Just saw this:
https://spikeybits.com/2021/02/rumors-warhammer-old-world-not-28mm-scale.html

Does anyone know if this rumour has popped up elsewhere? Any chance it might be true, and if so what are people's thoughts?

It's Spikeybits.

Your guess is as good as theirs because you'll have about as much proof as them (none).

Said it before, this could be GWs chanse to hit two birds with one stone: combine WH fantasy and Warmaster!

To quote your previous president... Fake News. SpikeyBits is the lowest of the lowest hanging clickbait my friend.

Spikeybits is the WeGotThisCovered of the miniature world.

Spikybits is basically an advertising website that uses clickbait titles for articles that are often little more than guesswork based off forums.


GW has given no indication that Old World will be a different scale game. Considering that they want it to "be what Horus Heresy is to 40K" and that they specifically advertised it with an old regular square base and that their smaller scale games tend to sell worse (Epic has been born and died several times and warmaster was never really pushed off the ground).


Suffice to say that there is no evidence save for Warmaster fans hoping. Heck GW hasn't even brought epic back for 40K and every time it comes up the Adepticus Titanicus Team say "NO"

What would work best with Total War? After all thats a big big market and they are working closely with them

Warmaster scale would work best with Total War if you're trying to capture the look, size, and feel of the battles in that game.

I'm of the opinion that if total war fans want a giant class.of.armies they are gonna keep playing total war rather than jump to a Warminster scaled game, where as the 28-30mm of warhammer proper has nice flashy figures to grab attention with.

Spikeybits. Manic speculation from “sources”

Best to ignore them and fervently hope they go away.

Spikeybits.

However, a smaller scaled rank and file game would be fun from GW.

Total war generates interest in the brand, but GW aren't going to bring back Warmaster because of TW. Warmaster scale games are simply far less popular in general. Heck a huge chunk of the 3-15 and even 18mm market is one-man garage band companies making models which in general get cross used for all kinds of different brand games.

Even in historical games there's a similar approach with only a few companies making a bigger "all under one brand" style products.

Suffice to say its niche and whilst GW could certainly do it ( and with their focus on long term specialist game support right now they might actually do a good job of releasing and marketing the games not just release and death which happened a lot for Epic/Warmaster)



Personally I'm always sad that I never got into Warmaster; I'd love a game of that scale in fantasy from GW and I think AoS would do fantastically well from it. Letting you have big rank and file armies and epic godbeasts, gods and warbeasts and the like. But considering GW is already dragging their heels with Epic, I just can't see them chasing that game option at this stage

chaos0xomega wrote:
Warmaster scale would work best with Total War if you're trying to capture the look, size, and feel of the battles in that game.

Warmaster was 10mm I think?

I reckon the best scale for big battles is ~15mm, or half GW's typical size. Small enough that you can paint a model in a few minutes, but big enough that the models still look distinct and can be painted up nicely without a microscope.

I find the problem with 6 to 10mm scale is the infantry models become too abstract because they're just too small. Vehicles and monsters might look okay, but your basic infantry dude doesn't.

Definitely a benefit to smaller scales in the context of the Old World is that GW could make entire armies with just a couple of sprues, reducing their investment and development time. Creating a range like WHFB used to have is going to take a long time and isn't really practical alongside 40k and AoS.

 Overread wrote:
Total war generates interest in the brand, but GW aren't going to bring back Warmaster because of TW. Warmaster scale games are simply far less popular in general. Heck a huge chunk of the 3-15 and even 18mm market is one-man garage band companies making models which in general get cross used for all kinds of different brand games.

Even in historical games there's a similar approach with only a few companies making a bigger "all under one brand" style products.

Suffice to say its niche and whilst GW could certainly do it ( and with their focus on long term specialist game support right now they might actually do a good job of releasing and marketing the games not just release and death which happened a lot for Epic/Warmaster)



Personally I'm always sad that I never got into Warmaster; I'd love a game of that scale in fantasy from GW and I think AoS would do fantastically well from it. Letting you have big rank and file armies and epic godbeasts, gods and warbeasts and the like. But considering GW is already dragging their heels with Epic, I just can't see them chasing that game option at this stage

There’s also the concept art they’ve shown off so far.

The Kislev stuff isn’t detail for 6mm or whatever scale Warmaster was. Not even close. Example?



That is not planning for the detail limiting 6mm. 28 or 32mm? Yes, either or, or indeed GW’s own peculiar ‘somewhere in between fluctuating between units and armies’.

GW are resurrecting The Old World. And let’s face it, they’re probably doing it to see off competitors such as Mantic. The more of the overall market GW cater for, the more money they bring in. As GW stands right now, such projects need only break even in terms of sales, because they’re currently absolutely killing it in terms of income.

Aash wrote:
Just saw this:
https://spikeybits.com/2021/02/rumors-warhammer-old-world-not-28mm-scale.html

Does anyone know if this rumour has popped up elsewhere? Any chance it might be true, and if so what are people's thoughts?

It's not true. It was garbage speculation that garbage sites like Spikey Bits ran with.

This whole thing was discussed months ago.

well, not giving Spikeybits any clicks, but some thoughts about the whole situation:

GW has 3 big games, and several side games
the licence of one of it is going to end soon and they have the old IP for Fantasy Battles unused

all 3 main games are Skirmish games as GW does not see 28mm R&F suitable with their business model of good looking high quality (hence expensive) miniatures

so 2 possibilities

Old World is going to be a specialist game, with 28mm models
some plastic ones from a core box and the rest supplied by FW Resin with either upgrades for the plastic models to turn them into different human factions and or full Resin models for the non-human ones
with the current low afford strategy for the rules, GW will get previous rules as a base, either 6th Edi Ravening Hordes, or 8th and expanding them over time with scenario books

this will be a niche within a niche (like Necromunda or Adeptus Titanicus) and aimed at the old crowed and expensive (they know that a lot of people will just use the old models)


the other possibility is that GW is going to replace LotR as main game with an R&F game

and here is were the smaller scale fits in
because for a main game, GW cannot invest a lot of money and people just using old models to play or even go for community rules and just buying some new heroes from time to time
they need something that is different for all people to buy it

some odd scale, like 12/16/18mm plastic would be the choice to have something new
units will still be standard GW price point and in line with the other games (instead of the 160€ for a 40 models unit in 8th, it will be 40-80 for a 16mm 40 model unit)
and the rules will be similar but differnt from the past

advantage for GW is that were a single sprue for 28mm is limited, a sprue for 12-18mm can have the full formation on it, like 2-3 units and support models, making only 1 sprue per faction necessary to start the game with a decent amount of options

Spikeybits just read weird fan theories on forums and run with it. There has been ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to indicate a smaller scale.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

GW are resurrecting The Old World. And let’s face it, they’re probably doing it to see off competitors such as Mantic. The more of the overall market GW cater for, the more money they bring in. As GW stands right now, such projects need only break even in terms of sales, because they’re currently absolutely killing it in terms of income.

I get the feeling it's probably more to do with GW's current ethos (which is actually pretty wonderful, after the barren years of a decade ago) of just making new games and being lead by their designers. I shouldn't think Mantic or other similar games even come into the equation from a business perspective (I can imagine there is a massive gulf in terms of income between the two) - other than there being that small games developer social circle in Nottingham, many having started their careers in GW, and by extension I assume a bunch of them all knowing each other.

Overread wrote:
Suffice to say that there is no evidence save for Warmaster fans hoping. Heck GW hasn't even brought epic back for 40K and every time it comes up the Adepticus Titanicus Team say "NO"

I think the reason Epic won't happen is because of the amount of new SKUs that would be required to do the game any kind of justice. Remember, it did used to be the 3rd 'main system' and although the memories are now getting a bit hazy it did used to have a fair amount of wall space. Conversely, this is precisely why WH Old World is likely to be a 28mm range. There are still quite a few of the older WHFB sculpts about - let's be honest, most of them don't really fit with the wild and wacky world of AoS, so would make more sense to plug them back in with a new game of the Old World, alongside some new releases.

I doubt a single model will be carried over from the existing post-WHFB AOS line. The whole point of this enterprise is to sell the nostalgic people new models after all, not offer stuff you could've bought 10 years ago when WHFB was dying.
They will release new sculpts, and yes probably in 28mm, to keep the people with real or 2nd hand nostalgia (the TW:WH players that might be persuaded to buy toys) in the GW "ecology".

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Total war generates interest in the brand, but GW aren't going to bring back Warmaster because of TW. Warmaster scale games are simply far less popular in general. Heck a huge chunk of the 3-15 and even 18mm market is one-man garage band companies making models which in general get cross used for all kinds of different brand games.

Even in historical games there's a similar approach with only a few companies making a bigger "all under one brand" style products.

Suffice to say its niche and whilst GW could certainly do it ( and with their focus on long term specialist game support right now they might actually do a good job of releasing and marketing the games not just release and death which happened a lot for Epic/Warmaster)



Personally I'm always sad that I never got into Warmaster; I'd love a game of that scale in fantasy from GW and I think AoS would do fantastically well from it. Letting you have big rank and file armies and epic godbeasts, gods and warbeasts and the like. But considering GW is already dragging their heels with Epic, I just can't see them chasing that game option at this stage

There’s also the concept art they’ve shown off so far.

The Kislev stuff isn’t detail for 6mm or whatever scale Warmaster was. Not even close. Example?

Spoiler:

That is not planning for the detail limiting 6mm. 28 or 32mm? Yes, either or, or indeed GW’s own peculiar ‘somewhere in between fluctuating between units and armies’.

GW are resurrecting The Old World. And let’s face it, they’re probably doing it to see off competitors such as Mantic. The more of the overall market GW cater for, the more money they bring in. As GW stands right now, such projects need only break even in terms of sales, because they’re currently absolutely killing it in terms of income.

Warmaster was bigger than 6mm, I think it was 10mm. The models looked a lot nicer than Epic, which was 6mm(-ish), and were more distinctive.

But yeah, I think 15mm is an ideal scale (Flames of War scale, and while some older Flames of War models look a bit derpy the more recent kits show how good a 15mm model can look). At 15mm scale you can still pick out things like heroes and lords.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:



The Kislev stuff isn’t detail for 6mm or whatever scale Warmaster was. Not even close. Example?



That is not planning for the detail limiting 6mm. 28 or 32mm? Yes, either or, or indeed GW’s own peculiar ‘somewhere in between fluctuating between units and armies’.

That's also an extremely big bear in 32mm for a niche game with barely any production resources that might be confined to one starter box.

I've always said TOW is going to be smaller scale. It'll cut down production costs, make it more affordable to build big armies and avoid players just using their old WHFB (or, gasp!, Mantic) minis. Probably won't be 10mm tho, wouldn't want folks using Warmaster minis either. Something like 13 mm probably and call it 1/3 AoS scale like Titanicus is 1/4 40k scale.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Warmaster scale would work best with Total War if you're trying to capture the look, size, and feel of the battles in that game.

Warmaster was 10mm I think?

I reckon the best scale for big battles is ~15mm, or half GW's typical size. Small enough that you can paint a model in a few minutes, but big enough that the models still look distinct and can be painted up nicely without a microscope.

I find the problem with 6 to 10mm scale is the infantry models become too abstract because they're just too small. Vehicles and monsters might look okay, but your basic infantry dude doesn't.

Definitely a benefit to smaller scales in the context of the Old World is that GW could make entire armies with just a couple of sprues, reducing their investment and development time. Creating a range like WHFB used to have is going to take a long time and isn't really practical alongside 40k and AoS.

