So essentially a chit-chat thread with no particular agenda or point to make. I like throwing such threads out on occasion, and they often prove pretty interesting and even enlightening.
The question is the title. Here i mean army by Codex, rather than a specific army you field. And I don’t intend things which are design choices (for instance, decent HTH units for Tau). And yes, I know some will not unjustifiably say “well, my Codex”. But if we can take that as read for now (or indeed not, given lack of codex for some).
The one that springs immediately to mind for me would be Chaos, and effective/dedicated ground based AA options. I apologise if my ignorance embarrasses me, but I’m pretty sure it’s just Havocs with Flakk Missiles. Yes the Heldrake is capable of eating enemy fliers, but I’m not seeing any particular background reason why CSM would have at least a Rhino Chassis’d option.
Imperial Guard: some unit/mechanics simulating mines/minefields/minelayers/minesweepers. For something that was/is heavily used since WW1 I find it surprisingly lacking. Especially as Tyranids have such a mechanic.
Also even if I have great doupts if such a unit could be made relavent in a competetive manner: a simple unarmored truck as troops transport, for the same reason. As baseline human army faction the Guard should have lots of those, likely more than Chimeras.
Jidmah wrote: Orks pretty much have everything they need, except, of course, someone at the studio willing to write decent rules for the army.
Obligatory shout-out to grot snipers though.
I would like to see the looted tank get a proper entry into a codex. Although, do the orks need a dedicated armoured fighting vehicle? It's probably redundant by this point with all the different buggies. The battlefortress would be nice, but who needs more lords of war options, really?
For my Death Guard? Obliterators probably. Everything else that has been cut when we got our own Codex I can understand for fluff reasons.
For my Nurgle Daemons?
Something shooty like a Plague Catapult.
Also some medium sized Monster, larger than the beast but smaller than a GUO, more like the spined Chaos beast or the giant Chaos Spawn that FW has (or like a Carnifex for that matter).
For my Snakebites, all the Squigs. I'm using all kinds of AoS Squigs as unit fillers or proxys, I wouldn't mind getting actual rules for them.
Jidmah wrote: Orks pretty much have everything they need, except, of course, someone at the studio willing to write decent rules for the army.
Obligatory shout-out to grot snipers though.
I would like to see the looted tank get a proper entry into a codex. Although, do the orks need a dedicated armoured fighting vehicle? It's probably redundant by this point with all the different buggies. The battlefortress would be nice, but who needs more lords of war options, really?
Buggies are essentially the ork versions of the rhino chassis tanks, plus we also got the kill rig and hunta rig as modern age battle fortresses.
There really is precious little design space left for ork tanks that don't overlap with the many vehicles we have now.
The looted tank datasheets in this edition are actually one of the best ones ever, the only issue is that they are attached to the defunct scrap mechanic.
Jidmah wrote: Old warbuggies? That's one you don't hear often. How come?
I know deffkoptas are just them but better, but they would be perfect as a tyranid warrior equivalent, hear me out. High toughness, multiple wounds, and they could have a solid array of options. Not infantry, but they’d be a solid elite unit.
For marines all we're missing is a super heavy (and yes I know forge world, but I'm talking things in the CODEX) although I'm expecting with the shift of the spartan to plastic that to be in the 10th edition Marine 'dex
Jidmah wrote: Old warbuggies? That's one you don't hear often. How come?
I know deffkoptas are just them but better, but they would be perfect as a tyranid warrior equivalent, hear me out. High toughness, multiple wounds, and they could have a solid array of options. Not infantry, but they’d be a solid elite unit.
I feel like that's what squig riders are supposed to be. But I agree that there would be room for another unit like that with different options.
- HQs that actually serve different roles beyond being arbitrarily tied to different subfactions. Currently, we have a melee HQ, another melee HQ and (just to mix things up) yet another melee HQ. And no, I don't count the Haemonculus as a support HQ because an HQ that does nothing but stand around, picking his nose, isn't a support unit it's a glorified hat-stand.
Compare this to Harlequins, which also have very few characters but nevertheless manage to give them very distinct roles (you've got a melee character, a psychic/support character and a shooty character). Plus, you can then further customise them via Pivotal Roles. Meanwhile, DE characters only get a single Master upgrade each, none of which make any meaningful difference to how they play.
- Some new HQs in general would be nice. Especially if the army is going to continue being pointlessly split into 3 micro-factions. As it stands, we have 0 demi-HQs (like the Dracon or lesser-Haemonculus we used to have), nor anything to represent Mandrakes, Scourges or even Beasts.
- Continuing the issues with current DE being boring-as-feth, some sodding wargear would be nice. We used to have pages of options, now we get a pitiful selection of weapons and nothing else.
- Some mobility options beyond just vehicles.
- Can we maybe have some of our lost units back (or something to replace them)? At this point, I think about 1/3 of our codex has been deleted, yet it's been at least 11 years since we last got a new unit.
As an Emp's Children player I'd like to see noise marine terminators and get my sonic dreadnaughts and other vehicles back. I mean how hard can it be to hand a terminator a sonic blaster or blast master and say "Point it this way and pull this trigger." And we used to have a vehcile modification that was something like a doomsiren.
Exodites. Maybe something similar to Harlequins so you can take a patrol to represent the inhabitants the craftworlds have come to help or just their own force really.
It's a range with such potential if done well.
Orks (well Grots as that's what I'm playing....)
*a generic grot hq choice.
Because right now there's only two.
1) Makari - named unique grot.
2) The Red Gobbo on Bounca - named unique unit grot that's in the Legends section.
Why is this a problem? Because:
A) alot of events/tourneys don't allow Legends units.
This limits someone looking to run pure grots to only 1 detachment since Makari is the only choice.
B) in Crusade the ork Crusade rules actually specify that named unique characters CAN NOT lead the force. They can be used, just not as the Crusades warlord. So the would be Grot player is forced to break thier theme - in narrative play! - by including an ork of some sort. WTF?
I don't care what this hypothetical generic hq grot even does. It could do literally nothing. It just needs to exist!
EDIT: And in the category of things I'd like but aren't truly needed?
Grots riding sqigs. Like I have over in AoS. The unarmored ones with handweapons could be Fast units & the armored ones Heavy units. And of course generic hq squig riding grots.
Then I could do a more feral Snake Bite themed grot force.
