Hello internet! I hope you are all conquering your enemies out there. I know that it has been some time since I have posted a battle report. This article will be about what I have been up to and the changes that I have seen in my competitive group.
My own play group is comprised of players that like to play with the top armies. Because of that I have barely gotten a game in over the last six months that wasn't against drukhari or ad mech, as those two armies are (still!) seriously overtuned. In my experience the games tend to be kind of boring, are often lopsided, and don't make for good battle report content because too often the game is over before it starts (depending on terrain and first turn). So the competitive games I've been playing haven't been very interesting and so I just haven't been interested in writing up a report.
Orcs: One exception to the endless slog of dark eldar and admech is that I did get a chance to play about a half dozen games against the new orc codex. I've played against a variety of builds (more on that at the end) and overall I don't think this is a codex that will win you games on its own. The cavalry units and things like the kill rig look good on paper, but can't move through terrain and can be very easy to roadblock as they end up needing to go through specific choke points. The infantry overall is too squishy. This leaves the buggies and to some extent the flyers as the good units out of which to comprise an army to win. The orc games were either blow out losses (when they focused on infantry or cavalry) or blow out wins (when all they brought was buggies). I'll be interested to see if anyone but the few best orc players can make the codex work outside of the buggies.
It all started with Drukhari....
I have been playing GW games for 31 years. Over the course of that time I have seen very different approaches to what models could be used. Early on in the games conversions and third party miniatures were outright encouraged. Making the coolest looking model possible was a huge part of the hobby through 4th edition. Cool conversions started to die in 5th edition, as 5th edition introduced true line of sight. True line of sight meant two things.... 1st people stopped building cool looking tables, especially tables that looked like historical battlefields, and started building tables with (increasingly) massive walls to hide things for pure game purposes. The second thing true line of sight did was make it so that big, awesome looking models were a liability as they could be seen. All of a sudden the concept of "modeling for advantage" became a thing. You no longer modeled for coolness factor, and the game in my opinion has really lost something from 5th edition on as a consequence of TLOS. Today's game rules might be better than it was in say 2nd through 4th edition, but the armies and especially the battlefields of those early days looked significantly better and more realistic.
Obviously after the Chapterhouse lawsuit "no models, no rules" became the standard. Also, in the modern era GW is not open at all to third party miniatures, and sometimes even discourages conversions of its own models. And new on the scene is 3D printing.
So in my particular play group 3D printing was typically considered a faux pas. The one exception to this was expensive forgeworld kits. The deal here was that it was often cheaper and better quality to buy forgeworld from recasters, and so even here 3D printing was not super common.
This reluctance, or social stigma, to 3D printed models has completely changed this year.
It all started with Drukhari. When the book came out it was obviously way too powerful with even a casual read. However due to a variety of factors most of the army was not available to be purchased at the time the book was released. So what was someone to do if they needed a lot of models to play with the most broken rules?
The answer was 3D printing, at least for a large portion of my play group. In particular early on it was grotesques and wrack squads. However I know of at least one player who has done quite well in mostly midwest tournaments where the entire army was 3D printed except for the Raiders. Because I started to face 3D printed armies all of the time I got a chance to inspect them.
Quality: In my opinion 3D printing is almost there. The wrack squads I could tell the difference between plastics and printed models because the printed models have slightly softer edges. This can be hidden to an extent with paint job, but if you put them side by side you can still always tell in my opinion.
The same was true but for the opposite reason on the grotesques. Printed grotesques hold the detail better than finecast, and simply look better. When painted, 3D printed grotesques look significantly better than the finecast genuine article, and are much cheaper to boot. The biggest way to tell the difference between the two is when you pick them up the printed grotesques are quite a bit heavier than the finecast ones (and probably look better at a glance). I find this quite sad, as it sort of means that GW could offer a better product if it simply 3D printed its own grotesques and sold those instead of the finecast.
So Drukhari was the hot stuff for months, stayed sold out, and slowly the Drukhari players, if they didn't print them themselves at least bought a number of their models from people who were printing. It was simply a matter of supply. However, this reality started to break the taboo.
Months passed and we got a second lolwhat codex. Admech models are in general very spikey and spindley, and are not great options to print. That said, here again I saw the next evolution of the 3D printing trend. Lots of my friends again jumped on this bandwagon for having clearly superior rules to other 9th edition books. Here the printed model of choice was the hounds. The hounds are lumpier and can still look good when printed. What was different here was that the model was NOT always sold out. It was hard to get for weeks here and there, sure. But while for Drukhari it was a matter of no supply, for admech suddenly it was about price. 3 hounds was simply too expensive, and now that 3d printing was becoming accepted (in the group) and so people would print just that portion of the army.
Volkite Culverins: The straw that broke the camels back for the rest of the group was the Volkite Contemptor. It is the opinion of many that this is the single best unit in multiple codexes and is simply underpriced and efficient for the number of shots and mortal wound output. But this is another expensive forgeworld option that has been impossible to get for some time. Due to the perception that these are necessary for competitive play because they are so good for their points, the last few people decided to either print and/or buy printed volkites so that they could go to tournaments.
Keep in mind, this all happened in about 6 months. It went from being taboo to 3d print, to being considered necessary as part of competitive play to 3d print. The change has been dizzying.
Are 3D printed models OK? This perhaps is the same question as conversions. As near as I can tell it is still the official rule at most tournaments that 3d printed models are banned. But who checks? How can you tell? I can tell because I've had the chance to inspect models pre and post paint from my friends. I know people that have gone to large tournaments with mostly 3d printed models, and have never been asked about their models.
As a long time GW fan I don't know that this makes me very happy, but at this point it seems like the inevitable outcome. I don't know that you can put this horse back in the barn. A combination of overpowered rules combined with supply shortages and a new technology seem to have changed the players relationship with models forever. Right now, GW is sold out, so they are not losing any sales TODAY. However, I wonder about the long term impact of this change.
And this brings me back to playing against Orcs. So, again, my group played a lot out of the codex using proxies. The conclusion, the book is pretty well balanced (read not good enough to win for you) outside of the buggies. And what do you know, I just learned that one of my friends has 3D printed an entire orc list, made mostly of 18 buggies that are hard to get.
So, informally, I know in my group that 3D printing is now seen as the way for competitive play. I am curious if other groups are seeing the same things. For the TOs out there, do you plan on enforcing a no 3D printed models at any tournaments? How would you even check? Is disallowing 3D printed models just making 40k play to win? I am very curious on thoughts overall.
I have been playing GW games for 31 years. Over the course of that time I have seen very different approaches to what models could be used. Early on in the games conversions and third party miniatures were outright encouraged. Making the coolest looking model possible was a huge part of the hobby through 4th edition. Cool conversions started to die in 5th edition, as 5th edition introduced true line of sight. True line of sight meant two things.... 1st people stopped building cool looking tables, especially tables that looked like historical battlefields, and started building tables with (increasingly) massive walls to hide things for pure game purposes. The second thing true line of sight did was make it so that big, awesome looking models were a liability as they could be seen. All of a sudden the concept of "modeling for advantage" became a thing. You no longer modeled for coolness factor, and the game in my opinion has really lost something from 5th edition on as a consequence of TLOS. Today's game rules might be better than it was in say 2nd through 4th edition, but the armies and especially the battlefields of those early days looked significantly better and more realistic.
Not true in the slightest. TLOS has been a thing since GW has made games. It was always there. 4th had an exception for area terrain, which ad its own rules, but all other terrain and models used TLOS.
Never heard of the "crouching Wraithlords" or people using RT Avatars prior to 5th? (I'm not just picking on Eldar players there, those are just two standout examples).
I have been playing GW games for 31 years. Over the course of that time I have seen very different approaches to what models could be used. Early on in the games conversions and third party miniatures were outright encouraged. Making the coolest looking model possible was a huge part of the hobby through 4th edition. Cool conversions started to die in 5th edition, as 5th edition introduced true line of sight. True line of sight meant two things.... 1st people stopped building cool looking tables, especially tables that looked like historical battlefields, and started building tables with (increasingly) massive walls to hide things for pure game purposes. The second thing true line of sight did was make it so that big, awesome looking models were a liability as they could be seen. All of a sudden the concept of "modeling for advantage" became a thing. You no longer modeled for coolness factor, and the game in my opinion has really lost something from 5th edition on as a consequence of TLOS. Today's game rules might be better than it was in say 2nd through 4th edition, but the armies and especially the battlefields of those early days looked significantly better and more realistic.
Not true in the slightest. TLOS has been a thing since GW has made games. It was always there. 4th had an exception for area terrain, which ad its own rules, but all other terrain and models used TLOS.
Never heard of the "crouching Wraithlords" or people using RT Avatars prior to 5th? (I'm not just picking on Eldar players there, those are just two standout examples).
TLOS in 5th-8th literally punched giant holes into peoples terrain collections for LOS purposes, and was fething dumb. One of the worst moves GW has ever made in terms of rules writing.
Not true in the slightest. TLOS has been a thing since GW has made games. It was always there. 4th had an exception for area terrain, which ad its own rules, but all other terrain and models used TLOS.
Never heard of the "crouching Wraithlords" or people using RT Avatars prior to 5th? (I'm not just picking on Eldar players there, those are just two standout examples).
I played those early editions a lot as it was my introduction to the hobby and I had more free time. In 3rd edition a model blocked line of sight to anything up to twice it's height. This was very important, and was a complete abstraction. It meant, for instance, for Tyranids that if you had termagants in front of genestealers in front of warriors in front of a carnifex and hive tyrant, the big boys couldn't be targeted until the gaunts were killed, and then the stealers and so forth. That is just one example. People used models to block for other models all of the time because the firing lines were an abstraction.
In 4th edition they made changes but it was also an abstraction. Here, you could only shoot the closest models to you unless you were targeting (the closest) monster/vehicle or you passed a leadership test. This had nothing to do with line of sight. This really let you feel how scary a 40k battlefield was because your troops were always just hammering away at whatever was closest. This is WHY a distraction carnifex, which got it's name in this edition, worked. As a monster, as long as it was closest it had to be targeted by the entire enemy army, and they simply ignored small arms fire.
In 2nd through 4th you could have battlefields that looked like battlefields because LOS was an abstraction. As soon as 5th hit the game has never been the same.
Whoah whoah whoah. . . did a post of mine actually addressing the topic of 3D printed models get removed for some reason? (Even though it said outright copying GW stuff was wrong)?
At the last tournament I attended the TO himself had an army where all the tanks were 3d printed. Suffice to say he didn't care whether people brought printed or 3rd party miniatures to that event.
Possibly it's a regional thing though, as the local tournament scene has always been a bit carefree about that as long as I've been playing. I recall at one event I went to probably about 10 years ago there was a necron player who had built all his vehicles out of wooden blocks. Another time maybe 5 years ago I played a tournament game against a daemon army made entirely out of cthulu miniatures.
The only people here that find recasting or 3d printing of models bad, are those that who for some reason can't work with resin. And from what people are talking here, it has been like this since before I was born. Also the speed at which the recasting and 3d printing world is moving is huge. Last week I have seen sprues in hard resing of stuff made from the new GW plastic, which I thought was impossible to print, because of the details etc. Only God knows what in a few years people are going to be able to do with it. And GW is going to have to, sooner rather then later, do something about it.
3D printing is definitely the way forward, without question, and a horse that neither can nor should be placed back in its barn. GW's consumer-farming ecosystem has been building stress fractures for years now, with increasing model prices, worse and more expensive rules, limited supply and availability in a system that attempts to require the exclusive use of its models, and significant loss of community goodwill over recent incidents. Something had to give sooner or later, and now that you can get a magic goo fabricator, some good proxy files, and enough resin to print for $300 and change an army that can run over a thousand, that's starting to show.
Ultimately, all else being roughly equal, I would honestly respect an army that consisted of 3D proxy prints over one that consisted of unconverted GW minis. GW taking some long term impact can only be a good thing, frankly. They've gotten fat and complacent at the top of their heap, and a reminder that consumers could ditch them en masse might just be the kick in the pants that they need to actually start doing some work.
Maybe they could eventually sell STL files. Before the downward spiral of opinion that I've had on GW over the last year, I'd said out loud that I'd pay some pretty decent prices for "Official" STL files of their minis for home printing. Sure, there'd be piracy, but I frankly don't see how that'd be much different from the near future except in that GW would get some money out of it.
