https://www.atomicmassgames.com/special-announcement

November 16, 2020

Atomic Mass Games Takes Its First Steps Into The Star Wars Miniatures Games Galaxy
Development of Star Wars X-Wing, Star Wars Armada, and Star Wars Legion Moving from Fantasy Flight Games to Asmodee’s Miniatures Games-Focused Studio

SEATTLE, WA, November 16, 2020- In a strategic reorganization of its Star Wars miniatures titles, Asmodee is announcing today that oversight of its three Star Wars miniatures titles will be moving to their dedicated miniatures games studio, Atomic Mass Games.

Development of all future miniatures games will be handled by Atomic Mass as well. The move to a specialty studio positions Asmodee’s miniatures titles for even greater success in the future.

“Atomic Mass is committed to bringing people together through fun games, and Star Wars has been bringing people together through the power of myth and story for over 40 years,” Steve Horvath, Head of US Publishing, said. “Combining their talent with the strength of our current Star Wars games and the limitless possibilities of a galaxy far, far away is going to lead to incredible new experiences for tabletop gamers and Star Wars fans to enjoy.”

Simone Elliott, who has shepherded Fantasy Flight’s relationship with Lucasfilm Licensing since 2015, will lead Atomic Mass Games during this time of expansion as Head of Studio. Will Shick assumes primary creative oversight as Head of Product Development. Joining them will be key members of the teams involved in the creation and evolution of Fantasy Flight’s current Star Wars miniatures games, Star Wars X-Wing, Star Wars Legion, and Star Wars Armada.

Update:

https://www.atomicmassgames.com/starwars-qa

November 17, 2020

This Is Where the Fun Begins
Atomic Mass Games Launches Into the Galaxy of Star Wars Miniatures

Yesterday’s announcement that Atomic Mass Games (AMG) will be taking responsibility for the continued development of Star Wars: X-Wing, Star Wars: Armada, and Star Wars: Legion represents an exciting development for miniatures games in a galaxy far, far away.

We spoke with Atomic Mass’ Simone Elliott (Head of Studio) and Will Shick (Head of Product Development) to gain more information on what fans can expect in the future and for more background on the factors leading to this reorganization.

Let’s start with the most obvious question. Fantasy Flight has launched and maintained three incredibly successful Star Wars miniatures games. Why the move to Atomic Mass?

Simone: In a word, specialization. Moving to AMG gives us the perfect opportunity to develop our miniatures games in a studio devoted entirely to miniatures, rather than board and card tabletop games. It’s a place where these specific types of games can truly thrive.

Will: And that devotion Simone mentions, our singular focus on hobby miniatures, is fueled by our team’s lifelong passion for creating great games. Combining that passion with the incredibly solid foundation laid by the team at Fantasy Flight is basically like bringing balance to the Force. We have the tools and we have the talent to build on that foundation and take these miniatures games even further.

Does this mean we should expect changes to X-Wing, Legion, and Armada?

Will: One of Atomic Mass’ core philosophies is that there is no finish line. We see ourselves on a lifelong journey of learning and improvement. That’s a pretentious way of saying yes (laughs).

If we’re doing the job right, and staying true to our ethos as a studio, changes will most certainly happen. But those changes will always be in service of making great games even better. I should also point out that any change process will always be measured and highly considerate. These games have solid fan bases made up of people who have invested their hard-earned money, and more importantly, their time and creativity, into creating armies, squadrons, and fleets that are unique reflections of who they are.

We’re a studio made up of people who love and engage in the hobby daily. We deeply understand that kind of investment on a personal level, and we’re committed to honoring and valuing it in everything we do.

Does that include new Star Wars miniatures games? Can we expect to see any additional titles?

Simone: While we’re hyper-focused on our current games, we’re always thinking of new ones, too. Will and I have talked a lot about how we can create cool new Star Wars miniatures games that will excite fans and immerse them in the stories they love so much.

Will: The galaxy far, far away is a really big place with a lot to explore. It doesn’t take Emperor Palpatine’s Force abilities to foresee that this is just the beginning for Star Wars miniatures games.



For more on the Star Wars miniatures transition to Atomic Mass Games, check out our official press release.

Hmm, that's definitely an interesting choice, but probably a good one. I don't play any of those guys or Crisis Protocol, but from all accounts the team that runs CP are top notch. They seem to have a very active social media presence and communicate with their fans a lot.

Its all under the Asmodee banner anyway, so the real boogeyman that is their distribution issues, will be the same either way.

These and ASoIaF deserve better than Asmodee as distributor.

X-Wing seems to have stumbled since 2.0 came out. Not sure which way the wind is blowing on this one - whether it's just a division switch or there'll be an actual shakeup in how the game(s) are handled.

It feels like we are seeing the slow vivisection of FFG. What section of FFG will go next? Card games? Board games with miniatures?

Wondering once again if Asmodee is hollowing out FFG and are just going to dump them in a ditch.

Considering FFGs pretty poor history with miniature games I think people are over reacting just a tad. If Asmodee wasn't involved and the story was more FFG creates spin off company Atomic mass games with ex Privateer Press employees. And then a year later moved the rest of their mini games over to them due to how well Crisis Protocol development was being run I don't think the reaction here would be the same.

Hopefully this means FFG will go back to focusing on great board games. They used to be my favorite studio, but so much focus on Star Wars mini games has really reduced the output of other interesting games from them.

I’ve just got into Star Wars Legion, so hopefully there’s no negative side effects to this. It would be nice if it meant proper distribution, but it’s still Asmodee so, I doubt it.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Its all under the Asmodee banner anyway, so the real boogeyman that is their distribution issues, will be the same either way.

These and ASoIaF deserve better than Asmodee as distributor.

MCP has never, EVER had distribution problems

I can't see It being anything negative for legion etc,

whether it's also part of a plan to refocus FFG or or drop it as an entity in a few years probably depends on what the takeover agreement said (ie do any of the old FFG crew get continual payments or residuals which could be stopped by removing all the assets before closing the brand)

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Its all under the Asmodee banner anyway, so the real boogeyman that is their distribution issues, will be the same either way.

These and ASoIaF deserve better than Asmodee as distributor.

MCP has never, EVER had distribution problems

How do we get some of that for ASOIAF?

They just delayed the November releases for ASOIAF, and their excuse was basically just telling us they are bad at their job after first blaming the issue on CMON. When they clarified they (a logistics and supply chain company) just said they were having supply chain "issues".

They've been doing the same thing since well before Covid. They just suck at their job.

I suspect MCP hasn't had issues as It's not popular enough yet to outsell a basic minimum order,

when they need to commit extra money up front things may get worse
(although since it's HIPS it could be from a different factory with more space for regular smaller orders, rather than a single big one that has to last 6 months)

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Its all under the Asmodee banner anyway, so the real boogeyman that is their distribution issues, will be the same either way.

These and ASoIaF deserve better than Asmodee as distributor.

MCP has never, EVER had distribution problems

Maybe not in America but early distribution was appalling in UK and Europe. Some models that went out of stock when the game first launched have only just become available again in the last month. It hasn’t been ASOIAF bad but far from good.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Considering FFGs pretty poor history with miniature games I think people are over reacting just a tad.

Pretty sure 'overreacting' is exactly what some said when the RPG division got gutted and there was talk of FFG losing the SW license back in January. But here we are again. Somehow.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Its all under the Asmodee banner anyway, so the real boogeyman that is their distribution issues, will be the same either way.

These and ASoIaF deserve better than Asmodee as distributor.

MCP has never, EVER had distribution problems

What’s MCP?

Got the various others, but this one has me stumped.

Well I guess a bunch of people at FFG are about to get fired, just like their RPG dept a while back.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Its all under the Asmodee banner anyway, so the real boogeyman that is their distribution issues, will be the same either way.

These and ASoIaF deserve better than Asmodee as distributor.

MCP has never, EVER had distribution problems

What’s MCP?

Got the various others, but this one has me stumped.

I’m guessing Marvel: Crisis Protocol?

I’m not a superhero fan but it seems to fit.

Voss wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Considering FFGs pretty poor history with miniature games I think people are over reacting just a tad.

Pretty sure 'overreacting' is exactly what some said when the RPG division got gutted and there was talk of FFG losing the SW license back in January. But here we are again. Somehow.

But this is nothing like the RPG stuff, which turned out to be just them getting rid of in house and moving to mostly contractors as they're still doing Genesys and L5R releases last I heard (I know there's a new sourcebook for L5R) so it sucked people lost their jobs but they didn't drop RPGs. They're literally just moving things to a sister company that's focus is this type of game. FFG clearly doesn't have the resources to do boardgames, RPGS and Wargames as they generally only manage to get one of those any support at a given time (and it was never RPGS). You can blame Asmodee for that but the fact still remains that they were horrible supporting all 3 before the acquisition.

My issue is the Atomic Mass Games have been super quick to pat themselves on the back (See their videos from "Gencon" this year) while cranking out a fun beer and pretzels game that has some really generic and repeated poses on their characters.

Can they handle taking on three new games that have very vocal and demanding fanbases? The MCP fanboys pretty much crush anyone on their FB pages that doesn't't agree with everything they do being completely perfect, so they get little actual feedback other than more cheers every time they show a new mini.

Probably partly due to the fact that it is a fun game based on a popular IP, but since Covid hit pretty soon after release they have not been really tested in the big tournament and rules lawyer waters yet. The Sw games have, and have reacted fairly well to past issues.

Distribution is what it is, they are both under the Asmodee banner. Not sure how that will impact the restock issues.

Who knows, hoping for the best.

Psyched for a Darth Vader doing his best Captain Morgan pose and A Star Destroyer posed jauntily off of an asteroid with the SW Armada 1.5 releases.

The only person that seems to have moved on so far has been one of the organized play guys and that was more than likely to return to the UK after all the issues in the part of the States where he was living, no sign of it being anything else other than an internal reshuffle so far.

Yeah it aint gonna be a big deal.
Only change i can see is the packaging now having a cool little robot



Automatically Appended Next Post:

vinsal wrote:
My issue is the Atomic Mass Games have been super quick to pat themselves on the back (See their videos from "Gencon" this year) while cranking out a fun beer and pretzels game that has some really generic and repeated poses on their characters.

Can they handle taking on three new games that have very vocal and demanding fanbases? The MCP fanboys pretty much crush anyone on their FB pages that doesn't't agree with everything they do being completely perfect, so they get little actual feedback other than more cheers every time they show a new mini.

Probably partly due to the fact that it is a fun game based on a popular IP, but since Covid hit pretty soon after release they have not been really tested in the big tournament and rules lawyer waters yet. The Sw games have, and have reacted fairly well to past issues.

Distribution is what it is, they are both under the Asmodee banner. Not sure how that will impact the restock issues.

Who knows, hoping for the best.

Psyched for a Darth Vader doing his best Captain Morgan pose and A Star Destroyer posed jauntily off of an asteroid with the SW Armada 1.5 releases.

I won every Marvel Mini and i dont see repeated poses.
Unless you are talking about the Rocks, which every single wargame has nowadays

I hope this isn't a sign of rebooting the license,
but I am not sure what else they can do for the new products because it seems very limited to what hasn't been released yet.

 Genoside07 wrote:
I hope this isn't a sign of rebooting the license,
but I am not sure what else they can do for the new products because it seems very limited to what hasn't been released yet.

For the SW games? There are tons of things still to be released for each of them, prequel stuff has not really got revved up yet (for Armada its due for release next month), sequel stuff is only in X-Wing and there is not yet a thing from Mando in any of it. Of course there is also an entirely new time period about to be released and fleshed out which will add even more options.

MCP has absolutely had distribution issues, like all things touched by Asmodee, but theyve been less pronounced than other games because MCP doesn't sell multiple copies of every release to every customer the way releases for ASOIF and the SW games do.

