You have to wonder what the heck GW was thinking giving these units useful data cards for 10th Index if they were going to turn around and retire them as soon as the codex came out
I mean, look at the vast difference between the Vanguard Veterans and Assault Marine data cards. The Assault Marines card covers all the different weapons options of the unit while Vanguard Veterans have a generic weapon for the entire squad to the point they forgot what a Power Fist is.
Jesus, the part about running Assault space marines as Venguard is vicious. They gave Venguards horrible rules, so bad no one wants to run them and now they say that people that run RAS should just counts them as that? Brutal. Run bikers for special weapons, with upgrades sgts etc "oh you can replace it as outriders" who are nothing like the squad.
They said as much in the Warhammer Community article. I suppose they will take a chance to sort out any problem rules and keep them in line with any changes they make in the codex rules for Astartes.
I get retiring the finecast stuff, but not scouts and our glassjaw assault hovercrafts that have existed from the earliest editions of the game!
I take it they're just going to Legend chaos bikers at this point.
*maybe we'll get a 'we found an STC' gravbikes this edition?
Karol wrote: Jesus, the part about running Assault space marines as Venguard is vicious. They gave Venguards horrible rules, so bad no one wants to run them and now they say that people that run RAS should just counts them as that? Brutal. Run bikers for special weapons, with upgrades sgts etc "oh you can replace it as outriders" who are nothing like the squad.
Vanguard are almost certainly due a new kit much like sternguard, so their options/rules will likely change at that point.
With regards the bikers, that's not too egregious really. The outrider models fairly represent the core identity of Marine bikes and if the only attachment to the unit of bikes was special weapons, you can still get those elsewhere.
Vanguard are almost certainly due a new kit much like sternguard, so their options/rules will likely change at that point.
With regards the bikers, that's not too egregious really. The outrider models fairly represent the core identity of Marine bikes and if the only attachment to the unit of bikes was special weapons, you can still get those elsewhere.
They have bad rules and limited squad size, they don't have the special weapons or the melee weapons regular bikes have. I am not saying that bikes in 10th are the second coming of Christ for marines, but even they are better, because of the extra gear. 3 dudes with chain swords are never going to be as good as same dudes with plasma and fist. It looks to me like a way to force people to rebuy their armies, while at the same time killing the secondary market, just so new players have to buy the new stuff, because the olds stuff is both no longer produced and is being given venguard style rules.
The scouts are a wierd choice too. People bought them till they were gone from the online store, because sniper scouts are actualy good. Now they are suppose to be removed and replaced with , maybe enliminators, but those are 3 models per box, so to make the unit work sm players would have to wait till GW changes the unit to being 5-10, which again would require a new box of models. That is like, potentialy, waiting for 1-2 editions. No idea when they are going to be doing the BA, SW and DA etc specific units too. It could be very long and I am not sure the game is going to be alive in 10 years.
Vanguard are almost certainly due a new kit much like sternguard, so their options/rules will likely change at that point.
With regards the bikers, that's not too egregious really. The outrider models fairly represent the core identity of Marine bikes and if the only attachment to the unit of bikes was special weapons, you can still get those elsewhere.
They have bad rules and limited squad size, they don't have the special weapons or the melee weapons regular bikes have. I am not saying that bikes in 10th are the second coming of Christ for marines, but even they are better, because of the extra gear. 3 dudes with chain swords are never going to be as good as same dudes with plasma and fist. It looks to me like a way to force people to rebuy their armies, while at the same time killing the secondary market, just so new players have to buy the new stuff, because the olds stuff is both no longer produced and is being given venguard style rules.
The scouts are a wierd choice too. People bought them till they were gone from the online store, because sniper scouts are actualy good. Now they are suppose to be removed and replaced with , maybe enliminators, but those are 3 models per box, so to make the unit work sm players would have to wait till GW changes the unit to being 5-10, which again would require a new box of models. That is like, potentialy, waiting for 1-2 editions. No idea when they are going to be doing the BA, SW and DA etc specific units too. It could be very long and I am not sure the game is going to be alive in 10 years.
Like I said, if you only take bikes for power fists and plasma, maybe it's not the bikes you're attached to.
Regarding scouts, there is a new kit coming for them apparently, so quite possibly a 1:1 and no need for proxies. Failing that, more fool people chasing the meta and panic buying.
DA have a book in Spring and have had the lion released, so I'd put money on them getting a wave shortly, it's quite possible they'll all get 2-3 kits this edition tbh.
Wish they just ripped the band-aid off in 8th edition. It seems we're finally getting a good chunk pulled out now.
Yes sucks for those that care for the old rules, but I think official "count-as" is what they should have done since the introduction of Primaris and the "obvious" replacement they were suppose to be for mini-marines.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m half expecting all of these to have direct replacements in the forthcoming range release.
Bikes feel kind of redundant with the ones from 9th, and we also have the larger Land Speeder things.
Yeah, but the replacements will be in the gaudy chinese knockoff primaris style, with too many nonsensical guns bolted to everything and a hodge-podge of style elements that does not quite fit together. It's a sad day to see classic kits go away, to be replaced with stuff that many find aesthetically inferior. I'm not against Primaris in general, and some sculpts are very nice, but overall the vehicle designs just don't do it for me, and i think a lot of people feel the same.
Yeah, but the replacements will be in the gaudy chinese knockoff primaris style, with too many nonsensical guns bolted to everything
This... the primaris vehicles just seem so inconsistent with everything we've had in the past... especially the turret on the Repulsor... hard to look at that. I'm the guy that has every upgrade glued onto his LRBTs too... and they're not even close to as busy as the repulsor transport
Eh, not all the Primaris vehicles are bad. The Impulsor is fine, the Dreads are great and meaty, the Predator equivalents are.....alright. I'm not big on the hovering aspect of some of those, though.
It's fair to say I'm not pleased by this announcement. In the absence of knowing what release marines will get over the next 12 months... Some of those choices seem to be very strange. Hopefully this means real scout models are coming and jump pack marines are coming... But do we trust that to be true, and furthermore do we trust the new models won't be offensive to look at? Assault intercessors with mkvii style jump packs will mollify me. Basically any alternative style you care to name will only annoy me further.
The loss of classic land speeders will be mourned. I do not like the new ones.
Assuming these units get Legends entries it doesn't hurt me or my collection at all.
If they don't get Legends entries it'll vary by who I'm playing. But many* of the people I play with will have no problem using the last version of the 10e unit card & pts for any such missing units. Well just treat them as honorary Legends.
*Those few who will object will simply have to fight 6 Ctan shards or some other BS.....
I've got quite a bit of those things for my Dark Angels. A huge chunk of my Ravenwing has been gutted, although at least I can use the bikes to proxy as Outriders (although they'll look a bit silly next to real Outriders). I've got like 28 Scouts (both Sniper and regular, including the long OOP Sergeant Naaman) and 6 Scout Bikes that are going the way of the dodo, but I'm not sad about that as the models are awful. I've also got some Assault Marines, including 10 on foot and 5 with jump packs. Plus a Techmarine who is now going to be homeless. I never had any Stalker/Hunters or Tfire Cannons or Ironclad Dreadies, and I've got some classic angry washing machines that are still going to be usable. I'm not sure whether I'll sell a lot of that to make room (and money) for more Primaris stuff or if I'll hang on to it for nostalgia's sake. Damn shame, but I know it's for the best, as the Marine range is bloated to a comical degree and they are still releasing more new stuff for them.
alextroy wrote: You have to wonder what the heck GW was thinking giving these units useful data cards for 10th Index if they were going to turn around and retire them as soon as the codex came out
I mean, look at the vast difference between the Vanguard Veterans and Assault Marine data cards. The Assault Marines card covers all the different weapons options of the unit while Vanguard Veterans have a generic weapon for the entire squad to the point they forgot what a Power Fist is.
That's what I'm thinking. This was really a mistake. Especially for those units that got a fairly good data card in the PDF and are now leaving after those datacards generated some sales.
I'm pretty unaffected. The only things this really impacts for me are:
A.) My assault marines are vanguard vets now (which I usually ran them as already anyway).
