This seemed like a fun exercise. Call out someone else's or ever your own units here. I'll start with mine..

Drukhari

Ravager 3 dark lances - 95 pts?!
Lets see deep strike, inherent reroll 1s, access to full reroll hits, improved weapon profile, t9. This unit has lived in the 130-145s range for multiple editions. Does anyone really believe 95 pts is a proper valuation now?

5 scourges 4 dark lances, blast pistol - 120 pts.
This one is a little harder to call out but I'm saying 120 is also far too cheap considering the concentration of high quality weaponry, heavy weapon rule plus DSSJ (deep strike shoot jump) with reroll access.

Start with that.

Sisters:

Over:
Battle Sisters. 110pts for a multimelta and a miracle dice. Desolation Squads are 120.

Dominions. 130pts for one more melta shot than BSS get, Rapid fire 2 bolters, and scout. Desolation squads are 120.

Paragon Warsuits, 240pts despite being worse than cheaper dreadnoughts.

Retributors. 130pts. Devastator marines are 120.

Repentia: 150pts. Desolation Squads are 120.

Sacresants: 130pts. Melee of a wet noodle. 3+SV, no shooting.

Under:

Desolation Squads.

Undercosted: Eldar as a whole. Fireprisms & Knights seem to be among the worst.

Proteus kill teams. The base unit is 5 vets, and the only distinction between them and a veteran squad is that the vet squad can take a xenophase blade, and the proteus kill team cannot.

Vets? 100pts.
Proteus? 130pts.

They clearly just cut the full 10-man proteus kill team in half and called it a day, as if they remotely compensate.

Broadsides used to be 80ish I think, they're now 110 each. Even taking the cost of drones into account I think they may be a bit overpriced.

ERJAK wrote:

Under:

Desolation Squads.

I'd argue very loudly that desolation squads aren't a points problem.
They're a profile problem. A unit where every model has two multi-attack blast weapons is not something you can balance with points. (especially with rerolls and modifiers).

The solution to desolators will never be points. The best way to approach it is deleting the top gun (the castellan launcher or whatever its called) and giving the gun an alternate profile- it can either fire superfrag or superkrak. The end.
A unit full of slightly better missile launchers is good, but isn't constantly obliterating enemy units.

Voss wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Under:

Desolation Squads.

I'd argue very loudly that desolation squads aren't a points problem.
They're a profile problem. A unit where every model has two multi-attack blast weapons is not something you can balance with points. (especially with rerolls and modifiers).

The solution to desolators will never be points. The best way to approach it is deleting the top gun (the castellan launcher or whatever its called) and giving the gun an alternate profile- it can either fire superfrag or superkrak. The end.
A unit full of slightly better missile launchers is good, but isn't constantly obliterating enemy units.

This. Although I'd suggest removing blast from the Castellan and Vengor. Then drop Frag to D6 from D6+1 -- it's already S5. And then kill the stupid indirect and ignore everything about indirect rule.

 westiebestie wrote:
Undercosted: Eldar as a whole. Fireprisms & Knights seem to be among the worst.

Not really as a whole. We got the obvious offenders(especially Knights), but Aspects are pretty average. I mean, if the goal is to make Eldar unplayable, then yes, Eldar is undercosted as a whole.

For the Guard.

Overcosted: Tank Commanders.
240 points for a unit with BS 4+ and can only get orders from Leontus.
It gives 1 non-splashing order to most vehicles.

As 1 of only 2 tank order sources, it's so high that it makes me want to reconsider vehicles in Guard as a whole.

Undercosted: Manticores.
It now cost as much as a Earthshaker Carraige Battery and hits harder because of the changes to indirect and the sheer number of ways we can get around it.
3+ to hit might be the norm.
Tying it up in melee just means you hit on 4+, and hitting it with melta wounds it on a 5+.
AP-2 Flat 3 damage means you're wounding Terminators on a 2+, forcing them to their invuls if you get ignores cover/more ap (probably fairly simple to achieve), and it's save or die if they don't have storm shields.

It is likely the non-transport Baneblade are slightly overcoated.

The transports bring guns that are only slightly worse (and in some cases not at all), AND gain the ability to transport troops with high Firing Deck numbers, but are usually one Infantry Squad or more cheaper than their non-transport counterparts.

The sole exception is the Shadowsword, which seems priced to move.

Flayed Ones are overpriced in points now to match being overpriced in £££

Voss wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Under:

Desolation Squads.

I'd argue very loudly that desolation squads aren't a points problem.
They're a profile problem. A unit where every model has two multi-attack blast weapons is not something you can balance with points. (especially with rerolls and modifiers).

The solution to desolators will never be points. The best way to approach it is deleting the top gun (the castellan launcher or whatever its called) and giving the gun an alternate profile- it can either fire superfrag or superkrak. The end.
A unit full of slightly better missile launchers is good, but isn't constantly obliterating enemy units.

While I agree that's the most elegant solution (Also, don't give them ignore cover), you could also make them 300pts for 5. That, too solves the problem. It creates the problem of them being largely useless, but it's not like marine players don't have other options.

Cynista wrote:
Flayed Ones are overpriced in points now to match being overpriced in £££

Flayed Ones are one of the more interesting units with a lot going on, despite having no options, and arguably the kind of unit that works best with this points system.

They aren't necessarily good at their current price point (which is the same as immortals), but used correctly they do a shocking amount of damage- against a below half strength unit, every hit creates an extra hit, and they all have 4 attacks base.
Infiltrate and stealth help. Reroll wounds and a point of AP makes a difference as well.

But this point system works for them- they're a package deal so they can have their points adjusted by 5, 10 or 15 points for 5 without any issue.
After XXX reported games, adjusting the points to better match their worth should be straightforward.

Praetorians, on the other hand, seem mind-bogglingly over priced. They aren't even in the same ballpark as the rest of the army.

Mutalith Vortex Beast

Dear god

 Eldarsif wrote:

 westiebestie wrote:
Undercosted: Eldar as a whole. Fireprisms & Knights seem to be among the worst.

Not really as a whole. We got the obvious offenders(especially Knights), but Aspects are pretty average. I mean, if the goal is to make Eldar unplayable, then yes, Eldar is undercosted as a whole.

Warp spiders are avarge for their point costs? In general the problem with eldar aspect stuff is not that they are over costed, for armies it would be considered properly costed. Only with by how aggresivly other eldar stuff is costed the eldar player can pay a tax to run two units of scorpions, even if they don't do much or there are more efficient options. The eldar army will not cave from it, because they are already playing with 200-300pts extra comparing to the regular aka good, armies from other factions. Vs bad stuff an eldar player can play with 1500pts and beat 2000pts of DG or ad mecha. And some stuff is impossible to attach a point cost to. What should be the point cost of being able to just generate MW or auto passing saves ? Especialy when it is layered on top of great speed, resiliance, high damage, ignoring of terrain and with a primary/secondary mission system that favours fast moving armie, that can clear objectives, with ability to ignore LoS in some manner. Eldar have an army rules adventage, then a core rules adventage, then point costs adventage. They are tier of tier of their own. There are other armies, my dudes for example have speed and have no dmg capability and are high cost, can have one of those. Sometimes two, but not all three.


