So apparently there was an ITC Ironman tournament in Florida last weekend which had a few issues. Blood of Kittens has a not exactly balanced write-up (copied below) - has anyone seen anything else about it? There's been some chatter on Facebook about it, but that's all 2nd & 3rd hand and focusing on what the ITC should do in the future.
Spoiler:
All we are saying is give ITC exploitation a chance?
Just when you thought Covid had killed Warhammer 40k competitive drama for the time being; it seems pandemic petri states like Florida anything is still possible. This particular Warhammer 40k Tournament drama situation, is one I had foreseen coming for a long time. Last weekend, the lovely Warhammer 40k players of Florida decided to try to run two one-day GTs. The idea is simple; farm ITC points not once but twice, over a weekend by doing self-styled 5 game “Ironman” events. All you have to do is find 28 players who are willing to play five games in one day.
On the surface, while a pretty insane test of tabletop endurance it is not that noteworthy. What makes this particular case interesting are the players involved, because any time you take a nebulous ranking system, and tie it to ego or profit motives you can get some bad behavior.
Here are the bullet points of what happened. Team Brohammer the Top ITC team of 2019, which includes a quite a few of the best Warhammer 40k players decided time was running out on getting sweet ITC points. More importantly, one member of Brohammer is so close to the number one spot in the ITC, any GT win could be the difference. Another wrinkle is this still 2nd ranked ITC player is part of Warhammer 40k hype house known as Art of War, who specialize in selling coaching services for the garage neck beard Morlocks of 40k society. Art of War also continues to try and Jake Paul Warhammer 40k through Twitch, Podcasts, and YouTube as well. Art of War already houses the 2018 and 2019 ITC champs, so making sure this Covid stained 2020 ITC season champ is also in the Vlog squad might be of paramount importance.
That leads us to the actual “Ironman” events, organized by Brohammer and supported by Art of War. Where day one got 30 (2 above GT status) players, of which 5 magically dropped out after game one. Then we had the odd situation where the #1 ITC player (member of Brohammer & Art of War) from 2019 is the ringer with a gak kicker list playing folks who might get in the way of making sure the current 2nd place ITC player (Brohammer & Art of War) wins the event. This potential collusion creampie as you can imagine has not sat well with tournament organizers; the ITC, and newest keeper of the rage flame current Top ITC player, who feels like Brohammer’s attempt at rigging the system is really in poor taste.
Now what I just described is pretty cynical, as one who looks down on the unregulated competitive Warhammer 40k scene, do you blame me? What amount of motive you want to place on Brohammer and/or Art of War is up to you, and since I was not at the event I can only speculate. The 2nd place ITC player did play real games against real tough opponents at this “GT”, so it wasn’t like the event was handed to him, in fact he had to beat the 3rd ranked player in the ITC to win the event. What my dramatization does say about this event and the players involved though is the danger of allowing profit/status motives get in the way of true competition. When your whole business model is based on having or being the “best” players; you run the risk of doing stupid stuff, ultimately hurt your brand, or at the very least make people question how you got to where you are in the first place.
This seems to be the trademark of Brohammer brief history; from mostly unfounded arranged tie games to, how at Las Vegas Open 2019 almost the entire team took identical lists using obscured rules interactions to get as close as possible to breaking the game. Brohammer likes to come right up to the edge. Like these one day GTs, which are permitted under the ITC rules, and how they were organized didn’t explicitly break anything. You can have an event with 100 players, call yourself a major then have 60 drop out after round one, and still be a considered a major. Exploiting such things though makes your wins and points look cheap and unearned, but I guess the idea is no one will remember how you got the gold medal once it is all said and done.
As long as the Art of War can claim their Cielo Drive home has the last three ITC champs inside, then it makes it that much easier to take money from semi-pros who get entrapped by pedestrian marketing schemes. So I hope you can see the possible conflicts developing. Art of War is also not the only group doing similar things, with Glasshammer being the equivalent British version. If these type ventures end up successful is still up in the air, but one thing is certain I don’t think either are the type of home the majority of players want to live in.
If people are going to put any stock whatsoever in a rankings system that's very easily manipulated that's entirely on them, IMO. Yes, this looks pretty shady, and maybe it is, but the problems seem to stem from the undue importance put on the ITC rankings.
Frankly, I think anyone who pays money for 40k coaching is a moron but it's their money and the people offering the service aren't hiding what you get for your money. So if people really want to spend their money on such a service it makes sense that people are willing to offer it. Yes, there's then a bit of an ethical issue as highlighted in the article, where your position in the ITC rankings then becomes a key part of your marketing strategy. Again, that's at least as much of a problem with the stock people put in the ITC rankings system as it is with the running of a tournament like this.
In short, this is a whole bunch of highly predictable drama around an easily manipulated system, allegedly done to further enhance the reputation of a bunch of people offering services of extremely questionable value that people are nevertheless willing to pay for.
TIL that "40k Coaching" is a thing...wtf? How the hell do you "Coach" someone to play 40k? Is most of the course just how to hide credit card statements from your significant other?
"OK bro so what you wanna do if you wanna get ahead in competitive 40k is every time you make a purchase at the grocery store, you wanna get 20-40$ cash back. A couple of weeks of that and you probably have enough for the loss from an ebay army flip. Just complain to your wife that grocery prices are always getting more expensive, and try to substitute meals for rice and beans and ramen whenever you can bro."
the_scotsman wrote: TIL that "40k Coaching" is a thing...wtf? How the hell do you "Coach" someone to play 40k? Is most of the course just how to hide credit card statements from your significant other?
"OK bro so what you wanna do if you wanna get ahead in competitive 40k is every time you make a purchase at the grocery store, you wanna get 20-40$ cash back. A couple of weeks of that and you probably have enough for the loss from an ebay army flip. Just complain to your wife that grocery prices are always getting more expensive, and try to substitute meals for rice and beans and ramen whenever you can bro."
I think a lot of it is trying to get people to buy in to the idea in the first place. I watched a YT battle report recently from a prominent UK tournament player and it involved a Blood Angels army basically winning the game on turn one (this was apparently a competitive format battle report as well, which doesn't really paint the game in the best light). The thing that really struck me about it was how hard they were trying to convince people (themselves?) that there was a lot of depth to the game despite the obvious evidence to the contrary. They were using technical sounding terms like "board control" and "tempo" to try to add a veneer of depth that simply isn't warranted, while also trying to cover up the obvious mistakes by the Necron player who was getting annihilated. I'm aware that board control is a thing, BTW, but in the context it was used here it was just nonsense.
I'm sure it's a complete coincidence the people involved also sell 40k coaching services and that's absolutely not the reason they were trying to add depth and complication to a game that really doesn't have any /s
A lot of it is bleedover from e-sports culture. I find the marketing of Twitch to be... strange. A sign of my age I suppose, though I've watched every brick laid on the path. I just find the destination kind of hilarious and sad.
If there's a ranking with points, people will do silly things to "get the points".
Check YouTube for all the silly, blatantly obvious and laughable ways Donald Trump cheats at Golf. Doesn't even matter that everyone knows and sees as long as he's the "winner".
People cheat at video games all the time to "beat it", even if it's a single player solo-game campaign mode thing where the only thing they cheat is themselves out of content they paid for.
I don't get what the big deal is. How long have golf or bowling "pros" been earning money coaching new players? And I don't know how much dart league or bowling league drama I've heard over the years...
solkan wrote: I don't get what the big deal is. How long have golf or bowling "pros" been earning money coaching new players? And I don't know how much dart league or bowling league drama I've heard over the years...
It comes down to what you're actually selling. Golf, for example, is a sport which requires technique and co-ordination, which is extremely difficult to pick up just by watching someone else play. Chess, theoretically, can be picked up and learned without any coaching by a sufficiently dedicated player but has enough depth that coaching can massively speed up or jump-start that process.
The main problem with 40k "coaching" is that the game itself doesn't have enough depth to warrant it. There are a few little nuances to the gameplay but they're very easily picked up by anyone watching a few games on YT or reading some battle reports. The rest is more or less about being able to identify and jump on the next big meta bandwagon, which generally requires free time and cash rather than an abundance of skill. My issue with a lot of the "coaches" is as I describe above: there's an Emperor's new clothes kind of vibe to a lot of it where everyone involved seems to be desperately trying to justify the need for such a service.
Evidence seems to be contrary to your analysis. The fact that the same players seem to make their ways to the top of any tournament they are in says they know something about playing the game that others don't.
It just like those players who can't seem to win no matter what they do. It could be their list, but it can also be the lack of a core understanding of how to win the game.
alextroy wrote: Evidence seems to be contrary to your analysis. The fact that the same players seem to make their ways to the top of any tournament they are in says they know something about playing the game that others don't.
It just like those players who can't seem to win no matter what they do. It could be their list, but it can also be the lack of a core understanding of how to win the game.
I'm not saying there's no skill involved in winning a game of 40k. I'm saying the level of skill required is not something that should require payment and coaching to understand because the amount of "core understanding" required is pretty low. I'm also not blaming those who offer the coaching - if it's a service people are willing to pay for and you feel you can provide it then go for it. Ironically, I think the key thing that's needed to succeed in 40k is a willingness to engage in a little bit of thought about the metagame and a strong bank balance. People who pay for coaching are obviously sufficiently invested in terms of their time and money, which means they're probably the group that benefits least from the coaching.
The people winning tournaments are usually the ones that attend the most and switch armies the most to chase the meta. We seem to idolise certain gamers at the top of the ITC rankings yet easily forget those who do well in one tournament here or there, which may often be because they don't travel around the country playing multiple large tournaments every year. Also, need I remind people that Richard Siegler - one of the aforementioned "idolised" top players - basically came out of nowhere in 2019 and won loads of big tournaments. Maybe that means he's some kind of 40k savant...or maybe it's an indication that the game isn't quite the high-level deep tournament system some people seem to think it is.
Slipspace wrote: Frankly, I think anyone who pays money for 40k coaching is a moron but it's their money and the people offering the service aren't hiding what you get for your money. So if people really want to spend their money on such a service it makes sense that people are willing to offer it. Yes, there's then a bit of an ethical issue as highlighted in the article, where your position in the ITC rankings then becomes a key part of your marketing strategy. Again, that's at least as much of a problem with the stock people put in the ITC rankings system as it is with the running of a tournament like this.
In short, this is a whole bunch of highly predictable drama around an easily manipulated system, allegedly done to further enhance the reputation of a bunch of people offering services of extremely questionable value that people are nevertheless willing to pay for.
Yeah, it seems like that is the case. It was weird that this tournament did appear out of nowhere and it does look like it was just done for points farming.
I do agree that the game does have some depth but not as much as people think given that the meta changes often to meet GW sales goals.
Also the fact that first turn advantage does seem to influence the win ratio and thus having a strong meta army, can offset you not having the first turn. The more I watch the more I realize its less about skill and more about breaking the game as much as you can.
Take for example Nick from Art of War. He suppodsely won the most trophies ever but now can't win a single game in the Art of War stream in the last 6 months. Seems once the castle Tau was nerfed and more board strategy was implemented, there seems that took away his training wheels recipe.
Doesn't really matter if it's "skill" or "keeping up with the latest loopholes", etc..
There's demand for that. People have been coming to Dakka for 20 years to ask the "interwebz" questions like "is this list any good", "what units should I take for my Orks to wreck face", "should I take Heavy Bolters or Flamers on my Chimera", etc..
Monetising that demand through a paywall and some marketing to convince people that the answers they get to these questions are a "premium" on Art of War, more valuable than the (probably often conflicting) answers to the same questions on dakka or facebook, the shining Apple-product-to-the-trashy-android, the Nike-swoosh-to-the-identical-10-bucks-no-brand-sneaker of "answering-internet-questions", isn't necessarily the worst idea, if you wanna make money off toy-soldiers.
It certainly seems a more sustainable business atm then trying to parasite of GW's popularity selling "not-Tau" or "not-Marines" bitz and knock-off figures or trying to keep a commission painting service afloat or whatever.
Successful business is about having demand, not having a logical reason for it.
Sunny Side Up wrote: Doesn't really matter if it's "skill" or "keeping up with the latest loopholes", etc..
There's demand for that. People have been coming to Dakka for 20 years to ask the "interwebz" questions like "is this list any good", "what units should I take for my Orks to wreck face", "should I take Heavy Bolters or Flamers on my Chimera", etc..
Monetising that demand through a paywall and some marketing to convince people that the answers they get to these questions are a "premium" on Art of War, more valuable than the (probably often conflicting) answers to the same questions on dakka or facebook, the shining Apple-product-to-the-trashy-android, the Nike-swoosh-to-the-identical-10-bucks-no-brand-sneaker of "answering-internet-questions", isn't necessarily the worst idea, if you wanna make money off toy-soldiers.
It certainly seems a more sustainable business atm then trying to parasite of GW's popularity selling "not-Tau" or "not-Marines" bitz and knock-off figures or trying to keep a commission painting service afloat or whatever.
Successful business is about having demand, not having a logical reason for it.
But the point of the thread originally was about creating fake tournaments in order to pump up the ITC rankings. So they could present the facade of being the "best" at playing make-believe war with plastic toys and charge "premium" for it.
Not whether it was smart to pay for coaching so you can better exploit the meta with your plastic toys.
The ITC page posted a reply by AoW but then blocked all replies from the post.
Needless to say, it looks like it was a bit sketchy. I guess they are lucky they just got the points removed instead of getting banned. The ITC Facebook admin closed all replies to that post.
beast_gts wrote: So apparently there was an ITC Ironman tournament in Florida last weekend which had a few issues. Blood of Kittens has a not exactly balanced write-up (copied below) - has anyone seen anything else about it? There's been some chatter on Facebook about it, but that's all 2nd & 3rd hand and focusing on what the ITC should do in the future.
Spoiler:
All we are saying is give ITC exploitation a chance?
Just when you thought Covid had killed Warhammer 40k competitive drama for the time being; it seems pandemic petri states like Florida anything is still possible. This particular Warhammer 40k Tournament drama situation, is one I had foreseen coming for a long time. Last weekend, the lovely Warhammer 40k players of Florida decided to try to run two one-day GTs. The idea is simple; farm ITC points not once but twice, over a weekend by doing self-styled 5 game “Ironman” events. All you have to do is find 28 players who are willing to play five games in one day.
On the surface, while a pretty insane test of tabletop endurance it is not that noteworthy. What makes this particular case interesting are the players involved, because any time you take a nebulous ranking system, and tie it to ego or profit motives you can get some bad behavior.
Here are the bullet points of what happened. Team Brohammer the Top ITC team of 2019, which includes a quite a few of the best Warhammer 40k players decided time was running out on getting sweet ITC points. More importantly, one member of Brohammer is so close to the number one spot in the ITC, any GT win could be the difference. Another wrinkle is this still 2nd ranked ITC player is part of Warhammer 40k hype house known as Art of War, who specialize in selling coaching services for the garage neck beard Morlocks of 40k society. Art of War also continues to try and Jake Paul Warhammer 40k through Twitch, Podcasts, and YouTube as well. Art of War already houses the 2018 and 2019 ITC champs, so making sure this Covid stained 2020 ITC season champ is also in the Vlog squad might be of paramount importance.
That leads us to the actual “Ironman” events, organized by Brohammer and supported by Art of War. Where day one got 30 (2 above GT status) players, of which 5 magically dropped out after game one. Then we had the odd situation where the #1 ITC player (member of Brohammer & Art of War) from 2019 is the ringer with a gak kicker list playing folks who might get in the way of making sure the current 2nd place ITC player (Brohammer & Art of War) wins the event. This potential collusion creampie as you can imagine has not sat well with tournament organizers; the ITC, and newest keeper of the rage flame current Top ITC player, who feels like Brohammer’s attempt at rigging the system is really in poor taste.
Now what I just described is pretty cynical, as one who looks down on the unregulated competitive Warhammer 40k scene, do you blame me? What amount of motive you want to place on Brohammer and/or Art of War is up to you, and since I was not at the event I can only speculate. The 2nd place ITC player did play real games against real tough opponents at this “GT”, so it wasn’t like the event was handed to him, in fact he had to beat the 3rd ranked player in the ITC to win the event. What my dramatization does say about this event and the players involved though is the danger of allowing profit/status motives get in the way of true competition. When your whole business model is based on having or being the “best” players; you run the risk of doing stupid stuff, ultimately hurt your brand, or at the very least make people question how you got to where you are in the first place.
This seems to be the trademark of Brohammer brief history; from mostly unfounded arranged tie games to, how at Las Vegas Open 2019 almost the entire team took identical lists using obscured rules interactions to get as close as possible to breaking the game. Brohammer likes to come right up to the edge. Like these one day GTs, which are permitted under the ITC rules, and how they were organized didn’t explicitly break anything. You can have an event with 100 players, call yourself a major then have 60 drop out after round one, and still be a considered a major. Exploiting such things though makes your wins and points look cheap and unearned, but I guess the idea is no one will remember how you got the gold medal once it is all said and done.
