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2023/07/26 17:13:40
Subject: Re:Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
That Uptonius post was a real roller coaster. Did you really not have enough money to sustain you while looking for a job for a couple weeks? Why couldn't you have sold any of the preposterous amount of 40k that you bought?
...so many questions...
2023/07/26 17:34:53
Subject: Re:Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
He misunderstood, when told to invest in a 401k he just heard 40K.
Imagine your emergency fund being tied up in plastic miniatures (enough it sounds like to sustain you for at least 3 months living).
2023/07/26 17:37:03
Subject: Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
What I dont get and what rubs me the wrong way is, all the other 40K factions get resculpts of their classic units - Eldar, Tyranids, Guard, all got new versions of their classic models with improved proportions.. and what do Space Marines, the most popular 40K faction get?
New line of models I do not want to field, and the shiny new HH2.0 firstborn marine models from 2022 I bought? They get Legended.. and the old 40K models get also dropped. I don't think even Tacs & Devs have much time left for them, by 11th edition, they might get dropped as well.
This is what upsets me the most.
I've read quite a few posts about people quitting 40K entirely because of GW axing firstborn. I'm not sure GW realizes the backlash moving to all primaris yet not allowing HH2.0 models to be used in 40K will create. B&C thread on this subject got locked for 48 hours already, emotions are building up..
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2023/07/26 17:44:23
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
2023/07/26 17:46:05
Subject: Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
Marines have always functioned on a pretty loose model+equipment+configuration = unit premise. The HH2.0 weren't really being sold directly as 40k models, we just understand they're marines and they can fill the role accordingly. I see no reason that shouldn't continue with Primaris, whether that be HH2.0 marines or other firstborn flavors.
2023/07/26 18:03:45
Subject: Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
LunarSol wrote: Marines have always functioned on a pretty loose model+equipment+configuration = unit premise. The HH2.0 weren't really being sold directly as 40k models, we just understand they're marines and they can fill the role accordingly. I see no reason that shouldn't continue with Primaris, whether that be HH2.0 marines or other firstborn flavors.
I mean, the easiest thing GW could do is just consolidate the many entries available. The fact there's three Primaris Dread entries with different rules on each is honestly laughable.
2023/07/27 04:10:36
Subject: Re:Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
I don't know about that. Not only do they have different Abilities, they also have entirely different weapon suites as all. In fact, the Twin Storm Bolters on the Redemptor and Ballistus Dreadnaught are the only weapon system the three Primaris Dreadnaughts share in common.
It is easy to just toss out off-hand comments, but sometimes GW is actually doing things that make sense.
2023/07/27 06:32:48
Subject: Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
tauist wrote: Gutting bikers, Assault squads and Land Speeders was a mistake for GW, and I hope they will regret it. It sends a clear message that firstborn are no longer a part of 40K, and that 30K will be the only place for them in the not so distant future. As someone who has spent two years and hundreds of euros on a new Firstborn army, it feels quite salty and I will not hesitate advocating piracy of all GW printed game material going forward. If they only want to sell me models, they will get their wish.
We've HAD a clear message firstborn are not part of the future. It was a mistake to Squat the squads before the replacement was there. Firstborn Assault and Bike Squads should have stayed a thing in the Codex until the PDF coulda/woulda/shoulda started with the Primaris Replacement already on a datasheet and webstore. The squatting should only happen "between" editions and only after the replacement is in the supply chain.
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
2023/07/27 10:24:06
Subject: Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
LunarSol wrote: Marines have always functioned on a pretty loose model+equipment+configuration = unit premise. The HH2.0 weren't really being sold directly as 40k models, we just understand they're marines and they can fill the role accordingly. I see no reason that shouldn't continue with Primaris, whether that be HH2.0 marines or other firstborn flavors.
I mean, the easiest thing GW could do is just consolidate the many entries available. The fact there's three Primaris Dread entries with different rules on each is honestly laughable.
alextroy wrote:I don't know about that. Not only do they have different Abilities, they also have entirely different weapon suites as all. In fact, the Twin Storm Bolters on the Redemptor and Ballistus Dreadnaught are the only weapon system the three Primaris Dreadnaughts share in common.
It is easy to just toss out off-hand comments, but sometimes GW is actually doing things that make sense.
Not to open that can of worms, but they way they do upgrade costs at the moment also makes consolidation of datasheets problematic. That and kit based NMNR restrictions. If you look at the 30k dread page it’s a full sheet, but to covers a huge amount of ground and options. The new chonky primaris dreads could be consolidated if (and it’s a huge if) GW switched their philosophy on rules, prices, and restrictions.
alextroy wrote: I don't know about that. Not only do they have different Abilities, they also have entirely different weapon suites as all. In fact, the Twin Storm Bolters on the Redemptor and Ballistus Dreadnaught are the only weapon system the three Primaris Dreadnaughts share in common.