A few more actual thousand sons in the thousand sons army. They have a tactical squad and a terminator squad and can field a rather nice specialist "assault squad" with flamers, but they're missing a big section of units you'd normally expect from Astartes. (Death guard also suffer a similar issue)
Even if they swapped their jump packs or bikes for discs, screamers or some other mount you'd expect they'd have a fast attack element, along with a devastator/ havoc equivalent and a melee focused assault element. You could pull more from the Egyptian aesthetic and have a chariot too.
I've suddenly got an urge to convert a sorcerer riding a chariot pulled by screamers! (probably the world earliest kit bash! Although I've no idea what I'd use it as)
Orks are missing melee weapon variety for infantry/cavalry beyond a smattering of D2 weaponry that is both not cheap and frankly boring given how a race based around war has no real options beyond choppas, big choppas and power klaws/killsaws (power stabbas are a joke and don't count).
We're also missing functional morale rules for Mob Rule and incentives for taking large units, in addition to rules that show a WAAAGH! being led by a Big Mek instead of a Warboss, particularly for Dred Mobz.
HQs on mounts/fly
Important named characters (Like Vect, Baron, etc...)
Lts, like Dracons, etc.... I shouldn't be allowed to take 2 Archons in any list, so give me a Dracon (50pts Archon with 1 less attack, wound, no Shadowfields).
Necrons are missing Harbingers of the Storm and Harbingers of Transmogrification from the 5th edition Cryptek line-up. I think it'd make the most sense for Pariahs to be characters to set them apart from Lychguard.
The Black Adder wrote: A few more actual thousand sons in the thousand sons army. They have a tactical squad and a terminator squad and can field a rather nice specialist "assault squad" with flamers, but they're missing a big section of units you'd normally expect from Astartes. (Death guard also suffer a similar issue)
Even if they swapped their jump packs or bikes for discs, screamers or some other mount you'd expect they'd have a fast attack element, along with a devastator/ havoc equivalent and a melee focused assault element. You could pull more from the Egyptian aesthetic and have a chariot too.
I think you are forgetting Tzaangor Enlightened, it makes sense to me that Rubrics are meant to be slow and stupid, while Aspiring Sorcerers are too few in number to mount a unit on discs since that single unit could be replaced with 5 units of Rubrics. I personally hate the option of overcosting units to prevent people from spamming them, so a lot of the time you'd see people taking more Death Guard bikes than Death Guard infantry which would be very unfluffy.
I've suddenly got an urge to convert a sorcerer riding a chariot pulled by screamers! (probably the world earliest kit bash! Although I've no idea what I'd use it as)
Tzeentch says "Hi" ...oh, you meant for the other Gods?
I would actually like to see a move back to running undivided armies. When 8th edition rolled around, GW got the idea that Chaos Daemons should basically be mono-god on the table top. When I started playing Daemons in 7th edition, there was no down side to mixing and matching between the sub-factions. Restricting a player to only use a quarter of their codex is daft.
Custodes, an artillery unit. I was hoping they'd do something like the AoS Celestar Ballista, but 40k it. Finally give the banana boys one thing with ranged ability.
cuda1179 wrote: Custodes, an artillery unit. I was hoping they'd do something like the AoS Celestar Ballista, but 40k it. Finally give the banana boys one thing with ranged ability.
Orks? Honestly, more options, like shootas for Kommandos and Squigriders as an option. Ard' boys upgrade. Looted wagon, the new killrig is imo just an meh designed unit and model.
Oh and a competent rulesdesigner for once?
R&H, technically my main army... yeah a Codex / IA list would be nice. One that doesn't just relegate us into the CSM codex where mortal units are doomed to suck because some people can't deal with the fact that CSM don't field CSM all that often due to csm being bad designed as an unit entry. Also medium seized Fieldguns.
CSM: Options, for HQ and elite charachters. CSMCSM that are actually worth it for once and not just spiky firstborn but worse. the HH arsenal access should be switched between loyalists and CSM. More daemonengines along the vein of the Decimator and the Xana II lineage of aircraft, less dinobots.
GSC: Options for HQ's and Elite charachters (f.e. carapace armour). A more durable Troop choice? Like a Cult honor guard could even tie them to 1/ specific charachter. Padding in the heavy and Fast attack slot in regards to unit options.
Space Wolves: nothing. I actually pursposefull ignore 75% of the codex/supplements units since I don't need them and don't like the models.
Orks: also close to nothing, their roster is huge and we have everything. One thing I'd really like is having more troops: only 3 options out of a codex that has a hundred datasheets is pretty limiting, especially cosnidering that lots of elites/FA/HS are really cheap and slots are filled up pretty fast. With the upcoming CP system that might be a problem, for a faction that is already hard to keep near top levels. In 3rd edition units like tankbustas or burnaboyz were troops. SW have 7-8 troop units.
Tzeentch says "Hi" ...oh, you meant for the other Gods?
I would actually like to see a move back to running undivided armies. When 8th edition rolled around, GW got the idea that Chaos Daemons should basically be mono-god on the table top. When I started playing Daemons in 7th edition, there was no down side to mixing and matching between the sub-factions. Restricting a player to only use a quarter of their codex is daft.
In AoS (which uses mostly the same models) they are split out.
I think mono-daemon armies are cool, and if you look in the 4th edition daemons book, it says that both are viable ways to play but a mono-army will be harder.
So GW has always had the door open for mono-god armies, and that door should always be open.
If you asked what my Slaanesh Daemons miss the most, it is basically "a soul". The army doesn't feel like Lovecraftian horrors from beyond (like 30k) or a riot of seductive creatures that know your secrets and desires (like AoS). They're basically just Tyranids that trade psychic proficiency and shooting for faster movement and slightly better melee.
I agree with Kanluwen, my armies don't miss any models (well except some minor upgrades), but interesting rules. My Dark Angels suffer from space marine bloat, Necrons have to many confusing stacks of rules, IG is well, IG. Can't comment on the current knights yet. And Chaos is just as bad.
Yeah my factions lack interesting rules but I'm already at odds with the core rules and missions, I can't really see how this is going to be fixed anytime soon.
Tzeentch says "Hi" ...oh, you meant for the other Gods?
I would actually like to see a move back to running undivided armies. When 8th edition rolled around, GW got the idea that Chaos Daemons should basically be mono-god on the table top. When I started playing Daemons in 7th edition, there was no down side to mixing and matching between the sub-factions. Restricting a player to only use a quarter of their codex is daft.
