So we have already had new death guard and thousand sons codexes. We only need the new CSM codex, which is one codex, but the recent press release on Warhammer community gives the impression we are getting more than one codex
“Eagle-eyed heretics** may note the lack of codexes for the Traitor Legions. Do not despair, as 2022 will be a bumper year for warp-based shenanigans.”
Is this setting is up for disappointment and it just means demons and CSM or does BUMPER YEAR promise more? EC AND WE? Or a curve ball
mrFickle wrote: So we have already had new death guard and thousand sons codexes. We only need the new CSM codex, which is one codex, but the recent press release on Warhammer community gives the impression we are getting more than one codex
“Eagle-eyed heretics** may note the lack of codexes for the Traitor Legions. Do not despair, as 2022 will be a bumper year for warp-based shenanigans.”
Is this setting is up for disappointment and it just means demons and CSM or does BUMPER YEAR promise more? EC AND WE? Or a curve ball
Or just a load of new models…??
There's rumors floating around for a ton of mutant cultists, possessed and other things for presumably reputable rumormongers that predicted a lot of stuff that came true.
There is a rumour from a fairly credible source about WE. The same source is less willing to endorse EC to the same degree... But it seems like he wants to tell us it's coming too.
We know from the codex roadmap that neither CSM nor Daemons are coming this year.
I suspect the delay on CSM has to do with big things coming for chaos in 2022.
Rumors are pointing towards a World Eaters codex, and if World Eaters, Death Guard, and Thousand Sons all get Codexes, then it stands to reason that Emperor's Children will get a Codex too.
That said, by the time EC get a Codex, it'll be right before 10th edition, and then GW will likely do what they did with Space Marines and turn the EC, WE, DG, and TS into Supplements attached to the CSM Codex. So, yeah, don't hold your breath.
The rumors are also suggesting plenty of older kits are going to get updated, like Bikers and Possessed, and the Warpsmith moved from resin to plastic. Chosen were also mentioned, which we haven't seen since 6th edition's Dark Vengeance.
Still, we're talking about releases that aren't going to hit the field till 2022 at the earliest. It's going to be a looooooong wait. But, hey, it's already been a pretty long wait. So, wait some more we shall.
keep in mind we have 3 chaos armies that need an update as chaos knights are a thing, CSMs, Chaos deamons and chaos knights all getting new stuff would def be a "bumper year" also it's possiable that GW will do the same thing with CSMs as they've done with Marines and EVERY chaos marine subfaction gets a supplement. over all impossiable to say we'll have to wait and see. I would however advise to rememebr that hope is the first step on the road to dissappointment. Keep your expectations low and you'll not be dissappointed, expect a CSM codex, and a deamons codex, maybe with a token new mini (seems everyone is getting at least a character update this time around as only death guard haven't gotten SOMETHING new *considers the massive PA release for admech their new stuff*) and nothing more. if we get more then you'll be pleasently suprised
drbored wrote: Still, we're talking about releases that aren't going to hit the field till 2022 at the earliest. It's going to be a looooooong wait. But, hey, it's already been a pretty long wait. So, wait some more we shall.
There are credible rumours indicating that WE are coming. If so, I really doubt we'll see EC this edition.
PenitentJake wrote: The same source is less willing to endorse EC to the same degree... But it seems like he wants to tell us it's coming too.
Nah. His language had been ambiguous but he outright told me about a week ago that he'd heard nothing about EC, only WE and CSM.
Most likely scenario in my mind is WE + CSM + a Traitor Legions supplement. There's too much content from F&F to put into a single book and they'll want to sell us more rules. No Noise Marines until 10th for me it looks like.
My guess, which qualifies as wild speculation, I would expect a Chaos Space Marines codex with Traitor Legion supplements for the 7 legions other than Thousand Sons and Death Guard. GW has stripped all the non-vehicle units (other than Chaos Lord and Sorcerer) from both of those codexes, so having them as supplements to refer back to the vehicles in common (which often have additional rules on them regardless) would be an exercise in silliness.
Instead, they can add/update a bunch of models to the range in general while rolling out kits with the release of each of the supplements. It may be a kit or two that is somewhat themed to the supplement or a specific unit.
For example: Codex Supplement World Eaters could be released with new Berserkers (for all CSM) and Red Butcher Terminators (World Eaters specific unit).
Still, it might be asking for a bit much for GW to put out 7+ new kits for Chaos Space Marines. It's not like they are Adeptus Astartes
alextroy wrote: My guess, which qualifies as wild speculation, I would expect a Chaos Space Marines codex with Traitor Legion supplements for the 7 legions other than Thousand Sons and Death Guard. GW has stripped all the non-vehicle units (other than Chaos Lord and Sorcerer) from both of those codexes, so having them as supplements to refer back to the vehicles in common (which often have additional rules on them regardless) would be an exercise in silliness.
Instead, they can add/update a bunch of models to the range in general while rolling out kits with the release of each of the supplements. It may be a kit or two that is somewhat themed to the supplement or a specific unit.
For example: Codex Supplement World Eaters could be released with new Berserkers (for all CSM) and Red Butcher Terminators (World Eaters specific unit).
Still, it might be asking for a bit much for GW to put out 7+ new kits for Chaos Space Marines. It's not like they are Adeptus Astartes
Actually, if the leaks are correct, it's 10 new kits, just for CSM. World Eaters will add more.
supplements might seem like a lot but consider, the space marine codex release amounted to 2 books and a handfull of models drawn out over time. Let's say they give CSMs a release of a codex and a supplement for each legion, the release would likely be drawn out over a 6 month time period and look something like this
Month 1- Codex, supplement Black Legion. Black Legion Upgrade kit, black Legion character and a new CSM general kit.
Month 2: Codex Supplement World Eaters and Codex Supplement Iron Wariors. - consists of new Khorne Bezerkers, Bezerker Terminators (WE exclusive) A Iron Warriors Special character. an iuron warriors upgrade kit, And a new kit
Month 3: Codex Supplement Emperor's Children and supplement Night Lords - new noise Marines, new noise terminators, upgrade kit for Night Lords and a new kit.
So you'd proably be looking at a new special character for each legion, new noise marines and Bezerkers, and MAYBE an upgrade kit for each legion, plus anything else.
This of course if if GW did a space marine supplements style approuch to them.
Marshal Loss wrote: There are credible rumours indicating that WE are coming. If so, I really doubt we'll see EC this edition.
