more points to be more inline with the sister unit released at the same time and filling the same niche, but instead there is some kind of glee that primaris marines are going to be even betterer, or even going as far as to say woe is us for needing to take a transport to make the best use of our OP units. Custodes and don't even have a viable transport.

Spoletta wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Mmmm. If you believe the Spoletta doctrine , that Eradicators won't be under a 5++/5+++ (or you can pull them apart from such buffs - difficult given the 24" range, but...) then I don't think they are *that* hard to kill.

Sure they are still miles better than comparable units full stop the end and should be at least 55 points per model - but its probably not the point where you should insta-quit the game if someone brings them.

As for the bladeguard... yeah. I mean I think they are too cheap for what you get - but as people have argued, they are arguably just a bit better custodian guard. And you wouldn't normally run away from them (even if Custodes are top tier now).
To address the bladeguard, yes each one is just a bit better (constant damage 4 attacks at WS 3+ vs random damage 3 attacks at WS 2+), but they are about 70% the cost. Give them normal power swords or two wounds each and they'd be fine


While the total package is probably better for the Veterans, let's not give false numbers.

Custodes have a ranged attack, +1S and +1T over veterans. They are obviously going to cost more.
Yeah sure, in a direct fight Veterans win on equal points, but that doesn't actual mean anything in mathammer terms. Putting one unit against another one in a direct fight has always been a bad habit of this board, but it actually carries zero value. Units are evaluated at what they are supposed to do. For example, for keeping an objective Custodes are surely better due to that +1T and Obsec. 14 point better? That can be discussed.
S6 to S5 is the least significant strength change in the game for changes under S10, +1T is a small condolence when so much of these unit's durability comes from THP/AGA, and it's not like SM are hurting for obsec with all their troop choices. In fact, bladeguard are far superior for holding objectives because they are only 105 points a squad. When you start comparing the token shooting attacks on overwhelmingly melee-oriented units, you should know you are grasping at straws to defend the undefendable.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 01:46:53


Post by: catbarf


 Eipi10 wrote:
TIL that Bullgryns, GK paladins, and Custodian Guard are all bad pointed units.


I think it's pretty telling how you can name basically any Marine unit that overperforms compared to its non-Marine counterparts, and there will always be a Marine player to say 'my unit isn't too good, yours just isn't good'.

Especially when the units that 'aren't good' are some of the best units in their codices.

I'm not overpowered, it's just that everything else is underpowered...


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 02:59:48


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Xenomancers wrote:
How in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?

Are you suggesting that Repulsor Executioners should cost 2000 ppm like Warhound titans? Or 6000 ppm like Warlords? That's the best idea you've ever had Xeno! What a great way to get those eyesores off the table! Maybe then loyalists will start using some of their real tanks like Sicarans. No, wait, you want a tank that can also act as a transport but still have lots of guns while being really tough. I know, Land Raider Achilles! And it's only 14 ppm more than an Executioner with the big laser whatever it is (because we all know nobody takes the big plasma whatever it is). What a brilliant idea to beautify the game, I love it. Now, how do we get rid of those godawful Ninja Not Really a Dreadnoughts......


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 03:13:40


Post by: Eipi10


 catbarf wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:
TIL that Bullgryns, GK paladins, and Custodian Guard are all bad pointed units.


I think it's pretty telling how you can name basically any Marine unit that overperforms compared to its non-Marine counterparts, and there will always be a Marine player to say 'my unit isn't too good, yours just isn't good'.

Especially when the units that 'aren't good' are some of the best units in their codices.

I'm not overpowered, it's just that everything else is underpowered...
I wonder if it's because there are so many other marine players that their standard for what is good and what isn't is so skewed. They spend their time thinking about marine units and playing against marine units, so when someone points out that most armies don't have 12 wound T7 tanks with a 2+ save, invuln, FNP, and excellent shooting and melee for ~180 points, they don't know what to say or even how to process it, as the idea that a unit which would ever be worse than that is alien to them and there must instead be some problem with the player in question. It's like they are playing a different game with a different power scale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?

Are you suggesting that Repulsor Executioners should cost 2000 ppm like Warhound titans? Or 6000 ppm like Warlords? That's the best idea you've ever had Xeno! What a great way to get those eyesores off the table! Maybe then loyalists will start using some of their real tanks like Sicarans. No, wait, you want a tank that can also act as a transport but still have lots of guns while being really tough. I know, Land Raider Achilles! And it's only 14 ppm more than an Executioner with the big laser whatever it is (because we all know nobody takes the big plasma whatever it is). What a brilliant idea to beautify the game, I love it. Now, how do we get rid of those godawful Ninja Not Really a Dreadnoughts......
Umm... He... He made a typo...

He meant "Who in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?" Who, not How.

It doesn't even make sense with how...


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 03:44:39


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Eipi10 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?

Are you suggesting that Repulsor Executioners should cost 2000 ppm like Warhound titans? Or 6000 ppm like Warlords? That's the best idea you've ever had Xeno! What a great way to get those eyesores off the table! Maybe then loyalists will start using some of their real tanks like Sicarans. No, wait, you want a tank that can also act as a transport but still have lots of guns while being really tough. I know, Land Raider Achilles! And it's only 14 ppm more than an Executioner with the big laser whatever it is (because we all know nobody takes the big plasma whatever it is). What a brilliant idea to beautify the game, I love it. Now, how do we get rid of those godawful Ninja Not Really a Dreadnoughts......
Umm... He... He made a typo...

He meant "Who in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?" Who, not How.

It doesn't even make sense with how...

Obviously . He was implying that the executioner is overpriced, which it isn't. It goes back to your own point about how loyalist players see their units. Everything should be at least +1 of what everyone else has, for less points. So I fed him some satire. A flying tank with that many guns? And it only took a 16% hit? Compared to the points increase other armies got? And of course he wants it to be cheaper so loyalists can use it to move the already grossly underpriced eradicators quickly and safely up the board. Right, cut points for loyalists, they need all the help they can get.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 04:22:04


Post by: Eipi10


You are too good at satire.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 08:42:08


Post by: Spoletta


 Eipi10 wrote:
Spoiler:
Karol wrote:
Well one should not compare stuff to bad pointed units. and second thing that is important is the fact that in the necron stuff, it they stand up, just like almost the whole necron army.

They are a 3 man unit, which needs a transport to work and every death hurts them a lot.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah, the melee Destroyers really aren't that good, so saying that Bladeguard outperform them honestly doesn't say anything.
TIL that Bullgryns, GK paladins, and Custodian Guard are all bad pointed units.

The hubris of primaris marine players with indomitus is unlike anything I've seen in 40k since I've followed the meta. Even with battle company, shining spear spam, or the Castellan triumvirate, possessed bomb + plauge bearers, and even SM codex 2.0 + supplements, the players would admit that it was broken, the only way their army could be competitive, that they haven't been good in a long time, or that they simply like to win. But it seems like this time around primaris players are almost entirely unapologetic. They could at least say the army needs some tough melee unit and yes it should be ten more points to be more inline with the sister unit released at the same time and filling the same niche, but instead there is some kind of glee that primaris marines are going to be even betterer, or even going as far as to say woe is us for needing to take a transport to make the best use of our OP units. Custodes and don't even have a viable transport.

Spoletta wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Mmmm. If you believe the Spoletta doctrine , that Eradicators won't be under a 5++/5+++ (or you can pull them apart from such buffs - difficult given the 24" range, but...) then I don't think they are *that* hard to kill.

Sure they are still miles better than comparable units full stop the end and should be at least 55 points per model - but its probably not the point where you should insta-quit the game if someone brings them.

As for the bladeguard... yeah. I mean I think they are too cheap for what you get - but as people have argued, they are arguably just a bit better custodian guard. And you wouldn't normally run away from them (even if Custodes are top tier now).
To address the bladeguard, yes each one is just a bit better (constant damage 4 attacks at WS 3+ vs random damage 3 attacks at WS 2+), but they are about 70% the cost. Give them normal power swords or two wounds each and they'd be fine


While the total package is probably better for the Veterans, let's not give false numbers.

Custodes have a ranged attack, +1S and +1T over veterans. They are obviously going to cost more.
Yeah sure, in a direct fight Veterans win on equal points, but that doesn't actual mean anything in mathammer terms. Putting one unit against another one in a direct fight has always been a bad habit of this board, but it actually carries zero value. Units are evaluated at what they are supposed to do. For example, for keeping an objective Custodes are surely better due to that +1T and Obsec. 14 point better? That can be discussed.
S6 to S5 is the least significant strength change in the game for changes under S10, +1T is a small condolence when so much of these unit's durability comes from THP/AGA, and it's not like SM are hurting for obsec with all their troop choices. In fact, bladeguard are far superior for holding objectives because they are only 105 points a squad. When you start comparing the token shooting attacks on overwhelmingly melee-oriented units, you should know you are grasping at straws to defend the undefendable.


Man, your SM hate is reaching levels where it becomes useless to discuss with you.
For a second I thought about explaining to you in a logical manner why you are wrong, but then I read again your past comments and... yeah, that would be useless.

You know what? You are right! SM are super duper OP in whatever they do and every SM player should be burned on the stake because they make the game miserable for everyone else! You are right on everything, your argument are so solid that no retort is possible!


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 10:04:14


Post by: Karol


The hubris of primaris marine players with indomitus is unlike anything I've seen in 40k since I've followed the meta. Even with battle company, shining spear spam, or the Castellan triumvirate, possessed bomb + plauge bearers, and even SM codex 2.0 + supplements, the players would admit that it was broken, the only way their army could be competitive, that they haven't been good in a long time, or that they simply like to win. But it seems like this time around primaris players are almost entirely unapologetic. They could at least say the army needs some tough melee unit and yes it should be ten more points to be more inline with the sister unit released at the same time and filling the same niche, but instead there is some kind of glee that primaris marines are going to be even betterer, or even going as far as to say woe is us for needing to take a transport to make the best use of our OP units. Custodes and don't even have a viable transport.

All I remember getting from players that played eldar pre nerf of the castellan builds, was learn to play and the claims that their armies aren't that good, on top of stories how they don't use dark reapers or spears. Why should primaris players, and I am not one as GW decided to not make primaris GK, suddenly feel obliged to feel that they should ask for their armies nerfs. When eldar where beating everything left and right, the only thing the eldar players asked for was new models. Heck they even claimed to be treated bad by GW, because back in the day they were even more OP. And when 2.0 marines finaly dethroned eldar making, eldar players lost their collective minds.

All I learned after and edtion of 8th that either someone is rich and plays all armies, or if you play one army, you care for that to be good and powerful. Worrying for others is a waste of time .


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 11:10:36


Post by: BrianDavion


In Fairness Karol you saw this kind of gak about Eldar too back in the day, I distinctly remember seeing someone likewise suggest refusing to play vs eldar. you also saw people proposing banning Imperial Knights from play, even when the codex.. wasn't all THAT great


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 11:30:03


Post by: Karol


That is true. But the end of 8th tought me an important lesson. But I am slow to get hang of thinks took me a year to understand that GW doesn't care about balance, and that there is no obligation for them to produce good rules. 2 years to understand that people only say they want balance, but what they mean is that they want toher armies to be balanced, and their own armies to be better and fun to play.



Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 11:33:55


Post by: Jidmah


 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:


Actually if you look at BCP results, marines are performing quite bad, but BA are going strong

No, I'm not serious before someone jumps on my throath for that.

