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Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/18 22:35:49


Post by: Humble82


So I have had my death guard since the start of 8th and to this day still love playing them. My only wish however is that with the new codex, they include many of the standard CSM options such as the daemon engines etc a bit spike they did with the likes of Blood angels etc gaining the vanilla space marine units a few years back.

Why?

Well because it would be awesome and allow me to buy more. I get that some may be thematically wrong (eg, Heldrake is arguably too fast for Death Guard) but they would make awesome options and not involve GW needing to actually do anything, just add them to a rules book (as compared to new models, designing, moulds, tooling costs etc).

I worry they might fob us off with the Heroes set and claim that to be our new release for 9th however. We’re months into 9th and they are still releasing new SM stuff so perhaps they already blew their development budget for the edition.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/18 23:28:19


Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli


Even as a Black Legion player I don't really mind Death Guard, or Thousand Sons for that matter, having basically access to everything in the CSM arsenal. However, there is the argument that what drawbacks do those legions have if they have access to everything plus Cult Marines as troops and extra stuff. There certainly could more units made available to GD and TS. Then it is a matter of what. Unfortunately, I don't think regular Chaos Space Marines would ever make the cut since the separated legions already have a nice, at least compared to other CSM, selection of Troop options.

As much I as wouldn't relish buying a codex and supplement, I would have preferred GW went the same route as loyalist space marines with a main codex and legion supplement. With the Death Guard codex being a codex, it doesn't look like that will be the case this edition. Which is also fine by me saving me from buying an extra book. Codex: Chaos Space Marines already gets called the Black Legion codex anyways. It doesn't really help the other legions lumped in there though.

I suppose the best that can be hoped for is a C:CSM that has a nice selection of Legion/Warband Tactics like loyalist Chapter Tactics. With that, a player could build a Nurgle-focused CSM warband that complements the Death Guard and ally in a Death Guard detachment of the units C:CSM absolutely don't have or vice versa. Unfortunately, outside Open Play games I don't see a future where the OP gets all the unit options they want for a pure Death Guard army anymore.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2206/12/28 12:08:33


Post by: Nithaniel


I thought the same as you when I started DG but now I have changed my mind. I see DG as an independent faction of chaos. I see them like admech who had a similar problem of limited model line and now they've got loads of new stuff. I would rather we get new models with proper Nurgle treatment.

I think new models is very likely too as the FW compendium hints at a new keyword. We know we are getting the new lord of virulence model so I would hope for another daemon engine and some kind of infantry based heavy support unit.

Right now the PBC's and haulers and drones were enough of a difference that it feels better to wait for new stuff than rely on old stuff.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 13:11:52


Post by: BrianDavion


I'd favor this with some cavets, some of the CSM stuff should defiantly remain with the death guard. (havoks for instance) others however are IMHO not really terriably well suited. bikers and raptors for example don't strike me as terriably well suited to the death guard. some stuff though makes no sense, things like predators etc. no reason for the death guard not to have them


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 13:21:02


Post by: Marshal Loss


To be honest, as somebody who plays both DG & vanilla CSM, I'd much rather keep them separate. Keeps the two thematically distinct and more equivalents (e.g. DG Havocs) can be added in to the DG book over time.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 13:22:58


Post by: mrFickle


I can see an argument for some level of cross over but I think it would only be where their routes go back to the original legions. My understanding is that mortarian has kept the death guard as a self contained army seperate from abbadon and the other legions. So over 10k years with focused support of pappa nurgle then it doesn’t surprise me that they are very different.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 13:50:42


Post by: Dysartes


BrianDavion wrote:
I'd favor this with some cavets, some of the CSM stuff should defiantly remain with the death guard. (havoks for instance) others however are IMHO not really terriably well suited. bikers and raptors for example don't strike me as terriably well suited to the death guard. some stuff though makes no sense, things like predators etc. no reason for the death guard not to have them


Isn't Morty meant to disapprove on man-portably heavy weapons, for some reason? I could see a Havok-esque unit where everyone (possibly except the Champion) has a special weapon, though, as a Death Guard alternative.

There are some core CSM kits I could see the DG being given access to, though in at least one case it'd be easier if they had a wider release than Shadowspear and a Start Collecting. Looking at the kits on the GW site - and not having a copy of the core CSM 'dex to cross-reference to - I'd certainly consider the following:
- Greater Possessed
- Master of Possession (maybe? DG book notes that warbands of DG Possessed are rare, so I'm unsure on this one)
- Venomcrawler (possibly - I know venom isn't the same as disease/virus, but it feels like you could argue for a connection here)
- Dark Apostle (though I'd prefer to weld this prayer mechanic onto the Tallyman, honestly, and maybe boost him to an HQ slot)
- Chaos Vindicator
- Warpsmith (or a Death Guard version thereof)
- Obliterator and Mutilator (possibly - I vaguely remember something about Morty being involved with the Oblit virus, but this might be more of an IW thing)


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 13:51:12


Post by: Jidmah


Getting some things from CSM which make sense lore-wise, like Masters of Possessions or Venom Crawlers, sure.

But all of CSM? You would lose the closely interlocking mechanics the army currently has with plague weapons, daemon engines and expensive but durable units.
You would essentially just be playing the wretched.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 14:06:50


Post by: Marshal Loss


 Dysartes wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I'd favor this with some cavets, some of the CSM stuff should defiantly remain with the death guard. (havoks for instance) others however are IMHO not really terriably well suited. bikers and raptors for example don't strike me as terriably well suited to the death guard. some stuff though makes no sense, things like predators etc. no reason for the death guard not to have them


Isn't Morty meant to disapprove on man-portably heavy weapons, for some reason? I could see a Havok-esque unit where everyone (possibly except the Champion) has a special weapon, though, as a Death Guard alternative.


That was just a weird restriction with no precedent put in place in the 3.5 codex. In the DG 30k HH list for example, they have Havocs/Heavy Support marines as normal, although it is noted in Betrayal's lore that they rely on bolters/meltas/flamers as "the trinity of weapons around which their wargear was based, keeping supply needs to a minimum".

