Honestly asking as we are getting close to the end of the Edition here, only 3-4 actual "factions" left, if they Combine Knights into 1 book, and Chaos Daemons into 1 book.

I don't think they plan on doing a re-do of any supplements, as they seem to not even bother upgrading their oldest faction rules anymore. So there goes the 2.0 thinking for me.

But What faction will get the SoB treatment this edition?

It would be hilarious if they re-did the Sisters, and then dropped 10th like a month later.

My personal vote is Chaos Daemons book will be the last out of the gate, and expect 10th sometime near the Q2-3 of 2023. That's just my prediction, and I was right about Sisters in 8th-9th.

Chaos Daemons are already one book.

Feels like daemons will be last. (nobody needs a 2.0, especially not before everyone else is done).

We've had hints, rumor engines or even new models (Chaos Marines) for everything else. (Including a glancing clip of a knight during some video or other). Daemons... nada.

I'm not even sure if GW knows how to make daemons a functional army on its own. Especially monogod.

I really think they are going to announce Kasarkin as the next rumor mill reveal. Auspex Tactics did a analysis and I hope he's right. If they are re-releasing the Storm Trooper lineup, I gotta say, that is a odd direction to take.

Voss wrote:
Feels like daemons will be last. (nobody needs a 2.0, especially not before everyone else is done).

We've had hints, rumor engines or even new models (Chaos Marines) for everything else. (Including a glancing clip of a knight during some video or other). Daemons... nada.

I'm not even sure if GW knows how to make daemons a functional army on its own. Especially monogod.

I'm expecting chaos to get a dark mirror of the Armies of Faith rules printed in Vigilus Alone. With the exception of Pariah Nexus, all 9thed campaigns have had two rounds of books. If Vigilus gets a second campaign book, you're almost guaranteed to see new ways of using the multiple forces of Chaos together. Imperials can already build Torchbearer Fleets (Custodes, Marines, Admech) in addition to Armies of Faith (Sisters, Marines, Guard). I wouldn't be surprised to see a Black Crusade combo, or a monogod option that allows you to take detachments of Chaos Knights, Chaos Marines and Daemons together without losing purity traits if they are all aligned to the same god. They'd have the same limitation as Armies of Faith- one troop unit for every non-troop datacard in each of the detachments, and chapter tactic abilities swapped out for a common power related to the faith in question which changes or escalates during campaign play.

I am expecting great things from the books to come, but that's because my primary interests is Crusade and narrative content. I think that the Druhkari and Aeldari dexes provide another indicator of how multi-subfaction armies can work together in some capacity.

As for the survey, I chose other: there is no 10th because GW finally figures out that they can make as much money churning seasons as they can editions. Sure, I know it's a pipedream and it'll never happen, but I couldn't help myself.

Voss wrote:
Feels like daemons will be last. (nobody needs a 2.0, especially not before everyone else is done).

From what I heard the "2.0" books were going to technically be the 1.0 books for the chapter supplements hanging around from 8th i.e. UM, RG, IF and the like.

Voss wrote:
Feels like daemons will be last. (nobody needs a 2.0, especially not before everyone else is done).

We've had hints, rumor engines or even new models (Chaos Marines) for everything else. (Including a glancing clip of a knight during some video or other). Daemons... nada.

I'm not even sure if GW knows how to make daemons a functional army on its own. Especially monogod.

It's not about whether somebody needs or not. It's what gw figures gives best profit.

There's still just under a year and a half until 10th.

If we assume Space Marines will get their book in the late Summer/early Autumn, that's still about a year or so to fill.

World Eaters feel like they'd be the face of an edition like Death Guard were, but the rumours for them have also been ramping up recently so maybe they'll come before then.

Ok, so given GW's propensity to go hard on the SM boys, do we think any new Chapters will be announced for rules-wise? Praying for Iron Snakes, but I'd settle for the Minotaurs in 9th.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, so given GW's propensity to go hard on the SM boys, do we think any new Chapters will be announced for rules-wise? Praying for Iron Snakes, but I'd settle for the Minotaurs in 9th.

Do the Minotaurs not have rules in the IA Compendium?

I wouldn't expect to see any Supplements for additional Loyalist Chapters at this time, though there's the possibility of the ones from 8th getting redone.

Right now Guard, Daemons and Space Marines 2.0 are leading the pack.
I feel it is likely we will get SM 2.0 before the end as there are models that need updated rules, they are the flagship army and the supplements need updating.
There are rumors of a major guard update coming and they have been featured in some major campaigns so...
This leaves what I think it will be Daemons who have ben kind of the red headed stepchild of 40k for a couple of editions. Personally I think they should do what they did in AoS but that's just me.

I'm thinking Guard will be last. We know Nids are imminent and Chaos are being pushed heavily by the rumor mill. We also have less specific rumors on Chaos Knights. I can't imagine Imperial Knights will be far behind them since their rules overlap so heavily.

That leaves us Chaos Daemons and Astra Militarum. I don't buy the possibility of any 2.0 books for 9th. And I think CD is more likely to come closer to the other Chaos books, assuming GW doesn't pull a Codex Aeldari and give us Codex Chaos with both the core Heretic Astartes and Daemons in one book. No rumors on that, but who knows with GW?

Regardless I think Guard need a serious overhaul to fit into the new power level and the rule writers will need a bit of time to make that work without strange power ups like improved flashlights.

 KingGarland wrote:
Right now Guard, Daemons and Space Marines 2.0 are leading the pack.
I feel it is likely we will get SM 2.0 before the end as there are models that need updated rules, they are the flagship army and the supplements need updating.
There are rumors of a major guard update coming and they have been featured in some major campaigns so...
This leaves what I think it will be Daemons who have ben kind of the red headed stepchild of 40k for a couple of editions. Personally I think they should do what they did in AoS but that's just me.

Problem there is they've walked past the opportunity to do Nurgle and Tzeentch as combined books already. And they're still obsessed with this 'army purity or set your special rules on fire' concept which still makes no sense for chaos, however many years after they carved daemons out of the Chaos codex in the first place.

alextroy wrote:Regardless I think Guard need a serious overhaul to fit into the new power level and the rule writers will need a bit of time to make that work

They've had time. Whatever direction Guard is going to go, they've decided by now, even in the off chance that the book isn't finalized (or close to it).
The Krieg models would've happened along that same production cycle, Kill Team release or not.

I've been thinking about AOS, and 40k. What if instead of making guard GUARD, they made the IG into more of like the Imperial Army faction in AOS, the one that's made up of all the different races? I forget the name. But basically, Guard is 2k points of whatever the feth you want, so long as you don't get any of their special rules, but you get a "Combined Arms Force" set of special rules, specifically designed for each type of combination. I mean it's really only 4-5 different combos.
Guard and Admech (Knights would be counted as Admech)
Guard and Astartes (all Shapes and colors)
Guard and Custodes
Guard and Sisters.

It would be pretty true to actual lore/form, and make it so Guard are a melting pot of forces, instead of a janky mess of useless never used units. I'd love to see a Space Wolves/Catachan army.

