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Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User




So, Space marines are now getting more and more units with Custodes-like stat lines and in the case of Bladeguards even better saves than most Custodes. At the same time they are cheaper than Custodes.

Am I wrong in thinking that they are now superior to the custodes? Not to mention all the reroll mechanics space marines have.

I remember reading that a Custodes was to a space marine as a space marine is to a guardsman, i guess that is no longer true.

Consider the following around 1K lists and the new missions:

Custodes Patrol Detachment:
Shield Captain on jetbike
Custodian Guard squad (3 models)
Allarus Custodians squad (3 models)
Vexillus Praetor
Vertus Praetors (3 bikes)

All in all 11 models (7 inf, 4 bikes)

Space Marines (and bear with me here, i'm not a SM player)
Patrol Detachment 1
Primaris Captain
Intercessor Squad(5 models)
Aggressor squad (3 models)
Outrider Squad (3 models)
Eradicator Squad (3 models)

Patrol Detachment 2
Primaris Chaplain
Scout Squad (5 models)
Bladeguard Veteran Squad (3 models)
Eradicator Squad (3 models)

All in all 26 models(23 inf and 3 bikes) of which 15 have Custodes-like stats?

My bet on who is winning that mission is on the SM.



   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Those Primaris Bikers feel a little wrong compared with Adeptus Custodes bikers. They have more attacks on the charge and the same wounds. Ok, less toughtness, armor and worse weapons but...


Sadly I accept that GW has backtracked on having an army "thematically" better than Space Marines. The thing with Custodes vs Primaris Marines is that Custodes actually pay for their stats of being super elite. Primaris always receive them at a discount.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/29 13:29:50


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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[DCM]
Scheming Archon





Between the sacred silence and sleep.

Totto wrote:
I remember reading that a Custodes was to a space marine as a space marine is to a guardsman, i guess that is no longer true.


I don't play either, but I remember reading that the Custodes are superior individually, but en masse the Astartes have the edge due to their instinctual cooperation. There's enough variation in the fiction to cover any state of affairs in the rules.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




Totto wrote:
So, Space marines are now getting more and more units with Custodes-like stat lines and in the case of Bladeguards even better saves than most Custodes. At the same time they are cheaper than Custodes.

Am I wrong in thinking that they are now superior to the custodes? Not to mention all the reroll mechanics space marines have.

I remember reading that a Custodes was to a space marine as a space marine is to a guardsman, i guess that is no longer true.

Consider the following around 1K lists and the new missions:

Custodes Patrol Detachment:
Shield Captain on jetbike
Custodian Guard squad (3 models)
Allarus Custodians squad (3 models)
Vexillus Praetor
Vertus Praetors (3 bikes)

All in all 11 models (7 inf, 4 bikes)

Space Marines (and bear with me here, i'm not a SM player)
Patrol Detachment 1
Primaris Captain
Intercessor Squad(5 models)
Aggressor squad (3 models)
Outrider Squad (3 models)
Eradicator Squad (3 models)

Patrol Detachment 2
Primaris Chaplain
Scout Squad (5 models)
Bladeguard Veteran Squad (3 models)
Eradicator Squad (3 models)

All in all 26 models(23 inf and 3 bikes) of which 15 have Custodes-like stats?

My bet on who is winning that mission is on the SM.



You've taken CP off the marines with an unnecessary 2nd patrol. Scouts are moving to elites. Custodes are an innately s5 t5 2+/4++ army, marines are nowhere near that.

Comparing bladeguard (elites) to a unit of custodes troops seems most reasonable, 42 points extra gets you d2 ap -1 bolters, so out range and out damage the blade guard outside of melee. Melee threat the custodes hit 1 strength harder for d3 damage rather than d2. The big changes are custodes are t5 so more durable to small arms from the marines, they're all 2+/4++ which only the elite melee units for marines are and they hit on 2's with everything where as the marines hit on 3's.

