Feels like there’s plenty of change on the way and that each of the traitor legions might get an equal treatment as opposed to feeling like an after thought following the black legion.

Also the added cultist units and rules look really fun

Aaaaand there was a little teaser about Fabius bile in one of the Warhammer community articles the other day so I’m really hoping for expanded rules for creations of bile.

Kind of - although I play World Eaters, so I don't really know yet whether I want it or need it...

It's very hard to get excited about anything GW does with Chaos Space Marines.

I'm excited in the sense that if its the new OP faction we get a fresh wave of people complaining about power creep while the people who've moaned about Chaos being crap for so long get to try and defend it, while if it ends up crap I get to see people who complain about Chaos being crap continue to complain while GW defenders try to justify it as being okay because at least its not OP. Lots of good salt mining to be had either way.

 Sim-Life wrote:
I'm excited in the sense that if its the new OP faction we get a fresh wave of people complaining about power creep while the people who've moaned about Chaos being crap for so long get to try and defend it, while if it ends up crap I get to see people who complain about Chaos being crap continue to complain while GW defenders try to justify it as being okay because at least its not OP. Lots of good salt mining to be had either way.

Hey man, just wait and see.

No.

My excitement peaked and passed back during the preview show.

This looks like an absolute clusterfrag of competing keywords and rules that don't work together.

Cultists get legion keywords but don't get legion rules but can get buffs from warlord traits or strats (that you take or use instead of traits that buff marines) and cultist buffs may or may not apply to traitor guard, which are a different unit because reasons.

Several models (venomcrawler, oblits) are still missing standalone kits, and who knows whats happening with the HH stuff.

Plus the cultists, mutants and torments... from a game perspective they just look bad. Its a neat idea, and there are some great models there, but T4 3W and 6+ save for the big guys is just straight up inadequate for 9th edition.


---
Really, I just want it done, so GW will move on to getting the last couple factions done and decide if they're doing 10th or another pile of garbage splatbooks.

Not at all.

I've been very excited previously but it's waning for me now. Too many ifs, buts and maybes over the new kits and to top it off it sounds like there's a lot of confused unit identities.

Considering all the shown and leaked rules. The only way for chaos new book to be worse then the one that already exists, is for all old units to go up 2-5 pts per models and all the new ones having crazy costs like 16pts for the mutated and 28-30pts for the big mutated cultists.

Feeling way more apprehensive about the CSM codex than excited. As more and more of the leaked playtest rules appear to be making it into the final codex unchanged, it's looking to be a mess. And it's becoming more and more likely that the leaked omission of jump packs for characters will be true as well. Not cool.

Night Lords have always been my CSM army, so hard pass on this Codex.

Kind of excited, will welcome the end to all the suspense.

My Black Legion army would like to get some use this edition. I've been playing Deathwatch and don't always like playing the bad guys.

Will be more excited once I know what's going on with Daemons.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's very hard to get excited about anything GW does

Ftfy

Someday I'll figure out how they consistently manage to make it worse than 'loyalists, but with spikes.'

That bar strikes me as about curb level (ankle high), and yet somehow they can't manage to clear it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I'm excited in the sense that if its the new OP faction we get a fresh wave of people complaining about power creep while the people who've moaned about Chaos being crap for so long get to try and defend it, while if it ends up crap I get to see people who complain about Chaos being crap continue to complain while GW defenders try to justify it as being okay because at least its not OP. Lots of good salt mining to be had either way.

Hey man, just wait and see.

I saw Abaddon's leaked dataslate. A reroll 1s to hit aura! How novel! The gentlemen at the club shall certainly be agog at the ingenuity of the Gamers Workeshoppe and their constantly refreshing take on games of war played on the table top.

I'll pick it up, but I'm honestly more focused on the upcoming Heresy 2.0 right now

 Sim-Life wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
I'm excited in the sense that if its the new OP faction we get a fresh wave of people complaining about power creep while the people who've moaned about Chaos being crap for so long get to try and defend it, while if it ends up crap I get to see people who complain about Chaos being crap continue to complain while GW defenders try to justify it as being okay because at least its not OP. Lots of good salt mining to be had either way.

Hey man, just wait and see.

I saw Abaddon's leaked dataslate. A reroll 1s to hit aura! How novel! The gentlemen at the club shall certainly be agog at the ingenuity of the Gamers Workeshoppe and their constantly refreshing take on games of war played on the table top.

Oh dear. I foresee a great many lost monocles when you deliver that piece of news to them.

Now we've seen the incoming train wreck.

It's hard to look away...

BrianDavion wrote:
I'll pick it up, but I'm honestly more focused on the upcoming Heresy 2.0 right now

Me too. But I was/am planning on doing a dual 30/40k army, but hadn't settled on a legion. But its certainly fething not going to be a traitor legion.
I had some doubt before, but this is just a steaming pile of grox dung. Chaos is done. Buried.

