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I bought all of the space marine supplements. obviously if it was just reprinted PA stuff I'd be unhappy, but let's crack open a codex supplement, (in this case we'll go with dark angels as it was the first 9th edition supplement I grabbed) go over whats in it and try to detirmine what a CSM supplement would look like.
the first half dozen pages discuss history and mention a liiitle bit about orginization, mostly discussing some characters, so that's 6 pages of background. then the rock gets detailed, this would proably be in a CSM equivilant a page detailing the "homeworld" of the traitor legion. likely touching on what happened to their original homeworld and detailing the deamon world they make their home on.
you then get a warzone page and a few more pages discussing special characters and orginization, for chaos marines this could detail various other warbands etc.
I'm a big fluff bunny so if the fluff is good, it's worth it to me. then we move onto rules. assuming they mostly just reprinted the PA stuff that's some strats relics etc. but new would be a legion specific set of psyker spells. you'd get crusade rules, crusade relics etc.
so yeah unless the psyker powers are insanely good, or they do a buncha new strats etc, the power gamers won't care about it, but the fluff bunnies will.
Dark Angels also have 24 Characters/Unique Units in addition to all of this. Blood Angels have 19, Wolves have 30, Deathwatch have 13, and Ultramarines have 12.
Its great that you like background stuff, I do too, but I'm also not paying £20-25 for a Codex Supplement that is essentially a background book. Currently, I have Black Legion, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, and Emperor's Children forces, and I have future plans to branch out into others like Red Corsairs and possibly Night Lords. I'm not looking to buy a book for every single one of these factions on top of a Codex to get no substantial rules content.
I'm not saying each Legion should get 10+ new things, I'm instead saying that one book, in a similar vein to Traitor Legions, would cover all the non-marked Legions while also being good value for money. I would even like to see Renegade Chapters get the same thing. But individual supplements for each Legion? I'm firmly against that idea.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/18 12:38:39
Marshal Loss wrote: The rumours listed BSF-style renegade guard alongside BSF-style cultists for CSM in 2022. Not sure why CSM would get both. Might be a precursor to an eventual LATD-style release in the (distant?) future
Traitor Guard could be a Core unit while Cultists aren't?
There's a couple of different routes they could go, given the new stuff we've seen in 40k so far. Could also be Traitor Guard get their own "traits" while Cultists get nothing.
Maybe, but neither Tzaangors nor Cultists in the TS book are Core/neither Poxwalkers nor Cultists in the DG book are Core, which I think they'll save for actual marines. Renegade Guard getting access to the trait(s) like Tzaangor get access to the 5+ invul sounds more plausible.
Just feels weird CSM getting both when they both fill, presumably, very similar roles as inexpensive chaff to compliment your more expensive marines (which GW have been trying to push people to take). Not what I would have predicted at all. But if these rumours are right it's a big LATD-style addition to the CSM book, so as you say there's quite a few ways this could go. As a guy with a WB army I'm certainly not opposed to their inclusion.
Marshal Loss wrote: The rumours listed BSF-style renegade guard alongside BSF-style cultists for CSM in 2022. Not sure why CSM would get both. Might be a precursor to an eventual LATD-style release in the (distant?) future
Traitor Guard could be a Core unit while Cultists aren't?
There's a couple of different routes they could go, given the new stuff we've seen in 40k so far. Could also be Traitor Guard get their own "traits" while Cultists get nothing.
Maybe, but neither Tzaangors nor Cultists in the TS book are Core/neither Poxwalkers nor Cultists in the DG book are Core, which I think they'll save for actual marines. Renegade Guard getting access to the trait(s) like Tzaangor get access to the 5+ invul sounds more plausible.
Just feels weird CSM getting both when they both fill, presumably, very similar roles as inexpensive chaff to compliment your more expensive marines (which GW have been trying to push people to take). Not what I would have predicted at all. But if these rumours are right it's a big LATD-style addition to the CSM book, so as you say there's quite a few ways this could go. As a guy with a WB army I'm certainly not opposed to their inclusion.
My guess? Renegade Guard will get obsec, Cultists won't. Renegade Guard will probably have slightly better stats, some stratagems that work on them, and maybe benefit from Legion traits or whatever our mono-faction bonus is. Basically they will be like Poxwalkers and Tzaangors are in their respective Legions: better chaff than Cultists, but still chaff. Cultists will just be cheap, nothing more.
Hhmmm, I love the idea of World Eaters. Who doesn't? I suspect there are tons of chaos players who would absolutely love world eaters as a properly developed faction on its own. I mean, who doesn't love to scream "Blood for the blood god !!!!!!"
