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Part of what has people so excited is being able to use their old stuff, and to see those model lines expanded.

I think that was an unrealistic and unreasonable dream to begin with and myself and others have spent a lot of time trying to talk people out of starting TOW armies using WHFB minis from ebay and second-hand finds in the interrim while we wait for more information. Those people are probably going to get screwed and tbh I don't think I'll be too bothered about it when they are.

The game is already established as being set in a different time period from WHFB was, on that basis alone some % of WHFB minis are going to be disqualified (even if its just not being able to use your Karl Franz and Balthasar Gelt minis), GW could push that pretty far and basically disqualify entire factions worth of minis from being fieldable (and may do that anyway simply on the basis of the geography of the setting, but we shall see about that). On top of that though it doesn't do GW much good to release a game where a large portion of the potential audience already has pre-existing armies to use with it, whether it be legacy WHFB minis or just repurposing some of their AoS minis, etc. - not much to sell those people if they all say "no thanks, Im good". Likewise keep in mind that one of the biggest challenges for WHFB back in the day was that huge number of alternative minis available for it from other manufacturers. Towards the end of its run it wasn't uncommon locally to see multiple players showing up with an entire army built without a single GW miniature in it. Since WHFB died that problem has exacerbated itself by several orders of magnitude as Mantic has significantly expanded its own miniatures range and a number of other companies have launched numbers of historical and fantasy plastics right in the same size range as the old WHFB miniatures, not to mention the *huge* number of WHFB imitation/inspired 3d printable miniatures ranges that have been launched.

GW finding a way to invalidate some portion of pre-existing collections is almost a given, whether that be through WYSIWYG ("Yeah, heres our new Empire range, during this time period the Empire hasn't adopted blackpowder weaponry yet so all your guns and cannons can't be used, knights are exclusively armed with either flails or cavalry halberds, and state troops are armed with an axe and shield or a pavise and crossbow"), through scale differences, through differences in basing, or through some other method that forces people to have to make some significant financial investment. Oh, and don't get me started on the *names* that these things are going to have, no more state troops - the axemen are called "Hochland Hatchetmen" armed with "Drakwald Hatchet-axes", the crossbowmen are "Wissenland Bolt-chargers" armed with "Truestrike Torquebows" or something, etc.

chaos0xomega wrote:

I shouldn't think Mantic or other similar games even come into the equation from a business perspective (I can imagine there is a massive gulf in terms of income between the two) - other than there being that small games developer social circle in Nottingham, many having started their careers in GW, and by extension I assume a bunch of them all knowing each other.

It doesn't. In terms of Revenues GW makes in about 2-3 weeks what Mantic makes in an entire year (and that might be being generous towards Mantic, I only have a rough revenue range for them, not an exact). In terms of game popularity, Kings of War isn't anywhere near as popular as Warhammer Fantasy Battle was, and is even further behind AoS in that category. Could it, in another 20 years time, become a titan of the industry? Maybe, but its not very likely.

And yet GW made the Old World announcement, while having absolutely nothing to show, specifically to torpedo King of War 3rd edition's release hype.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

I shouldn't think Mantic or other similar games even come into the equation from a business perspective (I can imagine there is a massive gulf in terms of income between the two) - other than there being that small games developer social circle in Nottingham, many having started their careers in GW, and by extension I assume a bunch of them all knowing each other.

It doesn't. In terms of Revenues GW makes in about 2-3 weeks what Mantic makes in an entire year (and that might be being generous towards Mantic, I only have a rough revenue range for them, not an exact). In terms of game popularity, Kings of War isn't anywhere near as popular as Warhammer Fantasy Battle was, and is even further behind AoS in that category. Could it, in another 20 years time, become a titan of the industry? Maybe, but its not very likely.

And yet GW made the Old World announcement, while having absolutely nothing to show, specifically to torpedo King of War 3rd edition's release hype.