So you basically want an Imperium book focusing on Ynnari style soup rules?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I've been thinking about AOS, and 40k. What if instead of making guard GUARD, they made the IG into more of like the Imperial Army faction in AOS, the one that's made up of all the different races? I forget the name. But basically, Guard is 2k points of whatever the feth you want, so long as you don't get any of their special rules, but you get a "Combined Arms Force" set of special rules, specifically designed for each type of combination. I mean it's really only 4-5 different combos.
Guard and Admech (Knights would be counted as Admech)
Guard and Astartes (all Shapes and colors)
Guard and Custodes
Guard and Sisters.

It would be pretty true to actual lore/form, and make it so Guard are a melting pot of forces, instead of a janky mess of useless never used units. I'd love to see a Space Wolves/Catachan army.

Umm, no. Let's not.
First off, what if someone wants to run pure IG (as they've been able to do since, what, RT? 2e for sure)? Would this book include enough options to do that? But then, why should an IG book be forced to trade precious space away to other codices if it is capable of standing alone? Why not include a page or two of special rules form the combined forces in an otherwise normal IG dex?
Second, if IG are a "janky mess of useless never used units", then that means that GW should fething fix IG. If they already can't/won't do that, then making a Ynnarial Guard is just going to end up in the same place that Ynnari were/are (unless I'm mistaken, vacillating between "incapable of functioning", "brutally overpowered", and "janky mess of useless never used units").
Third, this feels like the sort of thing where GW would interpret any changes in sales as "Oh, no one likes IG. Guess we should squat everything that's not a standard Cadian Guard squad! :^)", and we really don't need to be giving them any opportunities there.
Fourth, wasn't one of the big whines about Soup/IG from this and last edition that people could just pick and choose the good bits out of multiple codices, breaking any semblance of internal balance the codices may have had? Why would creating a codex that literally does literally nothing but that be a good idea?
Fifth, I'm pretty sure you can already do Space Wolves+Catachans by taking multiple detachments, so this seems to be trying to solve a problem that doesn't meaningfully exist (excepting being able to use superdoctrines, I guess?).
Sixth, if we're still going to do this, why stop at IG? Why not make three codices - Imperium, Chaos, and Xenos? There is plenty of lore precedent for Eldar and Tau using/manipulating Ork mercenaries, and there's certainly nothing preventing all the Chaos books from being brought together, after all.

tl;dr: I 'm unsure what doing that would fix, and I am sure it would create many more problems than it even could solve.

I should note that I'm not familiar with the AoS thing you're referring to (Free Cities? Free Guilds? I want to say it has "Free" in the name, but that's as far as my knowledge goes), and I'm assuming this mixed book would strictly replace a standalone IG codex. If that's not the case, I'd appreciate more detail on how that AoS book works.

 KingGarland wrote:
Right now Guard, Daemons and Space Marines 2.0 are leading the pack.
I feel it is likely we will get SM 2.0 before the end as there are models that need updated rules, they are the flagship army and the supplements need updating.
There are rumors of a major guard update coming and they have been featured in some major campaigns so...
This leaves what I think it will be Daemons who have ben kind of the red headed stepchild of 40k for a couple of editions. Personally I think they should do what they did in AoS but that's just me.

Sm2 would be fun. Sm will be poster boys of edition so slated for first 10th codex as well

If SM get another 2 codexes in the next 3 years I think I'm done, unless the last one removes Chapter Tactics and Combat Doctrines for good.

Nah it will make each have 4-5 rules instead

GW tends to think of the guard last. Then they drop a new edition. That is where my money lies.

SYKOJAK wrote:
GW tends to think of the guard last. Then they drop a new edition. That is where my money lies.

Cruddace, head of the rules team, is a Guard player and notorious tread head. Hes probably leaving Guard till late so that they're at the top of the power creep curve.

 Sim-Life wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
GW tends to think of the guard last. Then they drop a new edition. That is where my money lies.

Cruddace, head of the rules team, is a Guard player and notorious tread head. Hes probably leaving Guard till late so that they're at the top of the power creep curve.

Isn't "last codex of an edition" traditionally not a good place to be, though? Something about "one foot in old edition, one foot in new, and too recent to get a proper fix/update after the new edition drops"?

Squats.

 waefre_1 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I've been thinking about AOS, and 40k. What if instead of making guard GUARD, they made the IG into more of like the Imperial Army faction in AOS, the one that's made up of all the different races? I forget the name. But basically, Guard is 2k points of whatever the feth you want, so long as you don't get any of their special rules, but you get a "Combined Arms Force" set of special rules, specifically designed for each type of combination. I mean it's really only 4-5 different combos.
Guard and Admech (Knights would be counted as Admech)
Guard and Astartes (all Shapes and colors)
Guard and Custodes
Guard and Sisters.

It would be pretty true to actual lore/form, and make it so Guard are a melting pot of forces, instead of a janky mess of useless never used units. I'd love to see a Space Wolves/Catachan army.

Umm, no. Let's not.
First off, what if someone wants to run pure IG (as they've been able to do since, what, RT? 2e for sure)? Would this book include enough options to do that? But then, why should an IG book be forced to trade precious space away to other codices if it is capable of standing alone? Why not include a page or two of special rules form the combined forces in an otherwise normal IG dex?
Second, if IG are a "janky mess of useless never used units", then that means that GW should fething fix IG. If they already can't/won't do that, then making a Ynnarial Guard is just going to end up in the same place that Ynnari were/are (unless I'm mistaken, vacillating between "incapable of functioning", "brutally overpowered", and "janky mess of useless never used units").
Third, this feels like the sort of thing where GW would interpret any changes in sales as "Oh, no one likes IG. Guess we should squat everything that's not a standard Cadian Guard squad! :^)", and we really don't need to be giving them any opportunities there.
Fourth, wasn't one of the big whines about Soup/IG from this and last edition that people could just pick and choose the good bits out of multiple codices, breaking any semblance of internal balance the codices may have had? Why would creating a codex that literally does literally nothing but that be a good idea?
Fifth, I'm pretty sure you can already do Space Wolves+Catachans by taking multiple detachments, so this seems to be trying to solve a problem that doesn't meaningfully exist (excepting being able to use superdoctrines, I guess?).
Sixth, if we're still going to do this, why stop at IG? Why not make three codices - Imperium, Chaos, and Xenos? There is plenty of lore precedent for Eldar and Tau using/manipulating Ork mercenaries, and there's certainly nothing preventing all the Chaos books from being brought together, after all.

tl;dr: I 'm unsure what doing that would fix, and I am sure it would create many more problems than it even could solve.

I should note that I'm not familiar with the AoS thing you're referring to (Free Cities? Free Guilds? I want to say it has "Free" in the name, but that's as far as my knowledge goes), and I'm assuming this mixed book would strictly replace a standalone IG codex. If that's not the case, I'd appreciate more detail on how that AoS book works.