PenitentJake wrote: The same source is less willing to endorse EC to the same degree... But it seems like he wants to tell us it's coming too.
Nah. His language had been ambiguous but he outright told me about a week ago that he'd heard nothing about EC, only WE and CSM.
Most likely scenario in my mind is WE + CSM + a Traitor Legions supplement. There's too much content from F&F to put into a single book and they'll want to sell us more rules. No Noise Marines until 10th for me it looks like.
Was really hoping for EC this edition. I'll still take WE though.
The supplement system only works if each subfaction has a good amount of content behind it. Ultramarines, Black Templars (including the new stuff), and the various non-Codex Astartes Chapters work because they have significant range support. The only Chaos Legion that would have any chance at a good value supplement would be Black Legion but even then, 2 characters does not a supplement make.
I don't want supplement books for all the non-Cult Legions. A single Legion book, ok sure, but one for each? And then, what, one for each Renegades as well? Who's lining up to buy Codex: Flawless Host?
Gert wrote: Death Guard got a new Terminator character and a terrain piece. Every faction so far has got at least one thing.
Except Dark Eldar.
Their "new" model had already been released months prior in a Battle Box.
What BrianDavion outlined above would be great, I'd leap at an EC supplement with NMs + NM Termies, but I can't see WE and EC going the supplement route. DG was a phenomenally successful release and Primarchs are a massive deal, they dominate and headline any release, and GW won't want e.g. new Berzerkers + Angron etc to take the limelight away from everything else.
I don't know whether they'll go supplements for the other TLs, I think a supplement: traitor legions is more likely, but maybe the popularity of the SM supplements will convince them to give us the same treatment.
Gert wrote: The supplement system only works if each subfaction has a good amount of content behind it. Ultramarines, Black Templars (including the new stuff), and the various non-Codex Astartes Chapters work because they have significant range support. The only Chaos Legion that would have any chance at a good value supplement would be Black Legion but even then, 2 characters does not a supplement make.
Or you could repurpose existing model to allow them to be in special force orgs per army
Night lords Raptors as troops, Iron warriors havocs as troops, etc.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't want supplement books for all the non-Cult Legions. A single Legion book, ok sure, but one for each? And then, what, one for each Renegades as well? Who's lining up to buy Codex: Flawless Host?
Agreed. The Legions just don't have enough unique units to warrant their own supplements. A Traitor Legions supplement would be more than enough.
VladimirHerzog wrote:
Gert wrote: The supplement system only works if each subfaction has a good amount of content behind it. Ultramarines, Black Templars (including the new stuff), and the various non-Codex Astartes Chapters work because they have significant range support. The only Chaos Legion that would have any chance at a good value supplement would be Black Legion but even then, 2 characters does not a supplement make.
Or you could repurpose existing model to allow them to be in special force orgs per army
Night lords Raptors as troops, Iron warriors havocs as troops, etc.
They could do that with a single line in each Legion's rules. Same as they did in Traitor Legions.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Agreed. The Legions just don't have enough unique units to warrant their own supplements. A Traitor Legions supplement would be more than enough.
I'm honestly still surprised that White Scars, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Salamanders and even Ultramarines have their own supplements. I'd've liked a "Codex: First Founding" book that had for all'a them, then a second book for all the interesting non-First Founding Chapters (Raptors, Space Sharks, Red Scorps, Blood Ravens, Minotaurs, etc.).
But we got what we got. Let's hope they don't repeat that with Chaos. I don't think we need another 5 books (on top of DG/1KS/WE/EC).
I imagine WE will be released Q1 2022. EC would probably drop Q2 2022. Then with basically every traitor codex getting a primarch so far we might see a standalone AL and IW codex with their traitor primarchs getting models.
Then once that's done we'll get generic CSM and Daemons.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Agreed. The Legions just don't have enough unique units to warrant their own supplements. A Traitor Legions supplement would be more than enough.
I'm honestly still surprised that White Scars, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Salamanders and even Ultramarines have their own supplements. I'd've liked a "Codex: First Founding" book that had for all'a them, then a second book for all the interesting non-First Founding Chapters (Raptors, Space Sharks, Red Scorps, Blood Ravens, Minotaurs, etc.).
But we got what we got. Let's hope they don't repeat that with Chaos. I don't think we need another 5 books (on top of DG/1KS/WE/EC).
Because $$$$, of course. And agreed again, we don't need another 5 books clogging up the release schedule. I don't want to see a bunch of "GW is only doing CSM stuff!" threads like we had with loyalists. All of those extra CSM books would just mean everyone else waiting even longer for their own books.
PenitentJake wrote: There is a rumour from a fairly credible source about WE. The same source is less willing to endorse EC to the same degree... But it seems like he wants to tell us it's coming too.
We know from the codex roadmap that neither CSM nor Daemons are coming this year.
I suspect the delay on CSM has to do with big things coming for chaos in 2022.
PenitentJake wrote: There is a rumour from a fairly credible source about WE. The same source is less willing to endorse EC to the same degree... But it seems like he wants to tell us it's coming too.
We know from the codex roadmap that neither CSM nor Daemons are coming this year.
I suspect the delay on CSM has to do with big things coming for chaos in 2022.
Rumours have said we and ec for years.
Any moment now.
Years before stormcast and new greater daemons we heard rumors. There's stuff done and line up for two years, at least.
Gert wrote: The supplement system only works if each subfaction has a good amount of content behind it. Ultramarines, Black Templars (including the new stuff), and the various non-Codex Astartes Chapters work because they have significant range support. The only Chaos Legion that would have any chance at a good value supplement would be Black Legion but even then, 2 characters does not a supplement make.
Like salamanders(2 characters, upgrade sprue), iron hands(1,1) and Ravenguard(1, 1) then? Big significant range support there.
PenitentJake wrote: There is a rumour from a fairly credible source about WE. The same source is less willing to endorse EC to the same degree... But it seems like he wants to tell us it's coming too.
We know from the codex roadmap that neither CSM nor Daemons are coming this year.
I suspect the delay on CSM has to do with big things coming for chaos in 2022.
Rumours have said we and ec for years.
Any moment now.
Years before stormcast and new greater daemons we heard rumors. There's stuff done and line up for two years, at least.
Not rumours as in "sometime". Rumour as in "this year"and "this edition".
Basically same rumour as now. Nothing changed on rumours front.
