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BrianDavion wrote: itg does when you have to hijack literally every post on the fourm.
Then shouldn't the prevalence of these posts from a variety of different posters and all linked to a variety of even vaguely related topics tell you this problem is approaching some form of critical mass?
Not necessarily at all. Indeed I think its more a case of negativity attracting negativity. Often as not many of the most negative posts come from people who have either moved onto other hobbies/games or who are sharing the negativity so much that it feels like a large number of users when its just a few.
To kind of present some thinking on how negative elements, esp online, when repeated over and over can reinforce themselves and twist a persons perceptions. The reverse is, thankfully, also true in that positive reinforcement also works.
"Ignore the problems and keep funneling money in support of GW's bad decision making, and they won't exist!"
Brilliant. There's a difference between justifiable positivity and outright self-delusion/denial.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/14 21:51:21
Not necessarily at all. Indeed I think its more a case of negativity attracting negativity.
If you go back through my history, you will find that I have been a defender of 40K and GW for a long, long time.
Similar boat here. Most of my post history through 8th was largely positive, and I've spent more than my fair share of time defending GW at times over the years. There's also plenty of cases where people are upset about something subjective and trying to make it objective. In this case though, I think it's actually fair to say Marines have had a years long release cycle in the face of armies like Drukari only LOSING units at every release since 5th ed.
So it's all well and good to be optimistic about the Necron release (and clearly on some level I am because, as I said, I got mine out of mothballs), but I still think it's too early to make the call. We really need to see what they do in the book. So far every marine release has looked rock solid as far as the rules go. Certain of them have (imo) been unfairly labeled OP, but I would argue that all of them have strong rules and utility from what we've seen. On the Necron side it's not as clear cut. The Plasmancer for example, looks confusingly bad, and the Reanimation Stalker - don't even get me started. Almost every one of the new units is a "wait and see" imo, which doesn't mean it's automatically negative, but after the long wait 'crons have had, it's a little disappointing that so much of it appears "meh" ....
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
BrianDavion wrote: itg does when you have to hijack literally every post on the fourm.
Then shouldn't the prevalence of these posts from a variety of different posters and all linked to a variety of even vaguely related topics tell you this problem is approaching some form of critical mass?
Not necessarily at all. Indeed I think its more a case of negativity attracting negativity. Often as not many of the most negative posts come from people who have either moved onto other hobbies/games or who are sharing the negativity so much that it feels like a large number of users when its just a few.
To kind of present some thinking on how negative elements, esp online, when repeated over and over can reinforce themselves and twist a persons perceptions. The reverse is, thankfully, also true in that positive reinforcement also works.
"Ignore the problems and keep funneling money in support of GW's bad decision making, and they won't exist!"
Brilliant. There's a difference between justifiable positivity and outright self-delusion/denial.
"Bad decision making"...
Yes, because 1600% stock price increase in 5 years, out performing Amazon, and being the FTSE best performer... Are all symptoms of bad decisions...?
They're clearly in need of your marketing genius and business acumen. For the sake of the hobby industry, and mankind as a whole you need to get your CV in to them now so they can correct the course before it's too late!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 22:46:05
BrianDavion wrote: itg does when you have to hijack literally every post on the fourm.
Then shouldn't the prevalence of these posts from a variety of different posters and all linked to a variety of even vaguely related topics tell you this problem is approaching some form of critical mass?
Not necessarily at all. Indeed I think its more a case of negativity attracting negativity. Often as not many of the most negative posts come from people who have either moved onto other hobbies/games or who are sharing the negativity so much that it feels like a large number of users when its just a few.
To kind of present some thinking on how negative elements, esp online, when repeated over and over can reinforce themselves and twist a persons perceptions. The reverse is, thankfully, also true in that positive reinforcement also works.
"Ignore the problems and keep funneling money in support of GW's bad decision making, and they won't exist!"
Brilliant. There's a difference between justifiable positivity and outright self-delusion/denial.
"Bad decision making"...
Yes, because 1600% stock price increase in 5 years, out performing Amazon, and being the FTSE best performer... Are all symptoms of bad decisions...?
They're clearly in need of your marketing genius and business acumen. For the sake of the hobby industry, and mankind as a whole you need to get your CV in to them now so they can correct the course before it's too late!
There's a particularly dark observation that could be made regarding the over-valuation of stock prices in measurement of success over . . . other things. Product longevity. . . community health. . . world affairs. . .
