I am not a necron player, but I am really impressed with the design quality and volume of the new necron releases. It's really cool and refreshing to see a xenos faction get so much attention and have their range massively expanded. Also most of the new kits really do look fantastic, at least imo.
Which brings me to the main point of this post. I think this necron release is grounds for optimism that gw is able and willing to give love to xenos factions.
I for one am optimistic, that we are going to see a massive overhaul of craftworlds in the not so distant future, maybe even in 2021, which is extremely overdue.
They're the poster boy NPC Faction this time around by virtue of featuring in the new starter sets. I won't hold my breath for any more mega releases on the Necron's scale for some time yet.
I mean its a message that gets somewhat lost on Dakka (heck the first response in this thread is already starting to slip toward doom and several others are well beyond twilight and into the gloom).
Sure GW didn't give every Xenos player everything they wanted in one release; but darn it Necrons are getting a fantastic uplift and addition to their range. They'll sit beside tyranids as one of the Xenos factions that's really at the upper edge of things (and I say that knowing Tyranids have a few more finecast to lose and could really do with some new gaunts that don't have split heads to assemble).
Arbitrator wrote: They're the poster boy NPC Faction this time around by virtue of featuring in the new starter sets. I won't hold my breath for any more mega releases on the Necron's scale for some time yet.
Why not? Indomitus sold Extremely well and not just because of the marine part. The new necron releases have been met with almost universal praise.
If they release a craftworlds VS imperial guard box with brand new plastic aspect warriors and guard regiments respectively, it would be like printing money.
It's great Necrons are getting attention and new models and all, but gosh is it rough seeing a faction once known for it's incredibly tough troops just dwindle into a horde in comparison to what Marines can field.
Arbitrator wrote: They're the poster boy NPC Faction this time around by virtue of featuring in the new starter sets. I won't hold my breath for any more mega releases on the Necron's scale for some time yet.
Yep. DG got tons of releases at the start. Didn't stop 8e being marine after marine after marine with marines getting best rules and most models.
Marines is GW's cash cow. If you want GW game where one faction doesn't dominate AOS is only option. 40k is all about marines. That's the way things are. When it isn't that's the day GW goes down.
Insectum7 wrote: Best Necron Troop, T5 1W. - Best SM Troop, T5 3W
It's great Necrons are getting attention and new models and all, but gosh is it rough seeing a faction once known for it's incredibly tough troops just dwindle into a horde in comparison to what Marines can field.
Yeah, I know marines are the top dog right now and get the best stuff. Trust me, I'm a custodes player and the gap between my boys and marines starts to become practically non existent, so I feel your pain. But we haven't even seen the new necron codex yet. They could still be incredibly tough due to the new rules they get.
Insectum7 wrote: Best Necron Troop, T5 1W. - Best SM Troop, T5 3W
It's great Necrons are getting attention and new models and all, but gosh is it rough seeing a faction once known for it's incredibly tough troops just dwindle into a horde in comparison to what Marines can field.
Okay but Admech Kataphrons have existed for a few years now. They're T5 and 3W
Insectum7 wrote: Best Necron Troop, T5 1W. - Best SM Troop, T5 3W
It's great Necrons are getting attention and new models and all, but gosh is it rough seeing a faction once known for it's incredibly tough troops just dwindle into a horde in comparison to what Marines can field.
I didn't realize you could sum up everything you need to know about a unit with its T and W scores. I guess everyone without a T5 3W Troop model should just hang up their 40K spurs.
Or we can wait to see the points cost along with special rules. If AOD gets worst while Reanimation Protocols get better and the points are balanced, it could be fine.
Bosskelot wrote:Okay but Admech Kataphrons have existed for a few years now. They're T5 and 3W
alextroy wrote:I didn't realize you could sum up everything you need to know about a unit with its T and W scores. I guess everyone without a T5 3W Troop model should just hang up their 40K spurs.
Or we can wait to see the points cost along with special rules. If AOD gets worst while Reanimation Protocols get better and the points are balanced, it could be fine.
I think you guys rather missed the point entirely. There was a time when the basic Necron Warrior was just as tough as a Space Marine and had RP (then called We'll Be Back) on top of it; while Immortals were even tougher.
Now while Marines are going up to W2 across the board, it looks like Immortals are staying at W1- with Marines also now getting a new troops choice that's T5/W3. Immortals have trouble going toe-to-toe with Intercessors at this point, let alone new Gravis troops.
Insectum is lamenting Necrons being further turned into a horde army while Marines become even more elite. Kataphrons and overall balance are beside the point.
Well lets not forget when Necrons first came out all they had was warriors, scarabs, immortals and a lord. A few months later a destroyer and then the monolith.
For a long time they were an elite style army because they basically didn't have much. Even if in the lore their tombs where releasing thousands of warriors at a time.
As the line has changed and gained more options so too have the unit roles shifted. We've seen warriors get a bit less powerful, but work better in larger groups. At the same time we see new elite style units starting to take specific niches above them.
It's just a general evolution of the army. If anything weaker warriors fits with the lore and the idea of vast ranks emerging from their tombs.
Overread wrote: Well lets not forget when Necrons first came out all they had was warriors, scarabs, immortals and a lord. A few months later a destroyer and then the monolith.
Correction, they didn't even have Immortals until 3rd edition. Necrons first appeared in 2nd edition, and a Necron Warrior was T5 with a 2+ save and an early incarnation of the Resurrection ability. This is in comparison to a Space Marines T4, 3+ at the time. A Warrior was 44 points to a SMs 30.
In 3rd ed, a Warrior was 18 points to the SM 15, and an Immortal was 28 and well worth it.
Overread wrote: It's just a general evolution of the army. If anything weaker warriors fits with the lore and the idea of vast ranks emerging from their tombs.
There is nothing stopping a never-ending horde from being made up of elites. See Tyranid Warriors.
Here's my deal. What's a scarier nemesis?
A: Legions of metal skeletons that Space Marines can kick their way through.
or
B: Trillions of hyper-advanced robots where even the lowest form of them is more than a match for humanity's best troops.
wuestenfux wrote: I’m not too enthusiastic.
New Necron models are great but their rules are mediocre.
Got to admit, the first look at 'command protocols' hasn't filled me with optimism.
A couple will probably be easy to work out what turn you should assign them to...
If army list has 'Noble' ->secret assignment -> 6" range from Character (noble or not) = (situational bonus A) OR (situational bonus B), UNLESS dynasty=relevant command=both...
that's a lot more fiddly than it needs to be.
Maybe the shooting, CC and resilience protocols (assuming they're that straightforward) are completely awesome, but +3" auras/abilities OR fall back and shoot with a penalty isn't exactly a 'Wow!' moment.
A: Legions of metal skeletons that Space Marines can kick their way through.
or
B: Trillions of hyper-advanced robots where even the lowest form of them is more than a match for humanity's best troops.
But the question is what does GW want the army to be?
A: A small elite force of unstoppable robots you can barely takedown?
B: A wave of robots with esoteric weapons that won't stay down despite you killing them time and time again?
I know the second sounds more like the Necrons in the background.
I'd rather a combination of both. A small elite force of unstoppable robots you can barely take down... that won't stay down.
That's what they were in 2nd and 3rd, and I miss that style of Necron. They lost all that when their fluff was expanded out... I appreciate the lore had to go somewhere to justify expanding the range, but a horde/wave army was the wrong step in my opinion.
To put it another way... they used to be Space Terminators (the movie variety). Now they're more like Space Tomb Kings, and unfortunately they lost a lot of mystery and scariness in the process.
Insectum7 wrote: Best Necron Troop, T5 1W. - Best SM Troop, T5 3W
It's great Necrons are getting attention and new models and all, but gosh is it rough seeing a faction once known for it's incredibly tough troops just dwindle into a horde in comparison to what Marines can field.
If you come back with RP you do so with full wounds right? Having a regenerating front line trooper with multiple wounds, a good gun and a cheap cost would be a bit of a pain and cause some bitching in the marine camps. Especially if you could buff the RP rolls. Hell you can still give wraiths RP for a turn with a strat right? If you rolled well for that it'd lead to the opponent pulling out their hair.
A: Legions of metal skeletons that Space Marines can kick their way through.
or
B: Trillions of hyper-advanced robots where even the lowest form of them is more than a match for humanity's best troops.
But the question is what does GW want the army to be?
A: A small elite force of unstoppable robots you can barely takedown?
B: A wave of robots with esoteric weapons that won't stay down despite you killing them time and time again?
I know the second sounds more like the Necrons in the background.
In 3rd edition they managed to allow both. Waves of unstoppable, elite robots was a real possibility. My Necron army of the day outnumbered my SM army, even though each infantry model was more expensive. The reason was because my Space Marines had more "mid-range" units (Dreadnoughts, Terminators, Vehicles), while Necrons were encouraged to skew towards larger numbers because of the Phase Out rule. So I had more Necron bodies, and one Monolith.
Insectum7 wrote: Best Necron Troop, T5 1W. - Best SM Troop, T5 3W
It's great Necrons are getting attention and new models and all, but gosh is it rough seeing a faction once known for it's incredibly tough troops just dwindle into a horde in comparison to what Marines can field.
If you come back with RP you do so with full wounds right? Having a regenerating front line trooper with multiple wounds, a good gun and a cheap cost would be a bit of a pain and cause some bitching in the marine camps. Especially if you could buff the RP rolls. Hell you can still give wraiths RP for a turn with a strat right? If you rolled well for that it'd lead to the opponent pulling out their hair.
Oh noes. . . don't make the marine players angry?
I'm not sure how RP is going to work out in 9th, but the fact remains that Crons had tougher models than Space Marines before and it didn't break the bank.
It was also because Necrons just didn't have much else to put on the table either. Swarming warriors was the theme because that as basically one of the very few options you actually had to build the army with.
A fair few AoS armies are the same, yes they work well using certain units en-mass. Heck Daughters of Khaine were brokenly powerful for a while with armies comprised almost entirely of Witch Aelves.
Thing is they don't have 10 different infantry models (in fact they've 2 which come from the same kit - three if they take a certain general and can enable one of their snake variations to be battleline).
I'd fully expect in the future that if GW dropped another dozen models on DoK; that we'd see their stats shift and perhaps see their infantry change from swarming to elite or somesuch.
Part of GW's balance is to decide what they want armies to look like. Mono-armies of warriors is perhaps not what they are after; so they are toning down their power in comparison to rising up others. Otherwise everyone would just take legions of warriors and all those new cool models might not sell or might only sell in very small amounts.
Overread wrote: It was also because Necrons just didn't have much else to put on the table either. Swarming warriors was the theme because that as basically one of the very few options you actually had to build the army with.
A fair few AoS armies are the same, yes they work well using certain units en-mass. Heck Daughters of Khaine were brokenly powerful for a while with armies comprised almost entirely of Witch Aelves.
Thing is they don't have 10 different infantry models (in fact they've 2 which come from the same kit - three if they take a certain general and can enable one of their snake variations to be battleline).
I'd fully expect in the future that if GW dropped another dozen models on DoK; that we'd see their stats shift and perhaps see their infantry change from swarming to elite or somesuch.
Part of GW's balance is to decide what they want armies to look like. Mono-armies of warriors is perhaps not what they are after; so they are toning down their power in comparison to rising up others. Otherwise everyone would just take legions of warriors and all those new cool models might not sell or might only sell in very small amounts.
There is zero need to make troops less individually powerful in order to make room for other, more powerful models. See exhibit A: Space Marines, an army which just gave a big boost to their standard troops while also releasing new, more powerful options. Warriors and Immortals could have stayed SM level and higher without killing the design space for other units. Nor would that mean that people would necessarily only take armies of Warriors, either. And if they did, what's your beef with that? Shouldn't the game allow for some individual expression in army composition?
Sentineil wrote: Well this was a fun thread. Positive vibes lasted all of 3 posts.
GG Dakka!
Positive vibes are only justified if GW is doing a good job.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insectum7 wrote: There is zero need to make troops less individually powerful in order to make room for other, more powerful models. See exhibit A: Space Marines, an army which just gave a big boost to their standard troops while also releasing new, more powerful options. Warriors and Immortals could have stayed SM level and higher without killing the design space for other units. Nor would that mean that people would necessarily only take armies of Warriors, either. And if they did, what's your beef with that? Shouldn't the game allow for some individual expression in army composition?
The difference is that one of these is Space Marines, and the other is not.
I think the new models look great. I was pretty positive up until the protocols. I’m just not sure that is something I wanted to have layered on. I guess I was wanting more consistency over a them.
I’m still on the positive side but time will tell.
I would love for the monolith to be good, I have always wanted one.
I don't play Necrons, but I'm excited to see them get cool new stuff. Their new model releases have been amazing IMO, almost enough so to make me start an army of them. The jury's still out on whether or not they'll actually be good on the tabletop, but so far I see no reason for doom and gloom. GW doesn't always preview the really good stratagems/relics/special rules, so I'd be willing to be there's going to be some good stuff in the codex when it drops.
I am also happy to see a Xeno faction receive so many and such varied options. I am especially happy to see redone versions of old kits, that is something I really like to see that does not happen too frequently. I know why, but I still like seeing it.
Sentineil wrote:Well this was a fun thread. Positive vibes lasted all of 3 posts.
GG Dakka!
BrianDavion wrote:this place really has become a pit of negativity
Well, sorry not everyone has an unreservedly positive take without caveats. OP gave their reasons for why they're optimistic, others have responded with why they're skeptical. I love the new models, but without evidence that they're getting significant rules buffs I don't see why we should think xenos are getting comparable treatment to Marines.
What, are you expecting sycophancy? I love [Product]! I can't wait to purchase [Product]! [Corporation] is the best!
Sentineil wrote:Well this was a fun thread. Positive vibes lasted all of 3 posts.
GG Dakka!
BrianDavion wrote:this place really has become a pit of negativity
Well, sorry not everyone has an unreservedly positive take without caveats. OP gave their reasons for why they're optimistic, others have responded with why they're skeptical. I love the new models, but without evidence that they're getting significant rules buffs I don't see why we should think xenos are getting comparable treatment to Marines.
What, are you expecting sycophancy? I love [Product]! I can't wait to purchase [Product]! [Corporation] is the best!
I dunno cautious optimism? a wait and see additude? something other then... "feth MARINES! I HATE MARINES! LOOK AT WHAT MARINES GET!"
BrianDavion wrote: I dunno cautious optimism? a wait and see additude? something other then... "feth MARINES! I HATE MARINES! LOOK AT WHAT MARINES GET!"
Funny thing, I just went and reread the thread and nobody posted that, just reasoned arguments for why total positivity is currently unwarranted. I'm actually cautiously optimistic, personally.
In fact, nobody's said that the game's awful, or that GW can't fix things, or that it can't possibly get better, or that everything about Necrons sucks. So if people expressing skepticism based on prior events and current information makes this forum a 'pit of negativity', it rather sounds like you're just expecting mindless, unwarranted praise.
Some of them look really good, others are just silly imo. They went too far with the space egyptian theme so I'll stick with stuff like the flayed ones. None of the recent releases make me feel optimistic but it doesn't matter because there's a massive pile of old stuff to take up my time.
Sentineil wrote:Well this was a fun thread. Positive vibes lasted all of 3 posts.
GG Dakka!
BrianDavion wrote:this place really has become a pit of negativity
Well, sorry not everyone has an unreservedly positive take without caveats. OP gave their reasons for why they're optimistic, others have responded with why they're skeptical. I love the new models, but without evidence that they're getting significant rules buffs I don't see why we should think xenos are getting comparable treatment to Marines.
What, are you expecting sycophancy? I love [Product]! I can't wait to purchase [Product]! [Corporation] is the best!
I dunno cautious optimism? a wait and see additude? something other then... "feth MARINES! I HATE MARINES! LOOK AT WHAT MARINES GET!"
Hello Brian, I'm a cautiously optimistic guy who's been patiently watching for releases ever since the start of 7th edition.
I've been positively hyped for the MASSIVE release of ORKTOBER only to be burnt as they release 5 unwanted buggy casts.
I've sat around for Psychic awakening, super excited for Ghazzy and to see where his lore brings Primorks in line, because after all, the Space Marines and other factions had all been getting super strong leaders (primarchs) so Ghazzy would be just as great, right? Wrong. He got his head chopped off by sum daft furry.
All during this, my other factions I play received literal reprints of rules ( Inquisition ), nothing at all ( Necrons, now changing thankfully ) while each PA released something new for Marines, not to mention the constant cycle of new primaris units that each hammer home how bad your basic units are.
Orks once had a unique rule called Dakka Dakka Dakka, we loved it. Hell yeah! Only to see Marines get a better and more functional version of it ( Imperial Fists etc ) while ours was now worse.
Orks once had super unique statlines, nobs with 2 wounds and slightly tankier. Hell yeah! Only to see marines get a better and more functional version of it ( Intercessors / sgts with thunder hammers ).
Orks once had awesome Meganobz! While they weren't really strong, they at least had a unique statline compared to... You guessed it, marines. But now their terminators have 3 wounds, better bs and can deepstrike for probably the same amount of points! Looks like that faction has better versions of what we had again. Yay.
Orks once had volume of attacks, but now a basic primaris now has as many attacks as and Ork Boy and with up to two extra AP to boot! While also getting to reroll every die, +1 to wound and or exploding, auto hitting 6's. Another better version of the Goff trait. Hell yeah.
Buggies? Outclassed by ATV. Bikers? Outclassed by Primaris Bikers. Warboss? Outclassed by Captain; while we also lose the iconic options of Mega-Armored Warboss, Bikerboss, Biker madboys etc.
You see the trend? This is painful, I've waited around 3-4 years to see something change. I've waited around for 3-4 years for a sign that my passion and naive hope wasn't misplaced, but there's been nothing. We get OrKtoBeR, we get "We see you crying Xenos players" and we get told "Be happy [ unrelated, non marine faction ] is getting 1 new model!". The time for naive positivity has passed, let me post sarcastically on forums because that's the only content I have left to offer.
This endless cacophony of [ reason you play x faction ] being shifted to what is essentially, dudes on steroids in suits just hurts man. So next time you see why people complain about marines, understand that we *have* waited patiently and we *have* been optimistic.
I am 99% sure necrons will not be as good as marines. As others have said, the new units have mediocre rules, so far. We need to wait for the codex, but i am not optimistic.
BrianDavion wrote: I dunno cautious optimism? a wait and see additude? something other then... "feth MARINES! I HATE MARINES! LOOK AT WHAT MARINES GET!"
Humans have a sense of fairness. When marines get releases that vastly outstrip other factions in volume and substantially outstrip them in power level, it seems *unfair.*
BrianDavion wrote: I dunno cautious optimism? a wait and see additude? something other then... "feth MARINES! I HATE MARINES! LOOK AT WHAT MARINES GET!"
Humans have a sense of fairness. When marines get releases that vastly outstrip other factions in volume and substantially outstrip them in power level, it seems *unfair.*
Whats unfair is someone took the effort to make a post to discuss the new necrons, possibilities of other xenos releases and within minutes the same people every time wade in bitching about marines. It's off topic, its nothing to do with what the OP set out to accomplish.
To paraphrase "I have hopes for xenos armies getting big releases" should not be followed by "marines get too much and are too powerful".
What is also unfair is that seemingly those same people can't be happy that any army gets anything unless it meets the criteria of being 1. more competitive than space marines & 2. Not being withing 6 months of a marine release.
Virtually every single 40k topic recently gets a slew of gw/marine bashing for no reason and you know whats more boring that marine releases? People whining about them in every single thread. Every single day.
What is also unfair is that seemingly those same people can't be happy that any army gets anything unless it meets the criteria of being 1. more competitive than space marines & 2. Not being withing 6 months of a marine release.
.
What is also unfair is that seemingly those same people can't be happy that any army gets anything unless it meets the criteria of being 1. more competitive than space marines & 2. Not being withing 6 months of a marine release.
.
and 3. "is an army they play"
Very true, seems we need to add obligatory boycott of something they know little about as well.
BrianDavion wrote: I dunno cautious optimism? a wait and see additude? something other then... "feth MARINES! I HATE MARINES! LOOK AT WHAT MARINES GET!"
Humans have a sense of fairness. When marines get releases that vastly outstrip other factions in volume and substantially outstrip them in power level, it seems *unfair.*
Whats unfair is someone took the effort to make a post to discuss the new necrons, possibilities of other xenos releases and within minutes the same people every time wade in bitching about marines. It's off topic, its nothing to do with what the OP set out to accomplish.
To paraphrase "I have hopes for xenos armies getting big releases" should not be followed by "marines get too much and are too powerful".
What is also unfair is that seemingly those same people can't be happy that any army gets anything unless it meets the criteria of being 1. more competitive than space marines & 2. Not being withing 6 months of a marine release.
Virtually every single 40k topic recently gets a slew of gw/marine bashing for no reason and you know whats more boring that marine releases? People whining about them in every single thread. Every single day.
Again, you're getting angry at non-Astartes paypigs for having the temerity to have self-respect. You're not being fair; you're supporting an unfair paradigm and then getting mad when people don't support it.
