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I'm just comparing units within the Space Marine book, I'm not comparing them to other factions here.

Undercosted: Probably the Gladiator Lancer. It's pretty obviously the best Gladiator variant. Why is it cheaper than the other two?


Overcosted: Intercessors. Poor Intercessors. I was afraid this would happen. Despite a huge boost to their weapon, there really is no reason to take them when you can just have the same unit with a variety of better guns for a pittance more. Unless sticky objectives turns out to be way, way better than I am thinking.

Tau gun drone squadrons being 70 points for 4 models seems laughably over-costed.

I can't remember if they've been mentioned, but 100 points for 6 Spore Mines and, worse, 90 points for 2 Mucolid Spores really are in the "'avin' a laff" area for points.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I can't remember if they've been mentioned, but 100 points for 6 Spore Mines and, worse, 90 points for 2 Mucolid Spores really are in the "'avin' a laff" area for points.

On this?

Do we need to pay for Ammo versions of the same?

Doesn't not appear so.

At least it means Biovore and that Pod Thing aren’t unfieldable.

Still daft prices of course.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
At least it means Biovore and that Pod Thing aren’t unfieldable.

The Biovore's perfectly fine. The Sporocyst, at 145, not so much.

apogats wrote:
Overcosted: Intercessors. Poor Intercessors. I was afraid this would happen. Despite a huge boost to their weapon, there really is no reason to take them when you can just have the same unit with a variety of better guns for a pittance more. Unless sticky objectives turns out to be way, way better than I am thinking.

I'd been meaning to check and just did, Infiltrator Squads are cheaper than Intercessors, oh em gee. 12" deep strike denial is so powerful, I actually thought they would delete that rule it warps the game so much between factions.

apogats wrote:
I'm just comparing units within the Space Marine book, I'm not comparing them to other factions here.

Undercosted: Probably the Gladiator Lancer. It's pretty obviously the best Gladiator variant. Why is it cheaper than the other two?


Overcosted: Intercessors. Poor Intercessors. I was afraid this would happen. Despite a huge boost to their weapon, there really is no reason to take them when you can just have the same unit with a variety of better guns for a pittance more. Unless sticky objectives turns out to be way, way better than I am thinking.

Valiant has 6 AT shots ( 2 with TL ), stubber, and pod. +1 to hit vs closest M/V.
Reaper has SH2 v INFANTRY and rerollable DW on it's HOGC, 2 tempest bolters ( up to 16 shots ), stubber, and pod.
Lancer has 2 heavy AT shots with heavy, 2 storm bolters, stubber, and pod. Ability is one reroll per attack segment.

In general the Lancer isn't going to use it's mid-range weapons so getting a 10 point discount on top of the others getting more volume seems fine.

Are you referring to Sternguard? Don't underestimate sticky objectives and a TH and GL.

The Valiant only has 6 anti-tank shots if you are counting the meltas. Which ... maybe? They are randomly str 10 for no reason. The Valiant has 2 anti tank shots and 4 shots with whatever meltas are now. +1 to hit closest vehicle/monster is ok but Lancer can get +1 to hit with the laser destroyer by just remaining stationary, and it gets a free hit, wound, and damage reroll on top of that.

Reaper is fine, it's very good at what it does obviously. But the problem with the Reaper is just what it always has been; it's just not needed. Marines have a lot of other ways to get a bunch of damage 1 attacks.

Basically every tacticus armor unit is an intercessor only better. Infiltrators, incursors, hellblasters, assault intercessors, sternguard.. all of these have major advantages over intercessors. If you want to extend to the gravis armor stuff, even the Heavy Intercessors have +1w/+1t/+1 str on gun and are only 3 points more than an intercessor.

So like I said, the wildcard for me is sticky objectives. If that turns out to be incredibly useful then maybe they will find a place. Unfortunately they're not too hard to smash through them in melee.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
On the ork side,

-Battlewagons could be a bit cheaper. maybe 30?
-Deffdreads certainly need to drop 10 or 20
-Stompas could easily lose 100pts and still be expensive

Nothing for orks feels too cheap to me, just about right for what they provide. Maybe mozrog is a bit too cheap for his durability? But his damage output off the charge is unexceptional.

I mostly agree. Deff Dreads I could see staying the same cost if they gave them more wounds or -1 damage or something, but could overall do with a point decrease.

Battlewagons could probably sit around the 160 mark.

Stompa is the only thing in the book that looks grossly overcosted, could do with at least 100 points or so knocked off.

Otherwise at the moment I think the ork book is in a reasonably good spot in terms of points.