B.) My dreads are all just dreads. Which is fine and a change I've kind of been hoping for for a while now.
C.) I have to decide whether or not I still want to build my techmarine or if I want to try to convert him into something cool.
I'm glad to see some of the marine datasheets being cleaned up, but I do feel like this could have been approached a bit better. I would have preferred that GW combine things like outriders and old bikers together into a single sheet instead of presenting it as the old bikers "going away". That, and I'm pretty iffy on the new skimmers for lore reasons.
No, but my dreads don't have those anyway, so selfishly I'm fine.
(The better approach probably would have been to lump the Ironclad gear options in with a consolidated datasheet. It's probably not super broken to let people take, say, a siege drill in combination with a TL lascannon.)
Like I said, if you only take bikes for power fists and plasma, maybe it's not the bikes you're attached to.
What a terribly dismissive thing to say. Imagine for a moment that a player might actually prefer units they can customize to synergize with their army better, or perform certain tasks on the battlefield.
Not to mention the lore-wise capability to fill up to the full 10-man squads, and then combat squad them out per-battle, game-wise splitting the chosen special/CC weapons up to make their particular plans possible.
Or is it not enough to simply like bike models and be able to customize them to fit your army preferences or tactical niche?
My 20.000+ Points of Blood Angels are crying. My Space Wolves will join them soon. My group already decided to play 5th Edition instead. So no new Codex needed, which is good for me and bad for GW - which again is good for me.
No, but my dreads don't have those anyway, so selfishly I'm fine.
(The better approach probably would have been to lump the Ironclad gear options in with a consolidated datasheet. It's probably not super broken to let people take, say, a siege drill in combination with a TL lascannon.)
I've been saying the Box Dreads need to be just one entry. Hell, the Primaris Dreads could definitely be consolidated to one profile as well.
Queue defense of all the insane bespoke rules. MAYBE those three Primaris Dreads don't need three different rules!
Like I said, if you only take bikes for power fists and plasma, maybe it's not the bikes you're attached to.
What a terribly dismissive thing to say. Imagine for a moment that a player might actually prefer units they can customize to synergize with their army better, or perform certain tasks on the battlefield.
Not to mention the lore-wise capability to fill up to the full 10-man squads, and then combat squad them out per-battle, game-wise splitting the chosen special/CC weapons up to make their particular plans possible.
Or is it not enough to simply like bike models and be able to customize them to fit your army preferences or tactical niche?
There will almost certainly be some people out there with more than the 18 bikes and 12(?) Atv's currently allowed and it will suck for them.
If someone said "I like bikes" or "I like the fast moving models that aren't jump" or something, sure. But the complaint was "why would I run outriders when they don't have powerfists and plasma".
You can get power fists and plasma elsewhere, so if you're attached to the weapons/battlefield role, you need a different unit to satisfy that need and they already exist.
I have the same issue with combi weapons when they came out. People weren't sad because their terminators/sternguard were suddenly different, it was because they no longer could deepstrike and delete a unit with plasma/melta.
You can get power fists and plasma elsewhere, so if you're attached to the weapons/battlefield role, you need a different unit to satisfy that need and they already exist.
Where are the fast moving power fists? Fast Moving Plasma lovers were likely already running Inceptors more than Bikes or Assault Marines. There are no fast moving Power Fists without Bikes or Assault Marines - especially now that the Vanguard Vets are Heirloom Weapons all around.
You can get power fists and plasma elsewhere, so if you're attached to the weapons/battlefield role, you need a different unit to satisfy that need and they already exist.
This sums up the entire push behind Primaris and pushing put the old-guard, imo. First/Real/TrueMarines just swapped a few weapons around to adjust to the churn. Primaris requires whole unit changes. You want plasma? There's a unit for that! You want Melta? There's a totally different unit you need to buy for that. You want anti-infantry? Well here's a couple units for that. Oh what's that? Flamers got improved? Oh look! A brand new Marine unit armed entirely with Flamers, look at that!
Whereas a guy like me just swaps a few Heavy/Specials around in each squad, which btw makes so much more sense lore-wise too. Same guy in Power Armor, assigned to the same unit, just a different firearm from the armory as dictated by mission or supply. Not to mention the additional sense of having small arms working in tandem with your squad weapon.
The assult marines were refreshed 2015. Honestly they deserved way more time in the game than this. Especially since they meshed so well with the other kits. I want my running legs damn it!
You can get power fists and plasma elsewhere, so if you're attached to the weapons/battlefield role, you need a different unit to satisfy that need and they already exist.
Where are the fast moving power fists? Fast Moving Plasma lovers were likely already running Inceptors more than Bikes or Assault Marines. There are no fast moving Power Fists without Bikes or Assault Marines - especially now that the Vanguard Vets are Heirloom Weapons all around.
Alternate delivery methods: deep strike (termiantors etc), drop pods (lots of units) or land raider/transport (lots of units).
And again, it's naïve to assume vanguard veterans retain that profile for the codex.
You can get power fists and plasma elsewhere, so if you're attached to the weapons/battlefield role, you need a different unit to satisfy that need and they already exist.
Where are the fast moving power fists? Fast Moving Plasma lovers were likely already running Inceptors more than Bikes or Assault Marines. There are no fast moving Power Fists without Bikes or Assault Marines - especially now that the Vanguard Vets are Heirloom Weapons all around.
Alternate delivery methods: deep strike (termiantors etc), drop pods (lots of units) or land raider/transport (lots of units).
And again, it's naïve to assume vanguard veterans retain that profile for the codex.
Those are not Fast Movers. Nor are they as thematic to say the Blood Angels, Ravenwing, or Raven Guard. This move has a number of timing issues:
The Bait and Switch effect of selling people a whole bunch of sniper scouts and Assault Squads with new better rules right before squatting them.
Ripping the hole in thematic subfactions like Blood Angels, Ravenwing, and Raven Guard.
The move should have been made at the end of the expansion, and with the replacements already in place.
alextroy wrote: You have to wonder what the heck GW was thinking giving these units useful data cards for 10th Index if they were going to turn around and retire them as soon as the codex came out
I mean, look at the vast difference between the Vanguard Veterans and Assault Marine data cards. The Assault Marines card covers all the different weapons options of the unit while Vanguard Veterans have a generic weapon for the entire squad to the point they forgot what a Power Fist is.
That's what I'm thinking. This was really a mistake. Especially for those units that got a fairly good data card in the PDF and are now leaving after those datacards generated some sales.
Really just my Dark Angels affected, but I’ll still use them as legends. Lots of bikes and speeders. I do have 6 outriders, the Chaplain, 3 ATVs and a stormspeeder, so it’s not like I don’t have Primaris equivalents, but I will still want to play my old school DAs without a Primaris in sight.
Ravenguard are all Primaris and Deathwatch are fine (minus the new landspeeder I just built and painted, lol).
At least we have data cards for them and they are decent rules wise (speeders, assault marines, scouts, etc), so we can still use them throughout 10th edition.
You can get power fists and plasma elsewhere, so if you're attached to the weapons/battlefield role, you need a different unit to satisfy that need and they already exist.
Where are the fast moving power fists? Fast Moving Plasma lovers were likely already running Inceptors more than Bikes or Assault Marines. There are no fast moving Power Fists without Bikes or Assault Marines - especially now that the Vanguard Vets are Heirloom Weapons all around.
Alternate delivery methods: deep strike (termiantors etc), drop pods (lots of units) or land raider/transport (lots of units).
And again, it's naïve to assume vanguard veterans retain that profile for the codex.
Those are not Fast Movers. Nor are they as thematic to say the Blood Angels, Ravenwing, or Raven Guard. This move has a number of timing issues:
The Bait and Switch effect of selling people a whole bunch of sniper scouts and Assault Squads with new better rules right before squatting them.
Ripping the hole in thematic subfactions like Blood Angels, Ravenwing, and Raven Guard.
The move should have been made at the end of the expansion, and with the replacements already in place.
I accept the comments that it's hard to get a powerfist moving faster without aid, however again, if people chase the competitive dragon and stock up on units because rules are good, more fool them. Rules are too temporary in this game to go spam max units of something.
