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Just saw this:
https://spikeybits.com/2021/02/rumors-warhammer-old-world-not-28mm-scale.html

Does anyone know if this rumour has popped up elsewhere? Any chance it might be true, and if so what are people's thoughts?
   
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It's Spikeybits.

Your guess is as good as theirs because you'll have about as much proof as them (none).
   
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Said it before, this could be GWs chanse to hit two birds with one stone: combine WH fantasy and Warmaster!

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To quote your previous president... Fake News. SpikeyBits is the lowest of the lowest hanging clickbait my friend.
   
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Spikybits is basically an advertising website that uses clickbait titles for articles that are often little more than guesswork based off forums.


GW has given no indication that Old World will be a different scale game. Considering that they want it to "be what Horus Heresy is to 40K" and that they specifically advertised it with an old regular square base and that their smaller scale games tend to sell worse (Epic has been born and died several times and warmaster was never really pushed off the ground).


Suffice to say that there is no evidence save for Warmaster fans hoping. Heck GW hasn't even brought epic back for 40K and every time it comes up the Adepticus Titanicus Team say "NO"


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What would work best with Total War? After all thats a big big market and they are working closely with them

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/26 12:53:04


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Warmaster scale would work best with Total War if you're trying to capture the look, size, and feel of the battles in that game.

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I'm of the opinion that if total war fans want a giant class.of.armies they are gonna keep playing total war rather than jump to a Warminster scaled game, where as the 28-30mm of warhammer proper has nice flashy figures to grab attention with.

   
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Spikeybits.

However, a smaller scaled rank and file game would be fun from GW.

   
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Total war generates interest in the brand, but GW aren't going to bring back Warmaster because of TW. Warmaster scale games are simply far less popular in general. Heck a huge chunk of the 3-15 and even 18mm market is one-man garage band companies making models which in general get cross used for all kinds of different brand games.

Even in historical games there's a similar approach with only a few companies making a bigger "all under one brand" style products.

Suffice to say its niche and whilst GW could certainly do it ( and with their focus on long term specialist game support right now they might actually do a good job of releasing and marketing the games not just release and death which happened a lot for Epic/Warmaster)



Personally I'm always sad that I never got into Warmaster; I'd love a game of that scale in fantasy from GW and I think AoS would do fantastically well from it. Letting you have big rank and file armies and epic godbeasts, gods and warbeasts and the like. But considering GW is already dragging their heels with Epic, I just can't see them chasing that game option at this stage

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/26 13:33:20


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chaos0xomega wrote:
Warmaster scale would work best with Total War if you're trying to capture the look, size, and feel of the battles in that game.


Warmaster was 10mm I think?

I reckon the best scale for big battles is ~15mm, or half GW's typical size. Small enough that you can paint a model in a few minutes, but big enough that the models still look distinct and can be painted up nicely without a microscope.

I find the problem with 6 to 10mm scale is the infantry models become too abstract because they're just too small. Vehicles and monsters might look okay, but your basic infantry dude doesn't.

Definitely a benefit to smaller scales in the context of the Old World is that GW could make entire armies with just a couple of sprues, reducing their investment and development time. Creating a range like WHFB used to have is going to take a long time and isn't really practical alongside 40k and AoS.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/26 13:50:21


 
   
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 Overread wrote:
Total war generates interest in the brand, but GW aren't going to bring back Warmaster because of TW. Warmaster scale games are simply far less popular in general. Heck a huge chunk of the 3-15 and even 18mm market is one-man garage band companies making models which in general get cross used for all kinds of different brand games.

Even in historical games there's a similar approach with only a few companies making a bigger "all under one brand" style products.

Suffice to say its niche and whilst GW could certainly do it ( and with their focus on long term specialist game support right now they might actually do a good job of releasing and marketing the games not just release and death which happened a lot for Epic/Warmaster)



Personally I'm always sad that I never got into Warmaster; I'd love a game of that scale in fantasy from GW and I think AoS would do fantastically well from it. Letting you have big rank and file armies and epic godbeasts, gods and warbeasts and the like. But considering GW is already dragging their heels with Epic, I just can't see them chasing that game option at this stage


There’s also the concept art they’ve shown off so far.

