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Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

This is my camera, I've spent more on this than many people will spend on one 40K/AoS army*, and yet its got problems.




Sometimes the AF misses its mark or isn't fast enough to keep up.




Sometimes the lens has colour fringing (just look at all those greeny and purply fringes all over the place!)




Sometimes its not got enough ISO range to get a good shot in all conditions



Sometimes its operator is a twit

(thankfully I think I've deleted/lost all those photos!!!)



It's got issues! It's not perfect and one can see that even just with software updates its AF could be improved, its ISO algerithms polished, its overall performance enhanced. A few mb of code, less than most games get in a single patch, and my camera could work better. A few improvements at design and manufacture and it could work better. More sensors, better AF, faster processing. There are a slew of ways it could work better that would likely have little effect on its end price per unit. I can write pages on faults and failings of the camera, accessories, attachments, addons and more.

Every part of my setup has flaws and issues in its design and features. Things that manufacturers could improve on, adjust and fix. Both before and after sale.



However it also works great, fantastic even!









It's far more capable than its operator is half the time and has infinite potential if one is willing to put the time and effort in. To learn its weaknesses as much as its strengths, to work with those strengths. Indeed when one chooses to work with it its potential is astounding and far beyond me.

This doesn't make those problems go away, they are still there, they will still always happen. However its my choice on how I can react to those problems. I can let them dominate me, let them win. I can let them overwhelm me; throwing my hands in the air that unless the manufacturer improves the product its hopeless. That my potential is constrained and limited, restricted and prevented. Sure there are limits, sure there are constraints, but if I choose to focus on them in a negative way then that's going to taint me.

It's going to limit what I can do and what I can achieve. Perhaps sometimes those limits are too strong, they are too powerful and I have to consider what I do then. Do I give up and move onto something else; do I try something new; do I change manufactures and buy into a different line of equipment that gives me potential to do things that are otherwise impossible (or very hard) with other setups?




Well all hobbies are like that. All have their ups and their downs, its how one chooses to react to them and work with them that defines who we are and what we can achieve within our hobbies. The same is also true about how we conduct ourselves in public when interacting with others in the same hobby. Are we griping and complaining, bitter at the hobby and others at failings and problems. Choosing to focus on those negative aspects and to hold them up high as our main problem.
Are we focusing on the success stories, on when things are great and looking at the positive side of things. Choosing to share our success with others, our creations and our joy.

Or have we left the room, deciding that the problems outweigh the good and moving onto something else. Indeed are we in another room sharing our joy and optimising on something else.



Personally I think that the mental attitude and how we conduct and relate ourselves to our hobbies is very important. I think that when a person chooses to share the negative in abundance; when it becomes a prime part of their focus and how they talk with others, then they've hit a very low point. Misery loves misery and it will drag a person down far worse than anything else. It will reinforce your demoralising elements; shore up the problems; make them from surmountable hills into insurmountable mountains. What might be a minor annoyance at the start of the week, reinforced with the complaints of others and our own act of reinforcing our own by repetitive talking/typing of those thoughts, can turn them into huge issues by the end of the day, let alone the end of the week.

At the very same time reinforcing our own enjoyment and sharing that with others. Repeating describing and talking about what we enjoy, what we've achieved and what we are looking forward too. This will also have an impact on us and those around us. We've not ignored the problems; we've not overlooked them; we've not forgotten them. We have put them in their place to the side and chosen instead to reinforce our enjoyment and our achievements.


When we learn something we repeat it and what we repeat we learn.
If we repeat the negative we learn the negative; if we repeat the positive we learn the positive.

In my view a hobby is something to be enjoyed and shared, something to gain a sense of self worth and value. If I choose to repeat the negative then all I am doing is undermining myself; if I repeat and share the negative then I'm dragging others down too. All moving toward losing that sense of self worth, value and confidence.