Tzeentch's shooting isn't even very good.
But yeah, it's DEFINITELY needed for the other three.
Tzeentch says "Hi" ...oh, you meant for the other Gods?
I would actually like to see a move back to running undivided armies. When 8th edition rolled around, GW got the idea that Chaos Daemons should basically be mono-god on the table top. When I started playing Daemons in 7th edition, there was no down side to mixing and matching between the sub-factions. Restricting a player to only use a quarter of their codex is daft.
In AoS (which uses mostly the same models) they are split out.
I think mono-daemon armies are cool, and if you look in the 4th edition daemons book, it says that both are viable ways to play but a mono-army will be harder.
So GW has always had the door open for mono-god armies, and that door should always be open.
If you asked what my Slaanesh Daemons miss the most, it is basically "a soul". The army doesn't feel like Lovecraftian horrors from beyond (like 30k) or a riot of seductive creatures that know your secrets and desires (like AoS). They're basically just Tyranids that trade psychic proficiency and shooting for faster movement and slightly better melee.
Yeah, fair enough. I'm not super familiar with the AoS side of things, but aren't the God specific battletomes a mix of Daemons and Mortals? I don't think it's unreasonable to want the same synergies in 40k.
As a Custodes player?
More units and Armor of Contempt plus better Terminators cuz ya know the elite squad with the best wargear around has worse terminators then anyone else. Also for less people to ignore invuln save it's like the only thing that's keeping Custodes alive and the top 3 armies just go "nawwwwwww".
The Black Adder wrote: A few more actual thousand sons in the thousand sons army. They have a tactical squad and a terminator squad and can field a rather nice specialist "assault squad" with flamers, but they're missing a big section of units you'd normally expect from Astartes. (Death guard also suffer a similar issue)
Even if they swapped their jump packs or bikes for discs, screamers or some other mount you'd expect they'd have a fast attack element, along with a devastator/ havoc equivalent and a melee focused assault element. You could pull more from the Egyptian aesthetic and have a chariot too.
I think you are forgetting Tzaangor Enlightened, it makes sense to me that Rubrics are meant to be slow and stupid, while Aspiring Sorcerers are too few in number to mount a unit on discs since that single unit could be replaced with 5 units of Rubrics. I personally hate the option of overcosting units to prevent people from spamming them, so a lot of the time you'd see people taking more Death Guard bikes than Death Guard infantry which would be very unfluffy.
No, I didn't forget the tzaangor but they're not thousand sons. I really like the option to mix in other chaotic troops, but if also like more legion options.
There's no need for them to be OP, but just something to add more variety when fielding an entirely legion based force.
I'm looking forward to getting some Deimos pattern vehicles when they're in plastic
I really miss Daemonhunters. While 9 times out of 10 I would take Grey Knights. I do kinda wish I could use Scions/Stromtroopers and Daemonhosts.
GW also doesn't seem 100% sure what they want with allied detachments too these days. Some inducted guard was a really cool addition. It also helped put more bodies on the board.
Tzeentch says "Hi" ...oh, you meant for the other Gods?
I would actually like to see a move back to running undivided armies. When 8th edition rolled around, GW got the idea that Chaos Daemons should basically be mono-god on the table top. When I started playing Daemons in 7th edition, there was no down side to mixing and matching between the sub-factions. Restricting a player to only use a quarter of their codex is daft.
In AoS (which uses mostly the same models) they are split out.
I think mono-daemon armies are cool, and if you look in the 4th edition daemons book, it says that both are viable ways to play but a mono-army will be harder.
So GW has always had the door open for mono-god armies, and that door should always be open.
If you asked what my Slaanesh Daemons miss the most, it is basically "a soul". The army doesn't feel like Lovecraftian horrors from beyond (like 30k) or a riot of seductive creatures that know your secrets and desires (like AoS). They're basically just Tyranids that trade psychic proficiency and shooting for faster movement and slightly better melee.
Yeah, fair enough. I'm not super familiar with the AoS side of things, but aren't the God specific battletomes a mix of Daemons and Mortals? I don't think it's unreasonable to want the same synergies in 40k.
They are, though there is often very few synergies between them (at least in the Slaanesh tome) and the Slaanesh tome was more powerful back when it was just Daemons.
For Slaanesh in AoS I run a perfectly viable list made from stuff that only has the Slaanesh and Daemon keywords.
Blackie wrote: Space Wolves: nothing. I actually pursposefull ignore 75% of the codex/supplements units since I don't need them and don't like the models.
Orks: also close to nothing, their roster is huge and we have everything. One thing I'd really like is having more troops: only 3 options out of a codex that has a hundred datasheets is pretty limiting, especially cosnidering that lots of elites/FA/HS are really cheap and slots are filled up pretty fast. With the upcoming CP system that might be a problem, for a faction that is already hard to keep near top levels. In 3rd edition units like tankbustas or burnaboyz were troops. SW have 7-8 troop units.
On that note, I think Orks could benefit greatly if they brought back the rule we had way back when of "If you take X HQ choice, you can take a single unit of Y as a troops choice". It would massively take the pressure off of our very crowded Elites and Fast Attack slots, and make up for the fact that our troops choices are probably the worst things in the book.
For example:
Ghaz - Mega Nobz
Mega Armoured Warboss - Mega Nobz
Warboss - Nobz
Beastboss on Squigosaur - Squighog Boyz
Beastboss - Squighog Boyz
Big Mek - Lootas or Burnas
Warboss on Warbike - Warbikers
Deffkilla Wartrike - Warbikers
Boss Snikrot - Kommandos
Boss Zagstruk - Storm Boyz
Kaptin Badrukk - Flash Gitz
Hecaton wrote: Clowns - A better Great Harlequin kit. Also Mimes.
Wouldn't an actual Great Harlequin kit/unit be a better wish? I see a Troupe Master as an option in the ToC from the Eldar 'dex, but no sign of the Great Harlequin.
Mimes might be a cool idea, too - an Infiltrator unit, possibly? Any thoughts on how you'd distinguish them from the Troupe in terms of design?
Orks (and plenty of other armies) could do with leuitenant or lower level characters to lead smaller forces. Also more oddboyz that don't take up slots, with more wargear options.
Lots more freebooter style units; the ability to mix clans in the same detachment.
Really I just want to field ogryns and human mercs in my Blood Axe army.
OK really really I just want to make a Rogue Trader era list that's legal to play now.