I'm sure that somebody is going to dig up some weird cherry picking that spoilers meta match ups in some event or other (for all of about a week or two before the next shake and bake list), but this is just baffling, inconsistent gak.

The only thing that excites me is the thought of my own death.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The only thing that excites me is the thought of my own death.

Sorry, the sprue only has one death and someone else in your unit already used it.

I was excited about exploding 6s 'doctrines'. After seeing some of the datasheets, I'm only excited to paint the new prince and Possessed. Debating if I'll even pick up the book.

 l0k1 wrote:
I was excited about exploding 6s 'doctrines'. After seeing some of the datasheets, I'm only excited to paint the new prince and Possessed. Debating if I'll even pick up the book.

Given how similar the CSM and CD Daemon Princes are, it makes me wonder if the Chaos Daemon range is going to get the same Daemonic special rule. Could you imagine Tzeentch Daemons with a 3++ invulnerable?

 l0k1 wrote:
I was excited about exploding 6s 'doctrines'. After seeing some of the datasheets, I'm only excited to paint the new prince and Possessed. Debating if I'll even pick up the book.

The new Prince isn't in the book.

CadianSgtBob wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The only thing that excites me is the thought of my own death.

Sorry, the sprue only has one death and someone else in your unit already used it.

Best comment

Pretty iffy feeling towards their release, Abbadon is the only thing that stood out for me as something that stood out rules wise and not in a great way since he's basically a wacky stack of all the rules trends of 9th ed so far.

GW has a pretty bad track record with CSM so far, they've always had an issue with figuring out their identity compared to loyalists and its reflected from how bad CSM have been as a troops choice across several editions now. I highly doubt they'll be relevant with their newest iteration and I bet anything that CSM have, the new SM book that's inevitably coming will have better versions of in spades.

I have seen the Scans. I play CSM since Codex 3.5. But now I am considering to put all my CSM on Ebay. I love the faction with all my heart but I can't stand the bullying and pure incompetence regarding CSM anymore.

 Lord_Valorion wrote:
I have seen the Scans. I play CSM since Codex 3.5. But now I am considering to put all my CSM on Ebay. I love the faction with all my heart but I can't stand the bullying and pure incompetence regarding CSM anymore.

Well this trainwreck is somehow worse than the 4th edition csm update.

Well after having my infantry squads also invalidated by restrictive options , thats it for me aswell.

No customization for hq.
No updated dp
No Traitorguardsmen
No customization for Elite charachters either.
Infantry squads options are moronical.
Chosen datasheet is rubbish option wise.
Terminators are rubbish option wise.

Let csm squads have two special or heavy weapons. Can't have two of the same. Meanwhile prior books for other factions could do stuff like that or even better. Good Job GW, people will love it. New players won't get "confused" by non box included options.

I haven't seen any of the leaks so entiely going on optimism and the desire to blow the dust off my eons old chaos army, but I will likely be picking up the codex at some point.

I will doubtless need to buy some more models (I kinda stopped playng chaos when the dreadnaughts grew diapers), because in my experience you can't get anywhere without the new stuff (I regularly play orks vs orks, and my old boys just fail against the new beast snagga boys). But, nevertheless, kinda excited to see what I can convert for them!

 some bloke wrote:
I haven't seen any of the leaks so entiely going on optimism and the desire to blow the dust off my eons old chaos army, but I will likely be picking up the codex at some point.

I would strongly suggest reading those leaks before buying the codex. Unless you think that buying it and then demanding a refund for the defective product would send a stronger message to GW? It's a truly awful book and the rules are an insult to GW's loyal customers.

Voss wrote:
Someday I'll figure out how they consistently manage to make it worse than 'loyalists, but with spikes.'

That bar strikes me as about curb level (ankle high), and yet somehow they can't manage to clear it.

Because that's not a bug, it's a feature. They're not trying to clear that tiny hurdle. CSM were made better than loyalists once, and they'll never let it happen again. It's part of the factions design ethos: Never better than loyalists, always worse. That's the target that they always aim for.

 some bloke wrote:
I haven't seen any of the leaks so entiely going on optimism and the desire to blow the dust off my eons old chaos army, but I will likely be picking up the codex at some point.

I will doubtless need to buy some more models (I kinda stopped playng chaos when the dreadnaughts grew diapers), because in my experience you can't get anywhere without the new stuff (I regularly play orks vs orks, and my old boys just fail against the new beast snagga boys). But, nevertheless, kinda excited to see what I can convert for them!

we have actual scans, not just "rumors". It's completely stupidity.

is all the outrage only because of the jank loadout restrictions?

It's interesting to me that the reactions to the leaked codex pages here are the complete opposite of what they are on the 40k reddit.

 CommunistNapkin wrote:
It's interesting to me that the reactions to the leaked codex pages here are the complete opposite of what they are on the 40k reddit.