Giving the marines the advantage, the custodes stand there get shot, 0 wounds done, marines charge, 13 attacks, 8 hit, 4 wound, 2 go through, kill a custode.

Other way round, custodes rapid fire, 6 shots, 1 dead marine, they charge, 9 attacks, a little under 8 hit, 5 wound, 2.5 go through, odds are the unit is wiped.

Nothing else has "custodes style stat lines" in that list.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




Dudeface wrote:
Totto wrote:
So, Space marines are now getting more and more units with Custodes-like stat lines and in the case of Bladeguards even better saves than most Custodes. At the same time they are cheaper than Custodes.

Am I wrong in thinking that they are now superior to the custodes? Not to mention all the reroll mechanics space marines have.

I remember reading that a Custodes was to a space marine as a space marine is to a guardsman, i guess that is no longer true.

Consider the following around 1K lists and the new missions:

Custodes Patrol Detachment:
Shield Captain on jetbike
Custodian Guard squad (3 models)
Allarus Custodians squad (3 models)
Vexillus Praetor
Vertus Praetors (3 bikes)

All in all 11 models (7 inf, 4 bikes)

Space Marines (and bear with me here, i'm not a SM player)
Patrol Detachment 1
Primaris Captain
Intercessor Squad(5 models)
Aggressor squad (3 models)
Outrider Squad (3 models)
Eradicator Squad (3 models)

Patrol Detachment 2
Primaris Chaplain
Scout Squad (5 models)
Bladeguard Veteran Squad (3 models)
Eradicator Squad (3 models)

All in all 26 models(23 inf and 3 bikes) of which 15 have Custodes-like stats?

My bet on who is winning that mission is on the SM.



You've taken CP off the marines with an unnecessary 2nd patrol. Scouts are moving to elites. Custodes are an innately s5 t5 2+/4++ army, marines are nowhere near that.

Comparing bladeguard (elites) to a unit of custodes troops seems most reasonable, 42 points extra gets you d2 ap -1 bolters, so out range and out damage the blade guard outside of melee. Melee threat the custodes hit 1 strength harder for d3 damage rather than d2. The big changes are custodes are t5 so more durable to small arms from the marines, they're all 2+/4++ which only the elite melee units for marines are and they hit on 2's with everything where as the marines hit on 3's.

Giving the marines the advantage, the custodes stand there get shot, 0 wounds done, marines charge, 13 attacks, 8 hit, 4 wound, 2 go through, kill a custode.

Other way round, custodes rapid fire, 6 shots, 1 dead marine, they charge, 9 attacks, a little under 8 hit, 5 wound, 2.5 go through, odds are the unit is wiped.

Nothing else has "custodes style stat lines" in that list.


It's a weird match-up. Yeah, one unit of Custodian Guard probably take down one unit of Space Marines. That said, the Space Marines perform vastly superior overall due to their access to Psychic Powers (Custodes have none, Sisters of Silence need a boost on their aura range or to be more durable than T3 1W to work), Bolter Discipline and Shock Assault or whatever it's called now.

Anyway, the only thing that seemed a little egregious to me was their new bikes, which I think either need to cost more or our bikes need to cost less.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/29 13:33:52


 
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut





There is actually a post on reddit with a good analysis between regular SM bikers and Outriders, which shows that all in all they are about balanced. Bikers have slightly better defensive stats and better shooting (per point), outriders have better melee.

The problem of the outriders is that they come too close to tank stats with T5 4W, so they start getting into the territory where I gladly shoot them with AT weapons, while lacking an invul save like the one the custodes have.


If you want something that is OP to what OP is to normal datasheets, then look at eradicators. Those things are scatbike level.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/29 13:41:15


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Bladeguard Veterans are better than Bullgryns in nearly every way while still being cheaper, and those are one of the better units in the AM codex.