So I'd encourage you to pause and think about how you choose to interact with your hobby as well. Are you focusing on the achievements and good side? Are you repeating the good, fun points. Are you helping yourself along and others when you share your enjoyment. The latest greatest battle (even if you lost); the latest conversion or paintwork; the latest book you read or bit of artwork you found. Heck maybe you draw or paint and you are sharing your creative work. However and whatever you do in whatever hobby I'd encourage you to be aware of what you share; how you talk; what you talk about.



*fun fact is the camera end is now worth less than most people would spend getting started with a new army.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 14:28:37


   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

So this is another "Thing are more expensive than GW, so shut up about the prices!" thread?

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So this is another "Thing are more expensive than GW, so shut up about the prices!" thread?


Did you read much beyond the first line? Cause that's the only line with price mentioned, and its purely there to give a sense of relativity in camera terms rather than in relation to models. Indeed hobby wise that's also the only one that distinctly compares models and cameras.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Nah bruh, look at what you're doing. You're nothing more than a white knight! Pure Stockholm syndrome! You're glorifying a substandard product and trying to make it a good thing. The fact that you have to do stuff at your end to make it's output anything more than barely functional proves that its a terrible product and that you are a paid shill for promoting it.you shouldn't have to do anything. It should be fully functional and faultless out of the box and anything less is just incompetence on their part and brown nosing on yours.

And in case you haven't noticed I am also being sarcastic. I actually fully agree with you on your post. The above however is the kind of discussion (and symptomatic of one or two infamous former posters here) you are likely to come up against when you try and imply anything about this hobby requires work on your end. There is a lot of entitlement and even more negativity in the hobby. We are dealing with rough limited systems. They can't hold much weight. There will always be problems. And whether folks want to accept it or not, accomodations and attitude will always be required. Having a positive attitude goes a long way. Misery loves company and while I'm.sure we all get a kick out of a vent every now and then, when your hobby is 'negativity', it's time to reassess.

Who you play with and how you play , and what 'game' you bring to your game counts for so much. More than a lot of people realise.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 16:43:57


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

I think that point about the particular people you spend time with is a very good point. Don't get me wrong, I'm weirdly addicted to Warhammer and like games, but I think my recent troubles with Warhammer (I haven't played since July 2019) are related to how I was approaching the hobby.

A couple of years ago someone had the very good idea of creating a local league so that people could get out of their comfort zones and play with people outside of their usual gaming groups. Where attending locally organized tournaments was a great idea, this seemed great too. The problem, as I think I understand it from my perspective, is that trying to organize a game with someone outside of my group every two or three weeks was very difficult, and tended to suck up what little spare time I had - my one night a week to rest being taken up by a 2-3 hour Warhammer game was exhausting. Where previously a game every week had kept my head on tight, I was developing an aversion.

In part, I think, it was that the game itself was wearing me down as there's aspects I was growing to loathe, but mostly I think having that social time coming out of my down-time where I usually didn't have to make new friends and put myself out there made it a net negative experience; which is unfortunate as everyone I played was a great guy. It's interesting how it's not just the people you play with, but the context makes a difference.

   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut





In Town

I mean, while I agree with the point being made, this is such a weird flex of a topic.


[ Mordian 183rd ] - an ongoing Imperial Guard story with crayon drawings!
[ "I can't believe it's not Dakka!" ] - a buttery painting and crafting blog
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
I mean, while I agree with the point being made, this is such a weird flex of a topic.


Not really, if I'd used 40K or AoS or any wargame as a foundation it would likely have got sidetracked nitpicking apart the specific balance examples or issues of the game. So I picked a different hobby to nightlight the point. The idea that how you engage with, talk and conduct yourself in relation to your hobby can directly affect your enjoyment and perception is the same no matter if its wargames; photography; sports; knitting; painting; whatever. If you are always repeating negative elements; always focusing on negative issues and problems and often complaining etc.... Then its repeating those issues over and over; its learning and reinforcing them and making them a greater factor. When you do this online or in a living real group you can drag the group down around you - creating a self fulfilling air of negativity. Which in the end is self defeating because it will sap your enjoyment of the hobby out of you faster than anything else.