We can't really conclude anything from just a dozen or so small event results.


I do find it amusing that no one wants to talk about the buggy Orks taking 1st and DE 3rd in a 42 player tournament as quickly though.


This thread is called "Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes", so...

It's also hilarious that Xeno thinks that he was right about Squig Buggies, when in fact it was the only buggy that wasn't in the list. He literally brought all the others, including a wartrike and a snazzwagon.

It's pretty safe to assume that the six scrapjets and two bonebreakers were giving any primaris he encountered hell. It also does a decent job at denying secondaries, despite buggies not being especially durable, killing six of them is still a ton of wounds you need to go through.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 13:37:54


Post by: catbarf


Karol wrote:
The hubris of primaris marine players with indomitus is unlike anything I've seen in 40k since I've followed the meta. Even with battle company, shining spear spam, or the Castellan triumvirate, possessed bomb + plauge bearers, and even SM codex 2.0 + supplements, the players would admit that it was broken, the only way their army could be competitive, that they haven't been good in a long time, or that they simply like to win. But it seems like this time around primaris players are almost entirely unapologetic. They could at least say the army needs some tough melee unit and yes it should be ten more points to be more inline with the sister unit released at the same time and filling the same niche, but instead there is some kind of glee that primaris marines are going to be even betterer, or even going as far as to say woe is us for needing to take a transport to make the best use of our OP units. Custodes and don't even have a viable transport.

All I remember getting from players that played eldar pre nerf of the castellan builds, was learn to play and the claims that their armies aren't that good, on top of stories how they don't use dark reapers or spears. Why should primaris players, and I am not one as GW decided to not make primaris GK, suddenly feel obliged to feel that they should ask for their armies nerfs. When eldar where beating everything left and right, the only thing the eldar players asked for was new models. Heck they even claimed to be treated bad by GW, because back in the day they were even more OP. And when 2.0 marines finaly dethroned eldar making, eldar players lost their collective minds.

All I learned after and edtion of 8th that either someone is rich and plays all armies, or if you play one army, you care for that to be good and powerful. Worrying for others is a waste of time .


I remember plenty of Eldar players lamenting that Alaitoc flyer spam was the only way to make Eldar function in a competitive sense in 8th. Iyanden wraith armies or Biel-Tan Guardian armies or anything using aspect warriors (minus Dark Reapers, before their nerf) weren't beating anybody, let alone 'everything left and right'. The vast majority of the Eldar codex is poorly treated by GW, and it was that one gimmick (well, plus Ynnari) that punched above its weight, and I can find you plenty of topics with Eldar and non-Eldar players alike complaining about it.

And I certainly don't remember this laundry list of excuses to the state of balance, or Eldar players rapidly oscillating from 'my units aren't that good, they're only slightly better than your best units, so it's fine' to 'it's not that my units are good, it's that all of yours are bad, so it's fine' to 'well I can't make them even BETTER because I lack [x], so it's fine' to 'in theory you might have one specific unit that will hard counter me if I don't target it first (which I will), so it's fine' to 'this unit can do a bunch of things really well simultaneously but it can't do EVERYTHING and isn't invulnerable, so it's fine'. It's just such a predictable pattern at this point.

Believe it or not, I do want Marines to be effective with casual lists so that their owners can have fun too. This is not a zero-sum game, and it was not fun to repeatedly crush my Dark Angels-playing friend with my Guard in the early days of 8th, but the pendulum swung pretty hard in the other direction with SM2.0 and now Indomitus has pushed it further. I don't think it's too much to ask to expect a modicum of objectivity.

Karol wrote:That is true. But the end of 8th tought me an important lesson. But I am slow to get hang of thinks took me a year to understand that GW doesn't care about balance, and that there is no obligation for them to produce good rules. 2 years to understand that people only say they want balance, but what they mean is that they want toher armies to be balanced, and their own armies to be better and fun to play.


Most people don't play in a sociopath meta, Karol.

I play Guard and you can find in my post history, going back to early 8th Ed, me saying that I think Guardsmen are too cheap and should be more expensive. I've also stated on numerous occasions my dislike for soup, and how Guard facilitated easy CP in 8th.

People invested in the health of the hobby as a whole, rather than just their army, can recognize when something they play is problematic. Reducing it to 'make my army good / make everyone else suck' is an incredibly toxic attitude.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 13:46:38


Post by: Not Online!!!


I remember plenty of Eldar players lamenting that Alaitoc flyer spam was the only way to make Eldar function in a competitive sense in 8th. Iyanden wraith armies or Biel-Tan Guardian armies or anything using aspect warriors (minus Dark Reapers, before their nerf) weren't beating anybody, let alone 'everything left and right'. The vast majority of the Eldar codex is poorly treated by GW, and it was that one gimmick (well, plus Ynnari) that punched above its weight, and I can find you plenty of topics with Eldar and non-Eldar players alike complaining about it.


the sad truth of the matter is, that alot of slightly bigger dexes are full of these units.Even smaller dexes.

I mean, people remember possessed pre bomb, right?
Without AL shenanigans and them beeing the most easily facilitate buffstack body they sucked hard.
They sucked for what's it now? 4.5 editions atleast.

the hellturky at launch some of the most broken cheese there was, after it, nerfed into oblivion, for the better part of 2 editions.

Conscripts for guard? when was the last time you'd actually consider them above Infantry squads, even when these were forced into beein platoons?

In some cases, like eldar, the whole dexes feel bad. beyond some outliers which themselves are so oppressive that you feel forced into them even when you play casual against some better internally balanced armies.

And with any edition suddendly these units change around.
There are very few that remained constantly good or bad.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 14:13:44


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Eipi10 wrote:
Karol wrote:
Well one should not compare stuff to bad pointed units. and second thing that is important is the fact that in the necron stuff, it they stand up, just like almost the whole necron army.

They are a 3 man unit, which needs a transport to work and every death hurts them a lot.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah, the melee Destroyers really aren't that good, so saying that Bladeguard outperform them honestly doesn't say anything.
TIL that Bullgryns, GK paladins, and Custodian Guard are all bad pointed units.

The hubris of primaris marine players with indomitus is unlike anything I've seen in 40k since I've followed the meta. Even with battle company, shining spear spam, or the Castellan triumvirate, possessed bomb + plauge bearers, and even SM codex 2.0 + supplements, the players would admit that it was broken, the only way their army could be competitive, that they haven't been good in a long time, or that they simply like to win. But it seems like this time around primaris players are almost entirely unapologetic. They could at least say the army needs some tough melee unit and yes it should be ten more points to be more inline with the sister unit released at the same time and filling the same niche, but instead there is some kind of glee that primaris marines are going to be even betterer, or even going as far as to say woe is us for needing to take a transport to make the best use of our OP units. Custodes and don't even have a viable transport.

Spoletta wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Mmmm. If you believe the Spoletta doctrine , that Eradicators won't be under a 5++/5+++ (or you can pull them apart from such buffs - difficult given the 24" range, but...) then I don't think they are *that* hard to kill.

Sure they are still miles better than comparable units full stop the end and should be at least 55 points per model - but its probably not the point where you should insta-quit the game if someone brings them.

As for the bladeguard... yeah. I mean I think they are too cheap for what you get - but as people have argued, they are arguably just a bit better custodian guard. And you wouldn't normally run away from them (even if Custodes are top tier now).
To address the bladeguard, yes each one is just a bit better (constant damage 4 attacks at WS 3+ vs random damage 3 attacks at WS 2+), but they are about 70% the cost. Give them normal power swords or two wounds each and they'd be fine


While the total package is probably better for the Veterans, let's not give false numbers.

Custodes have a ranged attack, +1S and +1T over veterans. They are obviously going to cost more.
Yeah sure, in a direct fight Veterans win on equal points, but that doesn't actual mean anything in mathammer terms. Putting one unit against another one in a direct fight has always been a bad habit of this board, but it actually carries zero value. Units are evaluated at what they are supposed to do. For example, for keeping an objective Custodes are surely better due to that +1T and Obsec. 14 point better? That can be discussed.
S6 to S5 is the least significant strength change in the game for changes under S10, +1T is a small condolence when so much of these unit's durability comes from THP/AGA, and it's not like SM are hurting for obsec with all their troop choices. In fact, bladeguard are far superior for holding objectives because they are only 105 points a squad. When you start comparing the token shooting attacks on overwhelmingly melee-oriented units, you should know you are grasping at straws to defend the undefendable.

Quite honestly a lot of those units aren't great, particularly the Paladins and Bullgryns, because the only way they can be "good" is stacking buff after buff and Stratagem after Stratagem. Plus you'll notice based on the math that Custodes are pretty close anyway. So your statement is bad and you should feel bad.
Heaven forbid a unit is capable by itself, transportation not included!


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 16:59:49


Post by: catbarf


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Quite honestly a lot of those units aren't great, particularly the Paladins and Bullgryns, because the only way they can be "good" is stacking buff after buff and Stratagem after Stratagem.


You're gonna need to run that by me re: Bullgryns, which don't have any particularly useful stratagems and don't get subfaction bonuses, yet were commonly featured in AM lists all through 8th.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Plus you'll notice based on the math that Custodes are pretty close anyway.


Soooo you just ignored all the math where Custodes lose by a significant margin in a straight fight, barely win if they get the charge, and get absolutely wrecked if they get charged?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 18:33:49


Post by: Eipi10


 catbarf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Quite honestly a lot of those units aren't great, particularly the Paladins and Bullgryns, because the only way they can be "good" is stacking buff after buff and Stratagem after Stratagem.
You're gonna need to run that by me re: Bullgryns, which don't have any particularly useful stratagems and don't get subfaction bonuses, yet were commonly featured in AM lists all through 8th.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Plus you'll notice based on the math that Custodes are pretty close anyway.
Soooo you just ignored all the math where Custodes lose by a significant margin in a straight fight, barely win if they get the charge, and get absolutely wrecked if they get charged?
I'm starting to think that is thread is what has given me such a bad opinion of primaris players. I wonder if it's how brazen they are being or if it's having the math done out for me that some of the best units in top armies are invalidated, not with hard counters, but with better versions of the same thing. I mean, Paladins sold out almost immediately when the ritual of the damned came out, just like the thunderfire cannon, there is no way you can call them bad by any definition.

 catbarf wrote:
Karol wrote:
The hubris of primaris marine players with indomitus is unlike anything I've seen in 40k since I've followed the meta. Even with battle company, shining spear spam, or the Castellan triumvirate, possessed bomb + plauge bearers, and even SM codex 2.0 + supplements, the players would admit that it was broken, the only way their army could be competitive, that they haven't been good in a long time, or that they simply like to win. But it seems like this time around primaris players are almost entirely unapologetic. They could at least say the army needs some tough melee unit and yes it should be ten more points to be more inline with the sister unit released at the same time and filling the same niche, but instead there is some kind of glee that primaris marines are going to be even betterer, or even going as far as to say woe is us for needing to take a transport to make the best use of our OP units. Custodes and don't even have a viable transport.

All I remember getting from players that played eldar pre nerf of the castellan builds, was learn to play and the claims that their armies aren't that good, on top of stories how they don't use dark reapers or spears. Why should primaris players, and I am not one as GW decided to not make primaris GK, suddenly feel obliged to feel that they should ask for their armies nerfs. When eldar where beating everything left and right, the only thing the eldar players asked for was new models. Heck they even claimed to be treated bad by GW, because back in the day they were even more OP. And when 2.0 marines finaly dethroned eldar making, eldar players lost their collective minds.