As for FFG, a bunch if the devs for the games have been laid off, including Alex Davy and Michael Gernes who were the primary game designers, developers, and producers behind the three Star Wars systems.

 Monkeysloth wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Considering FFGs pretty poor history with miniature games I think people are over reacting just a tad.

Pretty sure 'overreacting' is exactly what some said when the RPG division got gutted and there was talk of FFG losing the SW license back in January. But here we are again. Somehow.

But this is nothing like the RPG stuff, which turned out to be just them getting rid of in house and moving to mostly contractors as they're still doing Genesys and L5R releases last I heard (I know there's a new sourcebook for L5R) so it sucked people lost their jobs but they didn't drop RPGs.

Firing people and moving to contractors is definitionally gutting an RPG department. [which is what I said, not 'drop RPGs.' And see below on losing the license comment

They're literally just moving things to a sister company that's focus is this type of game.

Yeah. Moving major titles (and the accompanying license) from FFG to a different company is pretty much exactly what I mean by 'hollowing out' FFG. The 'sister' company aspect provides no comfort for people who are losing their jobs or now likely have to move their families from Minnesota to Washington state.

FFG clearly doesn't have the resources to do boardgames, RPGS and Wargames as they generally only manage to get one of those any support at a given time (and it was never RPGS). You can blame Asmodee for that but the fact still remains that they were horrible supporting all 3 before the acquisition.

So it is happening, but its justified, so that's OK? I'm not actually sure you're really arguing with my points at this stage.
It certainly doesn't seem like overreacting if you're positing idea that this actually needs to happen because FFG is horrible.

Their support for RPGs was fine. They just don't have an RPG team anymore.

I wonder if this change will mean the Armada Super Star Destroyer will go down in price?

chaos0xomega wrote:
MCP has absolutely had distribution issues, like all things touched by Asmodee, but theyve been less pronounced than other games because MCP doesn't sell multiple copies of every release to every customer the way releases for ASOIF and the SW games do.

As for FFG, a bunch if the devs for the games have been laid off, including Alex Davy and Michael Gernes who were the primary game designers, developers, and producers behind the three Star Wars systems.

Did anyone tell Alex? He seemed to think he was still lead dev for Legion as of the 20th of last month.

You do realize that this news broke today, right? His status on the 20th of October is irrelevant as to his status on the 16th of November....

And do you have proof of his status today?

https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/jvdyaz/-/gcj7t9y

Tinbootz is a former FFG employee and game designer, you might now him as Sam Bailey, the designer of Forbidden Stars. Scroll down through the comments and he confirms both to have been laid off

 ingtaer wrote:

 Genoside07 wrote:
I hope this isn't a sign of rebooting the license,
but I am not sure what else they can do for the new products because it seems very limited to what hasn't been released yet.

For the SW games? There are tons of things still to be released for each of them, prequel stuff has not really got revved up yet (for Armada its due for release next month), sequel stuff is only in X-Wing and there is not yet a thing from Mando in any of it. Of course there is also an entirely new time period about to be released and fleshed out which will add even more options.

Yeah, im a bit confused, there are three distinct eras that can be drawn from right now, that many need to be.
Clone wars for Legion needs tons of stuff for bothe sides. While Original Trilogy they have exhausted quite a bit of the Onscreen material there is still plenty.

chaos0xomega wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/jvdyaz/-/gcj7t9y

Tinbootz is a former FFG employee and game designer, you might now him as Sam Bailey, the designer of Forbidden Stars. Scroll down through the comments and he confirms both to have been laid off

Thanks for that, hopefully there is an error in comms somewhere as if that is true that is going to have major repercussions for those games. Will hold out hope until Alex says something himself though.

 Genoside07 wrote:
I hope this isn't a sign of rebooting the license,
but I am not sure what else they can do for the new products because it seems very limited to what hasn't been released yet.

No! There has not been a TIE Dagger for X-Wing, and I cannot accept a reboot before we get TIE Dagger! That would be unredeemable.


Dammit,l FFG, if I don’t start seeing more Star Wars ships with triangles where hexagons go, I am gonna lose it.

Oof......if the lay off is true that is a bit concerning.

Chatting around and it seems like the vast majority, if not the totality of what was FFG's OP team have been fired. A very sad and appalling decision. No further news on any of the other staff yet though.

Voss wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Considering FFGs pretty poor history with miniature games I think people are over reacting just a tad.

Pretty sure 'overreacting' is exactly what some said when the RPG division got gutted and there was talk of FFG losing the SW license back in January. But here we are again. Somehow.

But this is nothing like the RPG stuff, which turned out to be just them getting rid of in house and moving to mostly contractors as they're still doing Genesys and L5R releases last I heard (I know there's a new sourcebook for L5R) so it sucked people lost their jobs but they didn't drop RPGs.

Firing people and moving to contractors is definitionally gutting an RPG department. [which is what I said, not 'drop RPGs.' And see below on losing the license comment

They're literally just moving things to a sister company that's focus is this type of game.

Yeah. Moving major titles (and the accompanying license) from FFG to a different company is pretty much exactly what I mean by 'hollowing out' FFG. The 'sister' company aspect provides no comfort for people who are losing their jobs or now likely have to move their families from Minnesota to Washington state.

FFG clearly doesn't have the resources to do boardgames, RPGS and Wargames as they generally only manage to get one of those any support at a given time (and it was never RPGS). You can blame Asmodee for that but the fact still remains that they were horrible supporting all 3 before the acquisition.

So it is happening, but its justified, so that's OK? I'm not actually sure you're really arguing with my points at this stage.
It certainly doesn't seem like overreacting if you're positing idea that this actually needs to happen because FFG is horrible.

My argument isn't that it's not happening but that people are claiming this will ruin FFG. Moving the RPGs to be contractors, or another sister company I read different things on the web, didn't cause FFG to collapse (my argument on the RPG was under the impressions they killed every game as that was the initial thought and about all I followed when that happened so I was wrong about this being different). Neither will this. FFG has always been a boardgame shop that flirts with other game types with rare success for those experiments. As long as they continue to make well received board games the company will be around for quite some time.

Dakka makes the joke that FFG wont support miniature games for very long before shutting them down then acts with horror as Asmodee moves all that away from the company with a horrible track record for anything not called X-Wing when it comes to miniature games and even that gravy train is over as all the talk and excitement that use to exist for the game died when 2.0 came out. Clearly Asmodee thinks that other people can do a better job with an expensive licenses, which is arguable, which is why they're not moving anyone over to AMG. This is just how large corporations work. It's not surprising at all.

chaos0xomega wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/jvdyaz/-/gcj7t9y

Tinbootz is a former FFG employee and game designer, you might now him as Sam Bailey, the designer of Forbidden Stars. Scroll down through the comments and he confirms both to have been laid off

Oh, my! A post by an anonymous redditor! The veritable bastion of truth on the interwebs!

While I certainly hoping these guys haven't lost their job, especially the week before Thanksgiving, I prefer something more concrete than an anon claiming to be a "former employee" that "knows people" as a source.

Why is their staff getting fired so unbelievable?

It happened with their RPG department the last time this happened.

 Soundtheory wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/jvdyaz/-/gcj7t9y

Tinbootz is a former FFG employee and game designer, you might now him as Sam Bailey, the designer of Forbidden Stars. Scroll down through the comments and he confirms both to have been laid off

Oh, my! A post by an anonymous redditor! The veritable bastion of truth on the interwebs!

While I certainly hoping these guys haven't lost their job, especially the week before Thanksgiving, I prefer something more concrete than an anon claiming to be a "former employee" that "knows people" as a source.

Whilst I would generally agree with you, Sam is pretty well known and is still friends with a lot of the FFG staff. He was also the initial source of the death of FFG's RPGs and that all panned out as he said. I would give it a high probability of being accurate, especially after chatting with some (now former) OP guys.

So I am hoping for a press con soon from this new Studio on this. According to the SWA reddit, the MCP team does a great job engaging with the community base.

My Questions as an Armada/X-Wing Player:

1. Please do not move away from prepainted HQ miniatures to grey plastic PVC cheapness. The entire appeal of both X-Wing and Armada is that they're ready to go, right out of the box. This type of change would kill it for me.

2. Please no rules changes, Armada is in an amazing spot, seeing what happened with X-Wing 2.0 I have great fear about this.

3. Are we likely to see better stock, greater releases, more campaigns and the like?

If I can get answers to these, I think I'll be in a better position.

in addition to the three main eras, disney is revving up for this high republic thing, good chance to get in the door with RPG and mini game support for that

 Soundtheory wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/jvdyaz/-/gcj7t9y

Tinbootz is a former FFG employee and game designer, you might now him as Sam Bailey, the designer of Forbidden Stars. Scroll down through the comments and he confirms both to have been laid off

Oh, my! A post by an anonymous redditor! The veritable bastion of truth on the interwebs!

While I certainly hoping these guys haven't lost their job, especially the week before Thanksgiving, I prefer something more concrete than an anon claiming to be a "former employee" that "knows people" as a source.

That user is known in the community. Just because you are ignorant of that fact, doesn't make the source invalid. You can literally check his post history to verify that he is who he says he is....

 Soundtheory wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/jvdyaz/-/gcj7t9y

Tinbootz is a former FFG employee and game designer, you might now him as Sam Bailey, the designer of Forbidden Stars. Scroll down through the comments and he confirms both to have been laid off

Oh, my! A post by an anonymous redditor! The veritable bastion of truth on the interwebs!

While I certainly hoping these guys haven't lost their job, especially the week before Thanksgiving, I prefer something more concrete than an anon claiming to be a "former employee" that "knows people" as a source.

Hes not an anonymous redditor, hes done AMAs before (i.e. identity needs to be confirmed and credentialed) and has a pretty long post history including adverts for his kickstarter and other projects (which you can cross-reference with his BGG profile). I've also interacted with him on multiple occasions, including in person. So while in your opinion he's a random anon making gak up, I know for a fact that he's the real deal.

1. Please do not move away from prepainted HQ miniatures to grey plastic PVC cheapness. The entire appeal of both X-Wing and Armada is that they're ready to go, right out of the box. This type of change would kill it for me.

The former Star Wars license manager for FFG is now in charge of AMG, so I don't see this changing.

2. Please no rules changes, Armada is in an amazing spot, seeing what happened with X-Wing 2.0 I have great fear about this.

The fact that design leads (and indeed most if not all of the three games actual rules designers) have all been axed doesn't bode well on this. Designers tend to have strong opinions on how things should function or look, and there will be little to no continuity into the hands of the new team. Designers also always try to leave their mark on gak. X-Wing might be relatively safe only because they only recently released 2.0 and licensor approval might mean that 3.0 will be unpalatable to Lucasfilm so soon, the other two games are likely to see some revision. Licensor approval on Lucasfilm stuff is supposedly a lengthy process and the releases through the end of 2021 are already approved and fixed, and they have pipeline out to 2025, so I don't think a new edition will be in the works per se - BUT I expect there will be a number of rules revisions and adjustments and some level of "soft reboot" to the rules in the short term.

3. Are we likely to see better stock, greater releases, more campaigns and the like?

I don't see this changing. They are both Asmodee companies, use the same factories, suppliers, logistics, distribution, etc.

in addition to the three main eras, disney is revving up for this high republic thing, good chance to get in the door with RPG and mini game support for that

RPGs are a different studio. If theres any High Republic tie-in for the games to be released within the next year it was already developed and approved by Lucasfilm as part of FFG.

For the games, this is probably a good thing. AMG is composed of good people that have done a phenomenal job with MCP and are really passionate about game development. I think they'll do a great job with the Star Wars brand.