Practicaly everything LoV is overcosted, especialy the characters, for what the units can do. Same with DG and Ad Mecha. For all three of those the costs vs efficiency is so bad, that all other armies X is overcosted just pales in comperation. It is like comparing having a splinter to a broken bone.

I think its hard to debate without getting a points bar.

I.E. I can see the argument for Retributors to be 110-115 rather than 130 - but in the context of Devastators being 120, Scourge being 120, Havocs being 135 etc it feels like 120ish points per 4 heavy weapons is about the bar with special rules changing the details. With some sort of factoring in for the unit/army special rules.

But looking at say Sacresancts, they are basically Incubi with -1 M and -1 AP but gain a 4++ - and only cost 75%~ as much. Which doesn't seem unreasonable. Drazhar arguably makes Incubi worth taking (+1 to wound significantly widens the window of targets where they'll do anything) - but this a 105 point model into say 85 - so its a very expensive package. I don't know if some characters make Sacresancts interesting. But I suspect its a similar issue. Now your unit is 230~ points and lots of things trade it into it on an okay basis.

I think that weigh up is something that will come with experience. To go with DE - a lot of people have said things like "you'll need a bodyguard for character X" - but do you? If a unit can attack to kill an Archon, odds are it can mow down 5/10 Kabalites standing next to him too.

 LesPaul wrote:
Mutalith Vortex Beast

Dear god

High or low?

 Dysartes wrote:

 LesPaul wrote:
Mutalith Vortex Beast

Dear god

High or low?

It should probably go up in points. I haven't gone to find any analogues, but it has a nice gun with options, T10 4+/5++/5+++ W13, and an ability that does a battleshock and MW bubble of all units within 6".

3 for them for less than a WK.

Maleceptor - 125 points.

This is an odd beast. Approx as tough as a Rhino APC, give or take. But has some solid anti-infantry attacks, a precision weapon with a not unreasonable chance of one shooting characters, and some solid, if swingy on the damage roll, Extra Attacks at S14 for mashing up Dreads and Tanks.

It’s just a really solid all rounder, as there are super few occasions where, range allowing, it can’t make use of a set of attacks. You can’t tar pit it. You can’t Dread Mob it. It’s absolutely killable, but it’s going to make a mess unless you engage it straight off the bat.

All that for a really meagre amount of points. As in a little over 1/6th my army for three at 2,000 points.

I feel like over costed status seems to belong to most former troops units now. And I think we could be in for some real skew lists moving forward.

The game has progressed from troops 'taxes' (whether you buy into that or not) that forced most armies to include what I'll call 'C tier' units.

To Arks of omens soft restrictions which still saw some C tier units included, I'd wager sometimes due to lack of remaining slots.

To 10th which removed all restrictions other than no more than 3 of a unit type.

Do troops or C tier infantry still have a real place in this edition? I mean once the dust settles. Currently everyone will play what they have and like. But metas tend to lean into what works.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Maleceptor - 125 points.

This is an odd beast. Approx as tough as a Rhino APC, give or take. But has some solid anti-infantry attacks, a precision weapon with a not unreasonable chance of one shooting characters, and some solid, if swingy on the damage roll, Extra Attacks at S14 for mashing up Dreads and Tanks.

It’s just a really solid all rounder, as there are super few occasions where, range allowing, it can’t make use of a set of attacks. You can’t tar pit it. You can’t Dread Mob it. It’s absolutely killable, but it’s going to make a mess unless you engage it straight off the bat.

All that for a really meagre amount of points. As in a little over 1/6th my army for three at 2,000 points.

I don't think it needs much of a tweak. M8 and the ability is 6". Gun is 18" and melee is 3 or 6A. I think it makes for a great decision point for the opponent to target above other more damaging units. I say leave it as is.

Tyel wrote:
I think its hard to debate without getting a points bar.

I.E. I can see the argument for Retributors to be 110-115 rather than 130 - but in the context of Devastators being 120, Scourge being 120, Havocs being 135 etc it feels like 120ish points per 4 heavy weapons is about the bar with special rules changing the details. With some sort of factoring in for the unit/army special rules.

But looking at say Sacresancts, they are basically Incubi with -1 M and -1 AP but gain a 4++ - and only cost 75%~ as much. Which doesn't seem unreasonable. Drazhar arguably makes Incubi worth taking (+1 to wound significantly widens the window of targets where they'll do anything) - but this a 105 point model into say 85 - so its a very expensive package. I don't know if some characters make Sacresancts interesting. But I suspect its a similar issue. Now your unit is 230~ points and lots of things trade it into it on an okay basis.

I think that weigh up is something that will come with experience. To go with DE - a lot of people have said things like "you'll need a bodyguard for character X" - but do you? If a unit can attack to kill an Archon, odds are it can mow down 5/10 Kabalites standing next to him too.

You do understand that Devastator marines (and Havocs) are roughly double the stats of Retributors, have better weapons, a better army ability, a better faction ability, AND better buffing characters, right?

If a Devastator squad actually IS fair at 120, Retributors should be 80 or the stats system makes no sense. Even then, overwatch exists so I would be reluctant to take them at all, even at a dirt cheap rate.

None of the Sisters of battle buff characters are worth anything. Especially not in actual combat. Also, what character attaches to what unit is totally arcane and nonsensical and Sacresants specifically don't get their unit ability unless our Second worst character attaches to them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Maleceptor - 125 points.

This is an odd beast. Approx as tough as a Rhino APC, give or take. But has some solid anti-infantry attacks, a precision weapon with a not unreasonable chance of one shooting characters, and some solid, if swingy on the damage roll, Extra Attacks at S14 for mashing up Dreads and Tanks.

It’s just a really solid all rounder, as there are super few occasions where, range allowing, it can’t make use of a set of attacks. You can’t tar pit it. You can’t Dread Mob it. It’s absolutely killable, but it’s going to make a mess unless you engage it straight off the bat.

All that for a really meagre amount of points. As in a little over 1/6th my army for three at 2,000 points.

I don't think it needs much of a tweak. M8 and the ability is 6". Gun is 18" and melee is 3 or 6A. I think it makes for a great decision point for the opponent to target above other more damaging units. I say leave it as is.

Why did I say Maleceptor when I meant Haruspex? How in the name of sensible did I blob that one so hard?

M 8”, T11, Sv 3+, W14, Ld 8+, OC 4

Ranged is Precision, 12” 3+”, A1, S6, AP -2, Dam D6+1. So capable of one-shotting a decent variety of characters. Especially if they’re not T4 or have 3+ or better.

Close Combat?

A14, WS 3+, S7, -1 Dam 2

Extra Attacks?


A4, WS 3+, S14, AP -2, Dam D6+1

For 125 points, it’s filth on a stick. You can’t tar pit. You can’t Dread Mob. Even sending in a bubble up support character is a risk because we all know the sense of humour Dice Gods have.

As I said the Extra Attacks are a bit swing because it’s D6+1 damage. So not exactly something I can entirely rely on for Dreadnought Tipping or Tank Flipping. But given they’re Extra Attacks, and the other 14 have a reasonable chance of plinking? It has no obvious counter. If you send in a squad and Dread or rough equivalent? I’m not forced to pick a profile, because I get both sets of attacks.

For 125 points.