Guy that said primaris before they came said angron and russ coming. Still waiting (well dreading. Not fan of primarch appearing in tiny insignificant skirmishes)
Where have all the credible rumours referenced in this thread come from?
Automatically Appended Next Post: It wouldn’t surprise me if we got a curve ball like AL, to give us more but infuriate is by not giving us what we want
Gert wrote: The supplement system only works if each subfaction has a good amount of content behind it. Ultramarines, Black Templars (including the new stuff), and the various non-Codex Astartes Chapters work because they have significant range support. The only Chaos Legion that would have any chance at a good value supplement would be Black Legion but even then, 2 characters does not a supplement make.
Like salamanders(2 characters, upgrade sprue), iron hands(1,1) and Ravenguard(1, 1) then? Big significant range support there.
and in the case of iron hands they didn't have a special character AT ALL before the supplement. supplement books work if there is sufficant intreast in a faction and it's subfactions to be worth dedicating books to the Myrid subfactions. I think CSMs are the one faction other then loyalists who could manage this
Or you could repurpose existing model to allow them to be in special force orgs per army
Night lords Raptors as troops, Iron warriors havocs as troops, etc.
Which doesn't matter in 9th Ed because both of these units will have <CORE> and detachments allow players to take armies consisting of basically any Force Org slots.
Like salamanders(2 characters, upgrade sprue), iron hands(1,1) and Ravenguard(1, 1) then? Big significant range support there.
You didn't read what I said. Non-Codex Chapters was so obviously a reference to the Angels, Wolves and Deathwatch which all have enough unique units and special characters that make their supplements worth the cost compared to every other Chapter bar the Ultramarines.
and in the case of iron hands they didn't have a special character AT ALL before the supplement. supplement books work if there is sufficant intreast in a faction and it's subfactions to be worth dedicating books to the Myrid subfactions. I think CSMs are the one faction other then loyalists who could manage this
While I agree that CSM could manage it, I don't think it would be done in either a competent or meaningful way. There comes a point where just adding units for the sake of giving a faction more options becomes obsolete. What can you add to Word Bearers that would be any different from say a Dark Apostle or Cultists? Or Iron Warriors? The unique units in 30k work (or often don't work) because the system allows for more options and rules differences. The downside of this is that some units are amazing, like Iron Havocs, and others are trash, like SoH Reavers. Same goes for characters.
You can always go further, and you wouldn't even have to take change the unit tag.
Either make specific patrols/battalions for subfaction. And give the battalions extensive special rules. Something like DE get only with more rules, but also more restrictions
Or you could link it to specific characters. If you take a 1-2 masters of possessions and 1-3 sorcerers, you can take demons in your army and they don't break your armies version of chapter tactics. And they wouldn't even have to be too specific or conflict with other sub faction rules. Lets say most csm army could make an infiltration force, but it would require some limitations in the form of vehicles and units a player could take. But it could be an IW or AL force.
Plus the rules could over lap. An infiltration force , a generic csm detachment, could also fullfil the requirmernts for a WB cultists swarm or an AL insartion force. This way the same special csm detachment could look and play different depending on which subfaction is being played.
Or you could repurpose existing model to allow them to be in special force orgs per army
Night lords Raptors as troops, Iron warriors havocs as troops, etc.
Which doesn't matter in 9th Ed because both of these units will have <CORE> and detachments allow players to take armies consisting of basically any Force Org slots.
Like salamanders(2 characters, upgrade sprue), iron hands(1,1) and Ravenguard(1, 1) then? Big significant range support there.
You didn't read what I said. Non-Codex Chapters was so obviously a reference to the Angels, Wolves and Deathwatch which all have enough unique units and special characters that make their supplements worth the cost compared to every other Chapter bar the Ultramarines.
and in the case of iron hands they didn't have a special character AT ALL before the supplement. supplement books work if there is sufficant intreast in a faction and it's subfactions to be worth dedicating books to the Myrid subfactions. I think CSMs are the one faction other then loyalists who could manage this
While I agree that CSM could manage it, I don't think it would be done in either a competent or meaningful way. There comes a point where just adding units for the sake of giving a faction more options becomes obsolete. What can you add to Word Bearers that would be any different from say a Dark Apostle or Cultists? Or Iron Warriors? The unique units in 30k work (or often don't work) because the system allows for more options and rules differences. The downside of this is that some units are amazing, like Iron Havocs, and others are trash, like SoH Reavers. Same goes for characters.
you don't need much, a single special character is fine, the rules etc and ways to use it are what makes it stand out, also I bought all the loyalist codices in part because it gave some good lore (granted the 9E supplements just sucked for that as much as all the other 9e books but...)
What about traitor guard? People were getting excited for that after the Blackstone release. A bumper year for chaos could mean a lot of different things.
Gert wrote: The supplement system only works if each subfaction has a good amount of content behind it. Ultramarines, Black Templars (including the new stuff), and the various non-Codex Astartes Chapters work because they have significant range support. The only Chaos Legion that would have any chance at a good value supplement would be Black Legion but even then, 2 characters does not a supplement make.
Like salamanders(2 characters, upgrade sprue), iron hands(1,1) and Ravenguard(1, 1) then? Big significant range support there.
and in the case of iron hands they didn't have a special character AT ALL before the supplement. supplement books work if there is sufficant intreast in a faction and it's subfactions to be worth dedicating books to the Myrid subfactions. I think CSMs are the one faction other then loyalists who could manage this
And ultimately supplements comes if GW wants to make them. If it needs material then GW will write something. Obviously tons of models for subfaction isn't needed.
On plus side maybe iron warriors etc gets at least upgrade sprue if GW goes that route.
You didn't read what I said. Non-Codex Chapters was so obviously a reference to the Angels, Wolves and Deathwatch which all have enough unique units and special characters that make their supplements worth the cost compared to every other Chapter bar the Ultramarines.
"The supplement system only works if each subfaction has a good amount of content behind it."
each subfaction...
Each subfaction obviously covers...well EACH subfaction. So not just wolves, blood angels etc. Salamanders, raven guard etc also got supplement and with just 2-3 kits for them.