Yeah, I was using "warmaster scale" as a catch-all to describe anything in the 10-20mm range. I simply don't think 28mm is a suitable scale for a proper big battle rank n file experience, its too expensive to collect and requires far too large of a table in order to get the proper experience out of it (and with GWs new and improved smaller table standards, which I have no doubt The Old World will be adopting, I struggle to imagine a 28mm rank n file game being played on it, unless its a skirmish game where a "horde" army like skaven top out at a max of 30-40 minis for the entire army). Smaller scale miniatures on the other hand would work best, and simply put I think 15mm is probably the superior scale option for this application (and indeed its a massively popular scale with lots of support behind it despite allegations to the contrary).

There’s also the concept art they’ve shown off so far.

The Kislev stuff isn’t detail for 6mm or whatever scale Warmaster was. Not even close. Example?



That is not planning for the detail limiting 6mm. 28 or 32mm? Yes, either or, or indeed GW’s own peculiar ‘somewhere in between fluctuating between units and armies’.

GW are resurrecting The Old World. And let’s face it, they’re probably doing it to see off competitors such as Mantic. The more of the overall market GW cater for, the more money they bring in. As GW stands right now, such projects need only break even in terms of sales, because they’re currently absolutely killing it in terms of income.

You have to keep in mind the concept art was part of the development work done for Total War. A 15mm miniature might not need that level of detail (actually, thats false - you could capture most of that detail in plastic 15mm kit), but video game renders sure do.

the other possibility is that GW is going to replace LotR as main game with an R&F game

Lets keep in mind that LotR is itself at a smaller scale - 25mm.



Anyway, I struggle to imagine the game working at GW's "28mm" (i.e. more like 32mm) scale for a whole host of reasons, but its also true that I struggle to imagine GW bucking trends and going for 15mm or smaller because they are still pushing the "We are a miniatures company" angle primarily. I would not be surprised to see GW announce the game at 20mm or 25mm though - especially if they are dropping the LotR license (and I think its not a coincidence that the LotR license would expire roughly around the same time that this game would be ready to release, ~2023). You can pack details comparable to a 28mm mini into those scales but still have them small and cheap enough to actually play a mass battle rank n file game with them.

I tend to prioritize "game" over "miniature", so my preference would be smaller than 20mm, but I have a suspicion that LotR is going away and TOW is going to end up being 25mm as its a scale that GWs sculptors and production engineers and machinists, etc. are already familiar with and know how to work, and has already been established as being seen by GW itself as a "hobbyist scale" (whereas going smaller than that would push it more into game piece territory). Its slightly less ideal from a gaming standpoint as the difference in footprint of a 25mm and a 28/32mm miniature are somewhat trivial on an individual basis, but if you're putting the minis in rank n file you can easily fit 2x more 25mm miniatures within the same footprint of a block of GWs 28mm/32mm miniatures. You could probably push it closer to 3x more miniatures per area footprint compared to some of the more recent larger sculpts GW has been doing (Stormcast Eternals, Putrid Blightkings, and some of the Khornate mortal AoS infantry for example, they take up a lot of space on the tabletop on those 32mm bases, and some of them are almost 2x taller than the average LotR human mini).

But I guess we'll see how it goes.

I see people pointing out that HH is the same scale as 40K, but I'm not sure that's relevant- HH leans on a bunch of the same units and vehicles as 40K so it makes sense that it would be the same scale.

TOW, if it's going to be a square-based rank-and-flank game, is going to have minimal overlap with AoS. If it's a totally separate game that doesn't use existing WHFB/AOS kits- which I think is most likely- then there's no reason to assume it'll be the same scale. It's not like GW would keep the WHFB scale so that WHFB players can use their old armies.

I agree with the comments about 15mm: It's a good sweet spot for getting detail on individual models, while being small enough that you can have big centerpieces and an army looks like an army.

Made no sense, but I do prefer to have some tiny greater demons.

This is what my gaming group and I have hoped for from The Old World. A big issue (for me) with Fantasy was that the scale and detail (and price) of the model range grew to be incompatible with the rank and file game system. A smaller scale with non-command/front rank models being much less detailed, and the price per model being much lower, would allow for truly epic rank and file battles.

Plus it would mean us old boys having to buy new collections. That's a plus for GW.

I shouldn't think Mantic or other similar games even come into the equation from a business perspective (I can imagine there is a massive gulf in terms of income between the two) - other than there being that small games developer social circle in Nottingham, many having started their careers in GW, and by extension I assume a bunch of them all knowing each other.

It doesn't. In terms of Revenues GW makes in about 2-3 weeks what Mantic makes in an entire year (and that might be being generous towards Mantic, I only have a rough revenue range for them, not an exact). In terms of game popularity, Kings of War isn't anywhere near as popular as Warhammer Fantasy Battle was, and is even further behind AoS in that category. Could it, in another 20 years time, become a titan of the industry? Maybe, but its not very likely.

I've always said TOW is going to be smaller scale. It'll cut down production costs, make it more affordable to build big armies and avoid players just using their old WHFB (or, gasp!, Mantic) minis. Probably won't be 10mm tho, wouldn't want folks using Warmaster minis either. Something like 13 mm probably and call it 1/3 AoS scale like Titanicus is 1/4 40k scale.

On that note, its interesting to me that Warlord recently launched its plastic "Epic Scale" American Civil War miniatures line for use with Black Powder, those minis are nominally 15mm scale but closer to ~12.5-13.5mm. Keep in mind that the Warlord guys and the GW guys all know eachother and they *definitely* talk (a good friend of mine is ex-GW corporate himself and close friends with Ronnie Renton, the Perry twins, and a number of other names that you would recognize, I hear things). Also keep in mind that Black Powder was written by Jervis Johnson who is currently still a GW employee("long-term strategy manager"). Coincidence? Absolutely, but its nice to imagine a scenario where warlord got the scoop on GWs future plans and decided to launch a new miniatures range for its own rank and file games in a similar scale so as to capitalize on whats soon to be a growing market.

I think that would be great, honestly. But I'm sure they're just making things up.

On the other hand, after launching with the shot of the 25mm square base and smashing the nostalgia button real hard, if it's a different scale, there are going to be a lot of angry cries of 'bait and switch'

Part of what has people so excited is being able to use their old stuff, and to see those model lines expanded.


But, again, Spikeybits, so completely baseless clickbait with a higher a chance of of being wrong than a random person on the street who's never heard of warhammer.

 catbarf wrote:
I see people pointing out that HH is the same scale as 40K, but I'm not sure that's relevant- HH leans on a bunch of the same units and vehicles as 40K so it makes sense that it would be the same scale.

It kind of bares mentioning that HH isn't quite the same scale as 40k. They were the same at one point, but the recent waves of 40k plastics since late 7th edition have generally been slightly larger than the older minis that the Horus Heresy range was sculpted in line with. Compare the HH marines to Deathwatch marines or Chaos Space Marines and the HH marines are noticeably smaller. On top of that forgeworld non-astartes human sculpts (Solar Auxilia, but also Elysians and DKoK) have generally been more petit than GWs own imperial guard and guard-equivalent minis, that size difference is even more pronounced if you put the DKOK guys up next to some of the more recent sculpts (Inquisitor Greyfax especially, but also the new Sisters of Battle, and IIRC some of the Genestealer Cultists are pretty beefy too.

Also worth mentioning is that 28mm HH feels like a largely "dead" game at this point thats coasting by on minimal support. Adeptus Titanicus, on the other hand, is branded as a Horus Heresy game and is getting more regular and more consistent support. I wonder if there isn't possibly room for both a larger 28mm-ish game and a smaller epic/warmaster scale game equivalents for AoS in the same way. Alternatively, its possible that the 28mm HH game may eventually be phased out and replaced by the return of Epic as a Horus Heresy title via AT, but for now that seems a bit less likely.

Voss wrote:
Part of what has people so excited is being able to use their old stuff, and to see those model lines expanded.

those people will be disappointed anyway

I know that there are some that claim that GW is aware that 3D printing will take over miniature making in 2-3 years and therefore are just planning to revive the Old World to create a Franchise, make some expensive hardcovers (sell STL Files) and call it a day with the community being happy because they can play Fantasy Battles again, use their old stuff and print shiny new renders created by GW

if GW would have something like this in mind, creating just rules to let people play with their old models, they would have already done so (because a re-print of an old rulebook, together with combined army books just to get things started can be done within a year)

GW don't spend money to make the old crowed happy, the spend money to earn more money and the get new people in buying their all their stuff

the hint with the square base was just that, a hint to the old world easily done by the one thing that is still unique (as any model or logo could have been for AoS as well)

Part of what has people so excited is being able to use their old stuff, and to see those model lines expanded.

I think that was an unrealistic and unreasonable dream to begin with and myself and others have spent a lot of time trying to talk people out of starting TOW armies using WHFB minis from ebay and second-hand finds in the interrim while we wait for more information. Those people are probably going to get screwed and tbh I don't think I'll be too bothered about it when they are.

The game is already established as being set in a different time period from WHFB was, on that basis alone some % of WHFB minis are going to be disqualified (even if its just not being able to use your Karl Franz and Balthasar Gelt minis), GW could push that pretty far and basically disqualify entire factions worth of minis from being fieldable (and may do that anyway simply on the basis of the geography of the setting, but we shall see about that). On top of that though it doesn't do GW much good to release a game where a large portion of the potential audience already has pre-existing armies to use with it, whether it be legacy WHFB minis or just repurposing some of their AoS minis, etc. - not much to sell those people if they all say "no thanks, Im good". Likewise keep in mind that one of the biggest challenges for WHFB back in the day was that huge number of alternative minis available for it from other manufacturers. Towards the end of its run it wasn't uncommon locally to see multiple players showing up with an entire army built without a single GW miniature in it. Since WHFB died that problem has exacerbated itself by several orders of magnitude as Mantic has significantly expanded its own miniatures range and a number of other companies have launched numbers of historical and fantasy plastics right in the same size range as the old WHFB miniatures, not to mention the *huge* number of WHFB imitation/inspired 3d printable miniatures ranges that have been launched.

GW finding a way to invalidate some portion of pre-existing collections is almost a given, whether that be through WYSIWYG ("Yeah, heres our new Empire range, during this time period the Empire hasn't adopted blackpowder weaponry yet so all your guns and cannons can't be used, knights are exclusively armed with either flails or cavalry halberds, and state troops are armed with an axe and shield or a pavise and crossbow"), through scale differences, through differences in basing, or through some other method that forces people to have to make some significant financial investment. Oh, and don't get me started on the *names* that these things are going to have, no more state troops - the axemen are called "Hochland Hatchetmen" armed with "Drakwald Hatchet-axes", the crossbowmen are "Wissenland Bolt-chargers" armed with "Truestrike Torquebows" or something, etc.

chaos0xomega wrote:

I shouldn't think Mantic or other similar games even come into the equation from a business perspective (I can imagine there is a massive gulf in terms of income between the two) - other than there being that small games developer social circle in Nottingham, many having started their careers in GW, and by extension I assume a bunch of them all knowing each other.

It doesn't. In terms of Revenues GW makes in about 2-3 weeks what Mantic makes in an entire year (and that might be being generous towards Mantic, I only have a rough revenue range for them, not an exact). In terms of game popularity, Kings of War isn't anywhere near as popular as Warhammer Fantasy Battle was, and is even further behind AoS in that category. Could it, in another 20 years time, become a titan of the industry? Maybe, but its not very likely.

And yet GW made the Old World announcement, while having absolutely nothing to show, specifically to torpedo King of War 3rd edition's release hype.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

I shouldn't think Mantic or other similar games even come into the equation from a business perspective (I can imagine there is a massive gulf in terms of income between the two) - other than there being that small games developer social circle in Nottingham, many having started their careers in GW, and by extension I assume a bunch of them all knowing each other.