How do you fix a faction with 5+ variants for every stinking base unit, that is essentially now a new unit. We don't need 3 different types of Hellhounds, 3 different types of Sentinels, 10+ (counting FW) types of LR tanks, and I think it's still 12(?) types of Baneblades? Have you ever seen a BB on a competitive table in the last 2 editions? What about Sentinels? Me neither. Same goes with all their air attack crap. Guard suffer from the second worst bloat in the game, just under Astartes. And AssTarts only take it because they had a complete 100% re-design very recently.

I don't see how anyone can justify the existence of so many useless and never purchased units? Why do we need 5+ different types of LR? Surely it's good just to have 1 AT variant, and Anti-infranty variant, and the original which threads the needle, and frankly does the job better than the other two. If you want Guard to be fixed, then drop all the bloat and make the base units really good. I can't fix all of the problems with guard, but to say it would weaken them to reduce the bloat I think is missing the point. The need better base units. Make their tanks BS3+ and make the troops BS3. Make the Scions/Kasarkin/Storm Troopers BS2, and give them all bumps in cost.

I don’t consider Leman Russ with Battlecannon a distinct unit from Leman Russ with Punisher Cannon.

Do you consider Custodian Guard with Spears a distinct unit from Custodian Guard with Swords and Shields?

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

The need better base units. Make their tanks BS3+ and make the troops BS3. Make the Scions/Kasarkin/Storm Troopers BS2, and give them all bumps in cost.

No. Get out. If you want fething guardsmen with bs3 I'm having goddamn bs1 on my chaos marines.

will people stop devaluing gradients of hit profiles, if everything in the goddamn game hits on a 3+ we might as well get rid of the stat.

It doesn't 'fix' anything, it just makes something more reliable. Something the bog standard gak scared human isn't supposed to be.

Fezz, what are you even talking about?

There's _one_ LR datasheet and _one_ Hellhound sheet. They just have weapon swaps. No one complains that there's 12 versions of Devastators because they can switch heavy weapons.

They've even dropped the distinction between the standard chassis and Demolisher chassis.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 waefre_1 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I've been thinking about AOS, and 40k. What if instead of making guard GUARD, they made the IG into more of like the Imperial Army faction in AOS, the one that's made up of all the different races? I forget the name. But basically, Guard is 2k points of whatever the feth you want, so long as you don't get any of their special rules, but you get a "Combined Arms Force" set of special rules, specifically designed for each type of combination. I mean it's really only 4-5 different combos.
Guard and Admech (Knights would be counted as Admech)
Guard and Astartes (all Shapes and colors)
Guard and Custodes
Guard and Sisters.

It would be pretty true to actual lore/form, and make it so Guard are a melting pot of forces, instead of a janky mess of useless never used units. I'd love to see a Space Wolves/Catachan army.

Umm, no. Let's not.
First off, what if someone wants to run pure IG (as they've been able to do since, what, RT? 2e for sure)? Would this book include enough options to do that? But then, why should an IG book be forced to trade precious space away to other codices if it is capable of standing alone? Why not include a page or two of special rules form the combined forces in an otherwise normal IG dex?
Second, if IG are a "janky mess of useless never used units", then that means that GW should fething fix IG. If they already can't/won't do that, then making a Ynnarial Guard is just going to end up in the same place that Ynnari were/are (unless I'm mistaken, vacillating between "incapable of functioning", "brutally overpowered", and "janky mess of useless never used units").
Third, this feels like the sort of thing where GW would interpret any changes in sales as "Oh, no one likes IG. Guess we should squat everything that's not a standard Cadian Guard squad! :^)", and we really don't need to be giving them any opportunities there.
Fourth, wasn't one of the big whines about Soup/IG from this and last edition that people could just pick and choose the good bits out of multiple codices, breaking any semblance of internal balance the codices may have had? Why would creating a codex that literally does literally nothing but that be a good idea?
Fifth, I'm pretty sure you can already do Space Wolves+Catachans by taking multiple detachments, so this seems to be trying to solve a problem that doesn't meaningfully exist (excepting being able to use superdoctrines, I guess?).
Sixth, if we're still going to do this, why stop at IG? Why not make three codices - Imperium, Chaos, and Xenos? There is plenty of lore precedent for Eldar and Tau using/manipulating Ork mercenaries, and there's certainly nothing preventing all the Chaos books from being brought together, after all.

tl;dr: I 'm unsure what doing that would fix, and I am sure it would create many more problems than it even could solve.

I should note that I'm not familiar with the AoS thing you're referring to (Free Cities? Free Guilds? I want to say it has "Free" in the name, but that's as far as my knowledge goes), and I'm assuming this mixed book would strictly replace a standalone IG codex. If that's not the case, I'd appreciate more detail on how that AoS book works.

How do you fix a faction with 5+ variants for every stinking base unit, that is essentially now a new unit. We don't need 3 different types of Hellhounds, 3 different types of Sentinels, 10+ (counting FW) types of LR tanks, and I think it's still 12(?) types of Baneblades?...

...You do realize that the only difference between the LR/HH variants is turret weapon, right? They're not even separate datasheets, excepting the FW entries (and those are all Legends). That's not "essentially a new unit" by any meaningful definition I can think of. What's really ironic is that you could've made that argument about Sentinels (which we have two of, not three - even going Legends, we still don't have three because Elysian Drop Sentinels were also a thing), but that's due to one getting +1 T/Sv and the other having Scout (which would be a meaningful enough difference that a new datasheet is acceptable, IMO). The Baneblade one you have more of a point on, but that can still be something where we condense it down to a Turreted Superheavy datasheet and a Casemate Superheavy datasheet (with options) rather than just going "lol Nick Nanavanti never bought one" and throwing the mold in a fire.

Also, you fix it the same way you fix any faction with more than three choices: competent design teams, serious playtesting, a central design philosophy for the faction, and an awareness of the state of the rest of the game. That GW chooses not to engage in this is nobody's fault but their own, and saying that a specific faction should pay for that is both vindictive and utterly pointless as a solution to the core problem.

Have you ever seen a BB on a competitive table in the last 2 editions? What about Sentinels?...Same goes with all their air attack crap.

Yes (Shadowswords early on and the transport variants), yes (Armoured are basically HWTs that can actually eat a shot, and Scouts get used for zoning/early objective grabs), and yes (apparently you don't remember twin-Punisher Vultures, and Valks are the backbone of any aircav list).

...Me neither...

Congratulations on having a boring meta?

...Guard suffer from the second worst bloat in the game, just under Astartes. And AssTarts only take it because they had a complete 100% re-design very recently...

[citation needed]
(that's not snark, I've never looked and FW will guarantee we're up there, but I'm skeptical that we're suffering from the "second worst bloat" specifically unless/until I see some numbers and a definition)

...I don't see how anyone can justify the existence of so many useless and never purchased units? Why do we need 5+ different types of LR? Surely it's good just to have 1 AT variant, and Anti-infranty variant, and the original which threads the needle, and frankly does the job better than the other two. If you want Guard to be fixed, then drop all the bloat and make the base units really good. I can't fix all of the problems with guard, but to say it would weaken them to reduce the bloat I think is missing the point. They need better base units...