Custodes not stacking up favorably against new Marines is a reflection of Marines generally punching above their cost. They're not as good as Custodes on an individual level, but they're sufficiently cheaper to more than make up the difference. Case in point:

Dudeface wrote:
Comparing bladeguard (elites) to a unit of custodes troops seems most reasonable, 42 points extra gets you d2 ap -1 bolters, so out range and out damage the blade guard outside of melee. Melee threat the custodes hit 1 strength harder for d3 damage rather than d2. The big changes are custodes are t5 so more durable to small arms from the marines, they're all 2+/4++ which only the elite melee units for marines are and they hit on 2's with everything where as the marines hit on 3's.

Giving the marines the advantage, the custodes stand there get shot, 0 wounds done, marines charge, 13 attacks, 8 hit, 4 wound, 2 go through, kill a custode.

Other way round, custodes rapid fire, 6 shots, 1 dead marine, they charge, 9 attacks, a little under 8 hit, 5 wound, 2.5 go through, odds are the unit is wiped.


Bladeguard Vets are 35ppm, Custodian Guard with Guardian Spears are 49ppm. Two Custodians are nearly the same cost as three Bladeguard.

My math says if 3 Bladeguard get to strike first, they shoot for 0.44 wounds, then charge and inflict another 4 wounds, for 74% damage inflicted.

2 Custodes shoot for 1.11 wounds, then charge and inflict another 3.33 wounds, for 49% damage inflicted.

The Custodes have the better shooting, but point-for-point the Bladeguard Vets take more damage and dish more out in melee.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/07/29 13:54:32


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






 Galas wrote:
Those Primaris Bikers feel a little wrong compared with Adeptus Custodes bikers. They have more attacks on the charge and the same wounds. Ok, less toughtness, armor and worse weapons but...


Sadly I accept that GW has backtracked on having an army "thematically" better than Space Marines. The thing with Custodes vs Primaris Marines is that Custodes actually pay for their stats of being super elite. Primaris always receive them at a discount.


Nah, Custodes bikers still feel much more elite for sure. Yeah Outriders has more attack, but they are more belt for anti-horde in melee on the charge. Praetors has more anti-infantry guns and elite melee, they are more like Shiny Spears.

Not only are they +1T and +1str base, but also has a 4++, their weapon gives them an additional +1str and D3, also everything hits on 2+. Honestly, Outriders are not really all that good if you compare them Point for points to Marine bikers and Scout Bikers.

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Longtime Dakkanaut




The biggest issue is alot of the new primaris stuff is a little undercosted on its own add in the undercosted buff auras and they blow balance out of the water.

While the Outriders don't seem that broken compaired to bikers the issue is 4W quickly renders a lot of weapons horrendously inefficient against them.

More importantly it's yet also another viable unit that has design space cross over with a number of units from other codex's that pay the same or more points for lesser statlines. Many xeno players are frankly fed up watching GW undervalue statlines on marines while charging them premiums for their stats

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/29 14:13:50


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

Spoletta wrote:
There is actually a post on reddit with a good analysis between regular SM bikers and Outriders, which shows that all in all they are about balanced. Bikers have slightly better defensive stats and better shooting (per point), outriders have better melee.


If you mean this thread, the general conclusion is that there's not much reason to take regular Bikers anymore. Outriders are tougher, better in melee, don't have to worry about Blast or Morale. They only lose out in shooting and resilience to anti-tank weapons, but if your opponent is putting lascannons into 45pt models, you're already winning. It's not a hard decision; any biker-heavy White Scars army is going to prefer Outriders unless they're planning on shenanigans involving meltaguns.

Again, not Custodes-tier, but overperforming for the cost even against models within the same codex, let alone other codices.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Yeah, bladeguard make custodes look like a joke.

Custodes get:

1 (1) bolt shot at 12" range.
1 point of toughness
1 point of strength (S5 to S6, arguably the single least important S shift in the game)

Bladeguard get:

Shock assault (Lol, just a casual 25% damage increase)
Flat damage 2 vs D3
A marine level chapter tactic
Access to a 100pt transport that can carry fething 6 of them and can move 14" with fly and drop them off after moving so they can charge O.O

6 bladeguard fit in an impulsor
4 custodes fit in a fething land raider

Oh also casually 35pts for bladeguard vs 49 for custodes, LOL.