This is a game in which no faction exists in a vacuum (even if GW thinks Astartes do). Everything a faction has is relative to others. And Necrons, who used to be this scary implacable threat, more than a match for Astartes, have been reduced to yet another canon fodder faction in the face of the relentless drive to make Astartes the biggest wish fulfillment faction for intellectually lazy hobbylets.
BrianDavion wrote: I dunno cautious optimism? a wait and see additude? something other then... "feth MARINES! I HATE MARINES! LOOK AT WHAT MARINES GET!"
Humans have a sense of fairness. When marines get releases that vastly outstrip other factions in volume and substantially outstrip them in power level, it seems *unfair.*
Whats unfair is someone took the effort to make a post to discuss the new necrons, possibilities of other xenos releases and within minutes the same people every time wade in bitching about marines. It's off topic, its nothing to do with what the OP set out to accomplish.
To paraphrase "I have hopes for xenos armies getting big releases" should not be followed by "marines get too much and are too powerful".
What is also unfair is that seemingly those same people can't be happy that any army gets anything unless it meets the criteria of being 1. more competitive than space marines & 2. Not being withing 6 months of a marine release.
Virtually every single 40k topic recently gets a slew of gw/marine bashing for no reason and you know whats more boring that marine releases? People whining about them in every single thread. Every single day.
Again, you're getting angry at non-Astartes paypigs for having the temerity to have self-respect. You're not being fair; you're supporting an unfair paradigm and then getting mad when people don't support it.
This is a game in which no faction exists in a vacuum (even if GW thinks Astartes do). Everything a faction has is relative to others. And Necrons, who used to be this scary implacable threat, more than a match for Astartes, have been reduced to yet another canon fodder faction in the face of the relentless drive to make Astartes the biggest wish fulfillment faction for intellectually lazy hobbylets.
You mistake self respect for arrogance. If you had self respect you'd speak the virtues of the army you play, you'd rebute those dragging them down. You'd set an example to others for them to aspire to.
What part of being a good self respecting <faction> player involves whining about another person's collection/passion, or smearing complaints over threads set out to encourage talking positively about stuff that isn't marines.
Dudeface wrote: You mistake self respect for arrogance. If you had self respect you'd speak the virtues of the army you play, you'd rebute those dragging them down. You'd set an example to others for them to aspire to.
Nah. Sometimes armies are overpowered, and it's not a sin to mention it. Also, sometimes a certain part of an IP can be focused on to the detriment of the whole. The way GW treats Astartes is like how WWE treated John Cena in his prime, and the whole product suffers for it.
Dudeface wrote: What part of being a good self respecting <faction> player involves whining about another person's collection/passion, or smearing complaints over threads set out to encourage talking positively about stuff that isn't marines.
It's because it's obfuscating from the real problem, which is that marines get so many releases that it is insulting to people who play other factions, and they are overpowered, seemingly by design.
Eonfuzz wrote: Self Respect is obeying overlords and consuming. Consume. Consume.
I love ${product.name}! I can't wait to purchase ${product.name}! ${corporation.name} is the best!
"I don't like marines, you like space marines you're a ${internet.insult} if you think differently about ${pointless.whine}."
Run.SelfPatOnBack
Run.AwardSelfInternetPoints
Complain as people do, I don't believe there's been any insults thrown around here (Aside from that one jab at Karol), and implying that there has been is disingenuous at best.
You mistake self respect for arrogance. If you had self respect you'd speak the virtues of the army you play, you'd rebute those dragging them down. You'd set an example to others for them to aspire to.
What part of being a good self respecting <faction> player involves whining about another person's collection/passion, or smearing complaints over threads set out to encourage talking positively about stuff that isn't marines.
I'm glad to hear you can enjoy your hobby, but it sounds like you're taking things personally, maybe it's time to take a step back and breathe in. People being upset at ${company.name} for releasing ${product.name} has nothing to do with you as a consumer.
Eonfuzz wrote: Self Respect is obeying overlords and consuming. Consume. Consume.
I love ${product.name}! I can't wait to purchase ${product.name}! ${corporation.name} is the best!
"I don't like marines, you like space marines you're a ${internet.insult} if you think differently about ${pointless.whine}."
Run.SelfPatOnBack
Run.AwardSelfInternetPoints
Complain as people do, I don't believe there's been any insults thrown around here (Aside from that one jab at Karol), and implying that there has been is disingenuous at best.
You mistake self respect for arrogance. If you had self respect you'd speak the virtues of the army you play, you'd rebute those dragging them down. You'd set an example to others for them to aspire to.
What part of being a good self respecting <faction> player involves whining about another person's collection/passion, or smearing complaints over threads set out to encourage talking positively about stuff that isn't marines.
I'm glad to hear you can enjoy your hobby, but it sounds like you're taking things personally, maybe it's time to take a step back and breathe in. People being upset at ${company.name} for releasing ${product.name} has nothing to do with you as a consumer.
itg does when you have to hijack literally every post on the fourm.
Eonfuzz wrote: Self Respect is obeying overlords and consuming. Consume. Consume.
I love ${product.name}! I can't wait to purchase ${product.name}! ${corporation.name} is the best!
"I don't like marines, you like space marines you're a ${internet.insult} if you think differently about ${pointless.whine}."
Run.SelfPatOnBack
Run.AwardSelfInternetPoints
Complain as people do, I don't believe there's been any insults thrown around here (Aside from that one jab at Karol), and implying that there has been is disingenuous at best.
You mistake self respect for arrogance. If you had self respect you'd speak the virtues of the army you play, you'd rebute those dragging them down. You'd set an example to others for them to aspire to.
What part of being a good self respecting <faction> player involves whining about another person's collection/passion, or smearing complaints over threads set out to encourage talking positively about stuff that isn't marines.
I'm glad to hear you can enjoy your hobby, but it sounds like you're taking things personally, maybe it's time to take a step back and breathe in. People being upset at ${company.name} for releasing ${product.name} has nothing to do with you as a consumer.
You're quite right, I am upset. I'm fed up people acting like filling the forum with the same persistent complaints over and over is a worthwhile act.
I'm personally on the cusp of just moving away from the site because I'm fed up of everything breaking down into a marine complaint and the complainers acting like they deserve a medal for fighting the good fight. I'm fairly sure other people are as well, because it makes for an unpleasant read.
Eonfuzz wrote: Self Respect is obeying overlords and consuming. Consume. Consume.
I love ${product.name}! I can't wait to purchase ${product.name}! ${corporation.name} is the best!
"I don't like marines, you like space marines you're a ${internet.insult} if you think differently about ${pointless.whine}."
Run.SelfPatOnBack
Run.AwardSelfInternetPoints
Complain as people do, I don't believe there's been any insults thrown around here (Aside from that one jab at Karol), and implying that there has been is disingenuous at best.
You mistake self respect for arrogance. If you had self respect you'd speak the virtues of the army you play, you'd rebute those dragging them down. You'd set an example to others for them to aspire to.
What part of being a good self respecting <faction> player involves whining about another person's collection/passion, or smearing complaints over threads set out to encourage talking positively about stuff that isn't marines.
I'm glad to hear you can enjoy your hobby, but it sounds like you're taking things personally, maybe it's time to take a step back and breathe in. People being upset at ${company.name} for releasing ${product.name} has nothing to do with you as a consumer.
You're quite right, I am upset. I'm fed up people acting like filling the forum with the same persistent complaints over and over is a worthwhile act.
I'm personally on the cusp of just moving away from the site because I'm fed up of everything breaking down into a marine complaint and the complainers acting like they deserve a medal for fighting the good fight. I'm fairly sure other people are as well, because it makes for an unpleasant read.
I'm personally on the cusp of just moving away from the site because I'm fed up of everything breaking down into a marine complaint and the complainers acting like they deserve a medal for fighting the good fight. I'm fairly sure other people are as well, because it makes for an unpleasant read.
I hear you. The problem is though, that the mistakes? GW made that causes these complaints have been repeated ad infinatum the last 2 years.
Essentially we're all on the same side. People just want a fun hobby / lore / game, and here the problem is... everyone has fun differently.
To some, this isn't fun. The game has been stale and one sided for the better part of a year, the lore has been stale and one sided for the better part of half the decade, and the hobby has been stale unless you collected GSC, Marines, Sisters and or Chaos. Us talking about this as a problem isn't to bash you down, to make you hate the hobby or even worse - drive you out. People are complaining to be heard by Games Workshop.
Honestly, the biggest shame is that the company itself hasn't responded to any of this, despite being in "The age of communication". All they have to do is be like "Yeah look, sorry about this but we're trying our best!".
Last time I looked B&C had a little of them.
Their target market is a bit more casual / fluffy though, so if you care about the game more so than the models - it doesn't exactly have the content you are after.
Complain as people do, I don't believe there's been any insults thrown around here (Aside from that one jab at Karol), and implying that there has been is disingenuous at best.
I Believe:
wish fulfillment faction for intellectually lazy hobbylets.
is intended as an insult at anyone who likes marines. If that is not how it was intended it should perhaps be worded clearer.
Frankly I agree that just about every 40k thread these days on Dakka devolves into hate spiel about marines in some fashion or other. I also have been thinking about moving on to other places to talk online about my hobby. Because Dakka is becoming like the Karen at work who is constantly telling you all of her entirely too personal problems.
Essentially we're all on the same side. People just want a fun hobby / lore / game, and here the problem is... everyone has fun differently.
To some, this isn't fun. The game has been stale and one sided for the better part of a year, the lore has been stale and one sided for the better part of half the decade, and the hobby has been stale unless you collected GSC, Marines, Sisters and or Chaos. Us talking about this as a problem isn't to bash you down, to make you hate the hobby or even worse - drive you out. People are complaining to be heard by Games Workshop.
But your not complaining to them. Your complaining to your fellow gamers/hobbiests. And frankly, its old. The fact that the bunch of you come into a thread that is clearly, 'please leave your personal marine hate outside' and spew more vitriol about marines shows that you have no respect for your fellows.
Tiberias wrote: I am not a necron player, but I am really impressed with the design quality and volume of the new necron releases. It's really cool and refreshing to see a xenos faction get so much attention and have their range massively expanded. Also most of the new kits really do look fantastic, at least imo.
Which brings me to the main point of this post. I think this necron release is grounds for optimism that gw is able and willing to give love to xenos factions.
I for one am optimistic, that we are going to see a massive overhaul of craftworlds in the not so distant future, maybe even in 2021, which is extremely overdue.
Undoubtedly you're seeing what will eventually happen to all of the Xenos races. It's "hip" to be "mad" about marines right now, but the Necron scults and last years new chaos sculpts, in conjunction with the Sisters Revamp + The release of the Full GSC line from a year and a half ago shows that things aren't as bad as a lot of people would have you believe.
I'd expect to see Orcs/Eldar at the minimum in the next 15 months.
Complain as people do, I don't believe there's been any insults thrown around here (Aside from that one jab at Karol), and implying that there has been is disingenuous at best.
I Believe:
wish fulfillment faction for intellectually lazy hobbylets.
is intended as an insult at anyone who likes marines. If that is not how it was intended it should perhaps be worded clearer.
Frankly I agree that just about every 40k thread these days on Dakka devolves into hate spiel about marines in some fashion or other. I also have been thinking about moving on to other places to talk online about my hobby. Because Dakka is becoming like the Karen at work who is constantly telling you all of her entirely too personal problems.
Essentially we're all on the same side. People just want a fun hobby / lore / game, and here the problem is... everyone has fun differently.
To some, this isn't fun. The game has been stale and one sided for the better part of a year, the lore has been stale and one sided for the better part of half the decade, and the hobby has been stale unless you collected GSC, Marines, Sisters and or Chaos. Us talking about this as a problem isn't to bash you down, to make you hate the hobby or even worse - drive you out. People are complaining to be heard by Games Workshop.
But your not complaining to them. Your complaining to your fellow gamers/hobbiests. And frankly, its old. The fact that the bunch of you come into a thread that is clearly, 'please leave your personal marine hate outside' and spew more vitriol about marines shows that you have no respect for your fellows.
Tiberias wrote: I am not a necron player, but I am really impressed with the design quality and volume of the new necron releases. It's really cool and refreshing to see a xenos faction get so much attention and have their range massively expanded. Also most of the new kits really do look fantastic, at least imo.
Which brings me to the main point of this post. I think this necron release is grounds for optimism that gw is able and willing to give love to xenos factions.
I for one am optimistic, that we are going to see a massive overhaul of craftworlds in the not so distant future, maybe even in 2021, which is extremely overdue.
Undoubtedly you're seeing what will eventually happen to all of the Xenos races. It's "hip" to be "mad" about marines right now, but the Necron scults and last years new chaos sculpts, in conjunction with the Sisters Revamp + The release of the Full GSC line from a year and a half ago shows that things aren't as bad as a lot of people would have you believe.
I'd expect to see Orcs/Eldar at the minimum in the next 15 months.
There's not much of the ork line left to visit, boyz if they want to price people out the army, kommandos, tankbustas, deff koptaz and some hq's. Everything else isn't that old or is at the very least serviceable.
1 dual kit infantry box for the elites, 1 box of koptaz, 2-3 hqs and they're doing OK.
Complain as people do, I don't believe there's been any insults thrown around here (Aside from that one jab at Karol), and implying that there has been is disingenuous at best.
I Believe:
wish fulfillment faction for intellectually lazy hobbylets.
is intended as an insult at anyone who likes marines. If that is not how it was intended it should perhaps be worded clearer.
Frankly I agree that just about every 40k thread these days on Dakka devolves into hate spiel about marines in some fashion or other. I also have been thinking about moving on to other places to talk online about my hobby. Because Dakka is becoming like the Karen at work who is constantly telling you all of her entirely too personal problems.
Essentially we're all on the same side. People just want a fun hobby / lore / game, and here the problem is... everyone has fun differently.
To some, this isn't fun. The game has been stale and one sided for the better part of a year, the lore has been stale and one sided for the better part of half the decade, and the hobby has been stale unless you collected GSC, Marines, Sisters and or Chaos. Us talking about this as a problem isn't to bash you down, to make you hate the hobby or even worse - drive you out. People are complaining to be heard by Games Workshop.
But your not complaining to them. Your complaining to your fellow gamers/hobbiests. And frankly, its old. The fact that the bunch of you come into a thread that is clearly, 'please leave your personal marine hate outside' and spew more vitriol about marines shows that you have no respect for your fellows.
I'm personally on the cusp of just moving away from the site because I'm fed up of everything breaking down into a marine complaint and the complainers acting like they deserve a medal for fighting the good fight. I'm fairly sure other people are as well, because it makes for an unpleasant read.
I hear you. The problem is though, that the mistakes? GW made that causes these complaints have been repeated ad infinatum the last 2 years. Essentially we're all on the same side. People just want a fun hobby / lore / game, and here the problem is... everyone has fun differently.
To some, this isn't fun. The game has been stale and one sided for the better part of a year, the lore has been stale and one sided for the better part of half the decade, and the hobby has been stale unless you collected GSC, Marines, Sisters and or Chaos. Us talking about this as a problem isn't to bash you down, to make you hate the hobby or even worse - drive you out. People are complaining to be heard by Games Workshop.
Honestly, the biggest shame is that the company itself hasn't responded to any of this, despite being in "The age of communication". All they have to do is be like "Yeah look, sorry about this but we're trying our best!".
Last time I looked B&C had a little of them. Their target market is a bit more casual / fluffy though, so if you care about the game more so than the models - it doesn't exactly have the content you are after.
Do people really expect the new CEO to come in with a magic wand and fix the problems of Old GW in a single year? Or even in 5 years?
Let's see.
Death Watch, 1K Sons, New Chaos Deamons for multiple Gods. Half a dozen new AoS Factions. Primaris Marines. Death Guard, THREE PRIMARCHS. Death Watch, GSC, New Eldar Banshees and Jain Zhar. Entire revamp of the Necron Range. Entire Revamp of the Sisters Range. Adeptus Custodians full army release. Adeptus Titanicus. Aeronautica Imperailis. Massive updates to official terrain kits, huge expansions to the rules and a complete and fundamental shift to the way the game is played. Twice. Orks got some sick new cars and a new character, and there is more on the way for all of these factions and games. Return of Blood Bowl. Return of Necromunda. Kill Team. THEY'RE EVEN BRINGING BACK THE OLD WORLD FOR PEOPLE WHO COMPLAINED.
But yeah, it's just been marines. None of that other stuff exists at all right? It's all fantasy.
As one other poster said, this gak is the reason I rarely post here anymore. It's like people who cry about Trump.
We all hear you. We've been hearing you. There isn't anything that can be done right now. So. Just. Chill.
Patience is a virtue.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Justyn wrote: I'd prefer to see Orks/Guard myself. Then Tau/DE.
My hope is for a mixed boxset of Guard (Catachans, New Sculpts) and Tyranids. I think it's coming.
Ok, since this is starting to become a dumpster fire again, I'll reiterate.
The point of this thread was to at least try to spread some optimism that, when necrons can get such a big release and overhaul, other xenos factions like craftworlds can and probably will get that same treatment.
I honestly do not understand how these threads always devolve into how marines are op, I wasn't even talking about rules.
Also saying that GW has done something good isn't automatically shilling for the company. You can say positive things about a company and be very critical about other aspects at the same time.
I hate the false sense of scarcity with which they advertise their products and I will never forgive GW for AoS and how they handled the end times. But even I have to admit that most of the new AoS sculpts are spectacular for example.
It's almost never just black and white.
I don't play Necrons, and likely never will. But those models, some of them are destined for my shelf. They look awesome. Mostly the creepy looking ones like the big Quadruped.
THEY'RE EVEN BRINGING BACK THE OLD WORLD FOR PEOPLE WHO COMPLAINED.
REMEMBER BRETONNIA!!!!!!!!!! Seriously, wtf are my Bretonnians.
Tiberias wrote: Ok, since this is starting to become a dumpster fire again, I'll reiterate.
The point of this thread was to at least try to spread some optimism that, when necrons can get such a big release and overhaul, other xenos factions like craftworlds can and probably will get that same treatment.
And I'm sorry but I've heard that before many, many times. Instead, I've witnessed swathes of units being removed from my codex, and saw my favourite army in 7th edition (Corsairs) squatted in its entirety.
GW has systematically eliminated all of my good will at this point.
Hence, I will be optimistic only when I see actual evidence.
So I ask again, do you have any evidence of a range of new HQ models for DE?
Or perhaps you have evidence of an 9th edition Corsairs book that contains all the units in said book?
Because if you can provide me with either of those, I will gladly share in your optimism. But if not, why on earth would I have any optimism for a company that has let me down at every opportunity in the past?
Tiberias wrote: Ok, since this is starting to become a dumpster fire again, I'll reiterate.
The point of this thread was to at least try to spread some optimism that, when necrons can get such a big release and overhaul, other xenos factions like craftworlds can and probably will get that same treatment.
And I'm sorry but I've heard that before many, many times. Instead, I've witnessed swathes of units being removed from my codex, and saw my favourite army in 7th edition (Corsairs) squatted in its entirety.
GW has systematically eliminated all of my good will at this point.
Hence, I will be optimistic only when I see actual evidence.
So I ask again, do you have any evidence of a range of new HQ models for DE?
Or perhaps you have evidence of an 9th edition Corsairs book that contains all the units in said book?
Because if you can provide me with either of those, I will gladly share in your optimism. But if not, why on earth would I have any optimism for a company that has let me down at every opportunity in the past?
At the same time why are you in a thread about optimising views on GW and the future of the game?
At some point I think some who have disgruntlement have to consider that perhaps they don't have to share it at every opportunity. This isn't a life-line to GW, its hobby fans sharing their hobby and interests. Sometimes its easier for those with diverging interests to not butt-heads but to separate a bit. Leave some threads to be happy and positive etc... In a thread looking forward to potential improvements and celebrating the Necron release, is it really the right place to bring doom and gloom?
And I'm sorry but I've heard that before many, many times. Instead, I've witnessed swathes of units being removed from my codex, and saw my favourite army in 7th edition (Corsairs) squatted in its entirety.
GW has systematically eliminated all of my good will at this point.
Hence, I will be optimistic only when I see actual evidence.
So I ask again, do you have any evidence of a range of new HQ models for DE?
Or perhaps you have evidence of an 9th edition Corsairs book that contains all the units in said book?
Because if you can provide me with either of those, I will gladly share in your optimism. But if not, why on earth would I have any optimism for a company that has let me down at every opportunity in the past?
And once again. Why are you dumping your gak on us? We didn't cause it. We can't fix it. Take it to one of the very very many threads where it is expected.
Sentineil wrote:Well this was a fun thread. Positive vibes lasted all of 3 posts.
GG Dakka!
BrianDavion wrote:this place really has become a pit of negativity
Well, sorry not everyone has an unreservedly positive take without caveats. OP gave their reasons for why they're optimistic, others have responded with why they're skeptical. I love the new models, but without evidence that they're getting significant rules buffs I don't see why we should think xenos are getting comparable treatment to Marines.
What, are you expecting sycophancy? I love [Product]! I can't wait to purchase [Product]! [Corporation] is the best!
I dunno cautious optimism? a wait and see additude? something other then... "feth MARINES! I HATE MARINES! LOOK AT WHAT MARINES GET!"