The issue with doing a Havoc-esque unit of Plague Marines based around special weapons is that it then makes Plague Marines redundant as they're primarily already taken as a special weapons platform. Nothing stopping them from making up new weapons though I guess

edit: although, I suppose doing Havocs in that way would just allow them to make a new unit without having to release a kit? Which could be a pro


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 14:23:39


Post by: Not Online!!!


Why not expand the chemical warfare theme and allow DG havocs some time of chemical or bio weapon?




Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 14:30:21


Post by: Jidmah


 Dysartes wrote:
Isn't Morty meant to disapprove on man-portably heavy weapons, for some reason?

Mortarion sees his troops as expendable, but heavy weaponry as essential to break enemy fortifications. Essentially, his tactics (both before and after the heresy) resemble WW1 trench warfare, marines are thrown into the grinder while long-range artillery and bio-weapon bombardments take out enemy positions.
This is described quite well in the novel about the battle on Istvan III where the death guard simply march towards the main gates of Coral City and its entrenched positions, taking out each bunker one after another by entering the trenches, killing everyone inside with flamers, bolters and close combat weapons and then chucking a grenade into the bunker. The only heavy weaponry mentioned at all were those carried by a dread and the supporting titan legion.

I could see a Havok-esque unit where everyone (possibly except the Champion) has a special weapon, though, as a Death Guard alternative.

That doesn't sound bad, but plague marines already get 3 special weapons. A havoc unit wouldn't be too different from them. Four blight launchers in one unit would be sweet though.

- Master of Possession (maybe? DG book notes that warbands of DG Possessed are rare, so I'm unsure on this one)

According to the fluff, master of possessions are experts at possessing daemon engines and are striving to get their own dark manufactorum. The plague planet happens to be littered with exactly those, as DG are the only legion that still has a homeworld that's not a smoldering rock or less.

- Warpsmith (or a Death Guard version thereof)

I remember reading that Warpsmiths aren't too happy to work for the Death Guard, as all their creations rot away or turn to flesh - and Nurgle isn't known for his innovation.

Otherwise, I very much agree with your entire post.
But even then, all these would be just nice to haves, DG are already a very functional army despite their rather small range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
edit: although, I suppose doing Havocs in that way would just allow them to make a new unit without having to release a kit? Which could be a pro


There is just two sculpts per special weapon though, and the second plasma and blight launcher both went the way of the dodo.

Without a new kit, GW's codex picture for this unit would look rather silly.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 14:37:24


Post by: VladimirHerzog


I mean, regular havocs have one of the most stupid kit in the game right now, close to Chaos Terminators in terms of what bits are in the kit vs what the allowed loadouts (and even default loadouts) are.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 15:39:09


Post by: Conservative Heretic


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I mean, regular havocs have one of the most stupid kit in the game right now, close to Chaos Terminators in terms of what bits are in the kit vs what the allowed loadouts (and even default loadouts) are.


Yeah, havocs are terrible in terms of kitbashing and poseability and termies are only a little better. I guess this is the price to pay for more detailed models


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 15:51:36


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Conservative Heretic wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I mean, regular havocs have one of the most stupid kit in the game right now, close to Chaos Terminators in terms of what bits are in the kit vs what the allowed loadouts (and even default loadouts) are.


Yeah, havocs are terrible in terms of kitbashing and poseability and termies are only a little better. I guess this is the price to pay for more detailed models



oh i was talking purely about the loadout. The havoc kit having only 1 of each heavy weapons and the terminator kit not having enough chain axes specifically.

Of course all poseability and kitbash-ability is a lot worse than older kits now. Still doable but it requires a lot more work.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 15:56:28


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


CSM in general need a whole redesign.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 16:01:35


Post by: Marshal Loss


 Jidmah wrote:
Without a new kit, GW's codex picture for this unit would look rather silly.


Hasn't stopped them in the past.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 16:14:35


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
CSM in general need a whole redesign.


not really... the concept of CSM works, it just needs to be refined.
Add legion-specific units/options so that you can differentiate between Chaos corrupted/Fresh renegades/Old renegades and the codex would be fine.



Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 16:21:53


Post by: Grimtuff


 Marshal Loss wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I'd favor this with some cavets, some of the CSM stuff should defiantly remain with the death guard. (havoks for instance) others however are IMHO not really terriably well suited. bikers and raptors for example don't strike me as terriably well suited to the death guard. some stuff though makes no sense, things like predators etc. no reason for the death guard not to have them


Isn't Morty meant to disapprove on man-portably heavy weapons, for some reason? I could see a Havok-esque unit where everyone (possibly except the Champion) has a special weapon, though, as a Death Guard alternative.


That was just a weird restriction with no precedent put in place in the 3.5 codex. In the DG 30k HH list for example, they have Havocs/Heavy Support marines as normal, although it is noted in Betrayal's lore that they rely on bolters/meltas/flamers as "the trinity of weapons around which their wargear was based, keeping supply needs to a minimum".


That has been part of the DG lore since 2nd ed. It's been there since the start. The restriction was put in place in their IA article, well before the 3.5 codex.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 16:22:53


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Grimtuff wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
 Dysartes wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
I'd favor this with some cavets, some of the CSM stuff should defiantly remain with the death guard. (havoks for instance) others however are IMHO not really terriably well suited. bikers and raptors for example don't strike me as terriably well suited to the death guard. some stuff though makes no sense, things like predators etc. no reason for the death guard not to have them


Isn't Morty meant to disapprove on man-portably heavy weapons, for some reason? I could see a Havok-esque unit where everyone (possibly except the Champion) has a special weapon, though, as a Death Guard alternative.


That was just a weird restriction with no precedent put in place in the 3.5 codex. In the DG 30k HH list for example, they have Havocs/Heavy Support marines as normal, although it is noted in Betrayal's lore that they rely on bolters/meltas/flamers as "the trinity of weapons around which their wargear was based, keeping supply needs to a minimum".