OK OK really really really please let's have snotling herds with runtbots. Do eeeet jimmy!
I would like to see Kroot get the Harlequin treatment, where they can field an army of just their own models. Just bringing back and updating the rules for the Knarloc Riders and Great Knarloc would technically be enough, but it would be nice to explore some of the other things Kroot can do. There are flying Kroot (yes I know that would step on the toes of the Vespid a little, but if they were CC focused rather than shooting, they'd be different enough.) Also, there are Kroot Psykers, it would be nice for the Tau to have a little bit of deny power even if they are still really weak in the Psycic phase. I mean, that is the point of the Auxiliaries (at least lore wise) to fill in the gaps in their strategies.
On that note, more Auxilliary races. There are plenty of units for the Tau proper, but lots of other races. I mean, the Inquisition can take Jokearo Weaponsmiths and the Tau cant, even though the Jokearo are allies with the Tau, at least at that data slate to the Tau codex, would be a nice little buffing unit.
Beyond that, bring back Necron Pariahs, they were awesome.
Blackie wrote: Space Wolves: nothing. I actually pursposefull ignore 75% of the codex/supplements units since I don't need them and don't like the models.
I sort of agree.
I would like some rules changes (like Wolf Guard keyword actually doing something meaningful, Long Fangs can split fire by shot, not weapon, Fenrisian Wolves gain Bodyguard keyword), and some wargear changes (Helfrost Pistol option on more than Techmarine, maybe a Helfrost Rifle, Grey Hunters can take Sternguard Special Issue Boltgun at +1 pt/ea), and some point changes (Wolf Guard keyword can take Combi- at reduced cost, Hounds of Morkai to 20 ppm and -1 AP on knife, Scouts down a point or up a point but +1W). Maybe move Reivers/Hounds of Morkai to Fast Attack and move speed to 10", Scouts also to Fast Attack.
But as far as missing units... Lone Wolf? I think they could probably probably just roll that into the Chapter Champion upgrade for Company Champion. Like swap Skillful Parry for a fight on death for free (maybe even if they already fought), and upgrade Exquisite Swordsman to be Character and Monster instead of just Character. Same +15 points, but can't be warlord and can't take a warlord trait.
Wolf Guard on Bike... roll into Bike Squad but give the option to trade out Swiftclaws(Berserk Charge and Headstrong) keyword for Wolf Guard keyword and +1 Attack base and additional Chainsword (which has the normal melee weapon swap options). Say, +3 points a model?
If we're consolidating datasheets, I'd probably also fold Wolf Guard into Company Veterans but add the jump pack option (still at +4 points). Maybe tack Wolf Priests (Chaplains) into their Command Squad rule to make up for the smaller squad size. Company Vets are +1 point over Wolf Guard, but add Bodyguard, Command Squad, +1 leadership on the Sergeant, and slightly more weapon options, so probably balanced.
If I was doing Primaris version of Blood Claws, I'd just start with Assault Intercessors with the Swiftclaws keyword. But instead of +1 attack with Berserk Charge, make it +1 Strength with Shock Assault. So not quite as good as +1 attack, but up more often. Primaris Skyclaws just add a jump pack for +2 points.
Primaris Grey Hunters: Sternguard but with 1/5 swap for Combi- instead of any number, and a free chainsword on everyone. Same 20 points a model.
Primaris Pack Leaders: can be added to any Troop (and Skyclaws). Power Armor version is a Bladeguard Sergeant, "Terminator" is a Gravis, probably Aggressor Sergeant. Primaris Skyclaw Wolf Guard pack leader probably an Inceptor with Aggressor arms.
PaddyMick wrote: Orks (and plenty of other armies) could do with leuitenant or lower level characters to lead smaller forces. Also more oddboyz that don't take up slots, with more wargear options.
Yep, Bigboss please, and slotless Oddboyz for a Warboss' retinue.
PaddyMick wrote: the ability to mix clans in the same detachment.
Imperial Knights could do with just one more variant of Armiger, to spice up combat patrols. At the moment its basically pick either a Helverin or Armiger, and thats it. In this respect the grass is much greener for Chaos Knights...
I'd like to see a Great Harlequin or just something new to look forward to.
PaddyMick wrote: Orks (and plenty of other armies) could do with leuitenant or lower level characters to lead smaller forces.
Lower level characters aren't needed to lead smaller forces. You get a free relic and WL trait and throwing those on a lower level character is generally a waste. Orks also have the Warboss upgrade for when you need to denote a Warboss for being extra important.
Tawnis wrote: I would like to see Kroot get the Harlequin treatment, where they can field an army of just their own models. Just bringing back and updating the rules for the Knarloc Riders and Great Knarloc would technically be enough, but it would be nice to explore some of the other things Kroot can do. There are flying Kroot (yes I know that would step on the toes of the Vespid a little, but if they were CC focused rather than shooting, they'd be different enough.) Also, there are Kroot Psykers, it would be nice for the Tau to have a little bit of deny power even if they are still really weak in the Psycic phase. I mean, that is the point of the Auxiliaries (at least lore wise) to fill in the gaps in their strategies.
On that note, more Auxilliary races. There are plenty of units for the Tau proper, but lots of other races. I mean, the Inquisition can take Jokearo Weaponsmiths and the Tau cant, even though the Jokearo are allies with the Tau, at least at that data slate to the Tau codex, would be a nice little buffing unit.
"Yeah, an anti-psyker melee battlesuit is exactly what Tau needs" - GW /sarcasm
Mimes might be a cool idea, too - an Infiltrator unit, possibly? Any thoughts on how you'd distinguish them from the Troupe in terms of design?
Mimes would need to really distinguish themselves from Solitaires rather than Troupes, IMO.
They could be set up as the Harlequin equivalent to a Callidus though...
I had Mimes down in my head as a unit, rather than a character - that alone should be enough to distinguish them from the Solitaire, no?
4 out of 8 Harlequins datasheets are already characters.... they definitely don't need another one. A second infantry squad would be nice instead! Infiltrator or even a dedicated shooting unit maybe.
PaddyMick wrote: Orks (and plenty of other armies) could do with leuitenant or lower level characters to lead smaller forces.
Lower level characters aren't needed to lead smaller forces. You get a free relic and WL trait and throwing those on a lower level character is generally a waste. Orks also have the Warboss upgrade for when you need to denote a Warboss for being extra important.