We know the stats of Heavy Intercessors and Tacticals, and we know the stats of Immortals and Warriors. There is no "wait and see". I can draw a graph with a steady degradation of the Necron units in relationship to the Marine ones that covers 20 something years.
Sentineil wrote:Well this was a fun thread. Positive vibes lasted all of 3 posts.
GG Dakka!
BrianDavion wrote:this place really has become a pit of negativity
Well, sorry not everyone has an unreservedly positive take without caveats. OP gave their reasons for why they're optimistic, others have responded with why they're skeptical. I love the new models, but without evidence that they're getting significant rules buffs I don't see why we should think xenos are getting comparable treatment to Marines.
What, are you expecting sycophancy? I love [Product]! I can't wait to purchase [Product]! [Corporation] is the best!
I dunno cautious optimism? a wait and see additude? something other then... "feth MARINES! I HATE MARINES! LOOK AT WHAT MARINES GET!"
We know the stats of Heavy Intercessors and Tacticals, and we know the stats of Immortals and Warriors. There is no "wait and see". I can draw a graph with a steady degradation of the Necron units in relationship to the Marine ones that covers 20 something years.
Aye, but as said eariler, Necrons have shifted from an all metal elite style army into an all plastic more swarming army. Not quite at Tyranid levels, but certainly not elite style as their core focus. Which fits with GW having more options and more models for them and putting more models on the table. In the end does it matter that their units are not - one for one - equal to marines (or that specific units aren't matching up). In the end its not about one unit's stats vs another its about how the whole army functions as a whole.
What is also unfair is that seemingly those same people can't be happy that any army gets anything unless it meets the criteria of being 1. more competitive than space marines & 2. Not being withing 6 months of a marine release.
.
and 3. "is an army they play"
Very true, seems we need to add obligatory boycott of something they know little about as well.
Aye, but as said eariler, Necrons have shifted from an all metal elite style army into an all plastic more swarming army. Not quite at Tyranid levels, but certainly not elite style as their core focus. Which fits with GW having more options and more models for them and putting more models on the table. In the end does it matter that their units are not - one for one - equal to marines (or that specific units aren't matching up). In the end its not about one unit's stats vs another its about how the whole army functions as a whole.
1. As pointed out, Marines have far, far more options than Necrons but have a more elite base troop.
2. If it's not about the character of individual soldiers and instead about "how the army functions as a whole", why don't we make marines 10 points each?
Part of faction identity is how common representatives of said faction interact with representatives of other factions. You expect Guard to be individually worse than marines. I used to expect Aspect Warriors to be rough equals with marines. Necrons used to be tougher than marines, they have become less so. There is an aspect to the faction identity that has degraded over time. It's not a thing that needed to happen to make room for other models or anything. It seems to have happened so that Marines can have tell their narrative power fantasies in BL novels.
Tiberias wrote: Ok, since this is starting to become a dumpster fire again, I'll reiterate.
The point of this thread was to at least try to spread some optimism that, when necrons can get such a big release and overhaul, other xenos factions like craftworlds can and probably will get that same treatment.
And I'm sorry but I've heard that before many, many times. Instead, I've witnessed swathes of units being removed from my codex, and saw my favourite army in 7th edition (Corsairs) squatted in its entirety.
GW has systematically eliminated all of my good will at this point.
Hence, I will be optimistic only when I see actual evidence.
So I ask again, do you have any evidence of a range of new HQ models for DE?
Or perhaps you have evidence of an 9th edition Corsairs book that contains all the units in said book?
Because if you can provide me with either of those, I will gladly share in your optimism. But if not, why on earth would I have any optimism for a company that has let me down at every opportunity in the past?
I started a thread recently where I said that at some point endlessly arguing in a forum won't do any good and that the better angle would be to write at GW directly.(the thread got locked immediately, because people started calling each other names after 4 posts or so....)
Voice your concerns honestly and give suggestions as to what you would like to see improve to GW directly.
That is what I did for my custodes. I wrote them an honest mail and told them what I think doesn't work and gave suggestions as to how the situation could be improved and even if nobody at gw ever reads it, at least I did all I could do to try to improve the game I like.
You clearly care about the game, otherwhise you would have left the hobby already after they squatted your favorite army.
Again, I am Not saying you can not or should not voice your concerns in a forum and discuss them, but at some point endlessly complaining and being negative does not help you or anyone.
And please don't come at my with the argument that one person writing GW won't change anything. That in the same vein as saying I won't recycle because other people won't do it and therefore it won't accomplish anything. It always starts with yourself. You can yourself try to improve things and other people might follow your example, some won't, but it is the only thing you actually can do.
Editb also I don't have evidence of DE getting any new models soon, of course not, but again that wasn't the point. But I'd like to see their range expanded and revamped. I'd especially love to see plastic mandrakes
1. As pointed out, Marines have far, far more options than Necrons but have a more elite base troop.
To be fair, I don't think *any* codex has as many options as Marines do these days?! Especially if you group the subfactions together.
Necrons staying as the unknown, mysterious elite and unkillable Xenos raiders they were when they first appeared crossed over with several existing/upcoming factions, so ultimately I think they was a conscious drive to give them personalities (helps sell splat books/novels too, if you're being cynical) that happened, what, 5th editionish? And mechnically when you're looking at hard-to-kill elite 'undead' troops, there is a real overlap with the Thousand Sons and even Death Guard nowadays.
I'm happy Necrons are getting more of an identify both mechanically and lore-wise to be honest, and I personally really like the more 'gothic horror' (with a little body/techno horror) direction they're going here over the pure Space Egyptian vibe they had going on. It meshes well with the gothic tragedy of the faction in the fluff, and gives us some good hooks and motivations for the faction. When it comes to Necron Warriors, for instance, it really stresses that the Necron leadership view them as totally expendable: they come back to life anyway, so we can never really lose (despite their minds and souls continuing to degenerate...).
Agreed on that. I much prefer where the Necrons are now, in terms of their identity, to "Terminators in space".
And I think as mentioned earlier do you want "hyper elite super durable small robot army" or "horde of durable robots" I prefer the latter. Looking forwards to seeing what I can do with my newly started Necrons.
1) biggest thing. REPEATEDLY in the release GW has stated that they're changing things like the marine character upgrades and the necron cryptek equipment not visible on the model to cost points/power.
YES.
YES, GW, YOU'VE FINALLY FIGURED IT OUT. You've figured out that even though you aren't allowed to make things that don't exist on the model, rules don't HAVE to be tied to features on the model and (this was a weird assumption in the first place, guys, but anyway) those rules don't HAVE to be free and 100% interchangeable with each other!
The dream is that they figure this gak out with most things, like relics, maybe even warlord traits, and we can have fun customizable HQs that don't become freaking 150pt models that can oneshot knights. Just please, free interesting stuff from the tyranny of Strats Relics and Traits!
I don't care if every item I upgrade my Archon with is a secret invisible item he's got hidden in his pocketses, it's fine, if I want to model it as a thing I'll model it as a thing and GW's rules designers and I can exchange a wink and a nod and say no more say no more. Oh this? Why it's not an archon with a blaster, it's the special relic item Blastinatorinator Perry the Platypus, it's a special blast pistol that costs 20 points more and changes the profile to Assault 1 18". Wings? No, I just purchased him the profile enhancement "gene-enhanced speed" to grant him 12" movement ignoring terrain!
2) I do think GW seems to realize that, with the gorgeous new necron models and the new upcoming kits, the HQ zone of all armies is looking pretty dull and needs some spicing up.
1. As pointed out, Marines have far, far more options than Necrons but have a more elite base troop.
To be fair, I don't think *any* codex has as many options as Marines do these days?! Especially if you group the subfactions together.
Yeah not even close. Excluding named characters but including all legion-specific units the new marine codex has more unit datasheets than warhammer 30k's marines.
1) biggest thing. REPEATEDLY in the release GW has stated that they're changing things like the marine character upgrades and the necron cryptek equipment not visible on the model to cost points/power.
YES.
YES, GW, YOU'VE FINALLY FIGURED IT OUT. You've figured out that even though you aren't allowed to make things that don't exist on the model, rules don't HAVE to be tied to features on the model and (this was a weird assumption in the first place, guys, but anyway) those rules don't HAVE to be free and 100% interchangeable with each other!
The dream is that they figure this gak out with most things, like relics, maybe even warlord traits, and we can have fun customizable HQs that don't become freaking 150pt models that can oneshot knights. Just please, free interesting stuff from the tyranny of Strats Relics and Traits!
Yeah, spoilers GW: wargamers love fiddling with builds, give them options to do that (especially when something like Crusade can create a mini meta where teching hard is reasonable and might see some of those little-used options becoming useful!). Making every single tweakable wargear 'free' outside of opportunity cost makes balancing all this much harder, and further makes your levers for balance updates later purely nerfing overpowered items back to being level with everything else.
1) biggest thing. REPEATEDLY in the release GW has stated that they're changing things like the marine character upgrades and the necron cryptek equipment not visible on the model to cost points/power.
YES.
YES, GW, YOU'VE FINALLY FIGURED IT OUT. You've figured out that even though you aren't allowed to make things that don't exist on the model, rules don't HAVE to be tied to features on the model and (this was a weird assumption in the first place, guys, but anyway) those rules don't HAVE to be free and 100% interchangeable with each other!
The dream is that they figure this gak out with most things, like relics, maybe even warlord traits, and we can have fun customizable HQs that don't become freaking 150pt models that can oneshot knights. Just please, free interesting stuff from the tyranny of Strats Relics and Traits!
I don't care if every item I upgrade my Archon with is a secret invisible item he's got hidden in his pocketses, it's fine, if I want to model it as a thing I'll model it as a thing and GW's rules designers and I can exchange a wink and a nod and say no more say no more. Oh this? Why it's not an archon with a blaster, it's the special relic item Blastinatorinator Perry the Platypus, it's a special blast pistol that costs 20 points more and changes the profile to Assault 1 18". Wings? No, I just purchased him the profile enhancement "gene-enhanced speed" to grant him 12" movement ignoring terrain!
If they fully implement this it will be great for both customization and balance. Here's hoping that the upgrade to Chapter Master is expensive.
Paying for upgrades on HQs and other units reminds me of an older codex.....
Overall the new Necron stuff is a gigantic improvement over what currently exists, both model and rules-wise. I think I speak for basically every Necron player when I say all we want is a functional Codex that allows for variety in list building and tactics while preserving the character and fluff of the army. Because that's something the current Codex completely fails at.
Now, the new stuff absolutely looks nowhere near as strong as the existing Marine rules or some of the upcoming ones, but there's two caveats to that:
1) We know Marines are getting rules overhauls too and there's no telling how this might rein the power of that army in. Aggressors for instance have been confirmed to be nerfed into irrelevance in the new Codex and the broken character upgrade stratagems are being made into points upgrades which, even if the rules themselves don't change massively, is a big balancing factor in making them less ridiculous.
and
2) Do you really want an army that is as strong or stronger than Marines are currently? Have you not noticed the gigantic backlash towards the army and the people who play it? (the latter being incredibly unfair on those people) I personally actually really enjoy being to get games at my LGS and meeting new people who want to play me or my army again. Have you not noticed that lowkey a lot of Marine players are desperate for their army to be curtailed somewhat because many, sadly, feel bad about playing it and they are struggling to find opponents in many areas? What fething Necron player wants to be in that situation unless you're the ultimate That Guy.
Bosskelot wrote: Overall the new Necron stuff is a gigantic improvement over what currently exists, both model and rules-wise. I think I speak for basically every Necron player when I say all we want is a functional Codex that allows for variety in list building and tactics while preserving the character and fluff of the army. Because that's something the current Codex completely fails at.
Now, the new stuff absolutely looks nowhere near as strong as the existing Marine rules or some of the upcoming ones, but there's two caveats to that:
1) We know Marines are getting rules overhauls too and there's no telling how this might rein the power of that army in. Aggressors for instance have been confirmed to be nerfed into irrelevance in the new Codex and the broken character upgrade stratagems are being made into points upgrades which, even if the rules themselves don't change massively, is a big balancing factor in making them less ridiculous.
.
I mean, aggressors are not "Confirmed" to be nerfed, that nerf is in the assembly datasheets which contain such elements as:
-1 shot heavy bolters
-multi-meltas with heavy flamer statlines
-4 shot heavy stubbers (but only on one unit)
-30" range regular boltguns on space marine veterans
-different statlines for master crafted power swords on different datasheets
-weapons where they forget the "-" in AP, weapons where they list negative damage, ranged weapons with S: User
Point is, those sheets are absolutely known to be full of typos.
I'm actually referring to two different playtesters who have said, straight up, that Aggressors are seeing a gigantic nerf. This is independent of the datasheet leaks.
Bosskelot wrote: I'm actually referring to two different playtesters who have said, straight up, that Aggressors are seeing a gigantic nerf. This is independent of the datasheet leaks.
doesn't matter, if gw can't even write propperly the datasheets for the PR department, cue heavy intercessors, then healthy doubt is advised.
Part of faction identity is how common representatives of said faction interact with representatives of other factions. You expect Guard to be individually worse than marines. I used to expect Aspect Warriors to be rough equals with marines. Necrons used to be tougher than marines, they have become less so. There is an aspect to the faction identity that has degraded over time. It's not a thing that needed to happen to make room for other models or anything. It seems to have happened so that Marines can have tell their narrative power fantasies in BL novels.
I agree completely that the faction identity has taken a major hit (Primaris have actually been the (imo) inadvertant cause of several factions feeling like they don't have a "thing" anymore), I would argue that the Necron faction in particular was not a deliberate degradation, but one that happened from simple neglect. There are a lot of ranges like that at the moment. Dark Eldar come to mind for example. While the studio seems to spend consistent time/enegery on constant marine rules, the other factions only get looked at "when it's their turn", so you have to hope that A. your "turns" aren't too far apart and that "B", they actually do your faction justice when the time comes.
As for this Necrons release? Time will tell. The Indomitus stuff was cool enough that I broke my 2nd/3rd ed 'crons out of mothballs for the first time in ages. I also pre-ordered Szeras on day one (and cursed myself for it all the way through building him ), but I'm not nearly as keen on the new Crypteks, and the rules previewed for most of our stuff is pretty meh. So it will all come down to the codex and how well they rewrote RP. Keeping my fingers crossed!
I’d just like to say that I really enjoy both release and I can’t wait to see what’s next. I’d also like to add that all the constant negativity and complaining is why don’t come to Dakka that much anymore. I’ve not been here very long but Dakka doesn’t feel like a very fun or welcoming place. Just constant complaining from the same people about the same things regardless of what the thread is about.
This may be an seemingly unpopular opinion but if the negativity from certain individuals is directly affecting your enjoyment of the hobby or discussion on this site...there's always the ignore option? Nothing says you have to "suffer" through the opinions of those on the other side of this virtual battle-line.
This release is reason for Necron players to feel better. Everyone else is still left in the lurch and hoping GW gets to them literally a year from now after the meta's going to be dominated by Marines.
And the less said about models the better.
Better vocal bitterness than pretending things are fine and that Primaris aren't being coddled at everyone else's expense.
1. As pointed out, Marines have far, far more options than Necrons but have a more elite base troop.
To be fair, I don't think *any* codex has as many options as Marines do these days?! Especially if you group the subfactions together.
Necrons staying as the unknown, mysterious elite and unkillable Xenos raiders they were when they first appeared crossed over with several existing/upcoming factions
Honest question, which factions?
I can't think of another "mysterious, elite, unkillable Xenos raiders" faction.
unitled wrote: . . . so ultimately I think they was a conscious drive to give them personalities (helps sell splat books/novels too, if you're being cynical) that happened, what, 5th editionish? And mechnically when you're looking at hard-to-kill elite 'undead' troops, there is a real overlap with the Thousand Sons and even Death Guard nowadays.
I'm happy Necrons are getting more of an identify both mechanically and lore-wise to be honest, and I personally really like the more 'gothic horror' (with a little body/techno horror) direction they're going here over the pure Space Egyptian vibe they had going on. It meshes well with the gothic tragedy of the faction in the fluff, and gives us some good hooks and motivations for the faction. When it comes to Necron Warriors, for instance, it really stresses that the Necron leadership view them as totally expendable: they come back to life anyway, so we can never really lose (despite their minds and souls continuing to degenerate...).
I'd argue that one of the places where the 3rd ed codex really shined was the mechanics based around the advanced Necron technology. Teleporting models around, units ignoring terrain, basic weapons that could seriously threaten vehicles, weapons that ignored invulnerable saves, WBB (RP) mechanics and Phase Out made the army fight like no other. Not to mention the Ressurection Orb which was essentially an Aura mechanic that directly encouraged "phalanx" behavior. Or the Monolith with it's various high tech abilities.
Imo there were a number of excellent, strong design choices in that book that made the Crons very unique. Imo they've been watered down ever since.
Tiberias wrote: Ok, since this is starting to become a dumpster fire again, I'll reiterate.
The point of this thread was to at least try to spread some optimism that, when necrons can get such a big release and overhaul, other xenos factions like craftworlds can and probably will get that same treatment.
And I'm sorry but I've heard that before many, many times. Instead, I've witnessed swathes of units being removed from my codex, and saw my favourite army in 7th edition (Corsairs) squatted in its entirety.
GW has systematically eliminated all of my good will at this point.
Hence, I will be optimistic only when I see actual evidence.
So I ask again, do you have any evidence of a range of new HQ models for DE?
Or perhaps you have evidence of an 9th edition Corsairs book that contains all the units in said book?
Because if you can provide me with either of those, I will gladly share in your optimism. But if not, why on earth would I have any optimism for a company that has let me down at every opportunity in the past?
Why are you here? Why is the burden of providing optimism on him?
Altho i dislike the permanent focus on marines, which means ressources are not allocated on other factions, i think the Necron revamp means there will also be an eldar and tyranid revamp, probably for the 10th edition.
Warriors and Immortals staying at 1w :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:
Plastic Flayed ones
"Pariah" being released with no Pariahs :thumbsdown:
New Warriors will suffice. I have mixed feelings about them, but overall
Heavy Intercessors
Waiting for:
News on the fate of Classic Destroyers
News on RP Monolith rules
Custom Dynasty Traits, hopefully there are some that are more in line with older C'tan fluff
I'd also like them to bring back the super-powerful Transcendent C'tan from the "Escalation" book (6th ed-ish?).
BrianDavion wrote: itg does when you have to hijack literally every post on the fourm.
Then shouldn't the prevalence of these posts from a variety of different posters and all linked to a variety of even vaguely related topics tell you this problem is approaching some form of critical mass?
When it comes to the hope that the Marine meta might someday end and we can go back to having a good time letting Marines hit our tabletops, each new Marine release more than negates the optimism that each non-Marine release generates.
Yes, this was posted to be a thread about optimism, but "OP is wrong" is a completely valid response to an OP.
BrianDavion wrote: itg does when you have to hijack literally every post on the fourm.
Then shouldn't the prevalence of these posts from a variety of different posters and all linked to a variety of even vaguely related topics tell you this problem is approaching some form of critical mass?
Not necessarily at all. Indeed I think its more a case of negativity attracting negativity. Often as not many of the most negative posts come from people who have either moved onto other hobbies/games or who are sharing the negativity so much that it feels like a large number of users when its just a few.
To kind of present some thinking on how negative elements, esp online, when repeated over and over can reinforce themselves and twist a persons perceptions. The reverse is, thankfully, also true in that positive reinforcement also works.
BrianDavion wrote: itg does when you have to hijack literally every post on the fourm.
Then shouldn't the prevalence of these posts from a variety of different posters and all linked to a variety of even vaguely related topics tell you this problem is approaching some form of critical mass?
This sums it up for me. I've long understood that Marines are the big sell, and I think that's fine to an extent. Initially the momentum over the past couple years was semi-ignorable, as there were a lot of things happening for 8th. But, as a marine player, I'm fatigued by it, and as a collector (or potential collector) of other factions it passed a certain threshold and now I'm seriously holding off on any purchases. I'm poised to go back and playing 2nd with some of my friends. This is the first time in 20+ years when I'm considering not going out and getting the latest marine book, and marines is my primary army.
Tiberias wrote: I am not a necron player, but I am really impressed with the design quality and volume of the new necron releases. It's really cool and refreshing to see a xenos faction get so much attention and have their range massively expanded. Also most of the new kits really do look fantastic, at least imo.
Which brings me to the main point of this post. I think this necron release is grounds for optimism that gw is able and willing to give love to xenos factions.
I for one am optimistic, that we are going to see a massive overhaul of craftworlds in the not so distant future, maybe even in 2021, which is extremely overdue.
I am a Necron player, and I am very pleased. Even knowing that Necrons were getting an update, I didn't expect them to be getting SUCH an update; the quantity and quality here has been amazing.
Yes, sadly, every new release for us ALSO includes new updates for Space Marines, but... if they update even a couple of other xeno factions the way they updated us in 9th, I'll be ecstatic. It gives me hope.
BrianDavion wrote: itg does when you have to hijack literally every post on the fourm.
Then shouldn't the prevalence of these posts from a variety of different posters and all linked to a variety of even vaguely related topics tell you this problem is approaching some form of critical mass?