Yeah, I know, far fetched to suggest that from a company that can't even do digital codexes anymore.
RandomHeretic wrote: I have been playing GW games for 31 years. Over the course of that time I have seen very different approaches to what models could be used. Early on in the games conversions and third party miniatures were outright encouraged. Making the coolest looking model possible was a huge part of the hobby through 4th edition. Cool conversions started to die in 5th edition, as 5th edition introduced true line of sight. True line of sight meant two things.... 1st people stopped building cool looking tables, especially tables that looked like historical battlefields, and started building tables with (increasingly) massive walls to hide things for pure game purposes. The second thing true line of sight did was make it so that big, awesome looking models were a liability as they could be seen. All of a sudden the concept of "modeling for advantage" became a thing. You no longer modeled for coolness factor, and the game in my opinion has really lost something from 5th edition on as a consequence of TLOS. Today's game rules might be better than it was in say 2nd through 4th edition, but the armies and especially the battlefields of those early days looked significantly better and more realistic.
Terrain these days is in a dire state.
It seems that, more and more, we end up with these symmetricalterrainsetups that suck the life out of everything.
And because of the size of GW's boxes, they couldn't fit playing surfaces that were 1x1 in size*, and thus they created their own size that fit inside their boxes. That size then became the "minimum" size for their games, which in turn led to the tournament crowd falling over themselves to adopt the smaller table size, which meant that all the various mat makers out there started doing new mats in that size (some exclusively in that size), and then you add the symmetrical terrain on top of that. So now we get smaller boards with boring terrain that always looks the same.
Add to that that GW's terrain is getting less modular (and certainly shorter!), and we have the current situation with terrain in 40k. It ain't great.
*They would later find a way around this for Necromunda, but too little too late I'm afraid.
I think this is a very good and necessary conversation to have.
My two cents:
We are going to start seeing (or are ALREADY seeing,) a split in the community over this issue. There are going to be "pure" stores/venues where using anything other than bog-standard gw models will NOT be acceptable... and then there are going to be the exact opposite.
It's my opinion that, eventually, the "let people bring what they want" type venues/tourney's (where 3d printing, alternative models, ect, are allowed,) will win out.
GW has been determined to metaphorically shoot themselves in the foot time and time again... and eventually, well, it's going to start causing them problems. I think one of the big changes to come over the hobby is the 3d printing one, and honestly it's only going to get more common from here.
No amount of lawsuits and temper tantrums by GW is going to change that.
ironically the thing gw seems to be doing to combat 3rd party/3d printing is the exact thing that's killing it in my eyes.
I'm sitting here, clipping out my kommandos from kill team, thinking to myself "you know...the thing that would maybe get me to pay GW prices is the fact that I would get to really make my own guys, customized and unique, by swapping various parts around from various kits and that feeling of cutting out all the bits and putting them in various piles to sort out and decide which to put together how was...basically all the fun of assembling models for me."
Right now, I don't think I'll ever buy a GW kit twice again. I'll just go see what 3rd party/3d print sites have as reasonable proxies.
I've always wanted an IG army but didn't want to do Cadians, and didn't feel like the old metals would give me the selection I wanted or come at a reasonable price. But then my friend and I just invested in a decent quality printer, and now I'm really looking forward to designing my own models in the years to come.
Insectum7 wrote: I've always wanted an IG army but didn't want to do Cadians, and didn't feel like the old metals would give me the selection I wanted or come at a reasonable price. But then my friend and I just invested in a decent quality printer, and now I'm really looking forward to designing my own models in the years to come.
See, that's exactly my point! And it's only going to get better from here :-)
I think this is a very good and necessary conversation to have.
My two cents:
We are going to start seeing (or are ALREADY seeing,) a split in the community over this issue. There are going to be "pure" stores/venues where using anything other than bog-standard gw models will NOT be acceptable... and then there are going to be the exact opposite.
It's my opinion that, eventually, the "let people bring what they want" type venues/tourney's (where 3d printing, alternative models, ect, are allowed,) will win out.
GW has been determined to metaphorically shoot themselves in the foot time and time again... and eventually, well, it's going to start causing them problems. I think one of the big changes to come over the hobby is the 3d printing one, and honestly it's only going to get more common from here.
No amount of lawsuits and temper tantrums by GW is going to change that.
the problem for the first groups is that as the technology improves and better and better printers become commercially available and affordable its going to become harder and harder to say what is or isn't an original GW model or a print.
The 'pure' tournaments are going to lose out simply because you won't be able to tell the difference at a glance.
Firstly for me, it's a case of ease of access.
For a 3d printed army I need to get a 3d printer, a PC/laptop (I might have that already but some people don't), find the files I want or I need to learn to create said files, then I need to learn how to do 3d printing, then I need to wait for either the parts or the model to print.
For GW stuff I go to a store or the webstore and buy the models.
3d printing isn't exactly brilliant for bringing new folks into the hobby.
However, the most important part of the hobby for me is kitbashing and converting. Since I was just a yoof, kicking about with my Boyz from Black Reach I've been making terrifying engines of destruction and characterful units. My current big project is two Watch Companies of Deathwatch where I am trying to get as many Chapters in as possible with as little repeats. Each model must be distinct and individual which has challenged me more than ever. How do I make this Marine look like a Black Templar outside of a shoulder pad? A scarred head from the Intercessor kit, little pendants and reliquary pieces from Captains and Sternguard and a Mk3 body to emphasise the knight aspect. With a printer I could just print all the exact parts I needed and it's no longer fun or challenging, it's just a chore.
I see recast sprues that looked perfect. How does stuff being 3d printed . stop someone from kit bashing the stuff? Plus there is the whole aspect of Dreadnought no longer costs 100$ to make and models, specially characters don't go for half as much. On top of that some of the designs that are sold by people online look better then the stuff GW makes.
3d printing is only at a glance not brining people in to the hobby. But go ask a new player if he would rather spend +800$ for the . GW original, specially if it has to include resin models, or pay a half or third of that in not original stuff. A ton of people are not going to choose the 800 plus option.
I'm fine with GW models, conversions, scratchbuilds, 3rd party stuff, 3d prints....
I'm also fine with shops setting whatever limitations the choose.
Well, except for "It must have been bought here!" Seriously, we had a local shop try that at one point. It didn't work out well for them btw.
Tourney wise? I'm not concerned at all what limits they apply as I'm not a tourney player.
ccs wrote: I'm also fine with shops setting whatever limitations the choose.
Well, except for "It must have been bought here!" Seriously, we had a local shop try that at one point. It didn't work out well for them btw.
At the same time you can kinda see why a store might have a problem with everyone showing up with 3D printed armies and nothing that came from them.
I think we're a long way off form that being a reality, but they won't like that.
Gert wrote: Firstly for me, it's a case of ease of access.
For a 3d printed army I need to get a 3d printer, a PC/laptop (I might have that already but some people don't), find the files I want or I need to learn to create said files, then I need to learn how to do 3d printing, then I need to wait for either the parts or the model to print.
For GW stuff I go to a store or the webstore and buy the models.
3d printing isn't exactly brilliant for bringing new folks into the hobby.
However, the most important part of the hobby for me is kitbashing and converting. Since I was just a yoof, kicking about with my Boyz from Black Reach I've been making terrifying engines of destruction and characterful units. My current big project is two Watch Companies of Deathwatch where I am trying to get as many Chapters in as possible with as little repeats. Each model must be distinct and individual which has challenged me more than ever. How do I make this Marine look like a Black Templar outside of a shoulder pad? A scarred head from the Intercessor kit, little pendants and reliquary pieces from Captains and Sternguard and a Mk3 body to emphasise the knight aspect. With a printer I could just print all the exact parts I needed and it's no longer fun or challenging, it's just a chore.
ohhhhhh hohohohoho, no it isnt my good friend! Because eventually, you discover the joy of Meshmixer and other programs, which allow you to kitbash DIGITALLY and twist and bend and rescale and chop and dent and screw.
hmmm, I want to get one of those new Big 'ead bossbunkas, but I want one that's really unique and impressive. I'll just...take this AT18 scaled Warbringer titan head I printed previously that had kind of the skull shape I want.
then I'll stretch it out in the Height direction, add some tubes sticking out of the neck join. Plane cut it so it sits on the table at an angle like it's jutting out of the ground. Scale it up to approximately the in-lore size of an Imperator titan head, and add Ork emblems and big shootas and some kannons from grot tank files. Add some rocks around the base, throw in a "Keep out" sign I found...and it'll cost me about 2$ to make.
Honestly, the main thing that is driving acceptance is that GW can't keep up with demand, particularly for stuff like FW contemptors. GW goes and makes vulkite contemptors one of the best units in the game, and a unit that is accessible to roughly 60% of the player base...and then it's out of stock for more or less the last six months straight. There's only going to be one end to that, and it's not that competitive players are simply going to suck it up and not play them. People are even getting into recasting and 3D printing plastic, which they didn't used to do, because GW can't even keep its plastic range in stock and, again, competitive players aren't going to simply sit on the sidelines because GW is out of DE stock when GW makes DE the strongest faction in the game.
Gert wrote: Firstly for me, it's a case of ease of access.
For a 3d printed army I need to get a 3d printer, a PC/laptop (I might have that already but some people don't), find the files I want or I need to learn to create said files, then I need to learn how to do 3d printing, then I need to wait for either the parts or the model to print.
For GW stuff I go to a store or the webstore and buy the models.
3d printing isn't exactly brilliant for bringing new folks into the hobby.
This is the most "new thing bad" post I've read in a while.
Its very easy to reverse it completely, watch:
Firstly for me, it's a case of ease of access.
For a kitbashed army I need to get lots of kits, a bunch of tools (I might have that already but some people don't), find the parts I want or I need to learn to sculpt said parts from greenstuff, then I need to learn how to modify joints or parts without destroying them, then I need to actually sit down and make the model.
For 3D printing stuff I go to a website and buy the print.
Kitbashing isn't exactly brilliant for bringing new folks into the hobby.
Not to mention this is GW, so the cost of a starter 3D printer is about the same as the kits you'd need to buy to start kitbashing. I'd argue that anyone wanting to get into Warhammer would actually be BETTER buying a 3D printer as it's cheaper in the long run to find out if you enjoy the game or not. You can print a whole 2000pts army at a fraction of the cost of buying actual GW stuff.
One of my opponents in the Adepticon 2018 team tournament was using 3rd party Guardsman models, and no one batted an eye (and why should they, the models looked amazing!). Hell, I myself was using AoS Khorne Bloodreavers instead of actual Khorne Berzerkers, and they specifically allowed it. And Adepticon is a major event for 40k. So I would think if a big event like that is cool with 3rd party models, they'd be cool with 3d printed stuff as well. As long as the models are easy to identify and are the right size (to avoid any modelling for advantage concerns), nobody should care. If a TO has an issue with 3rd party/3d printed models, they are probably just a "GW White Knight" or an asshat and you shouldn't want to go to their event.
Personally I think 3d printing is one of the coolest technologies to be developed in recent years and is truly a game changer for the miniature wargaming hobby as a whole. It'll certainly be interesting to see where things go with it. I don't think companies like GW will completely switch to selling only STL files; they'll still have premade models available for those who don't have a 3d printer at home or who just don't want to take the time to print a ton of models (because at 4+ hours per print, it could take a while to print an entire army unless your printer has a pretty large buildplate).
The same thing is happening in my group/club: out of 70-80 members the number of 3D printers went from 0 a couple of years ago to almost 10 now.
We don't all play 40K (roughly half of us), so we print a lot of hobby related stuff for a lot of different games. Terrain, miniatures, tokens, bits, ...
Being part of a large group with some very experienced hobbyists (and proper artists) means that the sky is the limit.
The big push towards 3D printing wasn't caused by the lack of supply and competitive meta, but due to ever increasing prices and simple curiosity.
It's a hobby by itself and at the same time it's a great tool for the miniatures hobby we love.
My club is not part of a FLGS as we have our own venue with a gaming room and a hobby room, so there's no FLGS owner frowning on us for not buying official products and helping him profit off that.
Recasts were and still are very common in the club, as there never was a stigma for not using official stuff, but now 3D printing is definitely becoming a big thing.
As for what I personally print: despite having almost 10k points of official Tau models, I'm buying and printing STLs of alternative sculpts because they look amazing. Some files, especially the "premium" ones from patreons and third party sculptors, are on par or even better than original sculpts.