Well, for a start, you are still asserting that they are useless (apparently because they're not auto-takes in competitive lists? Please correct me if I'm wrong here, because that's an absolutely garbage metric to judge whether a kit/datasheet should still exist - see Dark Eldar HQs and the pursuant salt for why). I'd argue that most of the current turret options at least have a niche, and since they're already on-sprue I don't see a need to remove them from the rules. And while I agree that the base units need some love, "broken and bloated" vs "functional and you don't even need your toes to count the number of datasheets" is a complete false dichotomy. There are always going to be redheaded stepchildren in any 'dex, that's unavoidable. But the mere existence of less-competitive but fluffy units is not an issue. I don't give a feth if they never place in a GT, I (and many others) still like Scout Salamanders and abhuman regiments and the CRASSUS ARMOURED TRANSPORT, and I can't say that I appreciate someone saying that we should lose all of those because they don't reliably get 110% RoI every match. That's shortsighted and directly attacks one of the key draws of miniature wargaming - the capacity to make an army of Your Dudes using the models/units you want rather than going to FNM but only bringing most of the same cards as everyone else rather than all of the same cards.

Also, I'm reasonably certain that every single codex has had "useless and never purchased units", sometimes even when the codex was top-tier and absolutely wrecking face, and often when the next codex/edition drops the list of units that are "useless and never purchased" changes quite drastically. So, yet again, that's a really bad metric for arguing that something should be removed outright.

...Make their tanks BS3+ and make the troops BS3. Make the Scions/Kasarkin/Storm Troopers BS2, and give them all bumps in cost.

No. No, no, no, no. I could see Tanks being BS3+ with some kind of wargear or veterancy upgrade, but one of the overarching themes of the Guard is "individually lackluster, relatively, but cheaper and more numerous". This directly contradicts that. Also, the one thing we absolutely do not need is to be more expensive. From what I hear, we're already struggling to trade evenly, and unless you plan on making system-wide rule changes to increase everyone's durability, making BS3+ Infantry Squads just means that we'd be losing a bigger chunk of our list when someone looks at that squad funny. Also, that puts Guardsmen on par with Sisters of Battle and Space Marines - I don't think either of those groups would be particularly fond of Guardsmen Joe Normalman #012416-d suddenly shooting just as well as they do, and while I'm not against using dice with more sides to give a little more granularity to stuff like this, you have to remember that stats like that exist as much as a comparison between units as anything (ie. a Gretchin is T2 and a Guardsman T3 because the Guardsman is significantly tougher than the Gretchin).

Guard are easily my fave imperial faction and the mechanics already exist to ally in others. Im not being the stereotypical conservative, change nothing ever gamer when i say no to this idea, just please no.

I think it's likely to be daemons. I'm hoping that they're leaving them to last so that they can have some integration with the various traitor legions. I would really like some capering horrors to field alongside my rubric automata.

If admech get Knights without breaking doctrines, eldar get Harlequins, Imperial factions get assassins and rogue traders, then I have my fingers crossed for chaos marines and daemons.

Whelp Chaos just got the War.com push. So there, they won't be last. Guessing it's knights. Can't say Knights suck in 9th if 10th comes out a month after Knights do!

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Whelp Chaos just got the War.com push. So there, they won't be last. Guessing it's knights. Can't say Knights suck in 9th if 10th comes out a month after Knights do!

[Citation Required]

While there have been a number of articles featuring Chaos this week, all the ones I've seen have been directly tied into the Kill Team box that goes up for pre-order this weekend. I've yet to see any articles aimed at an upcoming Codex: Chaos Space Marines - unlike Tyranids, for example...

Voss wrote:
Feels like daemons will be last. (nobody needs a 2.0, especially not before everyone else is done).

We've had hints, rumor engines or even new models (Chaos Marines) for everything else. (Including a glancing clip of a knight during some video or other). Daemons... nada.

I'm not even sure if GW knows how to make daemons a functional army on its own. Especially monogod.

Wasn't the credible rumor that Chaos is coming in the Summer and it's supposed to be broken as all heck? Or did I hallucinate that?

 Dysartes wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Whelp Chaos just got the War.com push. So there, they won't be last. Guessing it's knights. Can't say Knights suck in 9th if 10th comes out a month after Knights do!

[Citation Required]

While there have been a number of articles featuring Chaos this week, all the ones I've seen have been directly tied into the Kill Team box that goes up for pre-order this weekend. I've yet to see any articles aimed at an upcoming Codex: Chaos Space Marines - unlike Tyranids, for example...

They were also in the new Aeldari Boxed set. I wouldn't be surprised if they were in the pipe right behind Nids - Aeldari, Nids, Chaos Space Marines, .....

 Togusa wrote:

Voss wrote:
Feels like daemons will be last. (nobody needs a 2.0, especially not before everyone else is done).

We've had hints, rumor engines or even new models (Chaos Marines) for everything else. (Including a glancing clip of a knight during some video or other). Daemons... nada.

I'm not even sure if GW knows how to make daemons a functional army on its own. Especially monogod.

Wasn't the credible rumor that Chaos is coming in the Summer and it's supposed to be broken as all heck? Or did I hallucinate that?

The CSM book...is going to be good? You must have hallucinated that.

The csm book can be "Good" (read totally broken as gak trough all circles of slaaneshs pleasure palace) and still fail at representing what it is supposed to.

Sofar the rumours encourage to expect something in this way.

Not Online!!! wrote:
The csm book can be "Good" (read totally broken as gak trough all circles of slaaneshs pleasure palace) and still fail at representing what it is supposed to.

Sofar the rumours encourage to expect something in this way.

yeah, if all our datasheet have built-in VotLW + EC its gonna be good, but also really bad.

It's going to be Guard. At this rate, it's been over 5 years now.

I voted Guard, but I'm beggining to have doubts it will be the last V9 codex. We have been given two hints in the "rumour engine" that are almost unmistakenly Astra Militarum : a Kasrkin hand with an auspex, and a rough rider explosive spear. These concepts lead me to think the V9 Astra Militarum might be "only" 3-5 months ahead.

By the way, what is the average delay between a rumour engine hint and the item's release ?

 BlackoCatto wrote:
It's going to be Guard. At this rate, it's been over 5 years now.

The Astra Militarum V8 codex was released in october 2017, so that is 4 years 6 months currently.

I really hope Guard get to have some sort of fun, but they really don't have a foil to box set against. Chaos already have their box planned, against Aeldari(?) and Knights will obviously be stand alone, as a single knight is already over 100USD. That leaves Guard by themselves really, or am I forgetting someone? Guard as a stand alone release the way they did Sisters MIGHT be really good. Basically 1 faction gets to be the "bridge" and is de-facto the first codex out of the gate. So if that is the case, Guard will be good for about 1-3 months, before getting totally stomped by power creep Astartes.

Wait, I'm wrong, didn't GW mention they might be doing Traitor Guard? Could that be the box set? One giant box of Guard, and you have no idea who's traitor, but could double as both factions? That would be a fun way to start Chaos.