The Vortex Beast is way too low. Look at its stats and abilities. The 1k Sons were not "simplified" the way other armies were.

 LesPaul wrote:
The Vortex Beast is way too low. Look at its stats and abilities. The 1k Sons were not "simplified" the way other armies were.

They were simplified - it just had a lot of abilities before, too. It averages 1.6MW per unit within 6". Thousand Sons are also a psychic army so their sheets have extra "guns". TS are probably quite strong, but they're not bucking the system.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Maleceptor - 125 points.

This is an odd beast. Approx as tough as a Rhino APC, give or take. But has some solid anti-infantry attacks, a precision weapon with a not unreasonable chance of one shooting characters, and some solid, if swingy on the damage roll, Extra Attacks at S14 for mashing up Dreads and Tanks.

It’s just a really solid all rounder, as there are super few occasions where, range allowing, it can’t make use of a set of attacks. You can’t tar pit it. You can’t Dread Mob it. It’s absolutely killable, but it’s going to make a mess unless you engage it straight off the bat.

All that for a really meagre amount of points. As in a little over 1/6th my army for three at 2,000 points.

I don't think it needs much of a tweak. M8 and the ability is 6". Gun is 18" and melee is 3 or 6A. I think it makes for a great decision point for the opponent to target above other more damaging units. I say leave it as is.

Why did I say Maleceptor when I meant Haruspex? How in the name of sensible did I blob that one so hard?

M 8”, T11, Sv 3+, W14, Ld 8+, OC 4

Ranged is Precision, 12” 3+”, A1, S6, AP -2, Dam D6+1. So capable of one-shotting a decent variety of characters. Especially if they’re not T4 or have 3+ or better.

Close Combat?

A14, WS 3+, S7, -1 Dam 2

Extra Attacks?


A4, WS 3+, S14, AP -2, Dam D6+1

For 125 points, it’s filth on a stick. You can’t tar pit. You can’t Dread Mob. Even sending in a bubble up support character is a risk because we all know the sense of humour Dice Gods have.

As I said the Extra Attacks are a bit swing because it’s D6+1 damage. So not exactly something I can entirely rely on for Dreadnought Tipping or Tank Flipping. But given they’re Extra Attacks, and the other 14 have a reasonable chance of plinking? It has no obvious counter. If you send in a squad and Dread or rough equivalent? I’m not forced to pick a profile, because I get both sets of attacks.

For 125 points.

Even that one I don't mind, either. Though I could be totally off base. These bigger models aren't usually picking up many other rules so they have to do it on their own. Generally in the games I've played so far stuff like this gets to the front and gets stuck. It'd probably meet up with my Scarabs and kill 1 or 2 models per fight phase.

These models being tough for the points is great, I think.

Compare to a Brutalis at 220 or Redemptor at 225.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Maleceptor - 125 points.

This is an odd beast. Approx as tough as a Rhino APC, give or take. But has some solid anti-infantry attacks, a precision weapon with a not unreasonable chance of one shooting characters, and some solid, if swingy on the damage roll, Extra Attacks at S14 for mashing up Dreads and Tanks.

It’s just a really solid all rounder, as there are super few occasions where, range allowing, it can’t make use of a set of attacks. You can’t tar pit it. You can’t Dread Mob it. It’s absolutely killable, but it’s going to make a mess unless you engage it straight off the bat.

All that for a really meagre amount of points. As in a little over 1/6th my army for three at 2,000 points.

I don't think it needs much of a tweak. M8 and the ability is 6". Gun is 18" and melee is 3 or 6A. I think it makes for a great decision point for the opponent to target above other more damaging units. I say leave it as is.

Why did I say Maleceptor when I meant Haruspex? How in the name of sensible did I blob that one so hard?

M 8”, T11, Sv 3+, W14, Ld 8+, OC 4

Ranged is Precision, 12” 3+”, A1, S6, AP -2, Dam D6+1. So capable of one-shotting a decent variety of characters. Especially if they’re not T4 or have 3+ or better.

Close Combat?

A14, WS 3+, S7, -1 Dam 2

Extra Attacks?


A4, WS 3+, S14, AP -2, Dam D6+1

For 125 points, it’s filth on a stick. You can’t tar pit. You can’t Dread Mob. Even sending in a bubble up support character is a risk because we all know the sense of humour Dice Gods have.

As I said the Extra Attacks are a bit swing because it’s D6+1 damage. So not exactly something I can entirely rely on for Dreadnought Tipping or Tank Flipping. But given they’re Extra Attacks, and the other 14 have a reasonable chance of plinking? It has no obvious counter. If you send in a squad and Dread or rough equivalent? I’m not forced to pick a profile, because I get both sets of attacks.

For 125 points.

The main thing preventing me from feilding a haruspex is that if I do I can’t include my exocrine. Build my one model so I could swap heads/monsters. And the Exocrine still looks like it can just delete marines off the table casually. Hard to say “no” to that.

But the gibbering maw of endless hunger does make some really strong points.

Fire prisms vs falcons and night spinners. The night spinner being the same price as a falcon sort of tracks. If they decide one of those is worth 140, I can see the other reasonably being pretty similar in price. But then the fire prism is 15 points cheaper than both, which just feels weird.

The webway gate also looks prohibitively expensive. Its rules look pretty decent, more than 10% of your points in a 2k game for a model that doesn't attack and isn't *that* hard to destroy seems like a bit much.

Valkyries are wildly over costed.

Manticore is half the price of the Valkyrie...

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Fire prisms vs falcons and night spinners. The night spinner being the same price as a falcon sort of tracks. If they decide one of those is worth 140, I can see the other reasonably being pretty similar in price. But then the fire prism is 15 points cheaper than both, which just feels weird.

The webway gate also looks prohibitively expensive. Its rules look pretty decent, more than 10% of your points in a 2k game for a model that doesn't attack and isn't *that* hard to destroy seems like a bit much.

yes, but you are already being given free points in the form of undercosted unit, so the gate being 200pts, maybe covers the difference in points between a technicaly 2000pts eldar army and something like 2000pts of IG or tyranids.

It wouldn’t be an Eldar codex without wildly horrible internal ballance.

They might be broken in every edition, but what’s treasure and what’s trash changes almost every time.

 Sledgehammer wrote:
Valkyries are wildly over costed.

Manticore is half the price of the Valkyrie...

Honestly thats one of the only familiar things I've seen lately. I'd be concerned if it wasn't wildly over costed.
Luckily it has an "armoured hole" I assume thats a defense ability.

Undercosted:

Crisis suits with 3 CIB, shield generator, and 2 shield drones each.
in 9th, 3 CIBs and a shield generator cost 60 points on their own, before the cost of the suit to hold them.

Now they cost 65 points per model total. So when you play a triple CIB and Shield Generator crisis suit in 10th, you are effectively paying 5 points for the suit itself. And once you factor in shield drones, each of which adds 1 wound to the model, that cost actually likely becomes negative as I think we'd all agree that adding 2 wounds to an already 4 wound model with a 3+/4++ is worth more than 5 points. I don't know you can get much more undercosted than the game effectively giving you some points if you use them.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Undercosted:

Crisis suits with 3 CIB, shield generator, and 2 shield drones each.
in 9th, 3 CIBs and a shield generator cost 60 points on their own, before the cost of the suit to hold them.