I'd warrent that its because Reddit is mostly newer players, whereas Dakkanauts are jaded curmudgeons. Also Reddit's upvote system tends to foster positivity inclined hugboxes, rather than any actual discussion

Nothing reflects the disappointment of this turd better than the last post in our tactics thread still being from last month.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
is all the outrage only because of the jank loadout restrictions?

Only? No. Its a big part of it, of course (especially the legionary restriction that flat-out invalidates existing squads)

But its also several 'not appearing in this book' things (traitor guard, jetpacks), and how wretchedly bad some of the new stuff is.

Some of it revolves around how utterly incoherent things are- like IW getting a special objective about wasting shooting into empty space when there is a foe to fight. (It would be a little less dumb if you could put objectives in terrain and remove defensive terrain features the opponent occupies, but 9th just doesn't allow that level of sanity)

I'm sure there are bunch of 'Word Bearers' players talking about stacking buffs on possessed somewhere, because that raw statline lends itself to doing something, and BL players are probably happy to have a legion trait that gives a bonus, but as a general book it just looks really bad.

Voss wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
is all the outrage only because of the jank loadout restrictions?

Only? No. Its a big part of it, of course (especially the legionary restriction that flat-out invalidates existing squads)

But its also several 'not appearing in this book' things (traitor guard, jetpacks), and how wretchedly bad some of the new stuff is.

Some of it revolves around how utterly incoherent things are- like IW getting a special objective about wasting shooting into empty space when there is a foe to fight. (It would be a little less dumb if you could put objectives in terrain and remove defensive terrain features the opponent occupies, but 9th just doesn't allow that level of sanity)

I'm sure there are bunch of 'Word Bearers' players talking about stacking buffs on possessed somewhere, because that raw statline lends itself to doing something, and BL players are probably happy to have a legion trait that gives a bonus, but as a general book it just looks really bad.

So they are getting rid of raptors?

mrFickle wrote:

Voss wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
is all the outrage only because of the jank loadout restrictions?

Only? No. Its a big part of it, of course (especially the legionary restriction that flat-out invalidates existing squads)

But its also several 'not appearing in this book' things (traitor guard, jetpacks), and how wretchedly bad some of the new stuff is.

Some of it revolves around how utterly incoherent things are- like IW getting a special objective about wasting shooting into empty space when there is a foe to fight. (It would be a little less dumb if you could put objectives in terrain and remove defensive terrain features the opponent occupies, but 9th just doesn't allow that level of sanity)

I'm sure there are bunch of 'Word Bearers' players talking about stacking buffs on possessed somewhere, because that raw statline lends itself to doing something, and BL players are probably happy to have a legion trait that gives a bonus, but as a general book it just looks really bad.

So they are getting rid of raptors?

No, they stay but the champ can't take lightning claws for... reasons. No hq can get a jump pack any more was what Voss was referring to.

There's the weird loadouts as mentioned. There's the fact we know a new bigger Prince is on the way which we know will have a different profile to the one in this codex in less than 6 months. There's the weird cultists box with only melee weapons. There's the weird mutants that look like a sigmar dual system kit but basically fill the exact sane role as either spawn and/or cultists. The legionary restriction: cannot take duplicate specials or heavies. No other unit in the book (I.e. bikes) has the same restriction.

It's a bit of a mess conceptually.

Sadly, I don't have any enthusiasm for the new CSM codex.

It could be great if the diveristy of builds from 3.5 ed was offered but frankly it simply wouldn't work in the current rules bloat.

I will cross my fingers and hope the new WE codex replicates the Khorne: Daemonkin book but not holding my breath.

GW either don't get CSM or they purposely make them Saturday morning cartoon villains. GW are probably still butt hurt from the old Lost and Damned campaign days when Chaos actually won yet they expected an overwheming loyalist victory - got to sell meh Emperor loving spes mahrines.

Voss wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
is all the outrage only because of the jank loadout restrictions?

Only? No. Its a big part of it, of course (especially the legionary restriction that flat-out invalidates existing squads)

But its also several 'not appearing in this book' things (traitor guard, jetpacks), and how wretchedly bad some of the new stuff is.

Anyone seriously expecting Traitor Guard was always going to be disappointed & set themselves up for it.... Afterall, it is Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Besides, anything "missing"? Is just fodder to be included later in one of the 6 months-to-end-of-edition PA style filler volumes you all know are coming.

 Sim-Life wrote:


I'd warrent that its because Reddit is mostly newer players, whereas Dakkanauts are jaded curmudgeons. Also Reddit's upvote system tends to foster positivity inclined hugboxes, rather than any actual discussion

A person which is about to buy some new models and build a new army is going to be more happy about an upcomming codex or set of rules, then someone who is now looking at 2000pts of models and ponders what is he going suppose to do with those extra same special weapons, lack of unit caster models, oblits at 90pts etc.