As long as the Art of War can claim their Cielo Drive home has the last three ITC champs inside, then it makes it that much easier to take money from semi-pros who get entrapped by pedestrian marketing schemes. So I hope you can see the possible conflicts developing. Art of War is also not the only group doing similar things, with Glasshammer being the equivalent British version. If these type ventures end up successful is still up in the air, but one thing is certain I don’t think either are the type of home the majority of players want to live in.
it was shady enough that the points were lost. The final was against the Twitch channel top gifter. Also, look at the previous message.
But the point of the thread originally was about creating fake tournaments in order to pump up the ITC rankings. So they could present the facade of being the "best" at playing make-believe war with plastic toys and charge "premium" for it.
Sure. But then there were actually more people in this thread doing the standard wargaming-hipster-virtue-signalling of how 40K is allegedly generally a bad/inferior game to other toy soldier-rules on the market, somehow trying to make that point through questioning the business of "40K coaching" on principle, rather than the specific Art of War guys who may or may not have been up to something shady. I.e. questioning the business of, say, building automobiles on principle, not the specific emission scandal of Volkswagen.
oof ... not gonna lie, that is some serious BS. And the rigging is the smallest issue, because that could be resolved by a Flat out ban for all of them from ever participating again or hosting a counting tournament but watch nothing be done beyond a lovetap. Make an exemple and be done.
But the point of the thread originally was about creating fake tournaments in order to pump up the ITC rankings. So they could present the facade of being the "best" at playing make-believe war with plastic toys and charge "premium" for it.
Sure. But then there were actually more people in this thread doing the standard wargaming-hipster-virtue-signalling of how 40K is allegedly generally a bad/inferior game to other toy soldier-rules on the market, somehow trying to make that point through questioning the business of "40K coaching" on principle, rather than the specific Art of War guys who may or may not have been up to something shady. I.e. questioning the business of, say, building automobiles on principle, not the specific emission scandal of Volkswagen.
So that was worth responding to.
there wasn't any virtue signaling, and there wasn't any other toy figure game mentioned. We all blow money in different ways so if people want to blow their money on coaching to better play make-believe war with toy soldiers more power to them. People pay for coaching for pretty much any known game. People had more of an issue that these guys were boosting ratings to justify their prices, service, etc
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote: oof ...
not gonna lie, that is some serious BS.
And the rigging is the smallest issue, because that could be resolved by a Flat out ban for all of them from ever participating again or hosting a counting tournament but watch nothing be done beyond a lovetap. Make an ex
emple and be done.
yeah zero chances of any ban happening. It would have destroyed their whole business model.
gundam wrote: that was pretty funny lol why the spoiler?
'Hiding' images makes the thread easier to read on mobile (or so I'm told).
I never use this site on mobile since it is not that great but I can see that. Also worth mentioning that the whole moniker ringer name was a bit shady too.
puma713 wrote: This is sad, like on a cringeworthy level.
Yea, it's actually kind of hilarious.
Like really hilarious actually.
At the end of the day it's not some super important or horrible scam. I mean, it's immoral, deceitful etc. But its aimed at such an unimportant thing. 40k tactics
It's just pointlessly stupid. It's pure comedy really.
In fact, if their strategy coaching is in any way a reflection of how they hatched this little scam, folks REALLY should walk the other way from their paid for services. But there is a sucker born every day, so I am sure some folks will still buy the garbage they are selling.
Well that's a combination of words I never thought I'd see.
As for 40k coaches, yes, that's a thing. A while back a new ad from Reecius' mob showing off their coaching service would appear on my Facebook feed. The comments were simply hilarious, although I doubt Frontline Gaming appreciated them seeing how often the ad would vanish only to reappear sans comments (which never lasted long).
Well that's a combination of words I never thought I'd see.
As for 40k coaches, yes, that's a thing. A while back a new ad from Reecius' mob showing off their coaching service would appear on my Facebook feed. The comments were simply hilarious, although I doubt Frontline Gaming appreciated them seeing how often the ad would vanish only to reappear sans comments (which never lasted long).
Most Facebook ads I see are so thirsty and cringe so they always appear sans comments on my feed as well.
I can just imagine the Frontline coaching facebook ads being a gold mine of memes lmao
Not Online!!! wrote: oof ...
not gonna lie, that is some serious BS.
And the rigging is the smallest issue, because that could be resolved by a Flat out ban for all of them from ever participating again or hosting a counting tournament but watch nothing be done beyond a lovetap. Make an exemple and be done.
yeah zero chances of any ban happening. It would have destroyed their whole business model.
Call me oldschool, but pricing and payment should be separate from the competition and ranking, aka pricemony should come from outside IF needed at all.
And further, if you rely on this, to make you look good, in order to make money of your reputation, then frankly i believe the whole of the ITC has an issue with integrity. And you don't solve that with a "year long" (short) ban for the organiser. Not to mention that the lack of integrity can damage legitimaty, something ITC allready has issues with .
Not Online!!! wrote: oof ...
not gonna lie, that is some serious BS.
And the rigging is the smallest issue, because that could be resolved by a Flat out ban for all of them from ever participating again or hosting a counting tournament but watch nothing be done beyond a lovetap. Make an exemple and be done.
yeah zero chances of any ban happening. It would have destroyed their whole business model.
Call me oldschool, but pricing and payment should be separate from the competition and ranking, aka pricemony should come from outside IF needed at all.
And further, if you rely on this, to make you look good, in order to make money of your reputation, then frankly i believe the whole of the ITC has an issue with integrity. And you don't solve that with a "year long" (short) ban for the organiser. Not to mention that the lack of integrity can damage legitimaty, something ITC allready has issues with .
The way they setup competitions, handle controversy, etc it makes the ITC looks like a clown show tbh. It is cool what they are trying to do for 40k (Since the only thing that James Workshop cares for is selling models) but you can't take the "40k competition scene" serious with all of these issues.
Not Online!!! wrote: oof ...
not gonna lie, that is some serious BS.
And the rigging is the smallest issue, because that could be resolved by a Flat out ban for all of them from ever participating again or hosting a counting tournament but watch nothing be done beyond a lovetap. Make an exemple and be done.
yeah zero chances of any ban happening. It would have destroyed their whole business model.
Call me oldschool, but pricing and payment should be separate from the competition and ranking, aka pricemony should come from outside IF needed at all.
And further, if you rely on this, to make you look good, in order to make money of your reputation, then frankly i believe the whole of the ITC has an issue with integrity. And you don't solve that with a "year long" (short) ban for the organiser. Not to mention that the lack of integrity can damage legitimaty, something ITC allready has issues with .
Cannot agree more with the highlighted. I've already made my feelings about the necessity for 40k coaching known and if people want to spend money on it then so be it. However, if the business side of that coaching relies on standings in the ITC then I think the people offering the coaching need to be a lot more distanced from the organisation of events and hold themselves to a much higher standard than we've seen recently.
Not Online!!! wrote: oof ...
not gonna lie, that is some serious BS.
And the rigging is the smallest issue, because that could be resolved by a Flat out ban for all of them from ever participating again or hosting a counting tournament but watch nothing be done beyond a lovetap. Make an exemple and be done.
yeah zero chances of any ban happening. It would have destroyed their whole business model.
Call me oldschool, but pricing and payment should be separate from the competition and ranking, aka pricemony should come from outside IF needed at all.
And further, if you rely on this, to make you look good, in order to make money of your reputation, then frankly i believe the whole of the ITC has an issue with integrity. And you don't solve that with a "year long" (short) ban for the organiser. Not to mention that the lack of integrity can damage legitimaty, something ITC allready has issues with .
Cannot agree more with the highlighted. I've already made my feelings about the necessity for 40k coaching known and if people want to spend money on it then so be it. However, if the business side of that coaching relies on standings in the ITC then I think the people offering the coaching need to be a lot more distanced from the organisation of events and hold themselves to a much higher standard than we've seen recently.
indeed. Hammer meet nailhead.
the fact however that it is tolerated or even encouraged, because at that point that mini "ban" is encouragement, we have reached, as gundam pointed out, peak clownshow.
Not Online!!! wrote: oof ...
not gonna lie, that is some serious BS.
And the rigging is the smallest issue, because that could be resolved by a Flat out ban for all of them from ever participating again or hosting a counting tournament but watch nothing be done beyond a lovetap. Make an exemple and be done.
yeah zero chances of any ban happening. It would have destroyed their whole business model.
Call me oldschool, but pricing and payment should be separate from the competition and ranking, aka pricemony should come from outside IF needed at all.
And further, if you rely on this, to make you look good, in order to make money of your reputation, then frankly i believe the whole of the ITC has an issue with integrity. And you don't solve that with a "year long" (short) ban for the organiser. Not to mention that the lack of integrity can damage legitimaty, something ITC allready has issues with .
Cannot agree more with the highlighted. I've already made my feelings about the necessity for 40k coaching known and if people want to spend money on it then so be it. However, if the business side of that coaching relies on standings in the ITC then I think the people offering the coaching need to be a lot more distanced from the organisation of events and hold themselves to a much higher standard than we've seen recently.
indeed. Hammer meet nailhead.
the fact however that it is tolerated or even encouraged, because at that point that mini "ban" is encouragement, we have reached, as gundam pointed out, peak clownshow.
Pretty much on point. Without that separation or lack of standards, I can't see how anyone can take the ITC seriously. Offering coaching services is just the cherry on top. It's like people telling you random appearing volcanos are a thing while at the same time trying to sell you volcano insurance.
Maybe the coaching services should focus on how to create events, have people drop out last minute, how to use ringers to counter such submitted lists, etc lol
Maybe the coaching services should focus on how to create events, have people drop out last minute, how to use ringers to counter such submitted lists, etc lol
Maybe the coaching services should focus on how to create events, have people drop out last minute, how to use ringers to counter such submitted lists, etc lol
You assume they don't already....
I mean it's assumed they do. Just saying them coaching how to massage the ITC rankings would be the complete coaching package lol
Can anyone really act surprised by the behavior though?
Competitive 40k in a nutshell is essentially stressing the rule set to the breaking point. These guys literally look for glitches and holes, and people reward them by acting like they are brilliant, for what is in my view, finding said holes in a colander lol.
So your now saying they are also willing to exploit the tournament/format ruleset? Yea, color me not surprised at all.
It's funny how folks can clearly see the one application as foul, but celebrate the other like they are trail blazers lol.
Red Corsair wrote: Can anyone really act surprised by the behavior though?
Competitive 40k in a nutshell is essentially stressing the rule set to the breaking point. These guys literally look for glitches and holes, and people reward them by acting like they are brilliant, for what is in my view, finding said holes in a colander lol.
So your now saying they are also willing to exploit the tournament/format ruleset? Yea, color me not surprised at all.
It's funny how folks can clearly see the one application as foul, but celebrate the other like they are trail blazers lol.
Being somewhat new, I had no idea how ITC rankings worked until this latest shady thing happened and I saw it happens pretty often. It became apparent they were really easy to tweak, so having a high rank is a pointless flex tbh.
And you are right, exploiting broken units/lists isn't really a ground breaking strategy, it is just pushing the broken meta until the colander gets patched..and then off to find the next leak lol
It's what happens when you take anything meant for casual time with friends and try to turn it into some sort of professional circuit and E-sport.
I always thought idolizing the best general at events lead to more below board behavior. So imagine compiling every event into one giant point system with one spot on top of all of them? Yea, no surprise from me lol.
Oh wait, your adding prizes and sponsorship on top of that?
Surprise surprise!
This really is a situation that would be much worse if it wasn't so damned funny though.
This is some Home Alone Wet Bandit type of failed theft ROFL
The saddest thing in this is the sheer volume of people who either look up to these players as role models somehow, or are so desperate and dependent on the ITC because it must have ranking and points to make it a serious "sport".
I'm fairly confident both of these things could only happen in/originate from the US.
Red Corsair wrote: This is possibly the funniest/most pathetic thing I have heard in a while.
It's like the nerdiest, neck beardiest, lamest organized crime scheme ever lol.
That Nurgle Inquirer gak post also simultaneously made the whole thing that much better.
I'm in tears over here
My reaction to the letter.
The idea someone would take a beer and pretzels game that was designed to be played with your buddies over a couple drinks to a level where there is organized rigging of rankings is comic gold. Seriously people are cheating the system to seem better at a toy soldier game to the other players of the game.
Someone needs to call up Christopher Guest, I think we found the story for his next mockumentary.
Dudeface wrote: The saddest thing in this is the sheer volume of people who either look up to these players as role models somehow, or are so desperate and dependent on the ITC because it must have ranking and points to make it a serious "sport".
I'm fairly confident both of these things could only happen in/originate from the US.
There is nothing wrong with attempting to make the game competitive. Atleast not inherently. What is wrong, is attempting to do so, and then tolerating such behaviour, especially when you allready have a lack of legitimicay prescribed to your system because you have modified the ruleset allready to make comp work.
Dudeface wrote: The saddest thing in this is the sheer volume of people who either look up to these players as role models somehow, or are so desperate and dependent on the ITC because it must have ranking and points to make it a serious "sport".
I'm fairly confident both of these things could only happen in/originate from the US.
There is nothing wrong with attempting to make the game competitive. Atleast not inherently.
What is wrong, is attempting to do so, and then tolerating such behaviour, especially when you allready have a lack of legitimicay prescribed to your system because you have modified the ruleset allready to make comp work.
It can be competitive without being a world or even nation ranked sport though, I know natural tendencies usually head that way, especially in very large countries though.
beast_gts wrote: So apparently there was an ITC Ironman tournament in Florida last weekend which had a few issues. Blood of Kittens has a not exactly balanced write-up (copied below) - has anyone seen anything else about it? There's been some chatter on Facebook about it, but that's all 2nd & 3rd hand and focusing on what the ITC should do in the future.
Spoiler:
All we are saying is give ITC exploitation a chance?
Just when you thought Covid had killed Warhammer 40k competitive drama for the time being; it seems pandemic petri states like Florida anything is still possible. This particular Warhammer 40k Tournament drama situation, is one I had foreseen coming for a long time. Last weekend, the lovely Warhammer 40k players of Florida decided to try to run two one-day GTs. The idea is simple; farm ITC points not once but twice, over a weekend by doing self-styled 5 game “Ironman” events. All you have to do is find 28 players who are willing to play five games in one day.
On the surface, while a pretty insane test of tabletop endurance it is not that noteworthy. What makes this particular case interesting are the players involved, because any time you take a nebulous ranking system, and tie it to ego or profit motives you can get some bad behavior.
Here are the bullet points of what happened. Team Brohammer the Top ITC team of 2019, which includes a quite a few of the best Warhammer 40k players decided time was running out on getting sweet ITC points. More importantly, one member of Brohammer is so close to the number one spot in the ITC, any GT win could be the difference. Another wrinkle is this still 2nd ranked ITC player is part of Warhammer 40k hype house known as Art of War, who specialize in selling coaching services for the garage neck beard Morlocks of 40k society. Art of War also continues to try and Jake Paul Warhammer 40k through Twitch, Podcasts, and YouTube as well. Art of War already houses the 2018 and 2019 ITC champs, so making sure this Covid stained 2020 ITC season champ is also in the Vlog squad might be of paramount importance.
That leads us to the actual “Ironman” events, organized by Brohammer and supported by Art of War. Where day one got 30 (2 above GT status) players, of which 5 magically dropped out after game one. Then we had the odd situation where the #1 ITC player (member of Brohammer & Art of War) from 2019 is the ringer with a gak kicker list playing folks who might get in the way of making sure the current 2nd place ITC player (Brohammer & Art of War) wins the event. This potential collusion creampie as you can imagine has not sat well with tournament organizers; the ITC, and newest keeper of the rage flame current Top ITC player, who feels like Brohammer’s attempt at rigging the system is really in poor taste.
Now what I just described is pretty cynical, as one who looks down on the unregulated competitive Warhammer 40k scene, do you blame me? What amount of motive you want to place on Brohammer and/or Art of War is up to you, and since I was not at the event I can only speculate. The 2nd place ITC player did play real games against real tough opponents at this “GT”, so it wasn’t like the event was handed to him, in fact he had to beat the 3rd ranked player in the ITC to win the event. What my dramatization does say about this event and the players involved though is the danger of allowing profit/status motives get in the way of true competition. When your whole business model is based on having or being the “best” players; you run the risk of doing stupid stuff, ultimately hurt your brand, or at the very least make people question how you got to where you are in the first place.
