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2020/08/05 13:27:31
Subject: Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
No, I think you're inventing excuses to avoid addressing the point. Bullgryns do not require a large investment to make them work. Getting a single psychic power off is not stacking buff after buff after buff like some units actually do need to be useful. If all it takes is a +1 bonus to their save to make them top-tier competitive, they're not that bad to begin with.
If Bladeguard were balanced similarly to Bullgryns, they wouldn't be a terrible, broken, unusably awful unit. They'd be one that starts decent and gets good with buffs (clearly to the level of being tournament-winners), which as a Marine player you already have more of than everyone else, and certainly far more than Bullgryns can benefit from. If that feels weak, maybe the problem is less Bullgryns and more that the Primaris range as a whole is costed such that they're great without buffs, let alone with them.
You are doing exactly what I said on a previous page, 'you can't compare my Marine thing to your non-Marine thing because yours is bad', even though the non-Marine thing in particular is one of the best units in its codex that regularly sees tournament play.
stratigo wrote: Custodian guard are one of the worst tools in the custodes book and you will not be seeing many of them.
And there it is again!
So, to both of you: What decent non-Marine unit should Bladeguard be compared to?
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/08/05 13:40:46
I mean this aint happening.The new datasheet for the invictor has the same number of wounds.
GW is just continuing to crank the deadliness of the game up because thats the only thing they know how to do to make people buy things.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2020/08/05 19:07:13
Subject: Re:Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators
Holy crap - the new flying pred has 2 MM and 2 lastalons...8 d6 damage shots per. Moves 14 too...It is going to be an amazing toll.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/08/05 19:13:22
Subject: Re:Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators
Holy crap - the new flying pred has 2 MM and 2 lastalons...8 d6 damage shots per. Moves 14 too...It is going to be an amazing toll.
depends on it;s points cost and it's durability. it's it's say... T3 W2 5+ for 600 points (it won't be that bad mind you) , then it'll suck and no one'll ever touch it.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/08/05 19:29:48
Subject: Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
Xenomancers wrote: How in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?
Are you suggesting that Repulsor Executioners should cost 2000 ppm like Warhound titans? Or 6000 ppm like Warlords? That's the best idea you've ever had Xeno! What a great way to get those eyesores off the table! Maybe then loyalists will start using some of their real tanks like Sicarans. No, wait, you want a tank that can also act as a transport but still have lots of guns while being really tough. I know, Land Raider Achilles! And it's only 14 ppm more than an Executioner with the big laser whatever it is (because we all know nobody takes the big plasma whatever it is). What a brilliant idea to beautify the game, I love it. Now, how do we get rid of those godawful Ninja Not Really a Dreadnoughts......
Umm... He... He made a typo...
He meant "Who in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?" Who, not How.
It doesn't even make sense with how...
Obviously . He was implying that the executioner is overpriced, which it isn't. It goes back to your own point about how loyalist players see their units. Everything should be at least +1 of what everyone else has, for less points. So I fed him some satire. A flying tank with that many guns? And it only took a 16% hit? Compared to the points increase other armies got? And of course he wants it to be cheaper so loyalists can use it to move the already grossly underpriced eradicators quickly and safely up the board. Right, cut points for loyalists, they need all the help they can get.
Oh no - I admit that eradicators are too cheap. I literally posted it in that thread lol. The executioner is dang near 100 points over costed though. At least 80. Twin Heavy bolters are all overcosted too. 6 str5 ap -1 is not worth 30 points. That is literally insane.
I'll break it down. Executioner lost it's special ability...POTMS - all non vheicals get that. Lost the ability to fail back and shoot. Half the heavy weapons in the game give it no save when you shoot it. Why the heck would I not just take 3 vindicators for the points? 33 t8 3+ wounds compared to 16...