For FFG and its employees, it definitely sucks and is a product of the Asmodee machine that's been devouring the games industry for years. This is hardly the first and won't be the last ship they sink in the name of efficiency.

Voss wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Considering FFGs pretty poor history with miniature games I think people are over reacting just a tad.

Pretty sure 'overreacting' is exactly what some said when the RPG division got gutted and there was talk of FFG losing the SW license back in January. But here we are again. Somehow.

You know, I do seem to remember something like that

 LunarSol wrote:
For the games, this is probably a good thing. AMG is composed of good people that have done a phenomenal job with MCP and are really passionate about game development. I think they'll do a great job with the Star Wars brand.

For FFG and its employees, it definitely sucks and is a product of the Asmodee machine that's been devouring the games industry for years. This is hardly the first and won't be the last ship they sink in the name of efficiency.

It sucks for the FFG employees getting let go for sure. I don't necessarily think it is a bad thing overall, since FFG as a company was never really "all-in" on their miniatures games the way miniatures gamers expect.

I'm assuming FFG will still be producing Rebellion and Outer Rim? I've still yet to pick those up and I don't want to miss out--I grabbed Forbidden Stars right before it disappeared forever and it's now one of my favorite board games!

 LunarSol wrote:
For the games, this is probably a good thing. AMG is composed of good people that have done a phenomenal job with MCP and are really passionate about game development. I think they'll do a great job with the Star Wars brand.

with the original Designers gone and 3 more games I doubt that
not only that we can expect a backlog until the new team can handle everything, going from 1 game to 4 and doing a great job on all of them is impossible

and SW Legion is one of the best designed SciFi games around, it is not just doing a great job with the SW brand but they need to do a great job with Legion very soon or the fans will drop it

 kodos wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
For the games, this is probably a good thing. AMG is composed of good people that have done a phenomenal job with MCP and are really passionate about game development. I think they'll do a great job with the Star Wars brand.

with the original Designers gone and 3 more games I doubt that
not only that we can expect a backlog until the new team can handle everything, going from 1 game to 4 and doing a great job on all of them is impossible

and SW Legion is one of the best designed SciFi games around, it is not just doing a great job with the SW brand but they need to do a great job with Legion very soon or the fans will drop it

I do really like the core mechanics of Legion. It needs some thought on how to avoid the exploitation in building mono-order lists that leads to activation advantages being problematic, but the suppression system mixed with the orders makes for a really compelling core.

I'm in Legion for the minis so on the surface I shouldn't be worried about this - it'll still be distributed by Asmodee and you'd assume manufactured in the same way, so there's no reason to assume production will slow down or distribution will change from its currently inadequate level in either direction, but is this other company really prepared for jumping from managing one fairly niche skirmish game to four games at once? And if they have canned the development guys...eesh.

I may not personally appreciate the style of games FFG games, but they clearly have an audience and that audience has expectations. If those aren't met because the new team doesn't quite "get" FFG's style, that could impact popularity and thus my chances of getting shiny new Star Wars minis.

We'll have to wait and see I guess.

 Yodhrin wrote:
I'm in Legion for the minis so on the surface I shouldn't be worried about this - it'll still be distributed by Asmodee and you'd assume manufactured in the same way, so there's no reason to assume production will slow down or distribution will change from its currently inadequate level in either direction, but is this other company really prepared for jumping from managing one fairly niche skirmish game to four games at once? And if they have canned the development guys...eesh.

I may not personally appreciate the style of games FFG games, but they clearly have an audience and that audience has expectations. If those aren't met because the new team doesn't quite "get" FFG's style, that could impact popularity and thus my chances of getting shiny new Star Wars minis.

We'll have to wait and see I guess.

The devs may have been given the opportunity to transfer to AMG and declined (due to having to move or any number of reasons). That sort of thing happens all the time when companies restructure/rearrange offices.

Curious about the long term effects, but we won't see it for at least 6 months. Hopefully this does mean they pursue even more interesting ideas.

Limited release Clone Wars tiny scale game so you can have all those giant clone wars vehicles running around would be fun. Release it like a GW boxed game.

Hes not an anonymous redditor, hes done AMAs before (i.e. identity needs to be confirmed and credentialed) and has a pretty long post history including adverts for his kickstarter and other projects (which you can cross-reference with his BGG profile). I've also interacted with him on multiple occasions, including in person. So while in your opinion he's a random anon making gak up, I know for a fact that he's the real deal.

He certainly seemed gunshy about identifying who he was on the thread you linked, when asked who he was, he would only respond "I used to work at FFG" "I know people." Reddit AMAs as a background check, lord....

That's hard facts for ya, ha?

Look, if they fired people right before Thanksgiving, that's horrible, complete crap, and more reason to contemplate dropping the game than whatever studio it ends up with, or rule changes they may make for it. Sorry I'd like a little more that some redditor running around claiming to be an ex-employee (because they would never have an ax to grind) to confirm a company's retched behavior. It's not like game companies aren't accused of worse on the interwebs whenever they make a change folks don't like.

It seems like a Christmas tradition at Asomdee to have "staff changes" right before Christmas every year.

Here's FFG's miniatures track record from what I've noticed:

* Battlelore 2nd edition: Dropped the game line before factions were balanced.

* Star Wars Imperium: Includes a SW miniatures game.
* Star Wars Legion: A SW miniatures game. Scale not compatible with Imperium.

* Star Wars X-Wing: SW spaceship miniatures game.
* Star Wars Armada: SW big spaceship miniatures game.

* Runewars : Picked up two copies at $25 each.

And this doesn't include the other "lifestyle" games (or at least card games with several expansions) that FFG released:
* Android (dead or something)
* SW Destiny dice game (dead)
* Legend of the Five Rings (soon to be dead)
* A Game of Thrones (MM discount bin)
* Arkham Horror
* Lord of the Rings
* Marvel Champions

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2477281/why-game-not-great-success-or-it

Now, I'd agree that FFG's cooperative card games are less like conventional PvP "lifestyle" games than boardgames, but look at how many miniature games and card games FFG had, almost all of these at the same time, which were a long-term commitment by both the customer and the company. This doesn't even include their multi-expansion boardgames, such as Arkham Horror, Mansions of Madness, and Descent, all three of which have been supported and rebooted by the company over at least a decade or so.

At one time FFG had more lifestyle games than GW and WotC combined. (Maybe they still do now.) Who thought *that* was sustainable?

AFAIK, At no time did tabletop miniature players consider FFG as a miniatures company, although I dunno about SW Legion. (Gee, does a a SW Legion paint set count?) Maybe Atomic Mass will produce miniatures games more for the hobby market, and less like miniature games made by a boardgame company in boardgame plastic. Although, given the crowded hobby market, who knows how well this will work, and the future of FFG's former miniature lines...!

Who remembers the 80's??? Way back when, a certain company had several science-fiction and fantasy boardgames, including a fantasy football one. Then they narrowed down their focus to a handful of games. A more narrow focus to a line of games with a demonstrated track record is a thing, and FFG looks to be doing it -- and has been doing it -- with certain LCG's and boardgame lines.

They also had Dust tactics, Anima Tactics, Tanhouser, and a line of metal miniatures for Decent that went no where (and probably one or two that I don't know about/remember). The first two were just distribution I only I believe (though they might have been more involved in Dust Tactics). Outside of a few scattered years they've had some miniature game for like 10-15 years and had the top selling wargame not from GW for at least 2 years in X-wing (and I've read so interesting arguments from people that know the industry well that think it easily out sold GW those years) so I don't know how people wouldn't think of them as a miniature company and more then WoTC when they produced their own lines for like 10 years (both metal and plastic). Just because it's not your main focus (though it really was during the x-wing heyday) doesn't mean you're not one if you generally have always had a miniature game or 3 you're selling at the same time.

It's just outside of X-Wing they never really had luck with anything (until they shot themselves in the foot with a poorly ran 2nd edition launch). Dust did well but it's Dust so other forces outside of FFG sunk that game as it was getting popular (and every relaunch since).

But you are right about them really focusing a lot on the lifestyle games though, going after a lot of money from a small player base due to all the overlapping. Android was huge but WoTC decided to upend that by refusing to re-license the rules as they want it for Cyberpunk 2077 CCG. I didn't realize L5R LCG was ending. I thought that was the whole reason FFG bought the IP.

 ced1106 wrote:
* Star Wars Imperium: Includes a SW miniatures game.
* Star Wars Legion: A SW miniatures game. Scale not compatible with Imperium.

Please honour the fallen appropriately - Imperial Assault, not Imperium.

 Genoside07 wrote:
It seems like a Christmas tradition at Asomdee to have "staff changes" right before Christmas every year.

Also at any other time... FFG has always been very fast drawing that particular gun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ced1106 wrote:

* Legend of the Five Rings (soon to be dead)

Do you... maybe, have any kind of hard info about that? I mean, I am working on that line. Or rather, those lines.

Didnt they also do a Mutant Chronicles miniatures game in a weird scale too?

 bbb wrote:
Didnt they also do a Mutant Chronicles miniatures game in a weird scale too?

Quite a while ago, yes.

FFG is not seen as Miniature Company but as a Gaming Company hence people don't expect the best Minis from FFG but good games

using the Boardgame approach with ready to play models worked very well for X-Wing
no reason why having the focus on the game should be a problem for Legion except that the money is made with extensive model sales

if this will be better with a miniature company and the focus on models instead of the game will be seen (worst case is that we just see lots of Clone themed 40k armies)

> Do you... maybe, have any kind of hard info about that? I mean, I am working on that line. Or rather, those lines.

I personally don't. I'm passing along what a hardcore L5R LCG player and CCG game designer said, who has some but not deep industry contacts. You can see for yourself how much faith L5R LCG players have in the game from the BGG link I provided. I've seen enough "lifestyle" games from FFG that its not too hard to guess what's more likely to survive and what won't. Certainly, the gaming market cannot handle the number of lifestyle games introduced in the last few years. You' don't even need a KS to introduce a new miniatures game line (although Osprey Publishing's Nickstarters seem to be working just fine), I've also heard of enough cases of game designers being some of the last people to know a game has been dropped by the company. (Same model they use in software design...

> using the Boardgame approach with ready to play models worked very well for X-Wing
> no reason why having the focus on the game should be a problem for Legion except that the money is made with extensive model sales

Well, when Legion was released, I read posts complaining about the incompatibility of the Legion miniatures with Imperial Assault (sp) miniatures. Also, FFG has a line of SW Legion paints. If that doesn't suggest at least some attention to Legion as a hobby model miniatures line I don't know what will. I do agree that. I'm sure that FFG/Asmodee wants their SW models to be accessible to both boardgamers and hobbyists for a larger market, including collectors who don't play (aka. KS backers, right?). A Dakka thread at least anecdotally explained that many SW models were bought not to be played with, but to be collected on desks for display. I figure we'll find out soon enough what direction AMG will take Legion, and how well that plan will go. As someone who was in the hobby during the CCG glut of the 1990's, I don't particularly recommend investing too much in any lifestyle game besides the most popular ones without accepting the likelihood that the game will be dropped after a few years, after you've dropped a few hundred dollars into it.

 ced1106 wrote:
I personally don't. I'm passing along what a hardcore L5R LCG player and CCG game designer said, who has some but not deep industry contacts. You can see for yourself how much faith L5R LCG players have in the game from the BGG link I provided.