Maybe your right if we are only thinking about building an army to be competative. However I'd quite like the option, to fit my fluff, to have a lower level boss to lead a patrol, or a right hand man in the big army for the warboss, for example.
PaddyMick wrote: Orks (and plenty of other armies) could do with leuitenant or lower level characters to lead smaller forces.
Lower level characters aren't needed to lead smaller forces. You get a free relic and WL trait and throwing those on a lower level character is generally a waste. Orks also have the Warboss upgrade for when you need to denote a Warboss for being extra important.
Maybe your right if we are only thinking about building an army to be competative. However I'd quite like the option, to fit my fluff, to have a lower level boss to lead a patrol, or a right hand man in the big army for the warboss, for example.
Having a kickass HQ is cool, in Crusade you'll want a character that can lead armies from 25-100 PL. In a big army I'd refer back to the Stratagem. One Warboss can cover one part of your army while the other one covers another part. People were spamming Daemon Princes, no reason why Warbosses cannot be spammed except pts-efficiency. You aren't missing out on too much, you could try to post and playtest a homebrew big boss you'd like to have in the suggested rules section of the forum.
PaddyMick wrote: Orks (and plenty of other armies) could do with leuitenant or lower level characters to lead smaller forces.
Lower level characters aren't needed to lead smaller forces. You get a free relic and WL trait and throwing those on a lower level character is generally a waste. Orks also have the Warboss upgrade for when you need to denote a Warboss for being extra important.
The thing is, you can't call a Waaagh! without a warboss, and you cannot promote another character to be a warboss like you could in the previous codex because both the corresponding warlord trait and upgrade stratagem have been taken away, as well as the upgrade for bigger warbosses.
Leading a small ork force with anything but a warboss or speedboss is pretty much on the same level having a canoness lead a space marine army - you can technically do it and it might be fluffy, but your army is going to be crap on the tabletop.
PaddyMick wrote: Orks (and plenty of other armies) could do with leuitenant or lower level characters to lead smaller forces.
Lower level characters aren't needed to lead smaller forces. You get a free relic and WL trait and throwing those on a lower level character is generally a waste. Orks also have the Warboss upgrade for when you need to denote a Warboss for being extra important.
The thing is, you can't call a Waaagh! without a warboss, and you cannot promote another character to be a warboss like you could in the previous codex because both the corresponding warlord trait and upgrade stratagem have been taken away, as well as the upgrade for bigger warbosses.
Leading a small ork force with anything but a warboss or speedboss is pretty much on the same level having a canoness lead a space marine army - you can technically do it and it might be fluffy, but your army is going to be crap on the tabletop.
Depends what you've built.
In my Grot force the Warboss (and calling a Waaagh!) is almost irrelevant. Other than himself there's nothing for him to affect with the Waagh. And, Crusade or matched, the force definitely is not crap on the tabletop.
I have a WB in MA in the list because:
A) In Crusade I'm not allowed to lead the Crusade with either Makari or the Red Gobbo. There are no generic Grot characters, so I need an Ork of some sort. If I must have an Ork? Well, the MAWB is the most useful to me.
In matched play the force is always led by either Makari or the Red Gobbo.
B) Crusade or Matched, without the some sort of Ork I'd be limited to at most two detachments. That'll certainly work as nearly everything is Fast/Heavy, but having access to a 3rd detachment is still useful. And as I STILL don't want an Ork character, I'll be damned if I'm going to buy another one of some sort when I already own the one I need Crusade wise....
PaddyMick wrote: Orks (and plenty of other armies) could do with leuitenant or lower level characters to lead smaller forces.
Lower level characters aren't needed to lead smaller forces. You get a free relic and WL trait and throwing those on a lower level character is generally a waste. Orks also have the Warboss upgrade for when you need to denote a Warboss for being extra important.
The thing is, you can't call a Waaagh! without a warboss, and you cannot promote another character to be a warboss like you could in the previous codex because both the corresponding warlord trait and upgrade stratagem have been taken away, as well as the upgrade for bigger warbosses.
Leading a small ork force with anything but a warboss or speedboss is pretty much on the same level having a canoness lead a space marine army - you can technically do it and it might be fluffy, but your army is going to be crap on the tabletop.
If the hypothetical Big Boss had the WARBOSS keyword it wouldn't be a problem, it's a shame they removed the upgrade Stratagems, can't believe GW wasted so much of people's time and money on Psychic Awakening only to wipe it away almost entirely.
Depends what you've built. In my Grot force the Warboss (and calling a Waaagh!) is almost irrelevant. Other than himself there's nothing for him to affect with the Waagh. And, Crusade or matched, the force definitely is not crap on the tabletop. I have a WB in MA in the list because: A) In Crusade I'm not allowed to lead the Crusade with either Makari or the Red Gobbo. There are no generic Grot characters, so I need an Ork of some sort. If I must have an Ork? Well, the MAWB is the most useful to me. In matched play the force is always led by either Makari or the Red Gobbo. B) Crusade or Matched, without the some sort of Ork I'd be limited to at most two detachments. That'll certainly work as nearly everything is Fast/Heavy, but having access to a 3rd detachment is still useful. And as I STILL don't want an Ork character, I'll be damned if I'm going to buy another one of some sort when I already own the one I need Crusade wise....
Look, I appreciate you having fun playing shark with your gretchins in your local fishpond, but your experience doesn't really match what happens when people meet opponents who actually build a coherent force and play to win.
Orks already struggle to fight off "one of everything" crusade forces unless you bring at least a somewhat competitive build, playing without a Waaagh! isn't an option.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vict0988 wrote: If the hypothetical Big Boss had the WARBOSS keyword it wouldn't be a problem, it's a shame they removed the upgrade Stratagems, can't believe GW wasted so much of people's time and money on Psychic Awakening only to wipe it away almost entirely.
Well, they kept all the kustom jobs and stratagems from PA that no one used around, so people could continue to no use them. Almost everything good or fun from that book disappeared.
Tawnis wrote: I would like to see Kroot get the Harlequin treatment, where they can field an army of just their own models. Just bringing back and updating the rules for the Knarloc Riders and Great Knarloc would technically be enough, but it would be nice to explore some of the other things Kroot can do. There are flying Kroot (yes I know that would step on the toes of the Vespid a little, but if they were CC focused rather than shooting, they'd be different enough.) Also, there are Kroot Psykers, it would be nice for the Tau to have a little bit of deny power even if they are still really weak in the Psycic phase. I mean, that is the point of the Auxiliaries (at least lore wise) to fill in the gaps in their strategies.