Like, I could be wrong, maybe there's some janky rules interaction i'm not seeing that makes them wondefrully potent. I've mentioned stompa overwatch before but yet to test it yet.

After a few games maybe they'll all feel pretty nice, we'll have to see eh? But Gorks teef do I want to be able to use my stompa.

Side note, the warhound is 1100pts, very curious to see it's profile, how they compare sitting in the rooooughly same class of small titan.

Terminators and Centurions may be more-than-a-little-but-less-than-a-lot overcosted.

10 of them are about 12 Eradicators (probably slightly undercosted), 5 ATV's, 3 Predators, 2 Repulsors, 2 and a half Gladiators, 15 Devastators and change, most of 3 Dreadnoughts...

Not sure if it's under-costed yet but I plan on trying out my 1100pt Warhound against my bud's Greater Daemon Spam. =)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

Terminators and Centurions may be more-than-a-little-but-less-than-a-lot overcosted.

10 of them are about 12 Eradicators (probably slightly undercosted), 5 ATV's, 3 Predators, 2 Repulsors, 2 and a half Gladiators, 15 Devastators and change, most of 3 Dreadnoughts...

I like where Wolfguard Terminators were points-wise, at the End of 9th; at 35ppm. 400 points (40ppm) for a squad of 10 at first glance almost seems too expensive.

apogats wrote:
The Valiant only has 6 anti-tank shots if you are counting the meltas. Which ... maybe? They are randomly str 10 for no reason. The Valiant has 2 anti tank shots and 4 shots with whatever meltas are now. +1 to hit closest vehicle/monster is ok but Lancer can get +1 to hit with the laser destroyer by just remaining stationary, and it gets a free hit, wound, and damage reroll on top of that.

Reaper is fine, it's very good at what it does obviously. But the problem with the Reaper is just what it always has been; it's just not needed. Marines have a lot of other ways to get a bunch of damage 1 attacks.

Basically every tacticus armor unit is an intercessor only better. Infiltrators, incursors, hellblasters, assault intercessors, sternguard.. all of these have major advantages over intercessors. If you want to extend to the gravis armor stuff, even the Heavy Intercessors have +1w/+1t/+1 str on gun and are only 3 points more than an intercessor.

So like I said, the wildcard for me is sticky objectives. If that turns out to be incredibly useful then maybe they will find a place. Unfortunately they're not too hard to smash through them in melee.

You're generally not taking more than a squad or two for sure. It's the downside ( and upside ) of the abilities since you reach a saturation point and it'd be silly not to have other tools included.

The Reaper is great for dealing with Custodes without needing Oath on the target. They still have the 4+++, but this gets volume into them and it's a big upgrade from AP0.

Wyches (110 pts for 10) are overcosted, considering that they've lost their special weapons and combat drugs. Three S3 attacks at AP -1 is just pitiful for melee-oriented models that have the resilience of wet paper.

That being said, I think the solution isn't to lower their points cost, but to make their melee weapons Anti-Infantry 3+.

.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Wyches (110 pts for 10) are overcosted, considering that they've lost their special weapons and combat drugs. Three S3 attacks at AP -1 is just pitiful for melee-oriented models that have the resilience of wet paper.

That being said, I think the solution isn't to lower their points cost, but to make their melee weapons Anti-Infantry 3+.

.

Not challenging your summary (those attacks are weedy), do they have OC2?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not challenging your summary (those attacks are weedy), do they have OC2?

They do. They're the basic trooper units of the wych cults.

-Guardsman- wrote:
Wyches (110 pts for 10) are overcosted, considering that they've lost their special weapons and combat drugs. Three S3 attacks at AP -1 is just pitiful for melee-oriented models that have the resilience of wet paper.

That being said, I think the solution isn't to lower their points cost, but to make their melee weapons Anti-Infantry 3+.

.

I honestly think they are cost with Lelith in mind. Mind you I think they are trash, but if you add a Lelith they become Str4, Attack First, and get an extra rend. I at least suspect someone at the office was playtesting Lelith always attached to wyches.

-Guardsman- wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not challenging your summary (those attacks are weedy), do they have OC2?

They do. They're the basic trooper units of the wych cults.

Not denying your otherwise accurate observations, but OC being a new stat is something I think we might better appreciate with experience.

They do still sound overcosted for such a squishy unit, but even so it’s how overcosted.

They were about right before at 10 ppm but thats with blade artists, drugs, +1 attack, adv + charge etc. Not great as a base unit but with the right cult and all things combined they could be pretty damn decent. These new sober girls are just lelith ablatives.

I don't see point changes doing much for them.