All I learned after and edtion of 8th that either someone is rich and plays all armies, or if you play one army, you care for that to be good and powerful. Worrying for others is a waste of time .
I remember plenty of Eldar players lamenting that Alaitoc flyer spam was the only way to make Eldar function in a competitive sense in 8th. Iyanden wraith armies or Biel-Tan Guardian armies or anything using aspect warriors (minus Dark Reapers, before their nerf) weren't beating anybody, let alone 'everything left and right'. The vast majority of the Eldar codex is poorly treated by GW, and it was that one gimmick (well, plus Ynnari) that punched above its weight, and I can find you plenty of topics with Eldar and non-Eldar players alike complaining about it.

And I certainly don't remember this laundry list of excuses to the state of balance, or Eldar players rapidly oscillating from 'my units aren't that good, they're only slightly better than your best units, so it's fine' to 'it's not that my units are good, it's that all of yours are bad, so it's fine' to 'well I can't make them even BETTER because I lack [x], so it's fine' to 'in theory you might have one specific unit that will hard counter me if I don't target it first (which I will), so it's fine' to 'this unit can do a bunch of things really well simultaneously but it can't do EVERYTHING and isn't invulnerable, so it's fine'. It's just such a predictable pattern at this point.

Believe it or not, I do want Marines to be effective with casual lists so that their owners can have fun too. This is not a zero-sum game, and it was not fun to repeatedly crush my Dark Angels-playing friend with my Guard in the early days of 8th, but the pendulum swung pretty hard in the other direction with SM2.0 and now Indomitus has pushed it further. I don't think it's too much to ask to expect a modicum of objectivity.
I think there was a time in 6th or early 7th where eldar could make an army with a random number generator and it would still be top tier. And in all fairness, I don't think Codex 2.0 is what did it, that was a just a good codex by itself, it was all the supplements that came on top of it that broke the game.

 catbarf wrote:
Karol wrote:That is true. But the end of 8th tought me an important lesson. But I am slow to get hang of thinks took me a year to understand that GW doesn't care about balance, and that there is no obligation for them to produce good rules. 2 years to understand that people only say they want balance, but what they mean is that they want toher armies to be balanced, and their own armies to be better and fun to play.
Most people don't play in a sociopath meta, Karol.

I play Guard and you can find in my post history, going back to early 8th Ed, me saying that I think Guardsmen are too cheap and should be more expensive. I've also stated on numerous occasions my dislike for soup, and how Guard facilitated easy CP in 8th.

People invested in the health of the hobby as a whole, rather than just their army, can recognize when something they play is problematic. Reducing it to 'make my army good / make everyone else suck' is an incredibly toxic attitude.
Back at the height of the Castellan meta, I played my admech + DW against the someone using the textbook Castellan list to help him prepare for LVO or adepticon or something. I was tabled in 3 turns and he still had 6 CP. He told me he felt like an donkey-cave for doing that and was really sorry, but I convinced him to keep his army the way it was because I knew he would be up against the same thing at the tournament, I think he went 3-3. Meta-chasers are a real thing in any game, especially MTG which I used to play, but I've rarely known them to be as petty as karol makes them out to be, except some of the primaris players this time around.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 18:38:45


Post by: Xenomancers


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?

Are you suggesting that Repulsor Executioners should cost 2000 ppm like Warhound titans? Or 6000 ppm like Warlords? That's the best idea you've ever had Xeno! What a great way to get those eyesores off the table! Maybe then loyalists will start using some of their real tanks like Sicarans. No, wait, you want a tank that can also act as a transport but still have lots of guns while being really tough. I know, Land Raider Achilles! And it's only 14 ppm more than an Executioner with the big laser whatever it is (because we all know nobody takes the big plasma whatever it is). What a brilliant idea to beautify the game, I love it. Now, how do we get rid of those godawful Ninja Not Really a Dreadnoughts......
Umm... He... He made a typo...

He meant "Who in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?" Who, not How.

It doesn't even make sense with how...

Obviously . He was implying that the executioner is overpriced, which it isn't. It goes back to your own point about how loyalist players see their units. Everything should be at least +1 of what everyone else has, for less points. So I fed him some satire. A flying tank with that many guns? And it only took a 16% hit? Compared to the points increase other armies got? And of course he wants it to be cheaper so loyalists can use it to move the already grossly underpriced eradicators quickly and safely up the board. Right, cut points for loyalists, they need all the help they can get.

Oh no - I admit that eradicators are too cheap. I literally posted it in that thread lol. The executioner is dang near 100 points over costed though. At least 80. Twin Heavy bolters are all overcosted too. 6 str5 ap -1 is not worth 30 points. That is literally insane.
I'll break it down. Executioner lost it's special ability...POTMS - all non vheicals get that. Lost the ability to fail back and shoot. Half the heavy weapons in the game give it no save when you shoot it. Why the heck would I not just take 3 vindicators for the points? 33 t8 3+ wounds compared to 16...


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 19:04:54


Post by: Ice_can


Because those 3 vindiactors arn't equiped with the stupidly powerful heavy 4 72 inch range S10 AP-4/5 D3-6 weapon aswell as the 18 other options and the ability to transport 6 Primaris or 3 Gravis.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 19:11:12


Post by: Dudeface


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?

Are you suggesting that Repulsor Executioners should cost 2000 ppm like Warhound titans? Or 6000 ppm like Warlords? That's the best idea you've ever had Xeno! What a great way to get those eyesores off the table! Maybe then loyalists will start using some of their real tanks like Sicarans. No, wait, you want a tank that can also act as a transport but still have lots of guns while being really tough. I know, Land Raider Achilles! And it's only 14 ppm more than an Executioner with the big laser whatever it is (because we all know nobody takes the big plasma whatever it is). What a brilliant idea to beautify the game, I love it. Now, how do we get rid of those godawful Ninja Not Really a Dreadnoughts......
Umm... He... He made a typo...

He meant "Who in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?" Who, not How.

It doesn't even make sense with how...

Obviously . He was implying that the executioner is overpriced, which it isn't. It goes back to your own point about how loyalist players see their units. Everything should be at least +1 of what everyone else has, for less points. So I fed him some satire. A flying tank with that many guns? And it only took a 16% hit? Compared to the points increase other armies got? And of course he wants it to be cheaper so loyalists can use it to move the already grossly underpriced eradicators quickly and safely up the board. Right, cut points for loyalists, they need all the help they can get.

Oh no - I admit that eradicators are too cheap. I literally posted it in that thread lol. The executioner is dang near 100 points over costed though. At least 80. Twin Heavy bolters are all overcosted too. 6 str5 ap -1 is not worth 30 points. That is literally insane.
I'll break it down. Executioner lost it's special ability...POTMS - all non vheicals get that. Lost the ability to fail back and shoot. Half the heavy weapons in the game give it no save when you shoot it. Why the heck would I not just take 3 vindicators for the points? 33 t8 3+ wounds compared to 16...


What if those heavy bolters were s5 ap -1 d2?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 19:19:58


Post by: Xenomancers


 Jidmah wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:


Actually if you look at BCP results, marines are performing quite bad, but BA are going strong

No, I'm not serious before someone jumps on my throath for that.

We can't really conclude anything from just a dozen or so small event results.


I do find it amusing that no one wants to talk about the buggy Orks taking 1st and DE 3rd in a 42 player tournament as quickly though.


This thread is called "Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes", so...

It's also hilarious that Xeno thinks that he was right about Squig Buggies, when in fact it was the only buggy that wasn't in the list. He literally brought all the others, including a wartrike and a snazzwagon.

It's pretty safe to assume that the six scrapjets and two bonebreakers were giving any primaris he encountered hell. It also does a decent job at denying secondaries, despite buggies not being especially durable, killing six of them is still a ton of wounds you need to go through.
I literally said that myself and laughed. You have no sense of humor bro. All ork buggies are good. You are going to see LOTS of them. Squig buggy probably is the best buggy though. ESP with the obscuring rules. It is a lot easier to hide them. You can literally sit back with 9 squig buggies chucking 24 d3 str 6 ap-1 d3 damage shots and 10 smash guns and just blow armies apart. I say again though - all the buggies are really good. I know because I play against them a lot. I agree though...lets get back on topic. how good are squig buggies vs gravis units...wow...so they are faster - can shoot over walls at them and a single failed save can be a dead gravis.

If the topic is custodes. I can confirm pretty handely that gravis get merked by custodians. 2+ saves make your auto bolters and flamers worthless unless you are in tactical doctrine.In melee Custodes hit on 2's compared to 4's to wound on the same number and a 4++ vs a 6+ save.They are literally killing at twice the rate in CC for being only 30% more expensive?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?

Are you suggesting that Repulsor Executioners should cost 2000 ppm like Warhound titans? Or 6000 ppm like Warlords? That's the best idea you've ever had Xeno! What a great way to get those eyesores off the table! Maybe then loyalists will start using some of their real tanks like Sicarans. No, wait, you want a tank that can also act as a transport but still have lots of guns while being really tough. I know, Land Raider Achilles! And it's only 14 ppm more than an Executioner with the big laser whatever it is (because we all know nobody takes the big plasma whatever it is). What a brilliant idea to beautify the game, I love it. Now, how do we get rid of those godawful Ninja Not Really a Dreadnoughts......
Umm... He... He made a typo...

He meant "Who in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?" Who, not How.

It doesn't even make sense with how...

Obviously . He was implying that the executioner is overpriced, which it isn't. It goes back to your own point about how loyalist players see their units. Everything should be at least +1 of what everyone else has, for less points. So I fed him some satire. A flying tank with that many guns? And it only took a 16% hit? Compared to the points increase other armies got? And of course he wants it to be cheaper so loyalists can use it to move the already grossly underpriced eradicators quickly and safely up the board. Right, cut points for loyalists, they need all the help they can get.

Oh no - I admit that eradicators are too cheap. I literally posted it in that thread lol. The executioner is dang near 100 points over costed though. At least 80. Twin Heavy bolters are all overcosted too. 6 str5 ap -1 is not worth 30 points. That is literally insane.
I'll break it down. Executioner lost it's special ability...POTMS - all non vheicals get that. Lost the ability to fail back and shoot. Half the heavy weapons in the game give it no save when you shoot it. Why the heck would I not just take 3 vindicators for the points? 33 t8 3+ wounds compared to 16...


What if those heavy bolters were s5 ap -1 d2?

There is no point in trying to balance the game if you are going to give 1 army a blanket rule that doubles the damage of a weapon and every other army has to pay the points for the weapon at half the efficiency. Even in this case that only works for 1 turn (the first turn) and you could just hide from it and then they just have over-costed weapons.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 19:28:27


Post by: the_scotsman


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:


Actually if you look at BCP results, marines are performing quite bad, but BA are going strong

No, I'm not serious before someone jumps on my throath for that.

We can't really conclude anything from just a dozen or so small event results.


I do find it amusing that no one wants to talk about the buggy Orks taking 1st and DE 3rd in a 42 player tournament as quickly though.


This thread is called "Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes", so...

It's also hilarious that Xeno thinks that he was right about Squig Buggies, when in fact it was the only buggy that wasn't in the list. He literally brought all the others, including a wartrike and a snazzwagon.