And who doesn't love Kharn.
But anyway, this is all in 2022 no matter what the rumors say and no matter what comes true, so in the meantime, I am going to pick up and start playing thousand sons, because I refuse to play 1 Wound CSM from now until next year.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/18 02:30:21
It'd be cool of Cultists didn't have ObSec, could perform actions, you could only bring as many as you bring CSM units, but they don't take up a troops slot.
Let you bring a real big rabble of nonsense chaff.
Marshal Loss wrote: The rumours listed BSF-style renegade guard alongside BSF-style cultists for CSM in 2022. Not sure why CSM would get both. Might be a precursor to an eventual LATD-style release in the (distant?) future
Traitor Guard could be a Core unit while Cultists aren't?
There's a couple of different routes they could go, given the new stuff we've seen in 40k so far. Could also be Traitor Guard get their own "traits" while Cultists get nothing.
Maybe, but neither Tzaangors nor Cultists in the TS book are Core/neither Poxwalkers nor Cultists in the DG book are Core, which I think they'll save for actual marines. Renegade Guard getting access to the trait(s) like Tzaangor get access to the 5+ invul sounds more plausible.
Just feels weird CSM getting both when they both fill, presumably, very similar roles as inexpensive chaff to compliment your more expensive marines (which GW have been trying to push people to take). Not what I would have predicted at all. But if these rumours are right it's a big LATD-style addition to the CSM book, so as you say there's quite a few ways this could go. As a guy with a WB army I'm certainly not opposed to their inclusion.
My guess? Renegade Guard will get obsec, Cultists won't. Renegade Guard will probably have slightly better stats, some stratagems that work on them, and maybe benefit from Legion traits or whatever our mono-faction bonus is. Basically they will be like Poxwalkers and Tzaangors are in their respective Legions: better chaff than Cultists, but still chaff. Cultists will just be cheap, nothing more.
Ah, I'd forgotten about Tzaangors/Poxwalkers getting obsec - good call.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
macluvin wrote: Six months to 18 months until we get 2w CSM? Whoo! And then 10-20 months until new edition. Welcome to space marine 2.0 codex land XD
Well Space Marines have had two complete full updates since the last time CSM had an actual update. I'm just hoping this next codex is an actual update, and not just CSM 8.4.
It wouldn't surprise me if space marines got an update of some sort within 6 months of CSM finally getting an actual codex for 9th.
Shame it seems like EC won't get their own book, but getting an angron book would be pretty badass.
Galas wrote: If It can make a Renegade khornate army ala Blood pact Im sold.
Yeah, I'm really hoping that the Lost and The Damned stuff can be run by itself, with no Astartes. Probably the closest thing to R&H we'll be getting this edition.
I'm also wondering what kind of rework Chosen will be getting with those new models.
However, since it is in the warp, it will be the year 2525.
Seems legit.
But yeah, all we can do is hope. It's just like GW to start a trend and then abandon it halfway through. I wouldn't be surprised if Thousand Sons and Death Guard were the test, and it's likely that work on Angron/Fulgrim/Noise Marines/Khorne Berzerkers didn't start until they had determined that giving WE/EC their own Codexes would be worth it.
Now we just hope they do it right. Honestly, I wouldn't mind the Supplement treatment, since it would allow WE/EC to take more of the regular Chaos Marine stuff, like possessed and bikers that Death Guard and Thousand Sons have to ally in to get.
If the WE and EC books aren't supplements, then they can kiss goodbye to a bunch of units that don't have specific WE/EC kits. Only a few of those survived for DG/1KS.
So unless they release a Slaaneshi Havoc or Khorne Biker kit, expect those to go the way the dodo.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/19 02:49:12
If the WE and EC books aren't supplements, then they can kiss goodbye to a bunch of units that don't have specific WE/EC kits. Only a few of those survived for DG/1KS.
So unless they release a Slaaneshi Havoc or Khorne Biker kit, expect those to go the way the dodo.
Not necessarily 'go the way of the dodo' since generic Chaos Marines will still be able to take them, and plenty of people play Undivided as well (still waiting on those 2 wounds)
And the flip side is that if they go that route, the expectation is that there'd be tons of Khorne and Slaanesh centric units to fill out the new Codexes.
BrianDavion wrote: rememebr not all khorneite or slaanishi chaos warbands are emperor's children or world eaters.
It's true, but one of the big hopes of having a WE Codex is to get Angron and new Khorne Berzerkers, along with Khorne-themed terminators and other beasts and units.
Same thing for EC and Fulgrim, Noise Marines, and a buttload of other slaanesh-themed things.