On that note, more Auxilliary races. There are plenty of units for the Tau proper, but lots of other races. I mean, the Inquisition can take Jokearo Weaponsmiths and the Tau cant, even though the Jokearo are allies with the Tau, at least at that data slate to the Tau codex, would be a nice little buffing unit.
"Yeah, an anti-psyker melee battlesuit is exactly what Tau needs" - GW /sarcasm
I thought this was about what models we wanted for the factions. What balance we want for the factions is a whole different thing.
Deathwatch is as bloated as any other marine sub-faction, but if I were to say anything:
Suppressors as an option in one of the kill teams.
The standard Intercessor Kill Team is in an awkward spot. A lot of its 8th identity became the Gravis Kill Team based around Heavy Intercessors and the basic boys are just an odd mix of leftover Primaris options. Not sure what they need, but right now there's a lot of melee here that doesn't really work, leaving them as basically Hellblasters ablative wounds.
Hecaton wrote: Clowns - A better Great Harlequin kit. Also Mimes.
Wouldn't an actual Great Harlequin kit/unit be a better wish? I see a Troupe Master as an option in the ToC from the Eldar 'dex, but no sign of the Great Harlequin.
Mimes might be a cool idea, too - an Infiltrator unit, possibly? Any thoughts on how you'd distinguish them from the Troupe in terms of design?
So canonically there's a differentiation, but I'm an old fether so I tend to call the "Troupe Master" Great Harlequin because it's what I'm used to. I'm not old enough to call them "High Avatar" though. The signature flags need to make a comeback though, they're a cool motif.
Yeah, they'd be an Infiltrator unit. If you go back to the original Mime entry in Rogue Trader, they were actually substantially more elite than Troupers - higher WS and BS, 2 wounds (when that wasn't very common), 2 attacks the the OG Harlequin's 1, and higher mental stats and Initiative. So I'd make them a more elite unit, definitely. Give them that pre-game move or the ability to set up anywhere not within 9" of the enemy.
Hecaton wrote: Clowns - A better Great Harlequin kit. Also Mimes.
Wouldn't an actual Great Harlequin kit/unit be a better wish? I see a Troupe Master as an option in the ToC from the Eldar 'dex, but no sign of the Great Harlequin.
Mimes might be a cool idea, too - an Infiltrator unit, possibly? Any thoughts on how you'd distinguish them from the Troupe in terms of design?
So canonically there's a differentiation, but I'm an old fether so I tend to call the "Troupe Master" Great Harlequin because it's what I'm used to. I'm not old enough to call them "High Avatar" though. The signature flags need to make a comeback though, they're a cool motif.
Yeah, they'd be an Infiltrator unit. If you go back to the original Mime entry in Rogue Trader, they were actually substantially more elite than Troupers - higher WS and BS, 2 wounds (when that wasn't very common), 2 attacks the the OG Harlequin's 1, and higher mental stats and Initiative. So I'd make them a more elite unit, definitely. Give them that pre-game move or the ability to set up anywhere not within 9" of the enemy.
I really like 3 model elite units, like Deathshroud or Eliminators. A 3~6 size unit of Mimes in the Elite slot would be cool.
For TSons, we always get the old pyschic dread request, but given my love of 3 model elite units I also like the idea of a Spellblade or a 'While You Were Casting, I Studied the Blade" style unit. 3 models with no dusty Rubrics/Scarabs, it could be a Master and his two Apprentices (in scout armour) to keep a bit more on theme with the low numbers of actual TSons.
For years I've been more painting and modeling than playing so I'm coming more from that point of view.
Imperial Guard - A fun unit! Just give me a unit of commandos who can take anything, power swords, flamers, heavy weapons, whatever, something like the new DKK plastic unit or the old Catachan Devils. Give them infiltrate, cameo and let them loose to do their jobs. An A-Team, Last Chancers, GI Joe, Howling Commandos, Easy Company type unit so I can give them all cool nick names like Icepick and rules that at least give them a vague chance of doing something other than dying. Vet and command squads are too regimented and meant for long range shooting, I'm looking more for action movie heroes.
Oh and jeeps. And a troop truck. Cheap options, not more supertanks!
Oh and a Thunderbolt kit. With work it could include the Lightning and the Avenger too, but at least the Thunderbolt.
Oh and fortifications, actually in the codex. Why is it the gunline WWI army doesn't have this option built in? I'm thinking a squad upgrade, 12" defense line, +2 saves, 20 points. 40 points for a 8"x8" bunker that offers 360 degree protection.
For Space Marines I'd mostly want to just combine all the identical unit lists into one (IE: Land Raiders, Land Speeders, Storm Speeders, etc.) other then that maybe add something that allows Scouts as Troops choices as long as you're taking "X" HQ unit for those people who want to.
@kid kyoto
those are some neat ideas. I have been reading some old WD's - there's a last chancers battle report, it's awesome (the squad goes up against 1000pts of chaos spae marines and wins)
Look, I appreciate you having fun playing shark with your gretchins in your local fishpond, but your experience doesn't really match what happens when people meet opponents who actually build a coherent force and play to win.
Despite the constant tourney talk most peoples 40k experience is centered upon their local scene. Or fishpond as you so insultingly term it.
So you don't think my opponents are building coherent forces? That they aren't playing to win?
The kid with his Net List Crusher stampede? The guy playing the same Custode list as nearly everyone else on the planet? My (Imperial) Knights foes with some combo of 2-3 large+ knights & fill in with smaller ones? (Knights are very popular in my area atm). All those people playing combo xyz in their army because they've taken on-line advice?
Pray tell, how should my last opponent have set up his list? He had 3 Armigers (autocannons & meltas) & 3 Questoris (all with AT rocket pods, 1x thermal gun/gattling, 1x sword & fist, 1x rapid battlecannon & Endless Fury cannon). Bear in mind he had no idea he'd be facing mechanized Gretchin. And I assure you he was playing to win.
Jidmah wrote: Orks already struggle to fight off "one of everything" crusade forces unless you bring at least a somewhat competitive build, playing without a Waaagh! isn't an option.
Eh, I can see that as a possibility for proper Orks. A players over reliance on BS5 + little/no AP + almost non-existent saves + poor morale? That is not a recipe for success.... So I imagine calling a Waaagh! would help a bit.