That has been part of the DG lore since 2nd ed. It's been there since the start. The restriction was put in place in their IA article, well before the 3.5 codex.


yeah, DG has always basically been : tough guys that use biological weapons and no heavy weapons on their infantry.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 16:27:10


Post by: The Salt Mine


The entirety of 8th edition and 9th edotion:

Here you go loyalists you have been separated for years but now you all get access to all the loyalist SM stuff.

Here you go DG and 1Ksons! You finally have your own codex! What you want to keep the models you used to have access to and spent hundreds of $$ and hours converting/painting? Well thats just too fething bad heretic scum. You don't get nice things because your only job is to be an npc faction so loyalists have something to beat on. Now leave me alone pleb I have another primaris release to work on.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 16:31:35


Post by: catbarf


FWIW Death Guard used to have Havocs. GW sold a pewter Death Guard Havocs set equipped entirely with meltaguns and plasma guns, no heavy weapons allowed.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 16:38:55


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 catbarf wrote:
FWIW Death Guard used to have Havocs. GW sold a pewter Death Guard Havocs set equipped entirely with meltaguns and plasma guns, no heavy weapons allowed.


wich is in line with the fluff, no heavy weapons.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 16:46:08


Post by: Marshal Loss


I'll have to check up on the 2nd ed lore, which I don't remember at all, although I had forgotten about IA. In any case, in 30k they have a Rite of War where one of the primary benefits is a set of bonuses applied to missile launcher equipped HS units, and the entire Legion has no restrictions on using heavy weapons. Providing it fit in with the theme I'd have no issue with DG receiving a heavy weapons squad in 40k. Phosphex missiles & the like would be cool and gives options beyond just spamming special weapons, which - as above - doesn't offer much differentiation between a DG havoc unit & plague marines.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 16:55:55


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Marshal Loss wrote:
I'll have to check up on the 2nd ed lore, which I don't remember at all, although I had forgotten about IA. In any case, in 30k they have a Rite of War where one of the primary benefits is a set of bonuses applied to missile launcher equipped HS units, and the entire Legion has no restrictions on using heavy weapons. Providing it fit in with the theme I'd have no issue with DG receiving a heavy weapons squad in 40k. Phosphex missiles & the like would be cool and gives options beyond just spamming special weapons, which - as above - doesn't offer much differentiation between a DG havoc unit & plague marines.


Its the same difference between a tactical squad and a squad of devastator, or between CSM and Havocs.

Tacticals/CSM/Plagues get less slots for their non bolter weapons, Devastators/Havocs/theoretical DG havocs would get max slots for their non bolter weapons.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 17:06:51


Post by: Marshal Loss


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Marshal Loss wrote:
I'll have to check up on the 2nd ed lore, which I don't remember at all, although I had forgotten about IA. In any case, in 30k they have a Rite of War where one of the primary benefits is a set of bonuses applied to missile launcher equipped HS units, and the entire Legion has no restrictions on using heavy weapons. Providing it fit in with the theme I'd have no issue with DG receiving a heavy weapons squad in 40k. Phosphex missiles & the like would be cool and gives options beyond just spamming special weapons, which - as above - doesn't offer much differentiation between a DG havoc unit & plague marines.


Its the same difference between a tactical squad and a squad of devastator, or between CSM and Havocs.

Tacticals/CSM/Plagues get less slots for their non bolter weapons, Devastators/Havocs/theoretical DG havocs would get max slots for their non bolter weapons.


No, there's an obvious difference in usage & restrictions. Plague Marines are already primarily taken as a special weapons platform, often in squads of 5, where they can use e.g. 3x plasma. Vanilla CSM & Tacticals are not taken as a primary source of heavy/special weapons because you need a certain squad size to take more than 1, and we've seen GW in the CSM book move to further separate Havocs from normal CSM with a better statline and rules for the usage of heavy weapons. Offering DG Havocs weapon options not usable by normal Plague Marines would be far more interesting than just throwing Plague Marines into a HS slot and offering them at most 1-2 extra special weapons in exchange for obsec. I'd agree if it wasn't for the fact that there would be far less difference between your idea of Plague Marines & DG Havocs than there currently is between e.g. CSM & CSM Havocs.

edit x2: typing in phone is bad


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 17:07:41


Post by: ArcaneHorror


There's no reason why the Death Guard shouldn't have access to greater possessed, since they already have regular possessed? Also, can you imagine how dangerous obliterators with disgusting resilience could be?


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 17:10:07


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why the Death Guard shouldn't have access to greater possessed, since they already have regular possessed? Also, can you imagine how dangerous obliterators with disgusting resilience could be?


They wouldnt get DR, its not the legion trait.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 17:11:20


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why the Death Guard shouldn't have access to greater possessed, since they already have regular possessed? Also, can you imagine how dangerous obliterators with disgusting resilience could be?

Well clearly based on design of the codex GW doesn't think all Death Guard should have a FNP equivalent. So why is that an issue?

And no, saying "there's a Strat!!!!!!1!" does nothing to help that case.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 17:12:12


Post by: Tycho


Getting some things from CSM which make sense lore-wise, like Masters of Possessions or Venom Crawlers, sure.

But all of CSM? You would lose the closely interlocking mechanics the army currently has with plague weapons, daemon engines and expensive but durable units.
You would essentially just be playing the wretched.


Yeah. There are definitely certain things they SHOULD have. Greater Possessed are a good example, and you would think Masters of Possesion would be a shoe-in for an army with so many Demon Engines. Other things, like Havocs and Bikers? not so much. On the one hand, bikers never made much sense to me for a DG army, and you have Mortarion himself saying he thinks heavy weapons should be on vehicles and essentially doesn't believe in things like Havocs.



Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 17:14:46


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Tycho wrote:
Getting some things from CSM which make sense lore-wise, like Masters of Possessions or Venom Crawlers, sure.

But all of CSM? You would lose the closely interlocking mechanics the army currently has with plague weapons, daemon engines and expensive but durable units.
You would essentially just be playing the wretched.