It's pretty safe to assume that the six scrapjets and two bonebreakers were giving any primaris he encountered hell. It also does a decent job at denying secondaries, despite buggies not being especially durable, killing six of them is still a ton of wounds you need to go through.
I literally said that myself and laughed. You have no sense of humor bro. All ork buggies are good. You are going to see LOTS of them. Squig buggy probably is the best buggy though. ESP with the obscuring rules. It is a lot easier to hide them. You can literally sit back with 9 squig buggies chucking 24 d3 str 6 ap-1 d3 damage shots and 10 smash guns and just blow armies apart. I say again though - all the buggies are really good. I know because I play against them a lot. I agree though...lets get back on topic. how good are squig buggies vs gravis units...wow...so they are faster - can shoot over walls at them and a single failed save can be a dead gravis.

If the topic is custodes. I can confirm pretty handely that gravis get merked by custodians. 2+ saves make your auto bolters and flamers worthless unless you are in tactical doctrine.In melee Custodes hit on 2's compared to 4's to wound on the same number and a 4++ vs a 6+ save.They are literally killing at twice the rate in CC for being only 30% more expensive?


How are squigbuggies shooting through walls? They don't do that. Also, 3d3 S6 Ap-1 dD3 shots at ork ballistic skill is just..not that impressive for 110 points. I dunno what to say. The new marine turret thing is 6 S7 AP-1 d2 shots at ballistic skill 2+ for ~80 points.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 19:37:51


Post by: catbarf


 Xenomancers wrote:
If the topic is custodes. I can confirm pretty handely that gravis get merked by custodians. 2+ saves make your auto bolters and flamers worthless unless you are in tactical doctrine.In melee Custodes hit on 2's compared to 4's to wound on the same number and a 4++ vs a 6+ save.They are literally killing at twice the rate in CC for being only 30% more expensive?


Are you really complaining that your elite anti-horde shooting specialists lose out in melee to elite melee-specialized anti-elite specialists? Let alone trying to portray your free army-wide special ability, that can turn those anti-horde specialists into a credible threat to those super-tough elites, as a weakness?

I mean good lord, when you are in Tactical doctrine (on turns 2 and 3, when 24" infantry are most relevant), a trio of Aggressors kills half their points cost against one of the worst match-ups possible for them.

I'll play a sad, sad song on the world's tiniest violin for Scissors having the gall to complain that it sometimes loses to Rock.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 20:01:47


Post by: Dudeface


 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:


Actually if you look at BCP results, marines are performing quite bad, but BA are going strong

No, I'm not serious before someone jumps on my throath for that.

We can't really conclude anything from just a dozen or so small event results.


I do find it amusing that no one wants to talk about the buggy Orks taking 1st and DE 3rd in a 42 player tournament as quickly though.


This thread is called "Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes", so...

It's also hilarious that Xeno thinks that he was right about Squig Buggies, when in fact it was the only buggy that wasn't in the list. He literally brought all the others, including a wartrike and a snazzwagon.

It's pretty safe to assume that the six scrapjets and two bonebreakers were giving any primaris he encountered hell. It also does a decent job at denying secondaries, despite buggies not being especially durable, killing six of them is still a ton of wounds you need to go through.
I literally said that myself and laughed. You have no sense of humor bro. All ork buggies are good. You are going to see LOTS of them. Squig buggy probably is the best buggy though. ESP with the obscuring rules. It is a lot easier to hide them. You can literally sit back with 9 squig buggies chucking 24 d3 str 6 ap-1 d3 damage shots and 10 smash guns and just blow armies apart. I say again though - all the buggies are really good. I know because I play against them a lot. I agree though...lets get back on topic. how good are squig buggies vs gravis units...wow...so they are faster - can shoot over walls at them and a single failed save can be a dead gravis.

If the topic is custodes. I can confirm pretty handely that gravis get merked by custodians. 2+ saves make your auto bolters and flamers worthless unless you are in tactical doctrine.In melee Custodes hit on 2's compared to 4's to wound on the same number and a 4++ vs a 6+ save.They are literally killing at twice the rate in CC for being only 30% more expensive?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?

Are you suggesting that Repulsor Executioners should cost 2000 ppm like Warhound titans? Or 6000 ppm like Warlords? That's the best idea you've ever had Xeno! What a great way to get those eyesores off the table! Maybe then loyalists will start using some of their real tanks like Sicarans. No, wait, you want a tank that can also act as a transport but still have lots of guns while being really tough. I know, Land Raider Achilles! And it's only 14 ppm more than an Executioner with the big laser whatever it is (because we all know nobody takes the big plasma whatever it is). What a brilliant idea to beautify the game, I love it. Now, how do we get rid of those godawful Ninja Not Really a Dreadnoughts......
Umm... He... He made a typo...

He meant "Who in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?" Who, not How.

It doesn't even make sense with how...

Obviously . He was implying that the executioner is overpriced, which it isn't. It goes back to your own point about how loyalist players see their units. Everything should be at least +1 of what everyone else has, for less points. So I fed him some satire. A flying tank with that many guns? And it only took a 16% hit? Compared to the points increase other armies got? And of course he wants it to be cheaper so loyalists can use it to move the already grossly underpriced eradicators quickly and safely up the board. Right, cut points for loyalists, they need all the help they can get.

Oh no - I admit that eradicators are too cheap. I literally posted it in that thread lol. The executioner is dang near 100 points over costed though. At least 80. Twin Heavy bolters are all overcosted too. 6 str5 ap -1 is not worth 30 points. That is literally insane.
I'll break it down. Executioner lost it's special ability...POTMS - all non vheicals get that. Lost the ability to fail back and shoot. Half the heavy weapons in the game give it no save when you shoot it. Why the heck would I not just take 3 vindicators for the points? 33 t8 3+ wounds compared to 16...


What if those heavy bolters were s5 ap -1 d2?

There is no point in trying to balance the game if you are going to give 1 army a blanket rule that doubles the damage of a weapon and every other army has to pay the points for the weapon at half the efficiency. Even in this case that only works for 1 turn (the first turn) and you could just hide from it and then they just have over-costed weapons.


I'm extrapolating from the invictor changes and it would be on the assumption it was game wide


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 20:09:54


Post by: BrianDavion


Dudeface wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:


Actually if you look at BCP results, marines are performing quite bad, but BA are going strong

No, I'm not serious before someone jumps on my throath for that.

We can't really conclude anything from just a dozen or so small event results.


I do find it amusing that no one wants to talk about the buggy Orks taking 1st and DE 3rd in a 42 player tournament as quickly though.


This thread is called "Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes", so...

It's also hilarious that Xeno thinks that he was right about Squig Buggies, when in fact it was the only buggy that wasn't in the list. He literally brought all the others, including a wartrike and a snazzwagon.

It's pretty safe to assume that the six scrapjets and two bonebreakers were giving any primaris he encountered hell. It also does a decent job at denying secondaries, despite buggies not being especially durable, killing six of them is still a ton of wounds you need to go through.
I literally said that myself and laughed. You have no sense of humor bro. All ork buggies are good. You are going to see LOTS of them. Squig buggy probably is the best buggy though. ESP with the obscuring rules. It is a lot easier to hide them. You can literally sit back with 9 squig buggies chucking 24 d3 str 6 ap-1 d3 damage shots and 10 smash guns and just blow armies apart. I say again though - all the buggies are really good. I know because I play against them a lot. I agree though...lets get back on topic. how good are squig buggies vs gravis units...wow...so they are faster - can shoot over walls at them and a single failed save can be a dead gravis.

If the topic is custodes. I can confirm pretty handely that gravis get merked by custodians. 2+ saves make your auto bolters and flamers worthless unless you are in tactical doctrine.In melee Custodes hit on 2's compared to 4's to wound on the same number and a 4++ vs a 6+ save.They are literally killing at twice the rate in CC for being only 30% more expensive?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?

Are you suggesting that Repulsor Executioners should cost 2000 ppm like Warhound titans? Or 6000 ppm like Warlords? That's the best idea you've ever had Xeno! What a great way to get those eyesores off the table! Maybe then loyalists will start using some of their real tanks like Sicarans. No, wait, you want a tank that can also act as a transport but still have lots of guns while being really tough. I know, Land Raider Achilles! And it's only 14 ppm more than an Executioner with the big laser whatever it is (because we all know nobody takes the big plasma whatever it is). What a brilliant idea to beautify the game, I love it. Now, how do we get rid of those godawful Ninja Not Really a Dreadnoughts......
Umm... He... He made a typo...

He meant "Who in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?" Who, not How.

It doesn't even make sense with how...

Obviously . He was implying that the executioner is overpriced, which it isn't. It goes back to your own point about how loyalist players see their units. Everything should be at least +1 of what everyone else has, for less points. So I fed him some satire. A flying tank with that many guns? And it only took a 16% hit? Compared to the points increase other armies got? And of course he wants it to be cheaper so loyalists can use it to move the already grossly underpriced eradicators quickly and safely up the board. Right, cut points for loyalists, they need all the help they can get.

Oh no - I admit that eradicators are too cheap. I literally posted it in that thread lol. The executioner is dang near 100 points over costed though. At least 80. Twin Heavy bolters are all overcosted too. 6 str5 ap -1 is not worth 30 points. That is literally insane.
I'll break it down. Executioner lost it's special ability...POTMS - all non vheicals get that. Lost the ability to fail back and shoot. Half the heavy weapons in the game give it no save when you shoot it. Why the heck would I not just take 3 vindicators for the points? 33 t8 3+ wounds compared to 16...


What if those heavy bolters were s5 ap -1 d2?

There is no point in trying to balance the game if you are going to give 1 army a blanket rule that doubles the damage of a weapon and every other army has to pay the points for the weapon at half the efficiency. Even in this case that only works for 1 turn (the first turn) and you could just hide from it and then they just have over-costed weapons.


I'm extrapolating from the invictor changes and it would be on the assumption it was game wide


well given the invictor changes have it only firing 1 shot from ti's pistol....



Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 20:22:53


Post by: Dysartes


 catbarf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Quite honestly a lot of those units aren't great, particularly the Paladins and Bullgryns, because the only way they can be "good" is stacking buff after buff and Stratagem after Stratagem.


You're gonna need to run that by me re: Bullgryns, which don't have any particularly useful stratagems and don't get subfaction bonuses, yet were commonly featured in AM lists all through 8th.


Just remember who you're talking to, catbarf - anything that disagrees with a taken position can be discounted as "anecdotal", while anything that agrees with it is obviously valuable data.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 20:30:22


Post by: Jidmah


 Xenomancers wrote:
I literally said that myself and laughed. You have no sense of humor bro. All ork buggies are good. You are going to see LOTS of them. Squig buggy probably is the best buggy though. ESP with the obscuring rules. It is a lot easier to hide them. You can literally sit back with 9 squig buggies chucking 24 d3 str 6 ap-1 d3 damage shots and 10 smash guns and just blow armies apart. I say again though - all the buggies are really good. I know because I play against them a lot. I agree though...lets get back on topic. how good are squig buggies vs gravis units...wow...so they are faster - can shoot over walls at them and a single failed save can be a dead gravis.


The squig buggy is one of the worst units in the codex, it got an extremely powerful kustom job and still sucks, that's how bad it is. And it's terrible at killing gravis with any of it's three profiles.

