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Voss wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
Guard. It's Guard. Knights codices are announced as next after nids, and Chaos is teased to be right after.

"To each of us falls a task, and all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand the line, and we die fighting. It is what we do best. We die standing."

Could still be daemons. Probably will be daemons, so we have a break from all that chaos.
We've got multiple guard rumor engine pics now, and nothing for daemons (the wings are in the chaos marine teaser)

That's right. We got a spear with a grenade near the tip, so very likely a Death Rider meaning it is likely there will be new Krieg guard models with a new codex to go with it. Daemons getting the shaft this edition.

 BlackoCatto wrote:
It's going to be Guard. At this rate, it's been over 5 years now.

This. It's suppose to be the "Year of Chaos" so I imagine it will be.

- Imperial Knights / Chaos Knights
- CSM / SM 2.0
- WE
- Daemons / Guard

Voss wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
Guard. It's Guard. Knights codices are announced as next after nids, and Chaos is teased to be right after.

"To each of us falls a task, and all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand the line, and we die fighting. It is what we do best. We die standing."

Could still be daemons. Probably will be daemons, so we have a break from all that chaos.
We've got multiple guard rumor engine pics now, and nothing for daemons (the wings are in the chaos marine teaser)

I guess two is multiple (Death/Rough Rider spear, Kasrkin wrist w/auspex) - weren't most of the others that were possibly Guard covered by the Ash Wastes stuff?

At this point I think guard and mayeb even a accompanying renegade and chaos guard release. Then I think we will get world eaters codex as an end of edition event where they are a huge threat. then that threat gets partially resolved at the event to kick off 10th edition

I really hope they do SOMETHING to alter the way in which guard play, because it would be wonderful to see them at least be able to play in 10th, as opposed to 9th, where they just sat on shelves. Something like the Sisters dex where they were obviously built around the ideas in place for the next edition.

Arcanis161 wrote:
Guard. It's Guard. Knights codices are announced as next after nids, and Chaos is teased to be right after.

"To each of us falls a task, and all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand the line, and we die fighting. It is what we do best. We die standing."

Nah they will be the third codex in 10th edition


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I still don't get how GW can seriously balance IG with any actual real impact. They either break 9th, or completely re-design the guard.

In my fever dreams they have a really simple game speeding up set of orders (stuff like FRFSRF being auto hits not double 4+ shots) and no stratagems etc. Just their statlines. No re-rolls beyond the odd CP. A radically different fraction to everyone else as a consequence...

GW would be able to test a different way of playing 40k and see what the market think of it...

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I really hope they do SOMETHING to alter the way in which guard play, because it would be wonderful to see them at least be able to play in 10th, as opposed to 9th, where they just sat on shelves. Something like the Sisters dex where they were obviously built around the ideas in place for the next edition.

I agree in wanting them to be buffed, but I still want them to feel like guardsmen. I don't want them to feel liek less tough marines though, would much rather it be a human horde personally. The beauty of guard to me is in a world of ork waaghs, necron tombworlds, dark eldar invasions, tyranid spliter fleets, and chaos incursions the guard are just humans with a laser rifle and flakk armor made to the cheapest possible standard. I hate that GW dropped the floor for points to 5 points per model. Conscripts 3 points, guardsmen 4 points, Veterans 5 points (and make grots back to 2 points for orks while at it)

keep them cheap and make weapons upgrades even cheaper. Allow Vetran squads back into the troop choice. Bring back a purchasable upgrade for a 4+ armor save armor per unit for veterans. Allow Guard to ignore the flier limitation with Valkries moved to dedicated transport specifically, but keep the 2 limit for vendettas. cheap tanks, cheap chimeras etc. there should be a absolute mass of guardsman models on the board all not super durable but with a decent punch and when you wipe out a squad there are 3 more squads behind it.

There is no way, shape, or form where "purchaseable to a 4+ upgrade" is acceptable given that Aeldari Guardians are 4+ saves now.

Did GW actually call this "the year of Chaos"? I'm 99% sure they didn't, just like they never called 2019 or whatever "Year of Xenos". It is uncanny how these memes spread like wildfire...

They didn't call it "the year of Chaos", no. But they did say this...:

And in December, we’ll see brand new codexes for xenos and Imperial armies. What could they be? We can’t tell you, which has nothing to do with the Inquisitor looming menacingly behind us…

Eagle-eyed heretics** may note the lack of codexes for the Traitor Legions. Do not despair, as 2022 will be a bumper year for warp-based shenanigans.