It doesn't. In terms of Revenues GW makes in about 2-3 weeks what Mantic makes in an entire year (and that might be being generous towards Mantic, I only have a rough revenue range for them, not an exact). In terms of game popularity, Kings of War isn't anywhere near as popular as Warhammer Fantasy Battle was, and is even further behind AoS in that category. Could it, in another 20 years time, become a titan of the industry? Maybe, but its not very likely.

And yet GW made the Old World announcement, while having absolutely nothing to show, specifically to torpedo King of War 3rd edition's release hype.

Prove it. I've seen a lot of people claiming this on the basis that they announced the same day KoW 3rd released, except thats not true - KoW3 released October 21st, 2019 (and was announced 6+ months previous to that), the Old World announcement was made on November 15th. If GW was trying to kill Mantic hype they had a lot of opportunity to actually do so - and didn't.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Part of what has people so excited is being able to use their old stuff, and to see those model lines expanded.

I think that was an unrealistic and unreasonable dream to begin with and myself and others have spent a lot of time trying to talk people out of starting TOW armies using WHFB minis from ebay and second-hand finds in the interrim while we wait for more information. Those people are probably going to get screwed and tbh I don't think I'll be too bothered about it when they are.

I'm still pissed that my WE and Bret armies were left in the lurch, but I don't expect GW to create a game that just lets people use their old stuff.

Some folk reckon The Old World will just use the old WHFB models, but I'm not convinced of that because GW makes most of their money from new releases, so they're probably not going to make as much from a game that recycles old models compared to bringing out new stuff. But they need to balance that with the overall scope of the game, a problem with WHFB is that it grew so large that it took up a huge amount of store shelf space and different SKUs to maintain it all.

Some folk reckon The Old World will just use the old WHFB models

We have a term for those people: Wrong.

Besides that, GW disposed of many (but not all) of the WHFB molds (mostly older metal/finecast molds, but also some of the older plastic molds too) after putting them up as last chance to buy in order to free up space for other activity in the interrim while they were constructing the annex production/warehousing space. Could they bring back some of the range beyond whats currently available via AOS? Yes, could they bring it all back? Most likely no.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But they need to balance that with the overall scope of the game, a problem with WHFB is that it grew so large that it took up a huge amount of store shelf space and different SKUs to maintain it all.

hence why people come up with the smaller scale as this would solve a lot of those problems

I don’t think I’d mind smaller scale as much as I once would’ve, but I don’t see it happening.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Prove it. I've seen a lot of people claiming this on the basis that they announced the same day KoW 3rd released, except thats not true - KoW3 released October 21st, 2019 (and was announced 6+ months previous to that), the Old World announcement was made on November 15th. If GW was trying to kill Mantic hype they had a lot of opportunity to actually do so - and didn't.

Yea I don't have a recording of Rountree twirling his moustache while giving out orders...

I know it wasn't same day but it was just as people were starting to get their books (late as usual for Mantic) and there was some real chatter about the game. Nothing else happened in that time to prompt GW to break all their conventions and make an annoucement out of nowhere for something 3 years in advance when they had nothing but a working title to show. Nothing but a playerbase at the hegiht of excitement for regiment fantasy battles. The fact that it did come 3 weeks late helps, if anything, my assertion, as it shows that GW had absolutely no plans for such a game until they saw the sudden buzz around KoW and then they scrambled to greenlight something, anything, overnight (in corporate terms) to steal that thunder. The sad part is that it worked wonderfully well. I saw soooo many exclaim that day "Oh bugger getting into KoW then, I'm just gonna wait for GW to take me back"

Does GW really "worry" about people re-using old models? Space Marines as an army have few new concepts within them and yet sell like crazy. Even Primaris are basically just marines on larger bases and tanks that over instead of crawl

In general new sculpts will sell and those with "classic" collections who don't choose to buy new things are going to do the same thing that free players do in mmo games - provide games for customers who are buying into the game.


The only time its an issue is if no one is buying the new stuff and with GW's current sales and design record I can't see them being afraid of that.


The only thing they have to ensure is that the new Old World armies are distinct enough from the AoS armies. AT the same time GW 100% knows if the two games share a scale then people will cross over. For GW it doesn't matter what game you play with them or if you game with them at all; only that sales are generated.




Warmaster scale provides something new, but at the same time that scale of games isn't as popular; it isn't as well supported and its far more of a gamble for GW. So far they have given no hint that its even on the cards and any hints of an Epic scale game of its nature are squashed instantly. Basically GW is showing no interest in following that pathway at this stage.


I fully expect the old world game to be 28-35mm scale comparable to AoS. My only real concern is that GW gets most AoS armies to a good state BEFORE Old World launches. The last thing I'd want is for skaven to still have generation 1 plastics and for Fyreslayers to still be a handful of kits etc... all when Old World throws out brand new top end armies into the mix. That's my only worry, that AoS gets left behind and as a result has its growth and marketing stunted.

Thing is GW is out of the gate big this year for AoS already. Give a few more armies the Lumineth/Necron treatment and the game will be up to speed within those 3 years that old world might appear at the end of

Yes, GW continually goes out of its way to invalidate old model ranges. See Titanicus.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Yes, GW continually goes out of its way to invalidate old model ranges. See Titanicus.

Utter nonsense.

It was nigh on 20 years since Titan Legions when AT was tarted up. The number of people that still had a collection, let alone still in the hobby and waiting for it to come back would be absolutely minuscule.

And remember, the original Adeptus Titanicus didn’t have a set scale. The Epic infantry did, of around 6mm. But the original game did not.

Indeed, the Titans are now much better scaled with old Epic. But hey, we can prove anything with facts.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Yes, GW continually goes out of its way to invalidate old model ranges. See Titanicus.

There's what 10-15 years since AT was last on the market and GW's plastics have come a huge way since then. I doubt they had any concerns for the old market using old sculpts; they were simply porting the designs with a faithful air to the current scales as shown in the 40K game through the FW models for the Warlord and such.



Heck I had a warlord and reaver (lead) and 2 Imperators and I sold them on recently. They were not top condition, but they were still good models. That said the sculpts have moved on leaps and bounds and I favour the new designs greatly over the original ones. Even if GW never makes and sells an Imperator again the new warlord and other models are outstanding in quality and detail that the others never ever head.

I think GW is well aware it's audience will eventually replace their old models on their own, they don't need to be 'forced' into it per say. How many Necromunda and Blood Bowl tables do you see with people using the old kits, even those people who were playing the games back in the 90's? How many 'Firstborn' armies do you see these days that aren't for 30k? How many people who complained (and still complain) about Primaris never the less buy literally every new release and now field nothing but Primaris sans some vehicles?

I'm as cynical about GW as anyone, but I think if they believed the "Grogs won't buy new versions of old models" they'd not update things like Necron Warriors, Chaos Marines, etc, arguably the entire Primaris line (since people could just proxy).

I think GW knows that the vast majority of people will just replace their old models regardless, just because people generally buy the new hotness that GW produces no matter what - they might not buy six-ten boxes of Empire State Troops right away, but GW expect them to phase out their old stuff over time. There's also a lot of new blood that has entered the hobby since WHFB's time who've proven themselves to be as brand loyal as the people who came before with no WHFB models to their name that aren't being utilised in AoS.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Some folk reckon The Old World will just use the old WHFB models

We have a term for those people: Wrong.

Besides that, GW disposed of many (but not all) of the WHFB molds (mostly older metal/finecast molds, but also some of the older plastic molds too) after putting them up as last chance to buy in order to free up space for other activity in the interrim while they were constructing the annex production/warehousing space. Could they bring back some of the range beyond whats currently available via AOS? Yes, could they bring it all back? Most likely no.

I doubt that. Plastics molds are extremely expensive. I could see them throwing them in a storage locker somewhere but not disposing completely.

I believe GW will stay with the 28mm size models. Warmaster didn't sell enough to stay alive. I am hoping that GW will use their superior model production techniques to make better models then the old sculpts. This is where they will make their profit. They are also planning to redevelop the kislev range. They will make a ton of money if they develop a Cathay and Nippon line.

Aash wrote:
Just saw this:
https://spikeybits.com/2021/02/rumors-warhammer-old-world-not-28mm-scale.html

Does anyone know if this rumour has popped up elsewhere? Any chance it might be true, and if so what are people's thoughts?

8mm would be weird scale for them. 6mm like epic/at/ai or　12mm like warmaster would make sense.

But would give actual big battle feel. 28mm means games are always just bunch of guys　in skirmish


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Spikybits is basically an advertising website that uses clickbait titles for articles that are often little more than guesswork based off forums.


GW has given no indication that Old World will be a different scale game. Considering that they want it to "be what Horus Heresy is to 40K" and that they specifically advertised it with an old regular square base and that their smaller scale games tend to sell worse (Epic has been born and died several times and warmaster was never really pushed off the ground).


Suffice to say that there is no evidence save for Warmaster fans hoping. Heck GW hasn't even brought epic back for 40K and every time it comes up the Adepticus Titanicus Team say "NO"

Ah yes. Exceeding gw's own expectations 400% is　bad selling. Warlord titan being best selling kit of year　bad selling. Oh yes.

This whole thing come across as utter nonsense based on the absurd idea of "They want to want to make everything unique now!" that keeps getting repeated despite there being nothing to actually indicate that's the case. I've seen it claimed that it's the result of the chapterhouse lawsuit, even though from what I've read the results of that said the opposite as design styles and themes can't be copyrighted, so it would make no difference how unique the faction identity is. From the IP control/copyright side of things they can't claim the idea of steampunk pirate Dwarves any more than they "can’t claim the aesthetics of the Bretonnians or Empire.", the later obviously has historical miniature counterparts but its not as if that's different now than it was back then. They've designed new units for Kislev yet kept them overall the same style as before, so the idea that they now want to make everything unique (but have for some reason decided not to here) doesn't hold up.

Age of Sigmar was a shift in fantasy style, scale and scope that gave them a chance to do things differently without needing to be based on what there was before, so that's what they've done. Yet this article claims that AoS was done because wanted to "control the IP of all of it."? If that was the case than they wouldn't still have factions that aren't that drastically different from their previous depiction.

The idea of getting people interested in the lore/setting of WHFB again via the video games and such and then wanting to capitalize on that, teasing a return to that beloved setting including the iconic square bases, showing entirely new units and concept art that expand upon small factions, mentioning it'll be a similar project as the Horus Heresy and going on about how it's a big thing and they know people are excited for it, only to later go "Oh, we forgot to tell you, this is a Warmaster reboot, not WHFB! Woops!" would just be a slap in the face because they know what are expecting of this. It doesn't make any sense at all.

There's also that, while Total War Warhammer has obviously generated a lot of new fans of the setting, it's not like that's the only thing that's done so and this is entirely aimed at those players. Other games like Verminide have helped too. It's a return to a setting that know people have interest in still and are longing for, not just a tabletop game for fans of the Total War series.

We should keep in mind that one of the reasons AoS exists were the limitations of the Warhammer World. While lots of AoS models aren't compatible with TOW, EVERY model from WHFB and TOW could find it's place in the Mortal Realms. It's far less a risk to sell TOW kits when they include War scrolls to use them in AoS. That wouldn't work with a different scale.

Earlier a comment was a smaller scale makes sense so they can bring in the huge TWW gamers in, as its such a big pool and they’ll prefer smaller.
Let’s just think about that.
Over half of those gamers, wouldn’t even touch some nerdy tabletop game.
Of the remaining that might be interested (personally I’d say at most 20%, but these are all irrelevant numbers really). It’d all be at different styles of interest, skirmish, big battle, all sorts. Rather than wanting to play the video game they already have, but on a table.
Some might just do s if I instead for something different.
Or kill team/Warcry/Underworlds etc as it’s small.