There is no real doubt that the LCG has some meta-game issues, with some overpowered cards getting released from time to time, but, on the basis that FFG owns the L5R property outright, I'd lean toward it being rather unlikely to die any time soon. Killing licensed, low-selling games is a no-brainer, since you have to beat out the licensing cost to even break even, but that is a non-factor for L5R in this case.

 ced1106 wrote:

Well, when Legion was released, I read posts complaining about the incompatibility of the Legion miniatures with Imperial Assault (sp) miniatures. Also, FFG has a line of SW Legion paints. If that doesn't suggest at least some attention to Legion as a hobby model miniatures line I don't know what will. I do agree that. I'm sure that FFG/Asmodee wants their SW models to be accessible to both boardgamers and hobbyists for a larger market, including collectors who don't play

having 2 lines with similar models is a problem if the market is overlapping
but even if both would have been the same scale, people would have complained because needing to buy them again for the cards
yet to a point Legion and Imperial Assault are not meant for the same target group with one being a boardgame and the other a competitive wargame, so it is easier to keep them appart by using a different scale (and some people are just angry that their most liked character was released in IA but not for Legion)

that Legion also is looking into the market of collectors is a thing, yet collectors who buy 1 Vader and 1 unit of Stormtroopers are not those who bring in the money compared to those who have each unit 3 times and are buying each new model to play the game

but I agree only time will tell if this is going to work out well or not

 ced1106 wrote:
> Do you... maybe, have any kind of hard info about that? I mean, I am working on that line. Or rather, those lines.


Well, when Legion was released, I read posts complaining about the incompatibility of the Legion miniatures with Imperial Assault (sp) miniatures. Also, FFG has a line of SW Legion paints. If that doesn't suggest at least some attention to Legion as a hobby model miniatures line I don't know what will. I do agree that. I'm sure that FFG/Asmodee wants their SW models to be accessible to both boardgamers and hobbyists for a larger market, including collectors who don't play (aka. KS backers, right?). A Dakka thread at least anecdotally explained that many SW models were bought not to be played with, but to be collected on desks for display. I figure we'll find out soon enough what direction AMG will take Legion, and how well that plan will go. As someone who was in the hobby during the CCG glut of the 1990's, I don't particularly recommend investing too much in any lifestyle game besides the most popular ones without accepting the likelihood that the game will be dropped after a few years, after you've dropped a few hundred dollars into it.

I agree -- We are very hesitatnt to invest in small company games that required a specfic range of models at this point. So much lost...and the major player companies are retiring
units left and right, even if the game system is 30 years old.

We are gravitating towards releases that allow model flexibility. For example, I sold my Legion components and kept my painted stormtroopers and Rebels for Star Breach, a general sci-fi
skirmish rule book.

Ah, Imperial Assault. It's worth noting that that one was really kind of a cheat as far as miniature games go. It was always rather tacked on, largely as an attempt to skirt around the fact they only had the rights to make Star Wars miniature games, but wanted to make a board game. They still ended up having to pay Hasbro in the end.

It was a great game but it really reached a pretty natural end of life as far as a board game is concerned. You fought Palpatine on Coruscant after all. Board games rarely expand forever the same way miniatures do and that game had done all it needed to do. I get why people were upset it didn't turn into Legion, but owning both, its less of a figure scale issue and more of a "type of game collection" issue. 3 monopose figure squads don't really translate very far into an army collection.

A big part of it was just that Imperial Assault really represented the worst of FFG's excesses in terms of expansion sprawl. The Boba Fett expansion featuring Boba Fett (Boba Fett sold separately) was pretty crazy for most people,and the actual competitive mode was kind of a joke, but for the people invested, it was a BIG investment. I get the desire for it to pay off in Legion, but I'm glad Legion wasn't limited to its failings.

LunarSol wrote: I get why people were upset it didn't turn into Legion, but owning both, its less of a figure scale issue and more of a "type of game collection" issue. 3 monopose figure squads don't really translate very far into an army collection.

That's why you can simply come out with new releases in the same scale with greater variety for the people who do care and want that extra poseability (and most importantly are willing to pay for the priviledge). Problem solved! Unless of course the real goal was to force everyone interested to pay for the priveledge in the first place...

having 2 lines with similar models is a problem if the market is overlapping
but even if both would have been the same scale, people would have complained because needing to buy them again for the cards

Using your logic, you can divide the player base into three groups (although #2 and 3 likely have significant overlap):

1) Those who don't care and/or don't know any better (most likely by far the largest group)
2) Those who complain about needing to buy them for the cards
3) Those who complain about needing to buy them for the new scale

Keeping them the same scale makes two groups happy instead of just one and all three would be happy if they also published the cards separately for purchase. It's a win win for consumers so I don't understand why you're trying so hard to justify it from a consumer angle when none exists. They made the choice that was the absolute worst for the consumer and it was done for their own bottom line. It's ok that they did that and they're perfectly entitled to do so but lets not pretend that they were in some sort of dilemna where fans wouldn't be happy regardless.

 LunarSol wrote:
It was a great game but it really reached a pretty natural end of life as far as a board game is concerned. You fought Palpatine on Coruscant after all. Board games rarely expand forever the same way miniatures do and that game had done all it needed to do. I get why people were upset it didn't turn into Legion, but owning both, its less of a figure scale issue and more of a "type of game collection" issue. 3 monopose figure squads don't really translate very far into an army collection.

I'd argue IA was about one expansion short - or at least a wave of booster packs short - but that expansion would need some work to be thematic.

I know a lot of players wanted an Endor expansion with Ewoks, for example, and there are characters from the films (Yoda, or 4-LOM and Zuckuss) that seem like obvious releases which were ignored.

never said it was the best choice for the costumer
it was a a good enough reason for a gaming company to keep its Boardgame and Wargame appart
and there are other reasons why you want your games to be recognised as different
there are enough Wargamers who won't touch a Boardgame and vica versa,
so the chance on missing big sales in your target group (those who don't care or know, the largest group) is high while missing out on 1 of the smaller groups is not a big problem (as some of them buy in anyway)

Another update from them yesterday (added to first post):

https://www.atomicmassgames.com/starwars-qa

November 17, 2020

This Is Where the Fun Begins
Atomic Mass Games Launches Into the Galaxy of Star Wars Miniatures

Yesterday’s announcement that Atomic Mass Games (AMG) will be taking responsibility for the continued development of Star Wars: X-Wing, Star Wars: Armada, and Star Wars: Legion represents an exciting development for miniatures games in a galaxy far, far away.

We spoke with Atomic Mass’ Simone Elliott (Head of Studio) and Will Shick (Head of Product Development) to gain more information on what fans can expect in the future and for more background on the factors leading to this reorganization.

Let’s start with the most obvious question. Fantasy Flight has launched and maintained three incredibly successful Star Wars miniatures games. Why the move to Atomic Mass?

Simone: In a word, specialization. Moving to AMG gives us the perfect opportunity to develop our miniatures games in a studio devoted entirely to miniatures, rather than board and card tabletop games. It’s a place where these specific types of games can truly thrive.

Will: And that devotion Simone mentions, our singular focus on hobby miniatures, is fueled by our team’s lifelong passion for creating great games. Combining that passion with the incredibly solid foundation laid by the team at Fantasy Flight is basically like bringing balance to the Force. We have the tools and we have the talent to build on that foundation and take these miniatures games even further.

Does this mean we should expect changes to X-Wing, Legion, and Armada?

Will: One of Atomic Mass’ core philosophies is that there is no finish line. We see ourselves on a lifelong journey of learning and improvement. That’s a pretentious way of saying yes (laughs).

If we’re doing the job right, and staying true to our ethos as a studio, changes will most certainly happen. But those changes will always be in service of making great games even better. I should also point out that any change process will always be measured and highly considerate. These games have solid fan bases made up of people who have invested their hard-earned money, and more importantly, their time and creativity, into creating armies, squadrons, and fleets that are unique reflections of who they are.

We’re a studio made up of people who love and engage in the hobby daily. We deeply understand that kind of investment on a personal level, and we’re committed to honoring and valuing it in everything we do.

Does that include new Star Wars miniatures games? Can we expect to see any additional titles?

Simone: While we’re hyper-focused on our current games, we’re always thinking of new ones, too. Will and I have talked a lot about how we can create cool new Star Wars miniatures games that will excite fans and immerse them in the stories they love so much.

Will: The galaxy far, far away is a really big place with a lot to explore. It doesn’t take Emperor Palpatine’s Force abilities to foresee that this is just the beginning for Star Wars miniatures games.



For more on the Star Wars miniatures transition to Atomic Mass Games, check out our official press release.

 warboss wrote:

LunarSol wrote: I get why people were upset it didn't turn into Legion, but owning both, its less of a figure scale issue and more of a "type of game collection" issue. 3 monopose figure squads don't really translate very far into an army collection.

That's why you can simply come out with new releases in the same scale with greater variety for the people who do care and want that extra poseability (and most importantly are willing to pay for the priviledge). Problem solved! Unless of course the real goal was to force everyone interested to pay for the priveledge in the first place...

One does not simply....

I think any sort of conversion pack would have cost more than just buying the Legion equivalents as is. Like they were selling 3 single pose Fleet Troopers for $18. There's no efficient way to translate that into a conversion pack product that doesn't cost more than the $25 cost of the proper Legion sculpts for the things. That even assumes there's enough interest from the board game crowd that the game was sold to to make the jump to a proper miniatures line. I get the love for IA and I get the desire to reuse its figures, but in the case of IA, it would just be a case of throwing good money after bad to try and make them work.

 ced1106 wrote:
> Do you... maybe, have any kind of hard info about that? I mean, I am working on that line. Or rather, those lines.

I personally don't. I'm passing along what a hardcore L5R LCG player and CCG game designer said, who has some but not deep industry contacts. You can see for yourself how much faith L5R LCG players have in the game from the BGG link I provided. I've seen enough "lifestyle" games from FFG that its not too hard to guess what's more likely to survive and what won't. Certainly, the gaming market cannot handle the number of lifestyle games introduced in the last few years.

I don't think that BGG link is very indicative on the player base as one of the first posts, by a fan of the game but that doesn't discount his point, is that BGG doesn't attract many CCG players so people that just live there don't really have an idea of a game's popularity.

I'd never buy another ffg game given their history of simply dropping popular games and leaving the players with basically a "Smell ya l8r, suckers!" attitude.

I was into their 40k rpg line and it was doing well, then they just dropped it like a rock, leaving the players with a slammed door in the face.

Speakest ye not to me of "wrath and glory" lest I call upon a brother to bring me the flamer. The heavy flamer.

I mean, Xwing, Armada and Legion are Insanely popular games. With dedicated fanbases and i think legion might be the 5th most bought wargame.
You dont have to worry about them being dropped

this has less to do with FFG but licenced games in general

no matter how well it does (or sometimes because it is doing well) if the licence is removed or not extended the game is dead

so no one will know how long it will last
yet no one can take the game from you anyway and as you can download the rules, just always have a copy on your harddrive and the future of your game is save no matter what is going to happen with FFG or the Licence

 Matt Swain wrote:
I'd never buy another ffg game given their history of simply dropping popular games and leaving the players with basically a "Smell ya l8r, suckers!" attitude.

I was into their 40k rpg line and it was doing well, then they just dropped it like a rock, leaving the players with a slammed door in the face.

Speakest ye not to me of "wrath and glory" lest I call upon a brother to bring me the flamer. The heavy flamer.

This one is hard as they pretty much lost the license. We really don't know if it was FFG not wanting to renew, not being able to afford or if GW killed it on their end.

That being said the 40k RPG from them had lots and lots of books. It was pretty well supported until the last year or so (probably because FFG already knew the outcome of the license) and there's not much missing from what their vision of what a 40k RPG should be (as I don't think they ever really wanted to get into playing as Xenos).

> A big part of it was just that Imperial Assault really represented the worst of FFG's excesses in terms of expansion sprawl.