This seems to be the trademark of Brohammer brief history; from mostly unfounded arranged tie games to, how at Las Vegas Open 2019 almost the entire team took identical lists using obscured rules interactions to get as close as possible to breaking the game. Brohammer likes to come right up to the edge. Like these one day GTs, which are permitted under the ITC rules, and how they were organized didn’t explicitly break anything. You can have an event with 100 players, call yourself a major then have 60 drop out after round one, and still be a considered a major. Exploiting such things though makes your wins and points look cheap and unearned, but I guess the idea is no one will remember how you got the gold medal once it is all said and done.
As long as the Art of War can claim their Cielo Drive home has the last three ITC champs inside, then it makes it that much easier to take money from semi-pros who get entrapped by pedestrian marketing schemes. So I hope you can see the possible conflicts developing. Art of War is also not the only group doing similar things, with Glasshammer being the equivalent British version. If these type ventures end up successful is still up in the air, but one thing is certain I don’t think either are the type of home the majority of players want to live in.
For the love of God. It's a fething toy game. This kind of crap is why I left the hobby, the constant drive to flavor of the month, or to "run the meta" was just insane. Then you have this kind of nonsense where people are trying to play in the middle of a pandemic? Feth off.
Dudeface wrote: The saddest thing in this is the sheer volume of people who either look up to these players as role models somehow, or are so desperate and dependent on the ITC because it must have ranking and points to make it a serious "sport".
I'm fairly confident both of these things could only happen in/originate from the US.
There is nothing wrong with attempting to make the game competitive. Atleast not inherently.
What is wrong, is attempting to do so, and then tolerating such behaviour, especially when you allready have a lack of legitimicay prescribed to your system because you have modified the ruleset allready to make comp work.
Exactly. If people want to make 40k competitive, cool. If they also want to turn it into some sort of e-sports style national/international circuit with ranking points and overall champions, also cool, I guess (though I'd advise using a better, deeper, more balanced game for that). But if you're going to do that you need to do it right and you need to create your own legitimacy through your actions. Tolerating cheating or collusion is the fastest way to make a mockery of your own system.
That's not even getting into the stupidity of hosting in-person tournaments right now, all so you can manipulate your rankings in the toy-soldier community.
beast_gts wrote: So apparently there was an ITC Ironman tournament in Florida last weekend which had a few issues. Blood of Kittens has a not exactly balanced write-up (copied below) - has anyone seen anything else about it? There's been some chatter on Facebook about it, but that's all 2nd & 3rd hand and focusing on what the ITC should do in the future.
Spoiler:
All we are saying is give ITC exploitation a chance?
Just when you thought Covid had killed Warhammer 40k competitive drama for the time being; it seems pandemic petri states like Florida anything is still possible. This particular Warhammer 40k Tournament drama situation, is one I had foreseen coming for a long time. Last weekend, the lovely Warhammer 40k players of Florida decided to try to run two one-day GTs. The idea is simple; farm ITC points not once but twice, over a weekend by doing self-styled 5 game “Ironman” events. All you have to do is find 28 players who are willing to play five games in one day.
On the surface, while a pretty insane test of tabletop endurance it is not that noteworthy. What makes this particular case interesting are the players involved, because any time you take a nebulous ranking system, and tie it to ego or profit motives you can get some bad behavior.
Here are the bullet points of what happened. Team Brohammer the Top ITC team of 2019, which includes a quite a few of the best Warhammer 40k players decided time was running out on getting sweet ITC points. More importantly, one member of Brohammer is so close to the number one spot in the ITC, any GT win could be the difference. Another wrinkle is this still 2nd ranked ITC player is part of Warhammer 40k hype house known as Art of War, who specialize in selling coaching services for the garage neck beard Morlocks of 40k society. Art of War also continues to try and Jake Paul Warhammer 40k through Twitch, Podcasts, and YouTube as well. Art of War already houses the 2018 and 2019 ITC champs, so making sure this Covid stained 2020 ITC season champ is also in the Vlog squad might be of paramount importance.
That leads us to the actual “Ironman” events, organized by Brohammer and supported by Art of War. Where day one got 30 (2 above GT status) players, of which 5 magically dropped out after game one. Then we had the odd situation where the #1 ITC player (member of Brohammer & Art of War) from 2019 is the ringer with a gak kicker list playing folks who might get in the way of making sure the current 2nd place ITC player (Brohammer & Art of War) wins the event. This potential collusion creampie as you can imagine has not sat well with tournament organizers; the ITC, and newest keeper of the rage flame current Top ITC player, who feels like Brohammer’s attempt at rigging the system is really in poor taste.
Now what I just described is pretty cynical, as one who looks down on the unregulated competitive Warhammer 40k scene, do you blame me? What amount of motive you want to place on Brohammer and/or Art of War is up to you, and since I was not at the event I can only speculate. The 2nd place ITC player did play real games against real tough opponents at this “GT”, so it wasn’t like the event was handed to him, in fact he had to beat the 3rd ranked player in the ITC to win the event. What my dramatization does say about this event and the players involved though is the danger of allowing profit/status motives get in the way of true competition. When your whole business model is based on having or being the “best” players; you run the risk of doing stupid stuff, ultimately hurt your brand, or at the very least make people question how you got to where you are in the first place.
This seems to be the trademark of Brohammer brief history; from mostly unfounded arranged tie games to, how at Las Vegas Open 2019 almost the entire team took identical lists using obscured rules interactions to get as close as possible to breaking the game. Brohammer likes to come right up to the edge. Like these one day GTs, which are permitted under the ITC rules, and how they were organized didn’t explicitly break anything. You can have an event with 100 players, call yourself a major then have 60 drop out after round one, and still be a considered a major. Exploiting such things though makes your wins and points look cheap and unearned, but I guess the idea is no one will remember how you got the gold medal once it is all said and done.
As long as the Art of War can claim their Cielo Drive home has the last three ITC champs inside, then it makes it that much easier to take money from semi-pros who get entrapped by pedestrian marketing schemes. So I hope you can see the possible conflicts developing. Art of War is also not the only group doing similar things, with Glasshammer being the equivalent British version. If these type ventures end up successful is still up in the air, but one thing is certain I don’t think either are the type of home the majority of players want to live in.
For the love of God. It's a fething toy game. This kind of crap is why I left the hobby, the constant drive to flavor of the month, or to "run the meta" was just insane. Then you have this kind of nonsense where people are trying to play in the middle of a pandemic? Feth off.
I stopped a long time ago with the comp scene, i still follow it , as it is one amongst many indicators of the state of balance, which i take into account when i run a campaign with mates and friends.
But this frankly is the pinnacle of absurdity and ironically doing it during the pandemic is just the qualifying earmark that certain teams that intend to turn this into a buissness venture should frankly just outright be banned from play and any LGS /offical GW store.
This is actually damaging, giving the whole of the community by beeing associated with them a bad reputation as antisocial idiots.
Exactly. If people want to make 40k competitive, cool. If they also want to turn it into some sort of e-sports style national/international circuit with ranking points and overall champions, also cool, I guess (though I'd advise using a better, deeper, more balanced game for that). But if you're going to do that you need to do it right and you need to create your own legitimacy through your actions. Tolerating cheating or collusion is the fastest way to make a mockery of your own system.
That's not even getting into the stupidity of hosting in-person tournaments right now, all so you can manipulate your rankings in the toy-soldier community.
The lower part is frankly just the icing on the gak-cake. How fething stupid can a group of people be in the name of greed.
And it tarnishes us all, the fact that we even accept this, or the slight mini ban with 0 fething consequences should give us pause, especially the bigger venues and hosters as to what the actual feth we are doing.
Same kind of stuff happened in the Warmachine circuit as well so I’m not at all surprised. A stink was raised when in the final round of a tournament where the winner got a spot in a later invitational, his opponent who was a friend of his and had already previously won a spot in an earlier event forfeit.
How did the ITC gain such prominence? Note I’m not going anywhere with this, I’m just interested in the overall history.
I think it was mostly because GW doesnt care for the competitive scene and 40k does have a lot of players in the US. Frontline started the ITC so if you take a large community of players that would like to have a competitive scene with zero competition, it makes sense why they got prominence.
But that aside, there look to be conflicts of interest, questionable practices, and a bunch of other things happenning. Like when I first got into the hobby the "competitive" scene looked like a good angle to the hobby, but now it looks more like Home Alone meme schemes to boos the rankings
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AduroT wrote: Same kind of stuff happened in the Warmachine circuit as well so I’m not at all surprised. A stink was raised when in the final round of a tournament where the winner got a spot in a later invitational, his opponent who was a friend of his and had already previously won a spot in an earlier event forfeit.
The use of the ringer in the shady tournament was also super sketch. Imagine having access to the lists and then just being able to cater your player lists to counter those?
Dudeface wrote: The saddest thing in this is the sheer volume of people who either look up to these players as role models somehow, or are so desperate and dependent on the ITC because it must have ranking and points to make it a serious "sport".
I'm fairly confident both of these things could only happen in/originate from the US.
There is nothing wrong with attempting to make the game competitive. Atleast not inherently.
What is wrong, is attempting to do so, and then tolerating such behaviour, especially when you allready have a lack of legitimicay prescribed to your system because you have modified the ruleset allready to make comp work.
yeah a legit not shady competitive scene could help 40k more mainstream. I mostly got this due to the social aspect and I m just using the pandemic to build my armies until the stores can open up
beast_gts wrote: So apparently there was an ITC Ironman tournament in Florida last weekend which had a few issues. Blood of Kittens has a not exactly balanced write-up (copied below) - has anyone seen anything else about it? There's been some chatter on Facebook about it, but that's all 2nd & 3rd hand and focusing on what the ITC should do in the future.
Spoiler:
All we are saying is give ITC exploitation a chance?
Just when you thought Covid had killed Warhammer 40k competitive drama for the time being; it seems pandemic petri states like Florida anything is still possible. This particular Warhammer 40k Tournament drama situation, is one I had foreseen coming for a long time. Last weekend, the lovely Warhammer 40k players of Florida decided to try to run two one-day GTs. The idea is simple; farm ITC points not once but twice, over a weekend by doing self-styled 5 game “Ironman” events. All you have to do is find 28 players who are willing to play five games in one day.
On the surface, while a pretty insane test of tabletop endurance it is not that noteworthy. What makes this particular case interesting are the players involved, because any time you take a nebulous ranking system, and tie it to ego or profit motives you can get some bad behavior.
Here are the bullet points of what happened. Team Brohammer the Top ITC team of 2019, which includes a quite a few of the best Warhammer 40k players decided time was running out on getting sweet ITC points. More importantly, one member of Brohammer is so close to the number one spot in the ITC, any GT win could be the difference. Another wrinkle is this still 2nd ranked ITC player is part of Warhammer 40k hype house known as Art of War, who specialize in selling coaching services for the garage neck beard Morlocks of 40k society. Art of War also continues to try and Jake Paul Warhammer 40k through Twitch, Podcasts, and YouTube as well. Art of War already houses the 2018 and 2019 ITC champs, so making sure this Covid stained 2020 ITC season champ is also in the Vlog squad might be of paramount importance.
That leads us to the actual “Ironman” events, organized by Brohammer and supported by Art of War. Where day one got 30 (2 above GT status) players, of which 5 magically dropped out after game one. Then we had the odd situation where the #1 ITC player (member of Brohammer & Art of War) from 2019 is the ringer with a gak kicker list playing folks who might get in the way of making sure the current 2nd place ITC player (Brohammer & Art of War) wins the event. This potential collusion creampie as you can imagine has not sat well with tournament organizers; the ITC, and newest keeper of the rage flame current Top ITC player, who feels like Brohammer’s attempt at rigging the system is really in poor taste.
Now what I just described is pretty cynical, as one who looks down on the unregulated competitive Warhammer 40k scene, do you blame me? What amount of motive you want to place on Brohammer and/or Art of War is up to you, and since I was not at the event I can only speculate. The 2nd place ITC player did play real games against real tough opponents at this “GT”, so it wasn’t like the event was handed to him, in fact he had to beat the 3rd ranked player in the ITC to win the event. What my dramatization does say about this event and the players involved though is the danger of allowing profit/status motives get in the way of true competition. When your whole business model is based on having or being the “best” players; you run the risk of doing stupid stuff, ultimately hurt your brand, or at the very least make people question how you got to where you are in the first place.
This seems to be the trademark of Brohammer brief history; from mostly unfounded arranged tie games to, how at Las Vegas Open 2019 almost the entire team took identical lists using obscured rules interactions to get as close as possible to breaking the game. Brohammer likes to come right up to the edge. Like these one day GTs, which are permitted under the ITC rules, and how they were organized didn’t explicitly break anything. You can have an event with 100 players, call yourself a major then have 60 drop out after round one, and still be a considered a major. Exploiting such things though makes your wins and points look cheap and unearned, but I guess the idea is no one will remember how you got the gold medal once it is all said and done.
As long as the Art of War can claim their Cielo Drive home has the last three ITC champs inside, then it makes it that much easier to take money from semi-pros who get entrapped by pedestrian marketing schemes. So I hope you can see the possible conflicts developing. Art of War is also not the only group doing similar things, with Glasshammer being the equivalent British version. If these type ventures end up successful is still up in the air, but one thing is certain I don’t think either are the type of home the majority of players want to live in.
For the love of God. It's a fething toy game. This kind of crap is why I left the hobby, the constant drive to flavor of the month, or to "run the meta" was just insane. Then you have this kind of nonsense where people are trying to play in the middle of a pandemic? Feth off.
I stopped a long time ago with the comp scene, i still follow it , as it is one amongst many indicators of the state of balance, which i take into account when i run a campaign with mates and friends.
But this frankly is the pinnacle of absurdity and ironically doing it during the pandemic is just the qualifying earmark that certain teams that intend to turn this into a buissness venture should frankly just outright be banned from play and any LGS /offical GW store.
This is actually damaging, giving the whole of the community by beeing associated with them a bad reputation as antisocial idiots.
Exactly. If people want to make 40k competitive, cool. If they also want to turn it into some sort of e-sports style national/international circuit with ranking points and overall champions, also cool, I guess (though I'd advise using a better, deeper, more balanced game for that). But if you're going to do that you need to do it right and you need to create your own legitimacy through your actions. Tolerating cheating or collusion is the fastest way to make a mockery of your own system.
That's not even getting into the stupidity of hosting in-person tournaments right now, all so you can manipulate your rankings in the toy-soldier community.
The lower part is frankly just the icing on the gak-cake. How fething stupid can a group of people be in the name of greed.
And it tarnishes us all, the fact that we even accept this, or the slight mini ban with 0 fething consequences should give us pause, especially the bigger venues and hosters as to what the actual feth we are doing.
the way the tournament was set up, like 20% of the players "dropping out" same day, tournament sponsors using a ringer as player and organizing the tournament in a supposed pandemic hot zone, you really dont know where to begin lol
How did the ITC gain such prominence? Note I’m not going anywhere with this, I’m just interested in the overall history.
For years GW didn't have any real official competitive ruleset. Nothing akin to Steamroller or Gaining Grounds or whatever you want to call it. That didn't stop people from running tournaments, but for the most part any scenario elements were up to the TO. The ITC basically started as someone's homebrew scenarios designed to help balance out the game. They gained traction, got shared online and started being used by other TOs that didn't want to invent their own. It got adopted by TOs running major convention events people regularly practiced for and built a reputation is the primary tournament scenario packet in the US.
1) ITC measures something akin to skill level. Maybe it's better to call it endurance, your score goes up the more tournaments you participate in - provided you place. That's not a useless metric and it probably does correlate to actual talent. But people should be clear about what it measures and stop pretending it's something else.
2) The people complaining about the Ironman don't seem to understand point 1. They are projecting some other meaning on the score as if it's some kind of scam. The arguments about ethics seem divorced from the reality of what the score measures. They should not be treated as serious people, but more as goofballs who just want to yell. They ruin the scene, probably don't have any friends and are incapable of winning anything. Amplifying their voices just puts more suck out into the world.
3) Right now, significant numbers of people who would attend tournaments are not able to due to Covid. They have high risk factors, live in a place with extreme lock downs, or they just don't trust what could happen. Tournament results for 2020 should have an asterisk next to them, even if they are being compiled for use in ITC scoring. No one thinks the competition pool is as big as it should be.
4) In high school, I was a scratch golfer. I made money through private lessons, caddying and bets on the outcomes of competitive games. I shot a 70 on a bad day. There is nothing wrong with having a talent and sharing it with others even when it's for money. There is nothing wrong with using competition to promote your talents, yourself as a person, some group you belong to, etc. That's how the world should work.
Expanding on the golf thing, I used to call myself the Golden Boy and make outlandish claims about being the best there ever has been, telling people they're lucky to be seeing me before I peak, asking men to keep their wives away to avoid alienation of affection, and how I'm related to Rick Flair and got all the good genes that skipped him.