From the 2021 november leak about the roadmap, traitor guard was supposed to be part of heretic astartes (CSM codex). So I don't think traitor guard would be included as an antagonist to the new astra militarum. I see one other possibilty of a faction vs faction box, and that would be Daemons, vs Kasrkin (or Krieg).

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I've been thinking about AOS, and 40k. What if instead of making guard GUARD, they made the IG into more of like the Imperial Army faction in AOS, the one that's made up of all the different races?

Sometimes I think "GW is so bad at rules that you could probably get 5 random Dakkanites together to come up with a better ruleset", and then I read ideas like this... We had a system like this in 7th, literally everyone hated it. "Imperium soup with the loyal 32" is something I never want to see across from me on a table or read about in a batrep for the rest of my life. It was terrible for the game in every way imaginable.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I really hope Guard get to have some sort of fun, but they really don't have a foil to box set against. Chaos already have their box planned, against Aeldari(?) and Knights will obviously be stand alone, as a single knight is already over 100USD. That leaves Guard by themselves really, or am I forgetting someone? Guard as a stand alone release the way they did Sisters MIGHT be really good. Basically 1 faction gets to be the "bridge" and is de-facto the first codex out of the gate. So if that is the case, Guard will be good for about 1-3 months, before getting totally stomped by power creep Astartes.

Wait, I'm wrong, didn't GW mention they might be doing Traitor Guard? Could that be the box set? One giant box of Guard, and you have no idea who's traitor, but could double as both factions? That would be a fun way to start Chaos.

GW doesn't make statements like that.

Chaos vs Eldar already happened. Twice now, in fact, once for 40k and once for kill team
A boxed set isn't required, anyway, but they wouldn't 'double it up' with indistinguishable opposing factions. At least not without a lot of knifework and conversions, and the chaos rumors so far are tossing that principle out the window, if the exalted champion character is anything to go by.

 Ravajaxe wrote:
From the 2021 november leak about the roadmap, traitor guard was supposed to be part of heretic astartes (CSM codex).

It was from before November. That's part of what actually gave it credibility: the Black Templar and then Chalnath leaks were explicitly spelled out.

So I don't think traitor guard would be included as an antagonist to the new astra militarum. I see one other possibilty of a faction vs faction box, and that would be Daemons, vs Kasrkin (or Krieg).

Traitor Guard are entirely possible as a "vs" box, since the rumor is there will actually be a fully fleshed out new Regiment coming at some point for Guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Toofast wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I've been thinking about AOS, and 40k. What if instead of making guard GUARD, they made the IG into more of like the Imperial Army faction in AOS, the one that's made up of all the different races?

Sometimes I think "GW is so bad at rules that you could probably get 5 random Dakkanites together to come up with a better ruleset", and then I read ideas like this... We had a system like this in 7th, literally everyone hated it. "Imperium soup with the loyal 32" is something I never want to see across from me on a table or read about in a batrep for the rest of my life. It was terrible for the game in every way imaginable.

Cities of Sigmar weren't really initially a "soup" faction like they've become.

It's made up of a ton of smaller factions. That's part of what made it such a "bleh" book early on. Conceptually, it absolutely is a good model for how to set up Guard in 40k...it just was a bad model for how to set up the concept of the Cities of Sigmar as they were described.

You were supposed to have generals from the Cities of Sigmar that knew how to utilize the troops at their disposal. You were supposed to have retinues of heroes that all had a place in your battleplans. Certain races were supposed to be present in each city, etc etc...
And then GW shanked it. To use a Guard analogue, they basically created the doctrines system from the 3.5 Guard book without putting the restrictions in. And it went about as well as you can imagine.

Without radically altering the lore, how will they keep Creed in the codex? Will he get Legends treatment? I might see them doing a Guard vs. Necrons box set with the remains of Cadia getting together to "rescue" Creed from Solemance. That would be a fun battlezone book/lore direction? Two birds with one stone. Get back the supreme commander of the IG, make him a 9th level Warlord threat, and give him an adjusted statline, his dual Hotshot pistols could be S5/6 ap2 d3 12" Pistol 4. And give him something stupid like the ability to summon a command squad from off map.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Without radically altering the lore, how will they keep Creed in the codex? .

Give him a datasheet.
.
.
.
Yep. That's it. Dead (or whatever) special characters in a codex isn't weird or unusual.

Voss wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Without radically altering the lore, how will they keep Creed in the codex? .

Give him a datasheet.
.
.
.
Yep. That's it. Dead (or whatever) special characters in a codex isn't weird or unusual.

Such as several of the Space Marine characters. BA has a few.

Well, apparently Imperial Knights are shoulder-checking the chaos factions out of the way and taking the release slot after Tyranids.

'Summer of Chaos' anyone? Aside from Guard, its all that's left.

They could be doing a guard v Chaos book, but that is gonna be dumb. Here's 3 squads of IG troops, 1 HWT, a CC, and a Chimera. Here 3x squads of Havocs/Generic Chaos Marines, and some Daemon machine, likely a hell brute. That would suck big toasted toads.

I still don't get how GW can seriously balance IG with any actual real impact. They either break 9th, or completely re-design the guard. I don't see GW doing either. I've said before, and I think it's the easiest way, is to make the guard a "PDF" faction. You can attach them to any imperial or Chaos list, with no impact. They have no stand alone benefits, no purity buff, but they can be cheap meat for a heavy Blood Angels list. Or a heavy World Eaters list, as it were. Just call them Traitors, and bam.

Or, hear me out, they just release a normal bloody codex and don't worry about 'balancing out' any sort of box or book.

Even when they do versus boxes or starter boxes, they don't particularly worry about 'balancing' the box contents anyway, so I don't see why you're so obsessed with it.

Ok, but what even is a "NORMAL BLOODY CODEX" anymore? What was the last honestly normal codex? I'd say it was the Sisters of 8th. But then they got an instant update 4 months later.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, but what even is a "NORMAL BLOODY CODEX" anymore?

This: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/codex-aeldari-2022-eng

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I still don't get how GW can seriously balance IG with any actual real impact. They either break 9th, or completely re-design the guard. I don't see GW doing either. I've said before, and I think it's the easiest way, is to make the guard a "PDF" faction. You can attach them to any imperial or Chaos list, with no impact. They have no stand alone benefits, no purity buff, but they can be cheap meat for a heavy Blood Angels list. Or a heavy World Eaters list, as it were. Just call them Traitors, and bam.

1) GW already can't "seriously balance" any other force, so insisting that IG have to die for it is still pointless and vindictive.
2) That you, personally, can't see how to balance IG doesn't mean that there is no way to balance IG.
3) It would be even better to resign Space Marines to the add-on force and have IG be the main dex - after all, there's rarely more than a company of the Marines across warzones that encompass multiple army groups of IG, so saying that a representative slice of that should be SM with IG sprinkles is utter stupidity.
4) You still haven't answered what parts of the IG are going to make the cut in this prospective new 'dex and why.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, but what even is a "NORMAL BLOODY CODEX" anymore? What was the last honestly normal codex? I'd say it was the Sisters of 8th. But then they got an instant update 4 months later.