Having a supplement that just gives some extra slaanesh/khorne rules to the undivided Chaos Marines would be a kick in the nads for making us wait this long for more traitor primarchs and then not giving us a thing.
If the WE and EC books aren't supplements, then they can kiss goodbye to a bunch of units that don't have specific WE/EC kits. Only a few of those survived for DG/1KS.
So unless they release a Slaaneshi Havoc or Khorne Biker kit, expect those to go the way the dodo.
Shoot I hope not, having WE be a stand alone army but lose access to most of the general CSM models would be a giant gut punch.
BrianDavion wrote: rememebr not all khorneite or slaanishi chaos warbands are emperor's children or world eaters.
And the practical difference of that is what, exactly? Remember, Marks are just Keywords now. They have no inherent rules.
Whereas a "World Eater Biker" unit would be something different, as opposed to a CSM Biker unit that has a extra keyword.
The Red Hobbit wrote: Shoot I hope not, having WE be a stand alone army but lose access to most of the general CSM models would be a giant gut punch.
There might be the odd outlier (Possessed in DG armies, Spawn in Thousand Sons) and obviously (most) vehicles hang about, and they could leave things in (eg. WE could keep Bikers, EC might keep Havocs, or whatever), but we can expect to lose as much (if not more) as we gain.
I mean, my Death Guard Havoc units would love to still exist, as could Daemon Engines that aren't a Defiler or the specific DG ones.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/19 04:10:05
worth it to who? you? some people will happily buy a book that gives more fluff to iron warriors, gives unique crusade rules, and unique stratigiums etc.
"worth it" is entirely up to the purchaser.
Well yeah but that would hardly be helpful in the interest of discussion would it?
And are you telling me you'd be fine paying the cost of a full Codex for one Character, reprinted PA content and Crusade rules? I like background and stories but the supplements I've read offer naff all in the way the old Codexes do.
Didn't you all lap up the 8e Codex Supplements, the PA volumes, and recently the Book of Rust or whatever it was that had the extra DE stuff?
Yes, yes you all did. (or at least enough of you did)
So obviously the answer to your question is: "Yes".
I expect two books … one Chaos Marines and one World Eaters, but that latter one will be weird since the World Eaters splintered, being unable to work together due to RAGE! and falling apart. The return of Angron would give a rallypoint around which to rebuild I suppose, but still kinda weird.
I'd LOVE to see a Traitor Guard book as well, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Wakshaani wrote: I expect two books … one Chaos Marines and one World Eaters, but that latter one will be weird since the World Eaters splintered, being unable to work together due to RAGE! and falling apart. The return of Angron would give a rallypoint around which to rebuild I suppose, but still kinda weird.
I'd LOVE to see a Traitor Guard book as well, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
I really dislike this lore argument. "The World Eaters and Emperor's Children are too fractured to exist as a faction!"
So?
Give us Chaos God specific Codexes. I don't care if the first sentence in the book is "The World Eaters/Emperor's Children no longer exist as a legion, but as hundreds of splintered warbands." What matters is the rules, the models, and the pretty pictures.
And we have rules for Chapters that have that many people... so... why not Legions?
Didn't think there were any that are currently listed as only being a few hundred. Aren't most of the Chapters that got supplements at least close to 1k?
Wakshaani wrote: I expect two books … one Chaos Marines and one World Eaters, but that latter one will be weird since the World Eaters splintered, being unable to work together due to RAGE! and falling apart. The return of Angron would give a rallypoint around which to rebuild I suppose, but still kinda weird.
I'd LOVE to see a Traitor Guard book as well, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
I really dislike this lore argument. "The World Eaters and Emperor's Children are too fractured to exist as a faction!"
So?
Give us Chaos God specific Codexes. I don't care if the first sentence in the book is "The World Eaters/Emperor's Children no longer exist as a legion, but as hundreds of splintered warbands." What matters is the rules, the models, and the pretty pictures.
Right, and I get that, I'm curious to see how they'll handle it since, in-universe, the World Eaters completely broke apart. They're now little roving bands of ten to twenty guys, with a leader that's just the strongest one, frothing madman who just slaughter and … that's it. No mechanics to upkeep anything, no psychers, no tankers, nothing but guys who charge up and chop up.
Which is fine for sticking a unit or two of Berserkers into a force (probably locked into a Rhno cage, which Is then unlocked only long enough to unleash them on someone) … but you can't make an army out of that. A refocus on the World Eaters as following the Chaos God of WAR, with all that entails (grand strategy, logistics, supplies, etc) would be a huge help.