Yeah. There are definitely certain things they SHOULD have. Greater Possessed are a good example, and you would think Masters of Possesion would be a shoe-in for an army with so many Demon Engines. Other things, like Havocs and Bikers? not so much. On the one hand, bikers never made much sense to me for a DG army, and you have Mortarion himself saying he thinks heavy weapons should be on vehicles and essentially doesn't believe in things like Havocs.


Nevertheless they were still used, so why is the artificial restriction all the sudden important?


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 17:24:59


Post by: ArcaneHorror


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why the Death Guard shouldn't have access to greater possessed, since they already have regular possessed? Also, can you imagine how dangerous obliterators with disgusting resilience could be?


They wouldnt get DR, its not the legion trait.


There's no reason why they could not be given it.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 17:38:46


Post by: Dysartes


 Jidmah wrote:
- Master of Possession (maybe? DG book notes that warbands of DG Possessed are rare, so I'm unsure on this one)

According to the fluff, master of possessions are experts at possessing daemon engines and are striving to get their own dark manufactorum. The plague planet happens to be littered with exactly those, as DG are the only legion that still has a homeworld that's not a smoldering rock or less.


Ah - not having the CSM book, I thought they were someone who helped Daemons possess other CSMs, not something to do with Daemon Engines - my bad.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 17:42:57


Post by: Jidmah


 Dysartes wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
- Master of Possession (maybe? DG book notes that warbands of DG Possessed are rare, so I'm unsure on this one)

According to the fluff, master of possessions are experts at possessing daemon engines and are striving to get their own dark manufactorum. The plague planet happens to be littered with exactly those, as DG are the only legion that still has a homeworld that's not a smoldering rock or less.


Ah - not having the CSM book, I thought they were someone who helped Daemons possess other CSMs, not something to do with Daemon Engines - my bad.


Both actually - shadow spear is essentially a Master of Possession showing off all his creations.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 18:18:05


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why the Death Guard shouldn't have access to greater possessed, since they already have regular possessed? Also, can you imagine how dangerous obliterators with disgusting resilience could be?


They wouldnt get DR, its not the legion trait.


There's no reason why they could not be given it.


It would require a new datasheet currently. But the codex could surprise us and add back in many missing unit options.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 18:26:34


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


In reality the best way to handle Death Guard is to make DR on a 6+, and their Legion Trait either gives a 6+++ or adds 1 to the value of such a rule existing. Then they can get a second part that works better than whatever garbage Advance gives them. I've wanted to try and keep it but with vehicles now ignoring those penalties it can be reworked into something better.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 18:29:34


Post by: Lord Damocles


Death Guard should never have been a separate book to begin with.

The Mark of Nurgle should provide stat changes/special rules which turn any model which has it into a Plague Marine, and the to make a Death Guard army, you choose thematically appropriate units, and give them all the appropriate Mark.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 20:14:39


Post by: Conservative Heretic


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Conservative Heretic wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I mean, regular havocs have one of the most stupid kit in the game right now, close to Chaos Terminators in terms of what bits are in the kit vs what the allowed loadouts (and even default loadouts) are.


Yeah, havocs are terrible in terms of kitbashing and poseability and termies are only a little better. I guess this is the price to pay for more detailed models



oh i was talking purely about the loadout. The havoc kit having only 1 of each heavy weapons and the terminator kit not having enough chain axes specifically.

Of course all poseability and kitbash-ability is a lot worse than older kits now. Still doable but it requires a lot more work.

Oh yeah, that's some bs imo.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 21:03:10


Post by: Marshal Loss


 Conservative Heretic wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Conservative Heretic wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I mean, regular havocs have one of the most stupid kit in the game right now, close to Chaos Terminators in terms of what bits are in the kit vs what the allowed loadouts (and even default loadouts) are.


Yeah, havocs are terrible in terms of kitbashing and poseability and termies are only a little better. I guess this is the price to pay for more detailed models



oh i was talking purely about the loadout. The havoc kit having only 1 of each heavy weapons and the terminator kit not having enough chain axes specifically.

Of course all poseability and kitbash-ability is a lot worse than older kits now. Still doable but it requires a lot more work.

Oh yeah, that's some bs imo.


Havoc kit is nowhere near that bad - it has 2x lascannon, 2x missile, 2x heavy bolter, 2x autocannon, and 1x reaper cannon. Terminator kit is far worse


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 21:11:03


Post by: morganfreeman


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Conservative Heretic wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I mean, regular havocs have one of the most stupid kit in the game right now, close to Chaos Terminators in terms of what bits are in the kit vs what the allowed loadouts (and even default loadouts) are.


Yeah, havocs are terrible in terms of kitbashing and poseability and termies are only a little better. I guess this is the price to pay for more detailed models



oh i was talking purely about the loadout. The havoc kit having only 1 of each heavy weapons and the terminator kit not having enough chain axes specifically.

Of course all poseability and kitbash-ability is a lot worse than older kits now. Still doable but it requires a lot more work.


The havoc kit has two of each heavy weapon, including the associated arms / ammo belts / tubes / backpack overlay.

The ONLY exception to this is the Reaper Chain Cannon. Which I understand to be the most powerful weapon in the kit.

Source: I've cut up three havoc kits this month alone as bits to sell. I've got excess baggies of the heavy weapons & backpacks stowed away.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 22:57:03


Post by: BrianDavion


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
I mean, regular havocs have one of the most stupid kit in the game right now, close to Chaos Terminators in terms of what bits are in the kit vs what the allowed loadouts (and even default loadouts) are.


Havoksa have 2 of each weapon actually. except for the chain gun which yes they only have 1 of each. you saw focus on the only one chaingun when the kit came out because that gun was by the math the best weapon, and it was also the newest one. thus it was what people needed the most


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 23:23:14


Post by: VladimirHerzog


alright alright, i get it, theres two of each weapons except the chaincannon lol.

my point still stands tho, you cant build a monoweapon squad with one box.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/19 23:28:00


Post by: Lord Damocles


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
alright alright, i get it, theres two of each weapons except the chaincannon lol.

my point still stands tho, you cant build a monoweapon squad with one box.

