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Yup, EC & WE won't come back unless Primarchs accompany them.

Where have all the credible rumours referenced in this thread come from?


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It wouldn’t surprise me if we got a curve ball like AL, to give us more but infuriate is by not giving us what we want

tneva82 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
The supplement system only works if each subfaction has a good amount of content behind it. Ultramarines, Black Templars (including the new stuff), and the various non-Codex Astartes Chapters work because they have significant range support. The only Chaos Legion that would have any chance at a good value supplement would be Black Legion but even then, 2 characters does not a supplement make.

Like salamanders(2 characters, upgrade sprue), iron hands(1,1) and Ravenguard(1, 1) then? Big significant range support there.

and in the case of iron hands they didn't have a special character AT ALL before the supplement. supplement books work if there is sufficant intreast in a faction and it's subfactions to be worth dedicating books to the Myrid subfactions. I think CSMs are the one faction other then loyalists who could manage this

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Or you could repurpose existing model to allow them to be in special force orgs per army
Night lords Raptors as troops, Iron warriors havocs as troops, etc.

Which doesn't matter in 9th Ed because both of these units will have <CORE> and detachments allow players to take armies consisting of basically any Force Org slots.

tneva82 wrote:

Like salamanders(2 characters, upgrade sprue), iron hands(1,1) and Ravenguard(1, 1) then? Big significant range support there.

You didn't read what I said. Non-Codex Chapters was so obviously a reference to the Angels, Wolves and Deathwatch which all have enough unique units and special characters that make their supplements worth the cost compared to every other Chapter bar the Ultramarines.


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BrianDavion wrote:

and in the case of iron hands they didn't have a special character AT ALL before the supplement. supplement books work if there is sufficant intreast in a faction and it's subfactions to be worth dedicating books to the Myrid subfactions. I think CSMs are the one faction other then loyalists who could manage this

While I agree that CSM could manage it, I don't think it would be done in either a competent or meaningful way. There comes a point where just adding units for the sake of giving a faction more options becomes obsolete. What can you add to Word Bearers that would be any different from say a Dark Apostle or Cultists? Or Iron Warriors? The unique units in 30k work (or often don't work) because the system allows for more options and rules differences. The downside of this is that some units are amazing, like Iron Havocs, and others are trash, like SoH Reavers. Same goes for characters.

You can always go further, and you wouldn't even have to take change the unit tag.

Either make specific patrols/battalions for subfaction. And give the battalions extensive special rules. Something like DE get only with more rules, but also more restrictions

Or you could link it to specific characters. If you take a 1-2 masters of possessions and 1-3 sorcerers, you can take demons in your army and they don't break your armies version of chapter tactics. And they wouldn't even have to be too specific or conflict with other sub faction rules. Lets say most csm army could make an infiltration force, but it would require some limitations in the form of vehicles and units a player could take. But it could be an IW or AL force.

Plus the rules could over lap. An infiltration force , a generic csm detachment, could also fullfil the requirmernts for a WB cultists swarm or an AL insartion force. This way the same special csm detachment could look and play different depending on which subfaction is being played.

 Gert wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Or you could repurpose existing model to allow them to be in special force orgs per army
Night lords Raptors as troops, Iron warriors havocs as troops, etc.

Which doesn't matter in 9th Ed because both of these units will have <CORE> and detachments allow players to take armies consisting of basically any Force Org slots.

tneva82 wrote:

Like salamanders(2 characters, upgrade sprue), iron hands(1,1) and Ravenguard(1, 1) then? Big significant range support there.

You didn't read what I said. Non-Codex Chapters was so obviously a reference to the Angels, Wolves and Deathwatch which all have enough unique units and special characters that make their supplements worth the cost compared to every other Chapter bar the Ultramarines.


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BrianDavion wrote:

and in the case of iron hands they didn't have a special character AT ALL before the supplement. supplement books work if there is sufficant intreast in a faction and it's subfactions to be worth dedicating books to the Myrid subfactions. I think CSMs are the one faction other then loyalists who could manage this

While I agree that CSM could manage it, I don't think it would be done in either a competent or meaningful way. There comes a point where just adding units for the sake of giving a faction more options becomes obsolete. What can you add to Word Bearers that would be any different from say a Dark Apostle or Cultists? Or Iron Warriors? The unique units in 30k work (or often don't work) because the system allows for more options and rules differences. The downside of this is that some units are amazing, like Iron Havocs, and others are trash, like SoH Reavers. Same goes for characters.

you don't need much, a single special character is fine, the rules etc and ways to use it are what makes it stand out, also I bought all the loyalist codices in part because it gave some good lore (granted the 9E supplements just sucked for that as much as all the other 9e books but...)

What about traitor guard? People were getting excited for that after the Blackstone release. A bumper year for chaos could mean a lot of different things.