Make any of that make sense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/29 14:28:40


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
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A unit disembarking from an Impulsor after it moves cannot charge.

Also, the Custodes Bolter shot is D2.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/29 14:40:48


   
Made in us
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The Newman wrote:
A unit disembarking from an Impulsor after it moves cannot charge.


Well that's good at least. Still a ridiculously OP combination. An impulsor flies up onto a midboard objective with 2x bladeguard squads inside: the feth are you supposed to do against that as an opponent? Compare them to Custodes, Wraithguard, MANZ, any similar unit and they just blow them the feth out of the water with how crazy they are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/29 14:41:14


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine



Ottawa

Spoletta wrote:
There is actually a post on reddit with a good analysis between regular SM bikers and Outriders, which shows that all in all they are about balanced. Bikers have slightly better defensive stats and better shooting (per point), outriders have better melee.

The problem of the outriders is that they come too close to tank stats with T5 4W, so they start getting into the territory where I gladly shoot them with AT weapons, while lacking an invul save like the one the custodes have.


They may not have a permanent invuln save, but they do have access to one for the turns in which they will be facing your fire. It's just a pity that right now the Outriders are in such a small unit. I'd love bigger bike units, even if it's just 5 to 6 total. I also wonder if, like the attack bike, an Invader ATV can join a bike squad.

   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I actually agree that normal space marine bikers are just better than Outriders. They are basically the same point per point... but bikers can take specials.

Actually, I have always believed that space marine bikers were "better" intercessors, the things that made them worse was the problems with bikes and ruins and intercessors being troops for CP generation. With both of those things fixed, I believe space marine bikers are quite better than Intercessors, and thats something because we all know how good intercessors are.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/29 15:00:55


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Wraithblades:

If you go with the variant that gets the same number of attacks the Bladeguard get, you get a unit thats:

1) got damage 1 instead of damage 2!
2) got 3+ sv no invuln instead of 2+ 4++!
3) got move 5" instead of move 6"!
4) Hits on 3s instead of hits on 2s!
5) costs 5 points more!
6) Gets +1T, hooray, such balance!

And if you take the Axes, you get a unit with:

1) 1 fewer attack!
2) hits on 4s instead of hits on 2s!
3) 3+sv instead of 2+sv!
4) Move 5" instead of Move 6"!
5) D3 damage instead of Flat 2 Damage!
6) Costs 5ppm more!
7) +1T and +2S - hooray, such balance!

And remember folks: People are currently talking about wraiths as one of the single best units Eldar has going into 9th edition. This is the MOST COMPETITIVE THEYVE GOT going against these clownguard.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

the_scotsman wrote:
Wraithblades:

If you go with the variant that gets the same number of attacks the Bladeguard get, you get a unit thats:

1) got damage 1 instead of damage 2!
2) got 3+ sv no invuln instead of 2+ 4++!
3) got move 5" instead of move 6"!
4) Hits on 3s instead of hits on 2s!
5) costs 5 points more!
6) Gets +1T, hooray, such balance!

And if you take the Axes, you get a unit with:

1) 1 fewer attack!
2) hits on 4s instead of hits on 2s!
3) 3+sv instead of 2+sv!
4) Move 5" instead of Move 6"!
5) D3 damage instead of Flat 2 Damage!
6) Costs 5ppm more!
7) +1T and +2S - hooray, such balance!

And remember folks: People are currently talking about wraiths as one of the single best units Eldar has going into 9th edition. This is the MOST COMPETITIVE THEYVE GOT going against these clownguard.

A few things here: Wraithblades are +2T over bladeguard not +1T and bladeguard only hit on 2s with the ancient near by who is more expensive than two bladeguard. The ancient in addition is terrible in melee and is only armed with a pistol. He is the worst model in the box IMO.
   