Ok, once again, trying to respond to what I think you're trying to say. You mean that all vehicles get the equivalent of potms now, and not all "non vheicals", right? So are you saying everything that used to have potms/daemonic machine spirit should get a discount? Then how about super heavy tanks? "Steel Behemoth" no longer makes them special by allowing them to fire their weapons into and out of melee. Want to give them a discount too? Units shouldn't get a discount just because gw changed the rules for vehicles so that they make more sense and actually encourage movement instead of penalizing it. And as far as the executioner "losing" its ability to fall back and still shoot, no one is upset about that except for people who are sad their flying armory can no longer just float away from whatever was lucky enough to make it into combat with it, despite its -2 to charge rule, so that it can unload all 173.5 of its guns into them. That was a bad rule, and few will miss it.
You mean touch in CC with a gretchen and now all you can do is shoot the gretchen. Give me a break - it's dumb. All of the respulsors special abilities are null now. 16 wounds and 3+ save is at best 250-280 points. Can get 4 las on a 12 wound 2+ save 5++ relic contemptor with 4x lascannon and 2+ BS for 190.
Yes...Titan level units seem to have been nerfed a bit...considering you can shoot them through walls and they cant shoot back - a lot of them went down in points though. Executioner went up. 375 for an executioner is flat out absurd. So the point remains - Gravis is a little undercosted but all their transports are madly overcosted. The net result is short ranged slow infantry aren't that great.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/08/05 19:33:12
Subject: Re:Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators
Holy crap - the new flying pred has 2 MM and 2 lastalons...8 d6 damage shots per. Moves 14 too...It is going to be an amazing toll.
It all depends on cost. Right now I'm comparing to a Land Speeder squadron with Multimelta/Typhoon, which is 12 S8 D6D, moves 20" and has more taste.
That unit right there is 285?. Obviously has more wounds and pretty similar firepower but also more mobility. So about 230-250 seems right for the new annhilator. Assuming it has an impulsor hull.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/08/05 19:36:14
Subject: Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators
Holy crap - the new flying pred has 2 MM and 2 lastalons...8 d6 damage shots per. Moves 14 too...It is going to be an amazing toll.
It all depends on cost. Right now I'm comparing to a Land Speeder squadron with Multimelta/Typhoon, which is 12 S8 D6D, moves 20" and has more taste.
Well, straight up this bring up more questions. Like if they chose to change the Multimelta are they going to change other weapons?
The only other weapons I currently suspect are getting tinkered with are the Heavy Bolter and/or Grav Cannon. The leaked points say they are both 10 points, which is pants-on-head crazy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/05 19:41:31
According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators
Holy crap - the new flying pred has 2 MM and 2 lastalons...8 d6 damage shots per. Moves 14 too...It is going to be an amazing toll.
It all depends on cost. Right now I'm comparing to a Land Speeder squadron with Multimelta/Typhoon, which is 12 S8 D6D, moves 20" and has more taste.
Well, straight up this bring up more questions. Like if they chose to change the Multimelta are they going to change other weapons?
The only other weapons I currently suspect are getting tinkered with are the Heavy Bolter and/or Grav Cannon. The leaked points say they are both 10 points, which is pants-on-head crazy.
You could be right but the way I interpreted it. You can shoot the gretchen away with another unit but if unit is locked with tank when it is selected to fire - the only unit you can shoot at is what you are in combat with.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/08/05 20:04:13
Subject: Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
". . if a Vehicle or Monster has more than one ranged weapon, you can still choose to target units that are not within Engagement Range of the firing models unit, but they will only be able to make the attacks with that weapon if all enemy units within Engagement Range of the firing model's unit have been destroyed when you come to resolve those attacks."
Xenomancers wrote: How in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?
Are you suggesting that Repulsor Executioners should cost 2000 ppm like Warhound titans? Or 6000 ppm like Warlords? That's the best idea you've ever had Xeno! What a great way to get those eyesores off the table! Maybe then loyalists will start using some of their real tanks like Sicarans. No, wait, you want a tank that can also act as a transport but still have lots of guns while being really tough. I know, Land Raider Achilles! And it's only 14 ppm more than an Executioner with the big laser whatever it is (because we all know nobody takes the big plasma whatever it is). What a brilliant idea to beautify the game, I love it. Now, how do we get rid of those godawful Ninja Not Really a Dreadnoughts......