BrianDavion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
The supplement system only works if each subfaction has a good amount of content behind it. Ultramarines, Black Templars (including the new stuff), and the various non-Codex Astartes Chapters work because they have significant range support. The only Chaos Legion that would have any chance at a good value supplement would be Black Legion but even then, 2 characters does not a supplement make.

Like salamanders(2 characters, upgrade sprue), iron hands(1,1) and Ravenguard(1, 1) then? Big significant range support there.

and in the case of iron hands they didn't have a special character AT ALL before the supplement. supplement books work if there is sufficant intreast in a faction and it's subfactions to be worth dedicating books to the Myrid subfactions. I think CSMs are the one faction other then loyalists who could manage this

And ultimately supplements comes if GW wants to make them. If it needs material then GW will write something. Obviously tons of models for subfaction isn't needed.

On plus side maybe iron warriors etc gets at least upgrade sprue if GW goes that route.


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 Gert wrote:

You didn't read what I said. Non-Codex Chapters was so obviously a reference to the Angels, Wolves and Deathwatch which all have enough unique units and special characters that make their supplements worth the cost compared to every other Chapter bar the Ultramarines.

"The supplement system only works if each subfaction has a good amount of content behind it."

each subfaction...

Each subfaction obviously covers...well EACH subfaction. So not just wolves, blood angels etc. Salamanders, raven guard etc also got supplement and with just 2-3 kits for them.

It was done for loyalists. No reason whatsoever GW couldn't give same treatment to chaos. Apart from chaos not being the posterboys of the game.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Imagine 10'th edition using the new Kill Team stats.

Knights go up to 145 wounds apiece but they get bracketed every 40 wounds.

Yep, and imagine IK having a move stat of an "octahedron" while everybody else has the speed of a "circle".

macluvin wrote:
Six months to 18 months until we get 2w CSM? Whoo! And then 10-20 months until new edition. Welcome to space marine 2.0 codex land XD

Dont be so pessimistic. We did get in 6th edition if I remember correct the first codex. It was really shiny for a couple of months before the next codexes just made it bad. So at least one time they have made CSM codex first and somehow it was viable for even shorter time period. But lets look at it positively it was not released right before the ned edition that time

I'm betting on WBs and IW. Contrary to what everyone wants and expects. The two least wanted legions will get codexes. Because GW likes parity. WBs are the opposite but equals to BTs, and IWs are the equal but opposite to IHs.

I am likely completely wrong.

Iron Warriors are the contempories of the Imperial Fists (offensive vs defensive seige experts), Iron Hands to the Emperor's Children (both craftsmen, form vs function).

tneva82 wrote:

"The supplement system only works if each subfaction has a good amount of content behind it."

each subfaction...

Each subfaction obviously covers...well EACH subfaction. So not just wolves, blood angels etc. Salamanders, raven guard etc also got supplement and with just 2-3 kits for them.

It was done for loyalists. No reason whatsoever GW couldn't give same treatment to chaos. Apart from chaos not being the posterboys of the game.

And then you didn't read the rest of the post where I outlined which specific subfactions work as a supplement. Just because Scars, Hands, Ravens, and Fists got supplements doesn't mean they were a good idea.
1 or 2 Characters isn't enough to justify a £25 book whereas 8 Characters and 6 units is a different matter.

Difference is that Scars, Hands, Ravens, etc all could have been done better.

I have zero issue with CSM getting their own "Legion books" covering BL, IW, NL, AL, WB, and then a last book covering Renegades.

But it can't just be "Here's a character, relics, and stratagems! Enjoy!". Giving them at minimum a unique unit should be done. If that unit is just something made via an existing kit+upgrade frame? Nothing wrong with that!

Unless the supplement is similar to Traitor Legions where there was actually content and not just 1 unit, it's not going to be worth it.

Hence why I said what I did...?

I, personally, was a fan of the SM supplements. I bought the Raven Guard one. The biggest disappointment I had was the lack of a bodyguard unit for Shrike(the only other Primaris Chapter Master aside from Calgar with a model) and that they did not take the opportunity to add a "unique loadout" for the Lieutenants ala the Wolves and the Dark Angels. RG could have stood getting an Eliminator Lieutenant, IF could have gotten an Aggressor, etc.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Who's lining up to buy Codex: Flawless Host?

I'd buy it. I'd love to see more in-depth rules for Renegades.

World Eaters and Emperors Children deserve their own codexes if Death Guard/Thousand Sons got them, and Black Legion, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, and Iron Warriors should get their own codex supplements like the loyalist chapters did.

That being said, I don't entirely understand the logic of making TS and DG (and Grey Knights) full codexes when Deathwatch, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Black Templars are supplements. DW/SW/BA/DA/BT have their own fair few special characters, unique units, and special wargear, etc. that significantly re-characterize their respective armies, at least as many as Thousand Sons do (if not more) and probably not far off from DG/GK. It feels like they don't have a well-defined standard as to what qualifies a codex supplement vs a codex, or if they do I'm not understanding it.