With the cheapest printer on the market ($170 one), using the most detailed resolution available, you can get incredibly detailed models with no print lines. Better looking models for a fraction of the price.
Do I still buy original models? Yes, there are some GW models that I like and I want to add to my existing projects. Even at club level we routinely put in group orders for official products, from various retailers.
But 3D printed ones are up there in terms of quality, the deciding factor is the looks. I just get the model I like more, either buying it or printing it myself.
Also most of the events here don't ban conversions and unofficial models (like 3D printed ones), just like they don't prevent you to play your blue marines as salamanders. As long as there's no modelling for advantage (ie the sizes and the bases are correct) and the loadout is not confusing, you're free to do whatever you want.
In terms of accessibility, there will most likely be a lot of people that don’t want to get their own printer, but as market penetration continues it will get more and more likely that everyone who games will know someone who has one, and can ask a favour and drop a bottle of resin.
Our local shop has 3d printers now, all legit sales.
Lots of terrain :0 it’s kind of amazing, can have basically anything I wanted printed off faster than GW could send to me.
Since my printer is too tiny for some things it’s been really convenient.
For RPGs being able to make characters, then have minis all custom made and ready to paint for the week after is just so crazy I still not used to it.
Gert wrote: Firstly for me, it's a case of ease of access.
For a 3d printed army I need to get a 3d printer, a PC/laptop (I might have that already but some people don't), find the files I want or I need to learn to create said files, then I need to learn how to do 3d printing, then I need to wait for either the parts or the model to print.
For GW stuff I go to a store or the webstore and buy the models.
3d printing isn't exactly brilliant for bringing new folks into the hobby.
This is the most "new thing bad" post I've read in a while.
Its very easy to reverse it completely, watch:
Firstly for me, it's a case of ease of access.
For a kitbashed army I need to get lots of kits, a bunch of tools (I might have that already but some people don't), find the parts I want or I need to learn to sculpt said parts from greenstuff, then I need to learn how to modify joints or parts without destroying them, then I need to actually sit down and make the model.
For 3D printing stuff I go to a website and buy the print.
Kitbashing isn't exactly brilliant for bringing new folks into the hobby.
Not to mention this is GW, so the cost of a starter 3D printer is about the same as the kits you'd need to buy to start kitbashing. I'd argue that anyone wanting to get into Warhammer would actually be BETTER buying a 3D printer as it's cheaper in the long run to find out if you enjoy the game or not. You can print a whole 2000pts army at a fraction of the cost of buying actual GW stuff.
You've quoted Gert and massively misrepresented them by choosing that a whole army needs kitbashing, Gert refers to simply buying an assembling an army and I'm in agreement with them. I'd need to shell out a few hundred upfront, have an expensive tool I'm reticent to use for fear of damaging, learn a whole new hobby and on top of that my other half freaks out about electrical items being left on overnight if it needs a long print, never mind the noise and I've a small house so no appropriate place to leave it running.
Conversely I could spend my usual £30 or so (if that) a month on proper kits/used items and have no hassle.
Regards the OP, I don't think 3d printing is the issue here. The lazy WAAC flavour of the month players you're encountering who likely have only been previously held back by not wanting to shell out the money are. Simplest way round it is enforce a painted to play rule (I know, I'll get whined at for this), that way they can force hop and print to their hearts content but then they can't slam down endless forces of grey resin to match the online meta.
I got a 3D printer last year, and I've been using it mostly to print out things that are either no longer available (FASA era Star Trek models), were never available (1/100 GI Joe/Cobra vehicles for Team Yankee), can't get a model of (German Ferdinand/Elephant in 1/56 scale) or are completely new units, such as a Tau Mako or Tau bikes.
However, my feeble attempts to create existing models (1/56 M3 half-tracks), have so far given me the impression that if a model does exist, that in most cases, I'd rather go out and buy it, rather than try and hunt down a 3D print version of it.
I won't say it's been easy to set up and print, but it's been relatively fun and each model that successfully comes off the printer gives me as much of a rush as buying a new model kit off the shelf. It's not for everyone, just another level to the hobby like assembly, paint and play.
Turnip Jedi wrote: It's fine, the genie is well and truly out of the bottle and even with a C&D team going all out they can't beat the internet
I can see GW next knee-jerk reaction being leaning on the bigger events to bend to their no printed toys whims, cos stupid is as stupid does
In Flames of War and SW Legion the 3D printing minis are getting a lot of traction... The pandemic has probably been a turning point for this type of tech in the tabletop gamming scene... Hard to tell if this will wreck GW business model... But its certainly a mayor challenge.
Turnip Jedi wrote: It's fine, the genie is well and truly out of the bottle and even with a C&D team going all out they can't beat the internet
I can see GW next knee-jerk reaction being leaning on the bigger events to bend to their no printed toys whims, cos stupid is as stupid does
In Flames of War and SW Legion the 3D printing minis are getting a lot of traction... The pandemic has probably been a turning point for this type of tech in the tabletop gamming scene... Hard to tell if this will wreck GW business model... But its certainly a mayor challenge.
It won't wreck the business model, but in 10 years or so it might be prevalent enough they need to do something to get in on the action. At the moment even if it were a threat I'd wager the minority of people have a high enough quality printer and those selling 3rd party items on etsy etc. are often not much cheaper than GW kits from what I've seen.
Whilst there is of course potential to 3D printing, as it’s become more prevalent (I now know quite a few people with the setup for it). But, GW continue to post record takings and profits.
Which would rather suggest the appetite to just 3D print an army is somewhat limited.
The friends who have the kit aren’t printing knock-offs either. Rather, they’re going for completely different models, with no particular gaming purpose intended or in mind.
So at the moment, it seems 33D printing isn’t the threat many might think.
As time progresses, who can tell what will happen? 3D printing is obviously useful to society. But how useful? Are most households going to buy one, on the off chance they might need some doohicky in the future? Even if the price comes right down, how many households will feel the need for such kit?
It does seem entirely possible that GW will eventually sell stl files for their kits. We already know they’ve been using rapid prototyping for sculpts for a good while now. Thinking back, since at least the early 2000’s to the best of my knowledge. So claims they’re just sticking their head in the sand don’t seem to hold water. They adopted it well before the community did, and will no doubt be following it as it progresses.
I also query exactly what it is people are printing. Is it wholesale armies? Or just bits and add-on parts to customise.
Certainly the Facebook based trading groups in my circle don’t allow 3D prints or recasts, or the promotion thereof. That’s not a sucking up to GW, but instead protecting folks from being ripped off.
It’s a similar zero tolerance approach to repro in Star Wars Vintage trading. On the one hand, repro weapons and bits hold an appeal. They allow someone on a tighter budget to complete figures in their collection. But, on the other? They devalue the genuine article. Consider. I might sell a repro blaster or staff in good faith. No pretence that it’s repro, no claim that it’s original. However, the person I sell it to might be somewhat less scrupulous, and start selling them on (at a decent profit) as genuine originals.
As of now, 3D printing, especially with resin is still something alot of people are concerned about, especially in regards of the material in use.
Also space meets air and price for a full setup.
that being said, a lot of the increased earnings so far are based upon the monopolistic position of GW and the increased pricing, being contrasted by a somewhat inflexible demand.
3d Printing makes that demand more flexible and the more accessible it becomes the more flexible that demand will become.
Sorry, I don’t agree GW’s profits are solely due to price rises.
It’s just not supported by their sales figures, as published at six month intervals. In the year to May 2021, they saw a 31% increase in sales. Yet, there’s been no across the board 31% increase in prices.
Yes, some of that increase will be down to price increases, as will the knock on effect to their overall profit margin (especially if their production costs haven’t increased by the same percentage). But it simply cannot be the sole reason. Indeed, looking at the same financials (https://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Year-End-Presentation-2021-for-IR.pdf page 4) their costs increased £14m to £121m)
So with that in mind, I’m afraid the claim they’re only increasing takings because they’re increasing prices just doesn’t hold water.
Quoting May 2021 data from the lockdown were people picked up en mass the game since they had time is not excactly disproving my assertion and more pointing to a singular cause that increased sales.
Aka no, your singular instance has not proven anything other than 2021 being a fringe year as are all covid years for that matter.
Further considering the monolithical presence of GW in many areas their increasing sales and prices don't disprove its monopolistical position.
Fair points, I suspect a lot of the support for 3d is coming from those who fall outside the 3-5 year GW customer churn and are smidge burnt out on GWs " “All of this has happened before, and it will all happen again.” cycle along with 3d being a new(ish) thing so it might well take a couple of cycles to really start nudging their money flow
I dont follow GW finance stuff but has 3d been mention in any of their reports ?
Take a look back at their previous annual results. They’ve been making serious increases since at least 2016-2017.
2016-2017, 34% increase
2017-2018, 39% increase
2018-2019, 16% increase
2019-2020, 31% increase
2020-2021, 31% increase.
For clarity, in 2016-2017 their annual takings were £158,114,000. By 2020-2021, that’s increased year on year to £353,200,000.
That’s an increase well in excess that can be hand waved as simply the impact of higher prices. 233% increase in takings (I think, maths isn’t my strong suit), with no 233% increase in price tickets. (Actually a 223% increase, my error)
Fair points, I suspect a lot of the support for 3d is coming from those who fall outside the 3-5 year GW customer churn and are smidge burnt out on GWs " “All of this has happened before, and it will all happen again.” cycle along with 3d being a new(ish) thing so it might well take a couple of cycles to really start nudging their money flow
I dont follow GW finance stuff but has 3d been mention in any of their reports ?
Mentioned in passing, as something they’re aware of and are looking into, but don’t currently perceive as a particular threat, if memory serves.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Take a look back at their previous annual results. They’ve been making serious increases since at least 2016-2017.
2016-2017, 34% increase
2017-2018, 39% increase
2018-2019, 16% increase
2019-2020, 31% increase
2020-2021, 31% increase.
For clarity, in 2016-2017 their annual takings were £158,114,000. By 2020-2021, that’s increased year on year to £353,200,000.
That’s an increase well in excess that can be hand waved as simply the impact of higher prices. 233% increase in takings (I think, maths isn’t my strong suit), with no 233% increase in price tickets.
We know that GW pricing outpaces inflation.
We also know that GW prices only know to go up.
If you want to see the real sales (AS IN UNITS SOLD) increase you'd have to remove the pricing to see the instances.
Further economically speaking the increasing of prices AND maintenance or increase of custommer basis is only really possible if you HAVE an infelxible demand f.e. when you are the singular owner of a serivce aka "monopolistic".
My argument is that 3d Printing will over longterm (probably more midterm so about 5 years) make the demand curve a lot more flexible.
Thats less maths and more economic systems.
Overall further, assuming you regard the whole market in that system you will realise that GW is an outlier, as mentioned in another thread that initially Miniatures sales increased during lockdown but that only GW could maintain that increase which would mean that GW has a far more consolidated and isolated market position which in turn would go back to the monopoly upon IP basis with no direct competitor of its system that has the relevant enough size to force GW to adapt to the market.
Rather the market adapts to GW's stipulations including aswell higher prices or focus on the same scale as seen by recasters and companies like kromlech.
On the inflation thing. Last financial year GW’s running costs increased 14%. Inflation did not. So…yeah. They’re not pegging anything to inflation, nor are they required to.
I still don’t see GW just sitting on their hands regarding 3D printing. They’ve been using it for nearly (possibly more than) 20 years for rapid prototyping. And we know that at least FW 3D print their demo models.
That’s….that’s not a company about to be blindsided, is it? Will we see a GW branded 3D printer in the future? Well….probably! They might even invest in custom software, so you need their printer to produce their models.
Either way, 3D printing isn’t the deathknell of GW or war gaming in general.
Don't mistake their "oh its something we look into but of no concern" as reality but rather as a statement to specfic people with specific concerns . in this case to make investors comfortable and trust them in their purchase.. which to remind you, took a lot of money in a second production facility.
I also am not of the oppinion that 3d printing will destroy wargaming, to the contrary i think it will reinvigorate the hobby.
The first wargaming company that can work out a model that allows them to their 3d files and still make a profit is going to make a killing.
All wargaming companies have struggled with distro and production rates over the last few years. That's why so many have turned to kickstarter. Not as a cash raiser, but as a distro and production channel.