Made in us
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 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Wraithblades:

If you go with the variant that gets the same number of attacks the Bladeguard get, you get a unit thats:

1) got damage 1 instead of damage 2!
2) got 3+ sv no invuln instead of 2+ 4++!
3) got move 5" instead of move 6"!
4) Hits on 3s instead of hits on 2s!
5) costs 5 points more!
6) Gets +1T, hooray, such balance!

And if you take the Axes, you get a unit with:

1) 1 fewer attack!
2) hits on 4s instead of hits on 2s!
3) 3+sv instead of 2+sv!
4) Move 5" instead of Move 6"!
5) D3 damage instead of Flat 2 Damage!
6) Costs 5ppm more!
7) +1T and +2S - hooray, such balance!

And remember folks: People are currently talking about wraiths as one of the single best units Eldar has going into 9th edition. This is the MOST COMPETITIVE THEYVE GOT going against these clownguard.

A few things here: Wraithblades are +2T over bladeguard not +1T and bladeguard only hit on 2s with the ancient near by who is more expensive than two bladeguard. The ancient in addition is terrible in melee and is only armed with a pistol. He is the worst model in the box IMO.


Sure.

Does this make Bladeguard not have the best of both variants of Wraithguard (the attacks of a sword WG, the damage from the axe WG, and the invuln from the axe WG) for 5ppm less?

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




 catbarf wrote:
Bladeguard Veterans are better than Bullgryns in nearly every way while still being cheaper, and those are one of the better units in the AM codex.

Custodes not stacking up favorably against new Marines is a reflection of Marines generally punching above their cost. They're not as good as Custodes on an individual level, but they're sufficiently cheaper to more than make up the difference. Case in point:

Dudeface wrote:
Comparing bladeguard (elites) to a unit of custodes troops seems most reasonable, 42 points extra gets you d2 ap -1 bolters, so out range and out damage the blade guard outside of melee. Melee threat the custodes hit 1 strength harder for d3 damage rather than d2. The big changes are custodes are t5 so more durable to small arms from the marines, they're all 2+/4++ which only the elite melee units for marines are and they hit on 2's with everything where as the marines hit on 3's.

Giving the marines the advantage, the custodes stand there get shot, 0 wounds done, marines charge, 13 attacks, 8 hit, 4 wound, 2 go through, kill a custode.

Other way round, custodes rapid fire, 6 shots, 1 dead marine, they charge, 9 attacks, a little under 8 hit, 5 wound, 2.5 go through, odds are the unit is wiped.


Bladeguard Vets are 35ppm, Custodian Guard with Guardian Spears are 49ppm. Two Custodians are nearly the same cost as three Bladeguard.

My math says if 3 Bladeguard get to strike first, they shoot for 0.44 wounds, then charge and inflict another 4 wounds, for 74% damage inflicted.

2 Custodes shoot for 1.11 wounds, then charge and inflict another 3.33 wounds, for 49% damage inflicted.

The Custodes have the better shooting, but point-for-point the Bladeguard Vets take more damage and dish more out in melee.


Custodes are 3 wounds, because they're d2 weapons you lose the 4th wound in melee unless you got lucky with that pistol. Likewise I have custodes doing 5 damage in melee (9 attacks, 7.5 hit (hitting on 2's), 5 wounds (wound on 3's), 2.5 go through at 2 damage a piece (is an average) is 5 wounds done. Custodes win hands down.

Edit: Oh I see you used 2 custodes, your better off running more bladeguard, since 2 custodes isn't a legal unit but either way equal points perform reasonably equally, which ins't shocking.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/29 15:28:38


 
   
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Manchester, UK

I got interested when reading the title, as the first word made me think of the Leman Russ variant.

It's never the Leman Russ variant...

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 Galas wrote:
I actually agree that normal space marine bikers are just better than Outriders. They are basically the same point per point... but bikers can take specials.