Prove it. I've seen a lot of people claiming this on the basis that they announced the same day KoW 3rd released, except thats not true - KoW3 released October 21st, 2019 (and was announced 6+ months previous to that), the Old World announcement was made on November 15th. If GW was trying to kill Mantic hype they had a lot of opportunity to actually do so - and didn't.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Part of what has people so excited is being able to use their old stuff, and to see those model lines expanded.

I think that was an unrealistic and unreasonable dream to begin with and myself and others have spent a lot of time trying to talk people out of starting TOW armies using WHFB minis from ebay and second-hand finds in the interrim while we wait for more information. Those people are probably going to get screwed and tbh I don't think I'll be too bothered about it when they are.

I'm still pissed that my WE and Bret armies were left in the lurch, but I don't expect GW to create a game that just lets people use their old stuff.

Some folk reckon The Old World will just use the old WHFB models, but I'm not convinced of that because GW makes most of their money from new releases, so they're probably not going to make as much from a game that recycles old models compared to bringing out new stuff. But they need to balance that with the overall scope of the game, a problem with WHFB is that it grew so large that it took up a huge amount of store shelf space and different SKUs to maintain it all.

Some folk reckon The Old World will just use the old WHFB models

We have a term for those people: Wrong.

Besides that, GW disposed of many (but not all) of the WHFB molds (mostly older metal/finecast molds, but also some of the older plastic molds too) after putting them up as last chance to buy in order to free up space for other activity in the interrim while they were constructing the annex production/warehousing space. Could they bring back some of the range beyond whats currently available via AOS? Yes, could they bring it all back? Most likely no.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
But they need to balance that with the overall scope of the game, a problem with WHFB is that it grew so large that it took up a huge amount of store shelf space and different SKUs to maintain it all.

hence why people come up with the smaller scale as this would solve a lot of those problems

I don’t think I’d mind smaller scale as much as I once would’ve, but I don’t see it happening.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Prove it. I've seen a lot of people claiming this on the basis that they announced the same day KoW 3rd released, except thats not true - KoW3 released October 21st, 2019 (and was announced 6+ months previous to that), the Old World announcement was made on November 15th. If GW was trying to kill Mantic hype they had a lot of opportunity to actually do so - and didn't.

Yea I don't have a recording of Rountree twirling his moustache while giving out orders...

I know it wasn't same day but it was just as people were starting to get their books (late as usual for Mantic) and there was some real chatter about the game. Nothing else happened in that time to prompt GW to break all their conventions and make an annoucement out of nowhere for something 3 years in advance when they had nothing but a working title to show. Nothing but a playerbase at the hegiht of excitement for regiment fantasy battles. The fact that it did come 3 weeks late helps, if anything, my assertion, as it shows that GW had absolutely no plans for such a game until they saw the sudden buzz around KoW and then they scrambled to greenlight something, anything, overnight (in corporate terms) to steal that thunder. The sad part is that it worked wonderfully well. I saw soooo many exclaim that day "Oh bugger getting into KoW then, I'm just gonna wait for GW to take me back"

Does GW really "worry" about people re-using old models? Space Marines as an army have few new concepts within them and yet sell like crazy. Even Primaris are basically just marines on larger bases and tanks that over instead of crawl

In general new sculpts will sell and those with "classic" collections who don't choose to buy new things are going to do the same thing that free players do in mmo games - provide games for customers who are buying into the game.


The only time its an issue is if no one is buying the new stuff and with GW's current sales and design record I can't see them being afraid of that.


The only thing they have to ensure is that the new Old World armies are distinct enough from the AoS armies. AT the same time GW 100% knows if the two games share a scale then people will cross over. For GW it doesn't matter what game you play with them or if you game with them at all; only that sales are generated.




Warmaster scale provides something new, but at the same time that scale of games isn't as popular; it isn't as well supported and its far more of a gamble for GW. So far they have given no hint that its even on the cards and any hints of an Epic scale game of its nature are squashed instantly. Basically GW is showing no interest in following that pathway at this stage.