If a company could sell you a licence to print x amount of a product at a good rate then they would be quids in.
If anyone can do that, just by their sheer size and available capital for investment, it’s probably GW.
Whether there’s even a workable model within that idea is for far wiser and better informed minds than my own.
Though if they can make something of it propriety, it seems entirely possible they could lease that technology to other companies for added revenue streams (like Nintendo with their cartridges in days of yore? Well, kind of. It’s not a great analogy but it’s what I’ve got for now!)
GWs prices are high because their production costs are high. Their expansion of production facilities in nottingham cost them a lot of money and when you compare that investment with the fact that an amateur hobbyist with a $300 resin printer can achieve basically indistinguishable quality prints of STL files purchased off gumroad, it is definitely a concern that has been raised in an internal powerpoint presentation at some point.
GW also demonstrated multiple times that their approach to technology is definitely sub-par, to put it kindly.
The 40K app, the AoS app, digital versions of codices, the warehousing debacle that is going on for months now...
All examples of how they are clueless and not willing to splash the necessary money to get things done properly. It's not a secret they tend to do everything in-house and not by commissioning the job to external companies.
3D printing prototypes from a STL file you modeled yourself does not require much know how, I learned to do it myself over a couple of days.
Designing and launching a product line of 3D printers with proprietary technology that allows you to sell STL files and combat piracy at the same time is entirely another thing.
I'm not so sure. We haven't seen a GW branded airbrush yet (I'm ignoring the hand flamer thing), and the most common reason given by GW staff is they don't want the hassle of 'supporting' them. I would guess the same would apply to 3D printers.
Sim-Life wrote: This is the most "new thing bad" post I've read in a while.
Its very easy to reverse it completely, watch:
Spoiler:
Firstly for me, it's a case of ease of access.
For a kitbashed army I need to get lots of kits, a bunch of tools (I might have that already but some people don't), find the parts I want or I need to learn to sculpt said parts from greenstuff, then I need to learn how to modify joints or parts without destroying them, then I need to actually sit down and make the model.
For 3D printing stuff, I go to a website and buy the print.
Kitbashing isn't exactly brilliant for bringing new folks into the hobby.
That's not what I said, as someone else has already pointed out. My points about ease of access and kitbashing were entirely separate, indeed I made sure they were separate paragraphs in an attempt to avoid stuff like this.
Not to mention this is GW, so the cost of a starter 3D printer is about the same as the kits you'd need to buy to start kitbashing.
Probably but also not relevant to the specific point of ease of access. If you'd properly read my post you'd see that I say kitbashing and converting is a challenge, i.e. not something I'd expect a beginner to do.
But on the topic of cost, let's take a look at a beginner.
Drukhari (arguably the most competitive army so as to stay vaguely on-topic). The Combat Patrol costs £85. A basic 3 colour scheme, let's say Contrast to make it a bit easier, which is £12.50 for the spray and £14.25 for 3 contrast paints, then £4.75 for a basing material, and a pot of glue for £4.50. I'll include the "Essential Citadel Brush Selection" as well which is £34.45. So we're currently sitting on £155.45 with everything I need to start my army.
A 3d printer seems to cost at the low point, £140-ish, then I need to get files, get printing material and learn to use the printer. I've almost spent as much as what I spent on GW stuff and I have no models, paints or brushes.
I'd argue that anyone wanting to get into Warhammer would actually be BETTER buying a 3D printer as it's cheaper in the long run to find out if you enjoy the game or not. You can print a whole 2000pts army at a fraction of the cost of buying actual GW stuff.
A lot of people who get into Warhammer are teenagers and from personal experience, I highly doubt either parents or the teens themselves are going to entertain the idea of a 3d printer.
In general, I'm quite disappointed by this post because it encapsulates the response I get when I say 3d printing isn't superior to buying GW products. I'm not saying everyone should be loyal to GW and only buy their products and I never will but it doesn't matter what I say because people always read it that way.
At my FLGS the consensus is "if we can't get it from the store and we can't get it from GW, we'll get it 3D printed." Most recently this came up during a discussion of the unavailability of Forge World models. Some people also print a lot of custom parts or models for their armies.
Only have one 3D printed model myself - a custom female Culexus assassin. Cool model, great detail, high quality cured resin.
Most people don't have 3D printers, but everyone knows how to get in touch with someone who does.
Not to mention this is GW, so the cost of a starter 3D printer is about the same as the kits you'd need to buy to start kitbashing.
Probably but also not relevant to the specific point of ease of access. If you'd properly read my post you'd see that I say kitbashing and converting is a challenge, i.e. not something I'd expect a beginner to do.
But on the topic of cost, let's take a look at a beginner.
Drukhari (arguably the most competitive army so as to stay vaguely on-topic). The Combat Patrol costs £85. A basic 3 colour scheme, let's say Contrast to make it a bit easier, which is £12.50 for the spray and £14.25 for 3 contrast paints, then £4.75 for a basing material, and a pot of glue for £4.50. I'll include the "Essential Citadel Brush Selection" as well which is £34.45. So we're currently sitting on £155.45 with everything I need to start my army.
A 3d printer seems to cost at the low point, £140-ish, then I need to get files, get printing material and learn to use the printer. I've almost spent as much as what I spent on GW stuff and I have no models, paints or brushes.
You need the paints and brushes regardless of the model source.
A good current gen resin 3D printer costs about £200, plus another £100 or so on tools, post processing kit and protective consumables.
The combat patrol box comes with 18 customisable models and includes a pair of identical light vehicles. You can get sets of 10 or so STLs, including light vehicles, for £10. There are a range of army deals for sci-fi themed forces for about £40 that tend to provide 30 to 60 individual sculpts. The ability for 3D models to be mirrored can stretch this even further.
Allowing for print failures and supports, you can easily get 50 or so 32mm scale minis out of a litre of resin. So if you add all the expense into the first equivalent batch, then printing effectively costs £400 for 50 models. 50 models coming from 3x GW combat patrol costs £255. the thing is, though, that the next 50 printed models costs about £50, if you buy a new set of STLs and new resin, while the next 50 GW models still costs you £255.
There is a sharp up front cost, but then the return on investment comes back really quickly.
Then of course, at some point the the printer will fail and need replacement which changes the dynamic again.
Flinty wrote: You need the paints and brushes regardless of the model source.
I was trying to cover all my bases with the paint+tools cost which I actually still calculated wrong but also could have made better choices with. I mean there's like 6 beginners modeling kits and I just forgot they existed
The combat patrol box comes with 18 customisable models and includes a pair of identical light vehicles. You can get sets of 10 or so STLs, including light vehicles, for £10. There are a range of army deals for sci-fi themed forces for about £40 that tend to provide .
Allowing for print failures and supports, you can easily get 50 or so 32mm scale minis out of a litre of resin. So if you add all the expense into the first equivalent batch, then printing effectively costs £400 for 50 models. 50 models coming from 3x GW combat patrol costs £255. the thing is, though, that the next 50 printed models costs about £50, if you buy a new set of STLs and new resin, while the next 50 GW models still costs you £255.
I've found that in many cases taking multiple CP boxes isn't an "optimal" way to build an army and I think Durkhari might actually be the only exception so far IMO.
But my main point was that even if we ignore the costs of either a printer or an army from GW, if I buy from GW I don't have to wait for anything before I begin (except maybe delivery times but I'm ignoring that in this case). All I need to do is open the box and start building models which isn't the case with 3d printing.
Plus, the investment of the printer is only worth it if you know for sure you're going to be doing Warhammer for more than one army/tournament/whatever. If I buy a CP box and find out I actually hate the game then £85 isn't that big of a sink compared to £300+.
Again, people can do what they want, I'm not here to judge. As long as we can have civil discussion like this instead of hyperbolic nonsense and insults just because I don't think 3d printing is the bee's knees.
But model prep and print time is equivalent to delivery time. You can probably get your hands on the plastic more quickly if you live in a city with a GW store, but otherwise, its overnight delivery in both cases. If you have settings dialled in nicely, then model prep on 3D printing is much quicker than dealing with plastic sprues. For GW models you need to clip stuff off sprues then glue small pieces of plastic together. For printed models, you can spend basically the same time fiddling with pose, or changing weapons in modelling software. Print support removal should be as easy as peeling the model off the build plate.
I think I have a very long winded way of saying that the time from purchase to completion of a model ready for painting is similar between traditional GW models and 3D printing.
Definately not trying to say that there is only 1 way to do things, or either way in particular is technically better, but I don't think that, in practice, there is as much difference between the methods as it may seem. Its just the workflow is different.
Also if you find you don't like either way, then second hand nearly-new printers will fetch a good price on e-bay, just as GW models will
Flinty wrote: You need the paints and brushes regardless of the model source.
I was trying to cover all my bases with the paint+tools cost which I actually still calculated wrong but also could have made better choices with. I mean there's like 6 beginners modeling kits and I just forgot they existed
The combat patrol box comes with 18 customisable models and includes a pair of identical light vehicles. You can get sets of 10 or so STLs, including light vehicles, for £10. There are a range of army deals for sci-fi themed forces for about £40 that tend to provide .
Allowing for print failures and supports, you can easily get 50 or so 32mm scale minis out of a litre of resin. So if you add all the expense into the first equivalent batch, then printing effectively costs £400 for 50 models. 50 models coming from 3x GW combat patrol costs £255. the thing is, though, that the next 50 printed models costs about £50, if you buy a new set of STLs and new resin, while the next 50 GW models still costs you £255.
I've found that in many cases taking multiple CP boxes isn't an "optimal" way to build an army and I think Durkhari might actually be the only exception so far IMO.
But my main point was that even if we ignore the costs of either a printer or an army from GW, if I buy from GW I don't have to wait for anything before I begin (except maybe delivery times but I'm ignoring that in this case). All I need to do is open the box and start building models which isn't the case with 3d printing.
Plus, the investment of the printer is only worth it if you know for sure you're going to be doing Warhammer for more than one army/tournament/whatever. If I buy a CP box and find out I actually hate the game then £85 isn't that big of a sink compared to £300+.
Again, people can do what they want, I'm not here to judge. As long as we can have civil discussion like this instead of hyperbolic nonsense and insults just because I don't think 3d printing is the bee's knees.
Unless you happen to also enjoy....
-making custom components for your board games
-making customized miniatures to perfectly represent your DnD characters/party
-printing up cool monsters/creatures for your RPG games
-playing any number of historical games, where miniatures are completely not controlled by any copyright issues, and are generally either cheap or free
-doing any kind of digital art that would be cooler if given physical form
any kind of big box, or any combat patrol+the codex for the faction you want to play is, at this point, basically identical to the startup cost of buying an entire new resin printer. My new kill team box actually cost me *exactly* the same amount my printer did. People can generally sustain a ~200$ investment for hobbies they enjoy, otherwise nobody would have, like TVs or video game consoles or sporting equipment. The barrier in the way of 3d printing is 100% the learning curve and the fact that you have to know how to use PPE. Honestly I dont really see it as any different at all to say airbrushing, which has become more and more entrenched within miniature painting hobby groups.
I do wonder if 3D printing models is set to become a hobby unto itself.
Me? I love assembling kits. I find it immensely satisfying, even with swapping bits around to do even basic conversions. Yes some 3D prints are a collection of parts, but to my mind at least it’s just not quite the same.
At this point virtually the only things I 3D print for 40K are stuff I have designed myself that supplement existing kits: replacement turrets, guns, iconography to put on doors, stuff like that.
Depends. If it's an original design used as a proxy then sure but not if it's a printout of a 3d scan of a regular model.
3d scanning technology really isn't there to create anything close to what you're describing. If you've seen 3d printed models that are 'exact replicas' of gw models, they're basically not ever something where a guy took a model and popped it in a box or waved a wand at it and got a scanned copy. What they're doing is using an existing model as a reference, and using a digital sculpting program to make a replica - typically not actually an exact replica.
In fact, most often I see the things people point out as 'exact replicas and therefore piracy that should not be allowed' as presenting me as a modeler with something that I couldn't actually purchase from Games Workshop.