Has nothing to do with being jaded. The rule set is better then what csm had till now. The question is, and it maybe a rhetorical one, if the rule set is on pair or better then what top armies are rocking right now. Because just getting a spiky marine codex, which gets dunked on the same other marine books do, and being made to rebuy an army, is not something more then a few people may not be very happy about.

ccs wrote:

Voss wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
is all the outrage only because of the jank loadout restrictions?

Only? No. Its a big part of it, of course (especially the legionary restriction that flat-out invalidates existing squads)

But its also several 'not appearing in this book' things (traitor guard, jetpacks), and how wretchedly bad some of the new stuff is.

Anyone seriously expecting Traitor Guard was always going to be disappointed & set themselves up for it.... Afterall, it is Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Besides, anything "missing"? Is just fodder to be included later in one of the 6 months-to-end-of-edition PA style filler volumes you all know are coming.

agreed. it's not like chaos guardsmen where a thing in the last book eaither.

personally I'd rather chaos guard get a dedicated codex rather then be tossed into a CSM codex as a crap option

ccs wrote:

Voss wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
is all the outrage only because of the jank loadout restrictions?

Only? No. Its a big part of it, of course (especially the legionary restriction that flat-out invalidates existing squads)

But its also several 'not appearing in this book' things (traitor guard, jetpacks), and how wretchedly bad some of the new stuff is.

Anyone seriously expecting Traitor Guard was always going to be disappointed & set themselves up for it.... Afterall, it is Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Because certainly the KT eldar corsairs and the KT sprue for additional legionary options didn't appear in the relevant codexes, one of which was this one. Oh. No. Wait, they did.
I'm doubting your oracular ability, here. 'always going to be disappointed' doesn't make any sense when they actually did it for 2 out of 3 kits. (sisters and tau were too late for their books, but got datasheets) and Codex Marines Again hasn't happened yet.

Voss wrote:

ccs wrote:

Voss wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
is all the outrage only because of the jank loadout restrictions?

Only? No. Its a big part of it, of course (especially the legionary restriction that flat-out invalidates existing squads)

But its also several 'not appearing in this book' things (traitor guard, jetpacks), and how wretchedly bad some of the new stuff is.

Anyone seriously expecting Traitor Guard was always going to be disappointed & set themselves up for it.... Afterall, it is Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

Because certainly the KT eldar corsairs and the KT sprue for additional legionary options didn't appear in the relevant codexes, one of which was this one. Oh. No. Wait, they did.
I'm doubting your oracular ability, here. 'always going to be disappointed' doesn't make any sense when they actually did it for 2 out of 3 kits. (sisters and tau were too late for their books, but got datasheets) and Codex Marines Again hasn't happened yet.

Traitor Guard isnt CSM tho......

thats like saying "oh man, why wasnt Guard included with my SM codex!"

Cultists aren't Chaos Marines either.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Cultists aren't Chaos Marines either.

yeah but the trend with cultists has been to be with the CSM in recent years....

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Cultists aren't Chaos Marines either.

yeah but the trend with cultists has been to be with the CSM in recent years....

And Corsairs trended to be with Craftworld Eldar?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Cultists aren't Chaos Marines either.

yeah but the trend with cultists has been to be with the CSM in recent years....

Do you actually have a point, or no?

Traitor Guard should have been in the book for the same reasons Corsairs are in the Eldar book.

The fact that they aren't, despite having a new kit, just like the Corsairs, is utterly perplexing.

Dudeface wrote:
There's the fact we know a new bigger Prince is on the way...

Ah, I can see your confusion. The Prince is for the Chaos Daemons release, not CSM. I would be surprised if Chaos Daemons get any other model released along side with the codex.

JakeSiren wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
There's the fact we know a new bigger Prince is on the way...

Ah, I can see your confusion. The Prince is for the Chaos Daemons release, not CSM.

Well...
it might actually be come alongside the newest AoS STD, not daemons.
but the model build they decided to show off during the Warhammer Fest Preview show ('oh gods they leaked it, quick, splice in some footage!' edition) was very clearly an ascendant daemon marine, not just a fantasy or generic prince (though it can also be built that way)

I would be surprised if Chaos Daemons get any other model released along side with the codex.

I also suspect this. I hope it won't be that bad, since Daemons perennially need to be treated as an actual army, not a pile of subfactions with no cohesive approach, but... no real hope there.

JakeSiren wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
There's the fact we know a new bigger Prince is on the way...

Ah, I can see your confusion. The Prince is for the Chaos Daemons release, not CSM. I would be surprised if Chaos Daemons get any other model released along side with the codex.

I'm not confused at all, I understand its coming with the StD book as that's what they stated in the stream.

The points the 40k profile will change when this new model comes out as the current one doesn't have a gin option, the new one does. So the CSM codex will have datasheets replaces/supplanted almost immediately.

This isn't the same as errata or balance changes, this is out and out giving you a redundant profile to save face for 3-6 months.

To those arguing not to expect renegade guardsmen in the chaos book, I'm curious where you'd put the rules without inventing a new faction otherwise.