Guard are pretty well covered. I just wish GW brought back some of the legend units in plastic, as well as moved the FW units in plastic. Such as:
Update:
- Update Valkyrie kit to assemble one of the following: Valkyrie, Vendetta, or Vulture.
- Update Basilisk kit to assemble one of the following: Basilisk, Griffon, or Medusa. Could reintroduce the old Chimera based Colossus.
New:
- Put all the Macharius variants into a single kit like the Baneblade.
- Put all the Malcador variants, including Valdor and Minotaur, into a single kit like the Baneblade.
- Centaur kit in plastic, add light tank option.
Tons of FW units could be foldered into existing or new multi-part plastic kits. Though if we’re talking about a single gap the Guard range is missing, light vehicles. Something between Sentinel and Chimera. Actual armoured cars would be awesome.
Custodes: A meaningful place in the game. We are currently just over costed Marines. We shoot like crap, our attacks are worthless against anything with multi-wound or -1 to damage, and our ability to hold objectives is doo doo. The majority of our plastic models are not worth their points, and we rely entirely on over priced FW models.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Custodes: A meaningful place in the game. We are currently just over costed Marines. We shoot like crap, our attacks are worthless against anything with multi-wound or -1 to damage, and our ability to hold objectives is doo doo. The majority of our plastic models are not worth their points, and we rely entirely on over priced FW models.
Considering their place in the setting is redundant it makes sense their place in the game is too.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Custodes: A meaningful place in the game. We are currently just over costed Marines. We shoot like crap, our attacks are worthless against anything with multi-wound or -1 to damage, and our ability to hold objectives is doo doo. The majority of our plastic models are not worth their points, and we rely entirely on over priced FW models.
Considering their place in the setting is redundant it makes sense their place in the game is too.
You aren't wrong, and I fully admit they need to be removed to be a fluff only faction, but at the rate GW is throwing crap at the walls, no way they are giving up a faction.
If contemporary Space Marines weren't organized in Chapters, I'd agree that Custodes' place in the setting was redundant...
But Marines ARE organized in Chapters, so I don't agree.
Custodes' role is twofold: First and foremost, defend Terra. I don't think there are any Chapters pledged to do the same, and even if there were, they'd be a mere 1000 fighters.
The second role- accompanying Torchbearer and Indomitus fleets- is more recent, and theoretically, not a permanent role. I can't think of a Marine Chapter that exclusively does this either.
They are entirely redundant in that they are elite infantry based, with heavy mech support in dreadnaughts, that shine in upclose combat scenarios, and are extremely CP dependent.
The only difference between us and SM now is our inate 4++, which is a pointless reason to make us an independant faction. Everything and it's mother can dish out mortals or ignore invulns anyway, so who cares?
PenitentJake wrote: Custodes' role is twofold: First and foremost, defend Terra. I don't think there are any Chapters pledged to do the same, and even if there were, they'd be a mere 1000 fighters.
Somewhere I can hear the gnashing of Imperial Fists' players' teeth.
Just_Breathe wrote: Grey Knights need storm bolters that aren't a complete joke.
Grey Knights get Storm Bolters, when other Marines get Boltguns. A Wolf Guard with a similar loadout (Power Sword and Storm Bolter) is 28 points a model compared to 22, and the Power Sword they have isn't master-crafted. Strike Squad is also a Troop, and has a psychic power and can deep strike. Seems balanced.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: If I was rebooting I'd do an Inquisition faction where GKs, DW, Custodes, etc were all elite choices. And Custodes would be like, 1 custodes.
But I'm not in charge so ah well.
I mean honestly once you have primarchs (both spikey and smooth) and baby titans taking the field who's to say Custodes don't make sense.
Just figure every tabletop game is the Ultimate Battle For the Fate of the Universe if it takes the sting off.
See, this is essentially what I mean. Lump all the red headed kids into a "this codex will never get published, why are we even writing this?" book that will only be sold through a 5 issue run of White Dwarf. Each page 30-35 will be 5 pages, and at the end you will have all 25 pages, with such hits as:
Every named inquisitor, and the generic ones too
The Grey Knight Serfs
The Custodes
DeathStrike Missile Launchers
Servitors
Regular old Boxy Coffin Dreads
The Elysium Drop Troops
and Everyone's favorite useless models,
EVERY. LANDRAIDER. EVER.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Custodes: A meaningful place in the game. We are currently just over costed Marines. We shoot like crap, our attacks are worthless against anything with multi-wound or -1 to damage, and our ability to hold objectives is doo doo. The majority of our plastic models are not worth their points, and we rely entirely on over priced FW models.
Considering their place in the setting is redundant it makes sense their place in the game is too.
You aren't wrong, and I fully admit they need to be removed to be a fluff only faction, but at the rate GW is throwing crap at the walls, no way they are giving up a faction.
Back in 7th edition, one of the last codexes released for the edition was superb and the idea could be used again to make Custodes better and bring them into the game in their own way. That codex was Imperial Agents.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: If I was rebooting I'd do an Inquisition faction where GKs, DW, Custodes, etc were all elite choices. And Custodes would be like, 1 custodes.
But I'm not in charge so ah well.
I mean honestly once you have primarchs (both spikey and smooth) and baby titans taking the field who's to say Custodes don't make sense.
Just figure every tabletop game is the Ultimate Battle For the Fate of the Universe if it takes the sting off.
I wouldn't mind this at all.
More than one Imperial Agent in my army?
I would like Marine vehicles to be viable again. Right now it seems like we are still paying for the sins of Iron Hands mechanised armies at the end of 8th edition.
Karhedron wrote: I would like Marine vehicles to be viable again. Right now it seems like we are still paying for the sins of Iron Hands mechanised armies at the end of 8th edition.
I main Mono-Khorne, it is a nightmare to not have both Shooting and Psychic phases, while not having the durability to get to Fight phases consistently.
I would love more anti-psyker resistance, and much better saves agains BS, or even army wide invulnerable saves — maybe we the Demons are immaterial and harder to shoot from afar, to force short distance conflict.
Or make our units BRUTAL in melee: Skarbrand and Bloodthirsters should be way more harder to kill and absolute blender in melee. Also gives us Slaughterbrutes and Khorgoraths as well.
If Skull Cannons are going to be our only shooting focused unit, make it devastating, either with decent shooting, or a mixed shooting/mobile/melee platform.