Instead the proposition that you don't ignore the negative, but that you choose to focus on the positive and reinforce it can in turn have a much more positive impact on your own enjoyment and engagement with a hobby.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Overread 792037 10926824 wrote:
Instead the proposition that you don't ignore the negative, but that you choose to focus on the positive and reinforce it can in turn have a much more positive impact on your own enjoyment and engagement with a hobby.


Also important, at least to me, is the notion that you should be willing to put in a bit of work at your end to smooth the edges. I'm sure there's things you do with that camera of yours to counter the problems you face (I know bugger all about photography by the way) without getting all.doen in the dumps or toxic about it. To me, this hobby is no different. Plus it helps if you actively invest iny your community as well as your 'game'.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 19:40:09


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Deadnight wrote:
Overread 792037 10926824 wrote:
Instead the proposition that you don't ignore the negative, but that you choose to focus on the positive and reinforce it can in turn have a much more positive impact on your own enjoyment and engagement with a hobby.


Also important, at least to me, is the notion that you should be willing to put in a bit of work at your end to smooth the edges. I'm sure there's things you do with that camera of yours to counter the problems you face (I know bugger all about photography by the way) without getting all.doen in the dumps or toxic about it. To me, this hobby is no different. Plus it helps if you actively invest iny your community as well as your 'game'.


Indeed, being aware of the issues isn't a bad thing; its when they are held up as insurmountable barriers and become the focus of a persons attitude and interaction within a community which is when it becomes an issue. Both for the person and the community. Some of it is also about accepting the problems; knowing they are there and that you can't resolve or change or fix them ,but work with them, avoid the issues; use methods to curtail and limit their impact etc....

And yes being active in your community helps, but I'd got a stage further and say that its positive help in your community that helps. Otherwise if you interact in a negative way you either get booted/ignored or you develop a group of negatives around you which takes away from the fun. Scary thing is you won't realise its happening until you're so far down that its very hard to dig your way out.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Overread wrote:

Scary thing is you won't realise its happening until you're so far down that its very hard to dig your way out.


Too yrue.

Sadly overread, I speak from experience. I've been down that rabbit hole of toxicity before. My only recourse in the end was to walk away from the hobby I loved, the people I called 'friends' (sadly, they really weren't, and I don't say that out of meanness - they were fine folks, but just.. I just had to get away) and basically find and reinvent myself. Which is a very fancy way of saying I needed a break, and I needed to reach out and build other friendships outside of the gaming fishbowl.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 20:15:51


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster




I am a moderately good player.

I am a moderately good painter.

I like to think I have a little skill converting.

Some things annoy me sometimes, but I ENJOY my hobby.

The current annoyance is how fragile the AoS spirit hosts are. Darn thing won't stick tonight. Never mind. It will all be fine in a couple of days when I try again.

Sure there's lots wrong with "The Hobby" TM. *My* hobby is mostly fine.
   
Made in us
Napoleonics Obsesser




MN

Yeah, sometimes we all just get a little too into our own heads. We are not negotiating nuclear disarmament, curing COVID, or saving people's lives in 40K. I think we can relax a bit about miniature wargaming.

Do you like Free Wargames?
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Maybe you should just go have fun with your photography instead of making twee comparisons in service to GW apologism then.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 21:36:33



 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

If you're dismissing it as 'apologism', you've missed the point.

You're quite clearly unhappy with the current state of 40K. Your reasons for being unhappy are quite likely justified. But being justified doesn't actually make them productive, or conducive to having a hobby that you enjoy.

You can choose to focus on the parts of the hobby that make you unhappy, or you can choose to focus on the parts that you enjoy. The latter is not 'apologism'... it's just choosing to not waste your time being unhappy.