I really can’t see at all the decision on size being based on anything to do with TW.
(If they hadn’t talked about the design teams working together on concepts and images, would anyone even be linking them as important at all?).


Personally, it's 28.
While yes they will want you to ultimately buy all the new models.
If they can bring all the old gamers back in who either left, moved to 40k/AoS but kept their stuff, and all that - with the “oh use your stuff you have” it’s still great, as that’s another customer invested in a game system. Then you drop all the must have buys, it’s all the new things. Job done.

It’s basically what they do with every Codex, army book and tome.
Already built your full 2000 point army. Well fine, but here’s this new book with new stuff.. better grab a few of these cool new bits, even though you already had enough and were done.
Every old gamer, is still buying a new rukebook, army book, and even a few characters or something at least, but may not invest in a whole new army if Old is invalidated (at first, but then they’ll cave and buy a whole new cool army. We all know how it works ).
But we shall see..

Maybe it's half information that has been taken out of context. It could still be 28mm, but as we know, Forgeworld doesn't really do 28mm 'Heroic'.

Obviously GW would create new sculpts for a new old world release, but we shouldn't ignore the cost/development saving of re-using some of the old ones. Not having to employ design teams and get new plastic sprues produced would be a big saving. And I know Oldhammer is a thing (not to mention KoW fans) but as a percentage how many people really have old WHFB armies sat in their closet waiting for a re-launch (especially those that didn't burn them?! )

Reproduction is super common in the plastic kit world, with some kits lasting for 20 years or more, re-released constantly with perhaps a minor upgrade or new decals/livery set, or sometimes even with the same kit sold from one company to another and then re-branded.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

The idea of getting people interested in the lore/setting of WHFB again via the video games and such and then wanting to capitalize on that, teasing a return to that beloved setting including the iconic square bases, showing entirely new units and concept art that expand upon small factions, mentioning it'll be a similar project as the Horus Heresy and going on about how it's a big thing and they know people are excited for it, only to later go "Oh, we forgot to tell you, this is a Warmaster reboot, not WHFB! Woops!" would just be a slap in the face because they know what are expecting of this. It doesn't make any sense at all.

There's also that, while Total War Warhammer has obviously generated a lot of new fans of the setting, it's not like that's the only thing that's done so and this is entirely aimed at those players. Other games like Verminide have helped too. It's a return to a setting that know people have interest in still and are longing for, not just a tabletop game for fans of the Total War series.

You have to think that discussion around the continued success of the Total War series - this must be making a lot for GW in royalties - would be central around any discussion of an Old World game. There are all sorts of marketing crossovers that would be possible, it's a massive wasted opportunity for them not to be doing this (and was actually one of the reasons I was surprised GW destroyed the old world, rather than trying to just introduce AoS as a new/separate game).

Why would you sell a full regiment in 15mm for the price of 1 hero mini in 28-32mm?

Smaller scales are different price brackets and to be honest with you neither plastics or resins are the best material for it.

Now if they had metal 15mms at normal prices I would be all over that!

 Arbitrator wrote:

I'm as cynical about GW as anyone, but I think if they believed the "Grogs won't buy new versions of old models" they'd not update things like Necron Warriors, Chaos Marines, etc, arguably the entire Primaris line (since people could just proxy).

I think GW knows that the vast majority of people will just replace their old models regardless, just because people generally buy the new hotness that GW produces no matter what - they might not buy six-ten boxes of Empire State Troops right away, but GW expect them to phase out their old stuff over time. There's also a lot of new blood that has entered the hobby since WHFB's time who've proven themselves to be as brand loyal as the people who came before with no WHFB models to their name that aren't being utilised in AoS.

WHFB proved once that they will do anything to avoid buying new models, we know cause WHFB sold like carp and people went to 3rd party companies as much as they could (I don't blame them, GW prices are whack, but from GW's perspective, it does mean grogs don't buy new models). A person buying into a new army (which is what'd happen with ToS being brand-new game with zero overlap with WHFB models) spends much more than a veteran replacing one unit of 20yo handgunners with a new unit. They either go for wealth of options in-army to make you buy as much as possible (Marines, Stormcast) or as in AoS, make as many smaller armies as possible to make you buy into more than one. Why would this follow any other pattern?

 Pacific wrote:

You have to think that discussion around the continued success of the Total War series - this must be making a lot for GW in royalties - would be central around any discussion of an Old World game. There are all sorts of marketing crossovers that would be possible, it's a massive wasted opportunity for them not to be doing this (and was actually one of the reasons I was surprised GW destroyed the old world, rather than trying to just introduce AoS as a new/separate game).

Any sensible person would be thinking that, yes, but GW has shown time and again that they're not aware of the concept of synergizing their many video game licenses with their miniature games at all.

While it's incredibly unlikely, and the "source" of SpikeyBits is about as reliable as reading tea leaves, I actually would buy into a 10mm or smaller size game. That's an itch I currently don't have a good scratcher for.

I want this new range to be a smaller scale, because a Warmaster army is a spectacle you can't get from 28mm. It probably won't be, though. All GW's minis are as much for collectors and painters as they are for gamers, and 15mm or smaller doesn't offer much to those audiences.

I don’t see it being anything but their usual 28ish mm scale.

For a start, if people can dust off old armies? Instant player base. That is the grail of any war game.

You can have the best rules. You can have gorgeous models at a genuinely affordable price. But you still need to find and retain an audience.

The sooner you can get games being visibly played, the sooner you can grow your initial player base into something financially sustaining your efforts.

Because those initial players will attract the attention of newcomers - and it’s the newcomers starting at the beginning and dropping the big bucks.

You want sales from your existing players? Tactical Kit Updates.

Let’s consider The Empire. As of right now, what remains is pretty solid. The basic infantry are fine. The Pistoliers, Steam Tank and Demi-Gryph cavalry are all fine. Empire Knights? They needed an overhaul for a loooong time. Do that? Sales will ensue.

Indeed, whipping out the already existing moulds gives you a leg up on other broadly similar war games, as you are absolutely not starting from scratch.

With The Old World at 28ish mm, they can do a Ravening Hordes and have more than 12 armies ready to go, fully playable, fully collectible on day one. Straight out the gate.

The more options people have, the longer it takes them to get bored, and the more cost effective it can be to change things up. The previous WHFB had enough variety in terms of models and units to do that. So why throw it away?

Example. I’ve still got my Ogres from 8th Ed. Stick with that scale, and at least no initial invalidation of models that pre-date? I can try the game out for the cost of the rule book, templates (if applicable), and a hypothetical Ravening Hordes (if that’s not punted out for free as tasty bait). If the old itch is scratched, further sales will ensue. Whilst I fully embrace my role as one of life’s little oddballs, I am not alone in that.

Hefty doubt on TOW being anything but the same scale GW does for its ranges now. The concept art they've shown is pretty clearly intended for 28mm scale and if we're arguing that the new AT is "small scale" then may I remind people it's small scale of minis that are like a foot tall. An AT warlord comes close to the size of a regular 40k knight.

Also, Spikeybitz is clickbait paradise.

 Valander wrote:
While it's incredibly unlikely, and the "source" of SpikeyBits is about as reliable as reading tea leaves, I actually would buy into a 10mm or smaller size game. That's an itch I currently don't have a good scratcher for.

People be doing Kings of War in 10mm, there's also Warmaster... "Remastered" I think. Forest Dragon patreon is doing a wonderful job resculpting the armies.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Valander wrote:
While it's incredibly unlikely, and the "source" of SpikeyBits is about as reliable as reading tea leaves, I actually would buy into a 10mm or smaller size game. That's an itch I currently don't have a good scratcher for.

People be doing Kings of War in 10mm, there's also Warmaster... "Remastered" I think. Forest Dragon patreon is doing a wonderful job resculpting the armies.

The current "hard part" (which is probably not all that hard, honestly) is finding models in that scale for fantasy. Or, at least, that involves a little Googling and definitely online purchases. I know of a few ranges, but honestly not too impressed with them, so my "hope" would be a good model range, too. But, unlikely, so I'll just get to work on some of the mountain of backlog of other crap I have anyway.

Edit: Of course, I do have a 3d printer, so I could probably find cool stuff to scale down...

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Valander wrote:
While it's incredibly unlikely, and the "source" of SpikeyBits is about as reliable as reading tea leaves, I actually would buy into a 10mm or smaller size game. That's an itch I currently don't have a good scratcher for.

People be doing Kings of War in 10mm, there's also Warmaster... "Remastered" I think. Forest Dragon patreon is doing a wonderful job resculpting the armies.

One of the 'features' of KoW (I hate it personally) is the scale doesn't matter. You can play it at 64mm, 10mm or with cardboard chits on a graph paper if you want. It makes no difference (other than the look).

Aash wrote:
Just saw this:
https://spikeybits.com/2021/02/rumors-warhammer-old-world-not-28mm-scale.html

Does anyone know if this rumour has popped up elsewhere? Any chance it might be true, and if so what are people's thoughts?

Clickbait. And it's worked well, apparently.

Kings of War is model agnostic which is great, and the rules support that but the scale still matters. People who do smaller scale typically house rule it to either do half measurements or do cm instead of inches.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Prove it. I've seen a lot of people claiming this on the basis that they announced the same day KoW 3rd released, except thats not true - KoW3 released October 21st, 2019 (and was announced 6+ months previous to that), the Old World announcement was made on November 15th. If GW was trying to kill Mantic hype they had a lot of opportunity to actually do so - and didn't.

Yea I don't have a recording of Rountree twirling his moustache while giving out orders...

I know it wasn't same day but it was just as people were starting to get their books (late as usual for Mantic) and there was some real chatter about the game. Nothing else happened in that time to prompt GW to break all their conventions and make an annoucement out of nowhere for something 3 years in advance when they had nothing but a working title to show. Nothing but a playerbase at the hegiht of excitement for regiment fantasy battles. The fact that it did come 3 weeks late helps, if anything, my assertion, as it shows that GW had absolutely no plans for such a game until they saw the sudden buzz around KoW and then they scrambled to greenlight something, anything, overnight (in corporate terms) to steal that thunder. The sad part is that it worked wonderfully well. I saw soooo many exclaim that day "Oh bugger getting into KoW then, I'm just gonna wait for GW to take me back"

Heres the thing though - KoW 3rd was very publicly announced in April 2019. GW had 7 months to come up with more than just a logo (and I assume they did come up with a lot more than just a logo, even if they claimed otherwise). Its not like all of a sudden KoW 3 released and Rountree saw it and said "ANOTHER COMPANY IS MAKING MINIATURE GAMES!?? THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE, REBOOT WHFB TOMORROW!". They could have simply killed KoW3 dead on arrival by announcing it on the actual release day instead of waiting almost a month for people to have an opportunity to pick it up.

The more reasonable interpretation is that they had finished doing their bi-monthly battle sister bulletin charting the development of the sisters of battle army box about 2-3 weeks prior, had done a series of articles fully revealing the contents of the box set and results of the development work, etc. over the prior 4 days, and were launching preorders for said box the next day. Its reasonable to conclude that they wanted to continue to spotlight long-term internal development of a product in the same way in order to maintain existing/capture new attention and build hype for future releases. There are really only a handful of possible things they could do that would capture popular interest the way the sisters did, things like a squat army for 40k, a battlefleet gothic reboot, etc. Bringing back Warhammer Fantasy? Probably the biggest thing on that list and a surefire way to grab headlines. Its a no-brainer. Did KoW possibly influence the decision on some level? Maybe - but GW is a big corporation and big corporations don't just do this kind of gak overnight on a whim. Its more reasonable to conclude that bringing back WHFB in some capacity was always part of the plan and that plan was already in motion regardless of KoW 3rd edition. After all - Jervis Johnson (remember, hes a "long term strategy manager") was one of the leaders and major influencers behind the creation of Age of Sigmar, as well as being a huge fan of WHFB itself. Killing off WHFB to launch a new alternative title so that you can then reinvent and rerelease WHFB over an extended timeline and away from public scrutiny while building a new community to support it certainly seems like a long term strategy to me, one which was probably planned out as early as when Age of Sigmars develop was first launched.