Actually, I have always believed that space marine bikers were "better" intercessors, the things that made them worse was the problems with bikes and ruins and intercessors being troops for CP generation. With both of those things fixed, I believe space marine bikers are quite better than Intercessors, and thats something because we all know how good intercessors are.
Aye, the capacity for Specials is crucial for the Bikes.

Also amusing is the Atrack Bike has the exact statline of Outriders.

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So which of the two forces in the OP do you think would win a 9th mission easiest?
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

the_scotsman wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Wraithblades:

If you go with the variant that gets the same number of attacks the Bladeguard get, you get a unit thats:

1) got damage 1 instead of damage 2!
2) got 3+ sv no invuln instead of 2+ 4++!
3) got move 5" instead of move 6"!
4) Hits on 3s instead of hits on 2s!
5) costs 5 points more!
6) Gets +1T, hooray, such balance!

And if you take the Axes, you get a unit with:

1) 1 fewer attack!
2) hits on 4s instead of hits on 2s!
3) 3+sv instead of 2+sv!
4) Move 5" instead of Move 6"!
5) D3 damage instead of Flat 2 Damage!
6) Costs 5ppm more!
7) +1T and +2S - hooray, such balance!

And remember folks: People are currently talking about wraiths as one of the single best units Eldar has going into 9th edition. This is the MOST COMPETITIVE THEYVE GOT going against these clownguard.

A few things here: Wraithblades are +2T over bladeguard not +1T and bladeguard only hit on 2s with the ancient near by who is more expensive than two bladeguard. The ancient in addition is terrible in melee and is only armed with a pistol. He is the worst model in the box IMO.


Sure.

Does this make Bladeguard not have the best of both variants of Wraithguard (the attacks of a sword WG, the damage from the axe WG, and the invuln from the axe WG) for 5ppm less?

No not at all. The difference between Str7 and 5 is pretty important in a lot of match ups. The funny part for me here is I just played a game yesterday where wraithguard with axes went toe to toe with bladeguard. I won the fight only because my captain came in with the burning blade and wrecked face. Without character support the wraiths were winning.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/29 15:37:44


 
   
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Totto wrote:
So which of the two forces in the OP do you think would win a 9th mission easiest?


With the new 9th edition missions pretty much anyone wins vs custodes, they just don’t have the model count to control the board.

Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius!  
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Totto wrote:
So which of the two forces in the OP do you think would win a 9th mission easiest?


With the new 9th edition missions pretty much anyone wins vs custodes, they just don’t have the model count to control the board.

Don't need to control the board but rather to stay on an objective and not die.
Which they are kinda built to do.

I wouldn't guess who wins that match up though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/29 15:54:19


 
   
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TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Totto wrote:
So which of the two forces in the OP do you think would win a 9th mission easiest?


With the new 9th edition missions pretty much anyone wins vs custodes, they just don’t have the model count to control the board.


Ye, that's my theory as well, yet a few weeks ago all youtubers, at least the ones who "playtested" and influenced 9th edition, were raving about how fantastic Custodes was gonna be in 9th. L O L. I have yet to see any Custodes vs SM battlereport where Custodes have won, Well one actually against DA with Ravenwing, Custodes were tabled but won because they got 10 points since the opponent hadn't painted his army himself....LOL again.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Wraithblades:

If you go with the variant that gets the same number of attacks the Bladeguard get, you get a unit thats:

1) got damage 1 instead of damage 2!
2) got 3+ sv no invuln instead of 2+ 4++!
3) got move 5" instead of move 6"!
4) Hits on 3s instead of hits on 2s!
5) costs 5 points more!
6) Gets +1T, hooray, such balance!

And if you take the Axes, you get a unit with:

1) 1 fewer attack!
2) hits on 4s instead of hits on 2s!
3) 3+sv instead of 2+sv!
4) Move 5" instead of Move 6"!
5) D3 damage instead of Flat 2 Damage!
6) Costs 5ppm more!
7) +1T and +2S - hooray, such balance!