Not necessarily at all. Indeed I think its more a case of negativity attracting negativity. Often as not many of the most negative posts come from people who have either moved onto other hobbies/games or who are sharing the negativity so much that it feels like a large number of users when its just a few.
To kind of present some thinking on how negative elements, esp online, when repeated over and over can reinforce themselves and twist a persons perceptions. The reverse is, thankfully, also true in that positive reinforcement also works.
"Ignore the problems and keep funneling money in support of GW's bad decision making, and they won't exist!"
Brilliant. There's a difference between justifiable positivity and outright self-delusion/denial.
Not necessarily at all. Indeed I think its more a case of negativity attracting negativity.
If you go back through my history, you will find that I have been a defender of 40K and GW for a long, long time.
Similar boat here. Most of my post history through 8th was largely positive, and I've spent more than my fair share of time defending GW at times over the years. There's also plenty of cases where people are upset about something subjective and trying to make it objective. In this case though, I think it's actually fair to say Marines have had a years long release cycle in the face of armies like Drukari only LOSING units at every release since 5th ed.
So it's all well and good to be optimistic about the Necron release (and clearly on some level I am because, as I said, I got mine out of mothballs), but I still think it's too early to make the call. We really need to see what they do in the book. So far every marine release has looked rock solid as far as the rules go. Certain of them have (imo) been unfairly labeled OP, but I would argue that all of them have strong rules and utility from what we've seen. On the Necron side it's not as clear cut. The Plasmancer for example, looks confusingly bad, and the Reanimation Stalker - don't even get me started. Almost every one of the new units is a "wait and see" imo, which doesn't mean it's automatically negative, but after the long wait 'crons have had, it's a little disappointing that so much of it appears "meh" ....
BrianDavion wrote: itg does when you have to hijack literally every post on the fourm.
Then shouldn't the prevalence of these posts from a variety of different posters and all linked to a variety of even vaguely related topics tell you this problem is approaching some form of critical mass?
Not necessarily at all. Indeed I think its more a case of negativity attracting negativity. Often as not many of the most negative posts come from people who have either moved onto other hobbies/games or who are sharing the negativity so much that it feels like a large number of users when its just a few.
To kind of present some thinking on how negative elements, esp online, when repeated over and over can reinforce themselves and twist a persons perceptions. The reverse is, thankfully, also true in that positive reinforcement also works.
"Ignore the problems and keep funneling money in support of GW's bad decision making, and they won't exist!"
Brilliant. There's a difference between justifiable positivity and outright self-delusion/denial.
"Bad decision making"...
Yes, because 1600% stock price increase in 5 years, out performing Amazon, and being the FTSE best performer... Are all symptoms of bad decisions...?
They're clearly in need of your marketing genius and business acumen. For the sake of the hobby industry, and mankind as a whole you need to get your CV in to them now so they can correct the course before it's too late!
BrianDavion wrote: itg does when you have to hijack literally every post on the fourm.
Then shouldn't the prevalence of these posts from a variety of different posters and all linked to a variety of even vaguely related topics tell you this problem is approaching some form of critical mass?
Not necessarily at all. Indeed I think its more a case of negativity attracting negativity. Often as not many of the most negative posts come from people who have either moved onto other hobbies/games or who are sharing the negativity so much that it feels like a large number of users when its just a few.
To kind of present some thinking on how negative elements, esp online, when repeated over and over can reinforce themselves and twist a persons perceptions. The reverse is, thankfully, also true in that positive reinforcement also works.
"Ignore the problems and keep funneling money in support of GW's bad decision making, and they won't exist!"
Brilliant. There's a difference between justifiable positivity and outright self-delusion/denial.
"Bad decision making"...
Yes, because 1600% stock price increase in 5 years, out performing Amazon, and being the FTSE best performer... Are all symptoms of bad decisions...?
They're clearly in need of your marketing genius and business acumen. For the sake of the hobby industry, and mankind as a whole you need to get your CV in to them now so they can correct the course before it's too late!
There's a particularly dark observation that could be made regarding the over-valuation of stock prices in measurement of success over . . . other things. Product longevity. . . community health. . . world affairs. . .
BrianDavion wrote: itg does when you have to hijack literally every post on the fourm.
Then shouldn't the prevalence of these posts from a variety of different posters and all linked to a variety of even vaguely related topics tell you this problem is approaching some form of critical mass?
Not necessarily at all. Indeed I think its more a case of negativity attracting negativity. Often as not many of the most negative posts come from people who have either moved onto other hobbies/games or who are sharing the negativity so much that it feels like a large number of users when its just a few.
To kind of present some thinking on how negative elements, esp online, when repeated over and over can reinforce themselves and twist a persons perceptions. The reverse is, thankfully, also true in that positive reinforcement also works.
"Ignore the problems and keep funneling money in support of GW's bad decision making, and they won't exist!"
Brilliant. There's a difference between justifiable positivity and outright self-delusion/denial.
"Bad decision making"...
Yes, because 1600% stock price increase in 5 years, out performing Amazon, and being the FTSE best performer... Are all symptoms of bad decisions...?
They're clearly in need of your marketing genius and business acumen. For the sake of the hobby industry, and mankind as a whole you need to get your CV in to them now so they can correct the course before it's too late!
There's a particularly dark observation that could be made regarding the over-valuation of stock prices in measurement of success over . . . other things. Product longevity. . . community health. . . world affairs. . .
I've been in the hobby close to 25 years, and I don't think the hobby has ever been in a better state. Gorgeous models, frequent releases, access has never been easier, Henry Cavill painting, battle reports have improved in quality hugely on YouTube, community driven painting tutorials and modelling guides have never been better.
In the last five years I've seen Warhammer evolve from being seen as a nerdy basement dweller geek hobby, to a slightly less nerdy basement dwelling geek hobby. Unprecedented!
BrianDavion wrote: itg does when you have to hijack literally every post on the fourm.
Then shouldn't the prevalence of these posts from a variety of different posters and all linked to a variety of even vaguely related topics tell you this problem is approaching some form of critical mass?
Not necessarily at all. Indeed I think its more a case of negativity attracting negativity. Often as not many of the most negative posts come from people who have either moved onto other hobbies/games or who are sharing the negativity so much that it feels like a large number of users when its just a few.
To kind of present some thinking on how negative elements, esp online, when repeated over and over can reinforce themselves and twist a persons perceptions. The reverse is, thankfully, also true in that positive reinforcement also works.
"Ignore the problems and keep funneling money in support of GW's bad decision making, and they won't exist!"
Brilliant. There's a difference between justifiable positivity and outright self-delusion/denial.
"Bad decision making"...
Yes, because 1600% stock price increase in 5 years, out performing Amazon, and being the FTSE best performer... Are all symptoms of bad decisions...?
They're clearly in need of your marketing genius and business acumen. For the sake of the hobby industry, and mankind as a whole you need to get your CV in to them now so they can correct the course before it's too late!
There's a particularly dark observation that could be made regarding the over-valuation of stock prices in measurement of success over . . . other things. Product longevity. . . community health. . . world affairs. . .
I've been in the hobby close to 25 years. . .
Same. But while I admit the hobby itself is doing gangbusters, I can't think of a time when the faction balance was in a worse state from a trooper-to-trooper perspective. You must have played 2nd Ed. Do you remember when Aspect Warriors didn't crumple like paper against Marines? I think it's awful, and Marines are my primary army.
BrianDavion wrote: itg does when you have to hijack literally every post on the fourm.
Then shouldn't the prevalence of these posts from a variety of different posters and all linked to a variety of even vaguely related topics tell you this problem is approaching some form of critical mass?
Not necessarily at all. Indeed I think its more a case of negativity attracting negativity. Often as not many of the most negative posts come from people who have either moved onto other hobbies/games or who are sharing the negativity so much that it feels like a large number of users when its just a few.
To kind of present some thinking on how negative elements, esp online, when repeated over and over can reinforce themselves and twist a persons perceptions. The reverse is, thankfully, also true in that positive reinforcement also works.
"Ignore the problems and keep funneling money in support of GW's bad decision making, and they won't exist!"
Brilliant. There's a difference between justifiable positivity and outright self-delusion/denial.
"Bad decision making"...
Yes, because 1600% stock price increase in 5 years, out performing Amazon, and being the FTSE best performer... Are all symptoms of bad decisions...?
They're clearly in need of your marketing genius and business acumen. For the sake of the hobby industry, and mankind as a whole you need to get your CV in to them now so they can correct the course before it's too late!
There's a particularly dark observation that could be made regarding the over-valuation of stock prices in measurement of success over . . . other things. Product longevity. . . community health. . . world affairs. . .
I've been in the hobby close to 25 years. . .
Same. But while I admit the hobby itself is doing gangbusters, I can't think of a time when the faction balance was in a worse state from a trooper-to-trooper perspective. You must have played 2nd Ed. Do you remember when Aspect Warriors didn't crumple like paper against Marines? I think it's awful, and Marines are my primary army.
Prior to Marine 2.0 things were pretty ok imo. There were some bumps along the way but things were consistently getting better.
Certainly wouldn't call it the worst it has been in X years.
Insectum7 wrote: Same. But while I admit the hobby itself is doing gangbusters, I can't think of a time when the faction balance was in a worse state from a trooper-to-trooper perspective. You must have played 2nd Ed. Do you remember when Aspect Warriors didn't crumple like paper against Marines? I think it's awful, and Marines are my primary army.
Yeah, I remember that. Oh dear crap do I remember that. My third game ever was way back in 3rd Edition, as Space Marines against the Eldar, and they utterly took me apart using rules they'd seemingly pulled out of their asses. Dark Reapers get that fire volume with that AP rating?! Howling Banshees ignore my armor and always strike first even if I was in cover?! T8 wraithlords literally can't be damaged by S4?! Wait, what to you mean you get to roll 2 and take the lower damage result with a Holofield, that means there's only a 1/9 chance of a damaging hit (Which you needed an S6 weapon to even have a chance of doing, mind) ever destroying one!
And most tellingly: You get to reroll *all* those dice because of your HQ?!
I still have this mild lingering irritation with them for that. They made my newbie self crap bricks.
Now, that confrontation would have gone more than a little differently, to the extent that it's kind of gut-wrenching.
There's a maxim that does the rounds at work, that... well... it sure as hell sounds like corporate buzz-speak, and to a degree, it is. But it works because people stick to the notion.
And that is - it doesn't matter how well you think you're doing. You can ALWAYS improve.
I would hope GW is aware of this and uses its astounding current position to better the hobby, and not just resting on its laurels - and fixing this Marine overload should be a part of that.
Previous experiences have shown that they're not one to just let the wheels spin by themselves, but I'm still concerned.
Ordana wrote: Prior to Marine 2.0 things were pretty ok imo. There were some bumps along the way but things were consistently getting better.
Certainly wouldn't call it the worst it has been in X years.
I agree that prior to 2.0, things were pretty good. 2.0 and the push to 9th has been rough though.
To clarify, I think the game itself is far better than 7th, for example. But the balance between faction core units is way, way off imo, and there are issues with the design space that are really irritating (lots of Imperial hover-tanks, for example). That's where my notion of "the worst" comes from.
Ordana wrote: Prior to Marine 2.0 things were pretty ok imo. There were some bumps along the way but things were consistently getting better. Certainly wouldn't call it the worst it has been in X years.
I agree that prior to 2.0, things were pretty good. 2.0 and the push to 9th has been rough though.
To clarify, I think the game itself is far better than 7th, for example. But the balance between faction core units is way, way off imo, and there are issues with the design space that are really irritating (lots of Imperial hover-tanks, for example). That's where my notion of "the worst" comes from.
This has been my sentiment and source of great irritation and very vexing. Pre 2.0 was fairly balanced. Certainly some improvements/pt tweaks should have been made but with castellan and ynnari nerf, I would say that Marines needed to get their army traits on vehicles plus maybe bolter discipline and would have been very competitive with everyone else. Thus there being no army that was irredeemably bad where pt tweaks and an faq or two couldn't fix. Alas, it was not meant to be. Baby. Bath water. etc. etc.
Biggest problem would have still been soup. So not sure if that could have been done without 9th..
I wish you would actually moderate threads like this and keep them on topic instead of letting them devolve.
More on topic: I’m so optimistic that I am now a Necron player and happily painting up an army. Excited to see the updated codex and all the possibilities for the new units and resurrection protocol!
Insectum7 wrote: Same. But while I admit the hobby itself is doing gangbusters, I can't think of a time when the faction balance was in a worse state from a trooper-to-trooper perspective. You must have played 2nd Ed. Do you remember when Aspect Warriors didn't crumple like paper against Marines? I think it's awful, and Marines are my primary army.
Yeah, I remember that. Oh dear crap do I remember that. My third game ever was way back in 3rd Edition, as Space Marines against the Eldar, and they utterly took me apart using rules they'd seemingly pulled out of their asses. Dark Reapers get that fire volume with that AP rating?! Howling Banshees ignore my armor and always strike first even if I was in cover?! T8 wraithlords literally can't be damaged by S4?! Wait, what to you mean you get to roll 2 and take the lower damage result with a Holofield, that means there's only a 1/9 chance of a damaging hit (Which you needed an S6 weapon to even have a chance of doing, mind) ever destroying one!
And most tellingly: You get to reroll *all* those dice because of your HQ?!
I still have this mild lingering irritation with them for that. They made my newbie self crap bricks.
Now, that confrontation would have gone more than a little differently, to the extent that it's kind of gut-wrenching.
And dont forget Baharroth Cry of the Wind charging a space marine squad all by himself and getting 21 hits and 15 wounds that ignore armor! And Rangers pinning squads down with special rules so they cant move or shoot!
Yes, because 1600% stock price increase in 5 years, out performing Amazon, and being the FTSE best performer... Are all symptoms of bad decisions...?
They're clearly in need of your marketing genius and business acumen. For the sake of the hobby industry, and mankind as a whole you need to get your CV in to them now so they can correct the course before it's too late!
Have you never seen a company temporarily increase its stock value at the cost of long-term growth?
Or seen a bubble?
Or heard of Enron?
I am always surprised when I see this kind of 'their stock is going up, so you have no grounds to criticize anything they do' sort of logic.
Quasistellar wrote: I wish you would actually moderate threads like this and keep them on topic instead of letting them devolve.
A post isn't off topic just because you disagree with the opinion it contains. The job of moderators is to keep the forum functioning, not to act as thought police.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see people being more positive about the hobby... but deleting dissenting opinions is not the way to get to that.
Quasistellar wrote: I wish you would actually moderate threads like this and keep them on topic instead of letting them devolve.
More on topic: I’m so optimistic that I am now a Necron player and happily painting up an army. Excited to see the updated codex and all the possibilities for the new units and resurrection protocol!
Negativity is still on topic in a thread about optimism. Bringing up how it is hard to be excited for Necrons new releases when they are compared to SM releases is on topic. You just want to delete post you don't personally like.
I am excited as a Necron player because of all of the new models and the fact that my beloved Monolith is getting a face lift and hopefully some new rules to go with it.
As a SM player I am happy that with the release of so many melee based Primaris I can finally play my Black Templars as Primaris.
As a player of 12 different armies I am not that happy with the state of the game and the non-stop deluge of SM releases for the better part of a year. It is hard for me to be excited about my new Necron toys because everything they have shown so far is trivial in the face of what SM got/are getting.
I am tired of the "Wait and see" excuse because the goal post never stops moving. Wait until the new codexs come out, wait until Chapter Approved comes out, wait until the new <End of edition book set> comes out. It never ends and my 20+ years of GW experience has taught me that waiting is a fools game but at the same time it is all I can do because even when I don't buy first party models or give GW money it doesn't make a difference.
Have you never seen a company temporarily increase its stock value at the cost of long-term growth?
Or seen a bubble?
Or heard of Enron?
I am always surprised when I see this kind of 'their stock is going up, so you have no grounds to criticize anything they do' sort of logic.
And if it were just their stock price going up, then that might be a valid concern. But it's not. You don't have to look too far online to see that overall, GW is in a pretty good place right now. Whether or not you are happy with the state of their rules, the difference in the level of enthusiasm right now for the product they are releasing, compared to where things were at in the midst of the Kirby era, is pretty clear.
By and large, people like what GW is doing, and that is being reflected in their stock price.
Well apparently White Dwarf just leaked new rules on Reanimation protocols. Apparently Necrons get to roll to come back after every time a unit shoots at them, instead of at the end of the turn like they do now. So apparently we all need to sell our Marine models on ebay and start building and collecting Necrons. And no I am not making this up, it is true. See Chapter Master Valrak's Youtube video. *drops the mic*
Alwrath wrote: Well apparently White Dwarf just leaked new rules on Reanimation protocols. Apparently Necrons get to roll to come back after every time a unit shoots at them, instead of at the end of the turn like they do now. So apparently we all need to sell our Marine models on ebay and start building and collecting Necrons. And no I am not making this up, it is true. See Chapter Master Valrak's Youtube video. *drops the mic*
That still doesn't make them as good as SM frankly though it does go a LONG way towards making Necrons viable against them. All you need to do is focus fire enough to kill off the squad which in this edition is not difficult. Consider that 1/3 of your casualties is going to be coming back every time you are shot at it RP is still on a 5+. Essentially if you are targeting a 20 man strong blob of Necron warriors you just need to be able to hit them with enough to kill 30ish warriors accounting for multiple squads firing at them.
On the flip side if you have 1 warriors left after a round of shooting without some changes to the rule you can end up bringing back the other 19 if you roll well enough.
Alwrath wrote: Well apparently White Dwarf just leaked new rules on Reanimation protocols. Apparently Necrons get to roll to come back after every time a unit shoots at them, instead of at the end of the turn like they do now. So apparently we all need to sell our Marine models on ebay and start building and collecting Necrons. And no I am not making this up, it is true. See Chapter Master Valrak's Youtube video. *drops the mic*
That still doesn't make them as good as SM frankly though it does go a LONG way towards making Necrons viable against them. All you need to do is focus fire enough to kill off the squad which in this edition is not difficult. Consider that 1/3 of your casualties is going to be coming back every time you are shot at it RP is still on a 5+. Essentially if you are targeting a 20 man strong blob of Necron warriors you just need to be able to hit them with enough to kill 30ish warriors accounting for multiple squads firing at them.
On the flip side if you have 1 warriors left after a round of shooting without some changes to the rule you can end up bringing back the other 19 if you roll well enough.
Leave a couple out of LOS. I'm picturing a ruin where 10-15 are in the Ruin, and the other bunch are behind it. The opponent needs a unit that can kill the last visible models, plus all the models out of LOS to wipe the unit.
Alwrath wrote: And dont forget Baharroth Cry of the Wind charging a space marine squad all by himself and getting 21 hits and 15 wounds that ignore armor! And Rangers pinning squads down with special rules so they cant move or shoot!
Gaaaagh, I remembered Baharroth; I forgot about the rangers and their cover save!
The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)
This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.
Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Argive wrote: The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)
This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.
Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck
Argive wrote: The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)
This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.
Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck
I think you are grossly over estimating how powerful that will be. Let us walk though it with limited information and making some assumptions.
Let us assume that RP works the way that we assume it does and that it is still on a 5+.
Let us use a simple S4 -1AP weapon that is so standard on marines in 9th.
10 Marines get 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5 dead warriors. Let's say that 2 get back up so you are left with 3 dead. Another squad of marines shoots, kills the same amount but then 4 get back up leaving you with just 4 dead warriors. That is insanely durable right?
Those same two squads of marines shooting at Plague Marines is 28 hits, 9 wounds, after saves you have roughly 3 dead Plague Marines. This is before Plague marines go to the two wounds that we know they are getting when their codex gets updated.
So really, Warriors are roughly as tough as Plague Marines if we assume all of these things to be true. The only difference is that RP activates each turn every time they are shot. Focus fire is going to be incredibly important against Necrons because you NEED to make sure that you remove that unit from the table. So yeah, a 20 man Warrior group is going to be tough, but isn't that exactly what they are supposed to be? Also, none of this math takes into account the doctrines or numerous rerolls that marines get in spades.
Consider that the strongest that the new RP can be, if we assume this is the correct way to play it, is bringing back on average 6 warriors if you have a squad down to 1 warrior. More likely you are going to see it come into play on 10 man squads where the average if you are down to 1 man is going to be 3 bodies coming back.
Argive wrote: The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)
This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.
Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck
I think you are grossly over estimating how powerful that will be. Let us walk though it with limited information and making some assumptions.
Let us assume that RP works the way that we assume it does and that it is still on a 5+.
Let us use a simple S4 -1AP weapon that is so standard on marines in 9th.
10 Marines get 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5 dead warriors. Let's say that 2 get back up so you are left with 3 dead. Another squad of marines shoots, kills the same amount but then 4 get back up leaving you with just 4 dead warriors. That is insanely durable right?
Those same two squads of marines shooting at Plague Marines is 28 hits, 9 wounds, after saves you have roughly 3 dead Plague Marines. This is before Plague marines go to the two wounds that we know they are getting when their codex gets updated.