While I'm all for complaining about GW not putting options in kits, with Havoks (and Devastators), putting four of each heavy weapon in a five man box would be pretty absurd.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 00:09:10


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Lord Damocles wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
alright alright, i get it, theres two of each weapons except the chaincannon lol.

my point still stands tho, you cant build a monoweapon squad with one box.

While I'm all for complaining about GW not putting options in kits, with Havoks (and Devastators), putting four of each heavy weapon in a five man box would be pretty absurd.

Well Havocs are supposed to take multiple weapons. I like the unit crunch design but not the kit's for options. If it had four of at least three of the weapons I wouldn't complain.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 00:14:36


Post by: Humble82


In honesty I was thinking specific models from the CSM which fit the DG theme - a mid to close range army. CSM have things like Maulerfiends for example as well as those Venom Crawlers. It could be considered likened to DG the same way Helbrutes or Defilers are.

I get Havocs are outside the theme these days but there’s also other synergies that could also be included such as various Nurgle Daemons (remember Khorne Daemonkin?).

I just feel the army could be expanded greatly with little effort, and thematically accurate using existing models in the range.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 01:47:49


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Humble82 wrote:
In honesty I was thinking specific models from the CSM which fit the DG theme - a mid to close range army. CSM have things like Maulerfiends for example as well as those Venom Crawlers. It could be considered likened to DG the same way Helbrutes or Defilers are.

I get Havocs are outside the theme these days but there’s also other synergies that could also be included such as various Nurgle Daemons (remember Khorne Daemonkin?).

I just feel the army could be expanded greatly with little effort, and thematically accurate using existing models in the range.

Those too dense here are under the impression if it isn't exactly in line with the 3.5th version with arbitrary restrictions it isn't Death Guard. The Legion Supplement of 7th perfectly captured what was wanted, albeit with some wonky interactions with Chosen/Chaos Marines compared to Plague Marines.
Well the whole supplement was wonky but it didn't create dumb artifical restrictions.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 03:20:08


Post by: dominuschao


I'm not getting what the issue is.. doesn't DG have access to everything CSM does by bringing another detachment?


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 03:45:47


Post by: AnomanderRake


dominuschao wrote:
I'm not getting what the issue is.. doesn't DG have access to everything CSM does by bringing another detachment?


It won't be Death Guard, it'll be a different Legion if you do that.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 03:49:21


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Also imagine an army like Death Guard not having access to Obliterators but WORLD EATERS do!


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 04:07:57


Post by: ArcaneHorror


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why the Death Guard shouldn't have access to greater possessed, since they already have regular possessed? Also, can you imagine how dangerous obliterators with disgusting resilience could be?


They wouldnt get DR, its not the legion trait.


There's no reason why they could not be given it.


It would require a new datasheet currently. But the codex could surprise us and add back in many missing unit options.


That's true, but the changes wouldn't have to be that much. What I really think is strange is that possessed don't get disgusting resilience. Both Plague Marines and Nurgle daemons get it, but somehow the ability gets lost when the two merge. Since DG possessed don't get obsec, giving them disgusting resilience could give them the role of extremely tough elite melee infantry whose role is only to charge or protect characters.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 05:23:52


Post by: dominuschao


Way I see it giving DG full access to CSM units would basically invalidate the main codex. Why would someone ever run codex options when all they lose is Tsons and WE and those can be souped.

It would be like what forgeworld did to CSM in the past.
Edit- and now.. it's a bandaid.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 05:27:59


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why they could not be given it.
There's one reason why they won't.

GW doesn't make Death Guard Possessed, or Death Guard Greater Possessed for that matter. As such, they don't get the DG rules even if they're in the Codex. Yes, it's asinine. Yes, it's something that makes me want to pull my hair out over how teeth-chatteringly stupid it is. But, that's GW.

No model = No rule



Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 08:34:10


Post by: Grimtuff


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why they could not be given it.
There's one reason why they won't.

GW doesn't make Death Guard Possessed, or Death Guard Greater Possessed for that matter. As such, they don't get the DG rules even if they're in the Codex. Yes, it's asinine. Yes, it's something that makes me want to pull my hair out over how teeth-chatteringly stupid it is. But, that's GW.

No model = No rule



Chaos lords too. But don't worry, folks! There's a stratagem to make them have DR! Let's fix it in the most bass-ackwards way (but not fix it as he's still T4) and have Traitor Legion players pay even more of a CP tax to have a functioning thematic army! Can't have those filthy heretics have more CP than their loyalist brethren can we?


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 08:38:05


Post by: Jidmah


 Grimtuff wrote:
Chaos lords too. But don't worry, folks! There's a stratagem to make them have DR! Let's fix it in the most bass-ackwards way (but not fix it as he's still T4) and have Traitor Legion players pay even more of a CP tax to have a functioning thematic army! Can't have those filthy heretics have more CP than their loyalist brethren can we?


I feel like this was fixed in a very good manner by allowing Lords of Contagion to have the Lord's Aura. Haven't played a chaos lord since, and I just love that these slow juggernauts finally have purpose.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 11:30:41


Post by: TonyH122


Completely disagree. I am all for the AoS model of really distinct army identities. If I wanted to play CSM, I'd play CSM. If I wanted to play DG and more CSM units, I can take different detachments.

I'm all for giving DG more options, but a c/p from CSM is the lazy route. I want more crazy bubotic stuff that only a Nurgle-inspired DG madman would come up with.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 13:13:09


Post by: Crispy78


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why they could not be given it.
There's one reason why they won't.

GW doesn't make Death Guard Possessed, or Death Guard Greater Possessed for that matter. As such, they don't get the DG rules even if they're in the Codex. Yes, it's asinine. Yes, it's something that makes me want to pull my hair out over how teeth-chatteringly stupid it is. But, that's GW.