And remember folks: People are currently talking about wraiths as one of the single best units Eldar has going into 9th edition. This is the MOST COMPETITIVE THEYVE GOT going against these clownguard.

A few things here: Wraithblades are +2T over bladeguard not +1T and bladeguard only hit on 2s with the ancient near by who is more expensive than two bladeguard. The ancient in addition is terrible in melee and is only armed with a pistol. He is the worst model in the box IMO.


Sure.

Does this make Bladeguard not have the best of both variants of Wraithguard (the attacks of a sword WG, the damage from the axe WG, and the invuln from the axe WG) for 5ppm less?

No not at all. The difference between Str7 and 5 is pretty important in a lot of match ups. The funny part for me here is I just played a game yesterday where wraithguard with axes went toe to toe with bladeguard. I won the fight only because my captain came in with the burning blade and wrecked face. Without character support the wraiths were winning.

Purely anecdotal.
Did someone run the actual math on these comparisons though? We can all talk about individual model being better, but what really matters is the point for point comparison.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Illinois

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Wraithblades:

If you go with the variant that gets the same number of attacks the Bladeguard get, you get a unit thats:

1) got damage 1 instead of damage 2!
2) got 3+ sv no invuln instead of 2+ 4++!
3) got move 5" instead of move 6"!
4) Hits on 3s instead of hits on 2s!
5) costs 5 points more!
6) Gets +1T, hooray, such balance!

And if you take the Axes, you get a unit with:

1) 1 fewer attack!
2) hits on 4s instead of hits on 2s!
3) 3+sv instead of 2+sv!
4) Move 5" instead of Move 6"!
5) D3 damage instead of Flat 2 Damage!
6) Costs 5ppm more!
7) +1T and +2S - hooray, such balance!

And remember folks: People are currently talking about wraiths as one of the single best units Eldar has going into 9th edition. This is the MOST COMPETITIVE THEYVE GOT going against these clownguard.

A few things here: Wraithblades are +2T over bladeguard not +1T and bladeguard only hit on 2s with the ancient near by who is more expensive than two bladeguard. The ancient in addition is terrible in melee and is only armed with a pistol. He is the worst model in the box IMO.


Sure.

Does this make Bladeguard not have the best of both variants of Wraithguard (the attacks of a sword WG, the damage from the axe WG, and the invuln from the axe WG) for 5ppm less?

No not at all. The difference between Str7 and 5 is pretty important in a lot of match ups. The funny part for me here is I just played a game yesterday where wraithguard with axes went toe to toe with bladeguard. I won the fight only because my captain came in with the burning blade and wrecked face. Without character support the wraiths were winning.

Purely anecdotal.
Did someone run the actual math on these comparisons though? We can all talk about individual model being better, but what really matters is the point for point comparison.

I could but I honestly couldn't care less about hypothetical 40k.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Blood Hawk wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Wraithblades:

If you go with the variant that gets the same number of attacks the Bladeguard get, you get a unit thats:

1) got damage 1 instead of damage 2!
2) got 3+ sv no invuln instead of 2+ 4++!
3) got move 5" instead of move 6"!
4) Hits on 3s instead of hits on 2s!
5) costs 5 points more!
6) Gets +1T, hooray, such balance!

And if you take the Axes, you get a unit with:

1) 1 fewer attack!
2) hits on 4s instead of hits on 2s!
3) 3+sv instead of 2+sv!
4) Move 5" instead of Move 6"!
5) D3 damage instead of Flat 2 Damage!
6) Costs 5ppm more!
7) +1T and +2S - hooray, such balance!

And remember folks: People are currently talking about wraiths as one of the single best units Eldar has going into 9th edition. This is the MOST COMPETITIVE THEYVE GOT going against these clownguard.