But it's good to see that a new edition hasn't stopped you from insisting that some of the worst ork units are overpowered


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 20:30:56


Post by: Dudeface


BrianDavion wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoletta wrote:


Actually if you look at BCP results, marines are performing quite bad, but BA are going strong

No, I'm not serious before someone jumps on my throath for that.

We can't really conclude anything from just a dozen or so small event results.


I do find it amusing that no one wants to talk about the buggy Orks taking 1st and DE 3rd in a 42 player tournament as quickly though.


This thread is called "Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes", so...

It's also hilarious that Xeno thinks that he was right about Squig Buggies, when in fact it was the only buggy that wasn't in the list. He literally brought all the others, including a wartrike and a snazzwagon.

It's pretty safe to assume that the six scrapjets and two bonebreakers were giving any primaris he encountered hell. It also does a decent job at denying secondaries, despite buggies not being especially durable, killing six of them is still a ton of wounds you need to go through.
I literally said that myself and laughed. You have no sense of humor bro. All ork buggies are good. You are going to see LOTS of them. Squig buggy probably is the best buggy though. ESP with the obscuring rules. It is a lot easier to hide them. You can literally sit back with 9 squig buggies chucking 24 d3 str 6 ap-1 d3 damage shots and 10 smash guns and just blow armies apart. I say again though - all the buggies are really good. I know because I play against them a lot. I agree though...lets get back on topic. how good are squig buggies vs gravis units...wow...so they are faster - can shoot over walls at them and a single failed save can be a dead gravis.

If the topic is custodes. I can confirm pretty handely that gravis get merked by custodians. 2+ saves make your auto bolters and flamers worthless unless you are in tactical doctrine.In melee Custodes hit on 2's compared to 4's to wound on the same number and a 4++ vs a 6+ save.They are literally killing at twice the rate in CC for being only 30% more expensive?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dudeface wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?

Are you suggesting that Repulsor Executioners should cost 2000 ppm like Warhound titans? Or 6000 ppm like Warlords? That's the best idea you've ever had Xeno! What a great way to get those eyesores off the table! Maybe then loyalists will start using some of their real tanks like Sicarans. No, wait, you want a tank that can also act as a transport but still have lots of guns while being really tough. I know, Land Raider Achilles! And it's only 14 ppm more than an Executioner with the big laser whatever it is (because we all know nobody takes the big plasma whatever it is). What a brilliant idea to beautify the game, I love it. Now, how do we get rid of those godawful Ninja Not Really a Dreadnoughts......
Umm... He... He made a typo...

He meant "Who in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?" Who, not How.

It doesn't even make sense with how...

Obviously . He was implying that the executioner is overpriced, which it isn't. It goes back to your own point about how loyalist players see their units. Everything should be at least +1 of what everyone else has, for less points. So I fed him some satire. A flying tank with that many guns? And it only took a 16% hit? Compared to the points increase other armies got? And of course he wants it to be cheaper so loyalists can use it to move the already grossly underpriced eradicators quickly and safely up the board. Right, cut points for loyalists, they need all the help they can get.

Oh no - I admit that eradicators are too cheap. I literally posted it in that thread lol. The executioner is dang near 100 points over costed though. At least 80. Twin Heavy bolters are all overcosted too. 6 str5 ap -1 is not worth 30 points. That is literally insane.
I'll break it down. Executioner lost it's special ability...POTMS - all non vheicals get that. Lost the ability to fail back and shoot. Half the heavy weapons in the game give it no save when you shoot it. Why the heck would I not just take 3 vindicators for the points? 33 t8 3+ wounds compared to 16...


What if those heavy bolters were s5 ap -1 d2?

There is no point in trying to balance the game if you are going to give 1 army a blanket rule that doubles the damage of a weapon and every other army has to pay the points for the weapon at half the efficiency. Even in this case that only works for 1 turn (the first turn) and you could just hide from it and then they just have over-costed weapons.


I'm extrapolating from the invictor changes and it would be on the assumption it was game wide


well given the invictor changes have it only firing 1 shot from ti's pistol....



Well yeah, it's a pistol version of a heavy bolter hence the one shot maybe, or it's now just a unique weapon to that unit and heavy bolters don't change, but it would explain their price increase.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/04 22:42:34


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 catbarf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Quite honestly a lot of those units aren't great, particularly the Paladins and Bullgryns, because the only way they can be "good" is stacking buff after buff and Stratagem after Stratagem.


You're gonna need to run that by me re: Bullgryns, which don't have any particularly useful stratagems and don't get subfaction bonuses, yet were commonly featured in AM lists all through 8th.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Plus you'll notice based on the math that Custodes are pretty close anyway.


Soooo you just ignored all the math where Custodes lose by a significant margin in a straight fight, barely win if they get the charge, and get absolutely wrecked if they get charged?

You mean the Bullgryns that are only ever taken as long as you can get off Barrier at minimum and sometimes Shroud? Strats are mostly a Paladin thing but I'm like 90% sure they have one in Awakening that gives a -1 to hit for a unit near them.
Also saying they lose by a significant margin is pretty wrong. They might lose, but not by a lot. That's fine for a troop choice.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 02:41:44


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?

Are you suggesting that Repulsor Executioners should cost 2000 ppm like Warhound titans? Or 6000 ppm like Warlords? That's the best idea you've ever had Xeno! What a great way to get those eyesores off the table! Maybe then loyalists will start using some of their real tanks like Sicarans. No, wait, you want a tank that can also act as a transport but still have lots of guns while being really tough. I know, Land Raider Achilles! And it's only 14 ppm more than an Executioner with the big laser whatever it is (because we all know nobody takes the big plasma whatever it is). What a brilliant idea to beautify the game, I love it. Now, how do we get rid of those godawful Ninja Not Really a Dreadnoughts......
Umm... He... He made a typo...

He meant "Who in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?" Who, not How.

It doesn't even make sense with how...

Obviously . He was implying that the executioner is overpriced, which it isn't. It goes back to your own point about how loyalist players see their units. Everything should be at least +1 of what everyone else has, for less points. So I fed him some satire. A flying tank with that many guns? And it only took a 16% hit? Compared to the points increase other armies got? And of course he wants it to be cheaper so loyalists can use it to move the already grossly underpriced eradicators quickly and safely up the board. Right, cut points for loyalists, they need all the help they can get.

Oh no - I admit that eradicators are too cheap. I literally posted it in that thread lol. The executioner is dang near 100 points over costed though. At least 80. Twin Heavy bolters are all overcosted too. 6 str5 ap -1 is not worth 30 points. That is literally insane.
I'll break it down. Executioner lost it's special ability...POTMS - all non vheicals get that. Lost the ability to fail back and shoot. Half the heavy weapons in the game give it no save when you shoot it. Why the heck would I not just take 3 vindicators for the points? 33 t8 3+ wounds compared to 16...

Ok, once again, trying to respond to what I think you're trying to say. You mean that all vehicles get the equivalent of potms now, and not all "non vheicals", right? So are you saying everything that used to have potms/daemonic machine spirit should get a discount? Then how about super heavy tanks? "Steel Behemoth" no longer makes them special by allowing them to fire their weapons into and out of melee. Want to give them a discount too? Units shouldn't get a discount just because gw changed the rules for vehicles so that they make more sense and actually encourage movement instead of penalizing it. And as far as the executioner "losing" its ability to fall back and still shoot, no one is upset about that except for people who are sad their flying armory can no longer just float away from whatever was lucky enough to make it into combat with it, despite its -2 to charge rule, so that it can unload all 173.5 of its guns into them. That was a bad rule, and few will miss it.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 02:52:04


Post by: catbarf


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You mean the Bullgryns that are only ever taken as long as you can get off Barrier at minimum and sometimes Shroud?


So hold on, Bullgryns are 'not that great' and shouldn't be compared to Bladeguard as a baseline, but give them just a +1 to their save and maybe a -1 to hit and suddenly they're great and regularly show up in top AM lists?

And what does that mean for Bladeguard when they get to leverage their own psychic abilities, subfaction traits, auras, doctrines, and psychic powers?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also saying they lose by a significant margin is pretty wrong. They might lose, but not by a lot. That's fine for a troop choice.


33% is a pretty significant margin. Bladeguard could go up 5pts and they'd still be point-for-point better than Custodes even without factoring in any of the force multipliers Marines have.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 03:52:29


Post by: shortymcnostrill


Since when are bullgryn a troop choice? This is an elite unit outperforming similar elites in other armies.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 05:07:02


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 catbarf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You mean the Bullgryns that are only ever taken as long as you can get off Barrier at minimum and sometimes Shroud?


So hold on, Bullgryns are 'not that great' and shouldn't be compared to Bladeguard as a baseline, but give them just a +1 to their save and maybe a -1 to hit and suddenly they're great and regularly show up in top AM lists?

And what does that mean for Bladeguard when they get to leverage their own psychic abilities, subfaction traits, auras, doctrines, and psychic powers?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also saying they lose by a significant margin is pretty wrong. They might lose, but not by a lot. That's fine for a troop choice.


33% is a pretty significant margin. Bladeguard could go up 5pts and they'd still be point-for-point better than Custodes even without factoring in any of the force multipliers Marines have.

You're missing the grand point on purpose.
Both Bullgryns and Paladins are only taken because of the buffs you can stack on them for the points or Stratagem cost. Paladins might already be a thousand times better than Terminators in the first place, but lists wouldn't have been built around them if it weren't for the constant Strats put on them. So that's why I'd argue the overall decent performance with Paladins but Bullgryns just not being good.

So is it really that Bladeguard are that broken or are you just used to needing to put that many resources into a unit for it to function? Doesn't THAT say more about the game that those units don't function as intended under their own merit? Would you really take Bullgryns if you couldn't make them ultra durable? The answer to that question is a resounding no.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 05:26:02


Post by: Spoletta


 catbarf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You mean the Bullgryns that are only ever taken as long as you can get off Barrier at minimum and sometimes Shroud?


So hold on, Bullgryns are 'not that great' and shouldn't be compared to Bladeguard as a baseline, but give them just a +1 to their save and maybe a -1 to hit and suddenly they're great and regularly show up in top AM lists?

And what does that mean for Bladeguard when they get to leverage their own psychic abilities, subfaction traits, auras, doctrines, and psychic powers?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also saying they lose by a significant margin is pretty wrong. They might lose, but not by a lot. That's fine for a troop choice.


33% is a pretty significant margin. Bladeguard could go up 5pts and they'd still be point-for-point better than Custodes even without factoring in any of the force multipliers Marines have.


They are 33% better in a specific scenario which isn't actually going to be that common. That is different from being 33% better.
Going by the stats, custodes compared to bladeguards are +1S, +1T, +1WS, troops, obsec, have a small ranged attack and a little save against psy mortals. That's enough stuff to justify at least a 10-11 point increase when applied to a 3W platform. If custodes are overcosted comparred to bladeguards, we are talking about a 3-4 point difference, surely not 33%.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 06:56:50


Post by: Galas


Spoletta wrote:
 catbarf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You mean the Bullgryns that are only ever taken as long as you can get off Barrier at minimum and sometimes Shroud?


So hold on, Bullgryns are 'not that great' and shouldn't be compared to Bladeguard as a baseline, but give them just a +1 to their save and maybe a -1 to hit and suddenly they're great and regularly show up in top AM lists?

And what does that mean for Bladeguard when they get to leverage their own psychic abilities, subfaction traits, auras, doctrines, and psychic powers?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also saying they lose by a significant margin is pretty wrong. They might lose, but not by a lot. That's fine for a troop choice.