 
   
Made in gb
Twisting Tzeentch Horror






 Overread wrote:

So I'd encourage you to pause and think about how you choose to interact with your hobby as well. Are you focusing on the achievements and good side? Are you repeating the good, fun points. Are you helping yourself along and others when you share your enjoyment. The latest greatest battle (even if you lost); the latest conversion or paintwork; the latest book you read or bit of artwork you found. Heck maybe you draw or paint and you are sharing your creative work. However and whatever you do in whatever hobby I'd encourage you to be aware of what you share; how you talk; what you talk about.


What a greatly insightful post my friend.

I find it depressingly ironic just how clearly some people missed your point here, and I think that this thread in itself already demonstrates your point wonderfully.


Anyone doing a hobby should try to be questioning of what they do it for. Your example here of photography is perfect- The process of working through and figuring out how to overcome some of the negatives whilst staying focused on the positives of the hobby is the most rewarding part. By shifting your focus from the bad things, you enjoyed the hobby far more. People, take this example. Think about it. Overreads post here is encouragement to try and help everybody to enjoy their hobby more. And trust me, I did this a while back, and it worked.
It's not that this post is an attack on this forum, and therefore it definitely shouldn't be taken as one: it's clearly nothing more than a reminder to be insightful and honest about what makes you happy by doing this hobby: distancing yourself from the toxic negative feedback loops that form everywhere, not just in 40k, will make you not only enjoy indulging yourself in hobby more, but make you a happier person.

Some of what we've seen in 40k recently has been disappointing in terms of balance/gameplay. Definitely. But loads else has been awesome! A great new edition, free of many of the plights of the last one (and overall far smoother), an amazing range for the necrons, a crazily successful release, some tournaments going ahead under covid guidelines. There's so many more positives to the changes that need to be talked about more, and really, so much about change itself that should really be looked at from a different perspective. It'll make you a happier person. Again, thank you overread for your words.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/14 23:22:29


 insaniak wrote:

You can choose to focus on the parts of a hobby that make you unhappy, or you can choose to focus on the parts that you enjoy.
 
   
Made in us
Courageous Questing Knight





Philadelphia

It sounds like a lot of things are going wrong outside of nerds painting and playing with toys - maybe it's time to take a break or go on vacation

I picked up my first real camera and I'd like to take it to Yellowstone this year. I've recently mostly quit by hobby of 6 years where I rode a bicycle 100~ miles a week in training. Eh it sucks giving it up but I can always revisit a hobby that has negative features.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 23:23:32


   
Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

Green and purple "fringing" on your shots is just chromatic aberration, and is much reduced with better lenses. It's less of an issue on a prime lens than a zoom.


My old film camera (SLR) gave me slightly better images than my more modern digital SLR - mostly down to me using more prime lenses than zoom lenses.

For some things, you just can't beat the speed of a good prime lens.

I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

insaniak wrote:If you're dismissing it as 'apologism', you've missed the point.

You're quite clearly unhappy with the current state of 40K. Your reasons for being unhappy are quite likely justified. But being justified doesn't actually make them productive, or conducive to having a hobby that you enjoy.

You can choose to focus on the parts of the hobby that make you unhappy, or you can choose to focus on the parts that you enjoy. The latter is not 'apologism'... it's just choosing to not waste your time being unhappy.


Sadly, as noted earlier, once a person is in the darkplace and once they have allowed themselve and others to drag them down, it can be very hard to see the problem and thus to get out. The thing is they aren't posting lies, perhaps exaggerations, but not lies. The problems are there and they are real, the issue is the focusing upon them; the repetition of the problems as problems over and over. The drowning of their focus and thoughts and attitude in the problems. When this is reinforced by portions of a community it self perpetuates.

So yep its easy to see people who clearly need to pause and step back, but its very hard for those people to see it in themselves.

chromedog wrote:Green and purple "fringing" on your shots is just chromatic aberration, and is much reduced with better lenses. It's less of an issue on a prime lens than a zoom.


My old film camera (SLR) gave me slightly better images than my more modern digital SLR - mostly down to me using more prime lenses than zoom lenses.