Now they cost 65 points per model total. So when you play a triple CIB and Shield Generator crisis suit in 10th, you are effectively paying 5 points for the suit itself. And once you factor in shield drones, each of which adds 1 wound to the model, that cost actually likely becomes negative as I think we'd all agree that adding 2 wounds to an already 4 wound model with a 3+/4++ is worth more than 5 points. I don't know you can get much more undercosted than the game effectively giving you some points if you use them.

I don't think CIB is as compelling now though.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Maleceptor - 125 points.

This is an odd beast. Approx as tough as a Rhino APC, give or take. But has some solid anti-infantry attacks, a precision weapon with a not unreasonable chance of one shooting characters, and some solid, if swingy on the damage roll, Extra Attacks at S14 for mashing up Dreads and Tanks.

It’s just a really solid all rounder, as there are super few occasions where, range allowing, it can’t make use of a set of attacks. You can’t tar pit it. You can’t Dread Mob it. It’s absolutely killable, but it’s going to make a mess unless you engage it straight off the bat.

All that for a really meagre amount of points. As in a little over 1/6th my army for three at 2,000 points.

I know you mean the Haruspex, but I'd argue that it's the other creatures that are too expensive.

180 for the Screamer Killer? And have you seen the cost of a Trygon? The non-synapse Broodlord and Parasite? The walking HT at 220!!!

 Nevelon wrote:
It wouldn’t be an Eldar codex without wildly horrible internal balance..

4th/5th ed was pretty good!


————————-

I’ve only really looked at Custodes points, but it’s Dawneagle Jetbikes for this army. Their stats got worse, their weapons got worse… but they went up in points.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I don't think CIB is as compelling now though.

I ran the numbers over in the Tau Tactics thread, and a maxed out squad of CIB suits with commander support (500 points) will do 18 wounds on average to something like a land raider, while killing 1-2 of their own squad. Which does seem good, though I have not looked through enough profiles of targets to really quantify it. The really big downgrade I would say comes in the shield drones. The real power of old drones was in being separate models that just ate up any big attacks really, really efficiently. Now they are a much more linear increase in durability. So the durability of the unit has gone down relatively.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Maleceptor - 125 points.

This is an odd beast. Approx as tough as a Rhino APC, give or take. But has some solid anti-infantry attacks, a precision weapon with a not unreasonable chance of one shooting characters, and some solid, if swingy on the damage roll, Extra Attacks at S14 for mashing up Dreads and Tanks.

It’s just a really solid all rounder, as there are super few occasions where, range allowing, it can’t make use of a set of attacks. You can’t tar pit it. You can’t Dread Mob it. It’s absolutely killable, but it’s going to make a mess unless you engage it straight off the bat.

All that for a really meagre amount of points. As in a little over 1/6th my army for three at 2,000 points.

I know you mean the Haruspex, but I'd argue that it's the other creatures that are too expensive.

180 for the Screamer Killer? And have you seen the cost of a Trygon? The non-synapse Broodlord and Parasite? The walking HT at 220!!!

Still a lot of “find out in play” for me, and whilst generally not a fan of direct comparisons because such things never occur in a vacuum, just casting my eye over other stuff in other lists? 125 is cheap for a beasty with so few direct counter options.

Whilst an oversimplification, all I need do is push it up the board as quickly as I can, trying to keep out of LoS as best possible, my opponent has to try and take it out. With the general drop in lethality, especially in squad based weapons, I think a trio are gonna be near compulsory in any list i field. Sure they lack a fixed save or a native way to shrug off damage, but….they’re ever so cheap, still come with 14 wounds, and because they’re so cheap? They’re not gonna be the only thing I’m worrying the enemy with. Heck, if I plan properly it won’t ever be engaging a complete unit, but something that’s already had some kind of kicking, only increasing the likelihood of a slap up feast once it makes combat.

I just can’t see it not pulling its weight, because it punches so far above it. Even if the ones I’m fielding get shot off the board? T11, W14 and a 3+ is still going to draw a pretty high amount of enemy fire to achieve that.

Haruspex. They’re Gribbly. They’re Beardy. And I fell in love with them before I knew the points.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Undercosted:

Crisis suits with 3 CIB, shield generator, and 2 shield drones each.
in 9th, 3 CIBs and a shield generator cost 60 points on their own, before the cost of the suit to hold them.

Now they cost 65 points per model total. So when you play a triple CIB and Shield Generator crisis suit in 10th, you are effectively paying 5 points for the suit itself. And once you factor in shield drones, each of which adds 1 wound to the model, that cost actually likely becomes negative as I think we'd all agree that adding 2 wounds to an already 4 wound model with a 3+/4++ is worth more than 5 points. I don't know you can get much more undercosted than the game effectively giving you some points if you use them.

I don't think CIB is as compelling now though.

Fair enough, triple fusion and a shield gen would have cost 55, so that means 10 point base crisis. Triple Missile Pod gives 15 point crisis suits before wargear.

nemesis464 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
It wouldn’t be an Eldar codex without wildly horrible internal balance..

4th/5th ed was pretty good!

Iirc 5th had the unkillable falcon due to spirit stones and/or some other upgrade, and you could make them score objectives with the davu (Dire Avenger Vehicle Upgrade; a 5-strong squad transported in the falcon in an edition where transporting troops made the transport scoring). Not sure how competitive that was though.

It's one of the most annoying things about playing eldar, the internal codex balance is often all over the place. Some new edition or a new codex drops and suddenly a random handful of our units are gamebreakingly OP after being shelf decoration for years (often the rest of the units are ok-ish or just bad).

I just want to play some fluffy aspect warriors/counts-as corsairs and not auto-lose while hearing about how awesome my army is due to some units I don't even own.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Fair enough, triple fusion and a shield gen would have cost 55, so that means 10 point base crisis. Triple Missile Pod gives 15 point crisis suits before wargear.

You do realize that Crisis suits are one of the worst units you could use as an argument against 10th style points? They were being brought with max upgrades anyway, at least in terms of hardpoint slots. And the wacky 9th edition costs you are quoting shows the huge problem with trying to point out a unit like crisis suits in great detail. The 9th edition escalating gun costs were a weird artifact of trying to balance generalist and specialized builds on the same unit with weapons of varying quality. Having a point cost based on the actual performance of the unit with guns aimed at different jobs is much more reasonable.

Spore mines. Over twice the cost of a Guardsman, no armour, less movement, no ranged weapon, no OC. Wth.

Yaktan wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Fair enough, triple fusion and a shield gen would have cost 55, so that means 10 point base crisis. Triple Missile Pod gives 15 point crisis suits before wargear.

You do realize that Crisis suits are one of the worst units you could use as an argument against 10th style points? They were being brought with max upgrades anyway, at least in terms of hardpoint slots. And the wacky 9th edition costs you are quoting shows the huge problem with trying to point out a unit like crisis suits in great detail. The 9th edition escalating gun costs were a weird artifact of trying to balance generalist and specialized builds on the same unit with weapons of varying quality. Having a point cost based on the actual performance of the unit with guns aimed at different jobs is much more reasonable.

In general the weapons are worse.