Although ultimately I think GW expected Oghram to be a marine victory and likely wanted to show off the new units and mention a "but, as new units come, others must go away" on the stream.
Jesus Dudeface stop with the "le competitive players chasing the dragon" B.S. It's also kind of hilarious to see you call out people with upgrades in squads as WAAC when you're in the other thread semi-justifying GW's free upgrades... which inevitably result in spamming as much free crap as you can spam. There it's fluffy, but I guess here it's competitive to want a special weapon in your squads. Gotcha.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Jesus Dudeface stop with the "le competitive players chasing the dragon" B.S. It's also kind of hilarious to see you call out people with upgrades in squads as WAAC when you're in the other thread semi-justifying GW's free upgrades... which inevitably result in spamming as much free crap as you can spam. There it's fluffy, but I guess here it's competitive to want a special weapon in your squads. Gotcha.
Lovely, quote me where I've said it's "fluffy" to not pay points. I've not argued it's competitive chasing to want special weapons, that's twisting my words. I am saying if you rush out to buy 30 fething scout snipers because of a rules index change, or if you suddenly go re-build all the upgrades known to man onto your squad to max gains then yes, you're likely in that WAAC bracket.
If you don't want to run bikes as outriders purely because you can't boost 18" and fire melta into something and/or charge with a S8+, you didn't care for the bikes, it was a delivery method for some stats/rules you liked.
People who aren't doing that and are upset their games aren't fair due to missing free upgrades, that's entirely fine to be annoyed about and it's not fair.
But please, keep leaving those personal attacks based on flawed logic and inaccurate comments.
Dudeface wrote: If you don't want to run bikes as outriders purely because you can't boost 18" and fire melta into something and/or charge with a S8+, you didn't care for the bikes, it was a delivery method for some stats/rules you liked.
I think you got the reasoning backwards. Fast moving plasma or melta is nothing special, so if you picked bikes as the delivery platform, than chances are you just liked the models or had them lying around. Having a replacement unit that is, in fact, not able to replace what you did with that unit before, and thus not wanting the replacement, is not saying that you cared more for the rules than the unit.
How about we slash all Captain variants and replace him with a 3+ Storm bolter and chainsword wielding guy? Like the one that came out around 4th edition.
"What? Not being able to put him on a bike, Terminator armor or giving him a Jump pack and some weapons is fine, or are you more into the rules than the unit?"
I don't think it makes sense or is fair to paint people with that kind of brush.
If you don't want to run bikes as outriders purely because you can't boost 18" and fire melta into something and/or charge with a S8+, you didn't care for the bikes, it was a delivery method for some stats/rules you liked.
Talk about a strawman. Daaaamn.
I can like bikes. I can also like units which are customizeable to my needs. I can also like units that can make the traditional 10-man squad portrayed in the old school chapter orgs. I can also like units which follow the traditional marine pattern of mostly-regulars-and-a-couple-specials, with upgradeable sergeants.
I can also not like uncustomizeable units locked into S4 spam, with the exception of a butt ugly buggy.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Jesus Dudeface stop with the "le competitive players chasing the dragon" B.S. It's also kind of hilarious to see you call out people with upgrades in squads as WAAC when you're in the other thread semi-justifying GW's free upgrades... which inevitably result in spamming as much free crap as you can spam. There it's fluffy, but I guess here it's competitive to want a special weapon in your squads. Gotcha.
Lovely, quote me where I've said it's "fluffy" to not pay points. I've not argued it's competitive chasing to want special weapons, that's twisting my words. I am saying if you rush out to buy 30 fething scout snipers because of a rules index change, or if you suddenly go re-build all the upgrades known to man onto your squad to max gains then yes, you're likely in that WAAC bracket.
If you don't want to run bikes as outriders purely because you can't boost 18" and fire melta into something and/or charge with a S8+, you didn't care for the bikes, it was a delivery method for some stats/rules you liked.
People who aren't doing that and are upset their games aren't fair due to missing free upgrades, that's entirely fine to be annoyed about and it's not fair.
But please, keep leaving those personal attacks based on flawed logic and inaccurate comments.
You know it is possible to want both a specific unit to be the base of your army, and to want it to be good, so you know you actualy have fun playing the army. Am I to assume that all the people that started biker WS armies were evil power gamers in 8th, then turned in to super casual lore fluff players in 9th, and now in 10th, when bikers are kind of a meh, the same player are again evil WAAC? People are not given w40k models for free, they spend their money and don't like the fact that GW can fist give them months, years or even editions of bad/unfun rules, and then just say they are legending the their army or a big chunk of it, but no worries they can buy another army from GW.
But then again I had a friend who quit in 8th, after over a night he went from being a butt of jokes and getting farmed for easy wins with his IH army made out of two dark empires and some ETB dreadnoughts, to a "refuse to play him he is WAAC" over night. And this was done to him by people who days before were tabling him with their "casual" eldar list, which were casual because instead of 4-5 flyers, they only had 3.
Gutting bikers, Assault squads and Land Speeders was a mistake for GW, and I hope they will regret it. It sends a clear message that firstborn are no longer a part of 40K, and that 30K will be the only place for them in the not so distant future. As someone who has spent two years and hundreds of euros on a new Firstborn army, it feels quite salty and I will not hesitate advocating piracy of all GW printed game material going forward. If they only want to sell me models, they will get their wish.
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Jesus Dudeface stop with the "le competitive players chasing the dragon" B.S. It's also kind of hilarious to see you call out people with upgrades in squads as WAAC when you're in the other thread semi-justifying GW's free upgrades... which inevitably result in spamming as much free crap as you can spam. There it's fluffy, but I guess here it's competitive to want a special weapon in your squads. Gotcha.
Lovely, quote me where I've said it's "fluffy" to not pay points. I've not argued it's competitive chasing to want special weapons, that's twisting my words. I am saying if you rush out to buy 30 fething scout snipers because of a rules index change, or if you suddenly go re-build all the upgrades known to man onto your squad to max gains then yes, you're likely in that WAAC bracket.
If you don't want to run bikes as outriders purely because you can't boost 18" and fire melta into something and/or charge with a S8+, you didn't care for the bikes, it was a delivery method for some stats/rules you liked.
People who aren't doing that and are upset their games aren't fair due to missing free upgrades, that's entirely fine to be annoyed about and it's not fair.
But please, keep leaving those personal attacks based on flawed logic and inaccurate comments.
You know it is possible to want both a specific unit to be the base of your army, and to want it to be good, so you know you actualy have fun playing the army. Am I to assume that all the people that started biker WS armies were evil power gamers in 8th, then turned in to super casual lore fluff players in 9th, and now in 10th, when bikers are kind of a meh, the same player are again evil WAAC? People are not given w40k models for free, they spend their money and don't like the fact that GW can fist give them months, years or even editions of bad/unfun rules, and then just say they are legending the their army or a big chunk of it, but no worries they can buy another army from GW.
But then again I had a friend who quit in 8th, after over a night he went from being a butt of jokes and getting farmed for easy wins with his IH army made out of two dark empires and some ETB dreadnoughts, to a "refuse to play him he is WAAC" over night. And this was done to him by people who days before were tabling him with their "casual" eldar list, which were casual because instead of 4-5 flyers, they only had 3.
Of course its possible, a white scars player doesn't run max size units of bikes for power fists and plasma shots, they run them because that's part of the identity of the faction. They will miss bikes in those numbers because it was a feel of their faction they lost and that's fair to complain about.
With regards financial investment the same is true of a lot of hobbies, game servers get turned off or die, companies stop producing replacement parts for things etc. It's part of the way of the world and whilst it always sucks (as someone who painted an assault squad 2 days ago), you get by and make use of it however you can.
As for your IH friend they just experienced typical Internet hype by some people who can't think for themselves. The same kind of people who would buy 30 sniper scouts based on net hype. There will always be some players who chance into good units they've owned since they were crap or with upgrades that are now the most efficient but they glued them on because they look cool, they don't deserve to be picked on for circumstantial choice.