The Kislev stuff isn’t detail for 6mm or whatever scale Warmaster was. Not even close. Example?



That is not planning for the detail limiting 6mm. 28 or 32mm? Yes, either or, or indeed GW’s own peculiar ‘somewhere in between fluctuating between units and armies’.

GW are resurrecting The Old World. And let’s face it, they’re probably doing it to see off competitors such as Mantic. The more of the overall market GW cater for, the more money they bring in. As GW stands right now, such projects need only break even in terms of sales, because they’re currently absolutely killing it in terms of income.

   
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Gathering the Informations.

Aash wrote:
Just saw this:
https://spikeybits.com/2021/02/rumors-warhammer-old-world-not-28mm-scale.html

Does anyone know if this rumour has popped up elsewhere? Any chance it might be true, and if so what are people's thoughts?

It's not true. It was garbage speculation that garbage sites like Spikey Bits ran with.

This whole thing was discussed months ago.
   
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well, not giving Spikeybits any clicks, but some thoughts about the whole situation:

GW has 3 big games, and several side games
the licence of one of it is going to end soon and they have the old IP for Fantasy Battles unused

all 3 main games are Skirmish games as GW does not see 28mm R&F suitable with their business model of good looking high quality (hence expensive) miniatures

so 2 possibilities

Old World is going to be a specialist game, with 28mm models
some plastic ones from a core box and the rest supplied by FW Resin with either upgrades for the plastic models to turn them into different human factions and or full Resin models for the non-human ones
with the current low afford strategy for the rules, GW will get previous rules as a base, either 6th Edi Ravening Hordes, or 8th and expanding them over time with scenario books

this will be a niche within a niche (like Necromunda or Adeptus Titanicus) and aimed at the old crowed and expensive (they know that a lot of people will just use the old models)


the other possibility is that GW is going to replace LotR as main game with an R&F game

and here is were the smaller scale fits in
because for a main game, GW cannot invest a lot of money and people just using old models to play or even go for community rules and just buying some new heroes from time to time
they need something that is different for all people to buy it

some odd scale, like 12/16/18mm plastic would be the choice to have something new
units will still be standard GW price point and in line with the other games (instead of the 160€ for a 40 models unit in 8th, it will be 40-80 for a 16mm 40 model unit)
and the rules will be similar but differnt from the past

advantage for GW is that were a single sprue for 28mm is limited, a sprue for 12-18mm can have the full formation on it, like 2-3 units and support models, making only 1 sprue per faction necessary to start the game with a decent amount of options

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Spikeybits just read weird fan theories on forums and run with it. There has been ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to indicate a smaller scale.

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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

GW are resurrecting The Old World. And let’s face it, they’re probably doing it to see off competitors such as Mantic. The more of the overall market GW cater for, the more money they bring in. As GW stands right now, such projects need only break even in terms of sales, because they’re currently absolutely killing it in terms of income.


I get the feeling it's probably more to do with GW's current ethos (which is actually pretty wonderful, after the barren years of a decade ago) of just making new games and being lead by their designers. I shouldn't think Mantic or other similar games even come into the equation from a business perspective (I can imagine there is a massive gulf in terms of income between the two) - other than there being that small games developer social circle in Nottingham, many having started their careers in GW, and by extension I assume a bunch of them all knowing each other.

Overread wrote:
Suffice to say that there is no evidence save for Warmaster fans hoping. Heck GW hasn't even brought epic back for 40K and every time it comes up the Adepticus Titanicus Team say "NO"


I think the reason Epic won't happen is because of the amount of new SKUs that would be required to do the game any kind of justice. Remember, it did used to be the 3rd 'main system' and although the memories are now getting a bit hazy it did used to have a fair amount of wall space. Conversely, this is precisely why WH Old World is likely to be a 28mm range. There are still quite a few of the older WHFB sculpts about - let's be honest, most of them don't really fit with the wild and wacky world of AoS, so would make more sense to plug them back in with a new game of the Old World, alongside some new releases.

