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 Easy E wrote:
I do not like the style of FFG or Atomic Mass games where they design the mechanics themselves for maximum monetization with tons of counters, special measuring devices, cards, and custom dice. Just not my taste, but I do not blame the companies for trying and it is a "trend" in the industry.

Do I think the switch to AMG will change this approach? No. I expect them to try and accelerate it.

I don't really think it's monetization that drives this as I've never seen over priced packs with alternate versions of tokens, measuring sticks dice (probably has for cards somewhere) and more of a way to make it easier to approach playing. You cannot deny how many people who weren't table top gamers went in for x-wing. It was very easy to play and people noticed and are trying to figure out what worked from x-wing that can be applied to other games. While I think you're right it's a trend but that doesn't make it bad as it's smart to learn from success and some things will stick around and others wont. And why I haven't played any of the FFG games outside of one game of x-wing they work really well in the Modiphius games. Even Elder Scrolls which doesn't have measuring devices (just inches) we made measuring sticks for as it's just quicker then a tape measurer though I think Elder Scrolls is the one of the two games that does the easier to play thing right as Fallout has a bit too much on the extra stuff sometimes and approaches things, I think, in the wrong way for the type of game it turned out to be.

Miniature Market Daily Deal for 23 Nov 2020 is the Star Wars: Legion - Clone Wars Core Set, if anyone is interested.

 Monkeysloth wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
I do not like the style of FFG or Atomic Mass games where they design the mechanics themselves for maximum monetization with tons of counters, special measuring devices, cards, and custom dice. Just not my taste, but I do not blame the companies for trying and it is a "trend" in the industry.

Do I think the switch to AMG will change this approach? No. I expect them to try and accelerate it.

I don't really think it's monetization that drives this as I've never seen over priced packs with alternate versions of tokens, measuring sticks dice (probably has for cards somewhere) and more of a way to make it easier to approach playing. You cannot deny how many people who weren't table top gamers went in for x-wing. It was very easy to play and people noticed and are trying to figure out what worked from x-wing that can be applied to other games. While I think you're right it's a trend but that doesn't make it bad as it's smart to learn from success and some things will stick around and others wont. And why I haven't played any of the FFG games outside of one game of x-wing they work really well in the Modiphius games. Even Elder Scrolls which doesn't have measuring devices (just inches) we made measuring sticks for as it's just quicker then a tape measurer though I think Elder Scrolls is the one of the two games that does the easier to play thing right as Fallout has a bit too much on the extra stuff sometimes and approaches things, I think, in the wrong way for the type of game it turned out to be.

Well, regarding X-wing I would argue its success is making a CCG use Models more than it being a model game that uses cards to aid play.

Smart really. That allows greater cross-over appeal to a wider demo, so it was smart from a business perspective. However, just not the game **I** wanted to play.

That doesn't make it bad, and adding widgets, tokens, cards, etc doesn't make a game bad either. Just not the game **I** want to play.

Hardcore disagree with that assessment, its nothing at all like a CCG and very much a model game that uses cards to aid play.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Hardcore disagree with that assessment, its nothing at all like a CCG and very much a model game that uses cards to aid play.

I think the issue is one of perception, created by the fact that the "face" of FFG games that most people see is the idea of "organised play", where cards do not so much aid play as they do define it utterly.

There's nothing actually preventing you from playing X-Wing or Legion with a single copy of each card, or with no cards at all and just an online listbuilder, but the way the game is presented is according to the organised play rules which demand you have a card for every use of whatever is on that card. If you want three Stormtrooper units you need three Stormtrooper unit cards. If you want to give them all a piece of gear or a weapon upgrade, you need three of those as well. At least, that's the impression you get if you play in a lot of stores or read the forums or the FB groups, because they all operate on the assumption that "organised play" is the baseline that everyone will be adhering to(and which, frankly, a lot of people will insist on adhering to even in casual games, so it's not an entirely unfounded perception).

When someone sees the frequent posts online of people talking about buying whole unit boxes just for this or that upgrade card because they "need" extra copies, they're hardly unreasonable if they're reminded more of a purchase-focused CCG than a typical wargame.