Does GW really "worry" about people re-using old models? Space Marines as an army have few new concepts within them and yet sell like crazy. Even Primaris are basically just marines on larger bases and tanks that over instead of crawl

Space Marines are an "evergreen" product for GW, they make up like 30% of GWs total revenue on their own or something like that. Thats not true of any other faction/model range within GWs catalog, so judging GWs actions on the basis of space marines isn't really helpful.

The only time its an issue is if no one is buying the new stuff and with GW's current sales and design record I can't see them being afraid of that.

That was precisely the issue with old WHFB though, so I don't really see that much of anything has changed other than the fact that GWs audience has potentially grown and theres more new blood to sell to - but overwhelmingly that audience has grown for 40k and Age of Sigmar, and doesn't necessarily translate to The Old World.

Warmaster scale provides something new, but at the same time that scale of games isn't as popular; it isn't as well supported and its far more of a gamble for GW.

A claim that isn't necessarily well supported or true. Defining "warmaster scale" less as "10mm" and more as somewhere between "6mm to 15mm", or even "10mm to 15mm", theres a huge array of manufacturers and options out there. Battlefront is a privately held company, but there have been rumors for years now that their annual revenues make them the second largest player in the industry behind GW (no numbers to support that claim and I believe that has tapered off somewhat since the mid-2010s, that being said the gulf between GW and some of the bigger firms in the industry that I have seen numbers for is pretty big, so even if this claim is true Battlefront might still only be like 1/6th the size of GW) - their principal product ranges are obviously all 15mm. Beyond them theres a handful of bigger firms doing games in that scale range, such as Catalyst (Battletech, 6mm) and now Warlord ("Epic Battles"), and if I was to guess more businesses out there that have 6mm-15mm miniatures offerings than there are those with 28mm offerings based on the number of different manufacturers I have in my own collections. 15mm and smaller remains massively popular among the historical gaming crowd, possibly moreso than 28mm is, where its generally seen as the preferred scales from WW2 forwards, as well as for mass battle games of any period). The main reason why there isn't much of a "big player" in that arena is because theres no "moat" for historicals - i.e. no way to protect your IP or stave off competitors or really establish yourself in a niche which will allow you to grow revenues - which makes the rumors about Battlefront all the more impressive if they are true.

Also, don't mistake correlation for causation - yes, most of the bigger players in the industry are slinging 28mm miniatures currently, but that isn't necessarily because 28mm is an inherently more sellable scale. A large segment of the industry is defined by GW's "collaborators" (i.e. those companies spun off by GW veterans who have 28mm miniatures in their pedigrees and have stuck with what they know) and "competitors" (i.e. those companies who are trying to establish themselves as major players in the industry and are seeking to imitate GWs formula in order to do so, and thus jump into 28mm because thats what the biggest player in the industry is doing). GW themselves bucked industry trends by getting big with 28mm minis at a time when the norm was actually more 15mm scale (and to a lesser extent 6mm, to say nothing of naval wargaming scale trends), which themselves had usurped the more popular 25mm minis being used in ages longer past.

Heck, the one game that was able to challenge Warhammer 40ks sales in the past decade (X-Wing), is more or less 6mm scale. Yes, its a disingenuous comparison because vehicles vs infantry, etc. but I think the main takeaway is that the right scale for your game varies with your subject matter. In this case, an infantry based game it would seem the obvious answer is 28mm given that thats what most games that focus on infantry do - but thats a trap. Your "baseline" in a rank and file game is not one infantryman, its a block of infantry, and that requires a different scale in order to make it usable. In the past, during the early days of rank and file wargaming, the most popular games out there were Napoleonics played at 25mm with 1:20 or 1:60 ratio units, which were then usurped by 15mm miniatures first popularized by Miniature Figurines Ltd (aka Minifigs) which lead to a shift in the tabletop industry towards 15mm figures that lasted well into the late 90s when GW started getting big. GWs own market dominance caused the shift away from 15mm back towards 25/28mm minis... but then WHFB died, principally for reasons that could have potentially been avoided by using smaller minis. Today rank and file games are nowhere near as popular as they were prior to the rise of GW (when Napoleonic era wargaming was the most popular period to play), and I would guess theres a strong correlation there to the scale of the miniatures being used and also to WHFBs own failure to survive.

In any case, theres not much good data out there, but one of the more interesting pieces on the topic I've found is this: http://www.wargames-romania.ro/wordpress/articles/stateofwar/what-scale-to-choose-for-wargaming/

Summarized:

I gathered up close to 530 answers to this question: what scale did you choose for wargaming? And while the answers provided statistical data, what is most interesting is the actual reason for which people chose a certain size/scale.

Before i start to dive into the subject, keep in mind that:

1. I have not visited game specific forums for this endeavor. Not much point going on a 40k forum to ask: hey guys, what scale do you play? when you know the answer is 28mm. Not much point visiting a Flames of War Forum also, when the answer is clearly 15mm.
2. Allot of the people that answered have indicated multiple scales, so the results add up to more then 530 some. It simply does not matter if they prefer one scale to the other once they have invested in multiple scales. And some respondents actually could not choose a favorite scale out of those that they owned.
3. Take the data with a grain of salt. The statistical spread is still small, even at 530 respondents. A good thousand more would be required for a somewhat good accuracy and they would have to come from multiple countries.

A good 30.33% of people have answered that they own and play with 6mm miniatures.

15.54% of gamers like the 10mm size.

A whooping 53% of gamers own and actively play with 15mm miniatures.

Just 19% of gamers are actively involved in what is best known as a modelling scale (1/72).

52.05% of wargamers also invest in “God’s scale”. [25/28mm miniatures]

That's my only worry, that AoS gets left behind and as a result has its growth and marketing stunted.

Doubtful. The Old World has three big things stacked against it as it currently stands (assuming no changes to scale, etc.)

1. The remnants of a largely toxic fanbase and community that are antagonistic and hostile towards the now significantly larger AoS fandom, as well as generally trending hard towards gatekeeping and bigotry which will alienate many in the increasingly diverse and welcoming AoS and 40k playerbase.
2. A not insignificant number of people who insist that they will only use their existing collections or won't pay GWs prices and will source their miniatures from Mantic or other 3rd party manufacturers, etc. If those commitments that I have seen popping up on facebook and reddit are held, then The Old Worlds potential will probably be stunted by the very same people who seem to want the game most (ah, irony!), who for the most part are largely the same audience that caused WHFB to fail in the first place.
3. GWs own limitations of support for the range. If the "Horus Heresy" comparison is as apt as many expect it to be, then the game will never outgrow AoS proper, simply because the minis range will be largely expensive forgeworld resins that price out a large portion of the potential playerbase. Even if it does get plastic support, its reasonable to expect the game to be relegated to "specialist games" status - it would be hard for WHFB to overtake AoS when its only seeing a handful of releases every 3 months.

I doubt that. Plastics molds are extremely expensive. I could see them throwing them in a storage locker somewhere but not disposing completely.

Its more expensive to hold inventory of something that has no value to you, especially when space is at a premium (as is currently the case at GWs production and storage facilities), and especially when you know that you are going to be replacing them with a new set of molds for a new kit that supercedes the old ones. Even moreso when you have to maintain those molds - you don't just stick them on a shelf and walk away, at a minimum you need to regularly clean them and "condition" them, often you're keeping them in environmentally controlled storage to minimize the potential for rest/deterioration/corrosion - that costs money. Defacing and disposing of steel production molds is pretty common in the plastics industry when it comes to obsolete product lines (often they get used as infill for land reclamation projects), or just molds that have been around the block and have worn out from being used so many times. Increasingly they are often recycled - not sure on the exact process I've heard some say they are melted down and reforged into a new slab/slug or similar. Often old molds simply get re-used for a new one which to some extent is where scale-creep comes from - you're overcutting an existing mold to produce a new one. I.E. If you have a mold for a bretonnian knight (for example) and decide that you need to use that mold for something else, you recut it to produce whatever that is, but in order to do so the new item needs to occupy a bigger cavity than the old one because you need to remove the existing material from the mold in order to do so, thus making your new sculpts a bit larger,1-2 mm at a time.

I believe GW will stay with the 28mm size models. Warmaster didn't sell enough to stay alive.

None of the Specialist Games did, and yet Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Adeptus Titanicus, etc. are all back. Warmaster was actually more successful than most of the specialist games, more than most people realize.

For a start, if people can dust off old armies? Instant player base. That is the grail of any war game.

If you're a game designer, yes. If you're a miniatures designer? No. GW primarily sells *miniatures*, the money it makes by selling rulebooks is a drop in the bucket compared to the money it makes by slinging plastic. It doesn't care about having an instant player base, what it wants is a line of customers for new plastic miniatures stretching as far as the eye can see on release day. Like, if this was an Osprey blue book wargame, yes - by all means an instant player base is the grail, but to GW or an outfit like GW that instant player base is overrated and not entirely desired.

The concept art they've shown is pretty clearly intended for 28mm scale

Its actually intended for video game art/model assets, so uhh....

 Valander wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Valander wrote:
While it's incredibly unlikely, and the "source" of SpikeyBits is about as reliable as reading tea leaves, I actually would buy into a 10mm or smaller size game. That's an itch I currently don't have a good scratcher for.

People be doing Kings of War in 10mm, there's also Warmaster... "Remastered" I think. Forest Dragon patreon is doing a wonderful job resculpting the armies.

The current "hard part" (which is probably not all that hard, honestly) is finding models in that scale for fantasy. Or, at least, that involves a little Googling and definitely online purchases. I know of a few ranges, but honestly not too impressed with them, so my "hope" would be a good model range, too. But, unlikely, so I'll just get to work on some of the mountain of backlog of other crap I have anyway.

Edit: Of course, I do have a 3d printer, so I could probably find cool stuff to scale down...

Like I said, Forest Dragon patreon

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Valander wrote:
While it's incredibly unlikely, and the "source" of SpikeyBits is about as reliable as reading tea leaves, I actually would buy into a 10mm or smaller size game. That's an itch I currently don't have a good scratcher for.

People be doing Kings of War in 10mm, there's also Warmaster... "Remastered" I think. Forest Dragon patreon is doing a wonderful job resculpting the armies.

Yes, but they also are annoying to deal with

Those Forest dragon minis are casted in what?

chaos0xomega wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

The concept art they've shown is pretty clearly intended for 28mm scale

Its actually intended for video game art/model assets, so uhh....

No, it wasn't. That's not what was said about the TW:W collaboration.

From the TW:W3 FAQ:

Is all this new Kislev and Cathay content for Total War: WARHAMMER III legit?

Yes! Games Workshop has expanded and created these factions, and partnered with us

From The Warhammer Community article:

the Games Workshop creative studio is hard at work on Warhammer The Old World, a project that will see the return of the world-that-was to the tabletop, and their designs have fed directly into the development of Total War: Warhammer

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/02/03/watch-kislev-battle-a-bloodthirster-in-the-first-trailer-for-total-war-warhammer-iii/
th
Concepts made for the Old World project were then used in TW:W3, not the other way around with CA asking GW to make them for them in the first place. GW did the concepts for TOW, not as something intended for TW:W3.