So really, Warriors are roughly as tough as Plague Marines if we assume all of these things to be true. The only difference is that RP activates each turn every time they are shot. Focus fire is going to be incredibly important against Necrons because you NEED to make sure that you remove that unit from the table. So yeah, a 20 man Warrior group is going to be tough, but isn't that exactly what they are supposed to be? Also, none of this math takes into account the doctrines or numerous rerolls that marines get in spades.
Consider that the strongest that the new RP can be, if we assume this is the correct way to play it, is bringing back on average 6 warriors if you have a squad down to 1 warrior. More likely you are going to see it come into play on 10 man squads where the average if you are down to 1 man is going to be 3 bodies coming back.
But now consider a heavy bolter shooting each and you suddenly find PMs taking more damage in a world where D2/ D3 will be very popular.
Argive wrote: The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)
This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.
Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck
I think you are grossly over estimating how powerful that will be. Let us walk though it with limited information and making some assumptions.
Let us assume that RP works the way that we assume it does and that it is still on a 5+.
Let us use a simple S4 -1AP weapon that is so standard on marines in 9th.
10 Marines get 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5 dead warriors. Let's say that 2 get back up so you are left with 3 dead. Another squad of marines shoots, kills the same amount but then 4 get back up leaving you with just 4 dead warriors. That is insanely durable right?
Those same two squads of marines shooting at Plague Marines is 28 hits, 9 wounds, after saves you have roughly 3 dead Plague Marines. This is before Plague marines go to the two wounds that we know they are getting when their codex gets updated.
So really, Warriors are roughly as tough as Plague Marines if we assume all of these things to be true. The only difference is that RP activates each turn every time they are shot. Focus fire is going to be incredibly important against Necrons because you NEED to make sure that you remove that unit from the table. So yeah, a 20 man Warrior group is going to be tough, but isn't that exactly what they are supposed to be? Also, none of this math takes into account the doctrines or numerous rerolls that marines get in spades.
Consider that the strongest that the new RP can be, if we assume this is the correct way to play it, is bringing back on average 6 warriors if you have a squad down to 1 warrior. More likely you are going to see it come into play on 10 man squads where the average if you are down to 1 man is going to be 3 bodies coming back.
Well the Crypthek brings RP to 4+, the Reanimator to 3+(I think) and Ghost ark makes it rerollable.
Well the Crypthek brings RP to 4+, the Reanimator to 3+(I think) and Ghost ark makes it rerollable.
Maybe. I do wonder if its RP only for models on the table at the start of the turn, so, no RP on already deal models when your stubborn fails to connect. In that context 3+ makes sense.
Argive wrote: The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)
This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.
Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck
I think you are grossly over estimating how powerful that will be. Let us walk though it with limited information and making some assumptions.
Let us assume that RP works the way that we assume it does and that it is still on a 5+.
Let us use a simple S4 -1AP weapon that is so standard on marines in 9th.
10 Marines get 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5 dead warriors. Let's say that 2 get back up so you are left with 3 dead. Another squad of marines shoots, kills the same amount but then 4 get back up leaving you with just 4 dead warriors. That is insanely durable right?
Those same two squads of marines shooting at Plague Marines is 28 hits, 9 wounds, after saves you have roughly 3 dead Plague Marines. This is before Plague marines go to the two wounds that we know they are getting when their codex gets updated.
So really, Warriors are roughly as tough as Plague Marines if we assume all of these things to be true. The only difference is that RP activates each turn every time they are shot. Focus fire is going to be incredibly important against Necrons because you NEED to make sure that you remove that unit from the table. So yeah, a 20 man Warrior group is going to be tough, but isn't that exactly what they are supposed to be? Also, none of this math takes into account the doctrines or numerous rerolls that marines get in spades.
Consider that the strongest that the new RP can be, if we assume this is the correct way to play it, is bringing back on average 6 warriors if you have a squad down to 1 warrior. More likely you are going to see it come into play on 10 man squads where the average if you are down to 1 man is going to be 3 bodies coming back.
10 marines cost more than 10 warriors, plague marines are double a warrior currently aren't they? If anything you just confirmed they're annoyingly durable now.
A: Legions of metal skeletons that Space Marines can kick their way through.
or
B: Trillions of hyper-advanced robots where even the lowest form of them is more than a match for humanity's best troops.
B is scarier, and it's also extremely stupid and nonsensical.
Necron warriors can't be both a gigantic legion that can swarm you in bodies while also having each one be individually more formidable than a Space Marine. It's stupid, and making the warriors chaffier in the fifth edition codex was one of the few things I wholly liked about it.
Immortals should be physically hardier than Marines though, sure. At least T5, 3+, 2W.
What does optimism mean here?
Optimism is more a personal view.
In view of the release of Necrons, one can see that the new models are great and nobody will have doubts about it.
From a gaming point of view, one can be optimistic or not.
If you just play casual games, go ahead.
But from a competitive pt of view, I wouldn't take Necrons to a tourney this edition (which I did very often in the 6th and 7th ed.).
This can be said from the rules rumored so far.
So here I'm taking a pessimistic pt of view.
Argive wrote: The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)
This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.
Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck
I think you are grossly over estimating how powerful that will be. Let us walk though it with limited information and making some assumptions.
Let us assume that RP works the way that we assume it does and that it is still on a 5+.
Let us use a simple S4 -1AP weapon that is so standard on marines in 9th.
10 Marines get 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5 dead warriors. Let's say that 2 get back up so you are left with 3 dead. Another squad of marines shoots, kills the same amount but then 4 get back up leaving you with just 4 dead warriors. That is insanely durable right?
Those same two squads of marines shooting at Plague Marines is 28 hits, 9 wounds, after saves you have roughly 3 dead Plague Marines. This is before Plague marines go to the two wounds that we know they are getting when their codex gets updated.
So really, Warriors are roughly as tough as Plague Marines if we assume all of these things to be true. The only difference is that RP activates each turn every time they are shot. Focus fire is going to be incredibly important against Necrons because you NEED to make sure that you remove that unit from the table. So yeah, a 20 man Warrior group is going to be tough, but isn't that exactly what they are supposed to be? Also, none of this math takes into account the doctrines or numerous rerolls that marines get in spades.
Consider that the strongest that the new RP can be, if we assume this is the correct way to play it, is bringing back on average 6 warriors if you have a squad down to 1 warrior. More likely you are going to see it come into play on 10 man squads where the average if you are down to 1 man is going to be 3 bodies coming back.
Well the Crypthek brings RP to 4+, the Reanimator to 3+(I think) and Ghost ark makes it rerollable.
even without a ghost Ark warriors are re-rolling 1s. so yeah a 20 man strong squad of warriors with the right support could be VERY hard to push off an objective. bring a re-animator along (ideally hiding that re-animator out of LOS) and you've got a pretty damn durable force. it's not going to be unkillable, but it'll certainly soak up plenty of firepower.
Argive wrote: The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)
This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.
Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck
I think you are grossly over estimating how powerful that will be. Let us walk though it with limited information and making some assumptions.
Let us assume that RP works the way that we assume it does and that it is still on a 5+.
Let us use a simple S4 -1AP weapon that is so standard on marines in 9th.
10 Marines get 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5 dead warriors. Let's say that 2 get back up so you are left with 3 dead. Another squad of marines shoots, kills the same amount but then 4 get back up leaving you with just 4 dead warriors. That is insanely durable right?
Those same two squads of marines shooting at Plague Marines is 28 hits, 9 wounds, after saves you have roughly 3 dead Plague Marines. This is before Plague marines go to the two wounds that we know they are getting when their codex gets updated.
So really, Warriors are roughly as tough as Plague Marines if we assume all of these things to be true. The only difference is that RP activates each turn every time they are shot. Focus fire is going to be incredibly important against Necrons because you NEED to make sure that you remove that unit from the table. So yeah, a 20 man Warrior group is going to be tough, but isn't that exactly what they are supposed to be? Also, none of this math takes into account the doctrines or numerous rerolls that marines get in spades.
Consider that the strongest that the new RP can be, if we assume this is the correct way to play it, is bringing back on average 6 warriors if you have a squad down to 1 warrior. More likely you are going to see it come into play on 10 man squads where the average if you are down to 1 man is going to be 3 bodies coming back.
But now consider a heavy bolter shooting each and you suddenly find PMs taking more damage in a world where D2/ D3 will be very popular.
Right. This along with Quantum Shielding (assuming it doesn't change) is going to really mess with any army set up to deal with 2W space marines and their vehicles. Those armies will have to change up their tactics big time when they face Necrons. I like it.
I am quite hopeful that Crons have been tweaked back into being a more durable, deliberate attrition army.
Not quite the undentable powerhouse of 6th edition Decurion era, but an army where we can absorb a turn or 2 of alpha strikes while picking off heavy threats, and your opponent really starts feeling outnumbered around turn 3.
Ordana wrote: Or RP is simply another form of FnP and you don't roll to get back up for all casualties all the time.
Which to me seems much much more logical.
I strongly suspect this will be the case, yeah, with certain abilities (Res Orb, Ghost Arks etc.) allowing one off rolls for the whole unit.
Even if it's a 6+ RP roll, though, it's better than a 5+++ on anything greater than 1 damage for 1 wound troops, which makes Immortals at T5 tougher than PM are currently against 2+ damage weapons (PMs going to 2 wounds changes that obviously!). If it's a 5+ roll, if makes them straight up harder to kill than PM were. In an edition where multidamage to nuke marines is theoretically going to be more common, I'll take a flat 'no death' roll over a FNP.
And sure, we don't get a DR to reduce damage on multiwound models, but hopefully that's a niche that QS still fills (I can see QS staying broadly the same with an auto-fail on a 6 maybe?).
Void__Dragon wrote: B is scarier, and it's also extremely stupid and nonsensical.
Necron warriors can't be both a gigantic legion that can swarm you in bodies while also having each one be individually more formidable than a Space Marine.
But it worked back in 3rd/4th, where Necron Warriors were individually better than Marines, but the army as a whole lacked models in between infantry and heavy vehicles, and the Phase Out rule encouraged beefing up your numbers.
Without transports, light tanks, Dreadnoughts, or even large infantry like Ogryns or heavy infantry like Terminators to suck up points, your average Necron list was a Monolith, some Destroyers, and a sea of infantry. I remember it was pretty common for a Necron army to have 60+ models on the table, and back in 3rd that was a considerable number of dudes.
Reducing the capability of the individual Necron Warrior while also adding a bunch of vehicles and heavy infantry really changed the flavor of the army. Not saying it was necessarily the wrong move as the original design was constraining, but the army concept of a legion of Terminators was unique and it worked.
Yeah didn't Necrons just "Vanish" at a random point during earlier versions. So whilst you might have won if you'd lasted 6 turns, you wouldn't because you'd just phase out.
Insectum7 wrote: Best Necron Troop, T5 1W. - Best SM Troop, T5 3W
It's great Necrons are getting attention and new models and all, but gosh is it rough seeing a faction once known for it's incredibly tough troops just dwindle into a horde in comparison to what Marines can field.
Interesting comparison. We don't know the cost of the heavy intercessor yet do we? In any case. It really seems you are choosing between damage (immortals) or durability (heavy intercessors) here.
Immortal gauss is 5 ap-2 range 30 rapid fire 1
HI 5 ap-1 range 36 rapid fire 1
Same toughness/same attacks/same save. Crons have Reanimate (buffed now - it's basically FNP 5+) I can wager the HI is around 30-35 points...so about 2 for 1 on the immortals.
From White Dwarf " The way reanimation protocols work has been changed in the new codex. Now Necrons can reanimate after each attack, making them very tough to kill off unless you can destroy the entire unit in one go. "
Necrons are gonna be beast in 9th, Immortals are gonna be harder to kill than most units in the game, and Deathmarks are also T5 I believe so they will be hard to shift as well. 20 man Warrior blobs will be a huge pain to get rid of. A Space Marine player may end up shooting at a unit with 3 different squads and then charging them in CC just to have a chance at finishing them off, and even then they could fail.
Alwrath wrote: From White Dwarf " The way reanimation protocols work has been changed in the new codex. Now Necrons can reanimate after each attack, making them very tough to kill off unless you can destroy the entire unit in one go. "
Necrons are gonna be beast in 9th, Immortals are gonna be harder to kill than most units in the game, and Deathmarks are also T5 I believe so they will be hard to shift as well. 20 man Warrior blobs will be a huge pain to get rid of. A Space Marine player may end up shooting at a unit with 3 different squads and then charging them in CC just to have a chance at finishing them off, and even then they could fail.
Don't get too optimistic now. Inferring rule specifics from a sidebar description is an inexact process, and soaking 4 units worth of attacks probably isn't a reasonable expectation.
Argive wrote: The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)
This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.
Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Do the math on removing entire squads with a single unit. 6 agressors could reasonably kill 20 warriors. It is well within reason that they could leave 1 or 2 alive and then nearly the whole squad revives with 4+/3+ reroll 1's. This is a massive increase in durability. Realistically this buff is better than the buff that marines got in 8.5. YES. It's better. If it works the way we think it does anyways.
A: Legions of metal skeletons that Space Marines can kick their way through.
or
B: Trillions of hyper-advanced robots where even the lowest form of them is more than a match for humanity's best troops.
B is scarier, and it's also extremely stupid and nonsensical.
Necron warriors can't be both a gigantic legion that can swarm you in bodies while also having each one be individually more formidable than a Space Marine. It's stupid, and making the warriors chaffier in the fifth edition codex was one of the few things I wholly liked about it.
Why is it stupid, exactly? There's practically no limit to the available resources available to a galaxy spanning empire, and thete's no reason that aliens have to follow a template based around humans. There's no lore problem making a horde of insanely powerful beings. A la, Tyranids, for which there are going to be more Carnifexes in the galaxy than Space Marines.
I am optimistic because the new models are just absolutely boss.
Generally GW gives good rules to models they want to sell.
I think if RP doesn't care about how much damage the model took, we may end up ahead of the game.
Getting the whole command protocols to battle plan once lists are revealed makes an interesting mechanic, which we don't fully understand yet. But its all good
I believe that RP will work so that the roll is made after each unit has resolved all of its attacks against the necron unit. So, if a space marine intercessor squad fires all its guns at my 20 warriors, they roll ten, twenty or whatever attacks, resolve hits and wounds, I make my saves and then i make RP rolls for any model that failed its save and would be removed as a casualty as a result. So the only way to deny RP is to destroy the entire unit with a single round of attacks from one unit, otherwise i get to RP BEFORE you get to shoot the unit again with a separate unit. I also think it is a single roll when the model dies not a FNP roll which you would take for each point of damage.
I think someone said there was something about 6's in the report which could mean that RP has been nerfed to a 6+. That might make sense if you can stack bonuses to it from both a cryptek and reanimator as that would get the roll to 4+ which was the best it could be in days gone by. I think we will lose the opportunity to keep rolling evn for dead models until the whole unit is destroyed. However, Rites of Reanimation might enable us to either roll for units even if they have been totally wiped out or it might allow us to re roll RP rolls or something like that.
Alwrath wrote: From White Dwarf " The way reanimation protocols work has been changed in the new codex. Now Necrons can reanimate after each attack, making them very tough to kill off unless you can destroy the entire unit in one go. "
Necrons are gonna be beast in 9th, Immortals are gonna be harder to kill than most units in the game, and Deathmarks are also T5 I believe so they will be hard to shift as well. 20 man Warrior blobs will be a huge pain to get rid of. A Space Marine player may end up shooting at a unit with 3 different squads and then charging them in CC just to have a chance at finishing them off, and even then they could fail.
Don't get too optimistic now. Inferring rule specifics from a sidebar description is an inexact process, and soaking 4 units worth of attacks probably isn't a reasonable expectation.
There are multiple youtuber's who have broken down the rule to basically mean what we think it means, its not hard to figure out from a logical point of view. We are smart people, the hint is all we needed to figure the rule out. There really is no other way to interpret the rule anyway. Your either coming back at the end of the Necron turn like you do now, or " after each attack " so as soon as a unit resolves its attacks, weither its shooting or assault, they get to roll.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As far as soaking up 4 units worth of attacks, I was thinking about basic troop squads like maybe 5 man Intercessor squads, which are common in Space Marine lists.
Argive wrote: The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)
This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.
Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Do the math on removing entire squads with a single unit. 6 agressors could reasonably kill 20 warriors. It is well within reason that they could leave 1 or 2 alive and then nearly the whole squad revives with 4+/3+ reroll 1's. This is a massive increase in durability. Realistically this buff is better than the buff that marines got in 8.5. YES. It's better. If it works the way we think it does anyways.
Yes, if you pull stuff completely out of your arse its going to be a "massive increase".
And then proclaiming this ass pull is better then Marine 2.0 is just complete gravy on top.
Argive wrote: The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)
This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.
Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Do the math on removing entire squads with a single unit. 6 agressors could reasonably kill 20 warriors. It is well within reason that they could leave 1 or 2 alive and then nearly the whole squad revives with 4+/3+ reroll 1's. This is a massive increase in durability. Realistically this buff is better than the buff that marines got in 8.5. YES. It's better. If it works the way we think it does anyways.
Yes, if you pull stuff completely out of your arse its going to be a "massive increase".
And then proclaiming this ass pull is better then Marine 2.0 is just complete gravy on top.
I am simply taking the leaked information and applying it to the current rules. Then you'll notice at the end where I state..."If it works out the way we think it does".
Insectum7 wrote: Best Necron Troop, T5 1W. - Best SM Troop, T5 3W
It's great Necrons are getting attention and new models and all, but gosh is it rough seeing a faction once known for it's incredibly tough troops just dwindle into a horde in comparison to what Marines can field.
Interesting comparison. We don't know the cost of the heavy intercessor yet do we? In any case. It really seems you are choosing between damage (immortals) or durability (heavy intercessors) here.
Immortal gauss is 5 ap-2 range 30 rapid fire 1
HI 5 ap-1 range 36 rapid fire 1
Same toughness/same attacks/same save. Crons have Reanimate (buffed now - it's basically FNP 5+) I can wager the HI is around 30-35 points...so about 2 for 1 on the immortals.
Well for one thing, saying that the Immortals have the edge in firepower is just wrong, considering the Heavy Ints have the same AP in Tactical doctrine, but also better range, and much more widespread access to force multipliers (unless things are REALLY changing in the new book).
For another, Insectum's complaint is that Immortals are now hordes in comparison to Marines, and you're countering by pointing out that you can probably take twice as many Immortals as they can take Marines. Rather missing the point I think.
It sounds like we are just going back to something similar to 7e rule which is fine be me. For those who started in 8e, this should generally fix our faction because it was basically 8e RP that ruined us in the first place.
Argive wrote: The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)
This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.
Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck
I think you are grossly over estimating how powerful that will be. Let us walk though it with limited information and making some assumptions.
Let us assume that RP works the way that we assume it does and that it is still on a 5+.
Let us use a simple S4 -1AP weapon that is so standard on marines in 9th.
10 Marines get 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5 dead warriors. Let's say that 2 get back up so you are left with 3 dead. Another squad of marines shoots, kills the same amount but then 4 get back up leaving you with just 4 dead warriors. That is insanely durable right?
Those same two squads of marines shooting at Plague Marines is 28 hits, 9 wounds, after saves you have roughly 3 dead Plague Marines. This is before Plague marines go to the two wounds that we know they are getting when their codex gets updated.
So really, Warriors are roughly as tough as Plague Marines if we assume all of these things to be true. The only difference is that RP activates each turn every time they are shot. Focus fire is going to be incredibly important against Necrons because you NEED to make sure that you remove that unit from the table. So yeah, a 20 man Warrior group is going to be tough, but isn't that exactly what they are supposed to be? Also, none of this math takes into account the doctrines or numerous rerolls that marines get in spades.
Consider that the strongest that the new RP can be, if we assume this is the correct way to play it, is bringing back on average 6 warriors if you have a squad down to 1 warrior. More likely you are going to see it come into play on 10 man squads where the average if you are down to 1 man is going to be 3 bodies coming back.
10 marines cost more than 10 warriors, plague marines are double a warrior currently aren't they? If anything you just confirmed they're annoyingly durable now.
But we were talking about 20 Warriors, 10 Warriors is going to be easier to move because all you need to be able to do is kill 10 T4 4+ models in one round of shooting. Considering the firepower that SM can put out that is an easy enough task. Yes cost is important but you are not committing that many more points in offense to take out Necron Warriors and by the way, would it be so awful if we had a unit in the game that could actually survive a turn of shooting? It isn't like the Warriors offensive abilities are going to rock the world once they waddle up to your lines and start firing, they are going to camp objectives and be hard as hell to move. I think that is a good thing even if I have to play against it.
Argive wrote: The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)
This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.
Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck
I think you are grossly over estimating how powerful that will be. Let us walk though it with limited information and making some assumptions.
Let us assume that RP works the way that we assume it does and that it is still on a 5+.
Let us use a simple S4 -1AP weapon that is so standard on marines in 9th.
10 Marines get 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5 dead warriors. Let's say that 2 get back up so you are left with 3 dead. Another squad of marines shoots, kills the same amount but then 4 get back up leaving you with just 4 dead warriors. That is insanely durable right?
Those same two squads of marines shooting at Plague Marines is 28 hits, 9 wounds, after saves you have roughly 3 dead Plague Marines. This is before Plague marines go to the two wounds that we know they are getting when their codex gets updated.