33% is a pretty significant margin. Bladeguard could go up 5pts and they'd still be point-for-point better than Custodes even without factoring in any of the force multipliers Marines have.


They are 33% better in a specific scenario which isn't actually going to be that common. That is different from being 33% better.
Going by the stats, custodes compared to bladeguards are +1S, +1T, +1WS, troops, obsec, have a small ranged attack and a little save against psy mortals. That's enough stuff to justify at least a 10-11 point increase when applied to a 3W platform. If custodes are overcosted comparred to bladeguards, we are talking about a 3-4 point difference, surely not 33%.


But then Bladeguard have chapter tactics, doctrines, and super doctrines on top of them where custodes (If you assume the spear ones) have a subfaction trait that gives them the same invul as Bladeguard. Also, Bladeguard have access to cheap transport and a ton of infiltrate or movility stratagems/subfactions were custodes troops have always been crap because they are slow meele units that never reach meele alive.

I love Bladeguard. They'll surely make work in my Dark Angels force. But they have no reason to have 3 wounds or to have 3 wounds and be as cheap as they are.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 07:00:02


Post by: Pyroalchi


I would claim that Bullgryns are good enough without any buffs. They are though, don't falter to light weapons like the rest of the AM non-vehicles and hit pretty hard. A niche that they fill pretty alone in the IG codex. I'm no tournament player but I would undouptedly still take them when they could not be buffed. Also Bullgryn specific stratagems only arrived with greater good and they have been taken before


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 07:01:19


Post by: Galas


 Pyroalchi wrote:
I would claim that Bullgryns are good enough without any buffs. They are though, don't falter to light weapons like the rest of the AM non-vehicles and hit pretty hard. A niche that they fill pretty alone in the IG codex. I'm no tournament player but I would undouptedly still take them when they could not be buffed. Also Bullgryn specific stratagems only arrived with greater good and they have been taken before


Yeah, and is not like having a psyker casting +1 save on a big unit of bullgryns is a big investment for Imperial Guard armies. Bullgryns are probably one of the best "Good on itself" unit in the game.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 08:39:15


Post by: stratigo


 catbarf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You mean the Bullgryns that are only ever taken as long as you can get off Barrier at minimum and sometimes Shroud?


So hold on, Bullgryns are 'not that great' and shouldn't be compared to Bladeguard as a baseline, but give them just a +1 to their save and maybe a -1 to hit and suddenly they're great and regularly show up in top AM lists?

And what does that mean for Bladeguard when they get to leverage their own psychic abilities, subfaction traits, auras, doctrines, and psychic powers?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also saying they lose by a significant margin is pretty wrong. They might lose, but not by a lot. That's fine for a troop choice.


33% is a pretty significant margin. Bladeguard could go up 5pts and they'd still be point-for-point better than Custodes even without factoring in any of the force multipliers Marines have.


Custodian guard are one of the worst tools in the custodes book and you will not be seeing many of them.



Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 08:59:58


Post by: Eihnlazer


~)~ litterally 9/10 custodes lists will have at least one unit of custodian guard in it.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 09:10:09


Post by: Ice_can


It feels like more of the only marine units are competitive stop compairing Marine units to non competitive codex's complaints again

Hard not to say you ahould balance marines vrs other codex's when the 1 codex covers 50% of the competitive meta.

As not everyone wants to play vrs Green Primaris, vrs Blue Primaris, vrs Black Primaris, vrs Red Primaris, Vrs White primaris for all 5 games at an event.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 09:32:20


Post by: fraser1191


https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 09:36:17


Post by: stratigo


 Eihnlazer wrote:
~)~ litterally 9/10 custodes lists will have at least one unit of custodian guard in it.


Cause they're a CP tax and can stand on your objective. I haven't written a list with more than two squads.

They are pretty weak.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 09:45:56


Post by: Tyel


 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators


People seem to be assuming that GW will automatically update everyone else's multimeltas. Much like the idea there would be broken Storm Shield.
I wouldn't bet on it before it happens.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 09:48:29


Post by: BrianDavion


Tyel wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators


People seem to be assuming that GW will automatically update everyone else's multimeltas. Much like the idea there would be broken Storm Shield.
I wouldn't bet on it before it happens.


presumably they'll update them as the codices come out. other then marines, sobs and guard are the only factions to use multi meltas yeah?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 09:59:03


Post by: Platuan4th


BrianDavion wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators


People seem to be assuming that GW will automatically update everyone else's multimeltas. Much like the idea there would be broken Storm Shield.
I wouldn't bet on it before it happens.


presumably they'll update them as the codices come out. other then marines, sobs and guard are the only factions to use multi meltas yeah?


Ad Mech, Chaos Marines, Knights, and Chaos Knights all say hi.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 10:04:06


Post by: Matt.Kingsley


 Platuan4th wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators


People seem to be assuming that GW will automatically update everyone else's multimeltas. Much like the idea there would be broken Storm Shield.
I wouldn't bet on it before it happens.


presumably they'll update them as the codices come out. other then marines, sobs and guard are the only factions to use multi meltas yeah?


Ad Mech, Chaos Marines, Knights, and Chaos Knights all say hi.

To be fair, we don't actually know if meltaguns and other melta weapons are also changing (I don't believe any of those factions actually get multi-meltas aside from CSMs, could be remembering wrong though), especially with Eradicators having the current melta ability rather than this new one.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 10:14:01


Post by: Jidmah


Death Guard would also like the new multi-melta on their MBH very much.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 10:34:12


Post by: stratigo


There's a lot of incidental units in chaos and imperium with multimeltas.

You don't see them. Because multimeltas are bad. If they were better, you might see a few of those units.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 10:49:04


Post by: Sunny Side Up


 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators


Well, Eradicators don't have Multimeltas, they have an Assault Melta Rifle.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 11:09:01


Post by: Sentineil


Sunny Side Up wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators


Well, Eradicators don't have Multimeltas, they have an Assault Melta Rifle.


I think the point being made was that the units Eradicators are being compared to are benefitting from the multi melta change (hopefully), and as such Eradicators being better might not be so cut and dry.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 12:10:13


Post by: the_scotsman


 Platuan4th wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators


People seem to be assuming that GW will automatically update everyone else's multimeltas. Much like the idea there would be broken Storm Shield.
I wouldn't bet on it before it happens.


presumably they'll update them as the codices come out. other then marines, sobs and guard are the only factions to use multi meltas yeah?


Ad Mech, Chaos Marines, Knights, and Chaos Knights all say hi.


ad mech have no multi-meltas, I'm sure of that. Also, which knights have multi-meltas?

Are you talking about regular meltas? in which case, again not admech, but eldar, dark eldar, inquisition, harlequins, and tau all have weapons that are identical to melta guns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sentineil wrote:
Sunny Side Up wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators


Well, Eradicators don't have Multimeltas, they have an Assault Melta Rifle.


I think the point being made was that the units Eradicators are being compared to are benefitting from the multi melta change (hopefully), and as such Eradicators being better might not be so cut and dry.


That is, in my opinion given GW's history of being more than happy to hand marines extra-special versions of toys that nobody else gets despite deserving to have them, a BIG IF.

Remember, we are now more than a year into "one IRON HANDS land raider can fight nearly two identically costed <LEGION> land raiders"


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 12:28:50


Post by: Sentineil


Usually we see a name change to accompany that though. Like if it was called "Astartes Multimelta" I'd say Sisters and IG are screwed, but the fact it doesn't means I'm holding out hope. We also saw the Demolisher upgrade go to IG too.

When they improved the marine Chainsword it got the "Astartes" added in to differentiate it from others.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 12:34:11


Post by: Platuan4th


the_scotsman wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Tyel wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators


People seem to be assuming that GW will automatically update everyone else's multimeltas. Much like the idea there would be broken Storm Shield.
I wouldn't bet on it before it happens.


presumably they'll update them as the codices come out. other then marines, sobs and guard are the only factions to use multi meltas yeah?


Ad Mech, Chaos Marines, Knights, and Chaos Knights all say hi.


ad mech have no multi-meltas, I'm sure of that. Also, which knights have multi-meltas?

.


Ad Mech has MM Servitors. I forgot the Indominus Chassis has twin Meltas instead of Multi-meltas.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 12:43:39


Post by: the_scotsman


 Sentineil wrote:
Usually we see a name change to accompany that though. Like if it was called "Astartes Multimelta" I'd say Sisters and IG are screwed, but the fact it doesn't means I'm holding out hope. We also saw the Demolisher upgrade go to IG too.

When they improved the marine Chainsword it got the "Astartes" added in to differentiate it from others.


Yeah, and its still not clear if that's going to be all chainswords used by all astartes or just assault intercessors. same with storm shields.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 13:27:31


Post by: catbarf


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're missing the grand point on purpose.


No, I think you're inventing excuses to avoid addressing the point. Bullgryns do not require a large investment to make them work. Getting a single psychic power off is not stacking buff after buff after buff like some units actually do need to be useful. If all it takes is a +1 bonus to their save to make them top-tier competitive, they're not that bad to begin with.

If Bladeguard were balanced similarly to Bullgryns, they wouldn't be a terrible, broken, unusably awful unit. They'd be one that starts decent and gets good with buffs (clearly to the level of being tournament-winners), which as a Marine player you already have more of than everyone else, and certainly far more than Bullgryns can benefit from. If that feels weak, maybe the problem is less Bullgryns and more that the Primaris range as a whole is costed such that they're great without buffs, let alone with them.

You are doing exactly what I said on a previous page, 'you can't compare my Marine thing to your non-Marine thing because yours is bad', even though the non-Marine thing in particular is one of the best units in its codex that regularly sees tournament play.

stratigo wrote:
Custodian guard are one of the worst tools in the custodes book and you will not be seeing many of them.


And there it is again!

So, to both of you: What decent non-Marine unit should Bladeguard be compared to?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 15:50:27


Post by: Spoletta


Really hope that we are seeing a general increase in AT weapons damage, and a doubling of the wounds on vehicles.

If they don't, then we are done with vehicles and monsters in this edition.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 16:14:08


Post by: the_scotsman


Spoletta wrote:
and a doubling of the wounds on vehicles.


I mean this aint happening.The new datasheet for the invictor has the same number of wounds.

GW is just continuing to crank the deadliness of the game up because thats the only thing they know how to do to make people buy things.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 19:07:13


Post by: Xenomancers


 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators

Holy crap - the new flying pred has 2 MM and 2 lastalons...8 d6 damage shots per. Moves 14 too...It is going to be an amazing toll.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 19:13:22


Post by: Insectum7


 Xenomancers wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators

Holy crap - the new flying pred has 2 MM and 2 lastalons...8 d6 damage shots per. Moves 14 too...It is going to be an amazing toll.
It all depends on cost. Right now I'm comparing to a Land Speeder squadron with Multimelta/Typhoon, which is 12 S8 D6D, moves 20" and has more taste.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 19:18:40


Post by: BrianDavion


 Xenomancers wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators

Holy crap - the new flying pred has 2 MM and 2 lastalons...8 d6 damage shots per. Moves 14 too...It is going to be an amazing toll.


depends on it;s points cost and it's durability. it's it's say... T3 W2 5+ for 600 points (it won't be that bad mind you) , then it'll suck and no one'll ever touch it.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 19:29:48


Post by: Xenomancers


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?