Ah, right. During the end of the CCG glut, you had to have a CCG that was attached to an IP to attract attention from the rest of the other CCG's. Yet some IP's, including SW, have only so much popular content before you start having to sell the less popular stuff. Both Deciper and WotC, btw, released Star Wars CCG's, Decipher's ending in 2001 and WotC's in 2005.

> These games have solid fan bases made up of people who have invested their hard-earned money, and more importantly, their time and creativity, into creating armies, squadrons, and fleets that are unique reflections of who they are.

IIRC, FFG had a 2.0 of X-Wing resulting in some fans upset that they had to buy new cards or something to that effect. At the same time, the game was releasing more and more obscure ships. You ideally don't want to be in a position where you "force your customer to rebuy all the cards", but it's very difficult to do so (and, afaik, we don't have any examples of how AMG would do better). Both WH40K and Magic, the two most popular "lifestyle" games has planned obsolescence built into their selling models.

> Will and I have talked a lot about how we can create cool new Star Wars miniatures games

I guess you guys can tell me if there's room for another SW miniatures game. Is there one? And can it be a "lifestyle" game?

*****

As for L5R LCG, found this discussion on the FFG forums. Here's one of the more extreme comments. More importantly, has this lack of announcements been made for any other FFG product line?

To me the game feels as good as dead. There is no sense that Asmodée wants to support this game anymore (I say this regardless of the internal feelings at FFG for the IP, I'm pretty sure they love what they are doing no matter what). There are no big announcements, no live streams, no teasers of anything, including deluxe expansions. We only get fiction and the expected preview for the next dynasty pack of the current cycle. The contrast with Champions and Arkham is crushingly telling. I remember distinctly early in the game during a livestream when Brad Andres previewed Shinjo Shono and said "you guys won't believe else is coming" -- I liked this kind of excitement at the time. There is absolutely no vibe of that sort anymore. They have not built hype for a very, very long time. If they have no hype to build, they have nothing to sell.

Covid cannot explain everything. My take: when they announced that they would postpone the planned rotation, I believe this meant the game already had run its course in its current incarnation. I'm pretty sure they also know internally that this current form has failed (see what Tyler has done with Skirmish). I think we'll have a 2.0 before a rotation -- or the game dies for real, in the case that Asmodée doesn't want to support competitive games anymore.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/311650-is-this-game-worth-getting-into/

Forgot to mention the Call of Cthulhu LCG as a "lifestyle" games FFG no longer supports, from 2004 to 2015. Not a bad run -- about 3x as long as WotC's Star Wars TCG...!

 Monkeysloth wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
I'd never buy another ffg game given their history of simply dropping popular games and leaving the players with basically a "Smell ya l8r, suckers!" attitude.

I was into their 40k rpg line and it was doing well, then they just dropped it like a rock, leaving the players with a slammed door in the face.

Speakest ye not to me of "wrath and glory" lest I call upon a brother to bring me the flamer. The heavy flamer.

This one is hard as they pretty much lost the license. We really don't know if it was FFG not wanting to renew, not being able to afford or if GW killed it on their end.

That being said the 40k RPG from them had lots and lots of books. It was pretty well supported until the last year or so (probably because FFG already knew the outcome of the license) and there's not much missing from what their vision of what a 40k RPG should be (as I don't think they ever really wanted to get into playing as Xenos).

Grain of salt because I'm rando on the internet, but it was pretty much entirely from GW's side from what I've heard, similar to the loss of the Netrunner license from WotC (which, irritatingly, they still haven't done anything with). FFG was blindsided by both, and had fully expected to be renewing those licenses.

Ugh! Yeah. Yet another risk of an IP game.

FFG's had the "rights" to Call of Cthulhu (CoC is in public domain, but much of what gamers consider CoC is actually from Chaosium) from Chaosium since 2004 or something.

Guess you shouldn't license an IP from a game company that has enough money to put out their own product...?

 Matt Swain wrote:
I'd never buy another ffg game given their history of simply dropping popular games and leaving the players with basically a "Smell ya l8r, suckers!" attitude.

I was into their 40k rpg line and it was doing well, then they just dropped it like a rock, leaving the players with a slammed door in the face.

Speakest ye not to me of "wrath and glory" lest I call upon a brother to bring me the flamer. The heavy flamer.

What made it worse is that really, all the 40k RPGs needed was a final splat book for Only War and a standalone Undivided book for Black Crusade rather than being awkwardly crammed into the Nurgle book.

Their Star Wars RPG line felt very much complete at least and L5R hasn't been taken out and shot just yet.

Overall though, Legion probably is safer with AMG, a dedicated wargames company headed up by former Warmahordes developers. I know I never did more than meekly dip my toe into one box of models after remembering there's always an executioner's axe hovering precariously over any FFG product.

I think the logic there is a little faulty. At this point both FFG and AMG aren't much different to Asmodee than Forge World is to GW.

Assuming that there's no Sword of Damocles hanging over any given property dependant on what logo is now printed on the packaging may result in bitter disappointment.

I loved the interview with the Devs. So much corporate speak and spin! Good stuff.

As a fellow servant of Corporate America, I applaud them and their efforts.

 ced1106 wrote:


As for L5R LCG, found this discussion on the FFG forums. Here's one of the more extreme comments. More importantly, has this lack of announcements been made for any other FFG product line?

To me the game feels as good as dead. There is no sense that Asmodée wants to support this game anymore (I say this regardless of the internal feelings at FFG for the IP, I'm pretty sure they love what they are doing no matter what). There are no big announcements, no live streams, no teasers of anything, including deluxe expansions. We only get fiction and the expected preview for the next dynasty pack of the current cycle. The contrast with Champions and Arkham is crushingly telling. I remember distinctly early in the game during a livestream when Brad Andres previewed Shinjo Shono and said "you guys won't believe else is coming" -- I liked this kind of excitement at the time. There is absolutely no vibe of that sort anymore. They have not built hype for a very, very long time. If they have no hype to build, they have nothing to sell.

Covid cannot explain everything. My take: when they announced that they would postpone the planned rotation, I believe this meant the game already had run its course in its current incarnation. I'm pretty sure they also know internally that this current form has failed (see what Tyler has done with Skirmish). I think we'll have a 2.0 before a rotation -- or the game dies for real, in the case that Asmodée doesn't want to support competitive games anymore.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/311650-is-this-game-worth-getting-into/

FFG has always been bad at communication. Add COVID on top and it's clearly worse. If this was a normal year I'd say the silence is concerning but not out of character for them. They tend to just do a big drop at one time then stop talking about a game until the next release nears. But with COVID it's hard to really say as they could have something awesome ready to go but not talking about it due to all the issues that shipping an manufacturing is having right now and people that say COVID cannot explain everything probably doesn't realize how much the lockdowns earlier in the year messed things up as lots of game companies furloughed people for a quarter and even now there's still issues with distribution being down in lots of places still and maybe not coming back and then manufacturing and shipping. Look at Modiphius and the Elder Scrolls stuff. Their card pack is months late and has been delayed twice buy about a month each time due to port changes after the ship was loaded. It could also mean everything the post you linked fears. It's really hard to know but I don't see much value in proclaiming it dead when there was a released not to long ago. Also with asmodee they keep things close to their chest before announcing its death as they tend to do so you can easily just claim any line owed by asmodee is on its death bed.

Alex Davy has confirmed that he was fired on Monday, terrible shame and a sad day for Legion.

It's De Ja Vu all over again....

You would have thought that no one remembered what happened to DUST and the 40K RPG.

 Grot 6 wrote:
It's De Ja Vu all over again....

You would have thought that no one remembered what happened to DUST and the 40K RPG.

Exactly. And to a lesser extent Mutant Chronicles the Miniatures game. FFG does not have a good track record with table-top minis.

Dust 1947, which I play now, is so much better not being in the hands of FFG (and battle-front for that matter).

 Grot 6 wrote:
It's De Ja Vu all over again....

You would have thought that no one remembered what happened to DUST

The mantic and incredibly difficult to work with creator that burned almost ever bridge possible over 10 years and tried to prevent a KSer from being delivered screwing a lot of backers?

and the 40K RPG.

The license holder, most likely, not allowing for a renewal?


Neither of those things are like this.

He's also apparently told his friends/industry contacts that AMG was willing to take on a couple of people from the FFG team but reluctant to do so (i.e. straight up didn't want to), which is why Luke Eddy and the literal handful of FFG designers that weren't let go will have to apply for a job with AMG instead of just being offered the opportunity.That was apparently a compromise deal struck between Simone Elliott and Will Shick, they would be allowed to apply for the positions if they wanted them but Will would be free to decide who to hire onto his staff based on who he felt would be the best fit with the studio and his and Will Pagani's vision for the future of these games.

Mind you THIS is all hearsay from unconfirmed sources, I do not have the confidence on this that I did with the news of Alex being let go.

> FFG has always been bad at communication.

Yeah, that doesn't sound like a good thing. Then again, I've been backing KS and, if anything, you don't back a creator who's bad at communication.

> you can easily just claim any line owed by asmodee is on its death bed.

That actually describes Asmodee pretty well when it was buying out boardgame companies several years ago. Essentially, it would buy a company for *one* of its franchises (eg. Settlers of Cataan, Small World), then have the company drop the rest of its product lines, sometimes moving the desired IP somewhere else -- sorta like what it's doing with the SW miniatures games. In the case of FFG, this is probably for the better. I don't think anyone's gonna miss Runewars.

fwiw, Mayfair isn't FFG, but you can see how an entire Asmodee *company* ended up on its deathbed.
https://www.flipsidegaming.com/blogs/news/mayfair-games-publisher-of-settlers-of-catan-is-closing-down
https://www.polygon.com/2018/2/18/17013708/best-mayfair-games-tabletop-board-games-settlers-of-catan-star-trek
https://boardgametoday.com/mayfair-games-sees-layoffs-closed/

> The license holder, most likely, not allowing for a renewal?

While you rightfully blame the IP holder for the death of these lifestyle games, that does emphasize the risk of sinking in hundreds of dollars of such a game. Kinda annoying that you'd have to research about the IP holder when you just wanna have fun shooting things. But you have to do that even moreso with crowdfunding projects, so get used to it. Certainly boardgames already know that, if a boardgame company loses the license to a published game, they can't expect reprints of the game.

I'll give a plug, then, to Chaosium again for its licensing of its Cthulhu games to FFG for over 20 years, and FFG since it could have made their own Cthulhu games. And, afaik, FFG's boardgames don't seem to have the IP issues, nor customer discontent, that their longer-term lifestyle games have.

 ced1106 wrote:



The license holder, most likely, not allowing for a renewal?

While you rightfully blame the IP holder for the death of these lifestyle games, that does emphasize the risk of sinking in hundreds of dollars of such a game. Kinda annoying that you'd have to research about the IP holder when you just wanna have fun shooting things. But you have to do that even moreso with crowdfunding projects, so get used to it. Certainly boardgames already know that, if a boardgame company loses the license to a published game, they can't expect reprints of the game.

I agree about the lifestyle games and one needs to be careful about them (though I don't have any issue playing dead games if the core gameplay is good enough). My own example is spending a lot in Infinity but everyone I play games with dropped it as it's just too much of a lifestyle game that needs to be constantly played to even enjoy as otherwise you spend hours looking up rules. Code one did little to address this so we just moved on. I like the figures but I don't know if it's worth keeping around $500 of stuff in my basement incase I want to use them for something else. I'm lucky as the game is still popular and there's some I could easily sell. Though the miniature community is much more likely to buy figures for dead games just to re-use elsewhere so I'm lucky there. I've never been much into CCGs but I have a friend that still play Decipher Star Trek so some of them can still be of value years after death to certain people.

That quote though was about the RPG book which really you only ever need 1-2 books from (depending on the system) to give you years of use and so there's several different conversations in this thread going on.