AMG have released a document about their plans for OP going forward;
https://www.atomicmassgames.com/star-wars-op-message

Basically the same as before but with a skew toward narrative events.

In Legion, at least, the cards are *not* just play aids. Each round the players pick a command card in secret and reveal them together, you'd struggle to replicate that without cards. Also various upgrades and force powers etc have to be tapped when used and only refresh after a recovery action, which again, you'd struggle without the cards. Then you have the mission drafting mechanic that you also need cards for. Generally for Legion you really need the cards.

I'll grant that the cards help, but they're not really needed except by the strictures of organized play, and organized play's infestation into all other types of playing. The exhausting and refreshing thing aren't actually new mechanics - miniatures games have had things like that for decades at this point - we just used to track them with tokens, or memory, or on our army lists.

The command cards and activation mechanic are definitely things are a crucial part of the game, not a memory aid. But they're also not the cards that make you feel like you're buying a box just for the card - you can't use Han's cards without Han, etc. The Luke2 and Vader2 models and cards blur that distinction a bit, though.

Got to agree with Longstrider. That's certainly my experience with Legion. I only play casually and tokens are a reasonable universal substitute for marking certain mechanics, whether they're depleted, ongoing or need a refresh. For all the talk of drowning in tokens in FFG games, individual units don't usually have more than two things to keep track of and between color-coded and/or appropriately placed tokens and your memory there's precious little room for confusion, especially since you announce your actions to your opponent and therefore have another check in place.

Legion, in my experience, can be very reasonably played as a traditional miniatures game. You don't need to indulge in this CCG gotta buy multiple copies nonsense unless you're stuck in a group that's gone off the deep end.

Unless I buy the model pack for X-wing, I do not have rules to play the game. Same with Legion.

Imagine I want to play Sorry! I get the box set, and they give me 3 red pawns, and 3 Blue pawns. They also give me the deck of cards only minus Sorry cards, the backwards 4 and the Split-able 7 cards. If I go buy the 4th red Pawn, I can get the backwards 4 cards for the deck, and if I buy the 4th Blue Pawn I get the Split-able 7's card. If I buy the whole Yellow Pawns box set of 4 pawns then I get the Sorry cards for the deck. Are we actually playing Sorry! with just the board, limited pawn sets, and minus half the cards?

That example is what it is like to buy the rules for X-wing. You get some basic mechanics, but more than half the mechanics only arrive if you buy the "Pawn" packs.

Call me old fashion, but I recall a time when a games rules all were in the instructions and not sold with the pawns. Now, I know GW (and others) use Splat books to "expand" the rules and make the game playable. I am not saying this is better. I prefer my games to be complete when I buy the "Core Rules".

So do you buy a new Core rule book when they release new models for the game?

 LunarSol wrote:
So do you buy a new Core rule book when they release new models for the game?

No, but X-Wing does have (or did, I dropped out near the end of 1st edition) the problem where new upgrade cards are released in new ship packs, and if you want that card the only way to get it is buy a ship you may not have interest in using. Yeah yeah, you can say "but you can download it from internet" and all that, but if you are playing in official events, they required you to have the actual cards, at least back then.

That was the one big downfall of their system.

What I like about X-Wing was you can buy the game piecemeal - you get everything you need for the ship in one self-contained package (that's all ready to go from the box). Owning various type of ships expands the options you can deploy. If you wanted one specific card though, you had to either buy a specific ship or get it from the likes of e-bay.

Problem is, when 2.0 came along, you had to repurchase all the cards in one fell swoop if you had an existing collection. That was financially painful if you'd built up a huge collection like I had. Unfortunately, I don't think there is really much that could have been done about it if you wanted physical copies. I believe though, that FFG has begun to recognize the issue with "buy the ship for the upgrade", and is starting to put out a couple card-only packs to cover the popular cards for those who don't want to buy a ship they don't want.