GW will probably release a Traitor Guard Codex along side an Imperial Guard Codex. They'll be almost identical. The differences will be that the Chaos Codex won't have the Commisars and other agents of the Imperium but will have a copy/paste note saying the core units can buy a mark of (Whichever God) for 15 points.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
GW will probably release a Traitor Guard Codex along side an Imperial Guard Codex. They'll be almost identical. The differences will be that the Chaos Codex won't have the Commisars and other agents of the Imperium but will have a copy/paste note saying the core units can buy a mark of (Whichever God) for 15 points.

I know you're joking but I feel like its more likely GW are keep Traitor Guard on the back burner so they can release a Renegade and Heretics style army with Traitor Guard rules similar to that of GSC.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Traitor Guard should have been in the book for the same reasons Corsairs are in the Eldar book.

The fact that they aren't, despite having a new kit, just like the Corsairs, is utterly perplexing.

if they gave Traitor Guard the same treatment as corsair, you all wouldve complained just as much. Traitor guard needs its own codex, not just two units that have zero synergy with the rest of the dex

Voss wrote:
but the model build they decided to show off during the Warhammer Fest Preview show ('oh gods they leaked it, quick, splice in some footage!' edition) was very clearly an ascendant daemon marine, not just a fantasy or generic prince (though it can also be built that way)

Must've been a Night Lords build.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Traitor Guard should have been in the book for the same reasons Corsairs are in the Eldar book.

The fact that they aren't, despite having a new kit, just like the Corsairs, is utterly perplexing.

if they gave Traitor Guard the same treatment as corsair, you all wouldve complained just as much. Traitor guard needs its own codex, not just two units that have zero synergy with the rest of the dex

So what's your point?

Karol wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:


I'd warrent that its because Reddit is mostly newer players, whereas Dakkanauts are jaded curmudgeons. Also Reddit's upvote system tends to foster positivity inclined hugboxes, rather than any actual discussion

A person which is about to buy some new models and build a new army is going to be more happy about an upcomming codex or set of rules, then someone who is now looking at 2000pts of models and ponders what is he going suppose to do with those extra same special weapons, lack of unit caster models, oblits at 90pts etc.

Has nothing to do with being jaded. The rule set is better then what csm had till now. The question is, and it maybe a rhetorical one, if the rule set is on pair or better then what top armies are rocking right now. Because just getting a spiky marine codex, which gets dunked on the same other marine books do, and being made to rebuy an army, is not something more then a few people may not be very happy about.

Except we have seen the pictures and it's not "better". It might be stronger in a tournament sense, but if you lose build options, iconic units and already know this is a stopgap because of EC and the Daemon Prince rules it's not "better". If they'd have released that 2 years ago maybe CSM players wouldn't be as salty, but after waiting two years for a 2nd wound and getting just copy pasted loyalist rules again (which people argued about in 8th already) and getting worse datasheets than before (honestly, GW knows people don't like that crap since the DG codex at the start of the edition, yet they managed to do even worse) it's legitimate to criticize that book.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Traitor Guard should have been in the book for the same reasons Corsairs are in the Eldar book.

The fact that they aren't, despite having a new kit, just like the Corsairs, is utterly perplexing.

if they gave Traitor Guard the same treatment as corsair, you all wouldve complained just as much. Traitor guard needs its own codex, not just two units that have zero synergy with the rest of the dex

No, this is where they were supposed to go. They didn't explicitly say the quiet part out loud during Warhammer Fest, but they were presented as the ranged unit mortals vs the close combat unit mortals (cultists, if that's confusing), who very obviously lacked any rifles and the presenters were vague on whether they had any (because they don't prep for obvious questions from the audience).

As for synergy, they have as much or as little synergy as the Codex writer provides. Strats and traits and such are garbage-level rules that they can just crank out dozens of in a couple hours.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:


I'd warrent that its because Reddit is mostly newer players, whereas Dakkanauts are jaded curmudgeons. Also Reddit's upvote system tends to foster positivity inclined hugboxes, rather than any actual discussion

A person which is about to buy some new models and build a new army is going to be more happy about an upcomming codex or set of rules, then someone who is now looking at 2000pts of models and ponders what is he going suppose to do with those extra same special weapons, lack of unit caster models, oblits at 90pts etc.

Has nothing to do with being jaded. The rule set is better then what csm had till now. The question is, and it maybe a rhetorical one, if the rule set is on pair or better then what top armies are rocking right now. Because just getting a spiky marine codex, which gets dunked on the same other marine books do, and being made to rebuy an army, is not something more then a few people may not be very happy about.

Except we have seen the pictures and it's not "better". It might be stronger in a tournament sense, but if you lose build options, iconic units and already know this is a stopgap because of EC and the Daemon Prince rules it's not "better". If they'd have released that 2 years ago maybe CSM players wouldn't be as salty, but after waiting two years for a 2nd wound and getting just copy pasted loyalist rules again (which people argued about in 8th already) and getting worse datasheets than before (honestly, GW knows people don't like that crap since the DG codex at the start of the edition, yet they managed to do even worse) it's legitimate to criticize that book.