Yeah, WAAC means "win at ALL costs", not "playing competitively". Cheating, rules lawyering, etc, are WAAC behavior. Building a list based on making the best choices for competitive play is not.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I like bikes. Half of mine have plasma.
Drop the WAAC nonsense Dudeface. It's embarrassing.
ThePaintingOwl wrote:Yeah, WAAC means "win at ALL costs", not "playing competitively". Cheating, rules lawyering, etc, are WAAC behavior. Building a list based on making the best choices for competitive play is not.
Yes, which is why WAAC only entered the conversation as a response to someone else using the term. I initially called it chasing the competitive meta dragon, which is exactly what you're talking about.
WAAC also doesn't have a fixed definition AFAIK but whatever.
Your comments were off-base, you were called on it, and now you're attempting to shift the goalposts.
Like I said: Drop it.
Honestly I feel the topic has been twisted out of context as its gone on, but knowing you wouldn't be so blunt without good cause, I respect that and sorry to anyone offended.
Covenant wrote: My 20.000+ Points of Blood Angels are crying. My Space Wolves will join them soon. My group already decided to play 5th Edition instead. So no new Codex needed, which is good for me and bad for GW - which again is good for me.
This. Future ventures into 40K should be done by taking a step back and not bumbling forwards into Gee-Dubbs newly created mess.
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nemesis464 wrote: Sorry GW I’m still not buying your ugly overgunned overdesigned Primaris vehicles
Correct. Wait a couple of months longer and they will hunt down our beloved rhinos and land raiders too.
You can get power fists and plasma elsewhere, so if you're attached to the weapons/battlefield role, you need a different unit to satisfy that need and they already exist.
Where are the fast moving power fists? Fast Moving Plasma lovers were likely already running Inceptors more than Bikes or Assault Marines. There are no fast moving Power Fists without Bikes or Assault Marines - especially now that the Vanguard Vets are Heirloom Weapons all around.
Alternate delivery methods: deep strike (termiantors etc), drop pods (lots of units) or land raider/transport (lots of units).
And again, it's naïve to assume vanguard veterans retain that profile for the codex.
Those are not Fast Movers. Nor are they as thematic to say the Blood Angels, Ravenwing, or Raven Guard. This move has a number of timing issues:
The Bait and Switch effect of selling people a whole bunch of sniper scouts and Assault Squads with new better rules right before squatting them.
Ripping the hole in thematic subfactions like Blood Angels, Ravenwing, and Raven Guard.
The move should have been made at the end of the expansion, and with the replacements already in place.
This does effect all SM factions. People do like to change up their lists from time to time. I play Iron Hands and would like to include bikes and land speeders too once in a while.
tauist wrote: Gutting bikers, Assault squads and Land Speeders was a mistake for GW, and I hope they will regret it. It sends a clear message that firstborn are no longer a part of 40K, and that 30K will be the only place for them in the not so distant future. As someone who has spent two years and hundreds of euros on a new Firstborn army, it feels quite salty and I will not hesitate advocating piracy of all GW printed game material going forward. If they only want to sell me models, they will get their wish.
Gutting the range is in no way a mistake for GW. They sell hundreds (well, thousands) of different products that need to be manufactured, transported, stored and sold. They can't keep making 20+ year old products and continue to increase the price for the product.
My favorite cereal is S'mores from the late 80's early 90's that was basically Golden Grahams with chocolate swirls and the little marshmallows from hot cocoa packets. It hasn't been made in like 30 years. Now I have to choose between the new disgusting S'mores cereal that's just marshmallow flavored puff balls or the Malt-o-meal Golden Grahams/Cocoa Puffs/marshmallows (my usual go-to now).
Did the removal of one type of cereal from the cereal isle destroy General Mills (or Post or Kellogg or whoever they were)?
If you think this recent change is the "writing on the wall" that the Firstborn are going extinct... You really must be new to consumer products. The very first reveal of a Primaris Marine was the writing on the wall. That was the moment that anyone with a basic knowledge of how GW operates as a business would know to stop purchasing any old Marine kit immediately (unless you wanted one before they're gone). The second the Redemptor was revealed I sighed and said goodbye to the old box dreads. I was sad ... Not because I would have to "replace my dreads" or that my load outs would be unoptimized or something ... All that changed for me is that I will probably never find a buyer for this ancient FW cubed Dreadnaught plasma cannon now.
Many, many firstborn 40k units do not plug into 30k units.
I understand your saltiness but it is just a dusting of sodium. You want salty? Behold the ancient seabed desert wasteland that is my 40k hobby career...
You said 2 years and hundreds of Euros?
Since Sept of last year I have purchased...
An Astra Militarum army made up of all Palanites Enforcers and Subjugators.
3000+ points of Orks
3000+ points of Imperial Fists (all with upgraded shoulders... You only get 6 gravis to a pack and my entire army is gravis... Yes I'm aware of 3D printing, yes I have access to one, yes I have several friends that also have them and offered to make me shoulder pads for free... I like to flex official plastic, sue me)
5000+ of pre built Ad Mech
4500+ points of Sisters of Battle
... And the terrain... God damn this terrain...
Sector Mechanicus stuff (like 3 tables worth)
A massive church made from Imperialis
Nachmund
Ashwastes x 2 and the extended Hab unit (an an extra set of walk ways)
Necromunda underhive Market
Bunch of AoS stuff
I traded some stuff around getting rid of my Votann and Eldar and got Knights, Astra Militarum and Tyranids in return.
I got most of the Fists Painted, the Astra Militarum armies have been mashed together and I bought a Baneblade, and they're all built, the Orks are in sub assemblies waiting for base coat, the Chaos army (that I forgot to mention) is now assembled and I converted and painted my Abaddon.
I was able to do all that because I got the best job I ever had and was making tons of money. I moved into a high end apartment a block away from work, sold my car, and was in the process of constructing my gaming room in my glorious 6th floor apartment in a historic building overlooking the city...
Then I got laid off and tried to get my life in order asap.
Over that last 2 days I've had to pack up everything I own into my friends SUV and move my entire life into a barn in the forests of Maine where I sleep on a cot surrounded by boxes full of models and the sounds of bats.
I'm penniless in a new land. I have thousands of dollars of Warhammer models, enough to run a tournament of 8 players on 4 fully terrained tables...
But I don't know anyone in a few hundred square miles and I don't even have a table now. I don't even have a chair to sit on or faucet to put water in a cup to clean my brushes.
If you're salty... I'm the God of Sodium.
My personal disasters aside, removing the Firstborn is not only a wise move from GW... It is the correct one. Always keep in mind that GWs largest customer pool is women over 50. They buy the cool new things for their kids, boyfriends, husbands etc. And the guys at the store aren't pressured to up their sales of outdated models.
Uptonius wrote: Gutting the range is in no way a mistake for GW. They sell hundreds (well, thousands) of different products that need to be manufactured, transported, stored and sold. They can't keep making 20+ year old products and continue to increase the price for the product.
...
My personal disasters aside, removing the Firstborn is not only a wise move from GW... It is the correct one. Always keep in mind that GWs largest customer pool is women over 50. They buy the cool new things for their kids, boyfriends, husbands etc. And the guys at the store aren't pressured to up their sales of outdated models.
Funny, that is exactly what GW did the past two decades. The massive range refresh for all armies is only something that is happening for the last few years. And as the update of existing models shows, there is a way to sell new stuff at a higher price without making older kits obsolete.
Uptonius wrote: My favorite cereal is S'mores from the late 80's early 90's...
That Uptonius post was a real roller coaster. Did you really not have enough money to sustain you while looking for a job for a couple weeks? Why couldn't you have sold any of the preposterous amount of 40k that you bought?
He misunderstood, when told to invest in a 401k he just heard 40K.
Imagine your emergency fund being tied up in plastic miniatures (enough it sounds like to sustain you for at least 3 months living).
What I dont get and what rubs me the wrong way is, all the other 40K factions get resculpts of their classic units - Eldar, Tyranids, Guard, all got new versions of their classic models with improved proportions.. and what do Space Marines, the most popular 40K faction get?