For example, Games Workshop only sells Wracks in 5 poses, which are all standing, or walking slowly forward, all with their arms down at their sides, all of them male. If I want wracks doing anything else, I bascally have to sculpt my own miniatures because i'd have to be reposing the torso and legs that are wearing robes, so they're a big solid chunk - it's not something you can do with a bit of "legal, A-OK purchasing extra GWTM models TM and cutting and chopping and screwing them"
They also only sell Eldar guardians that are standing stock-stationary, in unnatural looking horse riding poses, with giant ugly mold lines right up the butt crack and across the shoulders. If I care about that aesthetic detail, and I do, then a 3rd party modeler who made something similar to a Guardian but, to me, far better and more natural looking, I'm not simply paying them less for the same product I would otherwise have purchased from Games Workshop. I'm paying them for something I've AVOIDED paying games workshop for for years, because the games workshop 'geniune article' always has looked like trash to me.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I do wonder if 3D printing models is set to become a hobby unto itself.
Me? I love assembling kits. I find it immensely satisfying, even with swapping bits around to do even basic conversions. Yes some 3D prints are a collection of parts, but to my mind at least it’s just not quite the same.
it most definitely already has.
I completely understand the joy in assembling kits - the main problem im having presently is that it appears to be a joy GW is incredibly intent on removing for me. I love having a little pile of legs, a litlte pile of heads, a little pile of arms and bodies and deciding how I want MY guys to look, with a healthy dose of spare bits from my bits box. But, if that pleasure is removed by GW making kits that only go together one way, the joy of the things that I can do digitally that I can't do physically - like rigging up a model with virtual joints so i can perfectly manipulate it into the exact pose I want it to have - become more obvious.
It’ll depend on who organised the event, and who is sponsoring it.
GW are “notoriously tough” on only allowing their own models to be used on their own turf. Be it your local store, Warhammer World or a tournament GW put on elsewhere.
That’s…not at all unusual. Like. At all. The quick analogy is picking up your Burger King, then expecting to be able to eat it in the McDonalds across the road. They won’t have it, because those resources are for their customers.
So it’s not some kind of heavy handed bully boy behaviour. It’s just basic marketing and that.
If GW are sponsoring an otherwise independent event? They might well have a “yeah but our models only” clause as part of the sponsorship agreement.
If it’s entirely independent? Take it up with the organiser, just respect that their word, for whatever reasons might be behind it, is final. Their show, their rules.
If they do allow it, nobody who bought their army from the source really has an excuse to get salty, unless the 3D printed imitations are modelled for advantage (such as say, Imperial Knight analogues an inch and a half shorter than the retail one). Because just as someone who wants to use 3D printed analogues has no right to be salty if they’re told no, you can’t get salty going into an event knowing it’s a yes to 3D printed analogues.
I completely understand the joy in assembling kits - the main problem im having presently is that it appears to be a joy GW is incredibly intent on removing for me. I love having a little pile of legs, a litlte pile of heads, a little pile of arms and bodies and deciding how I want MY guys to look, with a healthy dose of spare bits from my bits box. But, if that pleasure is removed by GW making kits that only go together one way. . .
If they do allow it, nobody who bought their army from the source really has an excuse to get salty, unless the 3D printed imitations are modelled for advantage (such as say, Imperial Knight analogues an inch and a half shorter than the retail one). Because just as someone who wants to use 3D printed analogues has no right to be salty if they’re told no, you can’t get salty going into an event knowing it’s a yes to 3D printed analogues.
How do they check it though? If the models are painted they look the same FW models look, and judges are not allowed to damage or dissassemble models just to check if they are made from GW resin or something else.
I can imagine it being a problem if someone turns up at a GW sponsored even with an army full of Kromlech or Artel models or parts. But otherwise if someone doesn't brag about it himself, the orgenisers can't really do much about it. I mean they can't just start weighting models, specially when models have scenic bases or have magnets and pins to keep them whole.
How do they check it though? If the models are painted they look the same FW models look, and judges are not allowed to damage or dissassemble models just to check if they are made from GW resin or something else.
How do they check? Easy. REAL FW models are warped.
If they do allow it, nobody who bought their army from the source really has an excuse to get salty, unless the 3D printed imitations are modelled for advantage (such as say, Imperial Knight analogues an inch and a half shorter than the retail one). Because just as someone who wants to use 3D printed analogues has no right to be salty if they’re told no, you can’t get salty going into an event knowing it’s a yes to 3D printed analogues.
How do they check it though? If the models are painted they look the same FW models look, and judges are not allowed to damage or dissassemble models just to check if they are made from GW resin or something else.
I can imagine it being a problem if someone turns up at a GW sponsored even with an army full of Kromlech or Artel models or parts. But otherwise if someone doesn't brag about it himself, the orgenisers can't really do much about it. I mean they can't just start weighting models, specially when models have scenic bases or have magnets and pins to keep them whole.
They can't check for it aside from looking at the model. If someone showed up with a 3D printed model that looks and feels identical to a GW model, GW's employees/volunteers would have no way to tell.
Some 3D prints are very close to being at that level. Right now you're more likely to skate by with a resin recast than a 3D printed model.
No it doesn't. Saying that 3D printing is akin to piracy is like saying PDF files are akin to piracy because some people use them to pirate documents.
3D printing is a method, nothing more.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: GW are “notoriously tough” on only allowing their own models to be used on their own turf. Be it your local store, Warhammer World or a tournament GW put on elsewhere.
That’s…not at all unusual. Like. At all. The quick analogy is picking up your Burger King, then expecting to be able to eat it in the McDonalds across the road. They won’t have it, because those resources are for their customers.
So it’s not some kind of heavy handed bully boy behaviour. It’s just basic marketing and that.
Well, I'm sorry, but GW is going to have to get with the program quick-smart if they want to avoid falling behind.
For my Primaris Marines I'm going to get custom shoulder pads for them with my Chapter's icon. They'll be 3D printed. To GW this is a big no-no, but that only shows how stupid/stupidly out of touch they are. It's not like the models are 3D printed - they're still all GW kits - but they don't make the one thing I need to complete them: proper shoulder pads.
They want to act like it's some big infringement and violation of their policy to do that.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: When a large model is my hypothetical inch and a half shorter than the retail?
And you think the people making these 3D printed files haven't tested them for scale against the real thing?
You think someone's going to show up with a Contemptor that's somehow 10% larger than a real one and wonder "How did I not notice?".
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: When a large model is my hypothetical inch and a half shorter than the retail?
And you think the people making these 3D printed files haven't tested them for scale against the real thing?
You think someone's going to show up with a Contemptor that's somehow 10% larger than a real one and wonder "How did I not notice?".
*cough*....It might be the most common thing I feth up, lol. my first successful print is now known as "The Swole Gobbo" because he's a head taller lol.
Because of COURSE my first model was going to be a single gretchin in a funny hat, I had "YoU wOuLdNt DoWnLoAd A gRoT" in my head the first time I thought of buying a printer.
the_scotsman wrote: *cough*....It might be the most common thing I feth up, lol. my first successful print is now known as "The Swole Gobbo" because he's a head taller lol.
Because of COURSE my first model was going to be a single gretchin in a funny hat, I had "YoU wOuLdNt DoWnLoAd A gRoT" in my head the first time I thought of buying a printer.
Oh I'm sure the mistake gets made - there are now three 3D printers in my group, and I know another friend who has a 4th one and they've all made that mistake - but it's not like you're going to show up to a store with your giant grot and pretend there's nothing wrong.
the_scotsman wrote: *cough*....It might be the most common thing I feth up, lol. my first successful print is now known as "The Swole Gobbo" because he's a head taller lol.
Because of COURSE my first model was going to be a single gretchin in a funny hat, I had "YoU wOuLdNt DoWnLoAd A gRoT" in my head the first time I thought of buying a printer.
Oh I'm sure the mistake gets made - there are now three 3D printers in my group, and I know another friend who has a 4th one and they've all made that mistake - but it's not like you're going to show up to a store with your giant grot and pretend there's nothing wrong.
What are you talking about: of COURSE there is nothing wrong! That grot is just SWOLE! Body positivity, yo ;-)
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: GW are “notoriously tough” on only allowing their own models to be used on their own turf. Be it your local store, Warhammer World or a tournament GW put on elsewhere.
That’s…not at all unusual. Like. At all. The quick analogy is picking up your Burger King, then expecting to be able to eat it in the McDonalds across the road. They won’t have it, because those resources are for their customers.
So it’s not some kind of heavy handed bully boy behaviour. It’s just basic marketing and that.
Well, I'm sorry, but GW is going to have to get with the program quick-smart if they want to avoid falling behind.
For my Primaris Marines I'm going to get custom shoulder pads for them with my Chapter's icon. They'll be 3D printed. To GW this is a big no-no, but that only shows how stupid/stupidly out of touch they are. It's not like the models are 3D printed - they're still all GW kits - but they don't make the one thing I need to complete them: proper shoulder pads.
They want to act like it's some big infringement and violation of their policy to do that.
Exactly. If I've already purchased gw models, but I want to add bits that gw doesn't make, what's the problem? Gw doesn't make what I want, they've already got my $$$ for the models, if they made those shoulder pads, or helmets, or whatever, I'd get them from them. But they don't. They've lost nothing. It's like GMC complaining about me adding custom wheels to my truck. I've already purchased the models, I can do what I want with them. I can understand gw not wanting people using knock offs of entire models, but bits?
Maybe this should be like bike moding. Most of the big companies like the fact, that people are upgrading and rebuilding the originals. In fact some pride themselfs on the fact, that they have a fan following which uses their products as a a base for personal projects.
Why couldn't GW say make money out of the fact that they make an army or armies, which are popular, because there is a ton of mods and upgrades kits for them, being done by the fans.
Because of COURSE my first model was going to be a single gretchin in a funny hat, I had "YoU wOuLdNt DoWnLoAd A gRoT" in my head the first time I thought of buying a printer.
Should print a little car for him just to complete the meme.
the_scotsman wrote: *cough*....It might be the most common thing I feth up, lol. my first successful print is now known as "The Swole Gobbo" because he's a head taller lol.
Because of COURSE my first model was going to be a single gretchin in a funny hat, I had "YoU wOuLdNt DoWnLoAd A gRoT" in my head the first time I thought of buying a printer.
Oh I'm sure the mistake gets made - there are now three 3D printers in my group, and I know another friend who has a 4th one and they've all made that mistake - but it's not like you're going to show up to a store with your giant grot and pretend there's nothing wrong.
oh, that grot actually has a special rule where nobody else in the squad fights, and The Swole Gobbo makes a bonus melee attack for every other gretchin in the unit that's within Engagement Range of an enemy model because he's showing off.
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Karol wrote: Maybe this should be like bike moding. Most of the big companies like the fact, that people are upgrading and rebuilding the originals. In fact some pride themselfs on the fact, that they have a fan following which uses their products as a a base for personal projects.
Why couldn't GW say make money out of the fact that they make an army or armies, which are popular, because there is a ton of mods and upgrades kits for them, being done by the fans.
No reason. In fact, they COULD have embraced customization kits and modding, and put out some kind of legal guide to 3rd party designers like
-replacement parts, so long as they do not replace the entire legs and torso of the original model, are allowable
-whole figures that come close enough to our IP to allow legal action will result in the model creator being served C+D and takedown notices
-replacement parts that adhere to the first clause but violate such and such a community policy (i.e. no models we consider 'harmful to our brand image' like swastika armband guardsman arms) will still be pursued legally
That would actually have allowed GW to AVOID several of the issues with their kits theyve historically run into, such as niche appeal sub-factions that they'd like to support but which aren't financially viable for them (guard regiments) and kit limitations where they often want a unit to have a bunch of different options but only have sprue space to fit one or even none of those weapons on the sprue.
Make it clear that third party designers either 100% toe the line, or 100% will face legal action against their entire business, so you don't get an eternal pushing of boundaries, and people stick to weapon options and aesthetic variants, and you'd absolutely have a nice, healthy market of niche third party creators basically enhancing what you can do with GW's model kits, which would drive sales toward GW.
cody.d. wrote: Okay, so what about the digital equivalent? Table Top Simulator. Do you think GW is going to crack down on that sooner or later?
I could see GW trying to crack down on the use of their models images in that yeah.
They might wait to see if it dies down on its own as countries open back up following vaccination and people get back to being able to play physically.
No reason. In fact, they COULD have embraced customization kits and modding, and put out some kind of legal guide to 3rd party designers like
Yeah like, no real life political stuff and other stuff that break what ever they think should break the ToS. I have no idea why they aren't doing it. The sales of bikes, and I think also cars. Don't drop just because there are groups of people that love to mod their stuff.