So really, Warriors are roughly as tough as Plague Marines if we assume all of these things to be true. The only difference is that RP activates each turn every time they are shot. Focus fire is going to be incredibly important against Necrons because you NEED to make sure that you remove that unit from the table. So yeah, a 20 man Warrior group is going to be tough, but isn't that exactly what they are supposed to be? Also, none of this math takes into account the doctrines or numerous rerolls that marines get in spades.
Consider that the strongest that the new RP can be, if we assume this is the correct way to play it, is bringing back on average 6 warriors if you have a squad down to 1 warrior. More likely you are going to see it come into play on 10 man squads where the average if you are down to 1 man is going to be 3 bodies coming back.
10 marines cost more than 10 warriors, plague marines are double a warrior currently aren't they? If anything you just confirmed they're annoyingly durable now.
But we were talking about 20 Warriors, 10 Warriors is going to be easier to move because all you need to be able to do is kill 10 T4 4+ models in one round of shooting. Considering the firepower that SM can put out that is an easy enough task. Yes cost is important but you are not committing that many more points in offense to take out Necron Warriors and by the way, would it be so awful if we had a unit in the game that could actually survive a turn of shooting? It isn't like the Warriors offensive abilities are going to rock the world once they waddle up to your lines and start firing, they are going to camp objectives and be hard as hell to move. I think that is a good thing even if I have to play against it.
It's not a combination at all, I see it as a good thing and advocate both the buffs to crons and with a little luck I'll read a little more carefully next time!
On the flip side, the encouragement of big units of Warriors means you get more usage out of those Blast weapons. One of my Plasma Devastator squads kills 13 Warriors with the rerolls that they're always getting.
.888 x .96 x 3 x 3 + (.96 x .96 x 2 x 3) = 13.2
Grav gets me
.888 x .777 x 4 x 3 + (.96 x .777 x 2 x 4) = 14.24 without Grav Strat
At the moment Sternguard under Tactical Doctrine get me 13.7 with SI bolter Strat
20 x .888 x .777 = 13.7
Storm Bolters get me 14
40 x .888 x .6 x .666 = 14.1
Insectum7 wrote: On the flip side, the encouragement of big units of Warriors means you get more usage out of those Blast weapons. One of my Plasma Devastator squads kills 13 Warriors with the rerolls that they're always getting.
.888 x .96 x 3 x 3 + (.96 x .96 x 2 x 3) = 13.2
Grav gets me
.888 x .777 x 4 x 3 + (.96 x .777 x 2 x 4) = 14.24 without Grav Strat
At the moment Sternguard under Tactical Doctrine get me 13.7 with SI bolter Strat
20 x .888 x .777 = 13.7
Storm Bolters get me 14
40 x .888 x .6 x .666 = 14.1
That is an interesting point I didn't think of. Looks like 10 man Immortal squads might be the order of the day for Necron players then.
That is an interesting point I didn't think of. Looks like 10 man Immortal squads might be the order of the day for Necron players then.
I'm going to just go ahead and take credit for this. I stocked up on 40 new warriors two days ago, so, you know, my special luck caused this.
Seriously though, while we still need more info - the new RP preview does give me hope! I was pretty nervous they'd botch it again, but this doesn't look terrible.
That is an interesting point I didn't think of. Looks like 10 man Immortal squads might be the order of the day for Necron players then.
I'm going to just go ahead and take credit for this. I stocked up on 40 new warriors two days ago, so, you know, my special luck caused this.
Seriously though, while we still need more info - the new RP preview does give me hope! I was pretty nervous they'd botch it again, but this doesn't look terrible.
Eh not every army has blast weapons, plus with + to RP rolls and re rolling 1's im sure 20 warrior blobs will be competitive.
That is an interesting point I didn't think of. Looks like 10 man Immortal squads might be the order of the day for Necron players then.
I'm going to just go ahead and take credit for this. I stocked up on 40 new warriors two days ago, so, you know, my special luck caused this.
Seriously though, while we still need more info - the new RP preview does give me hope! I was pretty nervous they'd botch it again, but this doesn't look terrible.
Eh not every army has blast weapons, plus with + to RP rolls and re rolling 1's im sure 20 warrior blobs will be competitive.
Trick for warriors is still going to be getting them chronometron support. Never being able to get worse than a 5++ adds a lot of mileage to their durability.
Why is it stupid, exactly? There's practically no limit to the available resources available to a galaxy spanning empire, and thete's no reason that aliens have to follow a template based around humans. There's no lore problem making a horde of insanely powerful beings. A la, Tyranids, for which there are going to be more Carnifexes in the galaxy than Space Marines.
And I imagine that, if Immortals were at minimum more durable than Marines, they'd also be more numerous in an absolute sense than Marines would be in the galaxy. I imagine there's also probably more hive tyrants than there are Custodian Guard.
But I can also guarantee you that in the majority of battles between Space Marines and Necrons, there are considerably more Warriors on the field than there are Space Marines. The opposite is true with Carnifexes and Marines: in absolute terms galaxy-wide the Marines are outnumbered, but in an individual battle? There are typically going to be more Marines than there will be Carnifexes.
And the game is meant to simulate battles, not the sum totality of an entire factions' soldiers in the entire galaxy.
Necron Warriors either have to be less numerous on the battlefield or somewhat chaffier than Marines. They can't overwhelm with numbers while also being individually more formidable. It's a ridiculous notion and one I'm glad GW will never lend any credence toward.
But it worked back in 3rd/4th, where Necron Warriors were individually better than Marines, but the army as a whole lacked models in between infantry and heavy vehicles, and the Phase Out rule encouraged beefing up your numbers.
Without transports, light tanks, Dreadnoughts, or even large infantry like Ogryns or heavy infantry like Terminators to suck up points, your average Necron list was a Monolith, some Destroyers, and a sea of infantry. I remember it was pretty common for a Necron army to have 60+ models on the table, and back in 3rd that was a considerable number of dudes.
Reducing the capability of the individual Necron Warrior while also adding a bunch of vehicles and heavy infantry really changed the flavor of the army. Not saying it was necessarily the wrong move as the original design was constraining, but the army concept of a legion of Terminators was unique and it worked.
Ah so you're saying that to facilitate the horde of badass skeleton robots who also happen to be stronger man to man than Marines we just need to heavily limit their ability to take transports, light tanks, walkers, or bulky infantry and force them to skew towards big blobs of Warriors.
Thank God GW will never listen to you tbh, because that is incredibly boring.
I'm only talking about warriors here. I'd like Immortals to be a heavier troop choice that are at least more durable than Marines overall, T5 3+ with two wounds and WBB with guns better than an intercessor. A more elite troop choice for Necron players that want to lean on them.
Why is it stupid, exactly? There's practically no limit to the available resources available to a galaxy spanning empire, and thete's no reason that aliens have to follow a template based around humans. There's no lore problem making a horde of insanely powerful beings. A la, Tyranids, for which there are going to be more Carnifexes in the galaxy than Space Marines.
And I imagine that, if Immortals were at minimum more durable than Marines, they'd also be more numerous in an absolute sense than Marines would be in the galaxy. I imagine there's also probably more hive tyrants than there are Custodian Guard.
But I can also guarantee you that in the majority of battles between Space Marines and Necrons, there are considerably more Warriors on the field than there are Space Marines. The opposite is true with Carnifexes and Marines: in absolute terms galaxy-wide the Marines are outnumbered, but in an individual battle? There are typically going to be more Marines than there will be Carnifexes.
And the game is meant to simulate battles, not the sum totality of an entire factions' soldiers in the entire galaxy.
Necron Warriors either have to be less numerous on the battlefield or somewhat chaffier than Marines. They can't overwhelm with numbers while also being individually more formidable. It's a ridiculous notion and one I'm glad GW will never lend any credence toward.
Again, GW managed it in the past with some clever design.
Heck, I've outnumbered Marine armies with hordes of Tyranid Warriors during 8th. If Necron Warriors cost, and were worth, 20 points, you could still fit 90+ of them plus a Lord in a 2K army. Whether or not one army outnumbers another is strictly down to composition.
Ah so you're saying that to facilitate the horde of badass skeleton robots who also happen to be stronger man to man than Marines we just need to heavily limit their ability to take transports, light tanks, walkers, or bulky infantry and force them to skew towards big blobs of Warriors.
Honestly? F all that junk. That's the watering down of Crons into something more like other factions.
Classic Crons didn't need transports, they just telepoted around using floating pyramids. It was awesomesauce.
I really miss the teleportation shenanigans myself. The old crons had a lot more character in their play style and they really did capture that "ancient techno doom" that was beyond the understanding of the imperium.
I do really see where you're coming from because when Necrons became Tomb Kings in space I dropped them completely and only got back to them in the last year or so. When IG we're an easy win at the start of 8th I moved back to Necrons to make things a bit more fun
On one hand I do really miss the old play style where they were incredibly powerful and had character on the table, but at the same time, the small unit roster helped facilitate that, and I don't think the legions of unstoppable doom really works with such a large roster like they have now. I'm conflicted, because ai really miss how they use to play, but at the same time I love the new models and diversity they bring
Sentineil wrote: I really miss the teleportation shenanigans myself. The old crons had a lot more character in their play style and they really did capture that "ancient techno doom" that was beyond the understanding of the imperium.
I do really see where you're coming from because when Necrons became Tomb Kings in space I dropped them completely and only got back to them in the last year or so. When IG we're an easy win at the start of 8th I moved back to Necrons to make things a bit more fun
On one hand I do really miss the old play style where they were incredibly powerful and had character on the table, but at the same time, the small unit roster helped facilitate that, and I don't think the legions of unstoppable doom really works with such a large roster like they have now. I'm conflicted, because ai really miss how they use to play, but at the same time I love the new models and diversity they bring
Yeah my interest in Necrons declined rapidly with the 5th Ed book. I have to say my interest in them shot back up again when PA Pariah was announced, because I thought it might have Pariahs. . .
At the moment I might just be looking at collecting a token group of Warriors and Monoliths to recreate that 3rd Ed. glory. I'm hoping the new Monolith model will bring some of it's old abilities or something similar.
-Ňecrontyr- wrote: Agreed. Deep strike Monolith, reposition infantry through monolith, Veil of Darkness teleport, move monolith/turn facing + reposition more infantry rinse repeat
IT WAS SO GOOOOOOD!!! Just grinding down the opposing army like a slow, inevitable woodchipper.
"(Noob question; how are you guys resizing your text? Mine is always super small and hard to read)" You on your phone? On a PC you can hit Ctrl+ and increase the text size for the whole window.
Back then the Monolith simply got d6 shots at everything within range AND plopped down its MEQ-melting blast, denied monstrous creatures and melta their additional armor pen die, and warscythes ignored INVULN saves...
-Ňecrontyr- wrote: Back then the Monolith simply got d6 shots at everything within range AND plopped down its MEQ-melting blast, denied monstrous creatures and melta their additional armor pen die, and warscythes ignored INVULN saves...
And pull models out of CC and roll for WBB again. Pariahs and Flayed Ones making enemy model freak out. I was just looking at my old book the other day and reminiscing.
We are looking back with rose tinted glasses though. We've all experienced the horror of our monoliths scattering during Deepstrike and ending up in oblivion along with our game plan. That I do not miss!
Question; do you think we will be able to deploy up to a limit of wounds/models through Monoliths/Night scythes, rather than one unit, so that we can actually deply a squad and it support character together?
That is an interesting point I didn't think of. Looks like 10 man Immortal squads might be the order of the day for Necron players then.
I'm going to just go ahead and take credit for this. I stocked up on 40 new warriors two days ago, so, you know, my special luck caused this.
Seriously though, while we still need more info - the new RP preview does give me hope! I was pretty nervous they'd botch it again, but this doesn't look terrible.
Eh not every army has blast weapons, plus with + to RP rolls and re rolling 1's im sure 20 warrior blobs will be competitive.
In my dozen or so games of 9th I have taken a 20+ man unit in every game, and my opponents have gotten max shot blast weapons against me a grand total of four times.
As in, four shots that then get max shots. Two of those instances being the dumb little grenade launcher thingies strapped to every Primaris dread and vehicle that do like D6 S4 Ap-.
Sentineil wrote: We are looking back with rose tinted glasses though. We've all experienced the horror of our monoliths scattering during Deepstrike and ending up in oblivion along with our game plan. That I do not miss!
No sir, the Monolith had some special rules that made it relatively safe. You just had to avoid table edges, iirc.
Eh not every army has blast weapons, plus with + to RP rolls and re rolling 1's im sure 20 warrior blobs will be competitive.
Every classic faction has blast weapons. No one plays an unaligned army with zoats, spindle drones, ambulls, etc.
In my 4k of chaos marines I don't own a single blast weapon (somehow)
So you are telling me that you neither own Any of the following:
DAkkafiend, vindicator, Defieler, varionus FW entries, rocket launchers, havoc rocket launchers?
I mean, i can see armis that would field neither but at some stage you'd surely hae a rhino with ahavoc launcher somewhere?
Eh not every army has blast weapons, plus with + to RP rolls and re rolling 1's im sure 20 warrior blobs will be competitive.
Every classic faction has blast weapons. No one plays an unaligned army with zoats, spindle drones, ambulls, etc.
In my 4k of chaos marines I don't own a single blast weapon (somehow)
So you are telling me that you neither own Any of the following:
DAkkafiend, vindicator, Defieler, varionus FW entries, rocket launchers, havoc rocket launchers?
I mean, i can see armis that would field neither but at some stage you'd surely hae a rhino with ahavoc launcher somewhere?
3 rhinos, no havoc launchers. Got a decimator but none of the blast options. Havoc unit is lascannons and most of my infantry units have special weapons rather than heavy. Do not own any of the above currently.
Edit: I lie. They all have frag grenades
Gotta remember for a long time missile launchers were overpriced, the rhino I kept cheap historically, maulerfiends > hades fiends > plasma fiends. Defilers sucked for a long time and are hideous imo, vindicators I was tempted by when they went full d6 shots but hedged my money for some sisters instead.
Why is it stupid, exactly? There's practically no limit to the available resources available to a galaxy spanning empire, and thete's no reason that aliens have to follow a template based around humans. There's no lore problem making a horde of insanely powerful beings. A la, Tyranids, for which there are going to be more Carnifexes in the galaxy than Space Marines.
And I imagine that, if Immortals were at minimum more durable than Marines, they'd also be more numerous in an absolute sense than Marines would be in the galaxy. I imagine there's also probably more hive tyrants than there are Custodian Guard.
But I can also guarantee you that in the majority of battles between Space Marines and Necrons, there are considerably more Warriors on the field than there are Space Marines. The opposite is true with Carnifexes and Marines: in absolute terms galaxy-wide the Marines are outnumbered, but in an individual battle? There are typically going to be more Marines than there will be Carnifexes.
And the game is meant to simulate battles, not the sum totality of an entire factions' soldiers in the entire galaxy.
Necron Warriors either have to be less numerous on the battlefield or somewhat chaffier than Marines. They can't overwhelm with numbers while also being individually more formidable. It's a ridiculous notion and one I'm glad GW will never lend any credence toward.
Again, GW managed it in the past with some clever design.
From my recollection, Necron players fielded lots of Warriors because of Phase Out. I don't think having the Necron player lose the game if 3/4 of this Necron models died qualifies as clever design.
Insectum7 wrote: Best Necron Troop, T5 1W. - Best SM Troop, T5 3W
It's great Necrons are getting attention and new models and all, but gosh is it rough seeing a faction once known for it's incredibly tough troops just dwindle into a horde in comparison to what Marines can field.
Interesting comparison. We don't know the cost of the heavy intercessor yet do we? In any case. It really seems you are choosing between damage (immortals) or durability (heavy intercessors) here.
Immortal gauss is 5 ap-2 range 30 rapid fire 1
HI 5 ap-1 range 36 rapid fire 1
Same toughness/same attacks/same save. Crons have Reanimate (buffed now - it's basically FNP 5+) I can wager the HI is around 30-35 points...so about 2 for 1 on the immortals.
Well for one thing, saying that the Immortals have the edge in firepower is just wrong, considering the Heavy Ints have the same AP in Tactical doctrine, but also better range, and much more widespread access to force multipliers (unless things are REALLY changing in the new book).
For another, Insectum's complaint is that Immortals are now hordes in comparison to Marines, and you're countering by pointing out that you can probably take twice as many Immortals as they can take Marines. Rather missing the point I think.
I was just evaluating the unit. if you get close to 2 immortals to the price of the HI you are literally getting twice the firepower if they are firing the same weapon - the immortals weapon is actually better (range is less but 30" on immortals is sufficient to do their job) as sautehc they will rapid fire at the same range anyways. True HI can match the AP of the immortal for turn 2 and 3 but we don't know what special rule the immortals are going to get. I have seen leak reviews that suggest 1 of the new command protocols overlords can take will be a -1 AP buff.
Even using ones special rules and not the other though (immortals) immortals still have more firepower than HI do in the tactical doctrin about twice as much. Also Immortals cost exactly the same as a tactical marine now.
Why is it stupid, exactly? There's practically no limit to the available resources available to a galaxy spanning empire, and thete's no reason that aliens have to follow a template based around humans. There's no lore problem making a horde of insanely powerful beings. A la, Tyranids, for which there are going to be more Carnifexes in the galaxy than Space Marines.
And I imagine that, if Immortals were at minimum more durable than Marines, they'd also be more numerous in an absolute sense than Marines would be in the galaxy. I imagine there's also probably more hive tyrants than there are Custodian Guard.
But I can also guarantee you that in the majority of battles between Space Marines and Necrons, there are considerably more Warriors on the field than there are Space Marines. The opposite is true with Carnifexes and Marines: in absolute terms galaxy-wide the Marines are outnumbered, but in an individual battle? There are typically going to be more Marines than there will be Carnifexes.
And the game is meant to simulate battles, not the sum totality of an entire factions' soldiers in the entire galaxy.
Necron Warriors either have to be less numerous on the battlefield or somewhat chaffier than Marines. They can't overwhelm with numbers while also being individually more formidable. It's a ridiculous notion and one I'm glad GW will never lend any credence toward.
Again, GW managed it in the past with some clever design.
From my recollection, Necron players fielded lots of Warriors because of Phase Out. I don't think having the Necron player lose the game if 3/4 of this Necron models died qualifies as clever design.
Yup it was very much "Mathematics tell me to hide these 2 units behind this hill in my deployment out of LoS. Good luck!"
I am finding it increasingly difficult to be optimistic about this Necron release. They are an army that it's fair to say have been messed around with a lot. Too much. Since third edition, each codex has fundamentally changed the way they play.
Yes it is amazing and surprising that GW are showing the faction so much attention, but I dislike almost everything we've seen rules wise so far. It all just seems really highly specific, but overall there is no joined up thinking. And some of the decisions on individual unit datasheets are baffling. Especially as it is impossible not to compare to Space Marines.
Why is it stupid, exactly? There's practically no limit to the available resources available to a galaxy spanning empire, and thete's no reason that aliens have to follow a template based around humans. There's no lore problem making a horde of insanely powerful beings. A la, Tyranids, for which there are going to be more Carnifexes in the galaxy than Space Marines.
And I imagine that, if Immortals were at minimum more durable than Marines, they'd also be more numerous in an absolute sense than Marines would be in the galaxy. I imagine there's also probably more hive tyrants than there are Custodian Guard.
But I can also guarantee you that in the majority of battles between Space Marines and Necrons, there are considerably more Warriors on the field than there are Space Marines. The opposite is true with Carnifexes and Marines: in absolute terms galaxy-wide the Marines are outnumbered, but in an individual battle? There are typically going to be more Marines than there will be Carnifexes.
And the game is meant to simulate battles, not the sum totality of an entire factions' soldiers in the entire galaxy.
Necron Warriors either have to be less numerous on the battlefield or somewhat chaffier than Marines. They can't overwhelm with numbers while also being individually more formidable. It's a ridiculous notion and one I'm glad GW will never lend any credence toward.
Again, GW managed it in the past with some clever design.
From my recollection, Necron players fielded lots of Warriors because of Phase Out. I don't think having the Necron player lose the game if 3/4 of this Necron models died qualifies as clever design.
Yup it was very much "Mathematics tell me to hide these 2 units behind this hill in my deployment out of LoS. Good luck!"
I honestly don't ever remember having to hide anything. So, no.
And I do think it was very clever. It made it possible to field an army that could explicitly feel OP, while at the same time giving the opponent an "out". It also had the effect of making the Monolith, which could also feel very powerful, to begin geeling like a risky proposition when you started taking multiple, while not explicitly limiting the player from doing so. Phase Out was a very unique rule that helped define how Necrons were played and played against.
Why is it stupid, exactly? There's practically no limit to the available resources available to a galaxy spanning empire, and thete's no reason that aliens have to follow a template based around humans. There's no lore problem making a horde of insanely powerful beings. A la, Tyranids, for which there are going to be more Carnifexes in the galaxy than Space Marines.
And I imagine that, if Immortals were at minimum more durable than Marines, they'd also be more numerous in an absolute sense than Marines would be in the galaxy. I imagine there's also probably more hive tyrants than there are Custodian Guard.