Umm... He... He made a typo...
He meant "Who in here thinks Repulsor executioners should cost as much as a titan?" Who, not How.
It doesn't even make sense with how...
Obviously . He was implying that the executioner is overpriced, which it isn't. It goes back to your own point about how loyalist players see their units. Everything should be at least +1 of what everyone else has, for less points. So I fed him some satire. A flying tank with that many guns? And it only took a 16% hit? Compared to the points increase other armies got? And of course he wants it to be cheaper so loyalists can use it to move the already grossly underpriced eradicators quickly and safely up the board. Right, cut points for loyalists, they need all the help they can get.
[
Oh no - I admit that eradicators are too cheap. I literally posted it in that thread lol. The executioner is dang near 100 points over costed though. At least 80. Twin Heavy bolters are all overcosted too. 6 str5 ap -1 is not worth 30 points. That is literally insane.
I'll break it down. Executioner lost it's special ability...POTMS - all non vheicals get that. Lost the ability to fail back and shoot. Half the heavy weapons in the game give it no save when you shoot it. Why the heck would I not just take 3 vindicators for the points? 33 t8 3+ wounds compared to 16...
Ok, once again, trying to respond to what I think you're trying to say. You mean that all vehicles get the equivalent of potms now, and not all "non vheicals", right? So are you saying everything that used to have potms/daemonic machine spirit should get a discount? Then how about super heavy tanks? "Steel Behemoth" no longer makes them special by allowing them to fire their weapons into and out of melee. Want to give them a discount too? Units shouldn't get a discount just because gw changed the rules for vehicles so that they make more sense and actually encourage movement instead of penalizing it. And as far as the executioner "losing" its ability to fall back and still shoot, no one is upset about that except for people who are sad their flying armory can no longer just float away from whatever was lucky enough to make it into combat with it, despite its -2 to charge rule, so that it can unload all 173.5 of its guns into them. That was a bad rule, and few will miss it.
You mean touch in CC with a gretchen and now all you can do is shoot the gretchen. Give me a break - it's dumb. All of the respulsors special abilities are null now. 16 wounds and 3+ save is at best 250-280 points. Can get 4 las on a 12 wound 2+ save 5++ relic contemptor with 4x lascannon and 2+ BS for 190.
Yes...Titan level units seem to have been nerfed a bit...considering you can shoot them through walls and they cant shoot back - a lot of them went down in points though. Executioner went up. 375 for an executioner is flat out absurd. So the point remains - Gravis is a little undercosted but all their transports are madly overcosted. The net result is short ranged slow infantry aren't that great.
Lots of titanic units went down? Ok, I'll bite, name "lots" of titanic units that got price cuts. And I wasn't arguing that they should, I was pointing out that they also lost some of their "special" status, and are perfectly fine, just like the executioner.
As for your grot comment, please see Insectum's post above.
2020/08/05 21:00:24
Subject: Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
Insectum7 wrote: ". . if a Vehicle or Monster has more than one ranged weapon, you can still choose to target units that are not within Engagement Range of the firing models unit, but they will only be able to make the attacks with that weapon if all enemy units within Engagement Range of the firing model's unit have been destroyed when you come to resolve those attacks."
All attacks are resolved simultaneously right?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/08/05 21:02:31
Subject: Re:Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
According to this the Multimelta is now heavy 2 so this changes how we view eradicators. Or Multimelta devastators
Holy crap - the new flying pred has 2 MM and 2 lastalons...8 d6 damage shots per. Moves 14 too...It is going to be an amazing toll.
depends on it;s points cost and it's durability. it's it's say... T3 W2 5+ for 600 points (it won't be that bad mind you) , then it'll suck and no one'll ever touch it.
Well, we know parts of it.
Twin Lastalon is 70 - there's no more twinning discounts.
MM is 25, so 50.
120 points in guns. It will most certainly have fewer wounds than the Repulsor and won't be base cheaper than a Predator. Maybe 110? ~230 points or so if its T7.