They could even be very precise about the stuff. Whole models not okey. Parts of models, like heads, shoulders , could be okey. The mod stuff would have to be self made, no cloning of a GW shoulder pad and puting a glyph on it calling it ones own design. Otherwise we get those wierd situations we have now, where someone with self made purity seal stamps is a scurge on the hobby. While someone who buys space elfs from Artel or Teutonic Space Knights from Kromlech is just fine.
No reason. In fact, they COULD have embraced customization kits and modding, and put out some kind of legal guide to 3rd party designers like
Yeah like, no real life political stuff and other stuff that break what ever they think should break the ToS. I have no idea why they aren't doing it. The sales of bikes, and I think also cars. Don't drop just because there are groups of people that love to mod their stuff.
They could even be very precise about the stuff. Whole models not okey. Parts of models, like heads, shoulders , could be okey. The mod stuff would have to be self made, no cloning of a GW shoulder pad and puting a glyph on it calling it ones own design. Otherwise we get those wierd situations we have now, where someone with self made purity seal stamps is a scurge on the hobby. While someone who buys space elfs from Artel or Teutonic Space Knights from Kromlech is just fine.
I'll be honest I dont actually see why cloning a GW shoulderpad and putting a glyph on it would actually harm gw in any way. As long as you can only buy the torso and legs from GW, you still gotta psend the exact same money even if you use zero shoulderpads from GW in the finished product. You can't buy 1/2 of a box of intercessors, GW gets the same money either way.
And unlike the situation with scalpers, rather than getting negative press and making money, GW gets to be 'new, better GW, under new management.' We KNOW how much people were DESPERATE to believe that with 8th edition, and "gw is a big legal bully that aggressively picks on the little guy" was part and parcel with their existing gakky reputation.
It has been a long time since I participated in any tourneys. One such was at my FLGS, but all WHFB. Since GW has such a tight rein on the tourneys, models and rules, maybe with players wanting to use more kitbashing/printed models other places not under GW control will be forced to relax their rules to allow this flexibility - the print revolution has been coming and it is definitely here.
Again, just to point out, small things are allowed as long as they weren't made for profit (presumably this means don't get famous off your stuff and sell it).
As long as you aren't advertising yourself, it should be fine.
But if you rock up with an army that's 50% 3d printed models then you'll get told to leave an official GW event.
MDSW wrote: It has been a long time since I participated in any tourneys. One such was at my FLGS, but all WHFB. Since GW has such a tight rein on the tourneys, models and rules, maybe with players wanting to use more kitbashing/printed models other places not under GW control will be forced to relax their rules to allow this flexibility - the print revolution has been coming and it is definitely here.
Nowhere outside of GW involved events has any guidelines or rules for 3d printed models beyond the usual "proxies/conversions must be ok'd" caveat as a standard. There is no print revolution, there isn't a "3d printed army using another games rules" tournament, there aren't any events I'm aware of encouraging it or promoting it particularly.
If you're referring to "I want to play 40k using GW rules and my 3d printed almost if not identical facsimiles of 40k models because I like them but don't want to pay for them", that then strays into that IP infringement and eventual piracy situation. That revolution ends up in either a dead game and hence wasted your printed army and the game you love so much you had to print an army for never receiving updates again, or bans/legal action.
The game is never dead though because the rule set is already published and released.
Lots of you are grabbing the wrong end of the stick here.
3d printing is offering a way for small, independent sculptors to create interesting designs and receive fair compensation for it.
Gamers, in turn, have the option of browsing tons of different designs as ways to bring unique aesthetics to their armies which add variety and flavour to the social aspect of tabletop gaming.
Framing independent designers and sculptors as some kind of parasitic leech on the glory of GWs genius model design completely ignores the history of how GW itself established market dominance (through creating designs inspired by other fantasy and sci-fi ideas).
There are certainly some egregious offenders out there, but from where I sit the vast majority of indie 3d sculptors are creating inventive and awesome new designs. GW will of course get their lawyers barking to stomp that out because that makes good business sense.
40k will never, ever be a competitive e-sports streaming game. The rules are simply too garbage for large audiences of casual viewers to find it fun to watch. And so the scare tactic of "if you use 3d printed models you cannot play the official gw tournaments!" is completely toothless. Good riddance, honestly. Enjoy getting milked for every last penny you got from GW marketing.
If all of you want to drink the kool-aid and go suffer in the "GW models only meta", please feel free. Those tournaments are un-fun and lifeless (with rules such as your space marines cant be ultramarines unless you paint them with GW ultramarine blue!).
Knock yourselves out with that. For the rest of us, we will continue enjoying the designs produced by small and independent creators, and feel good in supporting indie craftworkers getting paid for a trade they love!
Gregor Samsa wrote: The game is never dead though because the rule set is already published and released.
Lots of you are grabbing the wrong end of the stick here.
3d printing is offering a way for small, independent sculptors to create interesting designs and receive fair compensation for it.
Gamers, in turn, have the option of browsing tons of different designs as ways to bring unique aesthetics to their armies which add variety and flavour to the social aspect of tabletop gaming.
Framing independent designers and sculptors as some kind of parasitic leech on the glory of GWs genius model design completely ignores the history of how GW itself established market dominance (through creating designs inspired by other fantasy and sci-fi ideas).
There are certainly some egregious offenders out there, but from where I sit the vast majority of indie 3d sculptors are creating inventive and awesome new designs. GW will of course get their lawyers barking to stomp that out because that makes good business sense.
40k will never, ever be a competitive e-sports streaming game. The rules are simply too garbage for large audiences of casual viewers to find it fun to watch. And so the scare tactic of "if you use 3d printed models you cannot play the official gw tournaments!" is completely toothless. Good riddance, honestly. Enjoy getting milked for every last penny you got from GW marketing.
If all of you want to drink the kool-aid and go suffer in the "GW models only meta", please feel free. Those tournaments are un-fun and lifeless (with rules such as your space marines cant be ultramarines unless you paint them with GW ultramarine blue!).
Knock yourselves out with that. For the rest of us, we will continue enjoying the designs produced by small and independent creators, and feel good in supporting indie craftworkers getting paid for a trade they love!
That's a very confusing tirade.
You start off reasonably stating that 3d printing is a good way for lesser known sculptors and artists to receive notoriety and some pay, which is great. You've listed that adding character to an army or collection is good, all great so far.
We then segway to you making weird and wild accusations at faceless groups of people about stuff not relevant to the thread? It's perfectly fine for GW to host their events and to want you to use their models for their game. Don't like it? Don't go, seems simple, certainly not something to be angry at or even degrading to others about.
I just want to know which fictional group(s) you represent with your statements.
Edit: I'd hasten to add that yes it would be a dead game, you need opponents to play a game and people won't want to get involved in a game that isn't supported. You'll have a hard time finding a 5th ed opponent now for example and that's just an old edition of a currently successful game.
Edit: I'd hasten to add that yes it would be a dead game, you need opponents to play a game and people won't want to get involved in a game that isn't supported. You'll have a hard time finding a 5th ed opponent now for example and that's just an old edition of a currently successful game.
I suppose this might be a problem for those of you who lack friends. Or the ability to make friends. Or can't bring yourself to even speak to those you play with/others at the shop.
For the rest of us though? How often have you been talking to a fellow gamer at the shop & be it an RPG, minis game, or even some board game, someone's said something along the lines of "Yeah, I used to play ___. I still have my books/army/stuff up in the attic/storage/etc. Man, loved that game - but I haven't played that in ages. (fill in some reason)"
It's a pretty simple matter from that point to set up a game....
In the past few months? I've played Star Fleet Battles (some edition from the 90's), Flames of War 3e (the previous edition & substantially different from the current), Pathfinder 1e RPG (current is 2e) & WHFB3ed ed - a game that's not only technicaly oop (replaced by 3 editions of Sigmar), but 5! editions older than the most recent WHFB version.
Several years back the local shop ran a 1e D&D game. Those books went oop before most of the players involved were even born. Those new players didn't rely on us old guard to provide the books. They simply EBayed what they needed or got PDFs.
So if GW/40k died tomorrow? There'd be no problem getting games.
1) There's plenty of players heavily invested. Their stuff isn't going to just dissapear. They aren't simply going to chuck their stuff in the trash.
2) Real life XP leads me to expect that there'll be plenty who will have their books & minis for many years to come. We'll have plenty more of that "man, I used to play...." conversation in the coming decades.
3) Between Ebay etc, 3d printing, & PDFs? There'll never be a time that you won't be able to find the models/rules for whatever edition you all agree to play.
4) It's not that hard to draw in new players. All they need is to SEE games being played & people having fun.
the_scotsman wrote: *cough*....It might be the most common thing I feth up, lol. my first successful print is now known as "The Swole Gobbo" because he's a head taller lol.
Because of COURSE my first model was going to be a single gretchin in a funny hat, I had "YoU wOuLdNt DoWnLoAd A gRoT" in my head the first time I thought of buying a printer.
Oh I'm sure the mistake gets made - there are now three 3D printers in my group, and I know another friend who has a 4th one and they've all made that mistake - but it's not like you're going to show up to a store with your giant grot and pretend there's nothing wrong.
Again missed context from previous conversation.
My hypothetical inch and a half shorter Imperial Knight was in reference to people using 3D printing to model for advantage.
ccs wrote: How often have you been talking to a fellow gamer at the shop & be it an RPG, minis game, or even some board game, someone's said something along the lines of "Yeah, I used to play ___. I still have my books/army/stuff up in the attic/storage/etc. Man, loved that game - but I haven't played that in ages. (fill in some reason)"
A couple of years ago I looked at getting back into Battlefleet Gothic. I browsed my options for minis, and found that they basically amounted to recasts or ridiculously priced eBay minis. And, of course, these are twenty year old sculpts, so the official Hive Ship is still rather uninspired and the Tyranid Cruiser is still rearranged Warrior bits.
A week ago I got the idea to revisit Battlefleet Gothic with my resin printer. I took 3D model files from Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2 and printed them out, and I'm absolutely blown away by the results. Even with my suboptimal prints as I work out the best settings for this resin, the degree of detail here is amazing, as well as the ability to do undercuts (like all the little legs tucked under the Hive Ship) that could not be easily done with a conventional cast.
My wife likes the Eldar fleet, so I'm printing her some ships too. Why not? After all, it's only around a dollar or two worth of resin per print. If anyone else in my local group is interested in trying the game, I'll happily print them fleets as well. If I were to try to make adversarial fleets by buying models on eBay it would be a tremendous investment, but here it's just a modest expenditure of time, resin, and printer opportunity.
One of my buddies has an Elysian army, but it could really use more infantry. Unfortunately, FW no longer produces them. Fortunately, there are community-made 3D models matching the scale and style of Elysians that work perfectly. So he's printing out another couple of squads to round out his army, and our group is gearing up to play the 5th Ed Raid on Kastorel-Novem campaign with Elysians vs Orks. It doesn't matter that it's an edition that's no longer supported using models that no longer exist; we already have everything we need. After that, we're planning to give Halo: Ground Command a try. The game is by all metrics officially dead, but there's a dedicated community keeping it alive via 3D printing. When it costs pennies to print a 15mm mini, the barrier to entry is very low, as is the risk if it turns out we don't actually like the game.
As 3D printing improves, it has the potential to completely upend what we think of as a 'dead game'. When rules are available for free online- or someone in a group has the rulebook- and minis can be made for it on demand, the only thing you're missing is the constant drip-feed of new product to consume (and all the problems that go with it). I think this is a big deal for gaming, but we're only seeing the start of it because there still is a fair bit of tinkering needed with off-the-shelf resin printers. It's not yet plug-and-play, but with more printers that are essentially ready to go out of the box, more official documentation on settings for print/resin combos, and more pre-supported models that are ready to print, it's getting better every day. If someone comes up with a resin that produces good quality but doesn't require gloves, a respirator, and ventilation, we'll be nearly there.