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I doubt a single model will be carried over from the existing post-WHFB AOS line. The whole point of this enterprise is to sell the nostalgic people new models after all, not offer stuff you could've bought 10 years ago when WHFB was dying.
They will release new sculpts, and yes probably in 28mm, to keep the people with real or 2nd hand nostalgia (the TW:WH players that might be persuaded to buy toys) in the GW "ecology".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/26 14:34:41


 
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Overread wrote:
Total war generates interest in the brand, but GW aren't going to bring back Warmaster because of TW. Warmaster scale games are simply far less popular in general. Heck a huge chunk of the 3-15 and even 18mm market is one-man garage band companies making models which in general get cross used for all kinds of different brand games.

Even in historical games there's a similar approach with only a few companies making a bigger "all under one brand" style products.

Suffice to say its niche and whilst GW could certainly do it ( and with their focus on long term specialist game support right now they might actually do a good job of releasing and marketing the games not just release and death which happened a lot for Epic/Warmaster)



Personally I'm always sad that I never got into Warmaster; I'd love a game of that scale in fantasy from GW and I think AoS would do fantastically well from it. Letting you have big rank and file armies and epic godbeasts, gods and warbeasts and the like. But considering GW is already dragging their heels with Epic, I just can't see them chasing that game option at this stage


There’s also the concept art they’ve shown off so far.

The Kislev stuff isn’t detail for 6mm or whatever scale Warmaster was. Not even close. Example?

Spoiler:


That is not planning for the detail limiting 6mm. 28 or 32mm? Yes, either or, or indeed GW’s own peculiar ‘somewhere in between fluctuating between units and armies’.

GW are resurrecting The Old World. And let’s face it, they’re probably doing it to see off competitors such as Mantic. The more of the overall market GW cater for, the more money they bring in. As GW stands right now, such projects need only break even in terms of sales, because they’re currently absolutely killing it in terms of income.


Warmaster was bigger than 6mm, I think it was 10mm. The models looked a lot nicer than Epic, which was 6mm(-ish), and were more distinctive.

But yeah, I think 15mm is an ideal scale (Flames of War scale, and while some older Flames of War models look a bit derpy the more recent kits show how good a 15mm model can look). At 15mm scale you can still pick out things like heroes and lords.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/26 14:33:55


 
   
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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:



The Kislev stuff isn’t detail for 6mm or whatever scale Warmaster was. Not even close. Example?



That is not planning for the detail limiting 6mm. 28 or 32mm? Yes, either or, or indeed GW’s own peculiar ‘somewhere in between fluctuating between units and armies’.


That's also an extremely big bear in 32mm for a niche game with barely any production resources that might be confined to one starter box.

I've always said TOW is going to be smaller scale. It'll cut down production costs, make it more affordable to build big armies and avoid players just using their old WHFB (or, gasp!, Mantic) minis. Probably won't be 10mm tho, wouldn't want folks using Warmaster minis either. Something like 13 mm probably and call it 1/3 AoS scale like Titanicus is 1/4 40k scale.

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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
Warmaster scale would work best with Total War if you're trying to capture the look, size, and feel of the battles in that game.


Warmaster was 10mm I think?

I reckon the best scale for big battles is ~15mm, or half GW's typical size. Small enough that you can paint a model in a few minutes, but big enough that the models still look distinct and can be painted up nicely without a microscope.

I find the problem with 6 to 10mm scale is the infantry models become too abstract because they're just too small. Vehicles and monsters might look okay, but your basic infantry dude doesn't.

Definitely a benefit to smaller scales in the context of the Old World is that GW could make entire armies with just a couple of sprues, reducing their investment and development time. Creating a range like WHFB used to have is going to take a long time and isn't really practical alongside 40k and AoS.



Yeah, I was using "warmaster scale" as a catch-all to describe anything in the 10-20mm range. I simply don't think 28mm is a suitable scale for a proper big battle rank n file experience, its too expensive to collect and requires far too large of a table in order to get the proper experience out of it (and with GWs new and improved smaller table standards, which I have no doubt The Old World will be adopting, I struggle to imagine a 28mm rank n file game being played on it, unless its a skirmish game where a "horde" army like skaven top out at a max of 30-40 minis for the entire army). Smaller scale miniatures on the other hand would work best, and simply put I think 15mm is probably the superior scale option for this application (and indeed its a massively popular scale with lots of support behind it despite allegations to the contrary).