It was done for loyalists. No reason whatsoever GW couldn't give same treatment to chaos. Apart from chaos not being the posterboys of the game.
macluvin wrote: Six months to 18 months until we get 2w CSM? Whoo! And then 10-20 months until new edition. Welcome to space marine 2.0 codex land XD
Dont be so pessimistic. We did get in 6th edition if I remember correct the first codex. It was really shiny for a couple of months before the next codexes just made it bad. So at least one time they have made CSM codex first and somehow it was viable for even shorter time period. But lets look at it positively it was not released right before the ned edition that time
I'm betting on WBs and IW. Contrary to what everyone wants and expects. The two least wanted legions will get codexes. Because GW likes parity. WBs are the opposite but equals to BTs, and IWs are the equal but opposite to IHs.
Iron Warriors are the contempories of the Imperial Fists (offensive vs defensive seige experts), Iron Hands to the Emperor's Children (both craftsmen, form vs function).
"The supplement system only works if each subfaction has a good amount of content behind it."
each subfaction...
Each subfaction obviously covers...well EACH subfaction. So not just wolves, blood angels etc. Salamanders, raven guard etc also got supplement and with just 2-3 kits for them.
It was done for loyalists. No reason whatsoever GW couldn't give same treatment to chaos. Apart from chaos not being the posterboys of the game.
And then you didn't read the rest of the post where I outlined which specific subfactions work as a supplement. Just because Scars, Hands, Ravens, and Fists got supplements doesn't mean they were a good idea.
1 or 2 Characters isn't enough to justify a £25 book whereas 8 Characters and 6 units is a different matter.
Difference is that Scars, Hands, Ravens, etc all could have been done better.
I have zero issue with CSM getting their own "Legion books" covering BL, IW, NL, AL, WB, and then a last book covering Renegades.
But it can't just be "Here's a character, relics, and stratagems! Enjoy!". Giving them at minimum a unique unit should be done. If that unit is just something made via an existing kit+upgrade frame? Nothing wrong with that!
I, personally, was a fan of the SM supplements. I bought the Raven Guard one. The biggest disappointment I had was the lack of a bodyguard unit for Shrike(the only other Primaris Chapter Master aside from Calgar with a model) and that they did not take the opportunity to add a "unique loadout" for the Lieutenants ala the Wolves and the Dark Angels. RG could have stood getting an Eliminator Lieutenant, IF could have gotten an Aggressor, etc.
World Eaters and Emperors Children deserve their own codexes if Death Guard/Thousand Sons got them, and Black Legion, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, and Iron Warriors should get their own codex supplements like the loyalist chapters did.
That being said, I don't entirely understand the logic of making TS and DG (and Grey Knights) full codexes when Deathwatch, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Black Templars are supplements. DW/SW/BA/DA/BT have their own fair few special characters, unique units, and special wargear, etc. that significantly re-characterize their respective armies, at least as many as Thousand Sons do (if not more) and probably not far off from DG/GK. It feels like they don't have a well-defined standard as to what qualifies a codex supplement vs a codex, or if they do I'm not understanding it.
Simplest answer is that they didn't want to republish the material so many times for those supplements as "full books"...and they wanted to make it easy for Chapter-hopping.
Loyalists share the same 90% of their Codex units. GW only has to update 1 book with FAQ's and Errata's with the supplement system rather rather 5. In theory it's sound, in practice less so for anything that has less than 5 unique options IMO.
Gert wrote: Unless the supplement is similar to Traitor Legions where there was actually content and not just 1 unit, it's not going to be worth it.
worth it to who? you? some people will happily buy a book that gives more fluff to iron warriors, gives unique crusade rules, and unique stratigiums etc.
worth it to who? you? some people will happily buy a book that gives more fluff to iron warriors, gives unique crusade rules, and unique stratigiums etc.
"worth it" is entirely up to the purchaser.
Well yeah but that would hardly be helpful in the interest of discussion would it?
And are you telling me you'd be fine paying the cost of a full Codex for one Character, reprinted PA content and Crusade rules?
I like background and stories but the supplements I've read offer naff all in the way the old Codexes do.
I'm hearing "2022 will be a bumper year for Chaos!" as "oh, yeah, anyone playing any of the other seven Legions we couldn't be bothered to update, yeah, they still exist, well, uh, we'll have to do a Codex for you eventually, we're aware you can't really play the game right now because all your stuff is terrible, yeah, um, hope you buy a new army in the next year while waiting for us to get around to letting you participate again?"
(Disclaimer: Yes, I'm being petty, hyperbolic, sour, conflating a bunch of arguments, and ascribing malice to an uncaring universe, I know.)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
VladimirHerzog wrote: Or maybe its just because the 4 gods have very different fighting styles so full codexes made more difference than for the loyalists
Eh. They're different Codexes because they have different models, and they have different models because GW made a deliberate decision to make them different Codexes. I don't think they "had to" be more different from the loyalists for any fluff or gameplay reason.
worth it to who? you? some people will happily buy a book that gives more fluff to iron warriors, gives unique crusade rules, and unique stratigiums etc.
"worth it" is entirely up to the purchaser.
Well yeah but that would hardly be helpful in the interest of discussion would it?
And are you telling me you'd be fine paying the cost of a full Codex for one Character, reprinted PA content and Crusade rules?
I like background and stories but the supplements I've read offer naff all in the way the old Codexes do.
I bought all of the space marine supplements. obviously if it was just reprinted PA stuff I'd be unhappy, but let's crack open a codex supplement, (in this case we'll go with dark angels as it was the first 9th edition supplement I grabbed) go over whats in it and try to detirmine what a CSM supplement would look like.
the first half dozen pages discuss history and mention a liiitle bit about orginization, mostly discussing some characters, so that's 6 pages of background. then the rock gets detailed, this would proably be in a CSM equivilant a page detailing the "homeworld" of the traitor legion. likely touching on what happened to their original homeworld and detailing the deamon world they make their home on.
you then get a warzone page and a few more pages discussing special characters and orginization, for chaos marines this could detail various other warbands etc.
I'm a big fluff bunny so if the fluff is good, it's worth it to me. then we move onto rules. assuming they mostly just reprinted the PA stuff that's some strats relics etc. but new would be a legion specific set of psyker spells. you'd get crusade rules, crusade relics etc.
so yeah unless the psyker powers are insanely good, or they do a buncha new strats etc, the power gamers won't care about it, but the fluff bunnies will.
Fergie0044 wrote: What about traitor guard? People were getting excited for that after the Blackstone release. A bumper year for chaos could mean a lot of different things.
That would be quite nice, they've already got the sculpts done so it's be great to see those in stock again.