New line of models I do not want to field, and the shiny new HH2.0 firstborn marine models from 2022 I bought? They get Legended.. and the old 40K models get also dropped. I don't think even Tacs & Devs have much time left for them, by 11th edition, they might get dropped as well.
This is what upsets me the most.
I've read quite a few posts about people quitting 40K entirely because of GW axing firstborn. I'm not sure GW realizes the backlash moving to all primaris yet not allowing HH2.0 models to be used in 40K will create. B&C thread on this subject got locked for 48 hours already, emotions are building up..
Marines have always functioned on a pretty loose model+equipment+configuration = unit premise. The HH2.0 weren't really being sold directly as 40k models, we just understand they're marines and they can fill the role accordingly. I see no reason that shouldn't continue with Primaris, whether that be HH2.0 marines or other firstborn flavors.
LunarSol wrote: Marines have always functioned on a pretty loose model+equipment+configuration = unit premise. The HH2.0 weren't really being sold directly as 40k models, we just understand they're marines and they can fill the role accordingly. I see no reason that shouldn't continue with Primaris, whether that be HH2.0 marines or other firstborn flavors.
I mean, the easiest thing GW could do is just consolidate the many entries available. The fact there's three Primaris Dread entries with different rules on each is honestly laughable.
I don't know about that. Not only do they have different Abilities, they also have entirely different weapon suites as all. In fact, the Twin Storm Bolters on the Redemptor and Ballistus Dreadnaught are the only weapon system the three Primaris Dreadnaughts share in common.
It is easy to just toss out off-hand comments, but sometimes GW is actually doing things that make sense.
tauist wrote: Gutting bikers, Assault squads and Land Speeders was a mistake for GW, and I hope they will regret it. It sends a clear message that firstborn are no longer a part of 40K, and that 30K will be the only place for them in the not so distant future. As someone who has spent two years and hundreds of euros on a new Firstborn army, it feels quite salty and I will not hesitate advocating piracy of all GW printed game material going forward. If they only want to sell me models, they will get their wish.
We've HAD a clear message firstborn are not part of the future. It was a mistake to Squat the squads before the replacement was there. Firstborn Assault and Bike Squads should have stayed a thing in the Codex until the PDF coulda/woulda/shoulda started with the Primaris Replacement already on a datasheet and webstore. The squatting should only happen "between" editions and only after the replacement is in the supply chain.
LunarSol wrote: Marines have always functioned on a pretty loose model+equipment+configuration = unit premise. The HH2.0 weren't really being sold directly as 40k models, we just understand they're marines and they can fill the role accordingly. I see no reason that shouldn't continue with Primaris, whether that be HH2.0 marines or other firstborn flavors.
I mean, the easiest thing GW could do is just consolidate the many entries available. The fact there's three Primaris Dread entries with different rules on each is honestly laughable.
alextroy wrote:I don't know about that. Not only do they have different Abilities, they also have entirely different weapon suites as all. In fact, the Twin Storm Bolters on the Redemptor and Ballistus Dreadnaught are the only weapon system the three Primaris Dreadnaughts share in common.
It is easy to just toss out off-hand comments, but sometimes GW is actually doing things that make sense.
Not to open that can of worms, but they way they do upgrade costs at the moment also makes consolidation of datasheets problematic. That and kit based NMNR restrictions. If you look at the 30k dread page it’s a full sheet, but to covers a huge amount of ground and options. The new chonky primaris dreads could be consolidated if (and it’s a huge if) GW switched their philosophy on rules, prices, and restrictions.
alextroy wrote: I don't know about that. Not only do they have different Abilities, they also have entirely different weapon suites as all. In fact, the Twin Storm Bolters on the Redemptor and Ballistus Dreadnaught are the only weapon system the three Primaris Dreadnaughts share in common.
They don't need to have different abilities. Every unit have bespoke special rules is an awful choice.
alextroy wrote: It is easy to just toss out off-hand comments, but sometimes GW is actually doing things that make sense.
The Redemptor and Ballistus could easily be one entry.
This model is equipped with: Ballistus missile launcher; Ballistus lascannon; twin storm bolter; armoured feet.
Wargear Options:
This model can replace it's Ballistus missile launcher, Ballistus lascannon, and armoured feet with a heavy flamer, heavy onslaught gatling cannons and Redemptor fist and then use the following options:
This model can be equipped with 1 Icarus rocket pod.
This model’s heavy flamer can be replaced with 1 onslaught gatling cannon.
This model’s heavy onslaught gatling cannon can be replaced with 1 macro plasma incinerator.
This model’s twin storm bolter can be replaced with 1 twin fragstorm grenade launcher.
tauist wrote: Gutting bikers, Assault squads and Land Speeders was a mistake for GW, and I hope they will regret it. It sends a clear message that firstborn are no longer a part of 40K, and that 30K will be the only place for them in the not so distant future. As someone who has spent two years and hundreds of euros on a new Firstborn army, it feels quite salty and I will not hesitate advocating piracy of all GW printed game material going forward. If they only want to sell me models, they will get their wish.
We've HAD a clear message firstborn are not part of the future. It was a mistake to Squat the squads before the replacement was there. Firstborn Assault and Bike Squads should have stayed a thing in the Codex until the PDF coulda/woulda/shoulda started with the Primaris Replacement already on a datasheet and webstore. The squatting should only happen "between" editions and only after the replacement is in the supply chain.
Honestly, no. This was the correct choice. Continuing to sell them and holding off until the 'replacements' to reveal they're gone would've have been an utterly garbage move against customers.
I'm disappointed that they're gone, but a 2-3 month (more or less) lead time announcement is the bare minimum to not be complete donkey-caves about replacing products. Continuing to sell things you know you're discontinuing is absolutely anti-consumer.
I understand your saltiness but it is just a dusting of sodium. You want salty? Behold the ancient seabed desert wasteland that is my 40k hobby career...
Spoiler:
You said 2 years and hundreds of Euros?
Since Sept of last year I have purchased...
An Astra Militarum army made up of all Palanites Enforcers and Subjugators.
3000+ points of Orks
3000+ points of Imperial Fists (all with upgraded shoulders... You only get 6 gravis to a pack and my entire army is gravis... Yes I'm aware of 3D printing, yes I have access to one, yes I have several friends that also have them and offered to make me shoulder pads for free... I like to flex official plastic, sue me)
5000+ of pre built Ad Mech
4500+ points of Sisters of Battle
... And the terrain... God damn this terrain...
Sector Mechanicus stuff (like 3 tables worth)
A massive church made from Imperialis
Nachmund
Ashwastes x 2 and the extended Hab unit (an an extra set of walk ways)
Necromunda underhive Market
Bunch of AoS stuff
I traded some stuff around getting rid of my Votann and Eldar and got Knights, Astra Militarum and Tyranids in return.
I got most of the Fists Painted, the Astra Militarum armies have been mashed together and I bought a Baneblade, and they're all built, the Orks are in sub assemblies waiting for base coat, the Chaos army (that I forgot to mention) is now assembled and I converted and painted my Abaddon.
I was able to do all that because I got the best job I ever had and was making tons of money. I moved into a high end apartment a block away from work, sold my car, and was in the process of constructing my gaming room in my glorious 6th floor apartment in a historic building overlooking the city...
Then I got laid off and tried to get my life in order asap.
Over that last 2 days I've had to pack up everything I own into my friends SUV and move my entire life into a barn in the forests of Maine where I sleep on a cot surrounded by boxes full of models and the sounds of bats.
I'm penniless in a new land. I have thousands of dollars of Warhammer models, enough to run a tournament of 8 players on 4 fully terrained tables...
But I don't know anyone in a few hundred square miles and I don't even have a table now. I don't even have a chair to sit on or faucet to put water in a cup to clean my brushes.
If you're salty... I'm the God of Sodium.
Welcome to the real world - where proper financial planning is a thing.
I love my Land Speeders, Bikes, Assault Squads, Scouts, etc.
Happy to still be able to use Tacs and Devs, but it's particularly eggregious to retire Assault Squads if those are sticking around.
Eff Primaris and their horsedung.
My sentiments exactly. I have been looking for dreads, both bikes and Land Speeders for months, and they drop this! Their updates have been underwhelming for me since the Ork update, so I guess that I am going to look at other options. My 3D printing just entered into a new dimension. I was just working on terrain, but now?