Simplest answer is that they didn't want to republish the material so many times for those supplements as "full books"...and they wanted to make it easy for Chapter-hopping.

Or maybe its just because the 4 gods have very different fighting styles so full codexes made more difference than for the loyalists

Loyalists share the same 90% of their Codex units. GW only has to update 1 book with FAQ's and Errata's with the supplement system rather rather 5. In theory it's sound, in practice less so for anything that has less than 5 unique options IMO.

Yeah I think that each traitor legion needs to be so different from each other that they need their own codex and range of models.

 Gert wrote:
Unless the supplement is similar to Traitor Legions where there was actually content and not just 1 unit, it's not going to be worth it.

worth it to who? you? some people will happily buy a book that gives more fluff to iron warriors, gives unique crusade rules, and unique stratigiums etc.

"worth it" is entirely up to the purchaser.

BrianDavion wrote:

worth it to who? you? some people will happily buy a book that gives more fluff to iron warriors, gives unique crusade rules, and unique stratigiums etc.

"worth it" is entirely up to the purchaser.

Well yeah but that would hardly be helpful in the interest of discussion would it?
And are you telling me you'd be fine paying the cost of a full Codex for one Character, reprinted PA content and Crusade rules?
I like background and stories but the supplements I've read offer naff all in the way the old Codexes do.

I'm hearing "2022 will be a bumper year for Chaos!" as "oh, yeah, anyone playing any of the other seven Legions we couldn't be bothered to update, yeah, they still exist, well, uh, we'll have to do a Codex for you eventually, we're aware you can't really play the game right now because all your stuff is terrible, yeah, um, hope you buy a new army in the next year while waiting for us to get around to letting you participate again?"

(Disclaimer: Yes, I'm being petty, hyperbolic, sour, conflating a bunch of arguments, and ascribing malice to an uncaring universe, I know.)


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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Or maybe its just because the 4 gods have very different fighting styles so full codexes made more difference than for the loyalists

Eh. They're different Codexes because they have different models, and they have different models because GW made a deliberate decision to make them different Codexes. I don't think they "had to" be more different from the loyalists for any fluff or gameplay reason.

 Gert wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

worth it to who? you? some people will happily buy a book that gives more fluff to iron warriors, gives unique crusade rules, and unique stratigiums etc.

"worth it" is entirely up to the purchaser.

Well yeah but that would hardly be helpful in the interest of discussion would it?
And are you telling me you'd be fine paying the cost of a full Codex for one Character, reprinted PA content and Crusade rules?
I like background and stories but the supplements I've read offer naff all in the way the old Codexes do.

I bought all of the space marine supplements. obviously if it was just reprinted PA stuff I'd be unhappy, but let's crack open a codex supplement, (in this case we'll go with dark angels as it was the first 9th edition supplement I grabbed) go over whats in it and try to detirmine what a CSM supplement would look like.

the first half dozen pages discuss history and mention a liiitle bit about orginization, mostly discussing some characters, so that's 6 pages of background. then the rock gets detailed, this would proably be in a CSM equivilant a page detailing the "homeworld" of the traitor legion. likely touching on what happened to their original homeworld and detailing the deamon world they make their home on.
you then get a warzone page and a few more pages discussing special characters and orginization, for chaos marines this could detail various other warbands etc.
I'm a big fluff bunny so if the fluff is good, it's worth it to me. then we move onto rules. assuming they mostly just reprinted the PA stuff that's some strats relics etc. but new would be a legion specific set of psyker spells. you'd get crusade rules, crusade relics etc.

so yeah unless the psyker powers are insanely good, or they do a buncha new strats etc, the power gamers won't care about it, but the fluff bunnies will.

 Fergie0044 wrote:
What about traitor guard? People were getting excited for that after the Blackstone release. A bumper year for chaos could mean a lot of different things.

That would be quite nice, they've already got the sculpts done so it's be great to see those in stock again.

The rumours listed BSF-style renegade guard alongside BSF-style cultists for CSM in 2022. Not sure why CSM would get both. Might be a precursor to an eventual LATD-style release in the (distant?) future

It certainly would be surprising if they became standard troop choices wouldn't it? But hey if they do then it might incentivize them to make CSM a good troop choice compared to the cheap options available. One can hope.

 Marshal Loss wrote:
The rumours listed BSF-style renegade guard alongside BSF-style cultists for CSM in 2022. Not sure why CSM would get both. Might be a precursor to an eventual LATD-style release in the (distant?) future

Traitor Guard could be a Core unit while Cultists aren't?

There's a couple of different routes they could go, given the new stuff we've seen in 40k so far. Could also be Traitor Guard get their own "traits" while Cultists get nothing.