None of that was true, nor is there anything wrong with the fact I said it. I like to compete, it was entertaining to build this image of myself as that person, and anyone who wanted to challenge me was free to pick up a club.
That's how differences over a game should be settled, not these stupid polemics. If you're better than the top ITC player, prove it or shut up.
Sometimes when I hear someone complain about a tournament I try to figure out who they are. It's hard because none of the ones I was able to identify ever placed in a tournament or invested much time trying to be the better player. They're really just babies looking for attention because it's not happening for them on the tabletop. They're using any excuse they can to take down the people who are putting the work in, showing up and actually playing the game. That's victory for some people, making everyone who actually succeeds out to be a monster and twisting the truth about outcomes out to be something other than what they are.
Rots the tournament scene when you give them a voice. You are making the world measurably worse when you let them run their mouths, repeat what they say, promote it on other forums, or treat them as anything but losers.
1) ITC measures something akin to skill level. Maybe it's better to call it endurance, your score goes up the more tournaments you participate in - provided you place. That's not a useless metric and it probably does correlate to actual talent. But people should be clear about what it measures and stop pretending it's something else.
2) The people complaining about the Ironman don't seem to understand point 1. They are projecting some other meaning on the score as if it's some kind of scam. The arguments about ethics seem divorced from the reality of what the score measures. They should not be treated as serious people, but more as goofballs who just want to yell. They ruin the scene, probably don't have any friends and are incapable of winning anything. Amplifying their voices just puts more suck out into the world.
3) Right now, significant numbers of people who would attend tournaments are not able to due to Covid. They have high risk factors, live in a place with extreme lock downs, or they just don't trust what could happen. Tournament results for 2020 should have an asterisk next to them, even if they are being compiled for use in ITC scoring. No one thinks the competition pool is as big as it should be.
4) In high school, I was a scratch golfer. I made money through private lessons, caddying and bets on the outcomes of competitive games. I shot a 70 on a bad day. There is nothing wrong with having a talent and sharing it with others even when it's for money. There is nothing wrong with using competition to promote your talents, yourself as a person, some group you belong to, etc. That's how the world should work.
Expanding on the golf thing, I used to call myself the Golden Boy and make outlandish claims about being the best there ever has been, telling people they're lucky to be seeing me before I peak, asking men to keep their wives away to avoid alienation of affection, and how I'm related to Rick Flair and got all the good genes that skipped him.
None of that was true, nor is there anything wrong with the fact I said it. I like to compete, it was entertaining to build this image of myself as that person, and anyone who wanted to challenge me was free to pick up a club.
That's how differences over a game should be settled, not these stupid polemics. If you're better than the top ITC player, prove it or shut up.
Sometimes when I hear someone complain about a tournament I try to figure out who they are. It's hard because none of the ones I was able to identify ever placed in a tournament or invested much time trying to be the better player. They're really just babies looking for attention because it's not happening for them on the tabletop. They're using any excuse they can to take down the people who are putting the work in, showing up and actually playing the game. That's victory for some people, making everyone who actually succeeds out to be a monster and twisting the truth about outcomes out to be something other than what they are.
Rots the tournament scene when you give them a voice. You are making the world measurably worse when you let them run their mouths, repeat what they say, promote it on other forums, or treat them as anything but losers.
Don't do it.
for reference,
the context of this thread was groups of people creating questionable tournaments to exploit an amateur ranking system in order to sell services. At NO POINT no one here said they were better than those players.
No one here wants the tournament scene to die. But it would be taken more seriously if the organizers would enforce such rules whenever questionable tactics were used to push yourself in the rankings. When the organizers don't do that, then the clown show ensues like we all saw.
If you would have kept that in mind, it would have saved you such a long post. Otherwise, it just looks like a long elaborate red herring.
I'm still waiting for any legit proof it was a questionable tournament. I see an original post full of so much innuendo and emotion I cant take it seriously. people drop out in the second round after losing in the first all the dang time, Give me a break. Oh the winner's friend was in the tournament OMG that never happens. As far as the whole scheduling discussion I remember a couple years ago I'd often end up in an impromptu sanctioned magic tournament that would happen cause we had a critical mass at the game store. Sorry sounds like people making a mountain out of a mole hill.
There's no such thing as an illegitimate tournament. The accusations in the article are paranoid and ridiculous.
ITC allows people to organize ad-hoc tournaments in an amateur circuit and recognizes their achievements. By the nature of the scoring system, scores go higher when you place in more games. There's nothing more to it than that.
So the tournament format was 10 games over 2 days. So what? Top players should be optimizing their play to increase their rankings in any system because that's exactly what top players do. There's nothing unethical or immoral about getting more games in, you're just blaming people for understanding the rules and playing by them. All the talk about pushing things to the edge, almost breaking the game - come on. That's not serious, that's just some little person making things sound bad because he's got nothing real to complain about.
Let's be generous. Pretend the accusations about ringers, staging ties, etc to grow and sustain a streaming audience are actual facts. How does being the ITC champion translate into subscribers? Like, is there a way to quantify the benefit someone receives by having the top spot?
Talent and having something to say seem to be more important factors in growing an audience than someone's ITC ranking. Anyone who believes having that spot translates into money - the kind of money that would make it worthwhile to rig tournaments - needs to really consider what lead them to that conclusion. Like, what specific dollar amounts could be expected to be earned by virtue of having this title. How does that compare with the costs of organizing the tournament, logistics, etc?
If the return is not 10x the cost, it's unlikely a team of people would decide it's worth the trouble. They are probably motivated by factors that have nothing to do with finance. Not knowing anything about the business model under which TB operates, I can tell you they probably don't make much money at this and all have day jobs. $100 in additional superchat money over a month split between everyone on the team is not going to make this worthwhile.
Which brings me to the point of the previous letter. It's 2020, the talent pool for tournaments is shallow. If someone wants to be King of the ITC, it's with an asterisk. ITC scores measure something, part of it is being able to play games. That's not the reality for a lot of people right now so the position itself doesn't mean much to begin with.
The letter is a repetitional attack on the members of Team Brohammer over something that means very little. The accusations are petty and designed to create outrage and drama. Acting like they're anything but nonsense is silly.
Jerram wrote: I'm still waiting for any legit proof it was a questionable tournament. I see an original post full of so much innuendo and emotion I cant take it seriously. people drop out in the second round after losing in the first all the dang time, Give me a break. Oh the winner's friend was in the tournament OMG that never happens. As far as the whole scheduling discussion I remember a couple years ago I'd often end up in an impromptu sanctioned magic tournament that would happen cause we had a critical mass at the game store. Sorry sounds like people making a mountain out of a mole hill.
The issue is not the tournament, but the marketing and therefore posibility to make money off it, for further reputational gain. Whilest other players in the same league can't due to the difference in strictness of lockdowns etc. Basically you have a counting league, that doesn't really meassure skill but endurance, whilest outside forces disallow certain players to partake , which is a situation taken advantage by this group. Or in other words the comptetition for the rankings doesn't play for some anymore since they can just do tournaments whilest others can't. The correct thing would've been to state as the ITC, nope no more points until x date.
Beyond the fact that it is completely fething slowed to have a tournament during the pandemic but that's besides now isn't it.
That's what happen when something inherently amateurish think of itself as a professional instead.
There are better games to show off your strategical skills. Doing it in Warhammer is like bragging about your equilibrium and steadiness of hand because you're good in piling children letter cube one upon the other
There's no such thing as an illegitimate tournament. The accusations in the article are paranoid and ridiculous.
You realise that the ITC organisers stripped this tournament of it's ITC points and banned the organiser from running ITC tournaments for a year, right? Also, it was two 5-game 1-day tournaments, not a single 10-game one (likely specifically to give attendees 2 GT-level events to count towards their ITC score). Then we have the ringer on camera telling us he intentionally dropped in order for his teammate to get an easier path to victory. The ringer dropping isn't against the rules, but the whole thing just seems shady as hell.
That's more an indictment of how pointless the ITC rankings are for determining the best 40k player thanks to how easily manipulated they are and how they measure endurance, as Not Online says.
However, if you're naive enough to think that there aren't people out there that put enough value on someone's ITC standing to make it worth their while to massage those rankings for financial or reputational gain I think you're way out of touch. We can't quantify the financial value of being the best ITC player but are you suggesting the rankings of a group of people who offer coaching at the game for money do not factor into their financial success in any way?
To be clear, because it seems to have been forgotten among other arguments in this thread, I don't think anyone has stated it's wrong or immoral to offer a paid coaching service for 40k. The arguments are more around whether that's something worth paying for and whether the existence of paid coaching and the ITC rankings creates potential for unethical behaviour at tournaments.
There's no such thing as an illegitimate tournament. The accusations in the article are paranoid and ridiculous.
You realise that the ITC organisers stripped this tournament of it's ITC points and banned the organiser from running ITC tournaments for a year, right? Also, it was two 5-game 1-day tournaments, not a single 10-game one (likely specifically to give attendees 2 GT-level events to count towards their ITC score). Then we have the ringer on camera telling us he intentionally dropped in order for his teammate to get an easier path to victory. The ringer dropping isn't against the rules, but the whole thing just seems shady as hell.
That's more an indictment of how pointless the ITC rankings are for determining the best 40k player thanks to how easily manipulated they are and how they measure endurance, as Not Online says.
However, if you're naive enough to think that there aren't people out there that put enough value on someone's ITC standing to make it worth their while to massage those rankings for financial or reputational gain I think you're way out of touch. We can't quantify the financial value of being the best ITC player but are you suggesting the rankings of a group of people who offer coaching at the game for money do not factor into their financial success in any way?
To be clear, because it seems to have been forgotten among other arguments in this thread, I don't think anyone has stated it's wrong or immoral to offer a paid coaching service for 40k. The arguments are more around whether that's something worth paying for and whether the existence of paid coaching and the ITC rankings creates potential for unethical behaviour at tournaments.
You're setting the bar exceptionally high for this amateur tournament system, aren't you?
Most sports measure endurance as a component of achievement. Baseball / Crew / Golf / NASCAR / others recognize achievement in a similar way. You could be the most talented Baseball player in the league, you don't win the MVP if you can't make it through 162 games. For that matter, you could be the best 40k player in the world, does that fact actually matter if you only play a couple games a year?
ITC has been clear about how they do their rankings since they started. No one is trying to keep this a secret. Why are you trying to make it out to be a scandal? What do you think ITC should be measuring? What system would you recommend as being better? I'm really curious because this accusation makes the least amount of sense to me.
With regards to people not being able to participate because of Covid, what about back injuries? I don't go to tournaments because I suffer from lower back pain, standing upright for a whole day means I can't walk the next day. It's not hard for me to accept the fact that tournaments are off the table.
People living under lockdowns do not have physical limitations that prevent them from participating. Anyone is free to travel to a place that isn't locked down, you're not under house arrest. The fact there's no tournaments happening close to where you live is not a reason to shut down the rest of the system - you are not playing so there's nothing to measure and that is not ITC's fault. Most people know the talent pool is shallow in the tournament scene right now and aren't putting much stock into the results.
So what exactly are you going on about? Money? Quantify what someone could expect to earn from being an ITC champion, put a number on that before you crucify someone over it. If you're telling me you can't and no one would ever know, all you're doing is making up rumors to attack people's reputations.
You're pretending these guys are desperate for a ranking because their business depend on it. That's demonstrably false. There are plenty of people who earn money off YouTube who are not ITC champions. The factors that determine success are talent and having something interesting to say.
So why would that be different for the Brohammer team? And what's wrong with them using tournament success to market their business? Athletes do endorsements all the time, it's nice when someone can advertise for their own interests.
Again, I know nothing about their finances, but I would be really surprised to learn competing in tournaments increases revenues for their business to the point where it outweighs the costs of actually going to tournaments. There are expenses related to doing that, including registration fees, travel / lodging, time spent away from other pursuits that generate revenue, etc.
Being the top player in an amateur league doesn't actually mean much in the real world. I think you're letting your imagination go a little too far here and stirring up drama where none should exist. If there's some scandalous video of someone saying he's part of a conspiracy to upend the results of a tournament, feel free to share it. But you sound like someone who reads a lot into the situation.
Your personal back pain is not contagious and does not endanger others.
Potentially incentivising people to go to or organise a tournament against their best judgement, including probably quite a lot of minors as this is a toy-soldier game heavily played and marketed to children, will put other people at unnecessary risks, doubly so as playing with toy soldiers to accrues imaginary nerd points to feed the starved ego of neckbeards isn't a crucial or necessary activity in a pandemic. For that reason alone, the ITC should not do points and rankings, including for tournaments held in places that are 100% safe, at all until COVID is over. It's not about the risks or safety at location A or B. It's about a incentivising activities globally, while most of the globe is not safe, if you make the ranking global.
Stop being such an egoistic feth and try to remember there's other humans on this planet.
techsoldaten wrote: snip *A whole bunch of stuff tangentially related to anything I actually said* /snip
I have no idea what most of that has to do with literally anything I said. You seem to be way overreacting here. My quoted post doesn't mention Covid at all, though I'm not sure there's much point in discussing that any further with someone who equates back pain to an infectious, deadly disease that spreads through social contact. Plaase tell me you understand how those two things are different?
As far as the money side of things goes, I'm making no judgements about how much money anyone is earning from this. I have no idea what the finances are like for those involved. However, we know that people do get paid for coaching - they make money based at least partially on their reputation, which is in turn based on their ITC rankings. So no, it's not demonstrably false that your ITC ranking has no impact on your business of 40k coaching. If anything, I'd argue that the default position would be the higher your ranking the better for your coaching business. You or I may not agree with others about the importance of those rankings but that's irrelevant if other people use them as some metric of quality. That seems like a reasonable conclusion to draw. Like it or not, once a professional business venture is involved, any potential shady behaviour is going to come under a lot more scrutiny. 40k doesn't have a great track record with the reputation of some of its top tournament players.
I know people earn money from 40k-related activities other than coaching and most people who offer coaching fall into that category as well. Since I'm not talking about those other activities and have never brought them up I have no idea why you think it's relevant to the discussion.
Jerram wrote: I'm still waiting for any legit proof it was a questionable tournament. I see an original post full of so much innuendo and emotion I cant take it seriously. people drop out in the second round after losing in the first all the dang time, Give me a break. Oh the winner's friend was in the tournament OMG that never happens. As far as the whole scheduling discussion I remember a couple years ago I'd often end up in an impromptu sanctioned magic tournament that would happen cause we had a critical mass at the game store. Sorry sounds like people making a mountain out of a mole hill.
The issue is not the tournament, but the marketing and therefore posibility to make money off it, for further reputational gain. Whilest other players in the same league can't due to the difference in strictness of lockdowns etc.
Basically you have a counting league, that doesn't really meassure skill but endurance, whilest outside forces disallow certain players to partake , which is a situation taken advantage by this group.
Beyond the fact that it is completely fething slowed to have a tournament during the pandemic but that's besides now isn't it.
pretty much on point. Given all of the things that came out of this, it def looked like a "home alone" like operation to boost rankings for a specific player due to the many things (i.e. ringers from the same thing, organizers directly beneffiting from this, etc)
There's no such thing as an illegitimate tournament. The accusations in the article are paranoid and ridiculous.
You realise that the ITC organisers stripped this tournament of it's ITC points and banned the organiser from running ITC tournaments for a year, right? Also, it was two 5-game 1-day tournaments, not a single 10-game one (likely specifically to give attendees 2 GT-level events to count towards their ITC score). Then we have the ringer on camera telling us he intentionally dropped in order for his teammate to get an easier path to victory. The ringer dropping isn't against the rules, but the whole thing just seems shady as hell.
That's more an indictment of how pointless the ITC rankings are for determining the best 40k player thanks to how easily manipulated they are and how they measure endurance, as Not Online says.
However, if you're naive enough to think that there aren't people out there that put enough value on someone's ITC standing to make it worth their while to massage those rankings for financial or reputational gain I think you're way out of touch. We can't quantify the financial value of being the best ITC player but are you suggesting the rankings of a group of people who offer coaching at the game for money do not factor into their financial success in any way?
To be clear, because it seems to have been forgotten among other arguments in this thread, I don't think anyone has stated it's wrong or immoral to offer a paid coaching service for 40k. The arguments are more around whether that's something worth paying for and whether the existence of paid coaching and the ITC rankings creates potential for unethical behaviour at tournaments.
The arguments are more around whether that's something worth paying for and whether the existence of paid coaching and the ITC rankings creates potential for unethical behaviour at tournaments. Yeah people try to distract with Legend of Bagger Vance and back pain stories but it is nothing but Red Herrings. The issue isn't paid coaching, it is the obvious conflict of interests that creates unethical behavior. Pretty sure there are laws against this but the money is so little now that they aren't on anyone's radar.