But I can also guarantee you that in the majority of battles between Space Marines and Necrons, there are considerably more Warriors on the field than there are Space Marines. The opposite is true with Carnifexes and Marines: in absolute terms galaxy-wide the Marines are outnumbered, but in an individual battle? There are typically going to be more Marines than there will be Carnifexes.
And the game is meant to simulate battles, not the sum totality of an entire factions' soldiers in the entire galaxy.
Necron Warriors either have to be less numerous on the battlefield or somewhat chaffier than Marines. They can't overwhelm with numbers while also being individually more formidable. It's a ridiculous notion and one I'm glad GW will never lend any credence toward.
Again, GW managed it in the past with some clever design.
From my recollection, Necron players fielded lots of Warriors because of Phase Out. I don't think having the Necron player lose the game if 3/4 of this Necron models died qualifies as clever design.
Yup it was very much "Mathematics tell me to hide these 2 units behind this hill in my deployment out of LoS. Good luck!"
I honestly don't ever remember having to hide anything. So, no.
And I do think it was very clever. It made it possible to field an army that could explicitly feel OP, while at the same time giving the opponent an "out". It also had the effect of making the Monolith, which could also feel very powerful, to begin geeling like a risky proposition when you started taking multiple, while not explicitly limiting the player from doing so. Phase Out was a very unique rule that helped define how Necrons were played and played against.
Ywo thumbs up for whomever decoded on that move.
I'm glad you didn't play like an ass but I had a regular opponent who hid 1 unit of warriors in a corner somewhere and if that wasn't enough to ensure he couldn't phase out he just veil of darkness on a second unit when it hit a low enough number.
Why is it stupid, exactly? There's practically no limit to the available resources available to a galaxy spanning empire, and thete's no reason that aliens have to follow a template based around humans. There's no lore problem making a horde of insanely powerful beings. A la, Tyranids, for which there are going to be more Carnifexes in the galaxy than Space Marines.
And I imagine that, if Immortals were at minimum more durable than Marines, they'd also be more numerous in an absolute sense than Marines would be in the galaxy. I imagine there's also probably more hive tyrants than there are Custodian Guard.
But I can also guarantee you that in the majority of battles between Space Marines and Necrons, there are considerably more Warriors on the field than there are Space Marines. The opposite is true with Carnifexes and Marines: in absolute terms galaxy-wide the Marines are outnumbered, but in an individual battle? There are typically going to be more Marines than there will be Carnifexes.
And the game is meant to simulate battles, not the sum totality of an entire factions' soldiers in the entire galaxy.
Necron Warriors either have to be less numerous on the battlefield or somewhat chaffier than Marines. They can't overwhelm with numbers while also being individually more formidable. It's a ridiculous notion and one I'm glad GW will never lend any credence toward.
Again, GW managed it in the past with some clever design.
From my recollection, Necron players fielded lots of Warriors because of Phase Out. I don't think having the Necron player lose the game if 3/4 of this Necron models died qualifies as clever design.
Yup it was very much "Mathematics tell me to hide these 2 units behind this hill in my deployment out of LoS. Good luck!"
I honestly don't ever remember having to hide anything. So, no.
And I do think it was very clever. It made it possible to field an army that could explicitly feel OP, while at the same time giving the opponent an "out". It also had the effect of making the Monolith, which could also feel very powerful, to begin geeling like a risky proposition when you started taking multiple, while not explicitly limiting the player from doing so. Phase Out was a very unique rule that helped define how Necrons were played and played against.
Ywo thumbs up for whomever decoded on that move.
I'm glad you didn't play like an ass but I had a regular opponent who hid 1 unit of warriors in a corner somewhere and if that wasn't enough to ensure he couldn't phase out he just veil of darkness on a second unit when it hit a low enough number.
Imo you should have been able to take advantage of him not using some of his army. You're complaining about losing to an opponent who is deliberately holding back models out of fear. I think that one's on you.
That is an interesting point I didn't think of. Looks like 10 man Immortal squads might be the order of the day for Necron players then.
I'm going to just go ahead and take credit for this. I stocked up on 40 new warriors two days ago, so, you know, my special luck caused this.
Seriously though, while we still need more info - the new RP preview does give me hope! I was pretty nervous they'd botch it again, but this doesn't look terrible.
I have 120 Warriors, thanks to Indomitus and recently offloading 20 Warriors. I have 40 Immortals.
Some poor soul in this edition is going to get to face all 160 of these guys. With support. Not even sure how many points that game will be, but last time I tine I did it, it was fun and funny.
The strangest thing happens when you throw down 80+ warriors on a table - some opponents really fail to remember to wipe out the entire squad, thinking that morale will do it for them.
I'll be seeing how durable they are this edition!
If I got into the full swing of Necrons, that's the sort of army I'd be looking at. Plus a Monolith (original model) or two. Basically the cover art of 3rd ed book.
Blndmage wrote: 180 Warriors is 2,160 :(
140 would be 1,680, leaving 320 for support/HQs
Well, I've done a couple 3000 point games in 8th, so maybe that's what they're talking about. But for a 2K I'd think you'd cap out at 120 from the Battalion Force Org.
Insectum7 wrote: If I got into the full swing of Necrons, that's the sort of army I'd be looking at. Plus a Monolith (original model) or two. Basically the cover art of 3rd ed book.
You seriously want an old monolith? With this new beauty coming out that makes the current monolith look like a dreidel?
So we've gone kinda off topic since I started this thread, but with the latest news about aura abilities let me just make one final point:
Abundance of aura abilities and combined aura abilities have been a point of concern all through 8th ed. Now they seemingly nerfed those aura abilities.
There is of course already a thread discussing this in detail, so no point in going any deeper on this subject in this thread, but my point is this: if this change isn't grounds for optimism, I don't know what is.
Tiberias wrote: So we've gone kinda off topic since I started this thread, but with the latest news about aura abilities let me just make one final point:
Abundance of aura abilities and combined aura abilities have been a point of concern all through 8th ed. Now they seemingly nerfed those aura abilities.
There is of course already a thread discussing this in detail, so no point in going any deeper on this subject in this thread, but my point is this: if this change isn't grounds for optimism, I don't know what is.
Eh. Truthfully, I'm feeling a little less optimistic now.
Don't get me wrong, the new models are fantastic, the change to RP looks promising (once we know the details).
But part of what drew me to necrons in the first place (years and years ago- I didn't play 7th) was a lack of characters (and dependence on characters). So between the command protocols and this (if/then dependency for auras) I'm feeling more constrained than I like. As much as I like limiting reroll auras, I don't like the increased dependency on characters overall, especially in an army that traditionally didn't rely on them. Combined, the protocols and the Core change are giving me bad Synapse vibes, with a bit of craftworld eldar buff dependency. Neither of which I liked in their own armies, let alone dumping them into this one.
I'm overgeneralizing a little, partly because I'm tired of character spam. I like the ethos of faceless troopers in the 40k setting (whatever happens, you will not be missed!), not 5-8 characters for every faction.
I know I'm optimistic to play this weekend with the hinted new RP rule. I started a Necron army off of lore and wanted to make a durable army that wears you down. Then every time i place the warriors i painted on the board they get blasted off without ever using their special rule. This new rule really gives me a reason to be excited and to actually paint some new warriors because before this i had way too many to ever use without screwing myself
Insectum7 wrote: If I got into the full swing of Necrons, that's the sort of army I'd be looking at. Plus a Monolith (original model) or two. Basically the cover art of 3rd ed book.
You seriously want an old monolith? With this new beauty coming out that makes the current monolith look like a dreidel?
Heck yeah. I prefer the "geometric perfection" look over the weird textured look of the new one. I have an old one from 3rd Ed and two more NIB ones just in case.
I'm still bummed I sold this one years ago:
(Large Images)
Insectum7 wrote: If I got into the full swing of Necrons, that's the sort of army I'd be looking at. Plus a Monolith (original model) or two. Basically the cover art of 3rd ed book.
You seriously want an old monolith? With this new beauty coming out that makes the current monolith look like a dreidel?
Heck yeah. I prefer the "geometric perfection" look over the weird textured look of the new one. I have an old one from 3rd Ed and two more NIB ones just in case.
I'm still bummed I sold this one years ago:
(Large Images)
Spoiler:
I totally agree with you about the look of the old Monolith!
Holy Fething Gak!!!
That Monolith, and army, is AMAZING!
Proper Wraiths!!
Blndmage wrote: 180 Warriors is 2,160 :(
140 would be 1,680, leaving 320 for support/HQs 120 would leave room for a Cryptek and Monolith
I don't remember exactly how I built that list, but what I do remember was the following:
3,000 points.
Mephrit Dynasty (opponent played Chaos Marines.. Black Legion? Don't remember)
4x20 Warriors
Overlord with res orb
Szeras
Cryptek + Chronometron
Ghost Ark
Sword & Board Lychguard - full unit of 10
I don't remember what else was there, and I don't have access to the points at this point in time, but I believe I also had 20 tesla immortals as well.
I have two, but I've never even used a Monolith.... here's hoping that I have good reason to this new edition.
Insectum7 wrote: If I got into the full swing of Necrons, that's the sort of army I'd be looking at. Plus a Monolith (original model) or two. Basically the cover art of 3rd ed book.
You seriously want an old monolith? With this new beauty coming out that makes the current monolith look like a dreidel?
Heck yeah. I prefer the "geometric perfection" look over the weird textured look of the new one. I have an old one from 3rd Ed and two more NIB ones just in case.
I'm still bummed I sold this one years ago:
(Large Images)
Spoiler:
I totally agree with you about the look of the old Monolith!
Holy Fething Gak!!!
That Monolith, and army, is AMAZING!
Proper Wraiths!!
Thanks Blindmage! I really had a lot of fun with that army back in 3rd/4th. I kinda want to make it again, but the thought of repainting all that clean silver is daunting.
Here's the full collection: (had trouble finding the image, at first.)
Spoiler:
I was especially fond of the old Heavy Destroyers, too.
Insectum7 wrote: If I got into the full swing of Necrons, that's the sort of army I'd be looking at. Plus a Monolith (original model) or two. Basically the cover art of 3rd ed book.
You seriously want an old monolith? With this new beauty coming out that makes the current monolith look like a dreidel?
Heck yeah. I prefer the "geometric perfection" look over the weird textured look of the new one. I have an old one from 3rd Ed and two more NIB ones just in case.
I'm still bummed I sold this one years ago:
(Large Images)
Spoiler:
That monolith is painted quite awesomely.
I'm looking forward to the new Monoliths mostly because they were some of the first models I ever assembled and they are pretty awful. Getting a clean sweep of all these models that were some of the first ones I ever did is really great.
Space Marines just got NERFED. No more re rolls aura for units that are not core units. So tanks will not be getting re roll 1's or hits anymore. There you go, now I want all of you to really start getting excited about Necrons in 9th. Im calling it now, GW will make them one of the most powerful armies in 9th.
I'm looking forward to the new Monoliths mostly because they were some of the first models I ever assembled and they are pretty awful. Getting a clean sweep of all these models that were some of the first ones I ever did is really great.
You seriously want an old monolith? With this new beauty coming out that makes the current monolith look like a dreidel?
Does it make me uncool if I say I dislike BOTH versions?
Maybe not, but I gotta ask if you have ideas for an alternative.
I like the design of the old one, it's a wierdly tricky model to build though, iirc. It's got some flaws. The green crystal had to go, imo.
I am a fan of the old Monolith, always liked the way it looked. The new one is okay, looks a little busy. I would prefer the old one too if I played Necron. My buddy had alot of fun playing with 3 of them on occasion back in the day, he would make his brother who plays Tau rip his hair out and complain sometimes, it was funny to watch.
Tiberias wrote: So we've gone kinda off topic since I started this thread, but with the latest news about aura abilities let me just make one final point:
Abundance of aura abilities and combined aura abilities have been a point of concern all through 8th ed. Now they seemingly nerfed those aura abilities.
There is of course already a thread discussing this in detail, so no point in going any deeper on this subject in this thread, but my point is this: if this change isn't grounds for optimism, I don't know what is.
Eh, GW will find a way to make it super unbalanced, with some factions having all of their killiest units count as "core" for some reason, and others having nigh-useless core choices.
I would like to apologise for previously failing to demonstrate appropriate levels of optimism. Necron release means all Xeno factions will get everything they could wish for, which is great. Or they might not, which is also great.
vipoid wrote: I would like to apologise for previously failing to demonstrate appropriate levels of optimism. Necron release means all Xeno factions will get everything they could wish for, which is great. Or they might not, which is also great.
GW best company ever.
9th best edition ever.
40k best game ever.
It's about time you got with the program, be happy, enjoy life. I was starting to worry for your mental state, can't be healthy to be endlessly getting so worked up and pouring vitriol onto an anonymous forum so heavily.
vipoid wrote: I would like to apologise for previously failing to demonstrate appropriate levels of optimism. Necron release means all Xeno factions will get everything they could wish for, which is great. Or they might not, which is also great.
GW best company ever.
9th best edition ever.
40k best game ever.
It's about time you got with the program, be happy, enjoy life. I was starting to worry for your mental state, can't be healthy to be endlessly getting so worked up and pouring vitriol onto an anonymous forum so heavily.
Plus now you'll get more circle jerking.
Actually less until we have the positivity revolution
That said one more to the legion - soon we will overthrow the Moaners Confederation!
vipoid wrote: I would like to apologise for previously failing to demonstrate appropriate levels of optimism. Necron release means all Xeno factions will get everything they could wish for, which is great. Or they might not, which is also great.
GW best company ever.
9th best edition ever.
40k best game ever.
It's about time you got with the program, be happy, enjoy life. I was starting to worry for your mental state, can't be healthy to be endlessly getting so worked up and pouring vitriol onto an anonymous forum so heavily.
Plus now you'll get more circle jerking.
Yes, my old life was terrible one. But now I have been shown the way.
dakkadakka kindly recommended me to the Citadel Reeducatorium Centarius (TM).
It was excellent place and I fully recommend. Definitely worth at least three times the price.
I am feeling much better now after my stay. Am smiling much more as well.
What do inquisitors do to people who frown? What do inquisitors do to people who frown? What do inquisitors do to people who frown?
vipoid wrote: I would like to apologise for previously failing to demonstrate appropriate levels of optimism. Necron release means all Xeno factions will get everything they could wish for, which is great. Or they might not, which is also great.
GW best company ever.
9th best edition ever.
40k best game ever.
It's about time you got with the program, be happy, enjoy life. I was starting to worry for your mental state, can't be healthy to be endlessly getting so worked up and pouring vitriol onto an anonymous forum so heavily.
Plus now you'll get more circle jerking.
Yes, my old life was terrible one. But now I have been shown the way.
dakkadakka kindly recommended me to the Citadel Reeducatorium Centarius (TM).
It was excellent place and I fully recommend. Definitely worth at least three times the price.
I am feeling much better now after my stay. Am smiling much more as well.
What do inquisitors do to people who frown? What do inquisitors do to people who frown? What do inquisitors do to people who frown?
Won't go back. Can't go back.
GW best company ever.
9th best edition ever.
40k best game ever.
No more negativity. I promise. I promise!
GW best company ever.
9th best edition ever.
40k best game ever.
If you don’t not like the game then why not move on? Why do the mods allow every thread to be highjacked. It’s killing Dakka
Speaking on necron releases, pretyt much by now if you have a necron army you have a shooty army, so I'd like to see gw do a release box emphasizing close assault combat.
Maybe a box featuring the indomitus skorpekh destroyers, who cares of they're EZ build as long at they're at a good discount and maybe come in a 6 figure set? I zoggin' don't!
Or a box with the destroyers and a destroyer lord. Again, ez build is fine with me as long as it's at a discount.
Possibly a deluxe assault force with skorpekh and ophydian destroyers, a flayed one squad and a destroyer lord. All you need to giver your current shooty army full close combat capability.
vipoid wrote: I would like to apologise for previously failing to demonstrate appropriate levels of optimism. Necron release means all Xeno factions will get everything they could wish for, which is great. Or they might not, which is also great.
GW best company ever.
9th best edition ever.
40k best game ever.
You are simply overreacting.
Get calm and think more rationally.
CEO Kasen wrote: Because thought policing it to be pro-GW would kill it way quicker than the grumbling
Incidentally, that post was great; Someone else miss the point so Vipoid has to add another level of Blatant.
no but I do think the mods should occasionally step in when certain people Hijack every thread with the same relentless "DUR MARINE OP! THEIR NEW CODEX IS GONNA BE EVEN MORE OP!" Crap. especially as golly gee, some nerfs are coming, it's almost like those who said "chill out, wait and see" may have ahd a point
If you don’t not like the game then why not move on? Why do the mods allow every thread to be highjacked. It’s killing Dakka
Disagreeing with the premise of the topic is posting on-topic.
You don't like it when people disagree? Feel free to leave.
Disagreeing with the premise of an Ork tactics thread and discussing Marine tactics instead is off topic.
If the topic of the thread is for people who are excited by the releases to discuss them, then that's the topic. If you don't agree, and aren't happy about things that's fine, but why insist on posting in this one? You don't like the topic, don't get involved. There's no need to try and bring down the mood in here.
Start a thread about everything that's bad about the game where you can discuss with other people of a like mind. I'll happily stay out of it.
At the end of the day, why attack someone else's enjoyment of the game and releases?
If you don’t not like the game then why not move on? Why do the mods allow every thread to be highjacked. It’s killing Dakka
Disagreeing with the premise of the topic is posting on-topic.
You don't like it when people disagree? Feel free to leave.
Disagreeing with the premise of an Ork tactics thread and discussing Marine tactics instead is off topic.
If the topic of the thread is for people who are excited by the releases to discuss them, then that's the topic. If you don't agree, and aren't happy about things that's fine, but why insist on posting in this one? You don't like the topic, don't get involved. There's no need to try and bring down the mood in here.
Start a thread about everything that's bad about the game where you can discuss with other people of a like mind. I'll happily stay out of it.
At the end of the day, why attack someone else's enjoyment of the game and releases?
The issues is there are some people who want others to feel miserable with them and will be negative and drag others down to have more people to relate to. They want people to feel their pain etc.
Some other people simply will never be happy, to take a relevant point in question. If GW invent 3 new dark eldar hq's, one for each sub-army, it won't be good enough, because it isn't the exact special characters that were taken away, it doesn't add wings/bikes to archons, "it's just GW treating them like marines and making more lieutenants" etc. Etc.
It might not be that they come in here to crap on the OP or topic, just to voice their thoughts for some positive affirmation or to be inflammatory.
Not that it makes it any more appropriate, but might give it context. Likewise I made an example from Vipoid's complaints, but I'm not intending to represent their thoughts, it was just a convenient example. Maybe they would be happy with that.
I disagree... im very happy for necron players. Genuienly am. I dont begrudge them new models. But at the same time i can say, are the marines really necessary along them? This sugest more marines and less other stuff always..
And i dont understand the need to spin the nareative of everybody hijacking every thread with "derP i ThInK toO MaNy sPaCE mariNes tHErEForE I HAtE sPAcE MaRinES DerP" like itssome sort of conspiracy... its demonstrably a valid gripe so people are allowed to gripe. I certainly gripe from time to time..
The thing is if certain people only say that same thing (i think thats just not true but whatever) and annoys you, whellll... theres a neat little ignore button. But yet people are ironicaly as hard headed the otherway and dont realise it which is funny.
Argive wrote: I disagree... im very happy for necron players. Genuienly am. I dont begrudge them new models. But at the same time i can say, are the marines really necessary along them? This sugest more marines and less other stuff always..
And i dont understand the need to spin the nareative of everybody hijacking every thread with "derP i ThInK toO MaNy sPaCE mariNes tHErEForE I HAtE sPAcE MaRinES DerP" like itssome sort of conspiracy... its demonstrably a valid gripe so people are allowed to gripe. I certainly gripe from time to time..
The thing is if certain people only say that same thing (i think thats just not true but whatever) and annoys you, whellll... theres a neat little ignore button. But yet people are ironicaly as hard headed the otherway and dont realise it which is funny.
Too many marine releases is a valid gripe. It's not a valid gripe in every thread though, and when someone specifically creates a thread with the aim of celebrating what's good, why do so many insist on coming in to complain?
I really don't understand the mindset behind it, because as far as I can tell it boils down to "I'm not happy, so I don't want others to be".
Semantics. You roll after enemy attacks same as FnP
Not really. If the new RP rules allow you to roll for every model killed by a set of attacks it works out quite different to FNP. Multi-damage weapons work very differently with FNP compared to the rumoured RP rules, especially against multi-wound models. It's likely to make smaller Necron models much more resilient while helping out he larger ones much less as FNP gets better the more wounds you have.
Matt Swain wrote: Speaking on necron releases, pretyt much by now if you have a necron army you have a shooty army, so I'd like to see gw do a release box emphasizing close assault combat.
Maybe a box featuring the indomitus skorpekh destroyers, who cares of they're EZ build as long at they're at a good discount and maybe come in a 6 figure set? I zoggin' don't!
Or a box with the destroyers and a destroyer lord. Again, ez build is fine with me as long as it's at a discount.