They don't need to have different abilities. Every unit have bespoke special rules is an awful choice.
alextroy wrote: It is easy to just toss out off-hand comments, but sometimes GW is actually doing things that make sense.
The Redemptor and Ballistus could easily be one entry.
This model is equipped with: Ballistus missile launcher; Ballistus lascannon; twin storm bolter; armoured feet.
Wargear Options:
This model can replace it's Ballistus missile launcher, Ballistus lascannon, and armoured feet with a heavy flamer, heavy onslaught gatling cannons and Redemptor fist and then use the following options:
This model can be equipped with 1 Icarus rocket pod.
This model’s heavy flamer can be replaced with 1 onslaught gatling cannon.
This model’s heavy onslaught gatling cannon can be replaced with 1 macro plasma incinerator.
This model’s twin storm bolter can be replaced with 1 twin fragstorm grenade launcher.
I guess that wasn't that hard
2023/07/27 15:04:25
Subject: Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
tauist wrote: Gutting bikers, Assault squads and Land Speeders was a mistake for GW, and I hope they will regret it. It sends a clear message that firstborn are no longer a part of 40K, and that 30K will be the only place for them in the not so distant future. As someone who has spent two years and hundreds of euros on a new Firstborn army, it feels quite salty and I will not hesitate advocating piracy of all GW printed game material going forward. If they only want to sell me models, they will get their wish.
We've HAD a clear message firstborn are not part of the future. It was a mistake to Squat the squads before the replacement was there. Firstborn Assault and Bike Squads should have stayed a thing in the Codex until the PDF coulda/woulda/shoulda started with the Primaris Replacement already on a datasheet and webstore. The squatting should only happen "between" editions and only after the replacement is in the supply chain.
Honestly, no. This was the correct choice. Continuing to sell them and holding off until the 'replacements' to reveal they're gone would've have been an utterly garbage move against customers.
I'm disappointed that they're gone, but a 2-3 month (more or less) lead time announcement is the bare minimum to not be complete donkey-caves about replacing products. Continuing to sell things you know you're discontinuing is absolutely anti-consumer.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/27 15:19:21
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2023/07/27 15:47:54
Subject: Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
I understand your saltiness but it is just a dusting of sodium. You want salty? Behold the ancient seabed desert wasteland that is my 40k hobby career...
Spoiler:
You said 2 years and hundreds of Euros?
Since Sept of last year I have purchased...
An Astra Militarum army made up of all Palanites Enforcers and Subjugators.
3000+ points of Orks
3000+ points of Imperial Fists (all with upgraded shoulders... You only get 6 gravis to a pack and my entire army is gravis... Yes I'm aware of 3D printing, yes I have access to one, yes I have several friends that also have them and offered to make me shoulder pads for free... I like to flex official plastic, sue me)
5000+ of pre built Ad Mech
4500+ points of Sisters of Battle
... And the terrain... God damn this terrain...
Sector Mechanicus stuff (like 3 tables worth)
A massive church made from Imperialis
Nachmund
Ashwastes x 2 and the extended Hab unit (an an extra set of walk ways)
Necromunda underhive Market
Bunch of AoS stuff
I traded some stuff around getting rid of my Votann and Eldar and got Knights, Astra Militarum and Tyranids in return.
I got most of the Fists Painted, the Astra Militarum armies have been mashed together and I bought a Baneblade, and they're all built, the Orks are in sub assemblies waiting for base coat, the Chaos army (that I forgot to mention) is now assembled and I converted and painted my Abaddon.
I was able to do all that because I got the best job I ever had and was making tons of money. I moved into a high end apartment a block away from work, sold my car, and was in the process of constructing my gaming room in my glorious 6th floor apartment in a historic building overlooking the city...
Then I got laid off and tried to get my life in order asap.
Over that last 2 days I've had to pack up everything I own into my friends SUV and move my entire life into a barn in the forests of Maine where I sleep on a cot surrounded by boxes full of models and the sounds of bats.
I'm penniless in a new land. I have thousands of dollars of Warhammer models, enough to run a tournament of 8 players on 4 fully terrained tables...
But I don't know anyone in a few hundred square miles and I don't even have a table now. I don't even have a chair to sit on or faucet to put water in a cup to clean my brushes.
If you're salty... I'm the God of Sodium.
Welcome to the real world - where proper financial planning is a thing.
2023/07/27 16:30:27
Subject: Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
I love my Land Speeders, Bikes, Assault Squads, Scouts, etc.
Happy to still be able to use Tacs and Devs, but it's particularly eggregious to retire Assault Squads if those are sticking around.
Eff Primaris and their horsedung.