For BA - reboxing the BA command squad box with a sprue of jump packs so we can have jump packs for our company vets, company champion, apothecary and company ancient again.
Unaligned: an HQ of some kind (personally I'd request a Drone, along with removing the 0-1 on Spindle Drones), so we can finally run small unaligned forces!
1st and most importantly: A design team that both understands orkz and wants them to be a successful faction as opposed to the NPC race that they occasionally give a good build to by accident, which the tournament players then immediately screams "NERF".
2nd: If you can't have #1 (because lord knows we haven't for decades) then orkz are missing a useful Mob Rule. Current iteration of Mob Rule is pathetic, and in hundreds of games of 9th I have successfully used it 1 time and it saved a grand total of 9pts.
3rd: Useful shooting. To fix that I would bring back Dakka Dakka Dakka into the ork game. except this time its "Orkz always hit on 5s" Losing 50% of your armies shooting vs some opponents is just flat out ridiculous. Making it so Orkz always hit on 5s means other armies -1 to hit isn't as catastrophic for us but it can also serve a purpose vs our more shooty builds, +1 to hit for Freebootas as an example, and our better guns like Mek gunz would still be hit with -1 bringing them to 5+.
4th: Squigz/Snakebites competent rules.
a. Make Transfungus (Transhuman) work across the board for Snakebites. Its current rule of only wound on 4s against S7 and below is stupid since orkz are T5 which means it only works on S6 and S7 weapons and the rare +1 to wound mechanic.
b. give snakebites a natural 6+ FNP as well and allow for stacking mechanic with painboy/boss.
c. give units with squigs in them the fething squig key word.
d. reduce the price of beastboss on squig and killrig by 10-20%
5th: Useful vehicle saves: Improve all Ork vehicle saves by 1 and bring back the KFF to be a 5+ save ALWAYS with the strat making it a 4+ for 1 turn.
That's interesting. I think orks shooting is ok, it's close combat that is actually a joke. And for an army that is supposed to be badass in melee that's something really hard to accept.
That's interesting. I think orks shooting is ok, it's close combat that is actually a joke. And for an army that is supposed to be badass in melee that's something really hard to accept.
Shoota boyz are functionally useless
Burna Boyz are functionally useless
Tankbusta boyz are used for their squigz and hammers not their shooting
Flashgitz aren't taken because their shooting isn't worth what GW prices them at.
And pretty much everything else runs headlong into the problem of a single -1 to hit reduces dmg output by 50%!
Automatically Appended Next Post: With that said, Ork CC isn't in a good place. It wasn't in a terrible place compared to shooting but it wasn't great. And AoC neutered that even more so.
Kanluwen wrote: Designers who understand the army's mechanics.
So I decided to really sit down and make a post expounding upon this.
I'm going to use AdMech as my example, so bear with me.
Looking at the Warlord Traits for Tech-Priests, all of the ones which affect other units? They affect <Forge World> Cult Mechanicus Core units only.
You know what has Core from the Cult Mechanicus side of things?
Electro-Priests. Not the Servitors that are supposed to form the core of the Cult side of things...just the Electro-Priests.
In a book that's already divided into 2 subfactions, one would think that the designers would have actually gone through and spent some time sussing out how the army should work...especially since it's not like they kept Knights in the book like there was before.
Anyways, my army is missing some genuine care and concern fixated within it. They could have easily done, to address the bullgak that would come up from their changes of special weapon costs, some additional units of Skitarii specialized towards certain things--or even added in a Primus as an Elite/back-up Skitarii HQ choice toting some special weapons/wargear.
That's interesting. I think orks shooting is ok, it's close combat that is actually a joke. And for an army that is supposed to be badass in melee that's something really hard to accept.
Shoota boyz are functionally useless
Burna Boyz are functionally useless
Tankbusta boyz are used for their squigz and hammers not their shooting
Flashgitz aren't taken because their shooting isn't worth what GW prices them at.
And pretty much everything else runs headlong into the problem of a single -1 to hit reduces dmg output by 50%!
Automatically Appended Next Post: With that said, Ork CC isn't in a good place. It wasn't in a terrible place compared to shooting but it wasn't great. And AoC neutered that even more so.
All true, but bikes, koptas, flyers, buggies, mek gunz... all have decent shooting. Bomb squigs are also a shooting tool and a quite effective one. I can't possibly think of a really good close combat ork unit, barring some characters. Meganobz, our supposed heavy hitters and my favorite ork models, don't really hit that hard. A lot of other stuff is either a wet noodle or too slow to achieve something reliably. The close combat oriented ork lists are all about board control and tarpitting, which is a style of playing I can't stand. That's why I play shooting oriented ork lists.
I have IA13 but no army...abeit some headway has been made with the latest Kill Team release and BSF.
Additional points:
IA13 is no longer valid as I understand; and
I haven't the time for kitbashing.
Renegades and Heretics is Legends now. Compared to what they had before it's nothing, but, personally, I'm gonna be building a R&H force. Just a small 500ish points force.
I guess the dune buggy thing counts but I want something more haphazzard and with more gun options.
Looks like someone from AQX (Al-Quida in x=Place) is training militia fighters. That is the exact same method they have been using to kick our ass, the Russians asses, and the Iraqi Army's asses for the past 50 years. Weld a rocket pod onto a pickup, put a slant lever on it, drive it to the middle of field, fire, have spotter report, fire again, log results. When it's sighted, drive to within 1-2 miles of target, fire for effect, then drive away like hell, to avoid counter battery fire from IDF. Tried, true, and extremely effective method of harassment attacks for little to no actual cost. Comparably, a Rus Mobile Arty platform like the 2S19 Msta costs between 2-3 million each, and about 50k per shot, in USD.
A Crappy old pickup with a welded rocket tube is about 80k total. If that.
Well, my Iron Hands are missing a Primaris HQ that has a standard Power Axe. I currently can't use the Iron Hands relic weapon without taking a firstborn HQ.
Imperial Guard - A fun unit! Just give me a unit of commandos who can take anything, power swords, flamers, heavy weapons, whatever, something like the new DKK plastic unit or the old Catachan Devils. Give them infiltrate, cameo and let them loose to do their jobs. An A-Team, Last Chancers, GI Joe, Howling Commandos, Easy Company type unit so I can give them all cool nick names like Icepick and rules that at least give them a vague chance of doing something other than dying. Vet and command squads are too regimented and meant for long range shooting, I'm looking more for action movie heroes.