Are you suggesting that Repulsor Executioners should cost 2000 ppm like Warhound titans? Or 6000 ppm like Warlords? That's the best idea you've ever had Xeno! What a great way to get those eyesores off the table! Maybe then loyalists will start using some of their real tanks like Sicarans. No, wait, you want a tank that can also act as a transport but still have lots of guns while being really tough. I know, Land Raider Achilles! And it's only 14 ppm more than an Executioner with the big laser whatever it is (because we all know nobody takes the big plasma whatever it is). What a brilliant idea to beautify the game, I love it. Now, how do we get rid of those godawful Ninja Not Really a Dreadnoughts......
Umm... He... He made a typo...

He meant "Who in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?" Who, not How.

It doesn't even make sense with how...

Obviously . He was implying that the executioner is overpriced, which it isn't. It goes back to your own point about how loyalist players see their units. Everything should be at least +1 of what everyone else has, for less points. So I fed him some satire. A flying tank with that many guns? And it only took a 16% hit? Compared to the points increase other armies got? And of course he wants it to be cheaper so loyalists can use it to move the already grossly underpriced eradicators quickly and safely up the board. Right, cut points for loyalists, they need all the help they can get.

Oh no - I admit that eradicators are too cheap. I literally posted it in that thread lol. The executioner is dang near 100 points over costed though. At least 80. Twin Heavy bolters are all overcosted too. 6 str5 ap -1 is not worth 30 points. That is literally insane.
I'll break it down. Executioner lost it's special ability...POTMS - all non vheicals get that. Lost the ability to fail back and shoot. Half the heavy weapons in the game give it no save when you shoot it. Why the heck would I not just take 3 vindicators for the points? 33 t8 3+ wounds compared to 16...

Ok, once again, trying to respond to what I think you're trying to say. You mean that all vehicles get the equivalent of potms now, and not all "non vheicals", right? So are you saying everything that used to have potms/daemonic machine spirit should get a discount? Then how about super heavy tanks? "Steel Behemoth" no longer makes them special by allowing them to fire their weapons into and out of melee. Want to give them a discount too? Units shouldn't get a discount just because gw changed the rules for vehicles so that they make more sense and actually encourage movement instead of penalizing it. And as far as the executioner "losing" its ability to fall back and still shoot, no one is upset about that except for people who are sad their flying armory can no longer just float away from whatever was lucky enough to make it into combat with it, despite its -2 to charge rule, so that it can unload all 173.5 of its guns into them. That was a bad rule, and few will miss it.

You mean touch in CC with a gretchen and now all you can do is shoot the gretchen. Give me a break - it's dumb. All of the respulsors special abilities are null now. 16 wounds and 3+ save is at best 250-280 points. Can get 4 las on a 12 wound 2+ save 5++ relic contemptor with 4x lascannon and 2+ BS for 190.

Yes...Titan level units seem to have been nerfed a bit...considering you can shoot them through walls and they cant shoot back - a lot of them went down in points though. Executioner went up. 375 for an executioner is flat out absurd. So the point remains - Gravis is a little undercosted but all their transports are madly overcosted. The net result is short ranged slow infantry aren't that great.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 19:33:12


Post by: fraser1191


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators

Holy crap - the new flying pred has 2 MM and 2 lastalons...8 d6 damage shots per. Moves 14 too...It is going to be an amazing toll.
It all depends on cost. Right now I'm comparing to a Land Speeder squadron with Multimelta/Typhoon, which is 12 S8 D6D, moves 20" and has more taste.


Well, straight up this bring up more questions. Like if they chose to change the Multimelta are they going to change other weapons?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 19:33:36


Post by: Xenomancers


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators

Holy crap - the new flying pred has 2 MM and 2 lastalons...8 d6 damage shots per. Moves 14 too...It is going to be an amazing toll.
It all depends on cost. Right now I'm comparing to a Land Speeder squadron with Multimelta/Typhoon, which is 12 S8 D6D, moves 20" and has more taste.

That unit right there is 285?. Obviously has more wounds and pretty similar firepower but also more mobility. So about 230-250 seems right for the new annhilator. Assuming it has an impulsor hull.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 19:36:14


Post by: Insectum7


 Xenomancers wrote:

You mean touch in CC with a gretchen and now all you can do is shoot the gretchen.
Iirc you can declare a gun or two to shoot the gretchin and then blast away at other targets if you kill it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 fraser1191 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators

Holy crap - the new flying pred has 2 MM and 2 lastalons...8 d6 damage shots per. Moves 14 too...It is going to be an amazing toll.
It all depends on cost. Right now I'm comparing to a Land Speeder squadron with Multimelta/Typhoon, which is 12 S8 D6D, moves 20" and has more taste.


Well, straight up this bring up more questions. Like if they chose to change the Multimelta are they going to change other weapons?
The only other weapons I currently suspect are getting tinkered with are the Heavy Bolter and/or Grav Cannon. The leaked points say they are both 10 points, which is pants-on-head crazy.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 19:58:08


Post by: Xenomancers


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

You mean touch in CC with a gretchen and now all you can do is shoot the gretchen.
Iirc you can declare a gun or two to shoot the gretchin and then blast away at other targets if you kill it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 fraser1191 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators

Holy crap - the new flying pred has 2 MM and 2 lastalons...8 d6 damage shots per. Moves 14 too...It is going to be an amazing toll.
It all depends on cost. Right now I'm comparing to a Land Speeder squadron with Multimelta/Typhoon, which is 12 S8 D6D, moves 20" and has more taste.


Well, straight up this bring up more questions. Like if they chose to change the Multimelta are they going to change other weapons?
The only other weapons I currently suspect are getting tinkered with are the Heavy Bolter and/or Grav Cannon. The leaked points say they are both 10 points, which is pants-on-head crazy.

You could be right but the way I interpreted it. You can shoot the gretchen away with another unit but if unit is locked with tank when it is selected to fire - the only unit you can shoot at is what you are in combat with.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 20:04:13


Post by: Insectum7


". . if a Vehicle or Monster has more than one ranged weapon, you can still choose to target units that are not within Engagement Range of the firing models unit, but they will only be able to make the attacks with that weapon if all enemy units within Engagement Range of the firing model's unit have been destroyed when you come to resolve those attacks."


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 20:48:03


Post by: Spoletta


the_scotsman wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
and a doubling of the wounds on vehicles.


I mean this aint happening.The new datasheet for the invictor has the same number of wounds.

GW is just continuing to crank the deadliness of the game up because thats the only thing they know how to do to make people buy things.


Then anything with more than 2 wounds is gone from this edition if this trend keeps up.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 20:54:29


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Eipi10 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
How in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?

Are you suggesting that Repulsor Executioners should cost 2000 ppm like Warhound titans? Or 6000 ppm like Warlords? That's the best idea you've ever had Xeno! What a great way to get those eyesores off the table! Maybe then loyalists will start using some of their real tanks like Sicarans. No, wait, you want a tank that can also act as a transport but still have lots of guns while being really tough. I know, Land Raider Achilles! And it's only 14 ppm more than an Executioner with the big laser whatever it is (because we all know nobody takes the big plasma whatever it is). What a brilliant idea to beautify the game, I love it. Now, how do we get rid of those godawful Ninja Not Really a Dreadnoughts......
Umm... He... He made a typo...

He meant "Who in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?" Who, not How.

It doesn't even make sense with how...

Obviously . He was implying that the executioner is overpriced, which it isn't. It goes back to your own point about how loyalist players see their units. Everything should be at least +1 of what everyone else has, for less points. So I fed him some satire. A flying tank with that many guns? And it only took a 16% hit? Compared to the points increase other armies got? And of course he wants it to be cheaper so loyalists can use it to move the already grossly underpriced eradicators quickly and safely up the board. Right, cut points for loyalists, they need all the help they can get.
[
Oh no - I admit that eradicators are too cheap. I literally posted it in that thread lol. The executioner is dang near 100 points over costed though. At least 80. Twin Heavy bolters are all overcosted too. 6 str5 ap -1 is not worth 30 points. That is literally insane.
I'll break it down. Executioner lost it's special ability...POTMS - all non vheicals get that. Lost the ability to fail back and shoot. Half the heavy weapons in the game give it no save when you shoot it. Why the heck would I not just take 3 vindicators for the points? 33 t8 3+ wounds compared to 16...

Ok, once again, trying to respond to what I think you're trying to say. You mean that all vehicles get the equivalent of potms now, and not all "non vheicals", right? So are you saying everything that used to have potms/daemonic machine spirit should get a discount? Then how about super heavy tanks? "Steel Behemoth" no longer makes them special by allowing them to fire their weapons into and out of melee. Want to give them a discount too? Units shouldn't get a discount just because gw changed the rules for vehicles so that they make more sense and actually encourage movement instead of penalizing it. And as far as the executioner "losing" its ability to fall back and still shoot, no one is upset about that except for people who are sad their flying armory can no longer just float away from whatever was lucky enough to make it into combat with it, despite its -2 to charge rule, so that it can unload all 173.5 of its guns into them. That was a bad rule, and few will miss it.

You mean touch in CC with a gretchen and now all you can do is shoot the gretchen. Give me a break - it's dumb. All of the respulsors special abilities are null now. 16 wounds and 3+ save is at best 250-280 points. Can get 4 las on a 12 wound 2+ save 5++ relic contemptor with 4x lascannon and 2+ BS for 190.

Yes...Titan level units seem to have been nerfed a bit...considering you can shoot them through walls and they cant shoot back - a lot of them went down in points though. Executioner went up. 375 for an executioner is flat out absurd. So the point remains - Gravis is a little undercosted but all their transports are madly overcosted. The net result is short ranged slow infantry aren't that great.

Lots of titanic units went down? Ok, I'll bite, name "lots" of titanic units that got price cuts. And I wasn't arguing that they should, I was pointing out that they also lost some of their "special" status, and are perfectly fine, just like the executioner.

As for your grot comment, please see Insectum's post above.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 21:00:24


Post by: Xenomancers


 Insectum7 wrote:
". . if a Vehicle or Monster has more than one ranged weapon, you can still choose to target units that are not within Engagement Range of the firing models unit, but they will only be able to make the attacks with that weapon if all enemy units within Engagement Range of the firing model's unit have been destroyed when you come to resolve those attacks."

All attacks are resolved simultaneously right?


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 21:02:31


Post by: Daedalus81


BrianDavion wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 fraser1191 wrote:
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/40k-new-space-marine-datasheets-spotted.html

According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators

Holy crap - the new flying pred has 2 MM and 2 lastalons...8 d6 damage shots per. Moves 14 too...It is going to be an amazing toll.


depends on it;s points cost and it's durability. it's it's say... T3 W2 5+ for 600 points (it won't be that bad mind you) , then it'll suck and no one'll ever touch it.


Well, we know parts of it.

Twin Lastalon is 70 - there's no more twinning discounts.
MM is 25, so 50.

120 points in guns. It will most certainly have fewer wounds than the Repulsor and won't be base cheaper than a Predator. Maybe 110? ~230 points or so if its T7.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 21:07:49


Post by: catbarf


 Xenomancers wrote:
All of the respulsors special abilities are null now. 16 wounds and 3+ save is at best 250-280 points. Can get 4 las on a 12 wound 2+ save 5++ relic contemptor with 4x lascannon and 2+ BS for 190.