BrianDavion wrote: itg does when you have to hijack literally every post on the fourm.
Then shouldn't the prevalence of these posts from a variety of different posters and all linked to a variety of even vaguely related topics tell you this problem is approaching some form of critical mass?
Not necessarily at all. Indeed I think its more a case of negativity attracting negativity. Often as not many of the most negative posts come from people who have either moved onto other hobbies/games or who are sharing the negativity so much that it feels like a large number of users when its just a few.
To kind of present some thinking on how negative elements, esp online, when repeated over and over can reinforce themselves and twist a persons perceptions. The reverse is, thankfully, also true in that positive reinforcement also works.
"Ignore the problems and keep funneling money in support of GW's bad decision making, and they won't exist!"
Brilliant. There's a difference between justifiable positivity and outright self-delusion/denial.
"Bad decision making"...
Yes, because 1600% stock price increase in 5 years, out performing Amazon, and being the FTSE best performer... Are all symptoms of bad decisions...?
They're clearly in need of your marketing genius and business acumen. For the sake of the hobby industry, and mankind as a whole you need to get your CV in to them now so they can correct the course before it's too late!
There's a particularly dark observation that could be made regarding the over-valuation of stock prices in measurement of success over . . . other things. Product longevity. . . community health. . . world affairs. . .
I've been in the hobby close to 25 years, and I don't think the hobby has ever been in a better state. Gorgeous models, frequent releases, access has never been easier, Henry Cavill painting, battle reports have improved in quality hugely on YouTube, community driven painting tutorials and modelling guides have never been better.
In the last five years I've seen Warhammer evolve from being seen as a nerdy basement dweller geek hobby, to a slightly less nerdy basement dwelling geek hobby. Unprecedented!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 23:06:13
BrianDavion wrote: itg does when you have to hijack literally every post on the fourm.
Then shouldn't the prevalence of these posts from a variety of different posters and all linked to a variety of even vaguely related topics tell you this problem is approaching some form of critical mass?
Not necessarily at all. Indeed I think its more a case of negativity attracting negativity. Often as not many of the most negative posts come from people who have either moved onto other hobbies/games or who are sharing the negativity so much that it feels like a large number of users when its just a few.
To kind of present some thinking on how negative elements, esp online, when repeated over and over can reinforce themselves and twist a persons perceptions. The reverse is, thankfully, also true in that positive reinforcement also works.
"Ignore the problems and keep funneling money in support of GW's bad decision making, and they won't exist!"
Brilliant. There's a difference between justifiable positivity and outright self-delusion/denial.
"Bad decision making"...
Yes, because 1600% stock price increase in 5 years, out performing Amazon, and being the FTSE best performer... Are all symptoms of bad decisions...?
They're clearly in need of your marketing genius and business acumen. For the sake of the hobby industry, and mankind as a whole you need to get your CV in to them now so they can correct the course before it's too late!
There's a particularly dark observation that could be made regarding the over-valuation of stock prices in measurement of success over . . . other things. Product longevity. . . community health. . . world affairs. . .
I've been in the hobby close to 25 years. . .
Same. But while I admit the hobby itself is doing gangbusters, I can't think of a time when the faction balance was in a worse state from a trooper-to-trooper perspective. You must have played 2nd Ed. Do you remember when Aspect Warriors didn't crumple like paper against Marines? I think it's awful, and Marines are my primary army.
BrianDavion wrote: itg does when you have to hijack literally every post on the fourm.
Then shouldn't the prevalence of these posts from a variety of different posters and all linked to a variety of even vaguely related topics tell you this problem is approaching some form of critical mass?
Not necessarily at all. Indeed I think its more a case of negativity attracting negativity. Often as not many of the most negative posts come from people who have either moved onto other hobbies/games or who are sharing the negativity so much that it feels like a large number of users when its just a few.
To kind of present some thinking on how negative elements, esp online, when repeated over and over can reinforce themselves and twist a persons perceptions. The reverse is, thankfully, also true in that positive reinforcement also works.
"Ignore the problems and keep funneling money in support of GW's bad decision making, and they won't exist!"
Brilliant. There's a difference between justifiable positivity and outright self-delusion/denial.
"Bad decision making"...
Yes, because 1600% stock price increase in 5 years, out performing Amazon, and being the FTSE best performer... Are all symptoms of bad decisions...?