No model = No rule



There's Possessed and Greater Possessed models though. By that rationale, they don't make Ynnari Kabalite Warriors, or Ynnari Guardians, or...


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 13:56:20


Post by: Dudeface


Crispy78 wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
There's no reason why they could not be given it.
There's one reason why they won't.

GW doesn't make Death Guard Possessed, or Death Guard Greater Possessed for that matter. As such, they don't get the DG rules even if they're in the Codex. Yes, it's asinine. Yes, it's something that makes me want to pull my hair out over how teeth-chatteringly stupid it is. But, that's GW.

No model = No rule



There's Possessed and Greater Possessed models though. By that rationale, they don't make Ynnari Kabalite Warriors, or Ynnari Guardians, or...


You still refer to the drukhari or craftworlds codex for the relevant entries so it's not quite the same. If the death guard book said "you may include a heretic astartes greater possessed (see codex heretic astartes) and change its legion to death guard" that would be the equivalent to ynnari, which is still a dopey situation.

I'd rather ynnari became a full faction with their own kit variants rather than just a borrow another factions rules army. Likewise as long as DG are self contained, it is better for all entries to be from their codex.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 14:30:48


Post by: VladimirHerzog


dominuschao wrote:
Way I see it giving DG full access to CSM units would basically invalidate the main codex. Why would someone ever run codex options when all they lose is Tsons and WE and those can be souped.

It would be like what forgeworld did to CSM in the past.
Edit- and now.. it's a bandaid.


Why would it invalidate the main codex? Night lords play very differently from DG for example. Even without the DG/TS exclusive minis, the other legions would be played.
Thats the same as saying that because BA/DA/SW exist, the base Space marine codex is invalidated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jidmah wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Chaos lords too. But don't worry, folks! There's a stratagem to make them have DR! Let's fix it in the most bass-ackwards way (but not fix it as he's still T4) and have Traitor Legion players pay even more of a CP tax to have a functioning thematic army! Can't have those filthy heretics have more CP than their loyalist brethren can we?


I feel like this was fixed in a very good manner by allowing Lords of Contagion to have the Lord's Aura. Haven't played a chaos lord since, and I just love that these slow juggernauts finally have purpose.


They shouldve had the lord aura from the start, right now theyre basically a unit called "Of Contagion". hopefully the codex we will know this weekend if the codex changes that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TonyH122 wrote:
Completely disagree. I am all for the AoS model of really distinct army identities. If I wanted to play CSM, I'd play CSM. If I wanted to play DG and more CSM units, I can take different detachments.

I'm all for giving DG more options, but a c/p from CSM is the lazy route. I want more crazy bubotic stuff that only a Nurgle-inspired DG madman would come up with.


Except for the fact that DG has venomcrawlers/greater possesed/masters of possession/oblits/ etc. in the lore.
And no, taking a second detachment doesn't fix the problem because then you're not playing deathguard anymore (CSMs stuff can't get the DG keyword)


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 15:23:03


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Crispy78 wrote:
There's Possessed and Greater Possessed models though.
Yes, and they get regular Possessed rules, even in the Death Guard Codex. Did you not understand the point I was making?

Crispy78 wrote:
By that rationale, they don't make Ynnari Kabalite Warriors, or Ynnari Guardians, or...
Ynnari are barely a faction. Not a great example to bring up as a comparison.



Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 15:54:42


Post by: Jidmah


Hounds of Morkai are a thing though. No reason not create a DG datasheet for possessed, especially when they no longer can be super-charged by heretic astartes shenanigans models.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 16:13:55


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Jidmah wrote:
Hounds of Morkai are a thing though. No reason not create a DG datasheet for possessed, especially when they no longer can be super-charged by heretic astartes shenanigans models.


Hounds of morkai come with the SW upgrade pack to make them "unique" which is why they have special rules.
We'll probably have more info tomorrow when we get previewed some codex stuff.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 16:40:29


Post by: Sherrypie


 Jidmah wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Chaos lords too. But don't worry, folks! There's a stratagem to make them have DR! Let's fix it in the most bass-ackwards way (but not fix it as he's still T4) and have Traitor Legion players pay even more of a CP tax to have a functioning thematic army! Can't have those filthy heretics have more CP than their loyalist brethren can we?


I feel like this was fixed in a very good manner by allowing Lords of Contagion to have the Lord's Aura. Haven't played a chaos lord since, and I just love that these slow juggernauts finally have purpose.


It wasn't, really. LoC is a melee beatstick that has hard time getting there when I want my terminator lord to do other things as well, like carrying that cheeky 2+ BS combimelta around. Nothing is fixed in any satisfactory manner there until there is a simple Chaos Lord entry that has T5, DR and the option to take a Manreaper along other things like he always should have. Sadly, this doesn't seem likely.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 16:47:52


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Jidmah wrote:
 Grimtuff wrote:
Chaos lords too. But don't worry, folks! There's a stratagem to make them have DR! Let's fix it in the most bass-ackwards way (but not fix it as he's still T4) and have Traitor Legion players pay even more of a CP tax to have a functioning thematic army! Can't have those filthy heretics have more CP than their loyalist brethren can we?


I feel like this was fixed in a very good manner by allowing Lords of Contagion to have the Lord's Aura. Haven't played a chaos lord since, and I just love that these slow juggernauts finally have purpose.

"Allowing" via spending CP for an ability that should've had to begin with LOL


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/20 17:15:21


Post by: Mr Morden


As someone with a small Nurgle favoured marine force its a dispointment to me that we are not getting a general CSM codex and supplements rather than Codexes but then I would also have prefered God foccussed Dexes but we are it seems stuck with DG Codex

That way God specific upgreades could have been part of general unit upgrades with costs.

That being said its seems stupid to not include specific units that have been removed from Dg for no good reason.

As others have rightly said - Greater Possessed, Vindicator.

They should also have Pestigors and access to corrupted Guard units like GSC.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/21 18:46:27


Post by: Dysartes


OK, I give - how can Greater Possessed have been removed from the Death Guard when they weren't a unit when the DG 'dex went to print?