Also there's nothing to suggest it's going to be tournament strong. Stronger in tournaments itself isn't a great hurdle to judge by.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
if they gave Traitor Guard the same treatment as corsair, you all wouldve complained just as much.

Utter hogwash. And what do you base this nonsensical notion on?

From the second the Traitor Guard were revealed in the Kill Team box the immediate assumption was that they were going to get the Corsair treatment. Again, the fact that they didn't is what's perplexing.

No one would have complained about Traitor Guard being included in the Codex.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
if they gave Traitor Guard the same treatment as corsair, you all wouldve complained just as much.

Utter hogwash. And what do you base this nonsensical notion on?

From the second the Traitor Guard were revealed in the Kill Team box the immediate assumption was that they were going to get the Corsair treatment. Again, the fact that they didn't is what's perplexing.

No one would have complained about Traitor Guard being included in the Codex.

a lot less people would stop complaining if we had known if there were a replacement for R&H planned aswell but then again GW can't be arsed to communicate propperly with its custommer base and rather PR hypes nonsense

True. Renegade Guard was my army. IA13 is a fantastic book from the Bligh (r.i.p. good sir) days. Got the limited edition and still enjoy reading it today.

Then GW just canned them as an entire faction.

Yes, there was a tease in BSF of new minis but radio silence for years.

Strange given in lore you have Bloodpact, Sons of Sek, et al.

I have to cross post this from the N&R thread, as it is too good a summary of the bull gak Chaos is about to suffer through:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Everything is inconsistent in this book. Why do Terminators get rules for their power fists, but Chosen don't? Why do Chaos Lords have options that require kitbashing/converting, but Exalted Champions get stuck with a single loadout? Why is it ok to kitbash/convert those Chaos Lord weapons, but not a jump pack? Why does a PA Chaos Lord have to pay for melee weapons, but Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour get them for "free"?

Nothing makes sense. There is absolutely no consistency, no plan, no design parameters. It's just arbitrary rules, over and over and over. This codex was designed by madmen.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I have to cross post this from the N&R thread, as it is too good a summary of the bull gak Chaos is about to suffer through:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Everything is inconsistent in this book. Why do Terminators get rules for their power fists, but Chosen don't? Why do Chaos Lords have options that require kitbashing/converting, but Exalted Champions get stuck with a single loadout? Why is it ok to kitbash/convert those Chaos Lord weapons, but not a jump pack? Why does a PA Chaos Lord have to pay for melee weapons, but Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour get them for "free"?

Nothing makes sense. There is absolutely no consistency, no plan, no design parameters. It's just arbitrary rules, over and over and over. This codex was designed by madmen.

It's almost as if there's a theme going on - Chaos!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I have to cross post this from the N&R thread, as it is too good a summary of the bull gak Chaos is about to suffer through:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Everything is inconsistent in this book. Why do Terminators get rules for their power fists, but Chosen don't? Why do Chaos Lords have options that require kitbashing/converting, but Exalted Champions get stuck with a single loadout? Why is it ok to kitbash/convert those Chaos Lord weapons, but not a jump pack? Why does a PA Chaos Lord have to pay for melee weapons, but Chaos Lords in Terminator Armour get them for "free"?

Nothing makes sense. There is absolutely no consistency, no plan, no design parameters. It's just arbitrary rules, over and over and over. This codex was designed by madmen.

Quite.

My Black Legion army has not seen a tabletop since before lockdowns. The new Codex might not withstand my local meta.

Need to see the full book, but it doesn't seem like much thought went into this. It's more than not respecting previous editions, the synergy is missing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
if they gave Traitor Guard the same treatment as corsair, you all wouldve complained just as much.

Utter hogwash. And what do you base this nonsensical notion on?

From the second the Traitor Guard were revealed in the Kill Team box the immediate assumption was that they were going to get the Corsair treatment. Again, the fact that they didn't is what's perplexing.

No one would have complained about Traitor Guard being included in the Codex.

except we've also gotten traitor guard in blackstone fortress.. and when THAT came out people where speculating we might see a Triator guard codex.

ccs wrote:
It's almost as if there's a theme going on - Chaos!

I do hope that wasn't an attempt to defend this book...

Poor/inconsistent writing =/= Chaos.

BrianDavion wrote:
except we've also gotten traitor guard in blackstone fortress.. and when THAT came out people where speculating we might see a Triator guard codex.

And? People speculated about a new Red Terror for months because of one rumour engine before it was revealed to be nothing even related to that model (and then the Red Terror got deleted from the Codex). People speculate about everything.

Traitor Guard being in the new Chaos Codex, given everything else that was added, seemed like a slam dunk. The fact that it's not is weird.

Excited? No, not really.

Amused? Currently, absolutely...

My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

He atleast they and orks got a codex, and haven't been relegated into another codex and then shafted again / squatted sorry canned.