There is nothing to suggest The Old World is going to be a Warmaster reboot but they've just neglected to mention that for well over a year.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Those Forest dragon minis are casted in what?

Zeroes and ones

chaos0xomega wrote:

The only time its an issue is if no one is buying the new stuff and with GW's current sales and design record I can't see them being afraid of that.

That was precisely the issue with old WHFB though, so I don't really see that much of anything has changed other than the fact that GWs audience has potentially grown and theres more new blood to sell to - but overwhelmingly that audience has grown for 40k and Age of Sigmar, and doesn't necessarily translate to The Old World.

Except that the End Times proved this to be false when the new stuff flew off the shells in literal minutes. The problem wasn't that WHFB players weren't willing to buy anything, it's that GW weren't really producing anything TO buy. The two years prior to the End Times saw Dwarfs and Wood Elves receive new models and that's it. GW seemed to learn their lesson with the End Times. albeit too little, too late for WHFB, which is why new model releases aren't necessarily tied to codex/battletomes anymore.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Those Forest dragon minis are casted in what?

It's a 3D printer patreon so you get files that you either pay to have a firm print for you or you print at home on a 3D printer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arbitrator wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

The only time its an issue is if no one is buying the new stuff and with GW's current sales and design record I can't see them being afraid of that.

That was precisely the issue with old WHFB though, so I don't really see that much of anything has changed other than the fact that GWs audience has potentially grown and theres more new blood to sell to - but overwhelmingly that audience has grown for 40k and Age of Sigmar, and doesn't necessarily translate to The Old World.

Except that the End Times proved this to be false. The problem wasn't that WHFB players weren't willing to buy anything, it's that GW weren't really producing anything TO buy. The two years prior to the End Times saw Dwarfs and Wood Elves receive new models and that's it.

Not only that. Old World hadn't had the marketing not hte right marketing in a long while which resulted in a split so that you had 2K army oldguard around and a few newbies who often burned out before they got to 2K points. Thing is rank and file is rather boring at 500points and for many armies it just didn't work well at those point values. You had to hit 1.5K and 2K to get the game going well.

So many burned out before they got there and with fewer and fewer getting into it its a self perpetuating problem.

GW clearly realised this and its why they've gone hard for things like killteam and warcry as their own games not just rules in the back of the big rulebook. Marketing the game as their own thing generates a LOT more focus and interest in them. It helps bridge that gap to 2K points and big armies. Heck the vast majority of AoS is Old World models still and many of the new models are by no means so outlandish that they would have not fitted in the Old World. Heck the Lumineth are just High Elves re-imagined; the Dwarves could easily have abandoned their old dogma of not using technology and had airships; the new Chaos forces for the 4 Gods EASILY would have fit into the setting. Nothing in the new Slaanesh models wouldn't have worked in Old World

The problem wasn't the setting, it was model support, marketing, concepts and a bunch of other things that lined up to add to the problem. Top of the list was GW not doing proper market and consumer research as well (At least at their top end) which resulted in managers setting targets for staff to meet which weren't really what the market wanted.

lord_blackfang wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Those Forest dragon minis are casted in what?

Zeroes and ones

Overread wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Those Forest dragon minis are casted in what?

It's a 3D printer patreon so you get files that you either pay to have a firm print for you or you print at home on a 3D printer.

Oh one of those.
Nothing worth my gold coins.

I, for one, am hoping for single sprues of 1/72 scale models wherein each sprue has a 20-model regiment, and are all element/unit based.

when coke classic came back it wasn't something new...just saying

 NAVARRO wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Those Forest dragon minis are casted in what?

Zeroes and ones

Overread wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Those Forest dragon minis are casted in what?

It's a 3D printer patreon so you get files that you either pay to have a firm print for you or you print at home on a 3D printer.

Oh one of those.
Nothing worth my gold coins.

As the co-owner of a 3D printing service, I can tell you resin 3D prints are just as good as resin cast miniatures.

STLs aren't, if you don't own a 3d printer

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

The concept art they've shown is pretty clearly intended for 28mm scale

Its actually intended for video game art/model assets, so uhh....

No, it wasn't. That's not what was said about the TW:W collaboration.

From the TW:W3 FAQ:

Is all this new Kislev and Cathay content for Total War: WARHAMMER III legit?

Yes! Games Workshop has expanded and created these factions, and partnered with us

From The Warhammer Community article:

the Games Workshop creative studio is hard at work on Warhammer The Old World, a project that will see the return of the world-that-was to the tabletop, and their designs have fed directly into the development of Total War: Warhammer

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/02/03/watch-kislev-battle-a-bloodthirster-in-the-first-trailer-for-total-war-warhammer-iii/
th
Concepts made for the Old World project were then used in TW:W3, not the other way around with CA asking GW to make them for them in the first place. GW did the concepts for TOW, not as something intended for TW:W3.

Never said Creative Assembly had anything to do with the design work.

Note the title of the video featuring Andy Hoare and Mark Bedford: "Designing Kislev and Cathay for Total War: Warhammer III", as posted by the official Warhammer Youtube account. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STAxzrnd0aA


Also, perhaps curiously, it would be weird if Cathay was designed for The Old World given that they don't actually ever mention that being the case at all, anywhere - they have only ever said that *Kislev* will be coming to The Old World, and thats it. In fact, on facebook warcom was asked about Cathay for The Old World, and the only thing they would say is basically "we don't have anything to announce on that but stay tuned for future updates!" - weird that Cathay was designed for TOW (as you purport) but they won't confirm that they are releasing them for TOW despite apparently announcing them in that article, don't you think?

Its been discussed elsewhere that the development of TWW3 has influenced the development of TOW directly and was part of the impetus for the inclusion of Kislev in TOW.

There is nothing to suggest The Old World is going to be a Warmaster reboot but they've just neglected to mention that for well over a year.

Flip side of that is the announcement article for TOW said something to the effect of "So far the only thing we have figured out is the logo, next comes everything else" (paraphrasing a bit). I would assume that implies that *nothing* about the game is a given or really set in stone. The same article also said nothing about Warhammer Fantasy Battle (the game) making a return, only the setting. Every article on the topic thus far has basically not stated anything about WHFB (again, the game) making a return or paralleling anything to said game. There is nothing to suggest The Old World is going to be a Warhammer Fantasy Battle reboot but they'e just neglected to mention that for well over a year. Indeed, all of what we have seen so far has deviated quite a bit from what one might expect if this was a simple WHFB reboot (mainly a change in timeline, and thus far a pretty different roster of factions).

Except that the End Times proved this to be false when the new stuff flew off the shells in literal minutes. The problem wasn't that WHFB players weren't willing to buy anything, it's that GW weren't really producing anything TO buy. The two years prior to the End Times saw Dwarfs and Wood Elves receive new models and that's it. GW seemed to learn their lesson with the End Times. albeit too little, too late for WHFB, which is why new model releases aren't necessarily tied to codex/battletomes anymore.

Do you have any actual evidence for the claims of stuff flying off the shelves? Because the only objective source of sales data (no matter how flawed it might be), icv2, does not have Warhammer Fantasy show up in the top 5 non-collectible miniatures game rankings at all during the entirety of 2014 and 2015 (iirc WHFB dropped off the list for the final time in 2013). Also, pretty sure your timeline on releases is inaccurate, the End Times kicked off in mid 2014, 2 years prior also included sizable updates for Dark Elves and IIRC the High Elves and Empire are on the edge of that timeframe as well. Not bad considering GW was only doing 3 updates per year for both systems at the time and that didn't usually translate to sizable new releases - 40k had to contend with the same limitations and didn't suffer the same downturn.

Not only that. Old World hadn't had the marketing not hte right marketing in a long while which resulted in a split so that you had 2K army oldguard around and a few newbies who often burned out before they got to 2K points. Thing is rank and file is rather boring at 500points and for many armies it just didn't work well at those point values. You had to hit 1.5K and 2K to get the game going well.

So many burned out before they got there and with fewer and fewer getting into it its a self perpetuating problem.

GW clearly realised this and its why they've gone hard for things like killteam and warcry as their own games not just rules in the back of the big rulebook. Marketing the game as their own thing generates a LOT more focus and interest in them. It helps bridge that gap to 2K points and big armies. Heck the vast majority of AoS is Old World models still and many of the new models are by no means so outlandish that they would have not fitted in the Old World. Heck the Lumineth are just High Elves re-imagined; the Dwarves could easily have abandoned their old dogma of not using technology and had airships; the new Chaos forces for the 4 Gods EASILY would have fit into the setting. Nothing in the new Slaanesh models wouldn't have worked in Old World

The problem wasn't the setting, it was model support, marketing, concepts and a bunch of other things that lined up to add to the problem. Top of the list was GW not doing proper market and consumer research as well (At least at their top end) which resulted in managers setting targets for staff to meet which weren't really what the market wanted.

Sounds like a lot of excuses to me. I'm not convinced that WHFB could work as a killteam or warcry game, if you consider the average size of those games maxes at about 10-12 models per side, its hard to imagine a rank and file game with the same model count. What does that look like? 2 units of 6 guys a pop in 2 ranks of 3? 1 unit of 12 guys in 3 ranks of 4? Neither of those really seem like a feasible basis for a game. Realistically a rank and file "skirmish" sized game is looking at probably around 30-40 minis depending on playstyle (2-3 units of 10-15 infantry each, one unit of 5-10 cavalry, a hero or two, and a monster/warmachine). At GW's prices thats basically a full 40k army.

its also weird to me how the pro-WHFB crowd responds to the AoS model range. Half the time its "these models are atrocious World of Warcraft inspired garbage and couldn't hold a candle to my refined and sophisticated gentlemans WHFB minis." The other half of the time its "these models are right at home in WHFB, there was no reason for them to end the setting, they could have sculpted and released these as part of WHFB instead".

Often times its the same person giving both opinions in different conversations about the same mini.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Sounds like a lot of excuses to me. I'm not convinced that WHFB could work as a killteam or warcry game, if you consider the average size of those games maxes at about 10-12 models per side, its hard to imagine a rank and file game with the same model count. What does that look like? 2 units of 6 guys a pop in 2 ranks of 3? 1 unit of 12 guys in 3 ranks of 4? Neither of those really seem like a feasible basis for a game. Realistically a rank and file "skirmish" sized game is looking at probably around 30-40 minis depending on playstyle (2-3 units of 10-15 infantry each, one unit of 5-10 cavalry, a hero or two, and a monster/warmachine). At GW's prices thats basically a full 40k army.

its also weird to me how the pro-WHFB crowd responds to the AoS model range. Half the time its "these models are atrocious World of Warcraft inspired garbage and couldn't hold a candle to my refined and sophisticated gentlemans WHFB minis." The other half of the time its "these models are right at home in WHFB, there was no reason for them to end the setting, they could have sculpted and released these as part of WHFB instead".

Often times its the same person giving both opinions in different conversations about the same mini.

But of course - both statements can be true at the same time depending on the point of view and context.

As for smaller games. Warcry is nothing like AoS full rules; meanwhile Underworld is a boardgame. There's no reason to preserve the rank and file if GW made a smaller skirmish game to compliment Old World. They'd just have built it differently from the ground up. Perhaps working better with a battlebox/getting started set so that it worked right off the box (with a little room to modify for different armies contents etc...). There are many ways they could have promoted smaller model count games to help promote the game and to provide a vector to introduce people. They've done it with AoS. All it needed was identifying the problems and developing the solutions to those problems. Namely burnout before you got ot the "proper 2K games" region. Even AoS today uses armies of generally comparable size (perhaps a touch smaller for some

 lord marcus wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Those Forest dragon minis are casted in what?