- CIB lost AP on the regular mode and instead of taking 1 MW on OC they take 3 and you can't dodge it with rerolls
- Fusion lost 6" and Assault
- Burst Cannons lost 2 shots
- Pods lost 1 AP
- Plasma 6" and 1 AP

Additionally :
- There's no more overwatch on 5s
- If you don't have markerlights near the end of the game they'll be hitting on 5s
- Exploding 6s is gone ( from gear )
- Ignore cover without markerlights is gone
- They lost all cheap ablative wounds so losses go directly to output

Is 65 per model the right cost? I don't know, but it seems ok for now.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Spore mines. Over twice the cost of a Guardsman, no armour, less movement, no ranged weapon, no OC. Wth.

Spore mines are arguably the best unit in the whole book. Admittedly probably not the ones you buy.

Aberants are pretty good now, but they're not 165pts for five good.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In general the weapons are worse.

- CIB lost AP on the regular mode and instead of taking 1 MW on OC they take 3 and you can't dodge it with rerolls
- Fusion lost 6" and Assault
- Burst Cannons lost 2 shots
- Pods lost 1 AP
- Plasma 6" and 1 AP

Additionally :
- There's no more overwatch on 5s
- If you don't have markerlights near the end of the game they'll be hitting on 5s
- Exploding 6s is gone ( from gear )
- Ignore cover without markerlights is gone
- They lost all cheap ablative wounds so losses go directly to output

Is 65 per model the right cost? I don't know, but it seems ok for now.

Yeah, I was doing comparisons of Crisis suits to other units in Tau army, and nothing has really popped out so far a being unreasonable. CIBs offer good punch, they can reasonably expect to kill a land-raider from a full squad, for about a 50% return. But then you are also giving the land raider a 30-50% return by just sitting there... Fusion blasters will do the same, but are going to be really swingy, and with how the army rule works it will be really tricky to be any sort of efficient if you want to split fire, along with going down to danger-close 12 inch range.

Likewise Breachers can get a good amount of firepower, but again 10 inch range is going to limit it. Strikers seem a little anemic, but they are cheaper and should do fine with objectives/spotting.

Ghostkeels seem a little lacking on the firepower side, but they are super sneaky and got to keep the LOL drone attack eating from 9th.

nemesis464 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
It wouldn’t be an Eldar codex without wildly horrible internal balance..

4th/5th ed was pretty good!


————————-

I’ve only really looked at Custodes points, but it’s Dawneagle Jetbikes for this army. Their stats got worse, their weapons got worse… but they went up in points.

4th was the unkillable Falcon/Skimmerspam edition. So not so much there either.

Undercosted: Every single Eldar unit, but the amounts vary.

Overcosted: Every single Votann and Sisters unit, but the amounts also vary.

 Vilgeir wrote:
Undercosted: Every single Eldar unit, but the amounts vary.

I'm pretty sure it's the fate dice interacting with DW ( rerolls don't help ). Also, superheavies in general should probably go up in points. Not being able to hide from them creates an issue as well, but as a baseline they seem like they might be on par with each other.

Here's a Despoiler with double Battle Cannon shooting terminators ( with its on sheet rerolls and in RF range ):



And the Wraithknight ( with army rerolls and fishing for a 6 for DW ) :





Here's a Despoiler with double Thermal on a Knight:


And in Melta range:


And the WK:

nemesis464 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
It wouldn’t be an Eldar codex without wildly horrible internal balance..

4th/5th ed was pretty good!

I choose to believe that this is satire.

On the ork side,

-Battlewagons could be a bit cheaper. maybe 30?
-Deffdreads certainly need to drop 10 or 20
-Stompas could easily lose 100pts and still be expensive

Nothing for orks feels too cheap to me, just about right for what they provide. Maybe mozrog is a bit too cheap for his durability? But his damage output off the charge is unexceptional.

Toxicrenes.
Trygons.
Screamer Killer.
Hive Tyrants.
Tervigons especially!
Tyranid Warriors (GW forgot it isn't 9th anymore).
Hive Guard (GW forgot that Impalers aren't S8 indirect fire anymore).
Broodlords (assuming its lack of synapse is intentional)
Parasite (as above)
Psychophage (rando attacks and really only good if fighting a psyker)
Sporocyst (145? LOL!)

I've got one that everyone seems to be sleeping on Lokhust Destroyers with an attached Lokhust Lord. So, 6 plus the Lord is a fairly substantial 265 points, but the firepower and durability you get from it is absurd.

So you get 18 shots, hitting on 3's re-rolling 1's with 5+ Lethal Hits. That's already an average of 7 auto wounds. The standard profile of S5 AP-2 D:2 is also solid in it's own right. You can also use Vengeful stars for 1CP to get a second round of shooting out of them if they are ever targeted. Plus you get D3 wounds back EACH command phase and have a strat to res more if needed. These are on a T6 3+sv, W3 modeles.

These things are going to erase full squads of heavy infantry every turn, be damn near impossible to kill, and can even punch up somewhat effectively into vehicles. Very few units are the whole swiss army package any more, this is one of them, keep your eyes on them.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

nemesis464 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
It wouldn’t be an Eldar codex without wildly horrible internal balance..

4th/5th ed was pretty good!

I choose to believe that this is satire.

How? The Codex was actually fairly weak, the main thing people could complain about was Falcons with holo-fields (which were expensive).

The OP nonsense didn’t come until the new Codex with the Wave Serpent shields etc. Are you thinking of that one?

Yaktan wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In general the weapons are worse.

- CIB lost AP on the regular mode and instead of taking 1 MW on OC they take 3 and you can't dodge it with rerolls
- Fusion lost 6" and Assault
- Burst Cannons lost 2 shots
- Pods lost 1 AP
- Plasma 6" and 1 AP

Additionally :
- There's no more overwatch on 5s
- If you don't have markerlights near the end of the game they'll be hitting on 5s
- Exploding 6s is gone ( from gear )
- Ignore cover without markerlights is gone
- They lost all cheap ablative wounds so losses go directly to output

Is 65 per model the right cost? I don't know, but it seems ok for now.

Yeah, I was doing comparisons of Crisis suits to other units in Tau army, and nothing has really popped out so far a being unreasonable. CIBs offer good punch, they can reasonably expect to kill a land-raider from a full squad, for about a 50% return. But then you are also giving the land raider a 30-50% return by just sitting there... Fusion blasters will do the same, but are going to be really swingy, and with how the army rule works it will be really tricky to be any sort of efficient if you want to split fire, along with going down to danger-close 12 inch range.

Likewise Breachers can get a good amount of firepower, but again 10 inch range is going to limit it. Strikers seem a little anemic, but they are cheaper and should do fine with objectives/spotting.

Ghostkeels seem a little lacking on the firepower side, but they are super sneaky and got to keep the LOL drone attack eating from 9th.

I tried out the Crisis suits the other day and them becoming 6W models with a 4+ invul (assuming you take shields) is super chunky with how weapons have been more/less toned down this edition. I went against space marines and it took 3 turns of them pouring nearly everything into them with OOM (in a 1000 point game) just to down the 6 man squad and even that was only because of some 3 lucky D6 devastating wounds. Damage output is still great if you get them close. I wouldn't say they are over costed, but I like where they are at ATM.