For some things, you just can't beat the speed of a good prime lens.



Oh aye each of the issues I posted a photo for has resolutions; even the fringing photo can be fixed by use of the reduction in chromatic aberration tools in lightroom.
The one I showed above is actually already taken on a prime lens, the MPE 65mm which is technically the best (only) lens that does 5 times life size. The shot shows the scales that make up the wing covering of a moth. There are better setups, they mostly require very high end primes or microscope optics and a custom combination of bits to get the same magnification. Canon just hasn't updated the MPE in years and years so lens tech has moved on somewhat.

The same is true in most other hobbies. There are work arounds, barriers, blocks, solutions etc... Being aware of and finding solutions and ways to mitigate/overcome the problems is healthy and good. It's part of taking a hobby further and delving into it. The trap is some people hit a wall and can't find a way around an issue, they then repeat this over and over making it not just an opinion but fact to them. It also increases the negative association as they talk about it more and more; it forms a bedrock of their impressions.
You can easily see it with "inset name of army is rubbish at present" people. They want to enjoy the army, they want to play with it, but defeats and a lack of resolution and repetition of the "fact" means that they've helped destroy their own chances are digging their way out of the pit and destroyed their own interest.

   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







 insaniak wrote:
If you're dismissing it as 'apologism', you've missed the point.

You're quite clearly unhappy with the current state of 40K. Your reasons for being unhappy are quite likely justified. But being justified doesn't actually make them productive, or conducive to having a hobby that you enjoy.

You can choose to focus on the parts of the hobby that make you unhappy, or you can choose to focus on the parts that you enjoy. The latter is not 'apologism'... it's just choosing to not waste your time being unhappy.


Yep, that's why I just stick to painting GW stuff that I
like the look of and playing other games Why exist
in misery?

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy






Deadnight wrote:
Also important, at least to me, is the notion that you should be willing to put in a bit of work at your end to smooth the edges.


I agree so much with that, and I'd argue that it is way more easier than for most other hobbies. I mean, you'd have a hard time teraing your camera appart and change pieces, re-engrave circuits to make it like you want, but a wargame is an open engine that you can really easily tune up to your liking. From my subjective perspective, TT gaming (except CCG) started as a DIY hobby even before DIY was coined, and that include first and formost the rules. But skimming the internet, it feels like it became a consumption product like any other and that most players can't even conceive the idea to use house material / non company endorsed one. But that may be the internet lense that give me that impression. This idea makes me way more sad than any GW antics.

On this last subject, I'd also like to point out that genuily loving something doesn't prevent you to criticize it. On the contrary, I actually think that the idea of just accepting everything as delivered to you (because vote with your wallet) is a as much passive and noxious stance that the contrary. Reasonable criticism is not only sane but indispensable to the health of a hobby. And let's be honnest, GW is criticizable, I mean what human made thing isn't?

But when your hobby consists mostly of raging and not even directed to the people that really have a say in it, when you still play and every game leaves a sour taste in your mouth, when you almost come to feel hate for the company producing your hobby like some seems to feel (but then again, internet...). Yeah, you're hurting yourself and the hobby you used to love, so just take a break.

On the other hand I realize it is easy to say for someone for who the hobby is just a side thing. It must be hard when you've invested so much into something, and I don't speak only of money or time, but how much you've invested of yourself. At some point, it becomes part of who you are, one of the adjective that defines you. Sometime the main one. It's something you spend a lot of time thinking about, that concurs to your self esteem, that you share with the people you hang out with. Sometime the only reason why you hang out with them. So breaking up from that is breaking up from a part of you and a community, and it rarely feels good at first. But passing some time, it (may) get better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/17 09:29:12


 
   
Made in us
Napoleonics Obsesser




MN

 IronSlug wrote:
Deadnight wrote:
Also important, at least to me, is the notion that you should be willing to put in a bit of work at your end to smooth the edges.