Yet, despite the presence of the cards, it doesn't play like a CCG at all (I despise CCGs in general). The cards are just a record sheet; if you can't maneuver your ship for a shot on the board, you'll never get to use your load out. As I've described the game to others, its often a game of millimeters and what's going on the board is extremely important.

 Valander wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
So do you buy a new Core rule book when they release new models for the game?

No, but X-Wing does have (or did, I dropped out near the end of 1st edition) the problem where new upgrade cards are released in new ship packs, and if you want that card the only way to get it is buy a ship you may not have interest in using. Yeah yeah, you can say "but you can download it from internet" and all that, but if you are playing in official events, they required you to have the actual cards, at least back then.

Oh yeah. The X-Wing model is a totally different story I agree. I didn't play much by the end of 1st either and mostly upgraded to 2nd as a way to clean my collection to something of a clean slate.

I think the fear of the X-Wing scheme perpetuates to games it doesn't really cover. Legion is nothing like it for example and chasing it competitively seems pretty similar to any other game out there. Scars run deep though.

I haven't bought a FFG product since they basically said "Smell ya later." to the 40k rpg players that had bought into their very well made and written line there.

Yes yes I know it was a business decision, i still got the dirty end of the stick and didn't appreciate it.

How'd you get the 'dirty end of the stick?' Did they take stuff away from you?

Voss wrote:
How'd you get the 'dirty end of the stick?' Did they take stuff away from you?

SIGH. I just felt that I'd gotten into the stuff, and suddenly they just said "Oh, new project! Hey, loyal customers, smell ya later!"

I'm not going to explain it better than that, i resented their lack f loyalty to their customers.,

Did they drop the license or did GW revoke it? I don't remember the details.

 Eldarain wrote:
Did they drop the license or did GW revoke it? I don't remember the details.

AIR, neither said said anything, but insiders said that FFG wanted to shift efforts and resources to the new SW line.

Vaguely remember it being a bit of both.

This isn't, however, just a FFG/GW thing. It's a license thing. If either party decides not to renew the license, the customer is SOL. Only way to avoid it is to not buy a license product you expect to be supported or new content released for a long period of time.

And, even if a company owns the IP, they may decide to no longer support it. Here, FFG definitely has a reputation (see Runewars).

Dunno what the solution is. As a boardgamer, I have a closetful of games that haven't been played yet, some of which are KS games that have at least a year of gameplay. So, if a game company drops support for a game, there's always the next game in the queue. :/

I just can't trust the FFG and now who they are tossing it off to. They burned me out with the shift from 1st to 2nd edition X wing. I had and have many models from it but I wasn't going to spend hundreds to bring all my stuff up to date with the sweeping changes.

What people in my area got into the game for was the ease of play and the low start up cost. That's been increasing and with the constant churn it became difficult to call it cheap towards the end. Then the " hey, spends hundreds more to stay legal " just was the nail in the coffin for play in my area.

Add to all that FFG can seemingly at whim just toss something out, or show they don't care to burn a whole player base to evolve to a new edition, left the bad taste in my mouth.

Hope this all goes well but I have lost faith with them.

 Matt Swain wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
Did they drop the license or did GW revoke it? I don't remember the details.

AIR, neither said said anything, but insiders said that FFG wanted to shift efforts and resources to the new SW line.

This is literally covered in the previous page of this thread by someone who worked on the 40k RPG. It was a mutually agreed end as sale on FFG ends for all the 40k stuff had gone pretty flat.

No one should blame FFG for ending the RPG that pretty much wasn't selling. The 2.0 of Dark Hearsay didn't revive the line like FFG hoped and even after all this time I can still find a lot of the books for like $5. It's also hard to claim you got the screwed over when there's over 50 titles still available through drivethroughRPG. More then enough to keep any group going for years upon years.

This isn't like Wrath and Glory where they released like one book and then gave up.

I was not pleased when they raised all the prices by a third for the new edition. Since then I’ve been doing alright waiting for their ships to hit clearance to buy them...but I get the feeling most other FFG customers are, too, which is not exactly sustainable.

 Stormonu wrote:
That was the one big downfall of their system.