Breachers are sure hamstrung by range, but boy do they output damage. Targeting a unit of Space Marines on an objective (with Kauyon and Stealthsuit marker) I dealt a whopping 26 wounds at Ap-1.

Speaking of, Stealthsuits giving things +1 to wound when marker lighting is REAL strong. not sure if they can be considered over costed because they don't do too much else and are relatively fragile, but if they live, they raise your damage output by A LOT.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Toxicrenes.
Trygons.
Screamer Killer.
Hive Tyrants.
Tervigons especially!
Tyranid Warriors (GW forgot it isn't 9th anymore).
Hive Guard (GW forgot that Impalers aren't S8 indirect fire anymore).
Broodlords (assuming its lack of synapse is intentional)
Parasite (as above)
Psychophage (rando attacks and really only good if fighting a psyker)
Sporocyst (145? LOL!)

I've actually heard good things about Trygons. Other than that, don't necessarily disagree.

Their rules are pretty alright, it's just that their cost is considerable compared to other similar things. The Mawloc is 145, and the Trygon is 180. It's the same issue the Screamer Killer has, being 180 compared to the Carnifexes 125 cost.

Give the Carnifex back it's WS3+ and +2 wounds, and cost both of them at 145-150, then you might have the sweetspot.

Overcosted: Most of Daemons.

160pts for a unit of 10 Bloodletters... T4 W1 7+ (just in case you were planning to using cover) 5++
or 140pts for a unit of 10 daemonettes at T3 W1 7+ 5++

There is no point taking lesser daemons since you don't have the points to take enough of them to matter, and those you have the points to take will just get shot off the board before they make any impact.

cody.d. wrote:
On the ork side,

-Battlewagons could be a bit cheaper. maybe 30?
-Deffdreads certainly need to drop 10 or 20
-Stompas could easily lose 100pts and still be expensive

Nothing for orks feels too cheap to me, just about right for what they provide. Maybe mozrog is a bit too cheap for his durability? But his damage output off the charge is unexceptional.

I mostly agree. Deff Dreads I could see staying the same cost if they gave them more wounds or -1 damage or something, but could overall do with a point decrease.

Battlewagons could probably sit around the 160 mark.

Stompa is the only thing in the book that looks grossly overcosted, could do with at least 100 points or so knocked off.

Otherwise at the moment I think the ork book is in a reasonably good spot in terms of points.

 Tawnis wrote:

Yaktan wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In general the weapons are worse.

- CIB lost AP on the regular mode and instead of taking 1 MW on OC they take 3 and you can't dodge it with rerolls
- Fusion lost 6" and Assault
- Burst Cannons lost 2 shots
- Pods lost 1 AP
- Plasma 6" and 1 AP

Additionally :
- There's no more overwatch on 5s
- If you don't have markerlights near the end of the game they'll be hitting on 5s
- Exploding 6s is gone ( from gear )
- Ignore cover without markerlights is gone
- They lost all cheap ablative wounds so losses go directly to output

Is 65 per model the right cost? I don't know, but it seems ok for now.

Yeah, I was doing comparisons of Crisis suits to other units in Tau army, and nothing has really popped out so far a being unreasonable. CIBs offer good punch, they can reasonably expect to kill a land-raider from a full squad, for about a 50% return. But then you are also giving the land raider a 30-50% return by just sitting there... Fusion blasters will do the same, but are going to be really swingy, and with how the army rule works it will be really tricky to be any sort of efficient if you want to split fire, along with going down to danger-close 12 inch range.

Likewise Breachers can get a good amount of firepower, but again 10 inch range is going to limit it. Strikers seem a little anemic, but they are cheaper and should do fine with objectives/spotting.

Ghostkeels seem a little lacking on the firepower side, but they are super sneaky and got to keep the LOL drone attack eating from 9th.

I tried out the Crisis suits the other day and them becoming 6W models with a 4+ invul (assuming you take shields) is super chunky with how weapons have been more/less toned down this edition. I went against space marines and it took 3 turns of them pouring nearly everything into them with OOM (in a 1000 point game) just to down the 6 man squad and even that was only because of some 3 lucky D6 devastating wounds. Damage output is still great if you get them close. I wouldn't say they are over costed, but I like where they are at ATM.

Breachers are sure hamstrung by range, but boy do they output damage. Targeting a unit of Space Marines on an objective (with Kauyon and Stealthsuit marker) I dealt a whopping 26 wounds at Ap-1.

Speaking of, Stealthsuits giving things +1 to wound when marker lighting is REAL strong. not sure if they can be considered over costed because they don't do too much else and are relatively fragile, but if they live, they raise your damage output by A LOT.

Aren't stealthsuits reroll 1s for wounds, not +1 to wound? Still good, but not THAT good.

 DominayTrix wrote:

Aren't stealthsuits reroll 1s for wounds, not +1 to wound? Still good, but not THAT good.

My bad, you're right. So many new rules, hard to keep them all straight.

I'm just comparing units within the Space Marine book, I'm not comparing them to other factions here.

Undercosted: Probably the Gladiator Lancer. It's pretty obviously the best Gladiator variant. Why is it cheaper than the other two?


Overcosted: Intercessors. Poor Intercessors. I was afraid this would happen. Despite a huge boost to their weapon, there really is no reason to take them when you can just have the same unit with a variety of better guns for a pittance more. Unless sticky objectives turns out to be way, way better than I am thinking.

Tau gun drone squadrons being 70 points for 4 models seems laughably over-costed.

I can't remember if they've been mentioned, but 100 points for 6 Spore Mines and, worse, 90 points for 2 Mucolid Spores really are in the "'avin' a laff" area for points.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I can't remember if they've been mentioned, but 100 points for 6 Spore Mines and, worse, 90 points for 2 Mucolid Spores really are in the "'avin' a laff" area for points.

On this?

Do we need to pay for Ammo versions of the same?

Doesn't not appear so.

At least it means Biovore and that Pod Thing aren’t unfieldable.

Still daft prices of course.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
At least it means Biovore and that Pod Thing aren’t unfieldable.

The Biovore's perfectly fine. The Sporocyst, at 145, not so much.

apogats wrote:
Overcosted: Intercessors. Poor Intercessors. I was afraid this would happen. Despite a huge boost to their weapon, there really is no reason to take them when you can just have the same unit with a variety of better guns for a pittance more. Unless sticky objectives turns out to be way, way better than I am thinking.

I'd been meaning to check and just did, Infiltrator Squads are cheaper than Intercessors, oh em gee. 12" deep strike denial is so powerful, I actually thought they would delete that rule it warps the game so much between factions.

apogats wrote:
I'm just comparing units within the Space Marine book, I'm not comparing them to other factions here.

Undercosted: Probably the Gladiator Lancer. It's pretty obviously the best Gladiator variant. Why is it cheaper than the other two?


Overcosted: Intercessors. Poor Intercessors. I was afraid this would happen. Despite a huge boost to their weapon, there really is no reason to take them when you can just have the same unit with a variety of better guns for a pittance more. Unless sticky objectives turns out to be way, way better than I am thinking.