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Covenant wrote: My 20.000+ Points of Blood Angels are crying. My Space Wolves will join them soon. My group already decided to play 5th Edition instead. So no new Codex needed, which is good for me and bad for GW - which again is good for me.
Good on you, man. I do endorse this if you can are inclined.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well, you certainly wrote it like modern GW would write it. Disgusting.
Yeah, i don't get why GW gives a default loadout then offers to replace stuff.
Just list it like that :
Big Dreadnought
You can take one of these options :
-Plasma
-Heavy gatling
-Claw + heavy bolter
-Lascannon
You can take one of these options :
-Missile launcher
-Claw + heavy bolter
-Fist + flamer
-Fist + galing
You can take one of these options :
-storm bolters
-Meltas
-Grenade launchers
You can take one of these options :
-Icarus rocket pod
-Icarus stubber
And now i realise how ridiculous it is that they have so many weapons lol. But hey, thats redemtor/brutalis/Ballistus in one profile
Because you end up with a "best" combination that everyone always takes rather than 3 units that can be balanced out due to limited options. Likewise immediately someone would complain they're not all in 1 box.
LunarSol wrote: Marines have always functioned on a pretty loose model+equipment+configuration = unit premise. The HH2.0 weren't really being sold directly as 40k models, we just understand they're marines and they can fill the role accordingly. I see no reason that shouldn't continue with Primaris, whether that be HH2.0 marines or other firstborn flavors.
I mean, the easiest thing GW could do is just consolidate the many entries available. The fact there's three Primaris Dread entries with different rules on each is honestly laughable.
Do you think they should consolidate tactical squads and devestator squads? I mean they're just marines diffrentiated by their weapon types, having differant rules for each is laughable right?
Likewise, what about vanguard veterns and assault marines? Why did we need both? Maybe GW should have consolidated them several editions ago? see! GW getting rid of assault marines is a good thing! they're just consolidating "useless data sheets"
Like honestly, complaining about multiple flavors of primaris dreadnought being seperate while accepting tactical marines, devestators, sternguard veterns etc all being differant? sounds like a double standard to me
LunarSol wrote: Marines have always functioned on a pretty loose model+equipment+configuration = unit premise. The HH2.0 weren't really being sold directly as 40k models, we just understand they're marines and they can fill the role accordingly. I see no reason that shouldn't continue with Primaris, whether that be HH2.0 marines or other firstborn flavors.
I mean, the easiest thing GW could do is just consolidate the many entries available. The fact there's three Primaris Dread entries with different rules on each is honestly laughable.
Do you think they should consolidate tactical squads and devestator squads? I mean they're just marines diffrentiated by their weapon types, having differant rules for each is laughable right?
Likewise, what about vanguard veterns and assault marines? Why did we need both? Maybe GW should have consolidated them several editions ago? see! GW getting rid of assault marines is a good thing! they're just consolidating "useless data sheets"
Like honestly, complaining about multiple flavors of primaris dreadnought being seperate while accepting tactical marines, devestators, sternguard veterns etc all being differant? sounds like a double standard to me
You're purposely evading unit roles. Why DO you need the three separate entries for the Primaris Dreads? Assault Marines and Assault Intercessors are the same role, yes or no?
Queue the "but they have different bespoke rules!!!1!". Yeah, MAYBE, just MAYBE, they don't need different bespoke rules!
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well, you certainly wrote it like modern GW would write it. Disgusting.
Yeah, i don't get why GW gives a default loadout then offers to replace stuff.
Just list it like that :
Big Dreadnought
You can take one of these options :
-Plasma
-Heavy gatling
-Claw + heavy bolter
-Lascannon
You can take one of these options :
-Missile launcher
-Claw + heavy bolter
-Fist + flamer
-Fist + galing
You can take one of these options :
-storm bolters
-Meltas
-Grenade launchers
You can take one of these options :
-Icarus rocket pod
-Icarus stubber
And now i realise how ridiculous it is that they have so many weapons lol. But hey, thats redemtor/brutalis/Ballistus in one profile
Because you end up with a "best" combination that everyone always takes rather than 3 units that can be balanced out due to limited options. Likewise immediately someone would complain they're not all in 1 box.
Dreads never had all options in one box to begin with. That's a failure on GW with their terrible sprue design.
Dudeface wrote: Because you end up with a "best" combination that everyone always takes rather than 3 units that can be balanced out due to limited options. Likewise immediately someone would complain they're not all in 1 box.
Hogwash.
Dreadnoughts had variable arm options for nearly every edition, and people took just about everything possible (other than Twin-HBs, really).
More importantly, if there is a "best" combination, then that's why you have variable points levels for options, rather than one-price-to-rule-them-all. Duh!
I love my Land Speeders, Bikes, Assault Squads, Scouts, etc.
Happy to still be able to use Tacs and Devs, but it's particularly eggregious to retire Assault Squads if those are sticking around.
Eff Primaris and their horsedung.
My sentiments exactly. I have been looking for dreads, both bikes and Land Speeders for months, and they drop this! Their updates have been underwhelming for me since the Ork update, so I guess that I am going to look at other options. My 3D printing just entered into a new dimension. I was just working on terrain, but now?
Out of curiosity I popped by my FLGS to see if they had any more Assault Squads. They said they had 4 up until their retirement was announced, and they were gone by the end of that day. They apologized for not having any more to sell, and not being able to get more.
Then they suggested 3d printing my own if I wanted more. . My FLGS knows wassup.
You people & your wish for consolidation....
You don't even understand why there's multiple datasheets.
It's so that GW can sell you more kits/models.
In a game with a limit of 3 for most units there's GW has no reason to want to sell you ONLY 3 primaris dreadnoughts. They DO have an interest in selling you 3 redemptors, 3 brutalis, & 3 balistus though....
LunarSol wrote: Marines have always functioned on a pretty loose model+equipment+configuration = unit premise. The HH2.0 weren't really being sold directly as 40k models, we just understand they're marines and they can fill the role accordingly. I see no reason that shouldn't continue with Primaris, whether that be HH2.0 marines or other firstborn flavors.
I mean, the easiest thing GW could do is just consolidate the many entries available. The fact there's three Primaris Dread entries with different rules on each is honestly laughable.
Do you think they should consolidate tactical squads and devestator squads? I mean they're just marines diffrentiated by their weapon types, having differant rules for each is laughable right?
No, because one is Troops/Battleline and one is not, and they're oufitted pretty differently.
Likewise, what about vanguard veterns and assault marines? Why did we need both? Maybe GW should have consolidated them several editions ago? see! GW getting rid of assault marines is a good thing! they're just consolidating "useless data sheets"
Consolidating those would be ideal for me, honestly. I'd prefer to have a unit with a bunch of options that was upgradeable to Veteran status.
Like honestly, complaining about multiple flavors of primaris dreadnought being seperate while accepting tactical marines, devestators, sternguard veterns etc all being differant? sounds like a double standard to me
The old school Dreadnought was just fine as a single choice with various arm swaps. The new one can follow the same pattern. While we're at it, consolidate Predators again.
Fold in the Ironclad and it's options while we're at it. It's fine.
Fewer Datasheets with more options per datasheet is ideal, imo.
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ccs wrote: You people & your wish for consolidation....
You don't even understand why there's multiple datasheets.
It's so that GW can sell you more kits/models.
In a game with a limit of 3 for most units there's GW has no reason to want to sell you ONLY 3 primaris dreadnoughts. They DO have an interest in selling you 3 redemptors, 3 brutalis, & 3 balistus though....
Oh yeah. We get it. I just think the game is better off without it.
Better yet, revisit the rule of 3. It's pretty funky that as loyalists I can field an army with 9 Land Raiders while Chaos can only run 3, just because I have variants on the loyalist side.
Likewise immediately someone would complain they're not all in 1 box.
fair, obviously i'd have made that change from the start and make the dread one option.
I'm not sure every other unit distilling down having a best choice is a valid reason to make redemptors do the same.