2020/08/05 21:07:49
Subject: Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
Xenomancers wrote: All of the respulsors special abilities are null now. 16 wounds and 3+ save is at best 250-280 points. Can get 4 las on a 12 wound 2+ save 5++ relic contemptor with 4x lascannon and 2+ BS for 190.
My frame of reference is paying 200pts for a Leman Russ Tank Commander, with no invuln, no fly, and no -2 to be charged aura, and significantly less firepower, and that's one of our better units.
It sounds less like the Executioner is hideously overpriced and more that the Relic Contemptor continues to be significantly underpriced for its capabilities.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/05 21:08:19
Insectum7 wrote: ". . if a Vehicle or Monster has more than one ranged weapon, you can still choose to target units that are not within Engagement Range of the firing models unit, but they will only be able to make the attacks with that weapon if all enemy units within Engagement Range of the firing model's unit have been destroyed when you come to resolve those attacks."
All attacks are resolved simultaneously right?
Nope. You resolve all attacks against one target before moving to the next target. If you declare a Vehicle is targeting two units, you resolve against the first (the grot) before moving to the second.
Yes...Titan level units seem to have been nerfed a bit...considering you can shoot them through walls and they cant shoot back - a lot of them went down in points though. Executioner went up. 375 for an executioner is flat out absurd. So the point remains - Gravis is a little undercosted but all their transports are madly overcosted. The net result is short ranged slow infantry aren't that great.
Just to be clear - you can shoot them through walls....if you can see them.
2020/08/05 21:24:36
Subject: Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
Yes...Titan level units seem to have been nerfed a bit...considering you can shoot them through walls and they cant shoot back - a lot of them went down in points though. Executioner went up. 375 for an executioner is flat out absurd. So the point remains - Gravis is a little undercosted but all their transports are madly overcosted. The net result is short ranged slow infantry aren't that great.
Just to be clear - you can shoot them through walls....if you can see them.
I think he's referring to Obscuring terrain, specifically.
Yes...Titan level units seem to have been nerfed a bit...considering you can shoot them through walls and they cant shoot back - a lot of them went down in points though. Executioner went up. 375 for an executioner is flat out absurd. So the point remains - Gravis is a little undercosted but all their transports are madly overcosted. The net result is short ranged slow infantry aren't that great.
Just to be clear - you can shoot them through walls....if you can see them.
I think he's referring to Obscuring terrain, specifically.
Right. You still have to be able to see the model to shoot through it. So if you have a 1 foot tall 3 foot wide block of styrofoam in the middle of the table, Obscuring rule does not make you able to shoot an 18+ wound model through that wall.
Repulsor Executioners suffer from terrible - and imo kind of ugly - design.
Basically its got far too many guns. Because... well its not really clear why tbh. I guess they didn't want to say "just shoot the onslaught gatling gun 3 times".
So you make it much cheaper and its daft. I've seen two more or less table someone over 3 turns.
You easily have the equivalent shooting of two tank commanders stuck on top of each other. Okay they've got 24 wounds to your 16, but you knock 100 points off and its just daft.
2020/08/05 21:48:20
Subject: Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
Right. You still have to be able to see the model to shoot through it. So if you have a 1 foot tall 3 foot wide block of styrofoam in the middle of the table, Obscuring rule does not make you able to shoot an 18+ wound model through that wall.
RAW you can, but I expect that to be FAQ'd. There's usually lots of under 5" terrain on boards, but if the board you run is all obscuring stuff...gonna have a bad time.
2020/08/05 22:04:27
Subject: Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
Yes...Titan level units seem to have been nerfed a bit...considering you can shoot them through walls and they cant shoot back - a lot of them went down in points though. Executioner went up. 375 for an executioner is flat out absurd. So the point remains - Gravis is a little undercosted but all their transports are madly overcosted. The net result is short ranged slow infantry aren't that great.
Just to be clear - you can shoot them through walls....if you can see them.
I think he's referring to Obscuring terrain, specifically.