Valiant has 6 AT shots ( 2 with TL ), stubber, and pod. +1 to hit vs closest M/V.
Reaper has SH2 v INFANTRY and rerollable DW on it's HOGC, 2 tempest bolters ( up to 16 shots ), stubber, and pod.
Lancer has 2 heavy AT shots with heavy, 2 storm bolters, stubber, and pod. Ability is one reroll per attack segment.

In general the Lancer isn't going to use it's mid-range weapons so getting a 10 point discount on top of the others getting more volume seems fine.

Are you referring to Sternguard? Don't underestimate sticky objectives and a TH and GL.

The Valiant only has 6 anti-tank shots if you are counting the meltas. Which ... maybe? They are randomly str 10 for no reason. The Valiant has 2 anti tank shots and 4 shots with whatever meltas are now. +1 to hit closest vehicle/monster is ok but Lancer can get +1 to hit with the laser destroyer by just remaining stationary, and it gets a free hit, wound, and damage reroll on top of that.

Reaper is fine, it's very good at what it does obviously. But the problem with the Reaper is just what it always has been; it's just not needed. Marines have a lot of other ways to get a bunch of damage 1 attacks.

Basically every tacticus armor unit is an intercessor only better. Infiltrators, incursors, hellblasters, assault intercessors, sternguard.. all of these have major advantages over intercessors. If you want to extend to the gravis armor stuff, even the Heavy Intercessors have +1w/+1t/+1 str on gun and are only 3 points more than an intercessor.

So like I said, the wildcard for me is sticky objectives. If that turns out to be incredibly useful then maybe they will find a place. Unfortunately they're not too hard to smash through them in melee.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
On the ork side,

-Battlewagons could be a bit cheaper. maybe 30?
-Deffdreads certainly need to drop 10 or 20
-Stompas could easily lose 100pts and still be expensive

Nothing for orks feels too cheap to me, just about right for what they provide. Maybe mozrog is a bit too cheap for his durability? But his damage output off the charge is unexceptional.

I mostly agree. Deff Dreads I could see staying the same cost if they gave them more wounds or -1 damage or something, but could overall do with a point decrease.

Battlewagons could probably sit around the 160 mark.

Stompa is the only thing in the book that looks grossly overcosted, could do with at least 100 points or so knocked off.

Otherwise at the moment I think the ork book is in a reasonably good spot in terms of points.

Like, I could be wrong, maybe there's some janky rules interaction i'm not seeing that makes them wondefrully potent. I've mentioned stompa overwatch before but yet to test it yet.

After a few games maybe they'll all feel pretty nice, we'll have to see eh? But Gorks teef do I want to be able to use my stompa.

Side note, the warhound is 1100pts, very curious to see it's profile, how they compare sitting in the rooooughly same class of small titan.

Terminators and Centurions may be more-than-a-little-but-less-than-a-lot overcosted.

10 of them are about 12 Eradicators (probably slightly undercosted), 5 ATV's, 3 Predators, 2 Repulsors, 2 and a half Gladiators, 15 Devastators and change, most of 3 Dreadnoughts...

Not sure if it's under-costed yet but I plan on trying out my 1100pt Warhound against my bud's Greater Daemon Spam. =)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

Terminators and Centurions may be more-than-a-little-but-less-than-a-lot overcosted.

10 of them are about 12 Eradicators (probably slightly undercosted), 5 ATV's, 3 Predators, 2 Repulsors, 2 and a half Gladiators, 15 Devastators and change, most of 3 Dreadnoughts...

I like where Wolfguard Terminators were points-wise, at the End of 9th; at 35ppm. 400 points (40ppm) for a squad of 10 at first glance almost seems too expensive.

apogats wrote:
The Valiant only has 6 anti-tank shots if you are counting the meltas. Which ... maybe? They are randomly str 10 for no reason. The Valiant has 2 anti tank shots and 4 shots with whatever meltas are now. +1 to hit closest vehicle/monster is ok but Lancer can get +1 to hit with the laser destroyer by just remaining stationary, and it gets a free hit, wound, and damage reroll on top of that.

Reaper is fine, it's very good at what it does obviously. But the problem with the Reaper is just what it always has been; it's just not needed. Marines have a lot of other ways to get a bunch of damage 1 attacks.

Basically every tacticus armor unit is an intercessor only better. Infiltrators, incursors, hellblasters, assault intercessors, sternguard.. all of these have major advantages over intercessors. If you want to extend to the gravis armor stuff, even the Heavy Intercessors have +1w/+1t/+1 str on gun and are only 3 points more than an intercessor.

So like I said, the wildcard for me is sticky objectives. If that turns out to be incredibly useful then maybe they will find a place. Unfortunately they're not too hard to smash through them in melee.

You're generally not taking more than a squad or two for sure. It's the downside ( and upside ) of the abilities since you reach a saturation point and it'd be silly not to have other tools included.

The Reaper is great for dealing with Custodes without needing Oath on the target. They still have the 4+++, but this gets volume into them and it's a big upgrade from AP0.

Wyches (110 pts for 10) are overcosted, considering that they've lost their special weapons and combat drugs. Three S3 attacks at AP -1 is just pitiful for melee-oriented models that have the resilience of wet paper.

That being said, I think the solution isn't to lower their points cost, but to make their melee weapons Anti-Infantry 3+.

.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Wyches (110 pts for 10) are overcosted, considering that they've lost their special weapons and combat drugs. Three S3 attacks at AP -1 is just pitiful for melee-oriented models that have the resilience of wet paper.

That being said, I think the solution isn't to lower their points cost, but to make their melee weapons Anti-Infantry 3+.

.

Not challenging your summary (those attacks are weedy), do they have OC2?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not challenging your summary (those attacks are weedy), do they have OC2?

They do. They're the basic trooper units of the wych cults.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Wyches (110 pts for 10) are overcosted, considering that they've lost their special weapons and combat drugs. Three S3 attacks at AP -1 is just pitiful for melee-oriented models that have the resilience of wet paper.

That being said, I think the solution isn't to lower their points cost, but to make their melee weapons Anti-Infantry 3+.

.

I honestly think they are cost with Lelith in mind. Mind you I think they are trash, but if you add a Lelith they become Str4, Attack First, and get an extra rend. I at least suspect someone at the office was playtesting Lelith always attached to wyches.

-Guardsman- wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not challenging your summary (those attacks are weedy), do they have OC2?

They do. They're the basic trooper units of the wych cults.

Not denying your otherwise accurate observations, but OC being a new stat is something I think we might better appreciate with experience.

They do still sound overcosted for such a squishy unit, but even so it’s how overcosted.

They were about right before at 10 ppm but thats with blade artists, drugs, +1 attack, adv + charge etc. Not great as a base unit but with the right cult and all things combined they could be pretty damn decent. These new sober girls are just lelith ablatives.

I don't see point changes doing much for them.

I can get 10 Tzaangors for 65. They are T4 6++ and A2 W4 S5 AP1. Clearly the Tzaangors are more durable and cheaper, but also can't benefit from any of the detachment abilities ( which begs the question of their cost in future detachments, but I digress ). Wyches on the other hand can pick up pain tokens.

Wyches v MEQ do 2.1 ( pistols ) + 3.3 and Tzaangors do 3.3.