All I had in my head immediately was air dropped macro plasma + missile + twin multimelta and thinking "that sounds dumb".
The 3 being split out means you make a choice of whether you want ranged, melee or a balance without just immediately hyper specialising or cost cutting on the bit you don't care for.
Regards the helbrute, I'm not sure it's a problem at this point but again, you either get 2x melee or 2x ranged and rarely a mix in my experience, forcing a middle option might make you see more of the build options.
I'm not sure every other unit distilling down having a best choice is a valid reason to make redemptors do the same.
All I had in my head immediately was air dropped macro plasma + missile + twin multimelta and thinking "that sounds dumb".
The 3 being split out means you make a choice of whether you want ranged, melee or a balance without just immediately hyper specialising or cost cutting on the bit you don't care for.
Regards the helbrute, I'm not sure it's a problem at this point but again, you either get 2x melee or 2x ranged and rarely a mix in my experience, forcing a middle option might make you see more of the build options.
helbrute is mostly ran as a a hybrid now actually, since the ML+Las got "nerfed" with the edition change and that twin melee only matters if youre double fisting it
I'm not sure every other unit distilling down having a best choice is a valid reason to make redemptors do the same.
All I had in my head immediately was air dropped macro plasma + missile + twin multimelta and thinking "that sounds dumb".
You can air drop a bunch of Plasma already in the form of Inter-whatevers. Or good-ol-fashioned Devastators can bring a bunch of hurt. SM history is full of air dropped firepower potency, so not sure this would be a problem. Just give it the appropriate points cost for the wargear.
I'm not sure every other unit distilling down having a best choice is a valid reason to make redemptors do the same.
All I had in my head immediately was air dropped macro plasma + missile + twin multimelta and thinking "that sounds dumb".
You can air drop a bunch of Plasma already in the form of Inter-whatevers. Or good-ol-fashioned Devastators can bring a bunch of hurt. SM history is full of air dropped firepower potency, so not sure this would be a problem. Just give it the appropriate points cost for the wargear.
Honestly, I find it amazing what some people will do to defend what GW does to make something dumb like redundant unit entries or PL work.
I'm not sure every other unit distilling down having a best choice is a valid reason to make redemptors do the same.
All I had in my head immediately was air dropped macro plasma + missile + twin multimelta and thinking "that sounds dumb".
You can air drop a bunch of Plasma already in the form of Inter-whatevers. Or good-ol-fashioned Devastators can bring a bunch of hurt. SM history is full of air dropped firepower potency, so not sure this would be a problem. Just give it the appropriate points cost for the wargear.
Honestly, I find it amazing what some people will do to defend what GW does to make something dumb like redundant unit entries or PL work.
I find it amazing how often you chip in with "yup, it's gak" and no other content.
I know you could give it appropriate points but the issue is you currently can't just combine "best guns" into a gun platform nor keep melee as cheap as possible. The restricted loadouts actually force you to make a choice on a variant. Appreciate that likely isn't a common opinion but I'm fine with that.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well, you certainly wrote it like modern GW would write it. Disgusting.
Yeah, i don't get why GW gives a default loadout then offers to replace stuff.
Just list it like that :
Big Dreadnought
You can take one of these options :
-Plasma
-Heavy gatling
-Claw + heavy bolter
-Lascannon
You can take one of these options :
-Missile launcher
-Claw + heavy bolter
-Fist + flamer
-Fist + galing
You can take one of these options :
-storm bolters
-Meltas
-Grenade launchers
You can take one of these options :
-Icarus rocket pod
-Icarus stubber
And now i realise how ridiculous it is that they have so many weapons lol. But hey, thats redemtor/brutalis/Ballistus in one profile
Because you end up with a "best" combination that everyone always takes rather than 3 units that can be balanced out due to limited options. Likewise immediately someone would complain they're not all in 1 box.
Garbage arguments are garbage. What's the "best" loadout for a backline dread? A frontline dread? One intended for deep strike purposes?
There is no "best loadout". Different armies/lists need their dreadnoughts to accomplish different goals. Different purposes. Price accordingly. This isn't complicated. Gw even has a separate ruleset that accounts for this.
The 10th edition method for pricing units and their options is garbage. The end.
I'm not sure why anyone would be making the argument that GW has to do away with Firstborn Marines because of the need to sell Primaris marines.
The decision to make Primaris marines was GW's own. Nobody stepped in and told them they had to create an entirely new line of Marines. They chose to do that.
The first 'Firstborn' was sold, I think, in 1986. GW has been making new Space Marine models for thirty years before producing a Primaris space marine. They did new models. They added new weapons. They revised the armor. They increased the size of the model. They introduced new units. They did all that and Space Marines were the big draw the whole damn time, without introducing 'new marines' that obligated them to retire certain types of 'old marines'. They retired models, and molds, and even units (like Space Marines on Jetbikes).
GW chose to release new marine models as some new, better, previously unseen variant of Marines that wasn't backwards compatible with loads of the space marine armory. They could have released Mk 8 armor. They could have released Mk 8 and Mk 9 and Mk 10 armor, just like they released Mk 6 armor, then later released Mk 7. They could have released larger scaled marines just like they had done repeatedly over the course of the company's existence. They chose not to do that. They chose to launch a model refresh that necessitated retiring swathes of their model line.
You don't get to justify GW's choice to retire certain marines after releasing Primaris as 'well, they have to do this after the release of Primaris marines when GW was the one who chose to release them. If I choose to drive my car up on the sidewalk, I can't explain away hitting the streetlamp by saying "Well, it was that or hit those pedestrians..."
I don't personally have any issues with playing games that use Legends, so it doesn't have a lot of effect on me---I take that back.
I have had to slog through pages of interminable writing, from one author after another, addressing ad nauseum, the 'in-universe' consequences of the Primaris initiative, whether that author really wanted to address that in their novel or not. Now, I'm presumably going to have to slog through many perfectly fine BL authors having to explain why all of a sudden, there's no jet fuel for the Jump packs, and no run-flat tires for normal Space Marine bikes, and why all the scouts now have this sort of armor rather than that sort. Ugh.
I was running my Vanguard Veteran squad as assault marines because they no longer have an option for twin lightning claws. So if I have models with jump packs and twin lightning claws, what am I supposed to run them as?
Toofast wrote: I was running my Vanguard Veteran squad as assault marines because they no longer have an option for twin lightning claws. So if I have models with jump packs and twin lightning claws, what am I supposed to run them as?
Run them as Vanguard Veterans. They all have Bolt Pistols and Heriloom Weapons regardless of what the model is showing.
And yes, GW should be embarrassed to have published the VV datacard.
Remember, kiddos! You will like Primaris, you will love buy their models, you will worship their lore, you will forget about firstborn, and GW's gonna make sure of that!
Da Butcha wrote: I'm not sure why anyone would be making the argument that GW has to do away with Firstborn Marines because of the need to sell Primaris marines.
The decision to make Primaris marines was GW's own. Nobody stepped in and told them they had to create an entirely new line of Marines. They chose to do that.
I may have told them to do that. I wasn't buying new kits unless I really liked the new kit over the old kit for reasons.
The first 'Firstborn' was sold, I think, in 1986. GW has been making new Space Marine models for thirty years before producing a Primaris space marine. They did new models. They added new weapons. They revised the armor. They increased the size of the model. They introduced new units. They did all that and Space Marines were the big draw the whole damn time, without introducing 'new marines' that obligated them to retire certain types of 'old marines'. They retired models, and molds, and even units (like Space Marines on Jetbikes).
GW chose to release new marine models as some new, better, previously unseen variant of Marines that wasn't backwards compatible with loads of the space marine armory. They could have released Mk 8 armor. They could have released Mk 8 and Mk 9 and Mk 10 armor, just like they released Mk 6 armor, then later released Mk 7. They could have released larger scaled marines just like they had done repeatedly over the course of the company's existence. They chose not to do that. They chose to launch a model refresh that necessitated retiring swathes of their model line.