To bring this all back to the topic of the thread, I expect GW's 'no 3D printing' policy to remain intact for events, just as they will continue to ban third-party miniatures. As well, we can already see the attitude towards conversions growing more restrictive over time- I'd never heard of the term 'modeling for advantage' ten years ago, let alone something that gets brought up every time a creative conversion or even pose alteration is proposed. In the long run, I can see this pushing towards a divide between casual play where anything goes (but GW will not want you using non-GW minis in their stores), and competitive play where you are expected to use GW models exactly as supplied with minimal conversion. The issues people bring up in regards to 3D printing, like changing the size of a model, are already things that you can do with conventional models, and I expect to see both treated similarly.
Edit: I'd hasten to add that yes it would be a dead game, you need opponents to play a game and people won't want to get involved in a game that isn't supported. You'll have a hard time finding a 5th ed opponent now for example and that's just an old edition of a currently successful game.
I suppose this might be a problem for those of you who lack friends. Or the ability to make friends. Or can't bring yourself to even speak to those you play with/others at the shop.
Spoiler:
For the rest of us though? How often have you been talking to a fellow gamer at the shop & be it an RPG, minis game, or even some board game, someone's said something along the lines of "Yeah, I used to play ___. I still have my books/army/stuff up in the attic/storage/etc. Man, loved that game - but I haven't played that in ages. (fill in some reason)"
It's a pretty simple matter from that point to set up a game....
In the past few months? I've played Star Fleet Battles (some edition from the 90's), Flames of War 3e (the previous edition & substantially different from the current), Pathfinder 1e RPG (current is 2e) & WHFB3ed ed - a game that's not only technicaly oop (replaced by 3 editions of Sigmar), but 5! editions older than the most recent WHFB version.
Several years back the local shop ran a 1e D&D game. Those books went oop before most of the players involved were even born. Those new players didn't rely on us old guard to provide the books. They simply EBayed what they needed or got PDFs.
So if GW/40k died tomorrow? There'd be no problem getting games.
1) There's plenty of players heavily invested. Their stuff isn't going to just dissapear. They aren't simply going to chuck their stuff in the trash.
2) Real life XP leads me to expect that there'll be plenty who will have their books & minis for many years to come. We'll have plenty more of that "man, I used to play...." conversation in the coming decades.
3) Between Ebay etc, 3d printing, & PDFs? There'll never be a time that you won't be able to find the models/rules for whatever edition you all agree to play.
4) It's not that hard to draw in new players. All they need is to SEE games being played & people having fun.
Beyond suggesting the social impaired might have difficulties, if you asked me to play BFG as mentioned above by catbarf, without personal access to a 3d printer it literally wouldn't be worth my time.
Your best bets are some people who just happen to have the stuff lying around or are willing to trawl around for odds and ends. If you approach most people and say "this game is now out of print, the company that made it has gone bust and there'll be no support ever", that's an instant turn off for someone, why do that instead of trying an actively supported game?
Dudeface wrote:If you approach most people and say "this game is now out of print, the company that made it has gone bust and there'll be no support ever", that's an instant turn off for someone, why do that instead of trying an actively supported game?
I'm curious- why?
As time goes on, I find myself tired of the constant churn imposed by new rules and new models and radical overhauls to the same game, and having to either keep up with a changing game (which may no longer have the characteristics you originally enjoyed) or find some small sect of similarly disenchanted grognards to play an old edition with.
The biggest issue with out of production games for me has been availability of minis. But stuff like Battletech or Horus Heresy, where models are available but new minis and new rules come out at a glacial pace, has been just fine. And 3D printing promises to make that sort of support available for any game.
H.B.M.C. wrote:"Is it possible to learn this power?" - Anakin Skywalker
It's seriously not hard at all nowadays. I went from zero 3D printer experience to getting tabletop-ready prints in a couple of days. If you go on Thingiverse or Cults3D there's a ton of content for Battlefleet Gothic specifically intended for printing.
Really, if you can get past the initial hurdles of handling toxic resin and getting your printer calibrated, you're 90% of the way there. I've also got some Imperials already done I'll be posting up in my project log soon.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Oh I know about Thingiverse and all that. I more meant extracting the 3D models from BFGA2.
I mean... AdMech ships. So many AdMech ships!
Oh! I found a Reddit post showing a five-step process involving four different pieces of commercial software to go from the Unreal engine files to printable .stls. But also someone else already did all that work for me (plus cleaning up the models to play nice with slicer software) and put it on Thingiverse, so I just downloaded that instead.
I'd suggest poking around Thingiverse. A user named ItalianMoose has made some great AdMech ships that aren't quite as detailed as the BFGA2 ones but are better suited to printing. There's also a bunch of great remixes of his work- here's one example.
To bring this all back to the topic of the thread, I expect GW's 'no 3D printing' policy to remain intact for events, just as they will continue to ban third-party miniatures. As well, we can already see the attitude towards conversions growing more restrictive over time- I'd never heard of the term 'modeling for advantage' ten years ago, let alone something that gets brought up every time a creative conversion or even pose alteration is proposed. In the long run, I can see this pushing towards a divide between casual play where anything goes (but GW will not want you using non-GW minis in their stores), and competitive play where you are expected to use GW models exactly as supplied with minimal conversion. The issues people bring up in regards to 3D printing, like changing the size of a model, are already things that you can do with conventional models, and I expect to see both treated similarly.
I'm also bullish on the prospect of 3D printing drastically changing this hobby, and anticipate a phase in the next ~10 years where GW tries to actively fight its encroachment (as dully perceived by them). That's just in their corporate DNA now -- they're institutionally reactionary, and have no shot of ever independently embracing/innovating a new technology or cultural phenomenon that comes around.
I'd expect a bunch of obnoxious proof-of-purchase requirements for people who want to play in "official" GW tournaments of the future. Like, you'll have to build your armylist in their official army builder app to submit it to a sanctioned tourney. Boxes of models will come with p-o-p codes that you need to input into your virtual collection. Or having those codes will unlock new stratagems or command points or whatever. The community reaction would be a bloodbath, but I don't think the company that did Finecast and then exploded Warhammer Fantasy Battles gives af.
btw if you'd never heard the phrase "modelling for advantage" that's just on you. 30 seconds of lazy googling:
I've seen that phrase/concept in use since at least 4th edition (and it was probably around earlier, I was just a more inattentive dabbler during my time playing 3rd).
Beyond suggesting the social impaired might have difficulties, if you asked me to play BFG as mentioned above by catbarf, without personal access to a 3d printer it literally wouldn't be worth my time.
So you're opposed to trying new (to you) games? even if you think they look like fun?
You do realize that you don't need personal access to a 3d printer, right? There's plenty of creators on Esty, Thingsverse, etc who're making this stuff & will print it for you. There's also companies who just do printing.
You're also mistaking playing the game with having the models. Believe me, BFG works just fine with tokens/pawns. It just looks cooler with actual minis.
If you like the game well enough THEN you look into how to source models for it.
Dudeface wrote: Your best bets are some people who just happen to have the stuff lying around or are willing to trawl around for odds and ends. If you approach most people and say "this game is now out of print, the company that made it has gone bust and there'll be no support ever", that's an instant turn off for someone, why do that instead of trying an actively supported game?
Well that's why you don't give them such a negative sales pitch.
As for the why concerning some oop game vs something currently supported by a company? Because I LIKE oop game X & would like to continue to play it. To do that I need other players. Sometimes even new players as I & my main circle of gaming friends aren't getting any younger and every few years there's a few less of us.
So if I want to play BFG, Man-O-War, any of the various versions of Epic, or even actual WHFB? I have to be a bit pro-active & recruit new interest in the oop games I enjoy.
Beyond suggesting the social impaired might have difficulties, if you asked me to play BFG as mentioned above by catbarf, without personal access to a 3d printer it literally wouldn't be worth my time.
So you're opposed to trying new (to you) games? even if you think they look like fun?
You do realize that you don't need personal access to a 3d printer, right? There's plenty of creators on Esty, Thingsverse, etc who're making this stuff & will print it for you. There's also companies who just do printing.
You're also mistaking playing the game with having the models. Believe me, BFG works just fine with tokens/pawns. It just looks cooler with actual minis.
If you like the game well enough THEN you look into how to source models for it.
The problem for many people is a combination of the value of their time and reticence to get into a game that isn't supported any more. A lot of people have very limited hobby time and would prefer to fill that time with a "known" experience. Using some of that valuable time on an unknown quantity is just not worth it for many people. The big draw of miniature games for a lot of people is the combination of the spectacle and the gameplay so using tokens would be an instant turn-off for many. There's a limit to how much random stuff people are willing to accumulate for various games as well. You might be able to get BFG ships on Etsy but combine that with the 3 or 4 other dead games people still have stuff for, plus various other bits and pieces and adding more to that pile may not be a top priority.
The reality is, for many people, playing a non-supported game is a non-starter. Lack of models, lack of enthusiasm from others and lack of time can all factor into it. It's not necessarily about lacking social skills or friends.
The reality is, for many people, playing a non-supported game is a non-starter. Lack of models, lack of enthusiasm from others and lack of time can all factor into it. It's not necessarily about lacking social skills or friends.
Pretty much. Even if it is a lack of friends or social skills, people who lack those things (and there are plenty who do, especially within less mainstream hobbies) aren't going to cultivate them in a vacuum and use those new friends and skills to start a group focused on out-of-production miniatures games.
In fact, it's more likely to go the other way around. Someone who doesn't have a lot of friends is going to have an easier time finding people to spend time with if they seek out an activity that a bunch of other people already want to do.
I've seen that phrase/concept in use since at least 4th edition (and it was probably around earlier, I was just a more inattentive dabbler during my time playing 3rd).
For what it is worth this phrase originated in 5th edition, and came along with the change to have the game switch to true line of sight. In previous editions targeting and line of sight were based on abstractions. I personally still prefer 2nd through 4th edition for exactly this reason.
When you are dealing with true line of sight, then all of a sudden there is a potential competitive advantage to what your models look like.... they have to be the right height and width so that they get all the appropriate benefits and penalties when determining sight. And so of course "modeling for advantage" entered the lexicon during 5th edition.
I've seen that phrase/concept in use since at least 4th edition (and it was probably around earlier, I was just a more inattentive dabbler during my time playing 3rd).
For what it is worth this phrase originated in 5th edition, and came along with the change to have the game switch to true line of sight. In previous editions targeting and line of sight were based on abstractions. I personally still prefer 2nd through 4th edition for exactly this reason.
When you are dealing with true line of sight, then all of a sudden there is a potential competitive advantage to what your models look like.... they have to be the right height and width so that they get all the appropriate benefits and penalties when determining sight. And so of course "modeling for advantage" entered the lexicon during 5th edition.
I don't think that's accurate, the phrase predates 5th.
I believe 4th edition measured LOS to <paraphrased> "the body, excluding wings, tails, weapons, banners, etc." right? Even in that era people would discuss, for example, kneeling models, and whether that would be MFA. Back then they weren't concerned about people drawing LOS to the tip of a gun... but if a model's entire body was at a different height from its army-mates, it would be harder to see.
4th also had the "block LOS to friendly models twice your height," yeah? I think I was reminded of that rule by one of your recent posts, actually. But it meant that giving a small model a more upright pose (or a large model a crouching pose) would change the list of things it could block or be blocked by. I remember stacking up all my Tyranids to see who could shield who.
Absolutely incredible! Some folk must be foaming from the mouth at this opportunity! I would imagine this job will get a significantly higher salary than what they paid the guy who designed adeptus titanicus and the reboot of blood bowl.
Beyond suggesting the social impaired might have difficulties, if you asked me to play BFG as mentioned above by catbarf, without personal access to a 3d printer it literally wouldn't be worth my time.
So you're opposed to trying new (to you) games? even if you think they look like fun?
You do realize that you don't need personal access to a 3d printer, right? There's plenty of creators on Esty, Thingsverse, etc who're making this stuff & will print it for you. There's also companies who just do printing.
You're also mistaking playing the game with having the models. Believe me, BFG works just fine with tokens/pawns. It just looks cooler with actual minis.
If you like the game well enough THEN you look into how to source models for it.
The problem for many people is a combination of the value of their time and reticence to get into a game that isn't supported any more. A lot of people have very limited hobby time and would prefer to fill that time with a "known" experience. Using some of that valuable time on an unknown quantity is just not worth it for many people. The big draw of miniature games for a lot of people is the combination of the spectacle and the gameplay so using tokens would be an instant turn-off for many. There's a limit to how much random stuff people are willing to accumulate for various games as well. You might be able to get BFG ships on Etsy but combine that with the 3 or 4 other dead games people still have stuff for, plus various other bits and pieces and adding more to that pile may not be a top priority.