Then we have the ringer on camera telling us he intentionally dropped in order for his teammate to get an easier path to victory. The ringer dropping isn't against the rules, but the whole thing just seems shady as hell. That was shady af, it was sort of the cherry on top of all it. The only thing to make this a closed case if us seeing a public facebook thread about how to set up the ringer and then have him drop out, among the other players. Given everything, it is more reasonable that this was indeed a scam for points.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sunny Side Up wrote: Your personal back pain is not contagious and does not endanger others.
Potentially incentivising people to go to or organise a tournament against their best judgement, including probably quite a lot of minors as this is a toy-soldier game heavily played and marketed to children, will put other people at unnecessary risks, doubly so as playing with toy soldiers to accrues imaginary nerd points to feed the starved ego of neckbeards isn't a crucial or necessary activity in a pandemic. For that reason alone, the ITC should not do points and rankings, including for tournaments held in places that are 100% safe, at all until COVID is over. It's not about the risks or safety at location A or B. It's about a incentivising activities globally, while most of the globe is not safe, if you make the ranking global.
Stop being such an egoistic feth and try to remember there's other humans on this planet.
Good closing point. And 100% agree that "playing with toy soldiers to accrues imaginary nerd points to feed the starved ego of neckbeards isn't a crucial or necessary activity in a pandemic"
techsoldaten wrote: snip *A whole bunch of stuff tangentially related to anything I actually said* /snip
We know that people do get paid for coaching - they make money based at least partially on their reputation, which is in turn based on their ITC rankings. So no, it's not demonstrably false that your ITC ranking has no impact on your business of 40k coaching. If anything, I'd argue that the default position would be the higher your ranking the better for your coaching business.
There are so many irrelevant points being made to distract from the fact that you and others keep bringing up. Shady, unethical behavior so that "they make money based at least partially on their reputation, which is in turn based on their ITC rankings"
Can someone link these irrelevant golf and other meme stories to the Red Herring wiki page? Perfect examples of that very popular Logical fallacy lolhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring
There's no such thing as an illegitimate tournament. The accusations in the article are paranoid and ridiculous.
You realise that the ITC organisers stripped this tournament of it's ITC points and banned the organiser from running ITC tournaments for a year, right? Also, it was two 5-game 1-day tournaments, not a single 10-game one (likely specifically to give attendees 2 GT-level events to count towards their ITC score). Then we have the ringer on camera telling us he intentionally dropped in order for his teammate to get an easier path to victory. The ringer dropping isn't against the rules, but the whole thing just seems shady as hell.
Sounds more like ITC made a knee jerk reaction caving to the social media mob. Do you have a link to the video ?
Cybtroll wrote: That's what happen when something inherently amateurish think of itself as a professional instead.
There are better games to show off your strategical skills. Doing it in Warhammer is like bragging about your equilibrium and steadiness of hand because you're good in piling children letter cube one upon the other
Exactly, like you and many others have said this game is so unbalanced and has so many broken things that it is less about strategy and more about finding the coolander that hasn't been plugged yet. This thread summarizes perfectly how this "strategy" game works and how people just work to find the most broken combo, that basically lets you statistically steamroll your opponents by piling children letter cubes lol
.........................
[transcript of the image]
Ceanndach I think the Brohammer guys properly identified that Cogitated Martyrdom is absolutely busted and built a list strictly to take advantage of it. This probably prompted Seigler to switch.
scrotilicus132 I haven't had a chance to watch the video yet and I don't play space marines. What does that strat do?
Ceanndach Lets a character pass off damage that it takes to a nearby infantry unit on a 2+ and they take a mortal wound for each damage.
However this is after applying Iron Stone, the Dreadnought 1/2 damage strat and rolling the 2+/4++/5+++ on the dread for being IH /w the Master Apothecary.
The infantry taking whatever wounds are left, also get to roll a 5+++. It is effectively better than shield drones.
scrotilicus132 Wait so the dread gets to take all it's saves, then any damage that makes it through the reductions and it's saves gets passed off to the infantry.... Who can then take their own feel no pains....
What
The
phuck
There's no such thing as an illegitimate tournament. The accusations in the article are paranoid and ridiculous.
You realise that the ITC organisers stripped this tournament of it's ITC points and banned the organiser from running ITC tournaments for a year, right? Also, it was two 5-game 1-day tournaments, not a single 10-game one (likely specifically to give attendees 2 GT-level events to count towards their ITC score). Then we have the ringer on camera telling us he intentionally dropped in order for his teammate to get an easier path to victory. The ringer dropping isn't against the rules, but the whole thing just seems shady as hell.
Sounds more like ITC made a knee jerk reaction caving to the social media mob. Do you have a link to the video ?
From the info on the 40kFB page the TO seems to have admitted his wrongdoing and accepted the sanction, but sure, let's keep assuming it's all a big misunderstanding.
The video was a clip from an AOW livestream with Richard Siegler and John Lennon. It showed up in the comments of the FB page the Nurgle-related image from this thread appeared on.
There's no such thing as an illegitimate tournament. The accusations in the article are paranoid and ridiculous.
You realise that the ITC organisers stripped this tournament of it's ITC points and banned the organiser from running ITC tournaments for a year, right? Also, it was two 5-game 1-day tournaments, not a single 10-game one (likely specifically to give attendees 2 GT-level events to count towards their ITC score). Then we have the ringer on camera telling us he intentionally dropped in order for his teammate to get an easier path to victory. The ringer dropping isn't against the rules, but the whole thing just seems shady as hell.
Sounds more like ITC made a knee jerk reaction caving to the social media mob. Do you have a link to the video ?
kneejerk? lmao they only thing they caved to was giving them a slap on the wrist to try to make it seem like they were doing something to try to make the ITC not look like a clown show.
You can see the ringer's fake name at the bottom(Brian Siegler) and then him dropping out in the official tournament sheet
There's no such thing as an illegitimate tournament. The accusations in the article are paranoid and ridiculous.
You realise that the ITC organisers stripped this tournament of it's ITC points and banned the organiser from running ITC tournaments for a year, right? Also, it was two 5-game 1-day tournaments, not a single 10-game one (likely specifically to give attendees 2 GT-level events to count towards their ITC score). Then we have the ringer on camera telling us he intentionally dropped in order for his teammate to get an easier path to victory. The ringer dropping isn't against the rules, but the whole thing just seems shady as hell.
Sounds more like ITC made a knee jerk reaction caving to the social media mob. Do you have a link to the video ?
From the info on the 40kFB page the TO seems to have admitted his wrongdoing and accepted the sanction, but sure, let's keep assuming it's all a big misunderstanding.
The video was a clip from an AOW livestream with Richard Siegler and John Lennon. It showed up in the comments of the FB page the Nurgle-related image from this thread appeared on.
let's keep assuming it's all a big misunderstanding
yeah pretty much, according to the rules they should have been banned.
If the ITC doesn't want to be viewed as a clown show they should have enforced the rules with some bans/points reductions and not let the ITC rankings be a padded meme of coaching up-selling services.
If the ITC doesn't want to be viewed as a clown show they should have enforced the rules with some bans/points reductions and not let the ITC rankings be a padded meme of coaching up-selling services.
"The ITC", to begin with, is just a marketing-thing by FLG to hawk their events (which in turn hawk their terrain, mats, etc..). The Art of War stuff is on their website. The "celebrity-pro-player-idea" is circulated first and foremost on their own podcasts and blogs.
Those rankings and points don't make any money. Their raison d'etre is to drive business to those sites, getting people to pay them money for coaching to play better at the events they organise, possibly with the latest "meta-list" painting by their painting studio, while listening to ads on their social media and hopefully also taking old mats, terrain, etc.. off their hands after the event so FLG doesn't have to store it and can get new design for the next round of events.
Cybtroll wrote: That's what happen when something inherently amateurish think of itself as a professional instead.
There are better games to show off your strategical skills. Doing it in Warhammer is like bragging about your equilibrium and steadiness of hand because you're good in piling children letter cube one upon the other
AduroT wrote: Same kind of stuff happened in the Warmachine circuit as well so I’m not at all surprised. A stink was raised when in the final round of a tournament where the winner got a spot in a later invitational, his opponent who was a friend of his and had already previously won a spot in an earlier event forfeit.
The very idea of "teams" in an individually-ranked environment is a recipe for collusion.
AduroT wrote: Same kind of stuff happened in the Warmachine circuit as well so I’m not at all surprised. A stink was raised when in the final round of a tournament where the winner got a spot in a later invitational, his opponent who was a friend of his and had already previously won a spot in an earlier event forfeit.
The very idea of "teams" in an individually-ranked environment is a recipe for collusion.
By "teams" we're literally talking about "a group of friends that carpooled to the event". You can give it a label but this is not exactly a hobby that works without connecting with opponents.
techsoldaten wrote: snip *A whole bunch of stuff tangentially related to anything I actually said* /snip
I have no idea what most of that has to do with literally anything I said. You seem to be way overreacting here. My quoted post doesn't mention Covid at all, though I'm not sure there's much point in discussing that any further with someone who equates back pain to an infectious, deadly disease that spreads through social contact. Plaase tell me you understand how those two things are different?
So this isn't about who can participate in tournaments, this is about public health policy. Got it.
My sister manages a grocery store. She's been customer-facing since day one, sees a lot more people every day than you would at a 24 person tournament.
So you are exaggerating a little bit about the dangers of interacting with others. Millions do it daily without issue.
Slipspace wrote: As far as the money side of things goes, I'm making no judgements about how much money anyone is earning from this. I have no idea what the finances are like for those involved. However, we know that people do get paid for coaching - they make money based at least partially on their reputation, which is in turn based on their ITC rankings.
I've asked you to quantify whatever profit they make make from this, all you've come back with is a hunch.
How much money do you think these guys are making from their coaching service? How much more do you think they're making because one of them is an ITC champion?
I'd bet the answer is less than the cost for a team of people to actually attend tournaments during an average year.
Slipspace wrote: So no, it's not demonstrably false that your ITC ranking has no impact on your business of 40k coaching.
That's pretty shady what you're doing there, pretending these Team Bro guys are desperate for wins to keep their business going.
Sure, being an ITC champ generates attention, but plenty of people offer the same services you described without ever playing in the ITC. If other people can do it without some title, then that title really doesn't matter, does it? It's just a nice to have.
Help me understand what specifically makes these Team Bro guys dependent on a system that doesn't seem to matter much to other people who do the same. Like, do they not actually know how to play the game? Are they really ugly people who would not be able to attract an audience but for some title in an amateur league?
Just answer the question, what makes this team so special that they have to have that title for their business to keep going? You don't really have an answer for that, do you?
Slipspace wrote: If anything, I'd argue that the default position would be the higher your ranking the better for your coaching business. You or I may not agree with others about the importance of those rankings but that's irrelevant if other people use them as some metric of quality. That seems like a reasonable conclusion to draw. Like it or not, once a professional business venture is involved, any potential shady behaviour is going to come under a lot more scrutiny. 40k doesn't have a great track record with the reputation of some of its top tournament players.
I know people earn money from 40k-related activities other than coaching and most people who offer coaching fall into that category as well. Since I'm not talking about those other activities and have never brought them up I have no idea why you think it's relevant to the discussion.
Yeah, you keep saying things like that and pretending you have some special insight into what motivates these people.
Much simpler explanation is they are gamers participating in a system looking to max out their score. Just like any rational, intelligent gamer would.
It comes with some attention that may translate into dollars, but they also put thousands of hours a year into the hobby. They'd probably make more taking a job at McDonalds than they would spending their time doing 40k. If they are one of those rare unicorns that can make a living at the hobby, good for them. Hope they enjoy it while it lasts.
But again, they're gamers. They look at how the game is played and try to win. There's a reason you can't understand that and they're not the ones to blame.
The best part is their link from best coast pairings that show a heck of alot of tourneys going on (but some reason this one poses a special health risk and deserves punishment for that reason alone).
I ask for a link to the video you don't provide it, you make accusations of rule breaking but don't say which ones or provide proof they did so. I really am undecided but the information in this thread on this board does not support the accusations being thrown around.
techsoldaten's argument just boils down to: "There's no such thing as exploiting, if it's legal, it's kosher, and in fact top players SHOULD be doing it because they'd be fools not to."
That's an argument, but it's not one even the ITC itself endorses, as evidenced by what they did in response to what was a pretty obvious attempt to manipulate the rankings, something ITC does not consider just "part of winning" the way techsoldaten does.
yukishiro1 wrote: techsoldaten's argument just boils down to: "There's no such thing as exploiting, if it's legal, it's kosher, and in fact top players SHOULD be doing it because they'd be fools not to."
That's an argument, but it's not one even the ITC itself endorses, as evidenced by what they did in response to what was a pretty obvious attempt to manipulate the rankings, something ITC does not consider just "part of winning" the way techsoldaten does.
No, my argument is the people making accusations are the problem.
If they have so much to say, they can back up their claims. All I've seen is personal attacks, claims of special insight into something they know nothing about, and sidestepping the most basic questions.
Jerram wrote: The best part is their link from best coast pairings that show a heck of alot of tourneys going on (but some reason this one poses a special health risk and deserves punishment for that reason alone).
I ask for a link to the video you don't provide it, you make accusations of rule breaking but don't say which ones or provide proof they did so. I really am undecided but the information in this thread on this board does not support the accusations being thrown around.
the video has been out for a while so if I send you the direct link, will you finally admit they are shady or not?
Jerram wrote: The best part is their link from best coast pairings that show a heck of alot of tourneys going on (but some reason this one poses a special health risk and deserves punishment for that reason alone).
I ask for a link to the video you don't provide it, you make accusations of rule breaking but don't say which ones or provide proof they did so. I really am undecided but the information in this thread on this board does not support the accusations being thrown around.
the video has been out for a while so if I send you the direct link, will you finally admit they are shady or not?
Put the link up and let people make up their own minds.
yukishiro1 wrote: techsoldaten's argument just boils down to: "There's no such thing as exploiting, if it's legal, it's kosher, and in fact top players SHOULD be doing it because they'd be fools not to."
That's an argument, but it's not one even the ITC itself endorses, as evidenced by what they did in response to what was a pretty obvious attempt to manipulate the rankings, something ITC does not consider just "part of winning" the way techsoldaten does.
No, my argument is the people making accusations are the problem.
If they have so much to say, they can back up their claims. All I've seen is personal attacks, claims of special insight into something they know nothing about, and sidestepping the most basic questions.
Weak and stupid.
lmao this guy, I bet his IP address belongs in the same geographical area as someone involved with this org. There is video proof, so if you get the link will you finally stop? or will you continue posting non-relevant tangents?
yukishiro1 wrote: techsoldaten's argument just boils down to: "There's no such thing as exploiting, if it's legal, it's kosher, and in fact top players SHOULD be doing it because they'd be fools not to."
That's an argument, but it's not one even the ITC itself endorses, as evidenced by what they did in response to what was a pretty obvious attempt to manipulate the rankings, something ITC does not consider just "part of winning" the way techsoldaten does.
No, my argument is the people making accusations are the problem.
If they have so much to say, they can back up their claims. All I've seen is personal attacks, claims of special insight into something they know nothing about, and sidestepping the most basic questions.
Weak and stupid.
lmao this guy, I bet his IP address belongs in the same geographical area as someone involved with this org. There is video proof, so if you get the link will you finally stop? or will you continue posting non-relevant tangents?
Jerram wrote: The best part is their link from best coast pairings that show a heck of alot of tourneys going on (but some reason this one poses a special health risk and deserves punishment for that reason alone).
I ask for a link to the video you don't provide it, you make accusations of rule breaking but don't say which ones or provide proof they did so. I really am undecided but the information in this thread on this board does not support the accusations being thrown around.
the video has been out for a while so if I send you the direct link, will you finally admit they are shady or not?
Put the link up and let people make up their own minds.
You people are so manipulative.
"make up their own minds?
There is Proof that I am wrong? it is THE proof that is wrong!" haha
sounds like you are an alternative facts type of dude. No one here is manipulative, you just don't know how to cordially engage in civil discussion without resorting to irrelevant tangents, and simple-minded logical fallacies such as Re Herrings. Also, calling people stupid? No one here insulted anyone until you came here.
If you are so triggered by people calling out shady practices in a plastic toy game, maybe revaluate your life?
Jerram wrote: The best part is their link from best coast pairings that show a heck of alot of tourneys going on (but some reason this one poses a special health risk and deserves punishment for that reason alone).
I ask for a link to the video you don't provide it, you make accusations of rule breaking but don't say which ones or provide proof they did so. I really am undecided but the information in this thread on this board does not support the accusations being thrown around.
the video has been out for a while so if I send you the direct link, will you finally admit they are shady or not?