I can get 10 Tzaangors for 65. They are T4 6++ and A2 W4 S5 AP1. Clearly the Tzaangors are more durable and cheaper, but also can't benefit from any of the detachment abilities ( which begs the question of their cost in future detachments, but I digress ). Wyches on the other hand can pick up pain tokens.

Wyches v MEQ do 2.1 ( pistols ) + 3.3 and Tzaangors do 3.3.

110 / 5.4 = 20.4 ( 20 points of wyches per wound )
65 / 3.3 = 19.7

MEQ bolters - 3.7 to Wyches and 2.8 to Tzaangors
MEQ punches - 2.2 to Wyches and 2.8 to Tzaangors

5.9 * 11 = 65
5.6 * 6.5 = 36

Tzaangors are twice as tough, but Wyches also have access to grenades, an extra 2" of M, and pain tokens. Lelith, wyches, and a token can clear 10 marines ( without Lelith popping off ). Tzaangors can kill three with a Shaman helping, but they'll probably be a ton more durable.

dominuschao wrote:
They were about right before at 10 ppm but thats with blade artists, drugs, +1 attack, adv + charge etc. Not great as a base unit but with the right cult and all things combined they could be pretty damn decent. These new sober girls are just lelith ablatives.

I don't see point changes doing much for them.

Politely? We’re currently looking at 10th Ed stats through a 9th Ed lens.

Not saying “therefore you am the wrong”, just we can’t make such a direct comparison. Nor is this some dodgy “they are obviously secretly well hard” claim.

Just once again emphasising the need for actual in-game experience to get a better grasp of the bigger picture.

Wyches could be worse - they could be Storm Guardians.

But yeah - the rules are soft and I don't think there's a way to make them deliverable.

There's maybe some sort of "Timmy/super casual Play" when your Wyches+Lelith jump out of a Raider and eat some Marines and you feel good about it. But that's a 305 point package. The opportunity cost is considerable - its asking for a bad trade where you eat a 100ish point unit and then get hosed down next turn.

As we've discussed loads of times - its a unit which doesn't scratch MEQ, which means it functionally doesn't work in 40k. "They can kill GEQ" - sure, but GEQ kill them if they try.

Tyel wrote:
As we've discussed loads of times - its a unit which doesn't scratch MEQ, which means it functionally doesn't work in 40k. "They can kill GEQ" - sure, but GEQ kill them if they try.

They're more effective vs MEQ than MEQ, I think. They bounce in melee vs heavy infantry a little more than marines mostly due to the TH. Lelith would keep them off wounding on 6s and boost them quite a bit there. The guns are also a lot less flexible than marines. They could maybe do with a small drop, because they're fragile, but not a ton.

Tyel wrote:
Wyches could be worse - they could be Storm Guardians.

But yeah - the rules are soft and I don't think there's a way to make them deliverable.

There's maybe some sort of "Timmy/super casual Play" when your Wyches+Lelith jump out of a Raider and eat some Marines and you feel good about it. But that's a 305 point package. The opportunity cost is considerable - its asking for a bad trade where you eat a 100ish point unit and then get hosed down next turn.

As we've discussed loads of times - its a unit which doesn't scratch MEQ, which means it functionally doesn't work in 40k. "They can kill GEQ" - sure, but GEQ kill them if they try.

And right here? You’re imaging a not-great unit in a vacuum. Where it’s just that one using and it’s transport and booster characters in isolation. That, by your numbers 305 points Vs let’s say 2,000 points with no backup, and absolutely nothing else going on whatsoever.

Hence whilst I don’t dispute Wyches seem weedy? Just *how* weedy is very much FOIP.

That requires experience and accurate reporting.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Hence whilst I don’t dispute Wyches seem weedy? Just *how* weedy is very much FOIP.

That requires experience and accurate reporting.

I sympathise with the FOIP idea - but "light melee" is something which is not unheard of in 40k history, and has generally been bad.

They overcosted my beautiful golden boys, paying for sins of the past.

Sanguinary Guard - 43 pts a model...

Just think it's nuts that Wyches lost Combat Drugs. It's been a defining part of their rules since they were first introduced to the game in 3rd Ed.

It'd be like taking Boneswords or Scything Talons away from Tyranid War... wait bad example...

It'd be like taking Chainaxes away from Khorne Berzerkers.

Mutalith Vortex Beast. Does way too much for its cost.

apogats wrote:
The Valiant only has 6 anti-tank shots if you are counting the meltas. Which ... maybe? They are randomly str 10 for no reason.

They're not the only Melta that does that, I think they're the first step over the Man Portable Melta towards the Thermal Lance on the Knights whichi is S12 ish. Its not randomly for no reason, but you have to look around to see it.