The reality is, for many people, playing a non-supported game is a non-starter. Lack of models, lack of enthusiasm from others and lack of time can all factor into it. It's not necessarily about lacking social skills or friends.
People really underestimate just how MUCH time and motivation and how many friends you need to keep...pretty much anything going. I have 4 friends who all love board games and love playing DND (2 of them have watched literally nothing but youtube DND games for like the past year). We've been trying to get a campaign going for over a year now and haven't managed it (2 essential workers and 1 work from home meant 3/5ths of us worked MORE during lockdowns). Before that we'd had multiple campaigns fall apart due to scheduling issues. I can't even remember the last boardgame we played.
The same group I've been trying to get into miniature games but even with them liking the games, the number of games/hobby nights that get done is very small. We have Legion, MCP, Xwing, Sigmar, 40k, you name it, so far the only thing I can get any of them to play is MCP and that's because games are like...25 minutes a lot of the time.
Any kind of hobby, but miniatures games especially, lives and dies by their community. Rotating people in and keeping people engaged is HARD. Any game that doesn't have some kind of centralized organization pushing it, designing new content, etc, is going to rely entirely on people being absolute die-hard fans (and geographically nearby) to keep it going.
(TTS mitigates this somewhat by easing the geography issue but it's still a pretty limited platform).
Beyond suggesting the social impaired might have difficulties, if you asked me to play BFG as mentioned above by catbarf, without personal access to a 3d printer it literally wouldn't be worth my time.
So you're opposed to trying new (to you) games? even if you think they look like fun?
You do realize that you don't need personal access to a 3d printer, right? There's plenty of creators on Esty, Thingsverse, etc who're making this stuff & will print it for you. There's also companies who just do printing.
You're also mistaking playing the game with having the models. Believe me, BFG works just fine with tokens/pawns. It just looks cooler with actual minis.
If you like the game well enough THEN you look into how to source models for it.
The problem for many people is a combination of the value of their time and reticence to get into a game that isn't supported any more. A lot of people have very limited hobby time and would prefer to fill that time with a "known" experience. Using some of that valuable time on an unknown quantity is just not worth it for many people. The big draw of miniature games for a lot of people is the combination of the spectacle and the gameplay so using tokens would be an instant turn-off for many. There's a limit to how much random stuff people are willing to accumulate for various games as well. You might be able to get BFG ships on Etsy but combine that with the 3 or 4 other dead games people still have stuff for, plus various other bits and pieces and adding more to that pile may not be a top priority.
The reality is, for many people, playing a non-supported game is a non-starter. Lack of models, lack of enthusiasm from others and lack of time can all factor into it. It's not necessarily about lacking social skills or friends.
People really underestimate just how MUCH time and motivation and how many friends you need to keep...pretty much anything going. I have 4 friends who all love board games and love playing DND (2 of them have watched literally nothing but youtube DND games for like the past year). We've been trying to get a campaign going for over a year now and haven't managed it (2 essential workers and 1 work from home meant 3/5ths of us worked MORE during lockdowns). Before that we'd had multiple campaigns fall apart due to scheduling issues. I can't even remember the last boardgame we played.
The same group I've been trying to get into miniature games but even with them liking the games, the number of games/hobby nights that get done is very small. We have Legion, MCP, Xwing, Sigmar, 40k, you name it, so far the only thing I can get any of them to play is MCP and that's because games are like...25 minutes a lot of the time.
Any kind of hobby, but miniatures games especially, lives and dies by their community. Rotating people in and keeping people engaged is HARD. Any game that doesn't have some kind of centralized organization pushing it, designing new content, etc, is going to rely entirely on people being absolute die-hard fans (and geographically nearby) to keep it going.
(TTS mitigates this somewhat by easing the geography issue but it's still a pretty limited platform).
Thank you both for expanding on this very eloquently and I'm glad other have the same views and experiences. I wasn't overly fond of the concept that it simply boiled down to "go have more friends to press gang into stuff".
I get a couple of nights a month to game with a small child and a busy partner who often works evening as well, I'd rather use that for the games I'm able to actively pour my time into and (for lack of a better word) consume without having to scour the internet for obscure rules and 3rd party minis for unsupported games, that frankly neither I nor my opponent may actually have any prior knowledge of personally.
A good example was when a friend tried to drum up hype for titanicus. I played a few games and it's a cracking rules set, but getting a full 2nd set of scaled terrain and then the almost guilt of having the army I'd been working on for 40k just sitting collecting dust was enough to put me off using the limited time and resources I have. And that's with a live, slowly supported game.
I’m kind of at the other end. I also have limited time and kids and suchlike, and i rather enjoy collecting rule sets. The modelling side is nice too, but I rarely get the chance to play a game.
We have it on good authority that anyone who claimed Games Workshop's new IP rules were a precursor to increased legal action was a vitriolic, hateful fearmonger.
<<< Sorry for the ramble but this touches a couple different topics >>>
Yeah - 3d printing is the way of the future. Just like all technology it will continue to get better and cheaper. After market (now digital) foundries will get better - after market rule sets will get better. So where will that lead GW?
Thing is - GW/Citadel almost always had the best models and best castings (when they were paying attention). They absolutely blew away the fantasy miniatures of the time and had great Marines and Aliens...and then wait - They created a marketing machine to sell those models. First out of the back of a magazine, then in a huge catalogue that allowed for full customization, then blisters and boxes, then plastics, then the web...
The rule sets were just a way to sell the models, and became very popular, on the backs of the models, but are rarely the best in class. It was obvious in the 90's, with the releases of 40k and WHFB (2nd editions?) and the codex system that the base rules were OK but constantly amended so that people would buy more/new/different models. AKA - rules bloat....
Anyway - Where does that leave GW? Are the a rules company? Are they a content company (see a YouTube video released today about 40k lore as a direct rip off of Dune)? Or are they a Miniature company?
If they are a rules company.... as previously discussed they need to pay their writers/designers better to make a game that more people can access...
If they are a content company... they need to pay thier writers better and take a little more time and care with fleshing out the rest of the universe.
If they are a miniature company... they should be scared and I suspect they are and are very aware of what is happening now with the perfect storm of lockdown/technology/demand. They are profiteering while they can. I can actually see GW making/selling an all-in-one 3d print device that is equipped with "20 Models or 5 vehicles" and a cartridge recharge that includes the "new and improved GW designed Iyanden craftwrold eldar. Next month - unique Biel-Tan!" (think pay as you go phones) etc.. Honestly the idea of licensing with 3rd parties I can see that as well.
We are very quickly entering a time where someone can make a "One Page Rules" or Kit bash a set of rules from 4th to 8th edition 40k and then 3d print at home a playable army for less than a GW rule set starter box and army box. Not only that - but space lizards? Sure. Beaky helmet? Sure. Multiple horns off of the shoulders? Sure. Neeedlers? Sure. Wnat to play in 15 MM? Sure. Mad Max dune buggies? I mean the possibilities are endless for people that like tabletop games. So this really only applies to people that like to paint/play TTG's, less so for GW only gamers.
Anyway - the levee may break at some point when GW prices get so far above the cost too print unique models that people start leaving the brand and going independent.
Direct copies of copyrighted models - lets be clear - is illegal and just because a tourney judge or store owner cant prove it, or because a provider cant produce it fast enough doesn't justify it.
Thing is - GW/Citadel almost always had the best models and best castings (when they were paying attention).
Heavy doubt on that one.
The main thing GW has for them is that theyre the biggest wargaming miniature
Sure, every 40k-related subreddit and other group adjacent to places where the normal internet nerd population tends to reside isn't continuously flooded by people wanting to know about the fairly unique and interesting lore of the setting, in the way that I've never ever seen occur with something like WMH or Infinity or any other non-established IP. It's definitely just only always ever because it's the thing people play already, and it's somehow, always been like that!
Thing is - GW/Citadel almost always had the best models and best castings (when they were paying attention).
Heavy doubt on that one.
The main thing GW has for them is that theyre the biggest wargaming miniature
Sure, every 40k-related subreddit and other group adjacent to places where the normal internet nerd population tends to reside isn't continuously flooded by people wanting to know about the fairly unique and interesting lore of the setting, in the way that I've never ever seen occur with something like WMH or Infinity or any other non-established IP. It's definitely just only always ever because it's the thing people play already, and it's somehow, always been like that!
Isnt 40k the first big wargame to get popularized?
Oh yeah, it is. So my comment about them being the biggest wargame holds true. I'm not saying the game is irredeemable, just that its got a lot of help from its momentum. When is the last time you walked into an LGS that sells wargames, which games did they have the most in stock? Probably 40k.
40k has more than 15 years on the other main wargames that are still supported to this day.
Thing is - GW/Citadel almost always had the best models and best castings (when they were paying attention).
Heavy doubt on that one.
The main thing GW has for them is that theyre the biggest wargaming miniature
Well - what i meant by the "way back" was in fact the late 80's and early 90's. Their fantasy stuff in particular was the best available in detail, and as mentioned, in casting when they were paying attention. A little stiff compared to to some of today's plastic multi-part kits, but I still have some fantasy elves cast in metal 30 years ago that stand up to todays figs. rogue trader marines look goofy AF compared to primaris today, but compared to what was available in 1989? 1993? They built on that and the popularity of the game systems that were supported by the miniatures. Everyone liked Laserburn better but 25-28 mm Sci-fi was super appealing, and a rule set supported it was OK - both were expensive though.
They are now... They weren't at the time. I am pretty sure that it was GDW, Dungeons and Dragons, and Ral Partha in miniature wargaming which was largely historic. I think i remember that Wizards of the Coast was the largest and most profitable in that era.
In the modern era - how many of any miniatures that people currently use are hand sculpted? From what I have seen... none. They are computer CAD/CAM designed which just seems to lend itself to personal 3D printing. Only the scale of production is different.
The ability and tools that people have today to design and then print their own models is amazing so large scale mini manufacturers like GW have to find a way to adapt and stay relevant.
Nothing will ever beat Ral Partha for me personally. Some of those sculpts have such a timeless spirit to them.
However I do think we are entering into a new golden age of sculpt design with 3d printing. Just cruising around gumroad, etsy etc I see so many absolutely fantastic, unique takes on timeless sci-fi and fantasy themes. I unfortunately do not have living conditions amenable to 3d printing so I am eagerly waiting for the next leap in technology so I can find a way to get them printed!
Dudeface wrote:If you approach most people and say "this game is now out of print, the company that made it has gone bust and there'll be no support ever", that's an instant turn off for someone, why do that instead of trying an actively supported game?
I'm curious- why?
Some people don't like buying used cars because they don't want to deal with all of the effort required to fix them up, and the fact that they can't really know how much work it will be to fix and maintain the things.
Out of print games are the same sort of thing. "That issue that you've encountered was fixed in this errata/FAQ/expansion that you don't have, and can't find a description of."
Sure, there are people who love buying beat up cars and fixing them up. And there are people who love finding old games and tinkering about with them. But there are people who don't.
Turnip Jedi wrote: Not sure that would make much difference Doc as cover doesn't do much for titanic units, maybe a in theory with really big LOS blocks
Here it wasn't that uncommon to have 1-2 knight blocking terrain piece even in 8e.
Dudeface wrote:If you approach most people and say "this game is now out of print, the company that made it has gone bust and there'll be no support ever", that's an instant turn off for someone, why do that instead of trying an actively supported game?
I'm curious- why?
Some people don't like buying used cars because they don't want to deal with all of the effort required to fix them up, and the fact that they can't really know how much work it will be to fix and maintain the things.
Out of print games are the same sort of thing. "That issue that you've encountered was fixed in this errata/FAQ/expansion that you don't have, and can't find a description of."
Sure, there are people who love buying beat up cars and fixing them up. And there are people who love finding old games and tinkering about with them. But there are people who don't.
Unlike a used car, though, you can try a game and find out if it is a Lennon or a Lemon without too much investment...
And if it is a Lennon, you have found something you enjoy!
If it is a Lemon, you can never play it again and only have wasted an hour or so!
Most of the used cars, like most of the OOP games, don't require any fixing when they are put on 2nd hand market. They're good to go as they are. I'm assuming that both those mentioned used cars and OOP games are complete, they don't lack pieces. That comparison is meaningless.