Zeroes and ones

Overread wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Those Forest dragon minis are casted in what?

It's a 3D printer patreon so you get files that you either pay to have a firm print for you or you print at home on a 3D printer.

Oh one of those.
Nothing worth my gold coins.

As the co-owner of a 3D printing service, I can tell you resin 3D prints are just as good as resin cast miniatures.

I have no doubts about the advancements in quality. I do however do not believe 15mm should be cast in anything else but metal. Regarding the STL. Zbrush printers etc I could post a huge wall of text about my feelings how this affects the industry but its not the time and place. But thank you nevertheless Marcus.

 Overread wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Sounds like a lot of excuses to me. I'm not convinced that WHFB could work as a killteam or warcry game, if you consider the average size of those games maxes at about 10-12 models per side, its hard to imagine a rank and file game with the same model count. What does that look like? 2 units of 6 guys a pop in 2 ranks of 3? 1 unit of 12 guys in 3 ranks of 4? Neither of those really seem like a feasible basis for a game. Realistically a rank and file "skirmish" sized game is looking at probably around 30-40 minis depending on playstyle (2-3 units of 10-15 infantry each, one unit of 5-10 cavalry, a hero or two, and a monster/warmachine). At GW's prices thats basically a full 40k army.

its also weird to me how the pro-WHFB crowd responds to the AoS model range. Half the time its "these models are atrocious World of Warcraft inspired garbage and couldn't hold a candle to my refined and sophisticated gentlemans WHFB minis." The other half of the time its "these models are right at home in WHFB, there was no reason for them to end the setting, they could have sculpted and released these as part of WHFB instead".

Often times its the same person giving both opinions in different conversations about the same mini.

But of course - both statements can be true at the same time depending on the point of view and context.

As for smaller games. Warcry is nothing like AoS full rules; meanwhile Underworld is a boardgame. There's no reason to preserve the rank and file if GW made a smaller skirmish game to compliment Old World. They'd just have built it differently from the ground up. Perhaps working better with a battlebox/getting started set so that it worked right off the box (with a little room to modify for different armies contents etc...). There are many ways they could have promoted smaller model count games to help promote the game and to provide a vector to introduce people. They've done it with AoS. All it needed was identifying the problems and developing the solutions to those problems. Namely burnout before you got ot the "proper 2K games" region. Even AoS today uses armies of generally comparable size (perhaps a touch smaller for some

I guess, but at that point you've basically stripped away the defining feature and core experience of Warhammer Fantasy gameplay by turning it into a skirmish game. Kill Team works as a "starter" game because it uses most of the 40k core rules with slight tweaks and still provides a similar gameplay experience true the 40k setting. I've never really thought of Underworlds as being a "starter" game for AoS, to me it always seemed something separate, and Warcry is an odd duckling because its marketed like AoS Kill Team, but AoS Skirmish is intended to be the equivalent experience. In this sense, Warcry is intended to be more like the AoS version of Necromunda (but with greater miniatures crossover).

Aash wrote:
Just saw this:
https://spikeybits.com/2021/02/rumors-warhammer-old-world-not-28mm-scale.html

Does anyone know if this rumour has popped up elsewhere? Any chance it might be true, and if so what are people's thoughts?

I don't believe anything I see on spikeybits unless I've previously seen it in multiple other places.

That said, I do think there's a valid assumption here. I think that everyone who's already frantically building new square based fantasy armies may be in for a rude surprise when it turns out that the Old World is actually a 10-mm regiment-based game, deliberately built to mimic the Total War: Warhammer video games. Square bases, sure, but each base holds an entire regiment of 10mm minis. Because really, all we know so far about the game is: square bases, set in the Old World, there will be Kislev minis.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

The concept art they've shown is pretty clearly intended for 28mm scale

Its actually intended for video game art/model assets, so uhh....

No, it wasn't. That's not what was said about the TW:W collaboration.

From the TW:W3 FAQ:

Is all this new Kislev and Cathay content for Total War: WARHAMMER III legit?

Yes! Games Workshop has expanded and created these factions, and partnered with us

From The Warhammer Community article:

the Games Workshop creative studio is hard at work on Warhammer The Old World, a project that will see the return of the world-that-was to the tabletop, and their designs have fed directly into the development of Total War: Warhammer

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/02/03/watch-kislev-battle-a-bloodthirster-in-the-first-trailer-for-total-war-warhammer-iii/
th
Concepts made for the Old World project were then used in TW:W3, not the other way around with CA asking GW to make them for them in the first place. GW did the concepts for TOW, not as something intended for TW:W3.

Never said Creative Assembly had anything to do with the design work.

Note the title of the video featuring Andy Hoare and Mark Bedford: "Designing Kislev and Cathay for Total War: Warhammer III", as posted by the official Warhammer Youtube account. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STAxzrnd0aA


Also, perhaps curiously, it would be weird if Cathay was designed for The Old World given that they don't actually ever mention that being the case at all, anywhere - they have only ever said that *Kislev* will be coming to The Old World, and thats it. In fact, on facebook warcom was asked about Cathay for The Old World, and the only thing they would say is basically "we don't have anything to announce on that but stay tuned for future updates!" - weird that Cathay was designed for TOW (as you purport) but they won't confirm that they are releasing them for TOW despite apparently announcing them in that article, don't you think?

Its been discussed elsewhere that the development of TWW3 has influenced the development of TOW directly and was part of the impetus for the inclusion of Kislev in TOW.

The article and the video are both in the context of Total War: Warhammer and how those factions ended up in the game, the use of "for" in the title does not necessitate that they were came up with for TW:W3 in the first place as they're discussing what Creative Assembley did with TOW concepts to realize them in-game, they still had to design them as a faction in-game. That video discussing Kislev and Cathay is also said within the article to be about "their work on an earlier period in Kislev’s history for Warhammer The Old World." so once again mentioning what's being talked about as being something done for the TOW project.

Since the first reveal multiple articles the Warhammer Community page have implied that the concepts for Kislev were done for The Old World, as they've returned to Kislev because The Old World gives them the "opportunity to revisit certain aspects of its classic lore and delve into them in greater detail". The Ice Guard concept was an "early look at one of the factions that’s in the works for the return of Warhammer’s Old World" and the Bear Cavalry specifically was said to be for a model, with the concept art shown being "a long way from being models yet, but we’ve secured some stunning concept sketches of what you’ll be able to expect." And like I already said, there's the mention of their designs feeding into TW:W3, not the other way around.

There's far more to indicate that they're concepts done for TOW in the first place rather than them being concepts GW did specifically for CA so they could put them into TW:W3 that they just decided to use for TOW anyway.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Overread wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Sounds like a lot of excuses to me. I'm not convinced that WHFB could work as a killteam or warcry game, if you consider the average size of those games maxes at about 10-12 models per side, its hard to imagine a rank and file game with the same model count. What does that look like? 2 units of 6 guys a pop in 2 ranks of 3? 1 unit of 12 guys in 3 ranks of 4? Neither of those really seem like a feasible basis for a game. Realistically a rank and file "skirmish" sized game is looking at probably around 30-40 minis depending on playstyle (2-3 units of 10-15 infantry each, one unit of 5-10 cavalry, a hero or two, and a monster/warmachine). At GW's prices thats basically a full 40k army.

its also weird to me how the pro-WHFB crowd responds to the AoS model range. Half the time its "these models are atrocious World of Warcraft inspired garbage and couldn't hold a candle to my refined and sophisticated gentlemans WHFB minis." The other half of the time its "these models are right at home in WHFB, there was no reason for them to end the setting, they could have sculpted and released these as part of WHFB instead".

Often times its the same person giving both opinions in different conversations about the same mini.

But of course - both statements can be true at the same time depending on the point of view and context.

As for smaller games. Warcry is nothing like AoS full rules; meanwhile Underworld is a boardgame. There's no reason to preserve the rank and file if GW made a smaller skirmish game to compliment Old World. They'd just have built it differently from the ground up. Perhaps working better with a battlebox/getting started set so that it worked right off the box (with a little room to modify for different armies contents etc...). There are many ways they could have promoted smaller model count games to help promote the game and to provide a vector to introduce people. They've done it with AoS. All it needed was identifying the problems and developing the solutions to those problems. Namely burnout before you got ot the "proper 2K games" region. Even AoS today uses armies of generally comparable size (perhaps a touch smaller for some

I guess, but at that point you've basically stripped away the defining feature and core experience of Warhammer Fantasy gameplay by turning it into a skirmish game. Kill Team works as a "starter" game because it uses most of the 40k core rules with slight tweaks and still provides a similar gameplay experience true the 40k setting. I've never really thought of Underworlds as being a "starter" game for AoS, to me it always seemed something separate, and Warcry is an odd duckling because its marketed like AoS Kill Team, but AoS Skirmish is intended to be the equivalent experience. In this sense, Warcry is intended to be more like the AoS version of Necromunda (but with greater miniatures crossover).

The key is that Underworlds and Warcry can both get a person playing with models with 1 purchase. Underworld even does coloured plastic and pushfit; you can be playing in the 5 mins you clip the models out of the sprue. The key is that what game you play when you start doesn't really matter. What matters is that you're getting social interaction; gaming; reward and engagement with the community and game side of the hobby. All the things that basically support and encourage you to buy more models; build and paint them and field them in greater numbers.

So you start with Underworld; one box and you've got a few games; so yo uthen move to warcry after a bit. A few more models in the box and you have to glue them together; but you get it done and again you're playing with 1 purchase very fast with the other gamers. A few more boxes and you're on your way to a meeting engagement at 1K points. By that point you're into it enough that the move to 2K isn't a huge barrier and you're all enthusiastic and should be socially bound to the group you're playing with.


In contrast with the Old World you could game at 500points, but it wouldn't work well and you might well lose a LOT just because of the army you chose not even working at 500points. Even up to 1K its not really working. So you don't get that same immediate reward and social connection. It's EVEN worse if the community that's left was mostly older gamers with 2K armies who really only want to and know how to play at that point level. So suddenly you've got that 2K hump of models ot build and paint to get over to get into the social side of the game.

Possibility of a larger scale? GW could be looking at Conquest and salivating at what they could charge for Stormcast sized Kislevites.

Warhammer Old Worlds will be 1/6 Scale.

You heard it here first.

I think the old world is going to be smaller scale,

but Spikeybits is so unreliable i'm almost convinced it's 28mm now

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I think the old world is going to be smaller scale,

but Spikeybits is so unreliable i'm almost convinced it's 28mm now

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Not making TOW at their usual scale means the game is DOA for the vast majority of the market they're aiming for. That's a recipe for failure before a single product is launched.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I think the old world is going to be smaller scale,

but Spikeybits is so unreliable i'm almost convinced it's 28mm now

I've said it before, I'll say it again: Not making TOW at their usual scale means the game is DOA for the vast majority of the market they're aiming for. That's a recipe for failure before a single product is launched.

Yup. It is always said 'but then people could use their old armies and not buy new ones' but the reality is that (generally speaking) players who keep playing, keep buying. We have seen plenty of times over the decades that wargames live or die on their community; even a great game with great models will fail if there is no one around to play it with. When people can proxy their existing minis they go 'oh hey maybe I can try this out...'

There is also the factor of WHFB kits that are still around, still good, and need nothing more than square bases to work. The number of unit options that would not need new sculpts because of that is quite large.

And at 28mm any TOW kit becomes an AoS kit with the simple addition of a free warscroll download.

And finally, there is plain old cashing in on nostalgia. People want that. Especially these days.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
And finally, there is plain old cashing in on nostalgia. People want that. Especially these days.