My sentiments exactly. I have been looking for dreads, both bikes and Land Speeders for months, and they drop this! Their updates have been underwhelming for me since the Ork update, so I guess that I am going to look at other options. My 3D printing just entered into a new dimension. I was just working on terrain, but now?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Covenant wrote: My 20.000+ Points of Blood Angels are crying. My Space Wolves will join them soon. My group already decided to play 5th Edition instead. So no new Codex needed, which is good for me and bad for GW - which again is good for me.
Good on you, man. I do endorse this if you can are inclined.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/07/27 16:42:13
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well, you certainly wrote it like modern GW would write it. Disgusting.
Yeah, i don't get why GW gives a default loadout then offers to replace stuff.
Just list it like that :
Big Dreadnought
You can take one of these options :
-Plasma
-Heavy gatling
-Claw + heavy bolter
-Lascannon
You can take one of these options :
-Missile launcher
-Claw + heavy bolter
-Fist + flamer
-Fist + galing
You can take one of these options :
-storm bolters
-Meltas
-Grenade launchers
You can take one of these options :
-Icarus rocket pod
-Icarus stubber
And now i realise how ridiculous it is that they have so many weapons lol. But hey, thats redemtor/brutalis/Ballistus in one profile
Because you end up with a "best" combination that everyone always takes rather than 3 units that can be balanced out due to limited options. Likewise immediately someone would complain they're not all in 1 box.
2023/07/27 20:46:44
Subject: Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
LunarSol wrote: Marines have always functioned on a pretty loose model+equipment+configuration = unit premise. The HH2.0 weren't really being sold directly as 40k models, we just understand they're marines and they can fill the role accordingly. I see no reason that shouldn't continue with Primaris, whether that be HH2.0 marines or other firstborn flavors.
I mean, the easiest thing GW could do is just consolidate the many entries available. The fact there's three Primaris Dread entries with different rules on each is honestly laughable.
Do you think they should consolidate tactical squads and devestator squads? I mean they're just marines diffrentiated by their weapon types, having differant rules for each is laughable right?
Likewise, what about vanguard veterns and assault marines? Why did we need both? Maybe GW should have consolidated them several editions ago? see! GW getting rid of assault marines is a good thing! they're just consolidating "useless data sheets"
Like honestly, complaining about multiple flavors of primaris dreadnought being seperate while accepting tactical marines, devestators, sternguard veterns etc all being differant? sounds like a double standard to me
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2023/07/27 21:17:30
Subject: Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
LunarSol wrote: Marines have always functioned on a pretty loose model+equipment+configuration = unit premise. The HH2.0 weren't really being sold directly as 40k models, we just understand they're marines and they can fill the role accordingly. I see no reason that shouldn't continue with Primaris, whether that be HH2.0 marines or other firstborn flavors.
I mean, the easiest thing GW could do is just consolidate the many entries available. The fact there's three Primaris Dread entries with different rules on each is honestly laughable.
Do you think they should consolidate tactical squads and devestator squads? I mean they're just marines diffrentiated by their weapon types, having differant rules for each is laughable right?
Likewise, what about vanguard veterns and assault marines? Why did we need both? Maybe GW should have consolidated them several editions ago? see! GW getting rid of assault marines is a good thing! they're just consolidating "useless data sheets"
Like honestly, complaining about multiple flavors of primaris dreadnought being seperate while accepting tactical marines, devestators, sternguard veterns etc all being differant? sounds like a double standard to me
You're purposely evading unit roles. Why DO you need the three separate entries for the Primaris Dreads? Assault Marines and Assault Intercessors are the same role, yes or no?
Queue the "but they have different bespoke rules!!!1!". Yeah, MAYBE, just MAYBE, they don't need different bespoke rules!
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well, you certainly wrote it like modern GW would write it. Disgusting.
Yeah, i don't get why GW gives a default loadout then offers to replace stuff.
Just list it like that :
Big Dreadnought
You can take one of these options :
-Plasma
-Heavy gatling
-Claw + heavy bolter
-Lascannon
You can take one of these options :
-Missile launcher
-Claw + heavy bolter
-Fist + flamer
-Fist + galing
You can take one of these options :
-storm bolters
-Meltas
-Grenade launchers
You can take one of these options :
-Icarus rocket pod
-Icarus stubber
And now i realise how ridiculous it is that they have so many weapons lol. But hey, thats redemtor/brutalis/Ballistus in one profile
Because you end up with a "best" combination that everyone always takes rather than 3 units that can be balanced out due to limited options. Likewise immediately someone would complain they're not all in 1 box.
Dreads never had all options in one box to begin with. That's a failure on GW with their terrible sprue design.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/27 21:18:15
2023/07/27 23:33:25
Subject: Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
Dudeface wrote: Because you end up with a "best" combination that everyone always takes rather than 3 units that can be balanced out due to limited options. Likewise immediately someone would complain they're not all in 1 box.