They're clearly in need of your marketing genius and business acumen. For the sake of the hobby industry, and mankind as a whole you need to get your CV in to them now so they can correct the course before it's too late!
There's a particularly dark observation that could be made regarding the over-valuation of stock prices in measurement of success over . . . other things. Product longevity. . . community health. . . world affairs. . .
I've been in the hobby close to 25 years. . .
Same. But while I admit the hobby itself is doing gangbusters, I can't think of a time when the faction balance was in a worse state from a trooper-to-trooper perspective. You must have played 2nd Ed. Do you remember when Aspect Warriors didn't crumple like paper against Marines? I think it's awful, and Marines are my primary army.
Prior to Marine 2.0 things were pretty ok imo. There were some bumps along the way but things were consistently getting better.
Certainly wouldn't call it the worst it has been in X years.
Insectum7 wrote: Same. But while I admit the hobby itself is doing gangbusters, I can't think of a time when the faction balance was in a worse state from a trooper-to-trooper perspective. You must have played 2nd Ed. Do you remember when Aspect Warriors didn't crumple like paper against Marines? I think it's awful, and Marines are my primary army.
Yeah, I remember that. Oh dear crap do I remember that. My third game ever was way back in 3rd Edition, as Space Marines against the Eldar, and they utterly took me apart using rules they'd seemingly pulled out of their asses. Dark Reapers get that fire volume with that AP rating?! Howling Banshees ignore my armor and always strike first even if I was in cover?! T8 wraithlords literally can't be damaged by S4?! Wait, what to you mean you get to roll 2 and take the lower damage result with a Holofield, that means there's only a 1/9 chance of a damaging hit (Which you needed an S6 weapon to even have a chance of doing, mind) ever destroying one!
And most tellingly: You get to reroll *all* those dice because of your HQ?!
I still have this mild lingering irritation with them for that. They made my newbie self crap bricks.
Now, that confrontation would have gone more than a little differently, to the extent that it's kind of gut-wrenching.
There's a maxim that does the rounds at work, that... well... it sure as hell sounds like corporate buzz-speak, and to a degree, it is. But it works because people stick to the notion.
And that is - it doesn't matter how well you think you're doing. You can ALWAYS improve.
I would hope GW is aware of this and uses its astounding current position to better the hobby, and not just resting on its laurels - and fixing this Marine overload should be a part of that.
Previous experiences have shown that they're not one to just let the wheels spin by themselves, but I'm still concerned.
"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch
Ordana wrote: Prior to Marine 2.0 things were pretty ok imo. There were some bumps along the way but things were consistently getting better.
Certainly wouldn't call it the worst it has been in X years.
I agree that prior to 2.0, things were pretty good. 2.0 and the push to 9th has been rough though.
To clarify, I think the game itself is far better than 7th, for example. But the balance between faction core units is way, way off imo, and there are issues with the design space that are really irritating (lots of Imperial hover-tanks, for example). That's where my notion of "the worst" comes from.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 23:42:00
Ordana wrote: Prior to Marine 2.0 things were pretty ok imo. There were some bumps along the way but things were consistently getting better. Certainly wouldn't call it the worst it has been in X years.
I agree that prior to 2.0, things were pretty good. 2.0 and the push to 9th has been rough though.
To clarify, I think the game itself is far better than 7th, for example. But the balance between faction core units is way, way off imo, and there are issues with the design space that are really irritating (lots of Imperial hover-tanks, for example). That's where my notion of "the worst" comes from.
This has been my sentiment and source of great irritation and very vexing. Pre 2.0 was fairly balanced. Certainly some improvements/pt tweaks should have been made but with castellan and ynnari nerf, I would say that Marines needed to get their army traits on vehicles plus maybe bolter discipline and would have been very competitive with everyone else. Thus there being no army that was irredeemably bad where pt tweaks and an faq or two couldn't fix. Alas, it was not meant to be. Baby. Bath water. etc. etc.
Biggest problem would have still been soup. So not sure if that could have been done without 9th..
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/14 23:47:42
I wish you would actually moderate threads like this and keep them on topic instead of letting them devolve.
More on topic: I’m so optimistic that I am now a Necron player and happily painting up an army. Excited to see the updated codex and all the possibilities for the new units and resurrection protocol!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/15 01:12:05
Insectum7 wrote: Same. But while I admit the hobby itself is doing gangbusters, I can't think of a time when the faction balance was in a worse state from a trooper-to-trooper perspective. You must have played 2nd Ed. Do you remember when Aspect Warriors didn't crumple like paper against Marines? I think it's awful, and Marines are my primary army.