It's pretty obvious that he meant "normal bloody codex" in the context of "Standalone codex for a faction"; ie, a regular IG 'dex for 9e same as we got for 8e and prior, not the weird addon 'dex you were suggesting.

Ok, well the options are it either does a. Nothing, and IG continues to suck. B. It is amazing and IG fly to the top of the Meta, or C. It comes out with a very few modest changes and makes no big splash either way. I would put forward then that C is the same as A in this instance.

And the idea that Aeldari are somehow not a broken codex is laughable. We just haven't seen them in the hands of uber-competitive grognards yet. Their new sniper can do silly amounts of damage for 100 points, and their weaver of fate auto 6's are ripe for the exploiting.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, well the options are it either does a. Nothing, and IG continues to suck. B. It is amazing and IG fly to the top of the Meta, or C. It comes out with a very few modest changes and makes no big splash either way. I would put forward then that C is the same as A in this instance.

My goodness! You mean to say that a new 'dex might make us worse, better, or keep us the same? Sir, I shall need to see the fifth-dimensional calculus you've done to come to such an outlandish conclusion.

And the idea that Aeldari are somehow not a broken codex is laughable. We just haven't seen them in the hands of uber-competitive grognards yet. Their new sniper can do silly amounts of damage for 100 points, and their weaver of fate auto 6's are ripe for the exploiting.

I don't care. You're still not engaging with the point - that your suggestions aren't justified by the brokenness of other codices any more than they're justified by the fact that GW might have to *gasp* do work to make a balanced solo IG 'dex, and you're completely ignoring the fact that this new 'dex would have exactly the same problems (if not worse) as a solo IG 'dex (not to mention the obvious unfairness of expecting IG and IG alone to undergo this crap).

I'm not advocating anything. I am merely stating for the good of the faction, it's better that they be broken, than worthless. Equal and midling isn't fun for the most expensive faction in the game.

And your insistence of sticking your head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge that GW is going to do exactly what they've been doing for entire edition isn't my problem either. Go complain on Reddit about how GW doesn't work hard enough to make a balanced game. The game is inherently unbalanced. It always has been. Nothing in 40k is about skill. It's luck and who's got the biggest baddest toy soldier.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I'm not advocating anything.

You explicitly are. Or were all your other posts just figments of my imagination?

I am merely stating for the good of the faction, it's better that they be broken, than worthless.

Which is a false dichotomy, and also not something you've said in relation to your suggestion as far as I've seen.

Equal and midling isn't fun for the most expensive faction in the game.

So the game should be fun in proportion to how much money you've spent on it? What a wonderful outlook.

And your insistence of sticking your head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge that GW is going to do exactly what they've been doing for entire edition isn't my problem either.

That's weird, all these words in my mouth are directly contradicted by other posts I've made in this and other threads...

<literally 'gb2reddit'>

Do the kids still say "OK Boomer" these days?

The game is inherently unbalanced. It always has been. Nothing in 40k is about skill. It's luck and who's got the biggest baddest toy soldier.

Great. Yet again, that doesn't justify your suggestion, and yet again, you've spent an entire post ignoring criticisms. You're not obligated to defend your positions, of course, but running away every time you're challenged doesn't exactly instill confidence in your ideas.

When they do their internal testing of beta rules for a new codex, who do they test it against? Do they play against the entire line-up of factions, regardless of if they have a current book or not, or do they only test their books against factions that have had an update to the current set?

Guard. It's Guard. Knights codices are announced as next after nids, and Chaos is teased to be right after.

"To each of us falls a task, and all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand the line, and we die fighting. It is what we do best. We die standing."

Arcanis161 wrote:
Guard. It's Guard. Knights codices are announced as next after nids, and Chaos is teased to be right after.

"To each of us falls a task, and all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand the line, and we die fighting. It is what we do best. We die standing."

Could still be daemons. Probably will be daemons, so we have a break from all that chaos.
We've got multiple guard rumor engine pics now, and nothing for daemons (the wings are in the chaos marine teaser)

Voss wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
Guard. It's Guard. Knights codices are announced as next after nids, and Chaos is teased to be right after.

"To each of us falls a task, and all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand the line, and we die fighting. It is what we do best. We die standing."

Could still be daemons. Probably will be daemons, so we have a break from all that chaos.
We've got multiple guard rumor engine pics now, and nothing for daemons (the wings are in the chaos marine teaser)

That's right. We got a spear with a grenade near the tip, so very likely a Death Rider meaning it is likely there will be new Krieg guard models with a new codex to go with it. Daemons getting the shaft this edition.

 BlackoCatto wrote:
It's going to be Guard. At this rate, it's been over 5 years now.

This. It's suppose to be the "Year of Chaos" so I imagine it will be.

- Imperial Knights / Chaos Knights
- CSM / SM 2.0
- WE
- Daemons / Guard

Voss wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
Guard. It's Guard. Knights codices are announced as next after nids, and Chaos is teased to be right after.

"To each of us falls a task, and all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand the line, and we die fighting. It is what we do best. We die standing."

Could still be daemons. Probably will be daemons, so we have a break from all that chaos.
We've got multiple guard rumor engine pics now, and nothing for daemons (the wings are in the chaos marine teaser)

I guess two is multiple (Death/Rough Rider spear, Kasrkin wrist w/auspex) - weren't most of the others that were possibly Guard covered by the Ash Wastes stuff?

At this point I think guard and mayeb even a accompanying renegade and chaos guard release. Then I think we will get world eaters codex as an end of edition event where they are a huge threat. then that threat gets partially resolved at the event to kick off 10th edition

I really hope they do SOMETHING to alter the way in which guard play, because it would be wonderful to see them at least be able to play in 10th, as opposed to 9th, where they just sat on shelves. Something like the Sisters dex where they were obviously built around the ideas in place for the next edition.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Guard. It's Guard. Knights codices are announced as next after nids, and Chaos is teased to be right after.

"To each of us falls a task, and all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand the line, and we die fighting. It is what we do best. We die standing."

Nah they will be the third codex in 10th edition


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I still don't get how GW can seriously balance IG with any actual real impact. They either break 9th, or completely re-design the guard.

In my fever dreams they have a really simple game speeding up set of orders (stuff like FRFSRF being auto hits not double 4+ shots) and no stratagems etc. Just their statlines. No re-rolls beyond the odd CP. A radically different fraction to everyone else as a consequence...

GW would be able to test a different way of playing 40k and see what the market think of it...

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I really hope they do SOMETHING to alter the way in which guard play, because it would be wonderful to see them at least be able to play in 10th, as opposed to 9th, where they just sat on shelves. Something like the Sisters dex where they were obviously built around the ideas in place for the next edition.