Put the link up and let people make up their own minds.
You people are so manipulative.
"make up their own minds?
There is Proof that I am wrong? it is THE proof that is wrong!" haha
sounds like you are an alternative facts type of dude. No one here is manipulative, you just don't know how to cordially engage in civil discussion without resorting to irrelevant tangents, and simple-minded logical fallacies such as Re Herrings. Also, calling people stupid? No one here insulted anyone until you came here.
If you are so triggered by people calling out shady practices in a plastic toy game, maybe revaluate your life?
Still not seeing a link to that stupid video you claim to have.
AduroT wrote: Same kind of stuff happened in the Warmachine circuit as well so I’m not at all surprised. A stink was raised when in the final round of a tournament where the winner got a spot in a later invitational, his opponent who was a friend of his and had already previously won a spot in an earlier event forfeit.
The very idea of "teams" in an individually-ranked environment is a recipe for collusion.
this whole thing has been a meme of collusions from the start lol
techsoldaten wrote:
So this isn't about who can participate in tournaments, this is about public health policy. Got it.
My sister manages a grocery store. She's been customer-facing since day one, sees a lot more people every day than you would at a 24 person tournament.
So you are exaggerating a little bit about the dangers of interacting with others. Millions do it daily without issue.
If you can't figure out the difference between the requirement to buy food and attending a 40k tournament I really can't help you.
techsoldaten wrote:
I've asked you to quantify whatever profit they make make from this, all you've come back with is a hunch.
How much money do you think these guys are making from their coaching service? How much more do you think they're making because one of them is an ITC champion?
I'd bet the answer is less than the cost for a team of people to actually attend tournaments during an average year.
Just answer the question, what makes this team so special that they have to have that title for their business to keep going? You don't really have an answer for that, do you?
And you don't understand the point I'm making here either. I don't have a number to give you, which I made clear in my previous posts. The point, which you seem unable to grasp, is that they have a business venture that generates money for them based on 40k coaching. The amount is irrelevant, assuming it's non-zero, which seems like a safe assumption.
Further, it seems a safe assumption that having a high position in the ITC rankings is beneficial to a business that is based on competence in that system - given two different coaches offering the same service for the same cost and all other things being equal, I suspect a very high proportion of people would choose the coach with the top-10 ITC ranking over the one with a ranking of 500. That's why people are viewing this as potentially shady, because success in 40k tournaments can logically be shown to have a potential impact on the success of their side-business.
Jerram wrote:The best part is their link from best coast pairings that show a heck of alot of tourneys going on (but some reason this one poses a special health risk and deserves punishment for that reason alone).
I ask for a link to the video you don't provide it, you make accusations of rule breaking but don't say which ones or provide proof they did so. I really am undecided but the information in this thread on this board does not support the accusations being thrown around.
Nobody's saying this is the only tournament that shouldn't be running due to Covid, it's just the one that's being discussed here for a different reason. That doesn't change the fact that running a tournament in that location is a bad idea right now.
yukishiro1 wrote: techsoldaten's argument just boils down to: "There's no such thing as exploiting, if it's legal, it's kosher, and in fact top players SHOULD be doing it because they'd be fools not to."
That's an argument, but it's not one even the ITC itself endorses, as evidenced by what they did in response to what was a pretty obvious attempt to manipulate the rankings, something ITC does not consider just "part of winning" the way techsoldaten does.
No, my argument is the people making accusations are the problem.
If they have so much to say, they can back up their claims. All I've seen is personal attacks, claims of special insight into something they know nothing about, and sidestepping the most basic questions.
Weak and stupid.
No, you literally said there is no such thing as an illegitimate tournament - I can go back and quote it if you want? - a view the ITC itself clearly disagrees with.
If you want to walk back your prior argument and make a different argument that's fine, though that seems to fit the definition of "weak" better than anything else in this thread.
Jerram wrote: The best part is their link from best coast pairings that show a heck of alot of tourneys going on (but some reason this one poses a special health risk and deserves punishment for that reason alone).
I ask for a link to the video you don't provide it, you make accusations of rule breaking but don't say which ones or provide proof they did so. I really am undecided but the information in this thread on this board does not support the accusations being thrown around.
the video has been out for a while so if I send you the direct link, will you finally admit they are shady or not?
Put the link up and let people make up their own minds.
You people are so manipulative.
"make up their own minds?
There is Proof that I am wrong? it is THE proof that is wrong!" haha
sounds like you are an alternative facts type of dude. No one here is manipulative, you just don't know how to cordially engage in civil discussion without resorting to irrelevant tangents, and simple-minded logical fallacies such as Re Herrings. Also, calling people stupid? No one here insulted anyone until you came here.
If you are so triggered by people calling out shady practices in a plastic toy game, maybe revaluate your life?
Still not seeing a link to that stupid video you claim to have.
Put up or shut up.
lmao
I am eating now and I was just about to post the link but I mostly wanted you to show your cards and see how vested you are in this coaching/ITC clown show.....
You must have so MUCH time invested into this since you keep talking about completely irrelevant stuff, insulting people and just being all-around a very triggered person.
Here is ANOTHER link that says how Siegler was the ringer and then was going to drop out before round 5. Starts at 14:45
yukishiro1 wrote: techsoldaten's argument just boils down to: "There's no such thing as exploiting, if it's legal, it's kosher, and in fact top players SHOULD be doing it because they'd be fools not to."
That's an argument, but it's not one even the ITC itself endorses, as evidenced by what they did in response to what was a pretty obvious attempt to manipulate the rankings, something ITC does not consider just "part of winning" the way techsoldaten does.
No, my argument is the people making accusations are the problem.
If they have so much to say, they can back up their claims. All I've seen is personal attacks, claims of special insight into something they know nothing about, and sidestepping the most basic questions.
Weak and stupid.
No, you literally said there is no such thing as an illegitimate tournament - I can go back and quote it if you want? - a view the ITC itself clearly disagrees with.
If you want to walk back your prior argument and make a different argument that's fine, though that seems to fit the definition of "weak" better than anything else in this thread.
tbh, I would just ignore this dude. He could have left the thread ages ago but the dude clearly has skin in this coaching/ITC stuff, keeps ranting off, calling people stupid, etc
techsoldaten wrote:
So this isn't about who can participate in tournaments, this is about public health policy. Got it.
My sister manages a grocery store. She's been customer-facing since day one, sees a lot more people every day than you would at a 24 person tournament.
So you are exaggerating a little bit about the dangers of interacting with others. Millions do it daily without issue.
If you can't figure out the difference between the requirement to buy food and attending a 40k tournament I really can't help you.
techsoldaten wrote:
I've asked you to quantify whatever profit they make make from this, all you've come back with is a hunch.
How much money do you think these guys are making from their coaching service? How much more do you think they're making because one of them is an ITC champion?
I'd bet the answer is less than the cost for a team of people to actually attend tournaments during an average year.
Just answer the question, what makes this team so special that they have to have that title for their business to keep going? You don't really have an answer for that, do you?
And you don't understand the point I'm making here either. I don't have a number to give you, which I made clear in my previous posts. The point, which you seem unable to grasp, is that they have a business venture that generates money for them based on 40k coaching. The amount is irrelevant, assuming it's non-zero, which seems like a safe assumption.
Further, it seems a safe assumption that having a high position in the ITC rankings is beneficial to a business that is based on competence in that system - given two different coaches offering the same service for the same cost and all other things being equal, I suspect a very high proportion of people would choose the coach with the top-10 ITC ranking over the one with a ranking of 500. That's why people are viewing this as potentially shady, because success in 40k tournaments can logically be shown to have a potential impact on the success of their side-business.
Jerram wrote:The best part is their link from best coast pairings that show a heck of alot of tourneys going on (but some reason this one poses a special health risk and deserves punishment for that reason alone).
I ask for a link to the video you don't provide it, you make accusations of rule breaking but don't say which ones or provide proof they did so. I really am undecided but the information in this thread on this board does not support the accusations being thrown around.
Nobody's saying this is the only tournament that shouldn't be running due to Covid, it's just the one that's being discussed here for a different reason. That doesn't change the fact that running a tournament in that location is a bad idea right now.
It is clear this dude has skin in this coaching/ITC raquet, we all get the very common concepts you are talking about
" I don't have a number to give you, which I made clear in my previous posts. The point, which you seem unable to grasp, is that they have a business venture that generates money for them based on 40k coaching. The amount is irrelevant, assuming it's non-zero, which seems like a safe assumption.
Further, it seems a safe assumption that having a high position in the ITC rankings is beneficial to a business that is based on competence in that system - given two different coaches offering the same service for the same cost and all other things being equal, I suspect a very high proportion of people would choose the coach with the top-10 ITC ranking over the one with a ranking of 500. That's why people are viewing this as potentially shady, because success in 40k tournaments can logically be shown to have a potential impact on the success of their side-business. "
we all get that and agree thats the reason why this shady behavior happens. And also a dude above just posted the best evidence of how a chunk of their business (i.e. ITC "Terrain". coaching, etc) revolves around it.
FLG didn't really have a choice but to act in this case, it really exposed the problem with their rankings on such a fundamental level.
People have been farming ITC points for years now by attending lots of events, and that was tacitly condoned, but this took it one step further by holding an event for the specific purpose of allowing a particular player to get himself to the #1 ITC ranking.
And that was just a bridge too far beyond what FLG could accept in terms of their system being manipulated. If they had allowed that, it would have created an arms-race where people were just holding their own events all the time to farm points for themselves.
techsoldaten wrote: So this isn't about who can participate in tournaments, this is about public health policy. Got it.
My sister manages a grocery store. She's been customer-facing since day one, sees a lot more people every day than you would at a 24 person tournament.
So you are exaggerating a little bit about the dangers of interacting with others. Millions do it daily without issue.
If you can't figure out the difference between the requirement to buy food and attending a 40k tournament I really can't help you.
techsoldaten wrote: I've asked you to quantify whatever profit they make make from this, all you've come back with is a hunch.
How much money do you think these guys are making from their coaching service? How much more do you think they're making because one of them is an ITC champion?
I'd bet the answer is less than the cost for a team of people to actually attend tournaments during an average year.
Just answer the question, what makes this team so special that they have to have that title for their business to keep going? You don't really have an answer for that, do you?
And you don't understand the point I'm making here either. I don't have a number to give you, which I made clear in my previous posts. The point, which you seem unable to grasp, is that they have a business venture that generates money for them based on 40k coaching. The amount is irrelevant, assuming it's non-zero, which seems like a safe assumption.
Further, it seems a safe assumption that having a high position in the ITC rankings is beneficial to a business that is based on competence in that system - given two different coaches offering the same service for the same cost and all other things being equal, I suspect a very high proportion of people would choose the coach with the top-10 ITC ranking over the one with a ranking of 500. That's why people are viewing this as potentially shady, because success in 40k tournaments can logically be shown to have a potential impact on the success of their side-business.
No. You're claiming there's some profit to be made in all this, profit can be demonstrated. Explain the scenario where that happens, give us an estimate of what you think they're making by securing the top spot in an amateur wargaming league.
It's not hard. Start by figuring out how much this Team Brohammer makes for an individual session. The information probably be found online, many competitive players publish their rates:
If you can't find that info, you claim to have friends who do coaching. Ask them what they charge, ask how many sessions someone purchases from them on average. Extrapolate what that might be worth over the course of an ITC season, think about how much additional work they are bringing in because of the increased publicity.
Maybe compare their numbers with those of other ITC players to demonstrate the difference that top spot makes. Maybe offer a comparison with what a non-ITC player charges to prove how big a difference exists and how important good ITC performance is.
If you're claiming they're trying to make money off YouTube / Twitch videos, great, that's even easier. Tell me what channels they are and let's look at what they can expect to earn based on subscriber count and views. There's websites that give you those numbers immediately, they show you what channel growth looks like and can even report on things like average revenue from superchats.
This isn't some big research project, no one's asking you to be exact. Take 20 minutes and figure out what you think having that top spot is worth and maybe explain your logic. It's hard for me to see but I would love to be educated.
The reason it's important to put numbers around this is because of that other complaint you dropped, the ITC format. It's a measure of endurance and skill, you have to pay registration fees, travel / lodging expenses, meals, etc in pursuit of that top spot.
All that costs money and there's a lot of people who are very familiar with those kinds of expenses. There's a public record of every tournament the Team Brohammer guys attend and we know approximately where they live. We can compare your numbers with the cost of going to tournaments to get a decent estimate of what they're actually making.
My guess is the cost of pursuing the top spot in ITC exceeds anything anyone makes running a coaching service. I'm also guessing I can find many examples of people who don't participate in ITC but make more money off their streaming channel than these guys do.
But I'd love for you to show me how I'm wrong. Show us how these shady people are gaming ITC and making their shady profits. I want you to know I really appreciate you for shedding light on this important topic, the corrupt underbelly of the amateur wargaming circuit is really a significant issue that needs to be addressed and doing so is worth all the drama along the way. Your interest definitely does not say anything about you as a person other than the fact you're highly intelligent, fun to be around, and worth having as a friend.
techsoldaten wrote:
So this isn't about who can participate in tournaments, this is about public health policy. Got it.
My sister manages a grocery store. She's been customer-facing since day one, sees a lot more people every day than you would at a 24 person tournament.
So you are exaggerating a little bit about the dangers of interacting with others. Millions do it daily without issue.
If you can't figure out the difference between the requirement to buy food and attending a 40k tournament I really can't help you.
techsoldaten wrote:
I've asked you to quantify whatever profit they make make from this, all you've come back with is a hunch.
How much money do you think these guys are making from their coaching service? How much more do you think they're making because one of them is an ITC champion?
I'd bet the answer is less than the cost for a team of people to actually attend tournaments during an average year.
Just answer the question, what makes this team so special that they have to have that title for their business to keep going? You don't really have an answer for that, do you?
And you don't understand the point I'm making here either. I don't have a number to give you, which I made clear in my previous posts. The point, which you seem unable to grasp, is that they have a business venture that generates money for them based on 40k coaching. The amount is irrelevant, assuming it's non-zero, which seems like a safe assumption.
Further, it seems a safe assumption that having a high position in the ITC rankings is beneficial to a business that is based on competence in that system - given two different coaches offering the same service for the same cost and all other things being equal, I suspect a very high proportion of people would choose the coach with the top-10 ITC ranking over the one with a ranking of 500. That's why people are viewing this as potentially shady, because success in 40k tournaments can logically be shown to have a potential impact on the success of their side-business.
No. You're claiming there's some profit to be made in all this, profit can be demonstrated. Explain the scenario where that happens, give us an estimate of what you think they're making by securing the top spot in an amateur wargaming league.
It's not hard. Start by figuring out how much this Team Brohammer makes for an individual session. The information probably be found online, many competitive players publish their rates:
If you can't find that info, you claim to have friends who do coaching. Ask them what they charge, ask how many sessions someone purchases from them on average. Extrapolate what that might be worth over the course of an ITC season, think about how much additional work they are bringing in because of the increased publicity.
Maybe compare their numbers with those of other ITC players to demonstrate the difference that top spot makes. Maybe offer a comparison with what a non-ITC player charges to prove how big a difference exists and how important good ITC performance is.
If you're claiming they're trying to make money off YouTube / Twitch videos, great, that's even easier. Tell me what channels they are and let's look at what they can expect to earn based on subscriber count and views. There's websites that give you those numbers immediately, they show you what channel growth looks like and can even report on things like average revenue from superchats.
This isn't some big research project, no one's asking you to be exact. Take 20 minutes and figure out what you think having that top spot is worth and maybe explain your logic. It's hard for me to see but I would to be educated.
The reason it's important to put numbers around this is because of that other complaint you dropped, the ITC format. It's a measure of endurance and skill, you have to pay registration fees, travel / lodging expenses, meals, etc in pursuit of that top spot.
All that costs money and there's a lot of people who are very familiar with those kinds of expenses. There's a public record of every tournament the Team Brohammer guys attend and we know approximately where they live. We can compare your numbers with the cost of going to tournaments to get a decent estimate of what they're actually making.
My guess is the cost of pursuing the top spot in ITC exceeds anything anyone makes running a coaching service. I'm also guessing I can find many examples of people who don't participate in ITC but make more money off their streaming channel than these guys do.
But I'd love for you to show me how I'm wrong. Show us how these shady people are gaming ITC and making their shady profits. I want you to know I really appreciate you for shedding light on this important, corrupt underbelly in the amateur gaming league circuit. It's an incredibly important topic and your interest definitely does not say anything about you as a person.
jesus... you are still here.. and still hanging on to that broken branch of hOw mUcH dO tHeY mAkE.
Its a very simple concept, if you are high in the rankings, you are a "better" player? Do you get that? I hope so, or this is going to be more difficult.