Isn't losing IP a risk you take whenever you get into a game with IP? No matter the holder?

 Monkeysloth wrote:
This one is hard as they pretty much lost the license. We really don't know if it was FFG not wanting to renew, not being able to afford or if GW killed it on their end.

It was diminishing returns. GW didn't drop FFG, and FFG didn't drop GW. It was a "meet in the middle" situation. Everyone packed up and went home.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
That being said the 40k RPG from them had lots and lots of books. It was pretty well supported until the last year or so (probably because FFG already knew the outcome of the license) and there's not much missing from what their vision of what a 40k RPG should be (as I don't think they ever really wanted to get into playing as Xenos).

Only War and DH2.0 still had room for improvement, and I know what they could have done for at least one more Deathwatch release. I suspect they might have wanted to do a Rogue Trader 2.0, but obviously that never materialised.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
This one is hard as they pretty much lost the license. We really don't know if it was FFG not wanting to renew, not being able to afford or if GW killed it on their end.

It was diminishing returns. GW didn't drop FFG, and FFG didn't drop GW. It was a "meet in the middle" situation. Everyone packed up and went home.

That makes the most sense. There was a really slowdown in RPG sales and they weren't doing any new 40k boardgames since Relic I think?

 Monkeysloth wrote:
That being said the 40k RPG from them had lots and lots of books. It was pretty well supported until the last year or so (probably because FFG already knew the outcome of the license) and there's not much missing from what their vision of what a 40k RPG should be (as I don't think they ever really wanted to get into playing as Xenos).

Only War and DH2.0 still had room for improvement, and I know what they could have done for at least one more Deathwatch release. I suspect they might have wanted to do a Rogue Trader 2.0, but obviously that never materialised.

Even then DH2.0 is pretty compatible with 1.0. It wouldn't be hard to covert things. I only bought DH2.0 after the line ended as I didn't see much reason for it as I actually liked DH1.0's leveling progression. But 2.0 did bring it inline with the FFG version of the system. I don't see much of a reason for RT2.0 (outside of getting people to rebuy) unless they were really going to revamp the system as overall it was pretty solid.

> Isn't losing IP a risk you take whenever you get into a game with IP? No matter the holder?

Eh... sort of. With a "one and done" situation, such as a boardgame with only a few expansions, or maybe a one-shot set of miniatures, it's no big deal. Frex, with the FFG Fallout boardgame, boardgamers may be fine with just two or three expansions, and that's it. Or, with some DOOM miniatures, you were expected to buy the miniatures when they came out, and that's it. Other than, maybe some errata, there's no expectation for continued product release with these sort of games. You buy the game and its expansions, or the miniatures line, and you're done. You don't care if the license holder loses the license, since you're not going to buy more of the licensed product, anyway. You might find some sort of gripe from a latecomer who can't get a copy because the license has expired, but that's about it.

It's different than, say, a lifestyle game where you're expected to drop hundreds of dollars on the game -- and often expected to find another player who has done likewise -- only for the company to no longer continue to produce content for it. As M says, some players are fine with a "dead" CCG or RPG without additional product, some aren't. With FFG, though, it got to the point where customers didn't expect the company to support a lifestyle game, such as Runewars, and adopted a Catch-22 situation where they wouldn't buy Runewars until they saw others buying it, resulting in self-fulfilling prophecy of not enough sales, and FFG dropping the game. Do this enough times, which FFG did, and you get to the point where nobody trusts the company when it releases a new lifestyle game.

This may only be an odd coincidence, (and I can't link to prove it) but earlier this week both GameNerdz and Miniature Market were selling the Arkham Horror LCG Core Box as their Deal of the Day at nearly 50% off. The next day GameNerdz was selling an Armada product as the DotD. Perhaps they have some concerns about the recent changes with Asmodee/FFG/AMG.

Of course, both stores might just need to clear stock. Based on pre-Covid anecdotal evidence among my game group, the only Arkham Horror LCG product readily available was the Core Set. Getting anything other than the current adventure cycle was impossible unless you wanted to pay scalper's prices. And that is my own experience with the LotR LCG: Core easily available any time, but good luck getting anything but the newest cycle. However, whenever FFG does a reprint of an older cycle, it will sell quickly, so the demand is still there despite the LCG being nine years old at this point.

I think it's a valid concern. From the comments we've seen AMG make it does appear they want to make new versions with new rules. If you take the rumor on the previous page with any grain of salt that AMG didn't want any of the old designers that pretty much solidifies that those games will end or new versions will come out.

I don't give much weight to the rumors about that but I do know that egos are real and I'm sure the Wills have very good contracts/partial ownership that would give them some control over this kind of stuff.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Isn't losing IP a risk you take whenever you get into a game with IP? No matter the holder?

Yes, definitely. But generally speaking you have a decent idea of when the license might become an issue - in this case FFG/Asmodee just renewed the license for another 5 years and had a content roadmap approved via Lucasfilm for all three games out through 2023. There was no reason for anyone to expect that something like this would occur right now. You can also usually read the tea leaves a bit if you follow a games development, so if it were 2023 and there were suddenly people leaving FFG for various reasons and there was no discussion of upcoming product, etc. you could reasonably interpret the period of silence to indicate that the license was probably not being renewed well before an announcement was made (as was the case when FFG lost the GW license).

I think it's a valid concern. From the comments we've seen AMG make it does appear they want to make new versions with new rules. If you take the rumor on the previous page with any grain of salt that AMG didn't want any of the old designers that pretty much solidifies that those games will end or new versions will come out.

I don't give much weight to the rumors about that but I do know that egos are real and I'm sure the Wills have very good contracts/partial ownership that would give them some control over this kind of stuff.

I don't know Pagani, but I've met and interacted with Will multiple times - hes a nice enough guy, friendly, etc. but he's also a bit arrogant and has a definite and obvious ego and pride about his work, so I totally believe what I've heard about the situation with AMG taking on FFG folks.

As for what comes next, I think Legion, Armada, and X-Wing as brands will continue - those names mean a lot and they aren't going to throw them away like what has happened in the past when the licenses passed from one holder to another. They still have active and invested communities that Asmodee will not only want to keep but also grow. Likewise the molds and production assets for these games already exist and theres been a lot of investment into that that Asmodee isn't going to allow a gamedev to just throw away and not use because they think they can do better, so the minis aren't going to become obsolete (and they told us as much anyway). But, I think theres a good possibility that the rulesets behind the names that those minis are used with will change pretty dramatically.

I see Legion becoming much more crunchy and character driven in keeping with AMG's design pedigree - the character implementation in Legion thus far has been somewhat subtle and subdued IMO, functioning as a bit of a cog at the center of a machine rather than the driving force behind the army. Between WarmaHordes (via their PP background) and MCP, I think you see that AMG has a penchant for putting characters as the players central and somewhat cinematic focus. In terms of game scope, I think we will see game sizes continue with where they are now as its "battle" scaled but feels a lot like a skirmish so it kind of hits that sweetspot.

Armada I'm less sure of, naval combat is generally seen more as a "thinking mans game" rather than the violent action that AMGs designers have worked around in the past. I suspect that, in keeping with the name Armada, we will see the game rules streamlined and game sizes increased. The game community has gone HAM and collected far larger forces than FFG ever thought people would be willing to, even though the ships were priced with the expectation that people would keep smaller forces. I think AMG will want to capitalize on that and try to drive sales by expanding game sizes so that people are putting more ships down on the table rather than fighting small actions between a handful of ships on each side. This I wouldn't entirely mind though I worry the game would lose some flavor alongside the mechanical balance I enjoy in it.

X-Wing I think is relatively safe just by virtue of having been recently re-released. The game is on a fairly solid footing mechanically - I'm sure there will be tweaks made to it but I don't see any major changes

I wonder about X-Wing. The 2.0 version upset a lot of people. I’m not sure the community would be all that welcoming of a 3.0 in the short term. My anecdotal local evidence is basically no one plays Legion or Armada, and X-Wing is much less popular than it was a few years ago, but still has players.

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
This may only be an odd coincidence, (and I can't link to prove it) but earlier this week both GameNerdz and Miniature Market were selling the Arkham Horror LCG Core Box as their Deal of the Day at nearly 50% off. The next day GameNerdz was selling an Armada product as the DotD. Perhaps they have some concerns about the recent changes with Asmodee/FFG/AMG.

FFG/ANA is currently having a MAP amnesty, protected titles can be sold at whatever discount you feel like.

 Robert Facepalmer wrote:
FFG/ANA is currently having a MAP amnesty, protected titles can be sold at whatever discount you feel like.

So this is a good time to clear excess stock that is normally covered by MAP, got it.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
I think it's a valid concern. From the comments we've seen AMG make it does appear they want to make new versions with new rules. If you take the rumor on the previous page with any grain of salt that AMG didn't want any of the old designers that pretty much solidifies that those games will end or new versions will come out.

I don't give much weight to the rumors about that but I do know that egos are real and I'm sure the Wills have very good contracts/partial ownership that would give them some control over this kind of stuff.

See, I'm not sure how to feel about that kind of thing. On the one hand, if they do make a new version of Legion with a different approach to the rules, that sucks for people who're into "FFG games". On the other hand, from a purely selfish perspective and as someone who doesn't care for "FFG games" much at all, the prospect of a modern SW skirmish game that isn't drowning in cards and tokens and assorted other plastic doodads is very appealing. But on the other other hand, any kind of major shakeup could result in them hemorrhaging players like Warmachine did, and that would see the flow of pretty pretty miniatures slowed down or even cut off entirely.

Bah, and since Asmodee are still the distributor, it's not like the stock issues are going to be fixed either.

MCP absolutely suffers from Cards and tokens, so yeah.....that is still gonna happen no matter what.

I’ve kept an eye on MCP because I’m interested in it, but haven’t played it yet because of the plague. I do constantly see people asking on the Facebook about which tokens are which and showing off sheets of tokens that come with every box. Also asking which of the best upgrade cards come in which box. So yeah, it’s still an “FFG game”.

The biggest problem is that some of the card effects have tokens that go with it. not telling you which is which.
Me and friends have taken to just......writing it on a scrap piece of paper.

There's a lot of highly unnecessary tokens overall. The main one is just the objectives, which are technically unique for every single card, but realistically there's only like 3-4 of them.

Similarly there's a lot of "resource" tokens that aren't in any way unique. Hela has soul tokens she gets when models die she can spend to boost her attacks. Punisher has punishment tokens he gets when models die that he can spend to boost his attacks. Stuff like that.

> This may only be an odd coincidence, (and I can't link to prove it) but earlier this week both GameNerdz and Miniature Market were selling the Arkham Horror LCG Core Box as their Deal of the Day at nearly 50% off. The next day GameNerdz was selling an Armada product as the DotD. Perhaps they have some concerns about the recent changes with Asmodee/FFG/AMG.

Eh, I wouldn't read much into it. As said, there's that MAP amnesty that happens every whenever. Amazon's been carrying FFG games, and having holiday discounts for various FFG games, so mebbe that has something to do with the games on sale at the OLGS. And, of of course, by lowering the prices of *core* sets, you get in the customers who didn't buy the base game earlier because of price, then hook 'em in for the expansions.

> If you take the rumor on the previous page with any grain of salt that AMG didn't want any of the old designers that pretty much solidifies that those games will end or new versions will come out.

Good point. So I guess, for some, it'll be a case of "wait and see" and hold back on purchases of current FFG SW miniatures products...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
This one is hard as they pretty much lost the license. We really don't know if it was FFG not wanting to renew, not being able to afford or if GW killed it on their end.

It was diminishing returns. GW didn't drop FFG, and FFG didn't drop GW. It was a "meet in the middle" situation. Everyone packed up and went home.

Got a source for that?