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

He atleast they and orks got a codex, and haven't been relegated into another codex and then shafted again / squatted sorry canned.

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Nah they'll likely open them, read the first line, file under B.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

He atleast they and orks got a codex, and haven't been relegated into another codex and then shafted again / squatted sorry canned.

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Physical letters, ideally sent with signed-for delivery. Gotta make it as frustrating as possible.

Not Online!!! wrote:

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Play alternative games that don't feth you over like GW does

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

That's exactly what I keep thinking when I look at the leaked codex pages. I'm getting the same feeling that I got when I first saw the Ork dex: a bizarre mix of rules, very few of which make sense when compared to each other, with little "synergy" (gods, I hate that word) with each other. Same writers? Or just the same level of disdain and lack of care for both factions?

Sgt. Cortez 805579 11383022 wrote:

Except we have seen the pictures and it's not "better". It might be stronger in a tournament sense, but if you lose build options, iconic units and already know this is a stopgap because of EC and the Daemon Prince rules it's not "better". If they'd have released that 2 years ago maybe CSM players wouldn't be as salty, but after waiting two years for a 2nd wound and getting just copy pasted loyalist rules again (which people argued about in 8th already) and getting worse datasheets than before (honestly, GW knows people don't like that crap since the DG codex at the start of the edition, yet they managed to do even worse) it's legitimate to criticize that book.

IMO the new demon prince is very much better. Probably unimportant in the end. The codex doesn't seem to be better then unnerfed tyranids. It could be the best of the marine books though, and it is better then what people had before. No one is going to tell me that the prior IW or NL legion rules were better under the old book. And yeah GW does tend to do odd things to marines, specialy at the end of an edition.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

He atleast they and orks got a codex, and haven't been relegated into another codex and then shafted again / squatted sorry canned.

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Physical letters, ideally sent with signed-for delivery. Gotta make it as frustrating as possible.

That just seems like a way to annoy secretaries.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

He atleast they and orks got a codex, and haven't been relegated into another codex and then shafted again / squatted sorry canned.

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Physical letters, ideally sent with signed-for delivery. Gotta make it as frustrating as possible.

That just seems like a way to annoy secretaries.

And that's a problem why?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

He atleast they and orks got a codex, and haven't been relegated into another codex and then shafted again / squatted sorry canned.

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Physical letters, ideally sent with signed-for delivery. Gotta make it as frustrating as possible.

That just seems like a way to annoy secretaries.

And that's a problem why?

Because the secretaries probably aren't the ones making terrible design choices?

 vipoid wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

He atleast they and orks got a codex, and haven't been relegated into another codex and then shafted again / squatted sorry canned.

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Physical letters, ideally sent with signed-for delivery. Gotta make it as frustrating as possible.

That just seems like a way to annoy secretaries.

And that's a problem why?

Because the secretaries probably aren't the ones making terrible design choices?

Exactly. Its like yelling at the people behind the counter at McDonalds because they removed a McNugget from all the boxes. What do you expect Cathy the part-time worker to do about it?

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

As someone who plays Orks, Necrons and CSM as my only armies, 9th edition has been rough.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
My condolences to the spikey beakies for getting a codex just as well written as the ork codex

He atleast they and orks got a codex, and haven't been relegated into another codex and then shafted again / squatted sorry canned.

situation is fethed imo. but what can we do other than simply not buying , returning the faulty product or writting stern e-mails and letter.
actually letters would be better, far more difficult to ignore.

Physical letters, ideally sent with signed-for delivery. Gotta make it as frustrating as possible.

That just seems like a way to annoy secretaries.

And that's a problem why?

Because the secretaries probably aren't the ones making terrible design choices?

Exactly. Its like yelling at the people behind the counter at McDonalds because they removed a McNugget from all the boxes. What do you expect Cathy the part-time worker to do about it?

Well the secretaries aren't the ones reading the letters, so that's not an apt comparison.

Now if someone suggested calling and yelling, that'd be a bit different.

Possessed not being core just might be the tipping point for me not getting the codex, at least for now.

Karol wrote:
IMO the new demon prince is very much better.

Yet based on a model and options that are about to be completely replaced.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
That's exactly what I keep thinking when I look at the leaked codex pages. I'm getting the same feeling that I got when I first saw the Ork dex: a bizarre mix of rules, very few of which make sense when compared to each other, with little "synergy" (gods, I hate that word) with each other. Same writers? Or just the same level of disdain and lack of care for both factions?

I'm now fascinated to know what the timeline for this book was.

When was it written? How long ago? Did it have a disrupted development? Has it been sitting complete in their warehouse for months on end? Was the book done ages ago but printing could only be done now?

What is the explanation for all this crap?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
That's exactly what I keep thinking when I look at the leaked codex pages. I'm getting the same feeling that I got when I first saw the Ork dex: a bizarre mix of rules, very few of which make sense when compared to each other, with little "synergy" (gods, I hate that word) with each other. Same writers? Or just the same level of disdain and lack of care for both factions?