There’s also the concept art they’ve shown off so far.

The Kislev stuff isn’t detail for 6mm or whatever scale Warmaster was. Not even close. Example?



That is not planning for the detail limiting 6mm. 28 or 32mm? Yes, either or, or indeed GW’s own peculiar ‘somewhere in between fluctuating between units and armies’.

GW are resurrecting The Old World. And let’s face it, they’re probably doing it to see off competitors such as Mantic. The more of the overall market GW cater for, the more money they bring in. As GW stands right now, such projects need only break even in terms of sales, because they’re currently absolutely killing it in terms of income.


You have to keep in mind the concept art was part of the development work done for Total War. A 15mm miniature might not need that level of detail (actually, thats false - you could capture most of that detail in plastic 15mm kit), but video game renders sure do.

the other possibility is that GW is going to replace LotR as main game with an R&F game


Lets keep in mind that LotR is itself at a smaller scale - 25mm.



Anyway, I struggle to imagine the game working at GW's "28mm" (i.e. more like 32mm) scale for a whole host of reasons, but its also true that I struggle to imagine GW bucking trends and going for 15mm or smaller because they are still pushing the "We are a miniatures company" angle primarily. I would not be surprised to see GW announce the game at 20mm or 25mm though - especially if they are dropping the LotR license (and I think its not a coincidence that the LotR license would expire roughly around the same time that this game would be ready to release, ~2023). You can pack details comparable to a 28mm mini into those scales but still have them small and cheap enough to actually play a mass battle rank n file game with them.

I tend to prioritize "game" over "miniature", so my preference would be smaller than 20mm, but I have a suspicion that LotR is going away and TOW is going to end up being 25mm as its a scale that GWs sculptors and production engineers and machinists, etc. are already familiar with and know how to work, and has already been established as being seen by GW itself as a "hobbyist scale" (whereas going smaller than that would push it more into game piece territory). Its slightly less ideal from a gaming standpoint as the difference in footprint of a 25mm and a 28/32mm miniature are somewhat trivial on an individual basis, but if you're putting the minis in rank n file you can easily fit 2x more 25mm miniatures within the same footprint of a block of GWs 28mm/32mm miniatures. You could probably push it closer to 3x more miniatures per area footprint compared to some of the more recent larger sculpts GW has been doing (Stormcast Eternals, Putrid Blightkings, and some of the Khornate mortal AoS infantry for example, they take up a lot of space on the tabletop on those 32mm bases, and some of them are almost 2x taller than the average LotR human mini).

But I guess we'll see how it goes.

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I see people pointing out that HH is the same scale as 40K, but I'm not sure that's relevant- HH leans on a bunch of the same units and vehicles as 40K so it makes sense that it would be the same scale.

TOW, if it's going to be a square-based rank-and-flank game, is going to have minimal overlap with AoS. If it's a totally separate game that doesn't use existing WHFB/AOS kits- which I think is most likely- then there's no reason to assume it'll be the same scale. It's not like GW would keep the WHFB scale so that WHFB players can use their old armies.

I agree with the comments about 15mm: It's a good sweet spot for getting detail on individual models, while being small enough that you can have big centerpieces and an army looks like an army.

   
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This is what my gaming group and I have hoped for from The Old World. A big issue (for me) with Fantasy was that the scale and detail (and price) of the model range grew to be incompatible with the rank and file game system. A smaller scale with non-command/front rank models being much less detailed, and the price per model being much lower, would allow for truly epic rank and file battles.

Plus it would mean us old boys having to buy new collections. That's a plus for GW.

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I shouldn't think Mantic or other similar games even come into the equation from a business perspective (I can imagine there is a massive gulf in terms of income between the two) - other than there being that small games developer social circle in Nottingham, many having started their careers in GW, and by extension I assume a bunch of them all knowing each other.