I agree so much with that, and I'd argue that it is way more easier than for most other hobbies. I mean, you'd have a hard time teraing your camera appart and change pieces, re-engrave circuits to make it like you want, but a wargame is an open engine that you can really easily tune up to your liking. From my subjective perspective, TT gaming (except CCG) started as a DIY hobby even before DIY was coined, and that include first and formost the rules. But skimming the internet, it feels like it became a consumption product like any other and that most players can't even conceive the idea to use house material / non company endorsed one. But that may be the internet lense that give me that impression. This idea makes me way more sad than any GW antics.



Just wanted to chop this part out, because you are speaking the truth. By its nature, wargaming SHOULD be a collaborative experience. A group puts together the table, armies, scenarios, and the rules that apply to the game.

However, the focus on stand-alone, pick-up and play has been a sea change in how Wargaming is viewed compared to the the early days where half the fun was "making it work" and looking okay-ish while doing it.

Do you like Free Wargames?
http://bloodandspectacles.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I don't think there's anything wrong with GW making the game so that it can work for random pick-up games and that can work and play to those strengths - things like the warcry setup cards which can let two people who are total strangers get started and playing very quicky, these are great things.

I think that perhaps, esp in the USA, there's a tendency for local clubs to get a bit hyper focused on the competitive. This isn't limited to 40K, I've been to Magic the Gathering clubs that were pretty lax and open (these were more bolted onto gaming clubs in general) and I've been to those where the whole evening is a mini-tournament each week. Fun if you win, not really so much fun if you don't.

In the end I think its a point of group stagnation that can occur within play groups. You get a group starting; they get into competitive and they all team up and focus on it. Because the group isn't constantly getting new blood, the group advances their game hwich can in turn make it harder for newblood to get in at the ground level. Thus reinforcing the attitude locally and the styles of game.

   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy






 Overread wrote:
I don't think there's anything wrong with GW making the game so that it can work for random pick-up games and that can work and play to those strengths - things like the warcry setup cards which can let two people who are total strangers get started and playing very quicky, these are great things.


Oh this is one thing I would absolutely not blame GW for, it has a long history of promoting DYI. And is indeed good things for games between strangers, and even when you have a good group it can be fun to go out of your confort zone and play with other people at a convention or such. No, what is sad is when even amongst friend, it becomes the only way to play.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 10:29:51


 
   
Made in au
Pustulating Plague Priest




After seeing the pic of your camera I expected this thread to be about back pain.

There’s a difference between having a hobby and being a narcissist.  
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Lincoln, UK

Wargaming companies provide the tools for you to make a hobby. People get stressed when they try to follow the hype, that a company provides the entire experience.

Literary theory holds that there are three active participants in a book: the author, the text itself, and a reader who brings their own experiences, expectations and expertise to the reading.

Games are like that. You may want impressive models that are complex and detailed, or straightforward figures that are quick to paint. Out the box, or heavily converted?

You may want realistic colours and weathered tanks, or bright, clean paintjobs.

Balanced points matches or tricky "historical" scenarios?

Rules that support grim and gritty murderfests, heroic adventures and great deeds, or tense games of manoeuvre and counter-action?

Detailed and precise rules, or broad strokes?

Players who want a relaxed evening of throwing dice, drinking beer and playing with toys, or a tightly proscribed tournament-style game with a clear winner?

How can a company provide all that for you? Well, despite what they say, they can't.

Your whole hobby is your responsibility, not something GW can sell you in a box. It's unfair to expect them to, even if they encourage that thought. Stick to the published rules or make your own rules and rulings with your friends. Mix editions if you like. Use sculpts that suit your budget, time and preference.

As for criticism, companies die without it because they silently lose customers. It's vital to encourage feedback, both positive and negative. Neither should dominate though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 11:47:54


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

People do want to sell stuff in a box, and it seems like there's plenty of people out there that would like to buy stuff in boxes.

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Lincoln, UK

Missed the point there, my fine fellow gamer.