If you are a "better player" would you charge more or less for coachin? You probably charge more.
With me so far? I am just repeating what everyone else has told you multiple times.
So if they had gotten away with it and kept the points and become the team with the "#1 ITC" player do you think they would have more or fewer clients, than a team without the "#1 player"? Probably more
With regards to the money, the cost of where they live in FL is very cheap. I lived somewhere close and for what I paid for rent 6 months out west, before I bought my house, I can now rent 4 places like that in Florida. With regards to income, they have the warroom which charges $27. Multiply that by 3x the viewers they get on average are about 90-100 people (since probably not everyone watches live). They also have personal clients for $100 a month. Also other client services for $200+/month. And they also do list services and other services.
Given the low cost of living in FL, you can very easily make more than ends meet in a house where a few people do this in the same place.
If you still continue to rant about this, as other people have said, I really can't help you get these very simple concepts.
Also, great job completely leaving out both video clips after you were so eager to get them lmao
You are just making yourself look like a bigger fool by continually not being able to grasp very simple concepts.
This whole thing is a clown show, and you look like you are part of it my clown friend.
gundam wrote: jesus... you are still here.. and still hanging on to that broken branch of hOw mUcH dO tHeY mAkE.
Its a very simple concept, if you are high in the rankings, you are a "better" player? Do you get that? I hope so, or this is going to be more difficult.
If you are a "better player" would you charge more or less for coachin? You probably charge more.
What you make has nothing to do with your hourly rate. People have to be willing to pay for services.
My experience is most wargamers are bargain hunters, the only thing they pay a premium for is GW product. Being the most expensive service works against you unless money doesn't matter.
I don't see evidence that placing high in an ITC eliminates that consideration. Nick Navavati ran a coaching service on his own before joining Nights at the Gaming Table. He was asking for $200+ per session, NotGT charges less. Here are their fees.
That's one example of how amateur wargaming circuit performance does not translate into pricing power, his rates went down 60% - 75%. The reason that happens is because the market cannot bear the higher cost.
I have other examples. Show me an example of where performance does translate into pricing power and stop telling me to take your word for it.
gundam wrote: So if they had gotten away with it and kept the points and become the team with the "#1 ITC" player do you think they would have more or less clients, than a team without the "#1 player"? Probably more
No, that's not self-evident for reasons I've already cited.
If your friend comes back with actual numbers, I'll be happy to consider them.
gundam wrote: With regards to the money, the cost of where they live in FL is very cheap. I lived somewhere close and for what I paid for rent 6 months out west, before I bought my house, now I can rent 4 places like that in Florida. They have the warroom which charges $27 multiply that by 3x the viewers they get on average are about 90-100 people. They also have personal clients for $100 a month. Also other clients for $200/month. Given the low cost of life in FL, you can very easily make more than ends meet in a house where a few people do this in the same place.
So you're saying they want to live just above the poverty level in a terrible part of the state to pursue the top spot in an amateur wargaming circuit.
You make a lot of sense.
gundam wrote: If you still continue to rant about this, as other people have said, I really can't help you get these very simple concepts.
I've never asked for your help. My rule is to avoid cheats, liars, drunks and junkies. Stop imposing it on me.
gundam wrote: Also, great job completely leaving out both video clips after you were so eager to get them lmao
Pardon me for noticing, but the video doesn't seem to prove your point. Someone calling themselves a ringer in a 15 second clip doesn't mean anything.
gundam wrote: You are just making yourself look like a bigger fool by continually not being able to grasp very simple concepts.
You're the one who can't do math and wants everyone to accept faulty conclusions about business.
gundam wrote: jesus... you are still here.. and still hanging on to that broken branch of hOw mUcH dO tHeY mAkE.
Its a very simple concept, if you are high in the rankings, you are a "better" player? Do you get that? I hope so, or this is going to be more difficult.
If you are a "better player" would you charge more or less for coachin? You probably charge more.
What you make has nothing to do with your hourly rate. People have to be willing to pay for services.
My experience is most wargamers are bargain hunters, the only thing they pay a premium for is GW product. Being the most expensive service works against you unless money doesn't matter.
I don't see evidence that placing high in an ITC eliminates that consideration. Nick Navavati ran a coaching service on his own before joining Nights at the Gaming Table. He was asking for $200+ per session, NotGT charges less. Here are their fees.
That's one example of how amateur wargaming circuit performance does not translate into pricing power, his rates went down 60% - 75%. The reason that happens is because the market cannot bear the higher cost.
I have other examples. Show me an example of where performance does translate into pricing power and stop telling me to take your word for it.
With me so far. I am just repeating what everyone else has told you multiple times.
You are very talented at repeating what others say without considering the point. Bravo!
gundam wrote: So if they had gotten away with it and kept the points and become the team with the "#1 ITC" player do you think they would have more or less clients, than a team without the "#1 player"? Probably more
No, that's not self-evident for reasons I've already cited.
If your friend comes back with actual numbers, I'll be happy to consider them.
gundam wrote: With regards to the money, the cost of where they live in FL is very cheap. I lived somewhere close and for what I paid for rent 6 months out west, before I bought my house, now I can rent 4 places like that in Florida. They have the warroom which charges $27 multiply that by 3x the viewers they get on average are about 90-100 people. They also have personal clients for $100 a month. Also other clients for $200/month. Given the low cost of life in FL, you can very easily make more than ends meet in a house where a few people do this in the same place.
So you're saying they want to live just above the poverty level in a terrible part of the state to pursue the top spot in an amateur wargaming circuit.
You make a lot of sense.
gundam wrote: If you still continue to rant about this, as other people have said, I really can't help you get these very simple concepts.
I've never asked for your help. My rule is to avoid cheats, liars, drunks and junkies. Stop imposing it on me.
gundam wrote: Also, great job completely leaving out both video clips after you were so eager to get them lmao
Pardon me for noticing, but the video doesn't seem to prove your point. Someone calling themselves a ringer in a 15 second clip doesn't mean anything.
gundam wrote: You are just making yourself look like a bigger fool by continually not being able to grasp very simple concepts.
You're the one who can't do math and wants everyone to accept faulty conclusions about business.
This whole thing is a clown show, and you look like you are part of it my clown friend.
Cheers
Honk honk.
1. there were two videos, in both videos he said he was dropping out before facing john. Like I said, you conveniently leave out the most incriminating part of the videos.
2. I didnt say poverty level, don't try to be factitious. All that said is that you can live a pretty comfortable life in florida doing this. I am sure they make more than people working an autozone and another similar type of jobs. Asking for exact figures is irrelevant since you can clearly estimate that they make more than enough to maintain a stress-free lifestyle.
3. Please find something else that brings you joy and try to be less triggered. If continually trolling is your passion, you are probably going to be happier in Reddit.
Again, feel free to ignore the videos or if you do actually mention them, it will be interesting trying to see you do logic gymnastics with them.
It is obvious you are trying really hard to not call a spade for what it is.
From your profile, it wasnt hard to figure out you were the only one defending their clown show and the comments you posted on facebook.
1. there were two videos, in both videos he said he was dropping out before facing john. Like I said, you conveniently leave out the most incriminating part of the videos.
Who cares?
I saw one video, post both the links. The short one just made me think you're really trying hard to find something that's not there.
gundam wrote: 2. I didnt say poverty level, don't try to be factitious. All that said is that you can live a pretty comfortable life in florida doing this. I am sure they make more than people working an autozone and another similar type of jobs. Asking for exact figures is irrelevant since you can clearly estimate that they make more than enough to maintain a stress-free lifestyle.
No, you said they live in the cheapest part of Florida. Now you're trying to frame it as a comfortable lifestyle.
Most people who've spent any time in Florida know what the cheapest parts are like. It's not far above the poverty line.
Stop trying to massage the truth.
gundam wrote: 3. Please find something else that brings you joy and try to be less triggered. If continually trolling is your passion, you are probably going to be happier in Reddit.
Asking for facts instead of accepting accusations because you told me to isn't trolling.
Last response here since it appears we've reached the truly stupid part of the discussion (and the asinine comment about Covid has me very close to breaking rule #1).
There is literally one single point that myself and others are making about the coaching aspect: it's conceivable that your ITC ranking can have a direct effect on your number of customers, what you can charge for coaching, or both. That's it.
The only relevant point here is there is a perception that ITC ranking can have a direct effect on the coaching business. Everyone else seems to accept at least the possibility that a higher ranked player can charge more for their services. As I pointed out in a previous post, all things being equal, I suspect most people who are interested in coaching would prefer to give their money to a higher ranked player than a lower ranked one. If you think that's not true that's fine, but you seem to be the only one disputing that. If we accept that possibility it's not a huge leap of logic to see why people involved in coaching might want to boost their ITC ranking.
Any other costs individuals may incur as a result of their hobby or living conditions are so far out of the scope of this discussion I really don't get why you keep bringing them up.
Slipspace wrote: Last response here since it appears we've reached the truly stupid part of the discussion (and the asinine comment about Covid has me very close to breaking rule #1).
There is literally one single point that myself and others are making about the coaching aspect: it's conceivable that your ITC ranking can have a direct effect on your number of customers, what you can charge for coaching, or both. That's it.
The only relevant point here is there is a perception that ITC ranking can have a direct effect on the coaching business. Everyone else seems to accept at least the possibility that a higher ranked player can charge more for their services. As I pointed out in a previous post, all things being equal, I suspect most people who are interested in coaching would prefer to give their money to a higher ranked player than a lower-ranked one. If you think that's not true that's fine, but you seem to be the only one disputing that. If we accept that possibility it's not a huge leap of logic to see why people involved in coaching might want to boost their ITC ranking.
Any other costs individuals may incur as a result of their hobby or living conditions are so far out of the scope of this discussion I really don't get why you keep bringing them up.
exactly, he is bringing up stuff that has nothing to do with anything on this thread.
In both videos, Siegler literally says he was dropping out before facing John. Yet somehow he cant hear that.
I think his point of trolling was to purposely derail the thread with nonsense. He probably spent too much money on his ITC ranking, memberships, and/or coaching and is now trying really hard to validate the clown show that is compeitive.
No one here wants competitive to fail, but it won't go anywhere as it is. Because like many people have said, competitive as of now is more than endurance competition than a skill competition.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote: Last response here since it appears we've reached the truly stupid part of the discussion (and the asinine comment about Covid has me very close to breaking rule #1).
What else would you expect from a Parler guy? Covid nonsense and Facebook posts about the CCP and how the "media" won't talk about China.
He should have prefaced all of his comments with. "Coming from a Parler member,..."
I think we can still talk and just let him do his thing lol
Slipspace wrote: Last response here since it appears we've reached the truly stupid part of the discussion (and the asinine comment about Covid has me very close to breaking rule #1).
There is literally one single point that myself and others are making about the coaching aspect: it's conceivable that your ITC ranking can have a direct effect on your number of customers, what you can charge for coaching, or both. That's it.
The only relevant point here is there is a perception that ITC ranking can have a direct effect on the coaching business. Everyone else seems to accept at least the possibility that a higher ranked player can charge more for their services. As I pointed out in a previous post, all things being equal, I suspect most people who are interested in coaching would prefer to give their money to a higher ranked player than a lower ranked one. If you think that's not true that's fine, but you seem to be the only one disputing that. If we accept that possibility it's not a huge leap of logic to see why people involved in coaching might want to boost their ITC ranking.
Any other costs individuals may incur as a result of their hobby or living conditions are so far out of the scope of this discussion I really don't get why you keep bringing them up.
And I've cited examples in this thread where top ranked ITC players have to decrease their rates because that's what the market can bear.
That directly contradicts your point, only I'm not asking anyone to take my word for it.
Funny how you people screeching about how everything's so shady can't listen to facts and adjust your story to fit reality. All you know how to do is whine.
The only reason I started following the competitive scene is because of a similar thread a few years ago. After three years of listening to this garbage, it's clear you're all just a bunch of phonies.
IT would be interesting to see if they take this video down.
Maybe just find a different outlet since you just seem very triggered by shady behavior in a plastic toy game. It is a bid sad tbh
Wow. Great job misrepresenting what they said. To paraphrase them:
1. Siegler was one of two possible ringer. The second was the store owner who had more important things to do.
2. Siegler didn't intent to play three games in the first place, but there keep being an odd number of players.
3. Siegler definitely didn't want to keep playing and find the ringer playing Nanavati in Round 5 for 1st place.
This isn't proof of some evil collusion. Just a couple of guys stating what happened.
I think that's the reason why sports usually have indipendent (or pseudo-indipendent) commissions that determine the calendar and similar stuff...
For example, having a limited number of events would raise the bar for competitiveness. At the same time, it will limits the amount of business they can generate.
We can think about averages or other scoring systems that remove the number of games as variables (or limit it drastically: averages for example)...
But in the end I think really there isn't a feasible solution different from a drastic separation of the management of the competition from the business side.
I understand the competitive bandwagon that is the current driver for 40k: I also think it's a bubble more than a sounded strategy.
Probably and international circuit of recognized game to play Crusade will be more suited to the hobby (like the Adventurer League for D&D). Aiming to e-sport instead is the most easy and basic solution... But it really don't fit with 40k.
Just check the tournament attendance: half the people are there only to play a few games in a day without caring much for the competition?
It's an incredibly high number, the only sport with similar "fluffy" competition is probably cycling...and in this case the challenge is often with yourself.
So, this is a particularly bad situation from a marketing point of view. But issues with ITC are deeper and quite different.
But those are you soldier and, in the end, who cares?
IT would be interesting to see if they take this video down.
Maybe just find a different outlet since you just seem very triggered by shady behavior in a plastic toy game. It is a bid sad tbh
Wow. Great job misrepresenting what they said. To paraphrase them:
1. Siegler was one of two possible ringer. The second was the store owner who had more important things to do.
2. Siegler didn't intent to play three games in the first place, but there keep being an odd number of players.
3. Siegler definitely didn't want to keep playing and find the ringer playing Nanavati in Round 5 for 1st place.
This isn't proof of some evil collusion. Just a couple of guys stating what happened.
it is not evil collusion, just a looney tunes type scheme for ITC points lol
plus you are paraphrasing them wrong, it was John the player they are trying to boost (as was in the video) and it wasnt Nanavati.
Paraphrase does not mean what you think it means. You cant just change the content of your video in your summary. Why take a super strong list as a ringer, take out the stronger competition and then say on video multiple times you were dropping out before playing John, since that was the player closest to number 1.
Anyways, we appreciate the memes. This thread had everything from Home Alone type schemes, Legend of Bagger Vance Golf Stories, Mr Parler himself techsoldaten taking this thread on a wild ride of irrelevant threads.
Update: I just got a DM that Netflix just greenlit this thread
AduroT wrote: Same kind of stuff happened in the Warmachine circuit as well so I’m not at all surprised. A stink was raised when in the final round of a tournament where the winner got a spot in a later invitational, his opponent who was a friend of his and had already previously won a spot in an earlier event forfeit.
The very idea of "teams" in an individually-ranked environment is a recipe for collusion.
By "teams" we're literally talking about "a group of friends that carpooled to the event". You can give it a label but this is not exactly a hobby that works without connecting with opponents.
IT would be interesting to see if they take this video down.
Maybe just find a different outlet since you just seem very triggered by shady behavior in a plastic toy game. It is a bid sad tbh
Wow. Great job misrepresenting what they said. To paraphrase them:
1. Siegler was one of two possible ringer. The second was the store owner who had more important things to do.
2. Siegler didn't intent to play three games in the first place, but there keep being an odd number of players.
3. Siegler definitely didn't want to keep playing and find the ringer playing Nanavati in Round 5 for 1st place.
This isn't proof of some evil collusion. Just a couple of guys stating what happened.
it is not evil collusion, just a looney tunes type scheme for ITC points lol
plus you are paraphrasing them wrong, it was John the player they are trying to boost (as was in the video) and it wasnt Nanavati.
Paraphrase does not mean what you think it means. You cant just change the content of your video in your summary. Why take a super strong list as a ringer, take out the stronger competition and then say on video multiple times you were dropping out before playing John, since that was the player closest to number 1.
Anyways, we appreciate the memes. This thread had everything from Home Alone type schemes, Legend of Bagger Vance Golf Stories, Mr Parler himself techsoldaten taking this thread on a wild ride of irrelevant threads.
Update: I just got a DM that Netflix just greenlit this thread
Oh no! I got the name wrong, but other wise my point is correct. He never intended to play the entire tournament, he was the ringer. Playing three games was more than he expected to play and he definatly didn't want to pay John (who he must have been assuming would be in the place to win) in the finals if he keep playing as the ringer and winning. It's not like that's the ringer's job after all. Although I do have to wonder how the ringer could end up in that position anyway?