Right. You still have to be able to see the model to shoot through it. So if you have a 1 foot tall 3 foot wide block of styrofoam in the middle of the table, Obscuring rule does not make you able to shoot an 18+ wound model through that wall.
Ok fine, but how often do you see giant, solid pieces of terrain like that on the table? The terrain providing the infantry-can-shoot-at-Titanic-unit-that-can't-shoot-back scenario is waaaay more common.
Insectum7 wrote: ". . if a Vehicle or Monster has more than one ranged weapon, you can still choose to target units that are not within Engagement Range of the firing models unit, but they will only be able to make the attacks with that weapon if all enemy units within Engagement Range of the firing model's unit have been destroyed when you come to resolve those attacks."
All attacks are resolved simultaneously right?
No.
All attacks check range and line of sight before resolving the first one (including declaring multiple targets).
After that, you resolve each attack one by one (though you don't return to the previous step for checking range and line of sight as casualties are removed).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/05 23:30:50
2020/08/06 00:50:20
Subject: Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
Yes...Titan level units seem to have been nerfed a bit...considering you can shoot them through walls and they cant shoot back - a lot of them went down in points though. Executioner went up. 375 for an executioner is flat out absurd. So the point remains - Gravis is a little undercosted but all their transports are madly overcosted. The net result is short ranged slow infantry aren't that great.
Just to be clear - you can shoot them through walls....if you can see them.
I think he's referring to Obscuring terrain, specifically.
Right. You still have to be able to see the model to shoot through it. So if you have a 1 foot tall 3 foot wide block of styrofoam in the middle of the table, Obscuring rule does not make you able to shoot an 18+ wound model through that wall.
Ok fine, but how often do you see giant, solid pieces of terrain like that on the table? The terrain providing the infantry-can-shoot-at-Titanic-unit-that-can't-shoot-back scenario is waaaay more common.
Infantry being able to fire at super heavys through obscuring terrain isn't the problem. The idea of relatively small troops hiding in cover to ambush heavy armour with anti-tank weapons makes sense. The problem is that the obscuring rule allows something like the aforementioned executioner to hide behind the same piece of terrain and freely target that super heavy with its heavy 2, S10, AP -4, D d3-6 weapon. That rule shouldn't apply to vehicles. Obscuring should be LOS blocking for vehicles on both sides, regardless of wounds.
2020/08/06 03:41:32
Subject: Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
No, I think you're inventing excuses to avoid addressing the point. Bullgryns do not require a large investment to make them work. Getting a single psychic power off is not stacking buff after buff after buff like some units actually do need to be useful. If all it takes is a +1 bonus to their save to make them top-tier competitive, they're not that bad to begin with.
If Bladeguard were balanced similarly to Bullgryns, they wouldn't be a terrible, broken, unusably awful unit. They'd be one that starts decent and gets good with buffs (clearly to the level of being tournament-winners), which as a Marine player you already have more of than everyone else, and certainly far more than Bullgryns can benefit from. If that feels weak, maybe the problem is less Bullgryns and more that the Primaris range as a whole is costed such that they're great without buffs, let alone with them.
You are doing exactly what I said on a previous page, 'you can't compare my Marine thing to your non-Marine thing because yours is bad', even though the non-Marine thing in particular is one of the best units in its codex that regularly sees tournament play.
stratigo wrote: Custodian guard are one of the worst tools in the custodes book and you will not be seeing many of them.
And there it is again!
So, to both of you: What decent non-Marine unit should Bladeguard be compared to?
Honestly? A lot of melee out there is complete garbage. As of last edition, Berserker Marines, Repentia (which got a decent boost in the Sisters codex), Wardens, and Canoptek Wraiths are mostly the only melee units I would consider to be worth anything without a ton of boosts, but they all still need them in some manner (like transportation and that kinda stuff to actually reach melee for three of them). For direct comparisons Berserker Marines probably already lose since killing multi wound models is something they aren't good at overall.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/08/06 11:25:32
Subject: Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
No, I think you're inventing excuses to avoid addressing the point. Bullgryns do not require a large investment to make them work. Getting a single psychic power off is not stacking buff after buff after buff like some units actually do need to be useful. If all it takes is a +1 bonus to their save to make them top-tier competitive, they're not that bad to begin with.