They did release MK 8 armor. I assume it was a business decision. They'd reached saturation for what a new kit could do. This move was (almost) entirely to replace the whole kit and kaboodle with new minis. I'm kind of shocked they openly suggested proxying the old ones, but I guess that's low risk for them. People will hate running Firstborn as Primaris as the size difference can be jarring. That's why I think GW will be stupid enough to drag their feet on the Terminator Variant Kits now that they just changed the scale on them.
You don't get to justify GW's choice to retire certain marines after releasing Primaris as 'well, they have to do this after the release of Primaris marines when GW was the one who chose to release them. If I choose to drive my car up on the sidewalk, I can't explain away hitting the streetlamp by saying "Well, it was that or hit those pedestrians..."
I don't personally have any issues with playing games that use Legends, so it doesn't have a lot of effect on me---I take that back.
I have had to slog through pages of interminable writing, from one author after another, addressing ad nauseum, the 'in-universe' consequences of the Primaris initiative, whether that author really wanted to address that in their novel or not. Now, I'm presumably going to have to slog through many perfectly fine BL authors having to explain why all of a sudden, there's no jet fuel for the Jump packs, and no run-flat tires for normal Space Marine bikes, and why all the scouts now have this sort of armor rather than that sort. Ugh.
Toofast wrote: I was running my Vanguard Veteran squad as assault marines because they no longer have an option for twin lightning claws. So if I have models with jump packs and twin lightning claws, what am I supposed to run them as?
Run them as Vanguard Veterans. They all have Bolt Pistols and Heriloom Weapons regardless of what the model is showing.
And yes, GW should be embarrassed to have published the VV datacard.
They can still swap the pistol. Because if there's anything you picked Vanguard Vets with Jump Packs for, it was the pistol.
Toofast wrote: I was running my Vanguard Veteran squad as assault marines because they no longer have an option for twin lightning claws. So if I have models with jump packs and twin lightning claws, what am I supposed to run them as?
Run them as Vanguard Veterans. They all have Bolt Pistols and Heriloom Weapons regardless of what the model is showing.
And yes, GW should be embarrassed to have published the VV datacard.
Somehow I don't think that's going to fly at a GT, which is what I'm currently painting this army up for. In casual games I can use them but that doesn't mean much to me.
Toofast wrote: I was running my Vanguard Veteran squad as assault marines because they no longer have an option for twin lightning claws. So if I have models with jump packs and twin lightning claws, what am I supposed to run them as?
Run them as Vanguard Veterans. They all have Bolt Pistols and Heriloom Weapons regardless of what the model is showing.
And yes, GW should be embarrassed to have published the VV datacard.
Somehow I don't think that's going to fly at a GT, which is what I'm currently painting this army up for. In casual games I can use them but that doesn't mean much to me.
That should 100% fly at a GT if they're the official models or clearly converted to be, its not your fault the choice doesn't exist.
I love my Land Speeders, Bikes, Assault Squads, Scouts, etc.
Happy to still be able to use Tacs and Devs, but it's particularly eggregious to retire Assault Squads if those are sticking around.
Eff Primaris and their horsedung.
My sentiments exactly. I have been looking for dreads, both bikes and Land Speeders for months, and they drop this! Their updates have been underwhelming for me since the Ork update, so I guess that I am going to look at other options. My 3D printing just entered into a new dimension. I was just working on terrain, but now?
Out of curiosity I popped by my FLGS to see if they had any more Assault Squads. They said they had 4 up until their retirement was announced, and they were gone by the end of that day. They apologized for not having any more to sell, and not being able to get more.
Then they suggested 3d printing my own if I wanted more. . My FLGS knows wassup.
Great minds think alike I guess. I expect that in the next few years the FLGS will have a 3D printing service in house if they want to survive. I guess that you and I will be hanging around in the Old Edition thread a lot more:
On a more general note, Gee Dubs still have all of these up as "Last Time to Buy" for about two weeks and all of them still show as being sold out here in the US. Why even bother with putting them up as a last chance to buy when they don't even have them available for sale? I would rather have them rip off the band aid and just say that they are no longer selling them.
Toofast wrote: Somehow I don't think that's going to fly at a GT, which is what I'm currently painting this army up for. In casual games I can use them but that doesn't mean much to me.
That should 100% fly at a GT if they're the official models or clearly converted to be, its not your fault the choice doesn't exist.
My experience has been that formal tournaments don't have a lot of sympathy for models rendered useless or obsolete. Churn is the name of the game.
See also: Being required to rebase old models to whatever is current, even though the rules themselves don't say anything about base size, and appropriate base sizes aren't even defined for many units.
Toofast wrote: Somehow I don't think that's going to fly at a GT, which is what I'm currently painting this army up for. In casual games I can use them but that doesn't mean much to me.
That should 100% fly at a GT if they're the official models or clearly converted to be, its not your fault the choice doesn't exist.
My experience has been that formal tournaments don't have a lot of sympathy for models rendered useless or obsolete. Churn is the name of the game.
See also: Being required to rebase old models to whatever is current, even though the rules themselves don't say anything about base size, and appropriate base sizes aren't even defined for many units.
I suspect they have more so when GW themselves say use Assault Marines as Vanguard Vets.
Toofast wrote: I was running my Vanguard Veteran squad as assault marines because they no longer have an option for twin lightning claws. So if I have models with jump packs and twin lightning claws, what am I supposed to run them as?
Run them as Vanguard Veterans. They all have Bolt Pistols and Heriloom Weapons regardless of what the model is showing.
And yes, GW should be embarrassed to have published the VV datacard.
Somehow I don't think that's going to fly at a GT, which is what I'm currently painting this army up for. In casual games I can use them but that doesn't mean much to me.
Well that's gw's official stance. How much own house rules that gt has then? And why they pretend to run 40k tournament when it's not pure 40k then?
Toofast wrote: I was running my Vanguard Veteran squad as assault marines because they no longer have an option for twin lightning claws. So if I have models with jump packs and twin lightning claws, what am I supposed to run them as?
Run them as Vanguard Veterans. They all have Bolt Pistols and Heriloom Weapons regardless of what the model is showing.
And yes, GW should be embarrassed to have published the VV datacard.
Somehow I don't think that's going to fly at a GT, which is what I'm currently painting this army up for. In casual games I can use them but that doesn't mean much to me.
That should 100% fly at a GT if they're the official models or clearly converted to be, its not your fault the choice doesn't exist.
WYSIWYG means that a model equipped with an heirloom weapon and bolt pistol would have a lightning claw on 1 arm and a bolt pistol on the other. I don't feel like sticking them in the freezer to break an arm off and separate the shoulder pad. GW said "you can use them as vanguard vets now". GW did not say "a lightning claw now counts as a bolt pistol".
Toofast wrote: I was running my Vanguard Veteran squad as assault marines because they no longer have an option for twin lightning claws. So if I have models with jump packs and twin lightning claws, what am I supposed to run them as?
Run them as Vanguard Veterans. They all have Bolt Pistols and Heriloom Weapons regardless of what the model is showing.
And yes, GW should be embarrassed to have published the VV datacard.
Somehow I don't think that's going to fly at a GT, which is what I'm currently painting this army up for. In casual games I can use them but that doesn't mean much to me.
That should 100% fly at a GT if they're the official models or clearly converted to be, its not your fault the choice doesn't exist.
WYSIWYG means that a model equipped with an heirloom weapon and bolt pistol would have a lightning claw on 1 arm and a bolt pistol on the other. I don't feel like sticking them in the freezer to break an arm off and separate the shoulder pad. GW said "you can use them as vanguard vets now". GW did not say "a lightning claw now counts as a bolt pistol".
If you can find a TO that won't allow them to run as heirloom weapon and boltpistol I'd be amazed. It's the base loadout and given 2 melee weapons literally isn't an option you're forced to default back to the base gear unless otherwise noted.
WYSIWYG means that a model equipped with an heirloom weapon and bolt pistol would have a lightning claw on 1 arm and a bolt pistol on the other. I don't feel like sticking them in the freezer to break an arm off and separate the shoulder pad. GW said "you can use them as vanguard vets now". GW did not say "a lightning claw now counts as a bolt pistol".
Bolt Pistols are easily the most common piece of equipment that models carry but don't have on their model. That's going to be just fine.