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/21 20:06:50


Post by: Grimtuff


Well, looks like we might, just might be getting our wish (though be careful what one wishes for with GW...). Note how there is a Lord Discordant in the trailer for the new campaign book. The book does not feature regular CSMs, only DG, AdMech, DE and Knights.




Now, we know in this whole world of "No model, no rules" etc. GW didn't do that by accident. A preview of things to come perhaps?


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/21 21:37:38


Post by: Jidmah


He talks about Abaddon while the Lord Discordant is shown though, and it does fly Black Legion colors.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/21 21:48:49


Post by: Grimtuff


It does, but I feel it is there for a reason. This is nu-GW where all artwork has to represent a mini and no deviations at all.

Think of how many new players see that and find out the actual answer to if they can take a Disco Lord in their DG armies.



I'm prepared to the proverbial man in orthopaedic shoes come next month, but I reckon there's more than just the Lord of Virulience and terrain piece in the book and that might be a smoking gun right there.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/21 21:55:17


Post by: Voss


'Our Warmaster.'
Woof
Typhus, where was the independent man who talked contemptuously to Daddy Morty? Now you grovel at the feet of your nominal equal from the lapdog legion? Might as well give up your colors for some emo black, little buddy.


---
Also,
What chapter is the red and black Space Marine? Can't see enough of the Advertising Shouldpad to tell, and I don't recall black torso, black pads and black helmet with mostly red and red trim/eagle for anyone.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/21 22:09:00


Post by: Marshal Loss


He's in Black Legion colours, and we already have the Lord of Virulence coming as our "daemon engine guy". Lord Discordant is near the bottom of the list of things I'd expect DG to be given access to.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/22 02:52:57


Post by: Castozor


Yeah I'd be very surprised if they gave us access to more of the general CSM stuff. If anything they are more likely to take the generic stuff away judging by the FW book. There is no reason for DG to not have relic Dreads but here we are.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/22 08:35:09


Post by: Dudeface


 Castozor wrote:
Yeah I'd be very surprised if they gave us access to more of the general CSM stuff. If anything they are more likely to take the generic stuff away judging by the FW book. There is no reason for DG to not have relic Dreads but here we are.


They fixed that with an faq you replace heretic astartes with the new death guard keyword and legion with death guard.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/22 10:16:42


Post by: Gadzilla666


Dudeface wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
Yeah I'd be very surprised if they gave us access to more of the general CSM stuff. If anything they are more likely to take the generic stuff away judging by the FW book. There is no reason for DG to not have relic Dreads but here we are.


They fixed that with an faq you replace heretic astartes with the new death guard keyword and legion with death guard.

For the Legends units. The units in the Compendium still can't be used by the Death Guard or Thousand Sons. That may change in the FAQ for the Compendium, but right now it's the RAW.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/22 10:23:22


Post by: Dudeface


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
Yeah I'd be very surprised if they gave us access to more of the general CSM stuff. If anything they are more likely to take the generic stuff away judging by the FW book. There is no reason for DG to not have relic Dreads but here we are.


They fixed that with an faq you replace heretic astartes with the new death guard keyword and legion with death guard.

For the Legends units. The units in the Compendium still can't be used by the Death Guard or Thousand Sons. That may change in the FAQ for the Compendium, but right now it's the RAW.


Ah I got befuddled and thought they'd fixed both, I'd be happy applying the same to the book though tbh.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/22 10:29:42


Post by: Gadzilla666


Dudeface wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
Yeah I'd be very surprised if they gave us access to more of the general CSM stuff. If anything they are more likely to take the generic stuff away judging by the FW book. There is no reason for DG to not have relic Dreads but here we are.


They fixed that with an faq you replace heretic astartes with the new death guard keyword and legion with death guard.

For the Legends units. The units in the Compendium still can't be used by the Death Guard or Thousand Sons. That may change in the FAQ for the Compendium, but right now it's the RAW.


Ah I got befuddled and thought they'd fixed both, I'd be happy paying the same to the book though tbh.

Same here. Death Guard and Thousand Sons are Legions, and should have access to Legion vehicles. And to correct Castozor, the fw dreads aren't relics for the Legions anymore than the actual Legionnaires are, Martial Legacy shouldn't apply to the Legions.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/22 10:49:40


Post by: Jidmah


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
For the Legends units. The units in the Compendium still can't be used by the Death Guard or Thousand Sons. That may change in the FAQ for the Compendium, but right now it's the RAW.


RAW there is no restriction on replacing the <Legion> keyword on datasheets outside of Codex:CSM
Likely not intended, but RAW nonetheless.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/22 14:43:35


Post by: Kanluwen


Voss wrote:
'Our Warmaster.'
Woof
Typhus, where was the independent man who talked contemptuously to Daddy Morty? Now you grovel at the feet of your nominal equal from the lapdog legion? Might as well give up your colors for some emo black, little buddy.

It feels more appropriate, to be honest. Typhus and his disagreements with Mortarion are all about what the Death Guard are owed from the galaxy at large. Mortarion is seemingly content with his Plague Planet...Typhus thinks they deserve more.


Also,
What chapter is the red and black Space Marine? Can't see enough of the Advertising Shouldpad to tell, and I don't recall black torso, black pads and black helmet with mostly red and red trim/eagle for anyone.
It's not one I can find in Codex: Space Marines. It looked like it was close to Iron Lords and Black Vipers, but there's bits that aren't right for either.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/22 17:43:16


Post by: Dysartes


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
Yeah I'd be very surprised if they gave us access to more of the general CSM stuff. If anything they are more likely to take the generic stuff away judging by the FW book. There is no reason for DG to not have relic Dreads but here we are.


They fixed that with an faq you replace heretic astartes with the new death guard keyword and legion with death guard.

For the Legends units. The units in the Compendium still can't be used by the Death Guard or Thousand Sons. That may change in the FAQ for the Compendium, but right now it's the RAW.


Ah I got befuddled and thought they'd fixed both, I'd be happy paying the same to the book though tbh.