I fully expect the old world game to be 28-35mm scale comparable to AoS. My only real concern is that GW gets most AoS armies to a good state BEFORE Old World launches. The last thing I'd want is for skaven to still have generation 1 plastics and for Fyreslayers to still be a handful of kits etc... all when Old World throws out brand new top end armies into the mix. That's my only worry, that AoS gets left behind and as a result has its growth and marketing stunted.

Thing is GW is out of the gate big this year for AoS already. Give a few more armies the Lumineth/Necron treatment and the game will be up to speed within those 3 years that old world might appear at the end of

Yes, GW continually goes out of its way to invalidate old model ranges. See Titanicus.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Yes, GW continually goes out of its way to invalidate old model ranges. See Titanicus.

Utter nonsense.

It was nigh on 20 years since Titan Legions when AT was tarted up. The number of people that still had a collection, let alone still in the hobby and waiting for it to come back would be absolutely minuscule.

And remember, the original Adeptus Titanicus didn’t have a set scale. The Epic infantry did, of around 6mm. But the original game did not.

Indeed, the Titans are now much better scaled with old Epic. But hey, we can prove anything with facts.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Yes, GW continually goes out of its way to invalidate old model ranges. See Titanicus.

There's what 10-15 years since AT was last on the market and GW's plastics have come a huge way since then. I doubt they had any concerns for the old market using old sculpts; they were simply porting the designs with a faithful air to the current scales as shown in the 40K game through the FW models for the Warlord and such.



Heck I had a warlord and reaver (lead) and 2 Imperators and I sold them on recently. They were not top condition, but they were still good models. That said the sculpts have moved on leaps and bounds and I favour the new designs greatly over the original ones. Even if GW never makes and sells an Imperator again the new warlord and other models are outstanding in quality and detail that the others never ever head.

I think GW is well aware it's audience will eventually replace their old models on their own, they don't need to be 'forced' into it per say. How many Necromunda and Blood Bowl tables do you see with people using the old kits, even those people who were playing the games back in the 90's? How many 'Firstborn' armies do you see these days that aren't for 30k? How many people who complained (and still complain) about Primaris never the less buy literally every new release and now field nothing but Primaris sans some vehicles?

I'm as cynical about GW as anyone, but I think if they believed the "Grogs won't buy new versions of old models" they'd not update things like Necron Warriors, Chaos Marines, etc, arguably the entire Primaris line (since people could just proxy).

I think GW knows that the vast majority of people will just replace their old models regardless, just because people generally buy the new hotness that GW produces no matter what - they might not buy six-ten boxes of Empire State Troops right away, but GW expect them to phase out their old stuff over time. There's also a lot of new blood that has entered the hobby since WHFB's time who've proven themselves to be as brand loyal as the people who came before with no WHFB models to their name that aren't being utilised in AoS.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Some folk reckon The Old World will just use the old WHFB models

We have a term for those people: Wrong.

Besides that, GW disposed of many (but not all) of the WHFB molds (mostly older metal/finecast molds, but also some of the older plastic molds too) after putting them up as last chance to buy in order to free up space for other activity in the interrim while they were constructing the annex production/warehousing space. Could they bring back some of the range beyond whats currently available via AOS? Yes, could they bring it all back? Most likely no.

I doubt that. Plastics molds are extremely expensive. I could see them throwing them in a storage locker somewhere but not disposing completely.

I believe GW will stay with the 28mm size models. Warmaster didn't sell enough to stay alive. I am hoping that GW will use their superior model production techniques to make better models then the old sculpts. This is where they will make their profit. They are also planning to redevelop the kislev range. They will make a ton of money if they develop a Cathay and Nippon line.

Aash wrote:
Just saw this:
https://spikeybits.com/2021/02/rumors-warhammer-old-world-not-28mm-scale.html

Does anyone know if this rumour has popped up elsewhere? Any chance it might be true, and if so what are people's thoughts?

8mm would be weird scale for them. 6mm like epic/at/ai or　12mm like warmaster would make sense.