What I like about X-Wing was you can buy the game piecemeal - you get everything you need for the ship in one self-contained package (that's all ready to go from the box). Owning various type of ships expands the options you can deploy. If you wanted one specific card though, you had to either buy a specific ship or get it from the likes of e-bay.

When not taken too far, I honestly don't know if this was a downfall of the game, or part of its commercial success. Purchasing a new ship meant not only getting something with different manoeuvres, a different statline and thus a different role and effect on the table, but the cross-compatible cards that came with it also meant some ship you bought 2 years ago suddenly has new options, in some cases considerably changing how you'd play it. The problematic ones were those upgrades that were either considered particularly powerful (and I felt such ideas quickly spread in the X-Wing community, given the strong competitive scene and the fact that any player could quickly switch cards, ships or factions on a whim, something you don't get nearly as much in a typical miniature wargame where you have to spend more money and infinitely more time building and painting your army), or those that were quite clearly "meant" for another ship. Then again, part of the problem is a larger unwillingness to pay for a card than for a mini, and in many cases the cards could not just be printed, but just be ignored anyway: during my days in the competitive scene at least, there were quite some different playstyles in the meta, and it's not like you needed X to win - at worst, you kind of needed X to make ship Y useful.

I believe though, that FFG has begun to recognize the issue with "buy the ship for the upgrade", and is starting to put out a couple card-only packs to cover the popular cards for those who don't want to buy a ship they don't want.

At least in the early days of 2nd ed, I remember reading they also put some more effort in selling a ship with more relevant cards, thus further reducing the need to buy something else for a card alone. I can imagine this being hardly sustainable in the long run though, since, again, what keeps the game fresh is adding new upgrades with new ships that are compatible with older ships, and you can't just keep repackaging the old ones with newly released cards (besides which, existing players specifically don't want to rebuy that ship). Card packs are certainly some solution, although even then you'll of course end up paying for things you don't want.

All that said, it didn't appear too problematic to simply use own printed cards in my local scene. I don't recall often doing it myself though, as there were hundreds of combinations available with the cards I already had anyway...

My experience of X-Wing is that 2e ships are far less upgrade-dependent than 1e ships. The 1e upgrade stacks that pushed the alpha-strike ordnance game have been nerfed or the cards don't exist, and you tend to go into battle with 1-3 upgrades per ship instead of 5-7.

Voss wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I have to wonder what percentage of the market actually buys minis like that, only as needed for minimum game size. I’ve never met a single person like that.

Most of the people I gamed with in the 2000s did. The real fanatics (as well as the generally older players with larger collections) didn't, but a lot of the Warhammer and Warmachine players I knew just from LGS gaming tables did exactly that.
They bought to the point value and stopped. This was true of both the newbies and the flavor of the month crowd that would sell/trade when whatever netlist they were aiming for fell out of favor.

In Fantasy/40k I definitely did that.
Bought everything I wanted, to fill up to a certain size list, or carry case in many cases, where I would do custom foam to fit everything exactly.
Thus preventing me from carrying on building the army.

But.... I could then indeed start a new army! (Whether the first was finished being painted - or in some cases bought)


It’s a bit harder with other size games or multiple warband games like Underworlds


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the discussion of Xwing above with the card purchase in boosters with a model sounds a bit like GWs model for Underworlds too..
To stay current you need more cards etc..

 Monkeysloth wrote:
... even after all this time I can still find a lot of the books for like $5.

Where are you finding 40RPG books for $5?

 LunarSol wrote:
So do you buy a new Core rule book when they release new models for the game?

No. I got off the GW merry-go-round a long time ago.

Instead, I buy games that don't try to jerk me around like that OR just make my own games.

This 'sale' looks to have been the reason why the X-wing app and squadron builder were left to rot.
A week after the announcement, the website is replaced, and the app relaunched.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:
... even after all this time I can still find a lot of the books for like $5.

Where are you finding 40RPG books for $5?

I think he means $5 each (USD). Of course, there's always Humble Bundles, too.

If they fix the %$^&* X-Wing app, I'll be happy.