IT would be interesting to see if they take this video down.
Maybe just find a different outlet since you just seem very triggered by shady behavior in a plastic toy game. It is a bid sad tbh
Wow. Great job misrepresenting what they said. To paraphrase them:
1. Siegler was one of two possible ringer. The second was the store owner who had more important things to do.
2. Siegler didn't intent to play three games in the first place, but there keep being an odd number of players.
3. Siegler definitely didn't want to keep playing and find the ringer playing Nanavati in Round 5 for 1st place.
This isn't proof of some evil collusion. Just a couple of guys stating what happened.
it is not evil collusion, just a looney tunes type scheme for ITC points lol
plus you are paraphrasing them wrong, it was John the player they are trying to boost (as was in the video) and it wasnt Nanavati.
Paraphrase does not mean what you think it means. You cant just change the content of your video in your summary. Why take a super strong list as a ringer, take out the stronger competition and then say on video multiple times you were dropping out before playing John, since that was the player closest to number 1.
Anyways, we appreciate the memes. This thread had everything from Home Alone type schemes, Legend of Bagger Vance Golf Stories, Mr Parler himself techsoldaten taking this thread on a wild ride of irrelevant threads.
Update: I just got a DM that Netflix just greenlit this thread
Oh no! I got the name wrong, but other wise my point is correct. He never intended to play the entire tournament, he was the ringer. Playing three games was more than he expected to play and he definatly didn't want to pay John (who he must have been assuming would be in the place to win) in the finals if he keep playing as the ringer and winning. It's not like that's the ringer's job after all. Although I do have to wonder how the ringer could end up in that position anyway?
by unintentionally taking the strongest list possible to knock out every strong player against John?
I like the AoW40k crowd. They make cool streams and they seem like cool guys. I honestly don't think they really realized how problematic what they were doing is. The only part of what techsoldaten said that is valid is that top players probably are so focused on winning that they often lose sight of whether the way they're doing it is problematic. I suspect to them it was a small step from "farm ITC points by going to lots of events," something that has been tacitly accepted by the ITC, to "create our own events and tailor them to farm ITC points for our guy," something that was a bridge too far.
That said, it's super obvious in this case that they set up and tailored an event specifically to farm as many points for Lennon as they could. And the ITC rightly said "that's not cool, and it violates the spirit of our rules."
Hopefully this will prompt the ITC to either abandon the whole points thing as hopelessly flawed, or to really tighten up on how points can be farmed.
techsoldaten wrote: In high school, I was a scratch golfer. I made money through private lessons, caddying and bets on the outcomes of competitive games. I shot a 70 on a bad day. There is nothing wrong with having a talent and sharing it with others even when it's for money. There is nothing wrong with using competition to promote your talents, yourself as a person, some group you belong to, etc. That's how the world should work.
Expanding on the golf thing, I used to call myself the Golden Boy and make outlandish claims about being the best there ever has been, telling people they're lucky to be seeing me before I peak, asking men to keep their wives away to avoid alienation of affection, and how I'm related to Rick Flair and got all the good genes that skipped him.
None of that was true, nor is there anything wrong with the fact I said it.
I just wanted to pull out this absolute gem from page two. When 40k is being associated with 'there is nothing wrong with lying to exploit others for personal gain' I think we all lose.
yukishiro1 wrote: I like the AoW40k crowd. They make cool streams and they seem like cool guys. I honestly don't think they really realized how problematic what they were doing is. The only part of what techsoldaten said that is valid is that top players probably are so focused on winning that they often lose sight of whether the way they're doing it is problematic. I suspect to them it was a small step from "farm ITC points by going to lots of events," something that has been tacitly accepted by the ITC, to "create our own events and tailor them to farm ITC points for our guy," something that was a bridge too far.
That said, it's super obvious in this case that they set up and tailored an event specifically to farm as many points for Lennon as they could. And the ITC rightly said "that's not cool, and it violates the spirit of our rules."
Hopefully this will prompt the ITC to either abandon the whole points thing as hopelessly flawed, or to really tighten up on how points can be farmed.
This seems most likely. I don't think they were sitting there with a profit/loss spreadsheet cackling maniacally while they hatched their plot to top the ITC rankings. Someone made an interesting point earlier in the thread that one of the skills of 40k is finding and exploiting loopholes and edge cases and this seems like a bit of an extension of that. Doesn't make what they did any less problematic but it does highlight an area of concern the ITC might want to look at.
techsoldaten wrote: In high school, I was a scratch golfer. I made money through private lessons, caddying and bets on the outcomes of competitive games. I shot a 70 on a bad day. There is nothing wrong with having a talent and sharing it with others even when it's for money. There is nothing wrong with using competition to promote your talents, yourself as a person, some group you belong to, etc. That's how the world should work.
Expanding on the golf thing, I used to call myself the Golden Boy and make outlandish claims about being the best there ever has been, telling people they're lucky to be seeing me before I peak, asking men to keep their wives away to avoid alienation of affection, and how I'm related to Rick Flair and got all the good genes that skipped him.
None of that was true, nor is there anything wrong with the fact I said it.
I just wanted to pull out this absolute gem from page two. When 40k is being associated with 'there is nothing wrong with lying to exploit others for personal gain' I think we all lose.
Lying to exploit others for personal gain?
As a young adult, I talked about myself as though I was a professional wrestler. I also taught people how to swing, caddied and played as a fourth when someone in a party had to drop out. On occasion, I would play in a tournament, and sometimes I'd even gamble on the game. If you wanted to be a better player, you could do worse than hanging out with me for an afternoon.
Help me understand how anyone was being deceived or exploited.
I played without a handicap, hard to be more transparent than that. Telling men to hide their wives or risk losing them is not something that's going to confuse anyone, just make them laugh. Their wives thought it was funny too, I'd tell them to have some drinks ready when I come around with the truck to help them move their stuff.
The whole point of that story was there is nothing wrong with having a talent and making money off it. That's pretty much how everything in the world works.
The tough part is the feelings of jealousy and resentment talent fosters in others. I ran into that sometimes too. Got kicked out of the pro shop a couple times because somebody had some sore feelings.
Almost makes you think there's this kind of person who just wants everyone else to lose because they never win. That kind of person makes up all sorts of stories - in my case, accusations about being too good looking - to limit you in some way, make your talents less relevant because they don't have them. Rumors and innuendo are a dirty thing.
That said, it's super obvious in this case that they set up and tailored an event specifically to farm as many points for Lennon as they could. And the ITC rightly said "that's not cool, and it violates the spirit of our rules."
.
I think that was obvious for everyone with common sense. I hope the guys just revaluate doing something like that in the future. And lastly, I hope the ITC revises their points system so it is less of a points farming/endurance competition and more skill-based on averages
techsoldaten wrote: In high school, I was a scratch golfer. I made money through private lessons, caddying and bets on the outcomes of competitive games. I shot a 70 on a bad day. There is nothing wrong with having a talent and sharing it with others even when it's for money. There is nothing wrong with using competition to promote your talents, yourself as a person, some group you belong to, etc. That's how the world should work.
Expanding on the golf thing, I used to call myself the Golden Boy and make outlandish claims about being the best there ever has been, telling people they're lucky to be seeing me before I peak, asking men to keep their wives away to avoid alienation of affection, and how I'm related to Rick Flair and got all the good genes that skipped him.
None of that was true, nor is there anything wrong with the fact I said it.
I just wanted to pull out this absolute gem from page two. When 40k is being associated with 'there is nothing wrong with lying to exploit others for personal gain' I think we all lose.
yikes....
techsoldaten is the parler-covid-is-nothing-ccp-china dakka member who just keeps on giving
techsoldaten wrote: In high school, I was a scratch golfer. I made money through private lessons, caddying and bets on the outcomes of competitive games. I shot a 70 on a bad day. There is nothing wrong with having a talent and sharing it with others even when it's for money. There is nothing wrong with using competition to promote your talents, yourself as a person, some group you belong to, etc. That's how the world should work.
Expanding on the golf thing, I used to call myself the Golden Boy and make outlandish claims about being the best there ever has been, telling people they're lucky to be seeing me before I peak, asking men to keep their wives away to avoid alienation of affection, and how I'm related to Rick Flair and got all the good genes that skipped him.
None of that was true, nor is there anything wrong with the fact I said it.
I just wanted to pull out this absolute gem from page two. When 40k is being associated with 'there is nothing wrong with lying to exploit others for personal gain' I think we all lose.
Lying to exploit others for personal gain?
As a young adult, I talked about myself as though I was a professional wrestler. I also taught people how to swing, caddied and played as a fourth when someone in a party had to drop out. On occasion, I would play in a tournament, and sometimes I'd even gamble on the game. If you wanted to be a better player, you could do worse than hanging out with me for an afternoon.
Help me understand how anyone was being deceived or exploited.
I played without a handicap, hard to be more transparent than that. Telling men to hide their wives or risk losing them is not something that's going to confuse anyone, just make them laugh. Their wives thought it was funny too, I'd tell them to have some drinks ready when I come around with the truck to help them move their stuff.
The whole point of that story was there is nothing wrong with having a talent and making money off it. That's pretty much how everything in the world works.
The tough part is the feelings of jealousy and resentment talent fosters in others. I ran into that sometimes too. Got kicked out of the pro shop a couple times because somebody had some sore feelings.
Almost makes you think there's this kind of person who just wants everyone else to lose because they never win. That kind of person makes up all sorts of stories - in my case, accusations about being too good looking - to limit you in some way, make your talents less relevant because they don't have them. Rumors and innuendo are a dirty thing.
Wonder what the name is for that kind of person.
My comment wasn't directed at you, it was to the thread in general. To put it as politely as I can; there is no way you will understand my perspective. We're too far apart
techsoldaten wrote: In high school, I was a scratch golfer. I made money through private lessons, caddying and bets on the outcomes of competitive games. I shot a 70 on a bad day. There is nothing wrong with having a talent and sharing it with others even when it's for money. There is nothing wrong with using competition to promote your talents, yourself as a person, some group you belong to, etc. That's how the world should work.
Expanding on the golf thing, I used to call myself the Golden Boy and make outlandish claims about being the best there ever has been, telling people they're lucky to be seeing me before I peak, asking men to keep their wives away to avoid alienation of affection, and how I'm related to Rick Flair and got all the good genes that skipped him.
None of that was true, nor is there anything wrong with the fact I said it.
I just wanted to pull out this absolute gem from page two. When 40k is being associated with 'there is nothing wrong with lying to exploit others for personal gain' I think we all lose.
Posts like that one make me wish there was a dakkadakka hall of fame. Shine on, nature boy! Woo!
The Legend of Bagger Vance thing had me cracking up, what a tool.
What people also need to realize is that it's not just FLG/ITC involvement with the tournament scene, it's GW. Their recent Metawatch posts with tongue-in-cheek "ratings" of these "top players" is now in full view of a very large community. Not sure how they will feel about points-padding tournaments, but ITC will need to keep that in mind when deciding how to police events moving forward.
bullyboy wrote: The Legend of Bagger Vance thing had me cracking up, what a tool.
What people also need to realize is that it's not just FLG/ITC involvement with the tournament scene, it's GW. Their recent Metawatch posts with tongue-in-cheek "ratings" of these "top players" is now in full view of a very large community. Not sure how they will feel about points-padding tournaments, but ITC will need to keep that in mind when deciding how to police events moving forward.
yeah that parler golfer guy is something else... a living sad dank meme lol
probably the reason why the ITC did nothing with regards to the very obvious points farming/padding. GW is getting its competitive toes wet now so no reason to punish the metawatch bros in this home alone itc points ponzi scheme lol
This reminds me of the first and only Mordheim campaign I tried to run back in the day. In the first week, one player recorded a half dozen slaughters against his little brother and showed up to play the rest of us with hired mercenaries and all kinds of exotic weapons.
Oaka wrote: This reminds me of the first and only Mordheim campaign I tried to run back in the day. In the first week, one player recorded a half dozen slaughters against his little brother and showed up to play the rest of us with hired mercenaries and all kinds of exotic weapons.
Oh man, that reminds me of a thing GW ran where you were tracking wins and turning them in with your local store to be certified. The guy who won had like the week off work or something, and just played an ungodly number of games against his kid/s. And that wasn’t hearsay, it’s what he told GW in his victory interview. It was ridiculous.
The idea someone would take a beer and pretzels game that was designed to be played with your buddies over a couple drinks to a level where there is organized rigging of rankings is comic gold. Seriously people are cheating the system to seem better at a toy soldier game to the other players of the game.
Someone needs to call up Christopher Guest, I think we found the story for his next mockumentary.
I'd love to see Louis Theroux cover it.
I was surprised to discover just how seriously 'Warhammer' tournaments were being taken by the community and Tom seemed eager to answer my questions.
"So a lot of people have told me you treat this like a serious sport?" "E-Spots are a thing, video games...the Olympics recognised them." "Okay but, these are toy soldiers aren't they? Is there a physical aspect to it?" "They're miniatures and, uhh, y-you spend a lot of time standing up at tables." "And how much would you say a... tournament winning 'army' costs you?" "About a thousand dollars." "A thousand dollars? And you have multiple of these?" "S-sometimes I, uh, flip them on Ebay..." "And there's a market for that?" "Y-yeah, when... when people see my- our name on it, they want the army." "Like you're some kind of celebrity?" "Haha yeah... sometimes I coach people too." "You coach people how to play with these miniatures? And they pay you money for that?" "There's, uhh, a lot of complexity and depth... and skill involved, board control and stuff, and uhh, people don't realise just how much goes into it." "But you buy a new army every month or so don't you? Some might say, um, it's your equipment winning for you." "There's... there's more to it than that, not everyone can just show up with a powerful army... they gotta know board control, tempo, watch the clock..." "So when you win a tournament, what do you usually win, is it a cash prize?" "Sometimes it's prize support from the company, so more models and stuff." "Do they ever reimburse you for the flights and hotels?" "S-sometimes." "What does your partner think about all this?" [Awkward Pause]
I was eager to play a game of Warhammer and understand what brought these men so much joy, *Camera cuts to shot of a distant table where a man throws his arms up and looks visibly upset* And distress. Tom had offered me the use of his latest purchase, a collection he referred to as 'Prime Marines'.
Due to the absurdity, I think we need Werner Herzog to direct and narrate.
What did people expect to happen when you start to organize a "competitive" scene where winning is all that matters? For people who care so much about winning, they will find a way to win.
Pro sports are not exempt from this type of thing, so why would we think Warhams could be? I mean FIFA, the Patriots, Pro Cycling, etc, etc, etc.
Personally, I like to keep the competition out of my hobbies. If I wanted that level of competition, I would just go to work or maybe even wake up?
The idea someone would take a beer and pretzels game that was designed to be played with your buddies over a couple drinks to a level where there is organized rigging of rankings is comic gold. Seriously people are cheating the system to seem better at a toy soldier game to the other players of the game.
Someone needs to call up Christopher Guest, I think we found the story for his next mockumentary.
I'd love to see Louis Theroux cover it.
I was surprised to discover just how seriously 'Warhammer' tournaments were being taken by the community and Tom seemed eager to answer my questions.
"So a lot of people have told me you treat this like a serious sport?"
"E-Spots are a thing, video games...the Olympics recognised them."
"Okay but, these are toy soldiers aren't they? Is there a physical aspect to it?"
"They're miniatures and, uhh, y-you spend a lot of time standing up at tables."
"And how much would you say a... tournament winning 'army' costs you?"
"About a thousand dollars."
"A thousand dollars? And you have multiple of these?"
"S-sometimes I, uh, flip them on Ebay..."
"And there's a market for that?"
"Y-yeah, when... when people see my- our name on it, they want the army."
"Like you're some kind of celebrity?"
"Haha yeah... sometimes I coach people too."
"You coach people how to play with these miniatures? And they pay you money for that?"
"There's, uhh, a lot of complexity and depth... and skill involved, board control and stuff, and uhh, people don't realise just how much goes into it."
"But you buy a new army every month or so don't you? Some might say, um, it's your equipment winning for you."
"There's... there's more to it than that, not everyone can just show up with a powerful army... they gotta know board control, tempo, watch the clock..."
"So when you win a tournament, what do you usually win, is it a cash prize?"
"Sometimes it's prize support from the company, so more models and stuff."
"Do they ever reimburse you for the flights and hotels?"
"S-sometimes."
"What does your partner think about all this?"
[Awkward Pause]
I was eager to play a game of Warhammer and understand what brought these men so much joy, *Camera cuts to shot of a distant table where a man throws his arms up and looks visibly upset* And distress. Tom had offered me the use of his latest purchase, a collection he referred to as 'Prime Marines'.
[Awkward Pause] should be the mockumentary title lmao
![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
not gonna lie, that is some serious 