The rumours listed BSF-style renegade guard alongside BSF-style cultists for CSM in 2022. Not sure why CSM would get both. Might be a precursor to an eventual LATD-style release in the (distant?) future
It certainly would be surprising if they became standard troop choices wouldn't it? But hey if they do then it might incentivize them to make CSM a good troop choice compared to the cheap options available. One can hope.
Marshal Loss wrote: The rumours listed BSF-style renegade guard alongside BSF-style cultists for CSM in 2022. Not sure why CSM would get both. Might be a precursor to an eventual LATD-style release in the (distant?) future
Traitor Guard could be a Core unit while Cultists aren't?
There's a couple of different routes they could go, given the new stuff we've seen in 40k so far. Could also be Traitor Guard get their own "traits" while Cultists get nothing.
I bought all of the space marine supplements. obviously if it was just reprinted PA stuff I'd be unhappy, but let's crack open a codex supplement, (in this case we'll go with dark angels as it was the first 9th edition supplement I grabbed) go over whats in it and try to detirmine what a CSM supplement would look like.
the first half dozen pages discuss history and mention a liiitle bit about orginization, mostly discussing some characters, so that's 6 pages of background. then the rock gets detailed, this would proably be in a CSM equivilant a page detailing the "homeworld" of the traitor legion. likely touching on what happened to their original homeworld and detailing the deamon world they make their home on.
you then get a warzone page and a few more pages discussing special characters and orginization, for chaos marines this could detail various other warbands etc.
I'm a big fluff bunny so if the fluff is good, it's worth it to me. then we move onto rules. assuming they mostly just reprinted the PA stuff that's some strats relics etc. but new would be a legion specific set of psyker spells. you'd get crusade rules, crusade relics etc.
so yeah unless the psyker powers are insanely good, or they do a buncha new strats etc, the power gamers won't care about it, but the fluff bunnies will.
Dark Angels also have 24 Characters/Unique Units in addition to all of this. Blood Angels have 19, Wolves have 30, Deathwatch have 13, and Ultramarines have 12.
Its great that you like background stuff, I do too, but I'm also not paying £20-25 for a Codex Supplement that is essentially a background book. Currently, I have Black Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Emperor's Children forces, and I have future plans to branch out into others like Red Corsairs and possibly Night Lords. I'm not looking to buy a book for every single one of these factions on top of a Codex to get no substantial rules content.
I'm not saying each Legion should get 10+ new things, I'm instead saying that one book, in a similar vein to Traitor Legions, would cover all the non-marked Legions while also being good value for money. I would even like to see Renegade Chapters get the same thing. But individual supplements for each Legion? I'm firmly against that idea.
Marshal Loss wrote: The rumours listed BSF-style renegade guard alongside BSF-style cultists for CSM in 2022. Not sure why CSM would get both. Might be a precursor to an eventual LATD-style release in the (distant?) future
Traitor Guard could be a Core unit while Cultists aren't?
There's a couple of different routes they could go, given the new stuff we've seen in 40k so far. Could also be Traitor Guard get their own "traits" while Cultists get nothing.
Maybe, but neither Tzaangors nor Cultists in the TS book are Core/neither Poxwalkers nor Cultists in the DG book are Core, which I think they'll save for actual marines. Renegade Guard getting access to the trait(s) like Tzaangor get access to the 5+ invul sounds more plausible.
Just feels weird CSM getting both when they both fill, presumably, very similar roles as inexpensive chaff to compliment your more expensive marines (which GW have been trying to push people to take). Not what I would have predicted at all. But if these rumours are right it's a big LATD-style addition to the CSM book, so as you say there's quite a few ways this could go. As a guy with a WB army I'm certainly not opposed to their inclusion.
Marshal Loss wrote: The rumours listed BSF-style renegade guard alongside BSF-style cultists for CSM in 2022. Not sure why CSM would get both. Might be a precursor to an eventual LATD-style release in the (distant?) future
Traitor Guard could be a Core unit while Cultists aren't?
There's a couple of different routes they could go, given the new stuff we've seen in 40k so far. Could also be Traitor Guard get their own "traits" while Cultists get nothing.
Maybe, but neither Tzaangors nor Cultists in the TS book are Core/neither Poxwalkers nor Cultists in the DG book are Core, which I think they'll save for actual marines. Renegade Guard getting access to the trait(s) like Tzaangor get access to the 5+ invul sounds more plausible.
Just feels weird CSM getting both when they both fill, presumably, very similar roles as inexpensive chaff to compliment your more expensive marines (which GW have been trying to push people to take). Not what I would have predicted at all. But if these rumours are right it's a big LATD-style addition to the CSM book, so as you say there's quite a few ways this could go. As a guy with a WB army I'm certainly not opposed to their inclusion.
My guess? Renegade Guard will get obsec, Cultists won't. Renegade Guard will probably have slightly better stats, some stratagems that work on them, and maybe benefit from Legion traits or whatever our mono-faction bonus is. Basically they will be like Poxwalkers and Tzaangors are in their respective Legions: better chaff than Cultists, but still chaff. Cultists will just be cheap, nothing more.
Hhmmm, I love the idea of World Eaters. Who doesn't? I suspect there are tons of chaos players who would absolutely love world eaters as a properly developed faction on its own. I mean, who doesn't love to scream "Blood for the blood god !!!!!!"
And who doesn't love Kharn.
But anyway, this is all in 2022 no matter what the rumors say and no matter what comes true, so in the meantime, I am going to pick up and start playing thousand sons, because I refuse to play 1 Wound CSM from now until next year.
It'd be cool of Cultists didn't have ObSec, could perform actions, you could only bring as many as you bring CSM units, but they don't take up a troops slot.
Let you bring a real big rabble of nonsense chaff.
Marshal Loss wrote: The rumours listed BSF-style renegade guard alongside BSF-style cultists for CSM in 2022. Not sure why CSM would get both. Might be a precursor to an eventual LATD-style release in the (distant?) future
Traitor Guard could be a Core unit while Cultists aren't?
There's a couple of different routes they could go, given the new stuff we've seen in 40k so far. Could also be Traitor Guard get their own "traits" while Cultists get nothing.
Maybe, but neither Tzaangors nor Cultists in the TS book are Core/neither Poxwalkers nor Cultists in the DG book are Core, which I think they'll save for actual marines. Renegade Guard getting access to the trait(s) like Tzaangor get access to the 5+ invul sounds more plausible.