If Bladeguard were balanced similarly to Bullgryns, they wouldn't be a terrible, broken, unusably awful unit. They'd be one that starts decent and gets good with buffs (clearly to the level of being tournament-winners), which as a Marine player you already have more of than everyone else, and certainly far more than Bullgryns can benefit from. If that feels weak, maybe the problem is less Bullgryns and more that the Primaris range as a whole is costed such that they're great without buffs, let alone with them.
You are doing exactly what I said on a previous page, 'you can't compare my Marine thing to your non-Marine thing because yours is bad', even though the non-Marine thing in particular is one of the best units in its codex that regularly sees tournament play.
stratigo wrote: Custodian guard are one of the worst tools in the custodes book and you will not be seeing many of them.
And there it is again!
So, to both of you: What decent non-Marine unit should Bladeguard be compared to?
Oh, Bladeguard are way too aggressively costed.
I'd use custodes terminators (both FW and plastic varients) as the more direct comparison. They're the hard punch required to take an objective.
The primary difference between blade and custodian guard is in delivery however. Space marines have way more tools for getting units where they are needed than custodes, and so custodes don't waste the ones they have on guard. Honestly I've come around to using the melta spears, as they still have a role beyond standing on an objective with thumbs up their butt. Too bad I don't own any.
2020/08/06 16:40:31
Subject: Eradicators, Aggressors, Bladeguard Vets, Outriders etc vs Custodes
Yes...Titan level units seem to have been nerfed a bit...considering you can shoot them through walls and they cant shoot back - a lot of them went down in points though. Executioner went up. 375 for an executioner is flat out absurd. So the point remains - Gravis is a little undercosted but all their transports are madly overcosted. The net result is short ranged slow infantry aren't that great.
Just to be clear - you can shoot them through walls....if you can see them.
I think he's referring to Obscuring terrain, specifically.
Right. You still have to be able to see the model to shoot through it. So if you have a 1 foot tall 3 foot wide block of styrofoam in the middle of the table, Obscuring rule does not make you able to shoot an 18+ wound model through that wall.
Ok fine, but how often do you see giant, solid pieces of terrain like that on the table? The terrain providing the infantry-can-shoot-at-Titanic-unit-that-can't-shoot-back scenario is waaaay more common.
Infantry being able to fire at super heavys through obscuring terrain isn't the problem. The idea of relatively small troops hiding in cover to ambush heavy armour with anti-tank weapons makes sense. The problem is that the obscuring rule allows something like the aforementioned executioner to hide behind the same piece of terrain and freely target that super heavy with its heavy 2, S10, AP -4, D d3-6 weapon. That rule shouldn't apply to vehicles. Obscuring should be LOS blocking for vehicles on both sides, regardless of wounds.
Ahh, I see. Ok that's a more reasonable issue. I guess I consider most vehicles to be pretty big, and I'd think the Titanic unit would be able to shuffle to the side a bit in order to draw LOS to some point on the hull. Then again, lots of infantry units have big footprints, too.
I think the idea is that it can still be tricky to draw a bead on many vehicles in dense terrain, and that there is a certain size where that's just no longer viable. That makes sense to me. I also think for the sake of gameplay involving traditionally sized vehicles, the rules as they are wind up being better, and the game should be designed around infantry and non-Titanic vehicles at the core. The fact that theres a bit of wonkiness around superheavies is acceptable in that context.
. He was implying that the executioner is overpriced, which it isn't. It goes back to your own point about how loyalist players see their units. Everything should be at least +1 of what everyone else has, for less points. So I fed him some satire. A flying tank with that many guns? And it only took a 16% hit? Compared to the points increase other armies got? And of course he wants it to be cheaper so loyalists can use it to move the already grossly underpriced eradicators quickly and safely up the board. Right, cut points for loyalists, they need all the help they can get. 