Yeah, I remember that. Oh dear crap do I remember that. My third game ever was way back in 3rd Edition, as Space Marines against the Eldar, and they utterly took me apart using rules they'd seemingly pulled out of their asses. Dark Reapers get that fire volume with that AP rating?! Howling Banshees ignore my armor and always strike first even if I was in cover?! T8 wraithlords literally can't be damaged by S4?! Wait, what to you mean you get to roll 2 and take the lower damage result with a Holofield, that means there's only a 1/9 chance of a damaging hit (Which you needed an S6 weapon to even have a chance of doing, mind) ever destroying one!
And most tellingly: You get to reroll *all* those dice because of your HQ?!
I still have this mild lingering irritation with them for that. They made my newbie self crap bricks.
Now, that confrontation would have gone more than a little differently, to the extent that it's kind of gut-wrenching.
And dont forget Baharroth Cry of the Wind charging a space marine squad all by himself and getting 21 hits and 15 wounds that ignore armor! And Rangers pinning squads down with special rules so they cant move or shoot!
Yes, because 1600% stock price increase in 5 years, out performing Amazon, and being the FTSE best performer... Are all symptoms of bad decisions...?
They're clearly in need of your marketing genius and business acumen. For the sake of the hobby industry, and mankind as a whole you need to get your CV in to them now so they can correct the course before it's too late!
Have you never seen a company temporarily increase its stock value at the cost of long-term growth?
Or seen a bubble?
Or heard of Enron?
I am always surprised when I see this kind of 'their stock is going up, so you have no grounds to criticize anything they do' sort of logic.
Quasistellar wrote: I wish you would actually moderate threads like this and keep them on topic instead of letting them devolve.
A post isn't off topic just because you disagree with the opinion it contains. The job of moderators is to keep the forum functioning, not to act as thought police.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see people being more positive about the hobby... but deleting dissenting opinions is not the way to get to that.
Quasistellar wrote: I wish you would actually moderate threads like this and keep them on topic instead of letting them devolve.
More on topic: I’m so optimistic that I am now a Necron player and happily painting up an army. Excited to see the updated codex and all the possibilities for the new units and resurrection protocol!
Negativity is still on topic in a thread about optimism. Bringing up how it is hard to be excited for Necrons new releases when they are compared to SM releases is on topic. You just want to delete post you don't personally like.
I am excited as a Necron player because of all of the new models and the fact that my beloved Monolith is getting a face lift and hopefully some new rules to go with it.
As a SM player I am happy that with the release of so many melee based Primaris I can finally play my Black Templars as Primaris.
As a player of 12 different armies I am not that happy with the state of the game and the non-stop deluge of SM releases for the better part of a year. It is hard for me to be excited about my new Necron toys because everything they have shown so far is trivial in the face of what SM got/are getting.
I am tired of the "Wait and see" excuse because the goal post never stops moving. Wait until the new codexs come out, wait until Chapter Approved comes out, wait until the new <End of edition book set> comes out. It never ends and my 20+ years of GW experience has taught me that waiting is a fools game but at the same time it is all I can do because even when I don't buy first party models or give GW money it doesn't make a difference.
Have you never seen a company temporarily increase its stock value at the cost of long-term growth?
Or seen a bubble?
Or heard of Enron?
I am always surprised when I see this kind of 'their stock is going up, so you have no grounds to criticize anything they do' sort of logic.
And if it were just their stock price going up, then that might be a valid concern. But it's not. You don't have to look too far online to see that overall, GW is in a pretty good place right now. Whether or not you are happy with the state of their rules, the difference in the level of enthusiasm right now for the product they are releasing, compared to where things were at in the midst of the Kirby era, is pretty clear.
By and large, people like what GW is doing, and that is being reflected in their stock price.