I’m not sure I believe that it wasn’t simply GW taking back the IP. FFG had just released an LCG (Warhammer conquest, I think?) and had a couple successful and excellent board games with planned expansions (forbidden stars and Warhammer quest card game) that got axed because of it.

It’s a real shame, as FFGs original design Warhammer themed games were really, really good. If you like area control/pseudo 4x games you should really seek out Forbidden Stars if you can find a copy cheap enough to justify. It’s one of my favorites that I play whenever I want an experience like twilight imperium but in half the time.

Back to the original topic- I know people are worried about the miniature games, but I feel FFG wasn’t doing them the most favors anyway. They struck gold by accident with X-wing and never really figured out how to manage it properly. They treated it more like an LCG. No idea how legion is doing since I don’t really like the aesthetic of Star Wars universe ground combat outside the walkers or bounty hunters and mandalorians.

Now I hope that they can put more focus on awesome, original board/card games.

Quasistellar wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
This one is hard as they pretty much lost the license. We really don't know if it was FFG not wanting to renew, not being able to afford or if GW killed it on their end.

It was diminishing returns. GW didn't drop FFG, and FFG didn't drop GW. It was a "meet in the middle" situation. Everyone packed up and went home.

Got a source for that?

H.B.M.C. was a writer on the 40k RPG line for FFG.

I saw this and thought it could go really good or really bad. AMG's miniatures are top notch in detail and assemble well.

The problem I see is that SW Legion is super affordable for a unit where MCP is very expensive for 2 models.

I just hope they don't raise the SWL prices to that of GW units or else I might have to really limit my future collecting.

 Monkeysloth wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
This one is hard as they pretty much lost the license. We really don't know if it was FFG not wanting to renew, not being able to afford or if GW killed it on their end.

It was diminishing returns. GW didn't drop FFG, and FFG didn't drop GW. It was a "meet in the middle" situation. Everyone packed up and went home.

Got a source for that?

H.B.M.C. was a writer on the 40k RPG line for FFG.

Gotcha. Probably just poor timing for FFG then with Conquest releasing when it did (lead times and all that). I think they had only just had it out long enough for one expansion cycle? I can’t remember exactly, but I know I wanted to grab some and couldn’t due to it selling out as soon as the announcement was made.

angel of death 007 wrote:
I saw this and thought it could go really good or really bad. AMG's miniatures are top notch in detail and assemble well.

The problem I see is that SW Legion is super affordable for a unit where MCP is very expensive for 2 models.

I just hope they don't raise the SWL prices to that of GW units or else I might have to really limit my future collecting.

I would argue that Legion is vastly more expensive. MCP probably averages out to 15 dollars for a model, maybe less. But that one model is 10% of your tournament list, or more realistically, 20-33% of any given game. It's one of the most affordable mini games you could get in to.

The core set alone is probably the best value in all of gaming right now

I have to wonder what percentage of the market actually buys minis like that, only as needed for minimum game size. I’ve never met a single person like that.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I have to wonder what percentage of the market actually buys minis like that, only as needed for minimum game size. I’ve never met a single person like that.

Most of the people I gamed with in the 2000s did. The real fanatics (as well as the generally older players with larger collections) didn't, but a lot of the Warhammer and Warmachine players I knew just from LGS gaming tables did exactly that.
They bought to the point value and stopped. This was true of both the newbies and the flavor of the month crowd that would sell/trade when whatever netlist they were aiming for fell out of favor.

WUWU wrote:
I would argue that Legion is vastly more expensive. MCP probably averages out to 15 dollars for a model, maybe less. But that one model is 10% of your tournament list, or more realistically, 20-33% of any given game. It's one of the most affordable mini games you could get in to.

The core set alone is probably the best value in all of gaming right now

MCP is pretty much standard for a starter box and on the expensive end of Skirmish games

Legion is cheap as well if you know what you want and just buy your list (specially if it includes the starter set models)
MCP is liked because it plays fast and does not require lot of models to paint while havin a currently hyped background

Legion is liked because it is the most up to date modern platoon level Skirmish you can get with a decent player base
better games are out there but not in that scale or with harder to find people to play against

BobtheInquisitor wrote:I have to wonder what percentage of the market actually buys minis like that, only as needed for minimum game size. I’ve never met a single person like that.

a lot, hence why small games are so popular, buy an army to play and be done, while stuff like 40k wants you to buy everything and needs you to buy more with ongoing changes
also a reason why people have waited to start Legion or aSoIaF as they want the complete army to be available before they start playing

Quasistellar wrote:
Got a source for that?

The people I worked with at FFG.

Quasistellar wrote:
Probably just poor timing for FFG then with Conquest releasing when it did (lead times and all that). I think they had only just had it out long enough for one expansion cycle? I can’t remember exactly, but I know I wanted to grab some and couldn’t due to it selling out as soon as the announcement was made.

It was poor timing on a lot of things. Those last Dark Heresy and Black Crusade books go for a mint on eBay, as they only ever did one (maybe two) print runs.

The thing I lament the most, other than not being able to write new expansions for the RPGs (obviously!), is the loss of all that artwork. FFG made tons of artwork for the RPGs, and even more for the card games. I wish they'd been able to release that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
Got a source for that?

The people I worked with at FFG.

Quasistellar wrote:
Probably just poor timing for FFG then with Conquest releasing when it did (lead times and all that). I think they had only just had it out long enough for one expansion cycle? I can’t remember exactly, but I know I wanted to grab some and couldn’t due to it selling out as soon as the announcement was made.

It was poor timing on a lot of things. Those last Dark Heresy and Black Crusade books go for a mint on eBay, as they only ever did one (maybe two) print runs.

The thing I lament the most, other than not being able to write new expansions for the RPGs (obviously!), is the loss of all that artwork. FFG made tons of artwork for the RPGs, and even more for the card games. I wish they'd been able to release that.

A true shame. You and the other folks at FFG were doing a great job.

I dunno. I really want to see the new studio succeed, but I am definitely going to grab the last couple of Armada ships I want to get before anything drastic changes.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


The thing I lament the most, other than not being able to write new expansions for the RPGs (obviously!), is the loss of all that artwork. FFG made tons of artwork for the RPGs, and even more for the card games. I wish they'd been able to release that.

I never cared much for 40k until the FFG RPG line and a big part of that was the art. The art in Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy, in my opinion, is better then anything I'd ever seen GW do.

WUWU wrote:

angel of death 007 wrote:
I saw this and thought it could go really good or really bad. AMG's miniatures are top notch in detail and assemble well.

The problem I see is that SW Legion is super affordable for a unit where MCP is very expensive for 2 models.

I just hope they don't raise the SWL prices to that of GW units or else I might have to really limit my future collecting.

I would argue that Legion is vastly more expensive. MCP probably averages out to 15 dollars for a model, maybe less. But that one model is 10% of your tournament list, or more realistically, 20-33% of any given game. It's one of the most affordable mini games you could get in to.

The core set alone is probably the best value in all of gaming right now

I am not overly concerned with either at their current price point. My concern is that they would jack up the price of Legion units as they sit right now they are the most complete units you can buy in any or almost any game system. (meaning comes with everything they need, cards, tokens, rules, and squad options). I just don't want the well we can get $40 for 2 models why are we selling 7-10 models for less. I think that Legion and ASOIF both have excellent model/ unit prices that blow GW out of the water. I like MCP as well but their cost is high if you are a collector.

I do not like the style of FFG or Atomic Mass games where they design the mechanics themselves for maximum monetization with tons of counters, special measuring devices, cards, and custom dice. Just not my taste, but I do not blame the companies for trying and it is a "trend" in the industry.

Do I think the switch to AMG will change this approach? No. I expect them to try and accelerate it.

 Easy E wrote:
I do not like the style of FFG or Atomic Mass games where they design the mechanics themselves for maximum monetization with tons of counters, special measuring devices, cards, and custom dice. Just not my taste, but I do not blame the companies for trying and it is a "trend" in the industry.

Do I think the switch to AMG will change this approach? No. I expect them to try and accelerate it.

I don't really think it's monetization that drives this as I've never seen over priced packs with alternate versions of tokens, measuring sticks dice (probably has for cards somewhere) and more of a way to make it easier to approach playing. You cannot deny how many people who weren't table top gamers went in for x-wing. It was very easy to play and people noticed and are trying to figure out what worked from x-wing that can be applied to other games. While I think you're right it's a trend but that doesn't make it bad as it's smart to learn from success and some things will stick around and others wont. And why I haven't played any of the FFG games outside of one game of x-wing they work really well in the Modiphius games. Even Elder Scrolls which doesn't have measuring devices (just inches) we made measuring sticks for as it's just quicker then a tape measurer though I think Elder Scrolls is the one of the two games that does the easier to play thing right as Fallout has a bit too much on the extra stuff sometimes and approaches things, I think, in the wrong way for the type of game it turned out to be.

Miniature Market Daily Deal for 23 Nov 2020 is the Star Wars: Legion - Clone Wars Core Set, if anyone is interested.

 Monkeysloth wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
I do not like the style of FFG or Atomic Mass games where they design the mechanics themselves for maximum monetization with tons of counters, special measuring devices, cards, and custom dice. Just not my taste, but I do not blame the companies for trying and it is a "trend" in the industry.

Do I think the switch to AMG will change this approach? No. I expect them to try and accelerate it.

I don't really think it's monetization that drives this as I've never seen over priced packs with alternate versions of tokens, measuring sticks dice (probably has for cards somewhere) and more of a way to make it easier to approach playing. You cannot deny how many people who weren't table top gamers went in for x-wing. It was very easy to play and people noticed and are trying to figure out what worked from x-wing that can be applied to other games. While I think you're right it's a trend but that doesn't make it bad as it's smart to learn from success and some things will stick around and others wont. And why I haven't played any of the FFG games outside of one game of x-wing they work really well in the Modiphius games. Even Elder Scrolls which doesn't have measuring devices (just inches) we made measuring sticks for as it's just quicker then a tape measurer though I think Elder Scrolls is the one of the two games that does the easier to play thing right as Fallout has a bit too much on the extra stuff sometimes and approaches things, I think, in the wrong way for the type of game it turned out to be.

Well, regarding X-wing I would argue its success is making a CCG use Models more than it being a model game that uses cards to aid play.

Smart really. That allows greater cross-over appeal to a wider demo, so it was smart from a business perspective. However, just not the game **I** wanted to play.

That doesn't make it bad, and adding widgets, tokens, cards, etc doesn't make a game bad either. Just not the game **I** want to play.

Hardcore disagree with that assessment, its nothing at all like a CCG and very much a model game that uses cards to aid play.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Hardcore disagree with that assessment, its nothing at all like a CCG and very much a model game that uses cards to aid play.

I think the issue is one of perception, created by the fact that the "face" of FFG games that most people see is the idea of "organised play", where cards do not so much aid play as they do define it utterly.

There's nothing actually preventing you from playing X-Wing or Legion with a single copy of each card, or with no cards at all and just an online listbuilder, but the way the game is presented is according to the organised play rules which demand you have a card for every use of whatever is on that card. If you want three Stormtrooper units you need three Stormtrooper unit cards. If you want to give them all a piece of gear or a weapon upgrade, you need three of those as well. At least, that's the impression you get if you play in a lot of stores or read the forums or the FB groups, because they all operate on the assumption that "organised play" is the baseline that everyone will be adhering to(and which, frankly, a lot of people will insist on adhering to even in casual games, so it's not an entirely unfounded perception).

When someone sees the frequent posts online of people talking about buying whole unit boxes just for this or that upgrade card because they "need" extra copies, they're hardly unreasonable if they're reminded more of a purchase-focused CCG than a typical wargame.