My frame of reference is paying 200pts for a Leman Russ Tank Commander, with no invuln, no fly, and no -2 to be charged aura, and significantly less firepower, and that's one of our better units.

It sounds less like the Executioner is hideously overpriced and more that the Relic Contemptor continues to be significantly underpriced for its capabilities.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 21:13:06


Post by: Insectum7


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
". . if a Vehicle or Monster has more than one ranged weapon, you can still choose to target units that are not within Engagement Range of the firing models unit, but they will only be able to make the attacks with that weapon if all enemy units within Engagement Range of the firing model's unit have been destroyed when you come to resolve those attacks."

All attacks are resolved simultaneously right?
Nope. You resolve all attacks against one target before moving to the next target. If you declare a Vehicle is targeting two units, you resolve against the first (the grot) before moving to the second.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 21:21:26


Post by: Daedalus81


 Xenomancers wrote:


Yes...Titan level units seem to have been nerfed a bit...considering you can shoot them through walls and they cant shoot back - a lot of them went down in points though. Executioner went up. 375 for an executioner is flat out absurd. So the point remains - Gravis is a little undercosted but all their transports are madly overcosted. The net result is short ranged slow infantry aren't that great.


Just to be clear - you can shoot them through walls....if you can see them.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 21:24:36


Post by: Insectum7


 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:


Yes...Titan level units seem to have been nerfed a bit...considering you can shoot them through walls and they cant shoot back - a lot of them went down in points though. Executioner went up. 375 for an executioner is flat out absurd. So the point remains - Gravis is a little undercosted but all their transports are madly overcosted. The net result is short ranged slow infantry aren't that great.


Just to be clear - you can shoot them through walls....if you can see them.
I think he's referring to Obscuring terrain, specifically.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 21:41:34


Post by: Rihgu


 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:


Yes...Titan level units seem to have been nerfed a bit...considering you can shoot them through walls and they cant shoot back - a lot of them went down in points though. Executioner went up. 375 for an executioner is flat out absurd. So the point remains - Gravis is a little undercosted but all their transports are madly overcosted. The net result is short ranged slow infantry aren't that great.


Just to be clear - you can shoot them through walls....if you can see them.
I think he's referring to Obscuring terrain, specifically.

Right. You still have to be able to see the model to shoot through it. So if you have a 1 foot tall 3 foot wide block of styrofoam in the middle of the table, Obscuring rule does not make you able to shoot an 18+ wound model through that wall.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 21:46:55


Post by: Tyel


Repulsor Executioners suffer from terrible - and imo kind of ugly - design.

Basically its got far too many guns. Because... well its not really clear why tbh. I guess they didn't want to say "just shoot the onslaught gatling gun 3 times".

So you make it much cheaper and its daft. I've seen two more or less table someone over 3 turns.

You easily have the equivalent shooting of two tank commanders stuck on top of each other. Okay they've got 24 wounds to your 16, but you knock 100 points off and its just daft.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 21:50:26


Post by: Daedalus81


Rihgu wrote:

Right. You still have to be able to see the model to shoot through it. So if you have a 1 foot tall 3 foot wide block of styrofoam in the middle of the table, Obscuring rule does not make you able to shoot an 18+ wound model through that wall.


RAW you can, but I expect that to be FAQ'd. There's usually lots of under 5" terrain on boards, but if the board you run is all obscuring stuff...gonna have a bad time.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 22:04:27


Post by: Insectum7


Rihgu wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:


Yes...Titan level units seem to have been nerfed a bit...considering you can shoot them through walls and they cant shoot back - a lot of them went down in points though. Executioner went up. 375 for an executioner is flat out absurd. So the point remains - Gravis is a little undercosted but all their transports are madly overcosted. The net result is short ranged slow infantry aren't that great.


Just to be clear - you can shoot them through walls....if you can see them.
I think he's referring to Obscuring terrain, specifically.

Right. You still have to be able to see the model to shoot through it. So if you have a 1 foot tall 3 foot wide block of styrofoam in the middle of the table, Obscuring rule does not make you able to shoot an 18+ wound model through that wall.
Ok fine, but how often do you see giant, solid pieces of terrain like that on the table? The terrain providing the infantry-can-shoot-at-Titanic-unit-that-can't-shoot-back scenario is waaaay more common.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/05 23:30:18


Post by: Sunny Side Up


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
". . if a Vehicle or Monster has more than one ranged weapon, you can still choose to target units that are not within Engagement Range of the firing models unit, but they will only be able to make the attacks with that weapon if all enemy units within Engagement Range of the firing model's unit have been destroyed when you come to resolve those attacks."

All attacks are resolved simultaneously right?


No.

All attacks check range and line of sight before resolving the first one (including declaring multiple targets).

After that, you resolve each attack one by one (though you don't return to the previous step for checking range and line of sight as casualties are removed).



Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/06 00:50:20


Post by: Gadzilla666


 Insectum7 wrote:
Spoiler:
Rihgu wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:


Yes...Titan level units seem to have been nerfed a bit...considering you can shoot them through walls and they cant shoot back - a lot of them went down in points though. Executioner went up. 375 for an executioner is flat out absurd. So the point remains - Gravis is a little undercosted but all their transports are madly overcosted. The net result is short ranged slow infantry aren't that great.


Just to be clear - you can shoot them through walls....if you can see them.
I think he's referring to Obscuring terrain, specifically.

Right. You still have to be able to see the model to shoot through it. So if you have a 1 foot tall 3 foot wide block of styrofoam in the middle of the table, Obscuring rule does not make you able to shoot an 18+ wound model through that wall.

Ok fine, but how often do you see giant, solid pieces of terrain like that on the table? The terrain providing the infantry-can-shoot-at-Titanic-unit-that-can't-shoot-back scenario is waaaay more common.

Infantry being able to fire at super heavys through obscuring terrain isn't the problem. The idea of relatively small troops hiding in cover to ambush heavy armour with anti-tank weapons makes sense. The problem is that the obscuring rule allows something like the aforementioned executioner to hide behind the same piece of terrain and freely target that super heavy with its heavy 2, S10, AP -4, D d3-6 weapon. That rule shouldn't apply to vehicles. Obscuring should be LOS blocking for vehicles on both sides, regardless of wounds.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/06 03:41:32


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 catbarf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're missing the grand point on purpose.


No, I think you're inventing excuses to avoid addressing the point. Bullgryns do not require a large investment to make them work. Getting a single psychic power off is not stacking buff after buff after buff like some units actually do need to be useful. If all it takes is a +1 bonus to their save to make them top-tier competitive, they're not that bad to begin with.

If Bladeguard were balanced similarly to Bullgryns, they wouldn't be a terrible, broken, unusably awful unit. They'd be one that starts decent and gets good with buffs (clearly to the level of being tournament-winners), which as a Marine player you already have more of than everyone else, and certainly far more than Bullgryns can benefit from. If that feels weak, maybe the problem is less Bullgryns and more that the Primaris range as a whole is costed such that they're great without buffs, let alone with them.

You are doing exactly what I said on a previous page, 'you can't compare my Marine thing to your non-Marine thing because yours is bad', even though the non-Marine thing in particular is one of the best units in its codex that regularly sees tournament play.

stratigo wrote:
Custodian guard are one of the worst tools in the custodes book and you will not be seeing many of them.


And there it is again!

So, to both of you: What decent non-Marine unit should Bladeguard be compared to?

Honestly? A lot of melee out there is complete garbage. As of last edition, Berserker Marines, Repentia (which got a decent boost in the Sisters codex), Wardens, and Canoptek Wraiths are mostly the only melee units I would consider to be worth anything without a ton of boosts, but they all still need them in some manner (like transportation and that kinda stuff to actually reach melee for three of them). For direct comparisons Berserker Marines probably already lose since killing multi wound models is something they aren't good at overall.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/06 11:25:32


Post by: stratigo


 catbarf wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're missing the grand point on purpose.


No, I think you're inventing excuses to avoid addressing the point. Bullgryns do not require a large investment to make them work. Getting a single psychic power off is not stacking buff after buff after buff like some units actually do need to be useful. If all it takes is a +1 bonus to their save to make them top-tier competitive, they're not that bad to begin with.

If Bladeguard were balanced similarly to Bullgryns, they wouldn't be a terrible, broken, unusably awful unit. They'd be one that starts decent and gets good with buffs (clearly to the level of being tournament-winners), which as a Marine player you already have more of than everyone else, and certainly far more than Bullgryns can benefit from. If that feels weak, maybe the problem is less Bullgryns and more that the Primaris range as a whole is costed such that they're great without buffs, let alone with them.

You are doing exactly what I said on a previous page, 'you can't compare my Marine thing to your non-Marine thing because yours is bad', even though the non-Marine thing in particular is one of the best units in its codex that regularly sees tournament play.

stratigo wrote:
Custodian guard are one of the worst tools in the custodes book and you will not be seeing many of them.


And there it is again!

So, to both of you: What decent non-Marine unit should Bladeguard be compared to?


Oh, Bladeguard are way too aggressively costed.

I'd use custodes terminators (both FW and plastic varients) as the more direct comparison. They're the hard punch required to take an objective.

The primary difference between blade and custodian guard is in delivery however. Space marines have way more tools for getting units where they are needed than custodes, and so custodes don't waste the ones they have on guard. Honestly I've come around to using the melta spears, as they still have a role beyond standing on an objective with thumbs up their butt. Too bad I don't own any.


Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes @ 2020/08/06 16:40:31


Post by: Insectum7


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Spoiler:
Rihgu wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:


Yes...Titan level units seem to have been nerfed a bit...considering you can shoot them through walls and they cant shoot back - a lot of them went down in points though. Executioner went up. 375 for an executioner is flat out absurd. So the point remains - Gravis is a little undercosted but all their transports are madly overcosted. The net result is short ranged slow infantry aren't that great.


Just to be clear - you can shoot them through walls....if you can see them.
I think he's referring to Obscuring terrain, specifically.

Right. You still have to be able to see the model to shoot through it. So if you have a 1 foot tall 3 foot wide block of styrofoam in the middle of the table, Obscuring rule does not make you able to shoot an 18+ wound model through that wall.

Ok fine, but how often do you see giant, solid pieces of terrain like that on the table? The terrain providing the infantry-can-shoot-at-Titanic-unit-that-can't-shoot-back scenario is waaaay more common.

Infantry being able to fire at super heavys through obscuring terrain isn't the problem. The idea of relatively small troops hiding in cover to ambush heavy armour with anti-tank weapons makes sense. The problem is that the obscuring rule allows something like the aforementioned executioner to hide behind the same piece of terrain and freely target that super heavy with its heavy 2, S10, AP -4, D d3-6 weapon. That rule shouldn't apply to vehicles. Obscuring should be LOS blocking for vehicles on both sides, regardless of wounds.
Ahh, I see. Ok that's a more reasonable issue. I guess I consider most vehicles to be pretty big, and I'd think the Titanic unit would be able to shuffle to the side a bit in order to draw LOS to some point on the hull. Then again, lots of infantry units have big footprints, too.

I think the idea is that it can still be tricky to draw a bead on many vehicles in dense terrain, and that there is a certain size where that's just no longer viable. That makes sense to me. I also think for the sake of gameplay involving traditionally sized vehicles, the rules as they are wind up being better, and the game should be designed around infantry and non-Titanic vehicles at the core. The fact that theres a bit of wonkiness around superheavies is acceptable in that context.