I admit I suck at predictions because I always underestimate the mental inflexibility of grognards.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
And finally, there is plain old cashing in on nostalgia. People want that. Especially these days.

I admit I suck at predictions because I always underestimate the mental inflexibility of grognards.

One day long in the future you'll be a Grognard!

You'll be at the club, announcing proudly that you finally found someone online who unearthed the old Gloomspite moulds and has managed to find an old plastic casting machine to put them into limited production again. You'll show off the classic plastic mangler to young kids and youths who will be shocked that you use plastic to make models and that its not even complete. That you have to use hand skills to cut, clean, assemble and paint the model! Meanwhile they'll be using their GWHoloboxes which let them edit fully 3D holographic models down to the smallest nanopixel. They'll not understand the fun in moving the physical model around on the table - oh but how would you do line of sight or movement when you can't have the computer lasers calculate it for you!

And then in that moment you'll realise that even though you might own a Mk1 Holobox somewhere in a shoebox under your bed, you have become Lord Blackfang Grognard!

The idea TOW would be a smaller scale was baseless and bonkers when it was posited in the earlier thread. Nothing has changed.

That Spikeybits have read that thread and mined it for the cause of the most fractious bickering does not make it a ‘rumour’ from any ‘industry insider’ in the slightest. It’s click bait, and as someone upthread said, it’s worked.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The idea TOW would be a smaller scale was baseless and bonkers when it was posited in the earlier thread. Nothing has changed.

That Spikeybits have read that thread and mined it for the cause of the most fractious bickering does not make it a ‘rumour’ from any ‘industry insider’ in the slightest. It’s click bait, and as someone upthread said, it’s worked.

It doesn't even seem to be a rumour specifically about it being smaller scale. It's that they "heard" of a rumour from an "industry insider" who has supposedly said there are "signs" it might be a different scale, followed by the rest of the article appearing to be mostly just what they (the site) think implies it might be a smaller scale - so it doesn't sound like what's actually been told to them, just speculation to find something to fit in with the idea.

And it seems that their reasoning for thinking it'll be a different scale involves...

Square bases can fit different scales of miniatures

Bretonnia and Kislev had Warmaster miniatures

TOW is supposedly a smaller game

GW apparently doesn't like to make games that feel familiar (So i guess Necromunda, Aeronautica Imperialis and Titanicus didn't happen?)

Nonsense about GW apparantly wanting to "control their IP" so heavily that they don't like the idea of normal-scale Kislev and Bretonnia anymore because they're similar to historical Miniatures

Total War Warhammer is a thing

Something about the Horus Heresy being based on W40K, but is now outdated so doesn't play much like 40K, so TOW will have to be different from AoS?

Warmaster also had bears

"We don't really know"

So....it seems nothing of substance.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The idea TOW would be a smaller scale was baseless and bonkers when it was posited in the earlier thread. Nothing has changed.

That Spikeybits have read that thread and mined it for the cause of the most fractious bickering does not make it a ‘rumour’ from any ‘industry insider’ in the slightest. It’s click bait, and as someone upthread said, it’s worked.

I don't think it was ever posited that TOW "would" be a smaller scale, it was just brought up that it'd be cool if it was a smaller scale since it'd fix one of the problems with WHFB where the game was growing in scale of number of models to the point of being impractical in 28mm.

It's essentially wishlisting. I'd love for TOW to be a warmaster replacement, but there is exactly 1% chance of that happening and 99% chance of it being rank and file 28mm mess.

It could happen, it isn't preposterous, but there's no evidence for it beyond speculation and you can easily speculate both for and against it. GW themselves probably haven't decided yet, given that we got full news articles for "We have a logo" and "It's going to have Kislev"

Spikey Bits is trash first off.

Secondly I always love it when people complain about Grognards without any sort of irony.

Billicus wrote:
It could happen, it isn't preposterous, but there's no evidence for it beyond speculation and you can easily speculate both for and against it. GW themselves probably haven't decided yet, given that we got full news articles for "We have a logo" and "It's going to have Kislev"

Fairly certain they have considering the very first anything for it was them teasing a return of a square based game with an image of an old WHFB base.

Billicus wrote:
It could happen, it isn't preposterous, but there's no evidence for it beyond speculation and you can easily speculate both for and against it. GW themselves probably haven't decided yet, given that we got full news articles for "We have a logo" and "It's going to have Kislev"

The idea that Games Workshop basically just went "Maybe we should do something with the WHFB setting again? No idea what but lets tell people anyway, we'll figure out what to actually do later" just seems utterly absurd. Committing to a large project without any indication at all about which direction to go in would be an absolutely terrible idea, of course they have some idea of what the fundamentals of it will, they can't just make it all up as they go without planning ahead.

Billicus wrote:
GW themselves probably haven't decided yet

Literally the decision of how big the miniatures are going to be in a ressurection of a game is one of the first decisions they had made. There is just no other way.

Also this rumour is not preposterous. There is lots and lots of old miniatures on the market and in people's basement for WFB. Making the game smaller like 15mm or 20mm is a logical marketing decision.

The only real argument against making smaller scale of miniatures is "I have entire contingents of old WFB armies and i want to use them. If i will not be able to use them i will be very angry". This is practically the only true argument against such decision.

Let the hate begin.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Billicus wrote:
It could happen, it isn't preposterous, but there's no evidence for it beyond speculation and you can easily speculate both for and against it. GW themselves probably haven't decided yet, given that we got full news articles for "We have a logo" and "It's going to have Kislev"

The idea that Games Workshop basically just went "Maybe we should do something with the WHFB setting again? No idea what but lets tell people anyway, we'll figure out what to actually do later" just seems utterly absurd. Committing to a large project without any indication at all about which direction to go in would be an absolutely terrible idea, of course they have some idea of what the fundamentals of it will, they can't just make it all up as they go without planning ahead.

But they literally told us that's what they did.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Billicus wrote:
It could happen, it isn't preposterous, but there's no evidence for it beyond speculation and you can easily speculate both for and against it. GW themselves probably haven't decided yet, given that we got full news articles for "We have a logo" and "It's going to have Kislev"

The idea that Games Workshop basically just went "Maybe we should do something with the WHFB setting again? No idea what but lets tell people anyway, we'll figure out what to actually do later" just seems utterly absurd. Committing to a large project without any indication at all about which direction to go in would be an absolutely terrible idea, of course they have some idea of what the fundamentals of it will, they can't just make it all up as they go without planning ahead.

But they literally told us that's what they did.

It isn't. They announced The Old World before having done much progress with it, with the intention of showing us the project as it develops. That isn't the same as having absolutely no plan at all and no idea what they're even doing in the first place, to the point they don't even know whether it's going to be a Warmaster or WHFB scale game, both of which would require very different things to do.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Billicus wrote:
It could happen, it isn't preposterous, but there's no evidence for it beyond speculation and you can easily speculate both for and against it. GW themselves probably haven't decided yet, given that we got full news articles for "We have a logo" and "It's going to have Kislev"

The idea that Games Workshop basically just went "Maybe we should do something with the WHFB setting again? No idea what but lets tell people anyway, we'll figure out what to actually do later" just seems utterly absurd. Committing to a large project without any indication at all about which direction to go in would be an absolutely terrible idea, of course they have some idea of what the fundamentals of it will, they can't just make it all up as they go without planning ahead.

GW by the now know how to keep people within their Bubble
so just droping something from time to time to keep people talking and waiting because there might be anything in the future which prevents them from wandering away

and this is the whole point, as GW does not want to show you anything before release because they don't want you to save money for it but spend the money now on something different (and than again for the stuff you really wanted)
but they also don't want you to spend the money somewhere else, and showing an empty square base es enough for the majority to stop giving money to others but wait for GW

Yes, it was transparently an attempt to steal mindshare from Kings of War 3rd edition by announcing something, anything, regardless of how far off.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The idea TOW would be a smaller scale was baseless and bonkers when it was posited in the earlier thread. Nothing has changed.

That Spikeybits have read that thread and mined it for the cause of the most fractious bickering does not make it a ‘rumour’ from any ‘industry insider’ in the slightest. It’s click bait, and as someone upthread said, it’s worked.

I don't think it was ever posited that TOW "would" be a smaller scale, it was just brought up that it'd be cool if it was a smaller scale since it'd fix one of the problems with WHFB where the game was growing in scale of number of models to the point of being impractical in 28mm.

Oh indeed. But people took it and ran with it despite zero evidence. And this article and thread are an extension of that. Even though there’s zero chance it will come to pass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cronch wrote:
It's essentially wishlisting. I'd love for TOW to be a warmaster replacement, but there is exactly 1% chance of that happening and 99% chance of it being rank and file 28mm mess.

100% this. If anything, minis will be current embiggened scale. 0% chance of a whole new scale.

"Might not be 28mm"?
Lol.
Well of course it won't be 28mm. What's GW's scale now? 35mm? It had been 32mm for ages but has crept up again.

Is LotR still 28mm (and called 25mm)?

Cronch wrote:
It's essentially wishlisting. I'd love for TOW to be a warmaster replacement, but there is exactly 1% chance of that happening and 99% chance of it being rank and file 28mm mess.

I wouldn't say 99%.

A rank and file game is either a lot of work to build from the ground up, or not going to sell brilliantly if they just recycle old models, many of which were well due for a refresh anyway.

At this point I don't think we know with any assurance what we'll be getting. It might just be like Mordheim, that had square bases after all, lol.

Is this thread really necessary?
Not only do we have a dedicated Old World thread already, all of these exact same points have been argued within it months ago (probably by the exact same people). We can keep throwing the same arguments about cost, reusability of miniatures, game size and bases back and forth another 100 times, but the simple fact is that we're currently just waiting for more info, and this "article" isn't it. As already established in the first posts of this thread, Spikeybits doesn't qualify as news and I'd struggle to dare call it a rumour. It's baseless, barely coherent junk.

It will be 28mm. The DOC line will be useable in all 4 games. 40k AOS HH WOW

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
Is this thread really necessary?
Not only do we have a dedicated Old World thread already, all of these exact same points have been argued within it months ago (probably by the exact same people). We can keep throwing the same arguments about cost, reusability of miniatures, game size and bases back and forth another 100 times, but the simple fact is that we're currently just waiting for more info, and this "article" isn't it. As already established in the first posts of this thread, Spikeybits doesn't qualify as news and I'd struggle to dare call it a rumour. It's baseless, barely coherent junk.

Agreed. First post should have been added there in the first place. Or ignored completely as where it came from

Wow, what a thread....


The "Oldworld" is going to be the same scale as AOS. You heard it here first.

No comment on Spiky bits. watched a couple of his shows and he seemed like kind of a douche, but not really anyone to pee on his leg.

Think about it, all the tooling, all the figures in the ranges, all the armies... and you think they are going to go back to 28mm?

(I've been pricing figs myself- do you know how much tooling and design of the molds costs?)

And if this IS coming from "Spiky Bits", send him my way and I will set him straight.

To be clear, these figures are in the 32mm range. and Industry standards are increasing to "Old School GW Heroic Scale 28"- which is 32mm. NOW, with companies keeping up with the industry lead, they are going to go the same route, and some are even scaling up to 35mm.

Industry follows the leader, and the leader right now is 32mm. One for the obvious- to make your product different then the rest of the kids, the second- because of the quality of sculpts that GW is attaining, and no one else is doing it in the same way.

Remember the conversation we had back when GW decided to Pee on the fans and arbitrarily pulled Fantasy?
We called it. It isn't that much of a shocker.

You want to know what the shocker is? It will be the sticker price...
Look at the "New" warhammer quest game. THAT is your scale for the new fantasy...


Prices too, because....