AMG have released a document about their plans for OP going forward;
https://www.atomicmassgames.com/star-wars-op-message

Basically the same as before but with a skew toward narrative events.

In Legion, at least, the cards are *not* just play aids. Each round the players pick a command card in secret and reveal them together, you'd struggle to replicate that without cards. Also various upgrades and force powers etc have to be tapped when used and only refresh after a recovery action, which again, you'd struggle without the cards. Then you have the mission drafting mechanic that you also need cards for. Generally for Legion you really need the cards.

I'll grant that the cards help, but they're not really needed except by the strictures of organized play, and organized play's infestation into all other types of playing. The exhausting and refreshing thing aren't actually new mechanics - miniatures games have had things like that for decades at this point - we just used to track them with tokens, or memory, or on our army lists.

The command cards and activation mechanic are definitely things are a crucial part of the game, not a memory aid. But they're also not the cards that make you feel like you're buying a box just for the card - you can't use Han's cards without Han, etc. The Luke2 and Vader2 models and cards blur that distinction a bit, though.

Got to agree with Longstrider. That's certainly my experience with Legion. I only play casually and tokens are a reasonable universal substitute for marking certain mechanics, whether they're depleted, ongoing or need a refresh. For all the talk of drowning in tokens in FFG games, individual units don't usually have more than two things to keep track of and between color-coded and/or appropriately placed tokens and your memory there's precious little room for confusion, especially since you announce your actions to your opponent and therefore have another check in place.

Legion, in my experience, can be very reasonably played as a traditional miniatures game. You don't need to indulge in this CCG gotta buy multiple copies nonsense unless you're stuck in a group that's gone off the deep end.

Unless I buy the model pack for X-wing, I do not have rules to play the game. Same with Legion.

Imagine I want to play Sorry! I get the box set, and they give me 3 red pawns, and 3 Blue pawns. They also give me the deck of cards only minus Sorry cards, the backwards 4 and the Split-able 7 cards. If I go buy the 4th red Pawn, I can get the backwards 4 cards for the deck, and if I buy the 4th Blue Pawn I get the Split-able 7's card. If I buy the whole Yellow Pawns box set of 4 pawns then I get the Sorry cards for the deck. Are we actually playing Sorry! with just the board, limited pawn sets, and minus half the cards?

That example is what it is like to buy the rules for X-wing. You get some basic mechanics, but more than half the mechanics only arrive if you buy the "Pawn" packs.

Call me old fashion, but I recall a time when a games rules all were in the instructions and not sold with the pawns. Now, I know GW (and others) use Splat books to "expand" the rules and make the game playable. I am not saying this is better. I prefer my games to be complete when I buy the "Core Rules".

So do you buy a new Core rule book when they release new models for the game?

 LunarSol wrote:
So do you buy a new Core rule book when they release new models for the game?

No, but X-Wing does have (or did, I dropped out near the end of 1st edition) the problem where new upgrade cards are released in new ship packs, and if you want that card the only way to get it is buy a ship you may not have interest in using. Yeah yeah, you can say "but you can download it from internet" and all that, but if you are playing in official events, they required you to have the actual cards, at least back then.

That was the one big downfall of their system.

What I like about X-Wing was you can buy the game piecemeal - you get everything you need for the ship in one self-contained package (that's all ready to go from the box). Owning various type of ships expands the options you can deploy. If you wanted one specific card though, you had to either buy a specific ship or get it from the likes of e-bay.

Problem is, when 2.0 came along, you had to repurchase all the cards in one fell swoop if you had an existing collection. That was financially painful if you'd built up a huge collection like I had. Unfortunately, I don't think there is really much that could have been done about it if you wanted physical copies. I believe though, that FFG has begun to recognize the issue with "buy the ship for the upgrade", and is starting to put out a couple card-only packs to cover the popular cards for those who don't want to buy a ship they don't want.

Yet, despite the presence of the cards, it doesn't play like a CCG at all (I despise CCGs in general). The cards are just a record sheet; if you can't maneuver your ship for a shot on the board, you'll never get to use your load out. As I've described the game to others, its often a game of millimeters and what's going on the board is extremely important.

 Valander wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
So do you buy a new Core rule book when they release new models for the game?

No, but X-Wing does have (or did, I dropped out near the end of 1st edition) the problem where new upgrade cards are released in new ship packs, and if you want that card the only way to get it is buy a ship you may not have interest in using. Yeah yeah, you can say "but you can download it from internet" and all that, but if you are playing in official events, they required you to have the actual cards, at least back then.

Oh yeah. The X-Wing model is a totally different story I agree. I didn't play much by the end of 1st either and mostly upgraded to 2nd as a way to clean my collection to something of a clean slate.

I think the fear of the X-Wing scheme perpetuates to games it doesn't really cover. Legion is nothing like it for example and chasing it competitively seems pretty similar to any other game out there. Scars run deep though.

I haven't bought a FFG product since they basically said "Smell ya later." to the 40k rpg players that had bought into their very well made and written line there.

Yes yes I know it was a business decision, i still got the dirty end of the stick and didn't appreciate it.

How'd you get the 'dirty end of the stick?' Did they take stuff away from you?

Voss wrote:
How'd you get the 'dirty end of the stick?' Did they take stuff away from you?

SIGH. I just felt that I'd gotten into the stuff, and suddenly they just said "Oh, new project! Hey, loyal customers, smell ya later!"

I'm not going to explain it better than that, i resented their lack f loyalty to their customers.,

Did they drop the license or did GW revoke it? I don't remember the details.

 Eldarain wrote:
Did they drop the license or did GW revoke it? I don't remember the details.

AIR, neither said said anything, but insiders said that FFG wanted to shift efforts and resources to the new SW line.

Vaguely remember it being a bit of both.

This isn't, however, just a FFG/GW thing. It's a license thing. If either party decides not to renew the license, the customer is SOL. Only way to avoid it is to not buy a license product you expect to be supported or new content released for a long period of time.

And, even if a company owns the IP, they may decide to no longer support it. Here, FFG definitely has a reputation (see Runewars).

Dunno what the solution is. As a boardgamer, I have a closetful of games that haven't been played yet, some of which are KS games that have at least a year of gameplay. So, if a game company drops support for a game, there's always the next game in the queue. :/

I just can't trust the FFG and now who they are tossing it off to. They burned me out with the shift from 1st to 2nd edition X wing. I had and have many models from it but I wasn't going to spend hundreds to bring all my stuff up to date with the sweeping changes.

What people in my area got into the game for was the ease of play and the low start up cost. That's been increasing and with the constant churn it became difficult to call it cheap towards the end. Then the " hey, spends hundreds more to stay legal " just was the nail in the coffin for play in my area.

Add to all that FFG can seemingly at whim just toss something out, or show they don't care to burn a whole player base to evolve to a new edition, left the bad taste in my mouth.

Hope this all goes well but I have lost faith with them.

 Matt Swain wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Did they drop the license or did GW revoke it? I don't remember the details.

AIR, neither said said anything, but insiders said that FFG wanted to shift efforts and resources to the new SW line.

This is literally covered in the previous page of this thread by someone who worked on the 40k RPG. It was a mutually agreed end as sale on FFG ends for all the 40k stuff had gone pretty flat.

No one should blame FFG for ending the RPG that pretty much wasn't selling. The 2.0 of Dark Hearsay didn't revive the line like FFG hoped and even after all this time I can still find a lot of the books for like $5. It's also hard to claim you got the screwed over when there's over 50 titles still available through drivethroughRPG. More then enough to keep any group going for years upon years.

This isn't like Wrath and Glory where they released like one book and then gave up.

I was not pleased when they raised all the prices by a third for the new edition. Since then I’ve been doing alright waiting for their ships to hit clearance to buy them...but I get the feeling most other FFG customers are, too, which is not exactly sustainable.

 Stormonu wrote:
That was the one big downfall of their system.

What I like about X-Wing was you can buy the game piecemeal - you get everything you need for the ship in one self-contained package (that's all ready to go from the box). Owning various type of ships expands the options you can deploy. If you wanted one specific card though, you had to either buy a specific ship or get it from the likes of e-bay.

When not taken too far, I honestly don't know if this was a downfall of the game, or part of its commercial success. Purchasing a new ship meant not only getting something with different manoeuvres, a different statline and thus a different role and effect on the table, but the cross-compatible cards that came with it also meant some ship you bought 2 years ago suddenly has new options, in some cases considerably changing how you'd play it. The problematic ones were those upgrades that were either considered particularly powerful (and I felt such ideas quickly spread in the X-Wing community, given the strong competitive scene and the fact that any player could quickly switch cards, ships or factions on a whim, something you don't get nearly as much in a typical miniature wargame where you have to spend more money and infinitely more time building and painting your army), or those that were quite clearly "meant" for another ship. Then again, part of the problem is a larger unwillingness to pay for a card than for a mini, and in many cases the cards could not just be printed, but just be ignored anyway: during my days in the competitive scene at least, there were quite some different playstyles in the meta, and it's not like you needed X to win - at worst, you kind of needed X to make ship Y useful.

I believe though, that FFG has begun to recognize the issue with "buy the ship for the upgrade", and is starting to put out a couple card-only packs to cover the popular cards for those who don't want to buy a ship they don't want.

At least in the early days of 2nd ed, I remember reading they also put some more effort in selling a ship with more relevant cards, thus further reducing the need to buy something else for a card alone. I can imagine this being hardly sustainable in the long run though, since, again, what keeps the game fresh is adding new upgrades with new ships that are compatible with older ships, and you can't just keep repackaging the old ones with newly released cards (besides which, existing players specifically don't want to rebuy that ship). Card packs are certainly some solution, although even then you'll of course end up paying for things you don't want.

All that said, it didn't appear too problematic to simply use own printed cards in my local scene. I don't recall often doing it myself though, as there were hundreds of combinations available with the cards I already had anyway...

My experience of X-Wing is that 2e ships are far less upgrade-dependent than 1e ships. The 1e upgrade stacks that pushed the alpha-strike ordnance game have been nerfed or the cards don't exist, and you tend to go into battle with 1-3 upgrades per ship instead of 5-7.

Voss wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I have to wonder what percentage of the market actually buys minis like that, only as needed for minimum game size. I’ve never met a single person like that.

Most of the people I gamed with in the 2000s did. The real fanatics (as well as the generally older players with larger collections) didn't, but a lot of the Warhammer and Warmachine players I knew just from LGS gaming tables did exactly that.
They bought to the point value and stopped. This was true of both the newbies and the flavor of the month crowd that would sell/trade when whatever netlist they were aiming for fell out of favor.

In Fantasy/40k I definitely did that.
Bought everything I wanted, to fill up to a certain size list, or carry case in many cases, where I would do custom foam to fit everything exactly.
Thus preventing me from carrying on building the army.

But.... I could then indeed start a new army! (Whether the first was finished being painted - or in some cases bought)


It’s a bit harder with other size games or multiple warband games like Underworlds


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the discussion of Xwing above with the card purchase in boosters with a model sounds a bit like GWs model for Underworlds too..
To stay current you need more cards etc..

 Monkeysloth wrote:
... even after all this time I can still find a lot of the books for like $5.

Where are you finding 40RPG books for $5?

 LunarSol wrote:
So do you buy a new Core rule book when they release new models for the game?

No. I got off the GW merry-go-round a long time ago.

Instead, I buy games that don't try to jerk me around like that OR just make my own games.

This 'sale' looks to have been the reason why the X-wing app and squadron builder were left to rot.
A week after the announcement, the website is replaced, and the app relaunched.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
... even after all this time I can still find a lot of the books for like $5.

Where are you finding 40RPG books for $5?

I think he means $5 each (USD). Of course, there's always Humble Bundles, too.

If they fix the %$^&* X-Wing app, I'll be happy.