Just feels weird CSM getting both when they both fill, presumably, very similar roles as inexpensive chaff to compliment your more expensive marines (which GW have been trying to push people to take). Not what I would have predicted at all. But if these rumours are right it's a big LATD-style addition to the CSM book, so as you say there's quite a few ways this could go. As a guy with a WB army I'm certainly not opposed to their inclusion.
My guess? Renegade Guard will get obsec, Cultists won't. Renegade Guard will probably have slightly better stats, some stratagems that work on them, and maybe benefit from Legion traits or whatever our mono-faction bonus is. Basically they will be like Poxwalkers and Tzaangors are in their respective Legions: better chaff than Cultists, but still chaff. Cultists will just be cheap, nothing more.
Ah, I'd forgotten about Tzaangors/Poxwalkers getting obsec - good call.
macluvin wrote: Six months to 18 months until we get 2w CSM? Whoo! And then 10-20 months until new edition. Welcome to space marine 2.0 codex land XD
Well Space Marines have had two complete full updates since the last time CSM had an actual update. I'm just hoping this next codex is an actual update, and not just CSM 8.4.
It wouldn't surprise me if space marines got an update of some sort within 6 months of CSM finally getting an actual codex for 9th.
Shame it seems like EC won't get their own book, but getting an angron book would be pretty badass.
Galas wrote: If It can make a Renegade khornate army ala Blood pact Im sold.
Yeah, I'm really hoping that the Lost and The Damned stuff can be run by itself, with no Astartes. Probably the closest thing to R&H we'll be getting this edition.
I'm also wondering what kind of rework Chosen will be getting with those new models.
However, since it is in the warp, it will be the year 2525.
Seems legit.
But yeah, all we can do is hope. It's just like GW to start a trend and then abandon it halfway through. I wouldn't be surprised if Thousand Sons and Death Guard were the test, and it's likely that work on Angron/Fulgrim/Noise Marines/Khorne Berzerkers didn't start until they had determined that giving WE/EC their own Codexes would be worth it.
Now we just hope they do it right. Honestly, I wouldn't mind the Supplement treatment, since it would allow WE/EC to take more of the regular Chaos Marine stuff, like possessed and bikers that Death Guard and Thousand Sons have to ally in to get.
If the WE and EC books aren't supplements, then they can kiss goodbye to a bunch of units that don't have specific WE/EC kits. Only a few of those survived for DG/1KS.
So unless they release a Slaaneshi Havoc or Khorne Biker kit, expect those to go the way the dodo.
If the WE and EC books aren't supplements, then they can kiss goodbye to a bunch of units that don't have specific WE/EC kits. Only a few of those survived for DG/1KS.
So unless they release a Slaaneshi Havoc or Khorne Biker kit, expect those to go the way the dodo.
Not necessarily 'go the way of the dodo' since generic Chaos Marines will still be able to take them, and plenty of people play Undivided as well (still waiting on those 2 wounds)
And the flip side is that if they go that route, the expectation is that there'd be tons of Khorne and Slaanesh centric units to fill out the new Codexes.
BrianDavion wrote: rememebr not all khorneite or slaanishi chaos warbands are emperor's children or world eaters.
It's true, but one of the big hopes of having a WE Codex is to get Angron and new Khorne Berzerkers, along with Khorne-themed terminators and other beasts and units.
Same thing for EC and Fulgrim, Noise Marines, and a buttload of other slaanesh-themed things.
Having a supplement that just gives some extra slaanesh/khorne rules to the undivided Chaos Marines would be a kick in the nads for making us wait this long for more traitor primarchs and then not giving us a thing.
If the WE and EC books aren't supplements, then they can kiss goodbye to a bunch of units that don't have specific WE/EC kits. Only a few of those survived for DG/1KS.
So unless they release a Slaaneshi Havoc or Khorne Biker kit, expect those to go the way the dodo.
Shoot I hope not, having WE be a stand alone army but lose access to most of the general CSM models would be a giant gut punch.
BrianDavion wrote: rememebr not all khorneite or slaanishi chaos warbands are emperor's children or world eaters.
And the practical difference of that is what, exactly? Remember, Marks are just Keywords now. They have no inherent rules.
Whereas a "World Eater Biker" unit would be something different, as opposed to a CSM Biker unit that has a extra keyword.
The Red Hobbit wrote: Shoot I hope not, having WE be a stand alone army but lose access to most of the general CSM models would be a giant gut punch.
There might be the odd outlier (Possessed in DG armies, Spawn in Thousand Sons) and obviously (most) vehicles hang about, and they could leave things in (eg. WE could keep Bikers, EC might keep Havocs, or whatever), but we can expect to lose as much (if not more) as we gain.
I mean, my Death Guard Havoc units would love to still exist, as could Daemon Engines that aren't a Defiler or the specific DG ones.
worth it to who? you? some people will happily buy a book that gives more fluff to iron warriors, gives unique crusade rules, and unique stratigiums etc.
"worth it" is entirely up to the purchaser.
Well yeah but that would hardly be helpful in the interest of discussion would it?
And are you telling me you'd be fine paying the cost of a full Codex for one Character, reprinted PA content and Crusade rules? I like background and stories but the supplements I've read offer naff all in the way the old Codexes do.
Didn't you all lap up the 8e Codex Supplements, the PA volumes, and recently the Book of Rust or whatever it was that had the extra DE stuff?
Yes, yes you all did. (or at least enough of you did)
So obviously the answer to your question is: "Yes".
I expect two books … one Chaos Marines and one World Eaters, but that latter one will be weird since the World Eaters splintered, being unable to work together due to RAGE! and falling apart. The return of Angron would give a rallypoint around which to rebuild I suppose, but still kinda weird.
I'd LOVE to see a Traitor Guard book as well, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Wakshaani wrote: I expect two books … one Chaos Marines and one World Eaters, but that latter one will be weird since the World Eaters splintered, being unable to work together due to RAGE! and falling apart. The return of Angron would give a rallypoint around which to rebuild I suppose, but still kinda weird.
I'd LOVE to see a Traitor Guard book as well, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
I really dislike this lore argument. "The World Eaters and Emperor's Children are too fractured to exist as a faction!"
So?
Give us Chaos God specific Codexes. I don't care if the first sentence in the book is "The World Eaters/Emperor's Children no longer exist as a legion, but as hundreds of splintered warbands." What matters is the rules, the models, and the pretty pictures.