But would give actual big battle feel. 28mm means games are always just bunch of guys　in skirmish


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Spikybits is basically an advertising website that uses clickbait titles for articles that are often little more than guesswork based off forums.


GW has given no indication that Old World will be a different scale game. Considering that they want it to "be what Horus Heresy is to 40K" and that they specifically advertised it with an old regular square base and that their smaller scale games tend to sell worse (Epic has been born and died several times and warmaster was never really pushed off the ground).


Suffice to say that there is no evidence save for Warmaster fans hoping. Heck GW hasn't even brought epic back for 40K and every time it comes up the Adepticus Titanicus Team say "NO"

Ah yes. Exceeding gw's own expectations 400% is　bad selling. Warlord titan being best selling kit of year　bad selling. Oh yes.

This whole thing come across as utter nonsense based on the absurd idea of "They want to want to make everything unique now!" that keeps getting repeated despite there being nothing to actually indicate that's the case. I've seen it claimed that it's the result of the chapterhouse lawsuit, even though from what I've read the results of that said the opposite as design styles and themes can't be copyrighted, so it would make no difference how unique the faction identity is. From the IP control/copyright side of things they can't claim the idea of steampunk pirate Dwarves any more than they "can’t claim the aesthetics of the Bretonnians or Empire.", the later obviously has historical miniature counterparts but its not as if that's different now than it was back then. They've designed new units for Kislev yet kept them overall the same style as before, so the idea that they now want to make everything unique (but have for some reason decided not to here) doesn't hold up.

Age of Sigmar was a shift in fantasy style, scale and scope that gave them a chance to do things differently without needing to be based on what there was before, so that's what they've done. Yet this article claims that AoS was done because wanted to "control the IP of all of it."? If that was the case than they wouldn't still have factions that aren't that drastically different from their previous depiction.

The idea of getting people interested in the lore/setting of WHFB again via the video games and such and then wanting to capitalize on that, teasing a return to that beloved setting including the iconic square bases, showing entirely new units and concept art that expand upon small factions, mentioning it'll be a similar project as the Horus Heresy and going on about how it's a big thing and they know people are excited for it, only to later go "Oh, we forgot to tell you, this is a Warmaster reboot, not WHFB! Woops!" would just be a slap in the face because they know what are expecting of this. It doesn't make any sense at all.

There's also that, while Total War Warhammer has obviously generated a lot of new fans of the setting, it's not like that's the only thing that's done so and this is entirely aimed at those players. Other games like Verminide have helped too. It's a return to a setting that know people have interest in still and are longing for, not just a tabletop game for fans of the Total War series.

We should keep in mind that one of the reasons AoS exists were the limitations of the Warhammer World. While lots of AoS models aren't compatible with TOW, EVERY model from WHFB and TOW could find it's place in the Mortal Realms. It's far less a risk to sell TOW kits when they include War scrolls to use them in AoS. That wouldn't work with a different scale.

Earlier a comment was a smaller scale makes sense so they can bring in the huge TWW gamers in, as its such a big pool and they’ll prefer smaller.
Let’s just think about that.
Over half of those gamers, wouldn’t even touch some nerdy tabletop game.
Of the remaining that might be interested (personally I’d say at most 20%, but these are all irrelevant numbers really). It’d all be at different styles of interest, skirmish, big battle, all sorts. Rather than wanting to play the video game they already have, but on a table.
Some might just do s if I instead for something different.
Or kill team/Warcry/Underworlds etc as it’s small.

I really can’t see at all the decision on size being based on anything to do with TW.
(If they hadn’t talked about the design teams working together on concepts and images, would anyone even be linking them as important at all?).


Personally, it's 28.
While yes they will want you to ultimately buy all the new models.
If they can bring all the old gamers back in who either left, moved to 40k/AoS but kept their stuff, and all that - with the “oh use your stuff you have” it’s still great, as that’s another customer invested in a game system. Then you drop all the must have buys, it’s all the new things. Job done.