Well apparently White Dwarf just leaked new rules on Reanimation protocols. Apparently Necrons get to roll to come back after every time a unit shoots at them, instead of at the end of the turn like they do now. So apparently we all need to sell our Marine models on ebay and start building and collecting Necrons. And no I am not making this up, it is true. See Chapter Master Valrak's Youtube video. *drops the mic*
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 01:40:30
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Alwrath wrote: Well apparently White Dwarf just leaked new rules on Reanimation protocols. Apparently Necrons get to roll to come back after every time a unit shoots at them, instead of at the end of the turn like they do now. So apparently we all need to sell our Marine models on ebay and start building and collecting Necrons. And no I am not making this up, it is true. See Chapter Master Valrak's Youtube video. *drops the mic*
That still doesn't make them as good as SM frankly though it does go a LONG way towards making Necrons viable against them. All you need to do is focus fire enough to kill off the squad which in this edition is not difficult. Consider that 1/3 of your casualties is going to be coming back every time you are shot at it RP is still on a 5+. Essentially if you are targeting a 20 man strong blob of Necron warriors you just need to be able to hit them with enough to kill 30ish warriors accounting for multiple squads firing at them.
On the flip side if you have 1 warriors left after a round of shooting without some changes to the rule you can end up bringing back the other 19 if you roll well enough.
Alwrath wrote: Well apparently White Dwarf just leaked new rules on Reanimation protocols. Apparently Necrons get to roll to come back after every time a unit shoots at them, instead of at the end of the turn like they do now. So apparently we all need to sell our Marine models on ebay and start building and collecting Necrons. And no I am not making this up, it is true. See Chapter Master Valrak's Youtube video. *drops the mic*
That still doesn't make them as good as SM frankly though it does go a LONG way towards making Necrons viable against them. All you need to do is focus fire enough to kill off the squad which in this edition is not difficult. Consider that 1/3 of your casualties is going to be coming back every time you are shot at it RP is still on a 5+. Essentially if you are targeting a 20 man strong blob of Necron warriors you just need to be able to hit them with enough to kill 30ish warriors accounting for multiple squads firing at them.
On the flip side if you have 1 warriors left after a round of shooting without some changes to the rule you can end up bringing back the other 19 if you roll well enough.
Leave a couple out of LOS. I'm picturing a ruin where 10-15 are in the Ruin, and the other bunch are behind it. The opponent needs a unit that can kill the last visible models, plus all the models out of LOS to wipe the unit.
Alwrath wrote: And dont forget Baharroth Cry of the Wind charging a space marine squad all by himself and getting 21 hits and 15 wounds that ignore armor! And Rangers pinning squads down with special rules so they cant move or shoot!
Gaaaagh, I remembered Baharroth; I forgot about the rangers and their cover save!
The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)
This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.
Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)
This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.
Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck
Argive wrote: The issue with current RP is that if you just focus fire and delete the whole unit you didin't realy have a problem. (Until you leave that one destroyer alive on one wound)
This isin't much different and is basically a better FNP/shield drone shrug by the looks of it.
Im sure a unit of agressors or centurions pooping out a mountain of bolter fire wont have a problem deleting such a unit in one go..
Whats funny is the most annoying squad to deal with this special rule is probably a humble unit of 20 Necron Warriors. Anyone care to do mathhammer to take it out with 1 unit shooting at them at a time with reanimation right after? lulz... good luck
I think you are grossly over estimating how powerful that will be. Let us walk though it with limited information and making some assumptions.
Let us assume that RP works the way that we assume it does and that it is still on a 5+.
Let us use a simple S4 -1AP weapon that is so standard on marines in 9th.
10 Marines get 14 hits, 7 wounds, 5 dead warriors. Let's say that 2 get back up so you are left with 3 dead. Another squad of marines shoots, kills the same amount but then 4 get back up leaving you with just 4 dead warriors. That is insanely durable right?
Those same two squads of marines shooting at Plague Marines is 28 hits, 9 wounds, after saves you have roughly 3 dead Plague Marines. This is before Plague marines go to the two wounds that we know they are getting when their codex gets updated.
So really, Warriors are roughly as tough as Plague Marines if we assume all of these things to be true. The only difference is that RP activates each turn every time they are shot. Focus fire is going to be incredibly important against Necrons because you NEED to make sure that you remove that unit from the table. So yeah, a 20 man Warrior group is going to be tough, but isn't that exactly what they are supposed to be? Also, none of this math takes into account the doctrines or numerous rerolls that marines get in spades.
Consider that the strongest that the new RP can be, if we assume this is the correct way to play it, is bringing back on average 6 warriors if you have a squad down to 1 warrior. More likely you are going to see it come into play on 10 man squads where the average if you are down to 1 man is going to be 3 bodies coming back.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 04:33:28
"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch 
Eldar- 4436 pts
rangers and their 