 Kanluwen wrote:
There is no way, shape, or form where "purchaseable to a 4+ upgrade" is acceptable given that Aeldari Guardians are 4+ saves now.

sure there is, it depends on how much the model costs.

currently 5.5 points per model vs 9 points per model

3.5 points buys 1 inch movement, +1 BS +1WS -1 attack from the unit (sarg getting its2) a +1 armor save and a better but shorter range gun (+1str, -1 Ap with shuriken) each have thier special rule, battle focus vs orders

Now the guardian is better and I would agree its better for the points but does it mean guard need to get a 4+ (an if so are they now 6-6.5 points per model units?) or does it mean they should go down in points? i mean either could work to balance them. I think the eldar lorewise are giving much better armor to their guardians than the imperium, since the imperium can take more losses, but if pointed appropriately also no problem.

Guardians and Guardsmen were more or less 1:1 matches. If one changed, the other one should too.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Did GW actually call this "the year of Chaos"?.

They did. It was a comment, something along the lines of "next year will be great for Chaos players"
not some official naming.
They implied Chaos players would be pretty happy. I wasn't sure if they meant 40k/AoS/both/or across all thier games.

I shrugged, happy for whatever Chaos players they meant. My wallet heaved a sigh of relief as the most ill be spending on Chaos in '22 is likely to be 3 books books for AoS. Unless they do something REALLY dramatic concerning the models.....

The_Real_Chris wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
Guard. It's Guard. Knights codices are announced as next after nids, and Chaos is teased to be right after.

"To each of us falls a task, and all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand the line, and we die fighting. It is what we do best. We die standing."

Nah they will be the third codex in 10th edition

You know, the more I think about it, if we get a codex that early into 10th, we might as well skip a 9th ed codex...

 Kanluwen wrote:
Guardians and Guardsmen were more or less 1:1 matches. If one changed, the other one should too.

orks an space marines in editions past (2nd and 3rd) were pretty much the same profile, things change. If you want 9 point guardsman with that profile then sure that is one way GW could go, its just not what I want to see from them personally, to many armies in the lets go more and more elite. GW with 9th has made most horde type of armies no longer viable. If they made guardsmen an actual horde of humans with flashlight army I would be breaking out my guard and getting more models to build it up. Its just the type of army I personally like playing.

That's cool, but remember that the "actual horde of humans with flashlights" have traditionally been depicted with very little in the way of armor. And that there literally was a difference between a "Flak Jacket" and "Flak Armor".

yea, and to be clear I think both would work. you could make guardsmen more elite with better saves. I could even see having you veterans and your guardsman at 4+ for increased points and introducing something between a conscript and a guardsman since in the fluff there is often planetary defense troops in the mix. make them limited in orders and worse stats, but cheap as chips, for an in between profile. If its just another more elite codex though I think my guardsmen are likely to stay on the shelf in diorama depicting them fighting alongside my dark angels vs chaos demons and chaos marines.

While guard is leading the pack, I think SMs 2.0 will be the last one before 10th.

I think Guard will be the first codex of 10th, but with 9th edition rules, so it will be completely invalid upon release.

Engaging Kan on the Guardsman armor topic is just not worth it. No Kan, there's no compelling reason why Guardsmen and Guardians have the same armor, and there are plenty of compelling reasons that they don't have the same armor. I'm not going to say another word on that topic.

And on the "Year of Chaos" thing... c'mon folks. Warhammer Community is a marketing team. Of course they will say "look out Heretics, you'll get lots of cool stuff this year!" They say that about everything every time they put out content. It's just silly to read anything into that.

They actually don't usually call out one specific army like they did there.

But anyways, there's no reason why Guardsmen can't be bumped to a 4+ save...provided we're talking about the Cadian or Vostroyan design aesthetic.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Engaging Kan on the Guardsman armor topic is just not worth it. No Kan, there's no compelling reason why Guardsmen and Guardians have the same armor, and there are plenty of compelling reasons that they don't have the same armor. I'm not going to say another word on that topic.

Traditionally armour went...
Flak - 6+ (5+ vs explosions) - Guardsmen
Mesh - 5+ - Eldar
Carapace - 4+ - Aspects, fancy humans, etc.
Power - 3+ - Marines

 Dysartes wrote:

Voss wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
Guard. It's Guard. Knights codices are announced as next after nids, and Chaos is teased to be right after.