Right now, it's just Kharne and the Berserkers.
And if *that's* all they'll be? They don't need a Codex.
Give 'em a proper Death Guarding, with new models and options, I'm in, but for now? Not so much.
(Ultimately, you'd probably need six books … one for Chaos Marines (with Black Legion being the default) and each of the subfactions getting a page worth of stuff (like the Ork Dex gives each clan half a page) and the four dedicated groups getting a minidex that showcased their stuff. Lastly one for Renegades that'd cover both marines and guard who'd gone rogue but not gone Chaos, either. … But that's certainly asking too much. Alas, alas.)
Right, and I get that, I'm curious to see how they'll handle it since, in-universe, the World Eaters completely broke apart. They're now little roving bands of ten to twenty guys, with a leader that's just the strongest one, frothing madman who just slaughter and … that's it. No mechanics to upkeep anything, no psychers, no tankers, nothing but guys who charge up and chop up.
Which is fine for sticking a unit or two of Berserkers into a force (probably locked into a Rhno cage, which Is then unlocked only long enough to unleash them on someone) … but you can't make an army out of that. A refocus on the World Eaters as following the Chaos God of WAR, with all that entails (grand strategy, logistics, supplies, etc) would be a huge help.
Right now, it's just Kharne and the Berserkers.
And if *that's* all they'll be? They don't need a Codex.
Give 'em a proper Death Guarding, with new models and options, I'm in, but for now? Not so much.
(Ultimately, you'd probably need six books … one for Chaos Marines (with Black Legion being the default) and each of the subfactions getting a page worth of stuff (like the Ork Dex gives each clan half a page) and the four dedicated groups getting a minidex that showcased their stuff. Lastly one for Renegades that'd cover both marines and guard who'd gone rogue but not gone Chaos, either. … But that's certainly asking too much. Alas, alas.)
All of the Legions splintered except for the Death Guard and even they've had their share of separatists. The Thousand Sons were fragmented until Wrath of Magnus just handwaved it as the titular guy handwaving a "let bygones be bygones and lets kill the Wolves."
No doubt any future World Eaters codex will do something similar, except described as akin to the Khorne Daemonkin book where if a Khorne force makes a big enough splash, they inevitably draw more cultists/Berserkers/Daemons to their bloodtide. Kharn will probably succeed in breaking Angorn back into the material plane on Armageddon or something and most of the Legion immediately B-Line for it no matter where they were. Still won't be enough to stop Guilliman wrecking them of course.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/19 18:36:40
Angron's coming back already...the gate on Armageddon is such a problem that some of the Orks and Ork Hunters have been allying to fight daemonic incursions.
Snikrot's been killing any Orks that he finds have been doing so.
Arbitrator wrote: No doubt any future World Eaters codex will do something similar, except described as akin to the Khorne Daemonkin book where if a Khorne force makes a big enough splash, they inevitably draw more cultists/Berserkers/Daemons to their bloodtide. Kharn will probably succeed in breaking Angorn back into the material plane on Armageddon or something and most of the Legion immediately B-Line for it no matter where they were. Still won't be enough to stop Guilliman wrecking them of course.
Agreed, I fully expect them to copy paste the setup with Wrath of Magnus for World Eaters bringing back Angron then at 5 minutes to midnight they'll lose to the Imperium. Final tally will probably be a few dozen nameless Imperial Worlds and maybe 1 or 2 important ones just like the other advance the setting Chaos victories.
I think all the Chaos gods will end up like Nurgle with his Scourge Stars, i.e. with their own little pocket empire in realspace. Gives Chaos a base to wage endless large scale war all across the Imperium, not just mostly in the Eye of Terror or its surroundings.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hhmmm, I love the idea of World Eaters. Who doesn't? I suspect there are tons of chaos players who would absolutely love world eaters as a properly developed faction on its own. I mean, who doesn't love to scream "Blood for the blood god !!!!!!"
And who doesn't love Kharn.
But anyway, this is all in 2022 no matter what the rumors say and no matter what comes true, so in the meantime, I am going to pick up and start playing thousand sons, because I refuse to play 1 Wound CSM from now until next year.
Hell, it would get my xenophile arse interested in a Chaos army.
Iracundus wrote: I think all the Chaos gods will end up like Nurgle with his Scourge Stars, i.e. with their own little pocket empire in realspace. Gives Chaos a base to wage endless large scale war all across the Imperium, not just mostly in the Eye of Terror or its surroundings.
it also gives the IoM a place to go on the offensive against them, something that IMHO has been SORELY missed as it means the chaos vs iom narrative is ALWAYS "chaos attacks"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