I agree in wanting them to be buffed, but I still want them to feel like guardsmen. I don't want them to feel liek less tough marines though, would much rather it be a human horde personally. The beauty of guard to me is in a world of ork waaghs, necron tombworlds, dark eldar invasions, tyranid spliter fleets, and chaos incursions the guard are just humans with a laser rifle and flakk armor made to the cheapest possible standard. I hate that GW dropped the floor for points to 5 points per model. Conscripts 3 points, guardsmen 4 points, Veterans 5 points (and make grots back to 2 points for orks while at it)

keep them cheap and make weapons upgrades even cheaper. Allow Vetran squads back into the troop choice. Bring back a purchasable upgrade for a 4+ armor save armor per unit for veterans. Allow Guard to ignore the flier limitation with Valkries moved to dedicated transport specifically, but keep the 2 limit for vendettas. cheap tanks, cheap chimeras etc. there should be a absolute mass of guardsman models on the board all not super durable but with a decent punch and when you wipe out a squad there are 3 more squads behind it.

There is no way, shape, or form where "purchaseable to a 4+ upgrade" is acceptable given that Aeldari Guardians are 4+ saves now.

Did GW actually call this "the year of Chaos"? I'm 99% sure they didn't, just like they never called 2019 or whatever "Year of Xenos". It is uncanny how these memes spread like wildfire...

They didn't call it "the year of Chaos", no. But they did say this...:

And in December, we’ll see brand new codexes for xenos and Imperial armies. What could they be? We can’t tell you, which has nothing to do with the Inquisitor looming menacingly behind us…

Eagle-eyed heretics** may note the lack of codexes for the Traitor Legions. Do not despair, as 2022 will be a bumper year for warp-based shenanigans.

 Kanluwen wrote:
There is no way, shape, or form where "purchaseable to a 4+ upgrade" is acceptable given that Aeldari Guardians are 4+ saves now.

sure there is, it depends on how much the model costs.

currently 5.5 points per model vs 9 points per model

3.5 points buys 1 inch movement, +1 BS +1WS -1 attack from the unit (sarg getting its2) a +1 armor save and a better but shorter range gun (+1str, -1 Ap with shuriken) each have thier special rule, battle focus vs orders

Now the guardian is better and I would agree its better for the points but does it mean guard need to get a 4+ (an if so are they now 6-6.5 points per model units?) or does it mean they should go down in points? i mean either could work to balance them. I think the eldar lorewise are giving much better armor to their guardians than the imperium, since the imperium can take more losses, but if pointed appropriately also no problem.

Guardians and Guardsmen were more or less 1:1 matches. If one changed, the other one should too.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Did GW actually call this "the year of Chaos"?.

They did. It was a comment, something along the lines of "next year will be great for Chaos players"
not some official naming.
They implied Chaos players would be pretty happy. I wasn't sure if they meant 40k/AoS/both/or across all thier games.

I shrugged, happy for whatever Chaos players they meant. My wallet heaved a sigh of relief as the most ill be spending on Chaos in '22 is likely to be 3 books books for AoS. Unless they do something REALLY dramatic concerning the models.....

The_Real_Chris wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
Guard. It's Guard. Knights codices are announced as next after nids, and Chaos is teased to be right after.

"To each of us falls a task, and all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand the line, and we die fighting. It is what we do best. We die standing."

Nah they will be the third codex in 10th edition

You know, the more I think about it, if we get a codex that early into 10th, we might as well skip a 9th ed codex...

 Kanluwen wrote:
Guardians and Guardsmen were more or less 1:1 matches. If one changed, the other one should too.

orks an space marines in editions past (2nd and 3rd) were pretty much the same profile, things change. If you want 9 point guardsman with that profile then sure that is one way GW could go, its just not what I want to see from them personally, to many armies in the lets go more and more elite. GW with 9th has made most horde type of armies no longer viable. If they made guardsmen an actual horde of humans with flashlight army I would be breaking out my guard and getting more models to build it up. Its just the type of army I personally like playing.

That's cool, but remember that the "actual horde of humans with flashlights" have traditionally been depicted with very little in the way of armor. And that there literally was a difference between a "Flak Jacket" and "Flak Armor".

yea, and to be clear I think both would work. you could make guardsmen more elite with better saves. I could even see having you veterans and your guardsman at 4+ for increased points and introducing something between a conscript and a guardsman since in the fluff there is often planetary defense troops in the mix. make them limited in orders and worse stats, but cheap as chips, for an in between profile. If its just another more elite codex though I think my guardsmen are likely to stay on the shelf in diorama depicting them fighting alongside my dark angels vs chaos demons and chaos marines.

While guard is leading the pack, I think SMs 2.0 will be the last one before 10th.

I think Guard will be the first codex of 10th, but with 9th edition rules, so it will be completely invalid upon release.

Engaging Kan on the Guardsman armor topic is just not worth it. No Kan, there's no compelling reason why Guardsmen and Guardians have the same armor, and there are plenty of compelling reasons that they don't have the same armor. I'm not going to say another word on that topic.

And on the "Year of Chaos" thing... c'mon folks. Warhammer Community is a marketing team. Of course they will say "look out Heretics, you'll get lots of cool stuff this year!" They say that about everything every time they put out content. It's just silly to read anything into that.

They actually don't usually call out one specific army like they did there.

But anyways, there's no reason why Guardsmen can't be bumped to a 4+ save...provided we're talking about the Cadian or Vostroyan design aesthetic.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Engaging Kan on the Guardsman armor topic is just not worth it. No Kan, there's no compelling reason why Guardsmen and Guardians have the same armor, and there are plenty of compelling reasons that they don't have the same armor. I'm not going to say another word on that topic.

Traditionally armour went...
Flak - 6+ (5+ vs explosions) - Guardsmen
Mesh - 5+ - Eldar
Carapace - 4+ - Aspects, fancy humans, etc.
Power - 3+ - Marines

 Dysartes wrote:

Voss wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
Guard. It's Guard. Knights codices are announced as next after nids, and Chaos is teased to be right after.

"To each of us falls a task, and all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand the line, and we die fighting. It is what we do best. We die standing."

Could still be daemons. Probably will be daemons, so we have a break from all that chaos.
We've got multiple guard rumor engine pics now, and nothing for daemons (the wings are in the chaos marine teaser)

I guess two is multiple (Death/Rough Rider spear, Kasrkin wrist w/auspex) - weren't most of the others that were possibly Guard covered by the Ash Wastes stuff?

I looked, but there were one or two others (the 'luggage' with the 'switch') that I couldn't find on the Ash Wastes stuff (though I'll admit to not being exhaustive in my efforts).

But still, we've got guard stuff and rumors and daemons are a big fat egg. Which might mean a solo book and maybe a model (one or another herald, for example). I'd hope for a bit more, but...

If they wanted a single-model release for Daemons, a plastic Herald of Slaanesh on foot would fit that bill easily enough. Or a plastic Tzeentch Herald, on or off Disc.

I went looking for the year of chaos post on warcom. From what I've been able to discern, various forums have attributed the statement to the Christmas day preview, which of course was Eldritch Omens.