"To each of us falls a task, and all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand the line, and we die fighting. It is what we do best. We die standing."

Could still be daemons. Probably will be daemons, so we have a break from all that chaos.
We've got multiple guard rumor engine pics now, and nothing for daemons (the wings are in the chaos marine teaser)

I guess two is multiple (Death/Rough Rider spear, Kasrkin wrist w/auspex) - weren't most of the others that were possibly Guard covered by the Ash Wastes stuff?

I looked, but there were one or two others (the 'luggage' with the 'switch') that I couldn't find on the Ash Wastes stuff (though I'll admit to not being exhaustive in my efforts).

But still, we've got guard stuff and rumors and daemons are a big fat egg. Which might mean a solo book and maybe a model (one or another herald, for example). I'd hope for a bit more, but...

If they wanted a single-model release for Daemons, a plastic Herald of Slaanesh on foot would fit that bill easily enough. Or a plastic Tzeentch Herald, on or off Disc.

I went looking for the year of chaos post on warcom. From what I've been able to discern, various forums have attributed the statement to the Christmas day preview, which of course was Eldritch Omens.

The statement in that post was:

"This box is on its way soon, and it’s just the start of an incredible year for the Aeldari, Chaos, and Warhammer 40,000 in general."

I don't think a 4+ is reasonable. Lest we forget, not to long ago, a LR tank was a 3+. Guard are paper people, with wet pool noodles for weapons. They shouldn't be able to tank Splinter guns to the face, or lasguns. They should always die when looked at strongly.

That being said, if you buff lasguns it becomes stupid, conscripts running around with 30 S4 ap0 D1 shots, or 60 at <12". No thank you. This is what I mean. Where can you surgically alter guard in any meaningful way? I'm not saying it's impossible, but many people here have seen more 40k than I will in my life, and must have a semblance of an idea.

I did like the "resources" system that someone mentioned, back when 9th first dropped. Basically, each turn the Guard player gets and extra 250+X extra "Reserve points" if they've Held the Line, or whatever. That said, they can then use that to "summon" heavier units. So if they Hold the line for 3 turns, they can summon like 3 conscript squads, a baneblade, and a fleet of Basalisks. I dunno, that's breaking 9th though.

So honestly, what Ideas are there for saving guard?

Mesh armor is the same thing as Flak for all intents and purposes of 40k.

Unless you go and do something like:

Flak Armor provides a 5+ save and <insert bonus here> versus Blast or Template weapons.

Flak Jackets provide a 6+ save and <insert bonus here> while in terrain.

Guard at 4+ as a default doesn't make a lot of sense to me. They're not Eldar.

Elite Guard infantry - like Storm Troopers/Grenadiers - would be the 4+, which is Carapace armour. Unless you want that to go to 3+, or maybe 4+ but they have transhuman to represent it being slightly thicker, and the rules escalation continues?

So, here me out: Here's my conspiracy theory. GW is making Scions integrated into guard now, as a full on troops/elite/HQ choice. You will now be able to take Guard Squads, Conscripts, and "STORM TROOPERS" that change name depending on regiment. Storm Troopers get access to heavy and special weapons just like the scions, but can't include HWTs. They get Better BS/WS, because they are better guard. They get a 4+ armor save because Carapace. And they can only be taken 1x1 for each guard squad. They can keep all the Scion rules (drop insertion, etc) but they lose all the cool Scion rules of 8th, and instead just get a special set of strats per their main Sub faction, Cadian, Catachan, etc.

This gives Guard players access to super cheap high value shooting, with good BS, and can still run squads of Hellguns on FRFSRF which is gonna be ugly if they buff hell guns to S5.

Voss wrote:

Arcanis161 wrote:
Guard. It's Guard. Knights codices are announced as next after nids, and Chaos is teased to be right after.

"To each of us falls a task, and all the Emperor requires of us Guardsmen is that we stand the line, and we die fighting. It is what we do best. We die standing."

Could still be daemons. Probably will be daemons, so we have a break from all that chaos.
We've got multiple guard rumor engine pics now, and nothing for daemons (the wings are in the chaos marine teaser)

I'd like to change my guess to Squats?

My money is on AM being last.