Same here. Death Guard and Thousand Sons are Legions, and should have access to Legion vehicles. And to correct Castozor, the fw dreads aren't relics for the Legions anymore than the actual Legionnaires are, Martial Legacy shouldn't apply to the Legions.


Or we should be consistent, and all CSM choices involving so-called "Legionnaires" should incur a 1CP charge...


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/22 22:00:28


Post by: BlackLobster


I played Death Guard during 7th and 8th. They were better under 7th when I could take my heldrakes (plaguedrakes?) and bikes. Come 8th and a nice chunk of my army was gone. I really do wish that they had left those in and havocs (perhaps with different options).


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/23 07:39:55


Post by: Dudeface


 BlackLobster wrote:
I played Death Guard during 7th and 8th. They were better under 7th when I could take my heldrakes (plaguedrakes?) and bikes. Come 8th and a nice chunk of my army was gone. I really do wish that they had left those in and havocs (perhaps with different options).


Every time I see people mention death guard bikes, what they say in my head is "I want t6 bikes", nothing to do with fluff or theme.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/23 08:30:53


Post by: Jidmah


Yup. And it's not like DG bikes wouldn't be complete junk right now, even if they could play them.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/23 10:08:05


Post by: Hecaton


Dudeface wrote:
 BlackLobster wrote:
I played Death Guard during 7th and 8th. They were better under 7th when I could take my heldrakes (plaguedrakes?) and bikes. Come 8th and a nice chunk of my army was gone. I really do wish that they had left those in and havocs (perhaps with different options).


Every time I see people mention death guard bikes, what they say in my head is "I want t6 bikes", nothing to do with fluff or theme.


Admittedly T6 bikes would be pretty lit.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/23 10:44:31


Post by: Jidmah


BIkes in Codex: DG would be T5 and not have DR, just like all other CSM units.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/23 10:52:14


Post by: Dudeface


 Jidmah wrote:
BIkes in Codex: DG would be T5 and not have DR, just like all other CSM units.


Probably, the last time the existed they were available to dg they were bikes with +1 t and a fnp banner iirc? It was a while ago so might be mis-remembering.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/23 11:03:44


Post by: Jidmah


I don't think they could get FNP anymore since 6th (they could before), but I might be missing something - the codex is a mess, it really makes you appreciate the new formats.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/23 11:07:30


Post by: BlackLobster


Dudeface wrote:


Every time I see people mention death guard bikes, what they say in my head is "I want t6 bikes", nothing to do with fluff or theme.


Although the Death Guard are portrayed as a footslogging army, I can't believe that they don't use the tools available to them. There is an element of T6 bikes but it's not just for that. Under 7th we were able to take them, especially with the rules from Traitor Legions. Same thing with Heldrakes. Along comes 8th and those units were taken away.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/23 11:22:39


Post by: Dudeface


 BlackLobster wrote:
Dudeface wrote:


Every time I see people mention death guard bikes, what they say in my head is "I want t6 bikes", nothing to do with fluff or theme.


Although the Death Guard are portrayed as a footslogging army, I can't believe that they don't use the tools available to them. There is an element of T6 bikes but it's not just for that. Under 7th we were able to take them, especially with the rules from Traitor Legions. Same thing with Heldrakes. Along comes 8th and those units were taken away.


They're renowned for preferring a methodical infantry advance, they rarely maintained motorised support units so if bikes are a thing they're a 0-1 type unit at best. So when you saw armies with stuff like 18 bikes, bike lord, bike sorcerer and 2 min troops it was definitely about the t6 bikes.

To be honest I'm open to being swayed if someone can present a reasonable thematic reason for deathguard bikers beyond "they had them in 7th".


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/23 11:31:43


Post by: Jidmah


Those just Chaos Space Marines with a Mark of Nurgle though, and the option to run those has remained unchanged - possibly improved with the addition of rules for the Purge (which had the same paint scheme as DG in 6th/7th).

And yes, DG actually don't use bikes, for the same reason their infantry doesn't use heavy weapons. There is no reason to waste resources to drive faster at the enemy if can just send in more marines.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/23 11:46:31


Post by: Dudeface


 Jidmah wrote:
Those just Chaos Space Marines with a Mark of Nurgle though, and the option to run those has remained unchanged - possibly improved with the addition of rules for the Purge (which had the same paint scheme as DG in 6th/7th).

And yes, DG actually don't use bikes, for the same reason their infantry doesn't use heavy weapons. There is no reason to waste resources to drive faster at the enemy if can just send in more marines.


I double checked and the nearest reading i can provide is this:

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000/7th_Edition_Tactics/Chaos_Space_Marines#Special_Rules

You could indeed give units +1T and fnp using the death guard traitor legions supplement, which was an increase over just the mark of nurgle.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/24 08:55:31


Post by: AngryAngel80


Has been a bit, hope everyone is safe out there, gimmie back my oblits. If they did that I'd be happy. Honestly they fit the ideal of forward advance and come to grips with the enemy strategy. At least in my mind.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/24 08:57:13


Post by: Jidmah


 AngryAngel80 wrote:
Has been a bit, hope everyone is safe out there, gimmie back my oblits. If they did that I'd be happy. Honestly they fit the ideal of forward advance and come to grips with the enemy strategy. At least in my mind.


Well, Mortarion DID help create them...


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/24 22:06:48


Post by: AngryAngel80


Which makes it even more strange DG won't use them. I mean, I get they have a weird virus, but you'd think DG would be fine with that.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/24 23:20:39


Post by: Castozor


My guess is they wanted to make DG as distinct as possible from the other Legions to justify a standalone codex. Now obviously the DG not using signature units like the vehicle pool and dreads/hellbrutes would be silly so those are left in. But everything else got the axe.


Death Guard should get access to the other Vanilla CSM units @ 2020/11/24 23:52:59


Post by: AngryAngel80


Yeah but the line still isn't very distinctive with depth, so why not put in some units that make sense ? They don't need everything but I really would like to have a use for my oblits.