And we have rules for Chapters that have that many people... so... why not Legions?
Didn't think there were any that are currently listed as only being a few hundred. Aren't most of the Chapters that got supplements at least close to 1k?
Wakshaani wrote: I expect two books … one Chaos Marines and one World Eaters, but that latter one will be weird since the World Eaters splintered, being unable to work together due to RAGE! and falling apart. The return of Angron would give a rallypoint around which to rebuild I suppose, but still kinda weird.
I'd LOVE to see a Traitor Guard book as well, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
I really dislike this lore argument. "The World Eaters and Emperor's Children are too fractured to exist as a faction!"
So?
Give us Chaos God specific Codexes. I don't care if the first sentence in the book is "The World Eaters/Emperor's Children no longer exist as a legion, but as hundreds of splintered warbands." What matters is the rules, the models, and the pretty pictures.
Right, and I get that, I'm curious to see how they'll handle it since, in-universe, the World Eaters completely broke apart. They're now little roving bands of ten to twenty guys, with a leader that's just the strongest one, frothing madman who just slaughter and … that's it. No mechanics to upkeep anything, no psychers, no tankers, nothing but guys who charge up and chop up.
Which is fine for sticking a unit or two of Berserkers into a force (probably locked into a Rhno cage, which Is then unlocked only long enough to unleash them on someone) … but you can't make an army out of that. A refocus on the World Eaters as following the Chaos God of WAR, with all that entails (grand strategy, logistics, supplies, etc) would be a huge help.
Right now, it's just Kharne and the Berserkers.
And if *that's* all they'll be? They don't need a Codex.
Give 'em a proper Death Guarding, with new models and options, I'm in, but for now? Not so much.
(Ultimately, you'd probably need six books … one for Chaos Marines (with Black Legion being the default) and each of the subfactions getting a page worth of stuff (like the Ork Dex gives each clan half a page) and the four dedicated groups getting a minidex that showcased their stuff. Lastly one for Renegades that'd cover both marines and guard who'd gone rogue but not gone Chaos, either. … But that's certainly asking too much. Alas, alas.)
Right, and I get that, I'm curious to see how they'll handle it since, in-universe, the World Eaters completely broke apart. They're now little roving bands of ten to twenty guys, with a leader that's just the strongest one, frothing madman who just slaughter and … that's it. No mechanics to upkeep anything, no psychers, no tankers, nothing but guys who charge up and chop up.
Which is fine for sticking a unit or two of Berserkers into a force (probably locked into a Rhno cage, which Is then unlocked only long enough to unleash them on someone) … but you can't make an army out of that. A refocus on the World Eaters as following the Chaos God of WAR, with all that entails (grand strategy, logistics, supplies, etc) would be a huge help.
Right now, it's just Kharne and the Berserkers.
And if *that's* all they'll be? They don't need a Codex.
Give 'em a proper Death Guarding, with new models and options, I'm in, but for now? Not so much.
(Ultimately, you'd probably need six books … one for Chaos Marines (with Black Legion being the default) and each of the subfactions getting a page worth of stuff (like the Ork Dex gives each clan half a page) and the four dedicated groups getting a minidex that showcased their stuff. Lastly one for Renegades that'd cover both marines and guard who'd gone rogue but not gone Chaos, either. … But that's certainly asking too much. Alas, alas.)
All of the Legions splintered except for the Death Guard and even they've had their share of separatists. The Thousand Sons were fragmented until Wrath of Magnus just handwaved it as the titular guy handwaving a "let bygones be bygones and lets kill the Wolves."
No doubt any future World Eaters codex will do something similar, except described as akin to the Khorne Daemonkin book where if a Khorne force makes a big enough splash, they inevitably draw more cultists/Berserkers/Daemons to their bloodtide. Kharn will probably succeed in breaking Angorn back into the material plane on Armageddon or something and most of the Legion immediately B-Line for it no matter where they were. Still won't be enough to stop Guilliman wrecking them of course.
Angron's coming back already...the gate on Armageddon is such a problem that some of the Orks and Ork Hunters have been allying to fight daemonic incursions.
Snikrot's been killing any Orks that he finds have been doing so.
Arbitrator wrote: No doubt any future World Eaters codex will do something similar, except described as akin to the Khorne Daemonkin book where if a Khorne force makes a big enough splash, they inevitably draw more cultists/Berserkers/Daemons to their bloodtide. Kharn will probably succeed in breaking Angorn back into the material plane on Armageddon or something and most of the Legion immediately B-Line for it no matter where they were. Still won't be enough to stop Guilliman wrecking them of course.
Agreed, I fully expect them to copy paste the setup with Wrath of Magnus for World Eaters bringing back Angron then at 5 minutes to midnight they'll lose to the Imperium. Final tally will probably be a few dozen nameless Imperial Worlds and maybe 1 or 2 important ones just like the other advance the setting Chaos victories.
I think all the Chaos gods will end up like Nurgle with his Scourge Stars, i.e. with their own little pocket empire in realspace. Gives Chaos a base to wage endless large scale war all across the Imperium, not just mostly in the Eye of Terror or its surroundings.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hhmmm, I love the idea of World Eaters. Who doesn't? I suspect there are tons of chaos players who would absolutely love world eaters as a properly developed faction on its own. I mean, who doesn't love to scream "Blood for the blood god !!!!!!"
And who doesn't love Kharn.
But anyway, this is all in 2022 no matter what the rumors say and no matter what comes true, so in the meantime, I am going to pick up and start playing thousand sons, because I refuse to play 1 Wound CSM from now until next year.
Hell, it would get my xenophile arse interested in a Chaos army.
Iracundus wrote: I think all the Chaos gods will end up like Nurgle with his Scourge Stars, i.e. with their own little pocket empire in realspace. Gives Chaos a base to wage endless large scale war all across the Imperium, not just mostly in the Eye of Terror or its surroundings.
it also gives the IoM a place to go on the offensive against them, something that IMHO has been SORELY missed as it means the chaos vs iom narrative is ALWAYS "chaos attacks"
And we have rules for Chapters that have that many people... so... why not Legions?
Didn't think there were any that are currently listed as only being a few hundred. Aren't most of the Chapters that got supplements at least close to 1k?