110 / 5.4 = 20.4 ( 20 points of wyches per wound )
65 / 3.3 = 19.7

MEQ bolters - 3.7 to Wyches and 2.8 to Tzaangors
MEQ punches - 2.2 to Wyches and 2.8 to Tzaangors

5.9 * 11 = 65
5.6 * 6.5 = 36

Tzaangors are twice as tough, but Wyches also have access to grenades, an extra 2" of M, and pain tokens. Lelith, wyches, and a token can clear 10 marines ( without Lelith popping off ). Tzaangors can kill three with a Shaman helping, but they'll probably be a ton more durable.

dominuschao wrote:
They were about right before at 10 ppm but thats with blade artists, drugs, +1 attack, adv + charge etc. Not great as a base unit but with the right cult and all things combined they could be pretty damn decent. These new sober girls are just lelith ablatives.

I don't see point changes doing much for them.

Politely? We’re currently looking at 10th Ed stats through a 9th Ed lens.

Not saying “therefore you am the wrong”, just we can’t make such a direct comparison. Nor is this some dodgy “they are obviously secretly well hard” claim.

Just once again emphasising the need for actual in-game experience to get a better grasp of the bigger picture.

Wyches could be worse - they could be Storm Guardians.

But yeah - the rules are soft and I don't think there's a way to make them deliverable.

There's maybe some sort of "Timmy/super casual Play" when your Wyches+Lelith jump out of a Raider and eat some Marines and you feel good about it. But that's a 305 point package. The opportunity cost is considerable - its asking for a bad trade where you eat a 100ish point unit and then get hosed down next turn.

As we've discussed loads of times - its a unit which doesn't scratch MEQ, which means it functionally doesn't work in 40k. "They can kill GEQ" - sure, but GEQ kill them if they try.

Tyel wrote:
As we've discussed loads of times - its a unit which doesn't scratch MEQ, which means it functionally doesn't work in 40k. "They can kill GEQ" - sure, but GEQ kill them if they try.

They're more effective vs MEQ than MEQ, I think. They bounce in melee vs heavy infantry a little more than marines mostly due to the TH. Lelith would keep them off wounding on 6s and boost them quite a bit there. The guns are also a lot less flexible than marines. They could maybe do with a small drop, because they're fragile, but not a ton.

Tyel wrote:
Wyches could be worse - they could be Storm Guardians.

But yeah - the rules are soft and I don't think there's a way to make them deliverable.

There's maybe some sort of "Timmy/super casual Play" when your Wyches+Lelith jump out of a Raider and eat some Marines and you feel good about it. But that's a 305 point package. The opportunity cost is considerable - its asking for a bad trade where you eat a 100ish point unit and then get hosed down next turn.

As we've discussed loads of times - its a unit which doesn't scratch MEQ, which means it functionally doesn't work in 40k. "They can kill GEQ" - sure, but GEQ kill them if they try.

And right here? You’re imaging a not-great unit in a vacuum. Where it’s just that one using and it’s transport and booster characters in isolation. That, by your numbers 305 points Vs let’s say 2,000 points with no backup, and absolutely nothing else going on whatsoever.

Hence whilst I don’t dispute Wyches seem weedy? Just *how* weedy is very much FOIP.

That requires experience and accurate reporting.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hence whilst I don’t dispute Wyches seem weedy? Just *how* weedy is very much FOIP.

That requires experience and accurate reporting.

I sympathise with the FOIP idea - but "light melee" is something which is not unheard of in 40k history, and has generally been bad.

They overcosted my beautiful golden boys, paying for sins of the past.

Sanguinary Guard - 43 pts a model...

Just think it's nuts that Wyches lost Combat Drugs. It's been a defining part of their rules since they were first introduced to the game in 3rd Ed.

It'd be like taking Boneswords or Scything Talons away from Tyranid War... wait bad example...

It'd be like taking Chainaxes away from Khorne Berzerkers.

Mutalith Vortex Beast. Does way too much for its cost.

apogats wrote:
The Valiant only has 6 anti-tank shots if you are counting the meltas. Which ... maybe? They are randomly str 10 for no reason.

They're not the only Melta that does that, I think they're the first step over the Man Portable Melta towards the Thermal Lance on the Knights whichi is S12 ish. Its not randomly for no reason, but you have to look around to see it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Just think it's nuts that Wyches lost Combat Drugs. It's been a defining part of their rules since they were first introduced to the game in 3rd Ed.

It'd be like taking Boneswords or Scything Talons away from Tyranid War... wait bad example...

It'd be like taking Chainaxes away from Khorne Berzerkers.

Lelith Hesperax, once defined by not using combat drugs and still being the best despite that handicap, is now just like every other wych.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Just think it's nuts that Wyches lost Combat Drugs. It's been a defining part of their rules since they were first introduced to the game in 3rd Ed.

It'd be like taking Boneswords or Scything Talons away from Tyranid War... wait bad example...

It'd be like taking Chainaxes away from Khorne Berzerkers.

Lelith Hesperax, once defined by not using combat drugs and still being the best despite that handicap, is now just like every other wych.

As the greatest of wyches, Lelith "Just Say No" Hesperax successfully lead the "Drukhari Against 'Roid Enhancements" movement to eliminate the use of combat drugs.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Just think it's nuts that Wyches lost Combat Drugs. It's been a defining part of their rules since they were first introduced to the game in 3rd Ed.

It'd be like taking Boneswords or Scything Talons away from Tyranid War... wait bad example...

It'd be like taking Chainaxes away from Khorne Berzerkers.

It's extra weird because the SM Assault Squad gets something that would translate very well (insert comment about NPC factions and left-hand/right-hand ignorance here). Representing combat drugs by adding one of the standard weapon special rules to your melee attacks would be pretty close to how they used to work, save for the extra movement one.

I also think it's weird that many units got the rules for Swooping Hawk Grenade Packs (ie. roll dice for a unit you moved over, and they suffer MW) and the one unit that didn't get that rule is Swooping Hawks.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I also think it's weird that many units got the rules for Swooping Hawk Grenade Packs (ie. roll dice for a unit you moved over, and they suffer MW) and the one unit that didn't get that rule is Swooping Hawks.

While Skyleap looks to be very useful, the grenade packs are more iconic. If there was a dictum from on high that normal units only get one special rule, I’d have just left them with normal DS and scattered grenades across the battlefield.

On topic for this thread, 75 seems an OK price for 5? Hard to tell. They are very glass cannon. With the volume of shots they put out with lethal hits, they can force a lot of armor saves. But they are also just squishy little elves with T3 and a 4+/5++ save. Someone looks at them funny and it’s going to be a cloud of gore and feathers.

 DominayTrix wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Just think it's nuts that Wyches lost Combat Drugs. It's been a defining part of their rules since they were first introduced to the game in 3rd Ed.

It'd be like taking Boneswords or Scything Talons away from Tyranid War... wait bad example...

It'd be like taking Chainaxes away from Khorne Berzerkers.

Lelith Hesperax, once defined by not using combat drugs and still being the best despite that handicap, is now just like every other wych.

As the greatest of wyches, Lelith "Just Say No" Hesperax successfully lead the "Drukhari Against 'Roid Enhancements" movement to eliminate the use of combat drugs.

Combat Drugs are now a Succubus ability that enhances the units she leads as a second leader ability, Storm of Blades being the first.