It’s basically what they do with every Codex, army book and tome.
Already built your full 2000 point army. Well fine, but here’s this new book with new stuff.. better grab a few of these cool new bits, even though you already had enough and were done.
Every old gamer, is still buying a new rukebook, army book, and even a few characters or something at least, but may not invest in a whole new army if Old is invalidated (at first, but then they’ll cave and buy a whole new cool army. We all know how it works ).
But we shall see..

Maybe it's half information that has been taken out of context. It could still be 28mm, but as we know, Forgeworld doesn't really do 28mm 'Heroic'.

Obviously GW would create new sculpts for a new old world release, but we shouldn't ignore the cost/development saving of re-using some of the old ones. Not having to employ design teams and get new plastic sprues produced would be a big saving. And I know Oldhammer is a thing (not to mention KoW fans) but as a percentage how many people really have old WHFB armies sat in their closet waiting for a re-launch (especially those that didn't burn them?! )

Reproduction is super common in the plastic kit world, with some kits lasting for 20 years or more, re-released constantly with perhaps a minor upgrade or new decals/livery set, or sometimes even with the same kit sold from one company to another and then re-branded.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

The idea of getting people interested in the lore/setting of WHFB again via the video games and such and then wanting to capitalize on that, teasing a return to that beloved setting including the iconic square bases, showing entirely new units and concept art that expand upon small factions, mentioning it'll be a similar project as the Horus Heresy and going on about how it's a big thing and they know people are excited for it, only to later go "Oh, we forgot to tell you, this is a Warmaster reboot, not WHFB! Woops!" would just be a slap in the face because they know what are expecting of this. It doesn't make any sense at all.

There's also that, while Total War Warhammer has obviously generated a lot of new fans of the setting, it's not like that's the only thing that's done so and this is entirely aimed at those players. Other games like Verminide have helped too. It's a return to a setting that know people have interest in still and are longing for, not just a tabletop game for fans of the Total War series.

You have to think that discussion around the continued success of the Total War series - this must be making a lot for GW in royalties - would be central around any discussion of an Old World game. There are all sorts of marketing crossovers that would be possible, it's a massive wasted opportunity for them not to be doing this (and was actually one of the reasons I was surprised GW destroyed the old world, rather than trying to just introduce AoS as a new/separate game).

Why would you sell a full regiment in 15mm for the price of 1 hero mini in 28-32mm?

Smaller scales are different price brackets and to be honest with you neither plastics or resins are the best material for it.

Now if they had metal 15mms at normal prices I would be all over that!

 Arbitrator wrote:

I'm as cynical about GW as anyone, but I think if they believed the "Grogs won't buy new versions of old models" they'd not update things like Necron Warriors, Chaos Marines, etc, arguably the entire Primaris line (since people could just proxy).

I think GW knows that the vast majority of people will just replace their old models regardless, just because people generally buy the new hotness that GW produces no matter what - they might not buy six-ten boxes of Empire State Troops right away, but GW expect them to phase out their old stuff over time. There's also a lot of new blood that has entered the hobby since WHFB's time who've proven themselves to be as brand loyal as the people who came before with no WHFB models to their name that aren't being utilised in AoS.

WHFB proved once that they will do anything to avoid buying new models, we know cause WHFB sold like carp and people went to 3rd party companies as much as they could (I don't blame them, GW prices are whack, but from GW's perspective, it does mean grogs don't buy new models). A person buying into a new army (which is what'd happen with ToS being brand-new game with zero overlap with WHFB models) spends much more than a veteran replacing one unit of 20yo handgunners with a new unit. They either go for wealth of options in-army to make you buy as much as possible (Marines, Stormcast) or as in AoS, make as many smaller armies as possible to make you buy into more than one. Why would this follow any other pattern?