I'm now fascinated to know what the timeline for this book was.

When was it written? How long ago? Did it have a disrupted development? Has it been sitting complete in their warehouse for months on end? Was the book done ages ago but printing could only be done now?

What is the explanation for all this crap?

Same. Personally, I'm betting on "disrupted development". I think that they've been mucking about with it for a while. And they were still mucking about with it when they were told "It needs to go to the printers NOW". So, we get this mess of weird contradictory design paradigms. It's just a theory, though. I'd really like to know what really happened.

I just posted in N&R.

My guess:

Marketing misunderstood the "missing options" complaint as 'barrier to entry' instead of 'ripoff'.

They rewrote the three CSM codices to match options to kits.

DG came out and was hammered for Plague Marines and Blightlords. Marketing went "oh, snap!" And stopped release.

Someone in the Design Studio is determined to force Power Level. It's their baby, even if it destroys the company. They've realized that community resistance may disappear if they get units cookie cutter. They don't want to reverse course, marketing's told them CSM will not be a success. So CSM was shelved and intermittently updated, and they're now trying to hide it tanking under the HH release.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
When was it written? How long ago? Did it have a disrupted development? Has it been sitting complete in their warehouse for months on end? Was the book done ages ago but printing could only be done now?

What is the explanation for all this crap?

it would be too expensive to have all the units sitting in the warehouse waiting for the Codex
for the simple reason that the new prince is not in the book, it is more likely that the Codex was printed before the master model was done (if printing would be late, you could have still adjust it)

my guess is that the ERP system change is still screwing them over, combined with raw material and energy problems
they cannot get the boxes they need/want, they could not cast as many models as they would have liked and the the ERP change keeps on messing up the pre-release shipping and you cannot make a big release if half of the stuff sits in the wrong warehouse

PS: and I think the new prince was timed as a WE Codex release, which was planned to be now

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Possessed not being core just might be the tipping point for me not getting the codex, at least for now.

Not sure why they would be core for anyone but WB in the first place.

I think this codex is almost precisely what I expected. I'm not disappointed because GW telegraphed this level of commitment to CSM long ago and I've had time to get comfortable with that.

By selling off large portions of my CSM models.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Possessed not being core just might be the tipping point for me not getting the codex, at least for now.

Not sure why they would be core for anyone but WB in the first place.

I think this codex is almost precisely what I expected. I'm not disappointed because GW telegraphed this level of commitment to CSM long ago and I've had time to get comfortable with that.

By selling off large portions of my CSM models.

Because they're an iconic infantry unit for CSM? Word Bearers should get them as troops, but everyone else should have them as core. Death Guard have them as core.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Possessed not being core just might be the tipping point for me not getting the codex, at least for now.

Not sure why they would be core for anyone but WB in the first place.

I think this codex is almost precisely what I expected. I'm not disappointed because GW telegraphed this level of commitment to CSM long ago and I've had time to get comfortable with that.

By selling off large portions of my CSM models.

Because they're an iconic infantry unit for CSM? Word Bearers should get them as troops, but everyone else should have them as core. Death Guard have them as core.

Cruddace has said that <CORE> has no thematic or fluff meaning, it's purely a mechanical thing for balance.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Because they're an iconic infantry unit for CSM? Word Bearers should get them as troops, but everyone else should have them as core. Death Guard have them as core.

Yeah, they don't get marks either, but Greater Possessed will probably be able to get marks as characters, as has been pointed out, the keywords have little to do with the story. If they get core, they get marks, they potentially get trivially easy first turn charges, which seems to be something GW hands out sparingly.

 Sim-Life wrote:


Cruddace has said that <CORE> has no thematic or fluff meaning, it's purely a mechanical thing for balance.

Seems to be more about punishing players for playing the game wrong (according to the designers) than anything else. The way it was handled differently for Astartes and Necrons was telling.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Because they're an iconic infantry unit for CSM? Word Bearers should get them as troops, but everyone else should have them as core. Death Guard have them as core.

Yeah, they don't get marks either, but Greater Possessed will probably be able to get marks as characters, as has been pointed out, the keywords have little to do with the story. If they get core, they get marks, they potentially get trivially easy first turn charges, which seems to be something GW hands out sparingly.

Greater Possessed aren't a thing anymore

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Greater Possessed aren't a thing anymore

Wow, those models got squatted fast.

You must not have seen/followed the past couple months worth of leaks. The book looks like its going to be a hot mess.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Greater Possessed aren't a thing anymore

Wow, those models got squatted fast.

Are new possessed 40mm at least so they can be used that way?

 Eldarain wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Greater Possessed aren't a thing anymore

Wow, those models got squatted fast.

Are new possessed 40mm at least so they can be used that way?

Yeah, greater possessed are now simple possessed (tho basic possessed now have a similar stats to the greaters)