The statement in that post was:

"This box is on its way soon, and it’s just the start of an incredible year for the Aeldari, Chaos, and Warhammer 40,000 in general."

I don't think a 4+ is reasonable. Lest we forget, not to long ago, a LR tank was a 3+. Guard are paper people, with wet pool noodles for weapons. They shouldn't be able to tank Splinter guns to the face, or lasguns. They should always die when looked at strongly.

That being said, if you buff lasguns it becomes stupid, conscripts running around with 30 S4 ap0 D1 shots, or 60 at <12". No thank you. This is what I mean. Where can you surgically alter guard in any meaningful way? I'm not saying it's impossible, but many people here have seen more 40k than I will in my life, and must have a semblance of an idea.

I did like the "resources" system that someone mentioned, back when 9th first dropped. Basically, each turn the Guard player gets and extra 250+X extra "Reserve points" if they've Held the Line, or whatever. That said, they can then use that to "summon" heavier units. So if they Hold the line for 3 turns, they can summon like 3 conscript squads, a baneblade, and a fleet of Basalisks. I dunno, that's breaking 9th though.

So honestly, what Ideas are there for saving guard?

Mesh armor is the same thing as Flak for all intents and purposes of 40k.

Unless you go and do something like:

Flak Armor provides a 5+ save and <insert bonus here> versus Blast or Template weapons.

Flak Jackets provide a 6+ save and <insert bonus here> while in terrain.

Guard at 4+ as a default doesn't make a lot of sense to me. They're not Eldar.

Elite Guard infantry - like Storm Troopers/Grenadiers - would be the 4+, which is Carapace armour. Unless you want that to go to 3+, or maybe 4+ but they have transhuman to represent it being slightly thicker, and the rules escalation continues?

So, here me out: Here's my conspiracy theory. GW is making Scions integrated into guard now, as a full on troops/elite/HQ choice. You will now be able to take Guard Squads, Conscripts, and "STORM TROOPERS" that change name depending on regiment. Storm Troopers get access to heavy and special weapons just like the scions, but can't include HWTs. They get Better BS/WS, because they are better guard. They get a 4+ armor save because Carapace. And they can only be taken 1x1 for each guard squad. They can keep all the Scion rules (drop insertion, etc) but they lose all the cool Scion rules of 8th, and instead just get a special set of strats per their main Sub faction, Cadian, Catachan, etc.

This gives Guard players access to super cheap high value shooting, with good BS, and can still run squads of Hellguns on FRFSRF which is gonna be ugly if they buff hell guns to S5.

Voss wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
Guard. It's Guard. Knights codices are announced as next after nids, and Chaos is teased to be right after.

"To each of us falls a task, and all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand the line, and we die fighting. It is what we do best. We die standing."

Could still be daemons. Probably will be daemons, so we have a break from all that chaos.
We've got multiple guard rumor engine pics now, and nothing for daemons (the wings are in the chaos marine teaser)

I'd like to change my guess to Squats?

My money is on AM being last.

Breton wrote:

Voss wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
Guard. It's Guard. Knights codices are announced as next after nids, and Chaos is teased to be right after.

"To each of us falls a task, and all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand the line, and we die fighting. It is what we do best. We die standing."

Could still be daemons. Probably will be daemons, so we have a break from all that chaos.
We've got multiple guard rumor engine pics now, and nothing for daemons (the wings are in the chaos marine teaser)

I'd like to change my guess to Squats?

Nah. We've got Votann penciled in for later this year ("a few months off" according to the article), still nothing on daemons.
Sticking with daemons.

 Dysartes wrote:
If they wanted a single-model release for Daemons, a plastic Herald of Slaanesh on foot would fit that bill easily enough. Or a plastic Tzeentch Herald, on or off Disc.

we already have a plastic tzeentch herald, if anything, demons need new entries, not old kits remade

I was about to say, as models go, Daemons have some of the newest models. Belakor, The whole AOS line that can also be used for 40k, the Slaneshi stuff, the new Brimstone horrors, and didn't they also update the stupid bloodletters? Also, all the nurgle daemons are new since 8th. Meanwhile AM is using the same models since before 7th. If anyone deserves new updated models it's Nids or IG.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
If they wanted a single-model release for Daemons, a plastic Herald of Slaanesh on foot would fit that bill easily enough. Or a plastic Tzeentch Herald, on or off Disc.

we already have a plastic tzeentch herald, if anything, demons need new entries, not old kits remade

Interestingly enough, they've been kinda/sorta hinting at things of this nature happening.

Those Gellarpox Infected? They get a shoutout in "Engine War" as part of the daemonic side of things rather than aligned to any mortal forces.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I was about to say, as models go, Daemons have some of the newest models. Belakor,

A special character from last year, that doesn't play well with traditional daemon lists for a host of reasons.
Frankly this goes over like 'Well, Chaos Marines have Abaddon, so they're all fine'

Its a problem with daemon book in general. A few bits and bobs for one god (or no god) doesn't do anything for folks who play anything else.

The whole AOS line that can also be used for 40k,

??
What are you referring to here?

the Slaneshi stuff

...the fiends and the harpist? From the 2018 box?

, the new Brimstone horrors

from WQ: Silver Tower in 2016?

and didn't they also update the stupid bloodletters?

No.
{You might be thinking of flesh hounds. Who got their very monopose unit in 2018 as well}

Also, all the nurgle daemons are new since 8th.

Well, some.

Meanwhile AM is using the same models since before 7th. If anyone deserves new updated models it's Nids or IG.

??? Nids are getting the parasite and that's it.
Not sure where a 'deserves new models' debate fits into any of this. Especially since we know for certain Guard are getting new models (that rough rider lance isn't going to anyone else, and I very much doubt that's going to be a single model (or unit) for the book)

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
If they wanted a single-model release for Daemons, a plastic Herald of Slaanesh on foot would fit that bill easily enough. Or a plastic Tzeentch Herald, on or off Disc.

we already have a plastic tzeentch herald, if anything, demons need new entries, not old kits remade

Ah, my apologies - hadn't realised he was in with the Burning Chariot kit (going by the SC description). I was looking at the individual listings, and didn't see one.

 Dysartes wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
If they wanted a single-model release for Daemons, a plastic Herald of Slaanesh on foot would fit that bill easily enough. Or a plastic Tzeentch Herald, on or off Disc.

we already have a plastic tzeentch herald, if anything, demons need new entries, not old kits remade

Ah, my apologies - hadn't realised he was in with the Burning Chariot kit (going by the SC description). I was looking at the individual listings, and didn't see one.

yeah, that chariot is probably (almost) never built as the chariot lol, its always just bits for heralds + exalted flamers

Voss wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
blah blah blah

Look it's gonna get a lot worse than that. Guard are getting a new tank, a new Deathstrike (Because that's what we wanted) a new Creed model (The lore will hopefully explain this?) and a new type of regiment box (smart money right now is Krieg) but yeah, nids only get 1 model.

I took one of the previous comments about how 9th was going to need to update Daemons models, because they are old. I felt that was an incorrect statement.