All of those Chapters are broken up into companies of 100 or so Astartes. The 8th edition CSM codex says that many World Eaters warbands number in the hundreds. Just a few of those warbands would outnumber a typical loyalist chapter, and they would all be World Eaters, and fight like World Eaters. If a loyalist chapter made up of multiple companies totalling 1000 Astartes warrants their own codex then so does a Legion made up of multiple warbands totalling 10,000 Astartes.
BrianDavion wrote:
Iracundus wrote: I think all the Chaos gods will end up like Nurgle with his Scourge Stars, i.e. with their own little pocket empire in realspace. Gives Chaos a base to wage endless large scale war all across the Imperium, not just mostly in the Eye of Terror or its surroundings.
it also gives the IoM a place to go on the offensive against them, something that IMHO has been SORELY missed as it means the chaos vs iom narrative is ALWAYS "chaos attacks"
Gw needs to explore more of what the Legions are up to in Realspace now that they have greater access to it. They've given us some snippets, but we need more. The 8th edition codex mentions Night Lords building their own Empires in Realspace, I'd like to hear more about that.
Marshal Loss wrote: The rumours listed BSF-style renegade guard alongside BSF-style cultists for CSM in 2022. Not sure why CSM would get both. Might be a precursor to an eventual LATD-style release in the (distant?) future
It could be the case of each traitor legion getting their own supplements, they have cultists worshipping them.
While CSM focuses more on Chaos Renegades and the old Lost and the Damned, and they don't get cultists at all.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Gw needs to explore more of what the Legions are up to in Realspace now that they have greater access to it. They've given us some snippets, but we need more. The 8th edition codex mentions Night Lords building their own Empires in Realspace, I'd like to hear more about that.
Given the fluff in 9th Ed Codices is getting thinner and thinner, they won't have much room to do that.
Of course, this would be a great thing to do with Crusade. The CSM Crusade rules could be about how you slowly carve out your own realspace empire. Of course they won't do that. The CSM Crusade rules will be all about gaining the favour of the Dark Gods and ascending to Daemonhood.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Gw needs to explore more of what the Legions are up to in Realspace now that they have greater access to it. They've given us some snippets, but we need more. The 8th edition codex mentions Night Lords building their own Empires in Realspace, I'd like to hear more about that.
Given the fluff in 9th Ed Codices is getting thinner and thinner, they won't have much room to do that.
Of course, this would be a great thing to do with Crusade. The CSM Crusade rules could be about how you slowly carve out your own realspace empire. Of course they won't do that. The CSM Crusade rules will be all about gaining the favour of the Dark Gods and ascending to Daemonhood.
Yeah. The "Path to Glory" and Chaos Boon Table (isn't that in the Death Guard's crusade rules?), whether your Legion worships the Chaos Gods or not.
It features Nurgle-friendly results such as "Unnatural Speed" and "Gift of Speed".
At least the main thrust of their Crusade stuff is disease creation, accumulation, and dissemination and not "How more Chaos-y are you compared to yesterday? Is you a Daemon Prince yet???" which will be the CSM one for sure.
It features Nurgle-friendly results such as "Unnatural Speed" and "Gift of Speed".
At least the main thrust of their Crusade stuff is disease creation, accumulation, and dissemination and not "How more Chaos-y are you compared to yesterday? Is you a Daemon Prince yet???" which will be the CSM one for sure.
The boon table is copied and pasted in the Thousand Sons Crusade section as well IIRC, just with the names changed, so it'll almost certainly appear in C:CSM as well.
It features Nurgle-friendly results such as "Unnatural Speed" and "Gift of Speed".
At least the main thrust of their Crusade stuff is disease creation, accumulation, and dissemination and not "How more Chaos-y are you compared to yesterday? Is you a Daemon Prince yet???" which will be the CSM one for sure.
The boon table is copied and pasted in the Thousand Sons Crusade section as well IIRC, just with the names changed, so it'll almost certainly appear in C:CSM as well.
Depressing, but I can see that happening. For all the hype of Crusade as THE Narrative system, GW still does nothing to make me want to play it. They sacrificed a lot of other Narrative mission packs and such for this stuff.
My only hope is that their new novel line will start to explore more of the other factions, after they get about 15 books devoted to nothing but primaris marines out of the way. There's a lot of story that can be told, a lot that I'd love to know about the Imperium Nihilus and this whole new universe that they have post-guilliman waking up, but, like most things with 40k, we're getting them painfully slow, in too many expensive books, and focused on the least interesting faction in the narrative: primaris marines.
And we have rules for Chapters that have that many people... so... why not Legions?
Didn't think there were any that are currently listed as only being a few hundred. Aren't most of the Chapters that got supplements at least close to 1k?
Not sure if this is still the case post-Primaris, but the Flesh Tearers had been down to ~400 marines before Devastation of Baal. OK, they're a second Founding Chapter from the Blood Angels, without much additional material, but they have had rules for a few editions.
Popularity (and writer intreast) will drive rules more then numbers. if a writer really develops a passion for a subfaction and it's popular, and in universe is only 500 men strong, it's more likely to get rules then a army of millions that isn't as popular and the writers just aren't as passionate about. exhibit A is space marines
I really hope we don't get so many new Renegade Guard units for two reasons:
1) I want to play CSM for CSM. When they released rules for a limit to Cultists and such with DG and Co. I actually enjoyed this because it meant that we would actually see Marines being played rather than the janked "less means more" lists you usually see. All I want for CSM is exactly what the loyalists got. Just supplememnts for each Legion and a core CSM book that could focus on the Renegades like the RC and such. Then just a single character (established characters like Honsou and Zao Sahaal, than whatever-I-pulled-out-my-backside-this-week character) for each Legion. That's all just to start. Some plastic dual kits for mutilators and oblits, variety Venomcrawlers, new Bikers and Chosen are just extra toppings for me.
2) I really don't think it will mesh well at all outside of Word Beareres and Black Legion with the limitation rules. Remember Tzaangors and Poxwalkers are alternate not-astartes units that also get that restriction. I feel when folks will get hyped for the new models and the concept of a R&H army again, but when they get the codex and realise those previous ideas will be skewed or "different" to what they envisioned there will be backlash.
Just give the Renegade Guard and all those alleged new units with some Mutated Orgyns and all the Guard tanks, give them more mutation and boon-type rules than the order and structure of the Guard then give them their own codex. You'll end up pleasing multiple camps in the long term.
in the Death Guard's crusade rules?), whether your Legion worships the Chaos Gods or not. 