It doesn't. In terms of Revenues GW makes in about 2-3 weeks what Mantic makes in an entire year (and that might be being generous towards Mantic, I only have a rough revenue range for them, not an exact). In terms of game popularity, Kings of War isn't anywhere near as popular as Warhammer Fantasy Battle was, and is even further behind AoS in that category. Could it, in another 20 years time, become a titan of the industry? Maybe, but its not very likely.

I've always said TOW is going to be smaller scale. It'll cut down production costs, make it more affordable to build big armies and avoid players just using their old WHFB (or, gasp!, Mantic) minis. Probably won't be 10mm tho, wouldn't want folks using Warmaster minis either. Something like 13 mm probably and call it 1/3 AoS scale like Titanicus is 1/4 40k scale.


On that note, its interesting to me that Warlord recently launched its plastic "Epic Scale" American Civil War miniatures line for use with Black Powder, those minis are nominally 15mm scale but closer to ~12.5-13.5mm. Keep in mind that the Warlord guys and the GW guys all know eachother and they *definitely* talk (a good friend of mine is ex-GW corporate himself and close friends with Ronnie Renton, the Perry twins, and a number of other names that you would recognize, I hear things). Also keep in mind that Black Powder was written by Jervis Johnson who is currently still a GW employee("long-term strategy manager"). Coincidence? Absolutely, but its nice to imagine a scenario where warlord got the scoop on GWs future plans and decided to launch a new miniatures range for its own rank and file games in a similar scale so as to capitalize on whats soon to be a growing market.

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I think that would be great, honestly. But I'm sure they're just making things up.
   
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On the other hand, after launching with the shot of the 25mm square base and smashing the nostalgia button real hard, if it's a different scale, there are going to be a lot of angry cries of 'bait and switch'

Part of what has people so excited is being able to use their old stuff, and to see those model lines expanded.


But, again, Spikeybits, so completely baseless clickbait with a higher a chance of of being wrong than a random person on the street who's never heard of warhammer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/02/26 15:06:46


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 catbarf wrote:
I see people pointing out that HH is the same scale as 40K, but I'm not sure that's relevant- HH leans on a bunch of the same units and vehicles as 40K so it makes sense that it would be the same scale.


It kind of bares mentioning that HH isn't quite the same scale as 40k. They were the same at one point, but the recent waves of 40k plastics since late 7th edition have generally been slightly larger than the older minis that the Horus Heresy range was sculpted in line with. Compare the HH marines to Deathwatch marines or Chaos Space Marines and the HH marines are noticeably smaller. On top of that forgeworld non-astartes human sculpts (Solar Auxilia, but also Elysians and DKoK) have generally been more petit than GWs own imperial guard and guard-equivalent minis, that size difference is even more pronounced if you put the DKOK guys up next to some of the more recent sculpts (Inquisitor Greyfax especially, but also the new Sisters of Battle, and IIRC some of the Genestealer Cultists are pretty beefy too.

Also worth mentioning is that 28mm HH feels like a largely "dead" game at this point thats coasting by on minimal support. Adeptus Titanicus, on the other hand, is branded as a Horus Heresy game and is getting more regular and more consistent support. I wonder if there isn't possibly room for both a larger 28mm-ish game and a smaller epic/warmaster scale game equivalents for AoS in the same way. Alternatively, its possible that the 28mm HH game may eventually be phased out and replaced by the return of Epic as a Horus Heresy title via AT, but for now that seems a bit less likely.

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Voss wrote:
Part of what has people so excited is being able to use their old stuff, and to see those model lines expanded.

those people will be disappointed anyway

I know that there are some that claim that GW is aware that 3D printing will take over miniature making in 2-3 years and therefore are just planning to revive the Old World to create a Franchise, make some expensive hardcovers (sell STL Files) and call it a day with the community being happy because they can play Fantasy Battles again, use their old stuff and print shiny new renders created by GW

if GW would have something like this in mind, creating just rules to let people play with their old models, they would have already done so (because a re-print of an old rulebook, together with combined army books just to get things started can be done within a year)

GW don't spend money to make the old crowed happy, the spend money to earn more money and the get new people in buying their all their stuff

the hint with the square base was just that, a hint to the old world easily done by the one thing that is still unique (as any model or logo could have been for AoS as well)

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