 Pacific wrote:

You have to think that discussion around the continued success of the Total War series - this must be making a lot for GW in royalties - would be central around any discussion of an Old World game. There are all sorts of marketing crossovers that would be possible, it's a massive wasted opportunity for them not to be doing this (and was actually one of the reasons I was surprised GW destroyed the old world, rather than trying to just introduce AoS as a new/separate game).

Any sensible person would be thinking that, yes, but GW has shown time and again that they're not aware of the concept of synergizing their many video game licenses with their miniature games at all.

While it's incredibly unlikely, and the "source" of SpikeyBits is about as reliable as reading tea leaves, I actually would buy into a 10mm or smaller size game. That's an itch I currently don't have a good scratcher for.

I want this new range to be a smaller scale, because a Warmaster army is a spectacle you can't get from 28mm. It probably won't be, though. All GW's minis are as much for collectors and painters as they are for gamers, and 15mm or smaller doesn't offer much to those audiences.

I don’t see it being anything but their usual 28ish mm scale.

For a start, if people can dust off old armies? Instant player base. That is the grail of any war game.

You can have the best rules. You can have gorgeous models at a genuinely affordable price. But you still need to find and retain an audience.

The sooner you can get games being visibly played, the sooner you can grow your initial player base into something financially sustaining your efforts.

Because those initial players will attract the attention of newcomers - and it’s the newcomers starting at the beginning and dropping the big bucks.

You want sales from your existing players? Tactical Kit Updates.

Let’s consider The Empire. As of right now, what remains is pretty solid. The basic infantry are fine. The Pistoliers, Steam Tank and Demi-Gryph cavalry are all fine. Empire Knights? They needed an overhaul for a loooong time. Do that? Sales will ensue.

Indeed, whipping out the already existing moulds gives you a leg up on other broadly similar war games, as you are absolutely not starting from scratch.

With The Old World at 28ish mm, they can do a Ravening Hordes and have more than 12 armies ready to go, fully playable, fully collectible on day one. Straight out the gate.

The more options people have, the longer it takes them to get bored, and the more cost effective it can be to change things up. The previous WHFB had enough variety in terms of models and units to do that. So why throw it away?

Example. I’ve still got my Ogres from 8th Ed. Stick with that scale, and at least no initial invalidation of models that pre-date? I can try the game out for the cost of the rule book, templates (if applicable), and a hypothetical Ravening Hordes (if that’s not punted out for free as tasty bait). If the old itch is scratched, further sales will ensue. Whilst I fully embrace my role as one of life’s little oddballs, I am not alone in that.

Hefty doubt on TOW being anything but the same scale GW does for its ranges now. The concept art they've shown is pretty clearly intended for 28mm scale and if we're arguing that the new AT is "small scale" then may I remind people it's small scale of minis that are like a foot tall. An AT warlord comes close to the size of a regular 40k knight.

Also, Spikeybitz is clickbait paradise.

 Valander wrote:
While it's incredibly unlikely, and the "source" of SpikeyBits is about as reliable as reading tea leaves, I actually would buy into a 10mm or smaller size game. That's an itch I currently don't have a good scratcher for.

People be doing Kings of War in 10mm, there's also Warmaster... "Remastered" I think. Forest Dragon patreon is doing a wonderful job resculpting the armies.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Valander wrote:
While it's incredibly unlikely, and the "source" of SpikeyBits is about as reliable as reading tea leaves, I actually would buy into a 10mm or smaller size game. That's an itch I currently don't have a good scratcher for.

People be doing Kings of War in 10mm, there's also Warmaster... "Remastered" I think. Forest Dragon patreon is doing a wonderful job resculpting the armies.

The current "hard part" (which is probably not all that hard, honestly) is finding models in that scale for fantasy. Or, at least, that involves a little Googling and definitely online purchases. I know of a few ranges, but honestly not too impressed with them, so my "hope" would be a good model range, too. But, unlikely, so I'll just get to work on some of the mountain of backlog of other crap I have anyway.

Edit: Of course, I do have a 3d printer, so I could probably find cool stuff to scale down...