Possibly a deluxe assault force with skorpekh and ophydian destroyers, a flayed one squad and a destroyer lord. All you need to giver your current shooty army full close combat capability.
It would seem that the Indomitus Necrons will be the core of a new Start Collecting set, based on how they're designed.
That'd be 10 Warriors, 3 Scarabs, 3 Skorpek Destroyers,a Plasmacyte, and an Overlord, for 18 models in a box. There *might* be a Plasmancer or Royal Warden in the mix as well.
That's not assured, but that's the likely outcome.
Disagreeing with the premise of an Ork tactics thread and discussing Marine tactics instead is off topic.
Complete strawman my man. A better example would be, say, someone making an Ork thread where their OP states that Da Killa Klaw is OP and needs nerfs, and then people disagreeing.
If the topic of the thread is for people who are excited by the releases to discuss them, then that's the topic. If you don't agree, and aren't happy about things that's fine, but why insist on posting in this one? You don't like the topic, don't get involved. There's no need to try and bring down the mood in here.
Start a thread about everything that's bad about the game where you can discuss with other people of a like mind. I'll happily stay out of it.
At the end of the day, why attack someone else's enjoyment of the game and releases?
No, OP says he is optimistic, making the topic about optimism for xenos because of the Necron release. He even specifically said that HE thinks it is grounds for optimism. No one is required to agree with this premise. If you don't want people to disagree with your optimism? Make a blog post, or a discord channel where you can regulate what is posted.
Argive wrote: well... You are not allowed not to be optimistic on the WH40kFB page it seems
you mean flooding a corperate webpage with trash talk about how bad the product they're selling gets your post deleted? gee who'd have thunk!
So is NuGW^TM really completely different and all factions will get their turn and balance is coming, just wait and see! Or is NuGW the same as before and it's totally not surprising that their FB page is an arm of the Ministry of Propaganda? Because you guys don't get to have it both ways.
Argive wrote: well... You are not allowed not to be optimistic on the WH40kFB page it seems
you mean flooding a corperate webpage with trash talk about how bad the product they're selling gets your post deleted? gee who'd have thunk!
So is NuGW^TM really completely different and all factions will get their turn and balance is coming, just wait and see! Or is NuGW the same as before and it's totally not surprising that their FB page is an arm of the Ministry of Propaganda? Because you guys don't get to have it both ways.
No company is going to tolerate massive negativity on their own promotional web pages, and a corporate FB page is 100% a promotional tool. That has nothing to do with whether GW has changed from its previous incarnation into a more communicative and engaged company.
No company is going to tolerate massive negativity on their own promotional web pages, and a corporate FB page is 100% a promotional tool. That has nothing to do with whether GW has changed from its previous incarnation into a more communicative and engaged company.
Yea there's no way they can staff to respond to all the posts on days where the community goes nuts - especially when they don't have any extra info to give.
Having played against Necrons in my last game...I really hope they get a lot more good stuff than just "res prots work."
That might get them functional, but man, there are some DEPRESSING unit statlines over in ol' codex necrons...including a bunch of the new units.
The new big spindly resurrection bug thingy is a complete and utter waste of space, the new skorpek destroyers are super-slow glass cannons, the new warrior gun is just terrible, and pretty much every weapon that was either shot or swung at me I expected to deal at least 30% more damage than it ended up dealing.
I thought my Eldar character statlines were depressing until I had some random ork stuff get into combat with necrons.
the basic necron HQ has THREE ATTACKS? At strength SEVEN? dude doinked off of a battlewagon without causing a single scratch before getting effortlessly mulched by the deffrolla, that's just sad. And then there was a fight between a weirdboy and a cryptek towards the end of the game where we were basically just goofing around and I learned that crypteks are a 100 point model that gets ONE count 'em ONE melee attack.
imperial guard sergeants don't have one melee attack!
Maybe not, but I gotta ask if you have ideas for an alternative.
I like the design of the old one, it's a wierdly tricky model to build though, iirc. It's got some flaws. The green crystal had to go, imo.
1 million percent agree on the green crystal! Reminded me of the candy portion of those "ring pops" kids used to get. lol
If I had to pick one or the other, I would probably pick the new one, but no, I don't have alternatives. I'm honestly not even sure why I don't like them either. Typically I can say pretty quick what doesn't appeal to me, but for this model, I can't. Something about it just doesn't quite "work" for me. IDK why. I like the idea of it though.
no but I do think the mods should occasionally step in when certain people Hijack every thread with the same relentless "DUR MARINE OP! THEIR NEW CODEX IS GONNA BE EVEN MORE OP!" Crap. especially as golly gee, some nerfs are coming, it's almost like those who said "chill out, wait and see" may have ahd a point
Have you ever thought there was a problem with Marines? Ever? Because the people screaming about the people screaming ... are just as bad imo ...
the basic necron HQ has THREE ATTACKS? At strength SEVEN? dude doinked off of a battlewagon without causing a single scratch before getting effortlessly mulched by the deffrolla, that's just sad. And then there was a fight between a weirdboy and a cryptek towards the end of the game where we were basically just goofing around and I learned that crypteks are a 100 point model that gets ONE count 'em ONE melee attack.
imperial guard sergeants don't have one melee attack!
Yeah, Warscythes were lacklustre even before Marines started getting S8 weapons with straight 3 or even straight 4 damage.
the basic necron HQ has THREE ATTACKS? At strength SEVEN? dude doinked off of a battlewagon without causing a single scratch before getting effortlessly mulched by the deffrolla, that's just sad. And then there was a fight between a weirdboy and a cryptek towards the end of the game where we were basically just goofing around and I learned that crypteks are a 100 point model that gets ONE count 'em ONE melee attack.
imperial guard sergeants don't have one melee attack!
Yeah, Warscythes were lacklustre even before Marines started getting S8 weapons with straight 3 or even straight 4 damage.
So like...from the index? Thunder hammers are in the index.
the basic necron HQ has THREE ATTACKS? At strength SEVEN? dude doinked off of a battlewagon without causing a single scratch before getting effortlessly mulched by the deffrolla, that's just sad. And then there was a fight between a weirdboy and a cryptek towards the end of the game where we were basically just goofing around and I learned that crypteks are a 100 point model that gets ONE count 'em ONE melee attack.
imperial guard sergeants don't have one melee attack!
Yeah, Warscythes were lacklustre even before Marines started getting S8 weapons with straight 3 or even straight 4 damage.
So like...from the index? Thunder hammers are in the index.
They were D3 even in the index, were they? I couldn't quite remember.
Regardless, my point was that Warscythes were mediocre at best in the Index and have only gotten worse since then.
the_scotsman wrote: Having played against Necrons in my last game...I really hope they get a lot more good stuff than just "res prots work."
That might get them functional, but man, there are some DEPRESSING unit statlines over in ol' codex necrons...including a bunch of the new units.
The new big spindly resurrection bug thingy is a complete and utter waste of space, the new skorpek destroyers are super-slow glass cannons, the new warrior gun is just terrible, and pretty much every weapon that was either shot or swung at me I expected to deal at least 30% more damage than it ended up dealing.
I thought my Eldar character statlines were depressing until I had some random ork stuff get into combat with necrons.
the basic necron HQ has THREE ATTACKS? At strength SEVEN? dude doinked off of a battlewagon without causing a single scratch before getting effortlessly mulched by the deffrolla, that's just sad. And then there was a fight between a weirdboy and a cryptek towards the end of the game where we were basically just goofing around and I learned that crypteks are a 100 point model that gets ONE count 'em ONE melee attack.
imperial guard sergeants don't have one melee attack!
As a Necron player, I can say you're completely correct. The best summation of Necron stats and weapons I can come up with is they're mostly just wrong. They have things like the Gauss Reaper with solid base stats...and stupidly short range while being RF. They have -4AP on their Warscythe...with S7 and D2 making it inferior to pretty much every comparable counterpart in other armies. The Tesla Destructor gets S7 and a lot of shots...with no way to buff the Tesla procs and no AP. With very few exceptions, Necron weapons and statlines are usually lacking in one crucial area or another.
At first the Warscythe ignored Armor and Invuln saves, making it quite worriesome for your opponent's heavy infantry/charscters
Then it had Armorbane's 2d6 armor penetration and was a usefull tool to carve open vehicles and inflict penetrating hits, and later strip away hull points which were relativly low count on most vehicles.
Now, vehicles have triple to quadruple their former hullpoints-turned-wounds while the Warscythe has largly retained its base stats.
It has degenerated in usefullness and scare factor with every subsequent edition until we come to the sad state of affairs we have now; where it bounces off Invuln saves and barely dents hubcaps
-Ňecrontyr- wrote: At first the Warscythe ignored Armor and Invuln saves, making it quite worriesome for your opponent's heavy infantry/charscters
Then it had Armorbane's 2d6 armor penetration and was a usefull tool to carve open vehicles and inflict penetrating hits, and later strip away hull points which were relativly low count on most vehicles.
Now, vehicles have triple to quadruple their former hullpoints-turned-wounds while the Warscythe has largly retained its base stats.
It has degenerated in usefullness and scare factor with every subsequent edition until we come to the sad state of affairs we have now; where it bounces off Invuln saves and barely dents hubcaps
I'd vote for giving it back ap -5 and ignores invulns, make those 3 attacks mean something.
It feels like giving warscythes a "causes additional MW's on an unmodified 6" rule would give it some of that esoteric punch its been lacking, without neccesarily changing its list of targets
I think quite a few Xeno weapons (including not just the Warscythe but also stuff like Dark/Bright Lances) suffer from GW overestimating the usefulness of AP.
These weapons seem to get AP-4 when comparable weapons have AP-3, but they trade that single pip of AP for a lot of other useful stuff (e.g. extra strength, better damage). However, going from AP-3 to AP-4 simply doesn't make a great deal of difference. Especially given how many armoured targets also have invulnerable saves.
vipoid wrote: I think quite a few Xeno weapons (including not just the Warscythe but also stuff like Dark/Bright Lances) suffer from GW overestimating the usefulness of AP.
These weapons seem to get AP-4 when comparable weapons have AP-3, but they trade that single pip of AP for a lot of other useful stuff (e.g. extra strength, better damage). However, going from AP-3 to AP-4 simply doesn't make a great deal of difference. Especially given how many armoured targets also have invulnerable saves.
GW in my experiance overestimates the use of a lot of things, range is another good one that GWIMHO seems to over value
the_scotsman wrote: Having played against Necrons in my last game...I really hope they get a lot more good stuff than just "res prots work."
That might get them functional, but man, there are some DEPRESSING unit statlines over in ol' codex necrons...including a bunch of the new units.
The new big spindly resurrection bug thingy is a complete and utter waste of space, the new skorpek destroyers are super-slow glass cannons, the new warrior gun is just terrible, and pretty much every weapon that was either shot or swung at me I expected to deal at least 30% more damage than it ended up dealing.
I thought my Eldar character statlines were depressing until I had some random ork stuff get into combat with necrons.
the basic necron HQ has THREE ATTACKS? At strength SEVEN? dude doinked off of a battlewagon without causing a single scratch before getting effortlessly mulched by the deffrolla, that's just sad. And then there was a fight between a weirdboy and a cryptek towards the end of the game where we were basically just goofing around and I learned that crypteks are a 100 point model that gets ONE count 'em ONE melee attack.
imperial guard sergeants don't have one melee attack!
They have -4AP on their Warscythe...with S7 and D2 making it inferior to pretty much every comparable counterpart in other armies.
Hey, at least it's better than the Archite Glaive!
vipoid wrote: I think quite a few Xeno weapons (including not just the Warscythe but also stuff like Dark/Bright Lances) suffer from GW overestimating the usefulness of AP.
These weapons seem to get AP-4 when comparable weapons have AP-3, but they trade that single pip of AP for a lot of other useful stuff (e.g. extra strength, better damage). However, going from AP-3 to AP-4 simply doesn't make a great deal of difference. Especially given how many armoured targets also have invulnerable saves.
GW in my experiance overestimates the use of a lot of things, range is another good one that GWIMHO seems to over value
They have not yet grasped that range has an inverse exponential curve of usefulness because the board is so small that once you hit 30" that's "Range = Always". going from 8 to 12? HUGE deal. Going from 12 to 18 - also a big deal. 18 to 24, suddenly you're in "can attack first turn" territory. 24 to 30, "can attack first turn without moving into no mans land".
but then GW is like "But what about 36" range weapons? And 48" range weapons? And 60" range weapons? TWO HUNDRED FORTY INCH RANGE WEAPONNNNNNN"
30 inches range for a basic infantry RF weapon is also pretty big because it means you're gonna have a turn of rapid fire before your enemy does. it's a biiiig part of why Tau and Space Marines are considered to have the best basic troop gun in the game.
BrianDavion wrote: 30 inches range for a basic infantry RF weapon is also pretty big because it means you're gonna have a turn of rapid fire before your enemy does. it's a biiiig part of why Tau and Space Marines are considered to have the best basic troop gun in the game.
Or, if you're a space marine, usually 2 turns in a vacuum.
You know, because Tau don't get rapid fire at 30". They have to get within 15", only 3" more than most other competitors.
Part of the reason why the Tactical Marine has been the least-favored son in a post Bolter Discipline world is that he is the only space marine troop choice who does not start the game fully within optimal range of his weapon. Everyone else, whether they infiltrate into place or have an Assault 24" gun or a Bolter Discipline or Heavy 30" gun, start fully able to target the enemy front line without moving.
Shrinking the depth of the deployment zone 2" or 6" just exacerbates the problem that other foot troops now have trying to compete with marines in the killing game. And since 8th has never had functional transports, only those factions who have their own long range troops gun (such as admech) or who have access to an open-topped transport (such as harlequins and drukhari) can have shooting troops that even try to participate in the killing game.
your two choices if you do have shooting-focused troops is to try and turn them into reserve bombs, so that they can appear within range, or relegate them entirely to the scoring game, don't bother giving them any upgrades that increase their cost/killing power, and use them solely as objective grabbing tokens.
You'll never see Pink Horrors, Guardsmen, Skitarii, Cultists, Guardians, Dire Avengers, Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, Kroot, Necron Warriors or Termagants having a use case in a post-Bolter Discipline meta unless they become so undercosted that they can afford to weather a full round of firepower before taking their shot and come out on top. It's the number one rule I hope gets gone in the new marine dex in exchange for the various core statline improvements that we're seeing in the assembly instructions. GW is taking the time to address the weakness of the core marine statline that existed prior to 2.0, but if they want to avoid having to powercreep everyone else into the stratosphere they need to dial back on some of the quick blanket fixes they piled on in 2.0 to roughly fix everything all at once.
Unfortunately, given what we've seen from necron statline improvements vs blanket rule improvements, they're taking a "marines 2.0" approach to improving Necrons, not a "marines 3.0" approach of actually doing a deep dive on the statlines and addressing core inefficiencies. They're getting some improvements mostly in the realms of melee damage and anti tank which is direly needed but the biggest boosts are going to come from Resurrection Protocols and Doctrines, which means just like with Marines 2.0 the best stuff in the necron codex will just get better and the worst stuff will say pointless.
the_scotsman wrote: Unfortunately, given what we've seen from necron statline improvements vs blanket rule improvements, they're taking a "marines 2.0" approach to improving Necrons, not a "marines 3.0" approach of actually doing a deep dive on the statlines and addressing core inefficiencies. They're getting some improvements mostly in the realms of melee damage and anti tank which is direly needed but the biggest boosts are going to come from Resurrection Protocols and Doctrines, which means just like with Marines 2.0 the best stuff in the necron codex will just get better and the worst stuff will say pointless.
Since Marines 2.0 people can't stop bringing it up that you can take a random assortment of Marine units and have a viable list against anybody. So getting the "Marine 2.0 treatment" seems to me like that's what you want for your army.
Yes, I am very happy with the love the Necrons are getting. I even bought Indomitus, sold off the Marines and can't wait to start my first Necron army .
I fear the Eldar getting new models as my Eldar army was a commision (can't paint all that stuff myself, my Orks asked my undivided painting attention). So when they get news models I'm not only going to buy the new models but also have to get them painted again, which my wallet would not be happy about .
I'm lucky enough that I don't care much for the rules, I'm happy moving my models around, but that could be partly due to the fact that I don't have Marine players in my playing group. I can imagine have a different opinion if your regular opponents play Marines.
the_scotsman wrote: Unfortunately, given what we've seen from necron statline improvements vs blanket rule improvements, they're taking a "marines 2.0" approach to improving Necrons, not a "marines 3.0" approach of actually doing a deep dive on the statlines and addressing core inefficiencies. They're getting some improvements mostly in the realms of melee damage and anti tank which is direly needed but the biggest boosts are going to come from Resurrection Protocols and Doctrines, which means just like with Marines 2.0 the best stuff in the necron codex will just get better and the worst stuff will say pointless.
Since Marines 2.0 people can't stop bringing it up that you can take a random assortment of Marine units and have a viable list against anybody. So getting the "Marine 2.0 treatment" seems to me like that's what you want for your army.
Those people are wrong, and those statements are hyperbolic no matter what faction people are talking about. Marines 2.0 made units like Vindicators, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Assault Marines, Hammernators etc more tolerable, but they didn't make them internally useful when considered against other options right there in the same book.
Sure, I COULD take a unit of hammernators post-2.0 and conceivably not feel gakky about it, thanks to shock assault, +2" charge chaplain prayer, transhuman phys etc. But I could also take a smashcaptain in their place and he'd be infinitely cheaper, more reliable, and better at his job.
What these kinds of units needed is what they got: in depth core statline improvements.
The SS rework and W3 addressed hammernators' weak spot to ap-1 weaponry. The powerfist and heavy flamer rework additionally made tactical terminators a far more viable option. The multimelta rework massively aided the usefulness of attack bikes. AP-1 chainswords and W2 firstborns greatly improved assault marines.
These are the kinds of improvements that these underperforming units actually needed. Quick fix blanket army wide rules can conceivably improve the situation of underperforming units as compared to other codexes, but it does nothing to address internal balance.
the_scotsman wrote: Unfortunately, given what we've seen from necron statline improvements vs blanket rule improvements, they're taking a "marines 2.0" approach to improving Necrons, not a "marines 3.0" approach of actually doing a deep dive on the statlines and addressing core inefficiencies. They're getting some improvements mostly in the realms of melee damage and anti tank which is direly needed but the biggest boosts are going to come from Resurrection Protocols and Doctrines, which means just like with Marines 2.0 the best stuff in the necron codex will just get better and the worst stuff will say pointless.
Since Marines 2.0 people can't stop bringing it up that you can take a random assortment of Marine units and have a viable list against anybody. So getting the "Marine 2.0 treatment" seems to me like that's what you want for your army.
Those people are wrong, and those statements are hyperbolic no matter what faction people are talking about. Marines 2.0 made units like Vindicators, Land Speeders, Attack Bikes, Assault Marines, Hammernators etc more tolerable, but they didn't make them internally useful when considered against other options right there in the same book.
Sure, I COULD take a unit of hammernators post-2.0 and conceivably not feel gakky about it, thanks to shock assault, +2" charge chaplain prayer, transhuman phys etc. But I could also take a smashcaptain in their place and he'd be infinitely cheaper, more reliable, and better at his job.
What these kinds of units needed is what they got: in depth core statline improvements.
The SS rework and W3 addressed hammernators' weak spot to ap-1 weaponry. The powerfist and heavy flamer rework additionally made tactical terminators a far more viable option. The multimelta rework massively aided the usefulness of attack bikes. AP-1 chainswords and W2 firstborns greatly improved assault marines.
These are the kinds of improvements that these underperforming units actually needed. Quick fix blanket army wide rules can conceivably improve the situation of underperforming units as compared to other codexes, but it does nothing to address internal balance.
ok, can you take this to one of the many many many space Marine whine threads that litter these fourms and elt this thread be used to discuss all the awesome new necron stuff?
On a "positive for Necrons" note BTW, destroyers could be pretty good, given their innate re-roll 1s, and their HQ's wound re-roll aura.
-Ňecrontyr- wrote: Also saw them reference a Lokhust Lord; but admittedly that could just be what Destroyer Lords have become
Possibly, but I'd hope they'd take the opportunity to sort out the stupid equipment loadout on the old Destroyer (now Lokhust Destroyer) Lord. Having a unit that can buff a ranged unit be a melee beatstick - or as much of a beatstick as Necrons were allowed - makes no sense and makes even less sense now we have the Skorpekh Lord.
ok, can you take this to one of the many many many space Marine whine threads that litter these fourms and elt this thread be used to discuss all the awesome new necron stuff?
On a "positive for Necrons" note BTW, destroyers could be pretty good, given their innate re-roll 1s, and their HQ's wound re-roll aura.
It is worth pointing out: This is exactly how destroyers and destroyer lords work right now. This is not a rules change.
From my experience with playing against Skorpekhs, they do solid damage but lack a delivery mechanism or workable defenses. They're extremely easy to just shoot before they get to you.
If the new monolith is good though, they could be useful as you can teleport those bad dudes in.
), but I'm not nearly as keen on the new Crypteks, and the rules previewed for most of our stuff is pretty meh. So it will all come down to the codex and how well they rewrote 
rangers and their 