Until your opponent comes in a box with the minis, and rules are extracted directly from your brainwaves (and theirs), there will be discussion and compromise.

GW can do everything short of playing the game for you, and making you enjoy it. Sadly, those are the important bits. A hobby is more than the toys you dump on the table.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/18 16:44:24


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

Your point about GW requiring active player ownership of the Hobby in order to make it a playable game isn't missed. The thing is that there's a much larger hobby out there called 'board games' where people dig out a box, read the rules, and kinda get on with it just fine.

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Lincoln, UK

A good point, but I see board games differently. Wargames are far more generalist toolkits, more like RPGs than either community would care to admit. We make the playing landscape, we design and paint and name our armies. They are more personal to us. We tinker and house-rule, make our own campaigns and scenarios, in ways that we may be loath to do in other games.

Boardgames do something different - a streamlined, structured experience. Focus, clear victory conditions. Often less random, though not always. And there are always games that blur the lines - there's a spectrum rather than a blunt separation.

Saying that, I don't like generic wargames rules - there needs to be some focus on a style or a period. Limitations to grapple with, chrome to define exceptions.

Maybe the tournament scene is closer to the boardgame experience? Not meant in a negative way at all, just an observation. It provides a common and defined space to compete in, to determine a clear winner, rather than a sandbox to explore.

Maybe I'm completely out of touch with mainstream modern miniatures games, but I don't think so. I do think wargames have responded to boardgames in a positive way - I see campaigns in e.g. Too Fat Lardies games that are short with recognisable ladders to climb.

Very broadly, and very much for me, board game comes with a set of rules, boards and tokens that provide a defined experience and victory conditions. We may like and play the game, or dislike it and move on to another one.

For me, miniatures wargames give us army lists to build and paint a force, and rules mechanisms to simulate a conflict. I can choose how to carry out that conflict, as a scenario. If I dislike a rule, or ruleset, there are plenty more to choose from. Between me and my opponents, we build the game environment we want from those tools.

I agree that boardgames provide a game in a box, and that's a good thing. I play wargames for something more open. I feel that people become unhappy with miniatures wargames because they understand the potential, have invested many hours building an army, but that a ruleset, or opponent, or club scene, may not give them the experience they want.

What I'm saying is that rules will never perfectly match a gamer's expectations, and that we all need to make an effort to find opponents who share our views, or can compromise with us.

I totally understand how difficult that is. I also understand that's not what games companies want to tell you, and I see a move to more board-game-like experiences. The difference is the physical and semi-permanent nature of your army, something that exists outside any single game ruleset.

Maybe it's the army that's the single big difference - the hundreds of hours we all put into metal, resin and styrene models that will outlast any one set of rules? The ability to use 5jem in any game we like?

Does that make sense?

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/09/19 00:24:12


 
   
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I worry less about 'amount of money spent' than other things.

IMHO- any hobby or recreation can mutate into a self-destructive addiction.

I've watched guys drop a grand on a new 40k Army, and it never impact them negatively. They're just financially successful and can do as they please.

I've also seen adult males overdraft their account for a new model, then while sitting in their car- call their mother and ask for her to Paypal him some money so he can put gas in his car and afford groceries.

As far as the positive and negative of the hobby? Eh, I have "that one guy" that comes around here and there to complain in detail about everything GW does- but he "quit after third edition". I've never understood why something so 'terrible' has people still lingering around. Stockholm syndrome, I guess. Or just attention-seeking behavior manifested through whining.

I am also one to say that there's a time and a place to voice one's complaints about something- GW is not my friend or play-pal or generous benefactor. They're a business, and if I dislike something they've done or something they've made- I can, and sometimes will voice my disapproval.

As a practice- I try to always say something positive before I complain about something.

Just as much as someone who ALWAYS whines annoys me, I also loathe people who heap nothing but praise onto a company/product- and then try to gatekeep and attack anyone with a complaint- no matter how legitimate.


Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
 
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