A few things here: Wraithblades are +2T over bladeguard not +1T and bladeguard only hit on 2s with the ancient near by who is more expensive than two bladeguard. The ancient in addition is terrible in melee and is only armed with a pistol. He is the worst model in the box IMO.


Sure.

Does this make Bladeguard not have the best of both variants of Wraithguard (the attacks of a sword WG, the damage from the axe WG, and the invuln from the axe WG) for 5ppm less?

No not at all. The difference between Str7 and 5 is pretty important in a lot of match ups. The funny part for me here is I just played a game yesterday where wraithguard with axes went toe to toe with bladeguard. I won the fight only because my captain came in with the burning blade and wrecked face. Without character support the wraiths were winning.

Purely anecdotal.
Did someone run the actual math on these comparisons though? We can all talk about individual model being better, but what really matters is the point for point comparison.

I could but I honestly couldn't care less about hypothetical 40k.

So basically your judgment is off a one time thing instead of what would've happened in 90% of the other games?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 Blood Hawk wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
Wraithblades:

If you go with the variant that gets the same number of attacks the Bladeguard get, you get a unit thats:

1) got damage 1 instead of damage 2!
2) got 3+ sv no invuln instead of 2+ 4++!
3) got move 5" instead of move 6"!
4) Hits on 3s instead of hits on 2s!
5) costs 5 points more!
6) Gets +1T, hooray, such balance!

And if you take the Axes, you get a unit with:

1) 1 fewer attack!
2) hits on 4s instead of hits on 2s!
3) 3+sv instead of 2+sv!
4) Move 5" instead of Move 6"!
5) D3 damage instead of Flat 2 Damage!
6) Costs 5ppm more!
7) +1T and +2S - hooray, such balance!

And remember folks: People are currently talking about wraiths as one of the single best units Eldar has going into 9th edition. This is the MOST COMPETITIVE THEYVE GOT going against these clownguard.

A few things here: Wraithblades are +2T over bladeguard not +1T and bladeguard only hit on 2s with the ancient near by who is more expensive than two bladeguard. The ancient in addition is terrible in melee and is only armed with a pistol. He is the worst model in the box IMO.


Sure.

Does this make Bladeguard not have the best of both variants of Wraithguard (the attacks of a sword WG, the damage from the axe WG, and the invuln from the axe WG) for 5ppm less?

No not at all. The difference between Str7 and 5 is pretty important in a lot of match ups. The funny part for me here is I just played a game yesterday where wraithguard with axes went toe to toe with bladeguard. I won the fight only because my captain came in with the burning blade and wrecked face. Without character support the wraiths were winning.

Purely anecdotal.
Did someone run the actual math on these comparisons though? We can all talk about individual model being better, but what really matters is the point for point comparison.


If you just jam them into eachother they're roughly the same, it basically comes down to who gets the charge because the first turn a unit of 3 has the momentum to kill 1 of the opposing unit before they make their attacks on the first round.

I will assume because it's the minimum size unit of WG and the max size unit of BG, the poster was talking about FIVE WG fighting THREE BG, so..not just anecdotal, but probably dishonest as well.

Actual comparisons of their combat capabilities, axeguard vs Bladeguard. Assuming no doctrines and BG use their pistols.

VS GEQ
Axeguard: kill 4 on the charge
Bladeguard: Kill 7 on the charge

VS MEQ (Assuming multidamage applies)
Axeguard: 5 damage on the charge
Bladeguard: 10.3 damage on the charge

Variance on damage rolls give Bladeguard an advantage vs 2W meq. Axeguard get the same wound efficiency loss vs 3W meq on average rolls.

VS Standard Vehicle (T7 3+)
Axeguard: 3.75 damage on the charge
Bladeguard: 5.13 damage on the charge

In no instance does the bladeguards' +1 to hit, pistols, and 4 additional attacks not eclipse the Wraithguards' damage with axes. Bladeguard are also more durable vs anything but krak missiles/lascannons which double out their toughness while not doubling out the WG's toughness.




"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
 
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