Hogwash.
Dreadnoughts had variable arm options for nearly every edition, and people took just about everything possible (other than Twin-HBs, really).
More importantly, if there is a "best" combination, then that's why you have variable points levels for options, rather than one-price-to-rule-them-all. Duh!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/27 23:34:00
I love my Land Speeders, Bikes, Assault Squads, Scouts, etc.
Happy to still be able to use Tacs and Devs, but it's particularly eggregious to retire Assault Squads if those are sticking around.
Eff Primaris and their horsedung.
My sentiments exactly. I have been looking for dreads, both bikes and Land Speeders for months, and they drop this! Their updates have been underwhelming for me since the Ork update, so I guess that I am going to look at other options. My 3D printing just entered into a new dimension. I was just working on terrain, but now?
Out of curiosity I popped by my FLGS to see if they had any more Assault Squads. They said they had 4 up until their retirement was announced, and they were gone by the end of that day. They apologized for not having any more to sell, and not being able to get more.
Then they suggested 3d printing my own if I wanted more. . My FLGS knows wassup.
You people & your wish for consolidation....
You don't even understand why there's multiple datasheets.
It's so that GW can sell you more kits/models.
In a game with a limit of 3 for most units there's GW has no reason to want to sell you ONLY 3 primaris dreadnoughts. They DO have an interest in selling you 3 redemptors, 3 brutalis, & 3 balistus though....
2023/07/28 00:33:05
Subject: Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
LunarSol wrote: Marines have always functioned on a pretty loose model+equipment+configuration = unit premise. The HH2.0 weren't really being sold directly as 40k models, we just understand they're marines and they can fill the role accordingly. I see no reason that shouldn't continue with Primaris, whether that be HH2.0 marines or other firstborn flavors.
I mean, the easiest thing GW could do is just consolidate the many entries available. The fact there's three Primaris Dread entries with different rules on each is honestly laughable.
Do you think they should consolidate tactical squads and devestator squads? I mean they're just marines diffrentiated by their weapon types, having differant rules for each is laughable right?
No, because one is Troops/Battleline and one is not, and they're oufitted pretty differently.
Likewise, what about vanguard veterns and assault marines? Why did we need both? Maybe GW should have consolidated them several editions ago? see! GW getting rid of assault marines is a good thing! they're just consolidating "useless data sheets"
Consolidating those would be ideal for me, honestly. I'd prefer to have a unit with a bunch of options that was upgradeable to Veteran status.
Like honestly, complaining about multiple flavors of primaris dreadnought being seperate while accepting tactical marines, devestators, sternguard veterns etc all being differant? sounds like a double standard to me
The old school Dreadnought was just fine as a single choice with various arm swaps. The new one can follow the same pattern. While we're at it, consolidate Predators again.
Fold in the Ironclad and it's options while we're at it. It's fine.
Fewer Datasheets with more options per datasheet is ideal, imo.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ccs wrote: You people & your wish for consolidation....
You don't even understand why there's multiple datasheets.
It's so that GW can sell you more kits/models.
In a game with a limit of 3 for most units there's GW has no reason to want to sell you ONLY 3 primaris dreadnoughts. They DO have an interest in selling you 3 redemptors, 3 brutalis, & 3 balistus though....
Oh yeah. We get it. I just think the game is better off without it.
Better yet, revisit the rule of 3. It's pretty funky that as loyalists I can field an army with 9 Land Raiders while Chaos can only run 3, just because I have variants on the loyalist side.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/07/28 00:38:33
Likewise immediately someone would complain they're not all in 1 box.
fair, obviously i'd have made that change from the start and make the dread one option.
I'm not sure every other unit distilling down having a best choice is a valid reason to make redemptors do the same.
All I had in my head immediately was air dropped macro plasma + missile + twin multimelta and thinking "that sounds dumb".
The 3 being split out means you make a choice of whether you want ranged, melee or a balance without just immediately hyper specialising or cost cutting on the bit you don't care for.
Regards the helbrute, I'm not sure it's a problem at this point but again, you either get 2x melee or 2x ranged and rarely a mix in my experience, forcing a middle option might make you see more of the build options.
0007/12/28 17:03:14
Subject: Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
I'm not sure every other unit distilling down having a best choice is a valid reason to make redemptors do the same.
All I had in my head immediately was air dropped macro plasma + missile + twin multimelta and thinking "that sounds dumb".
The 3 being split out means you make a choice of whether you want ranged, melee or a balance without just immediately hyper specialising or cost cutting on the bit you don't care for.
Regards the helbrute, I'm not sure it's a problem at this point but again, you either get 2x melee or 2x ranged and rarely a mix in my experience, forcing a middle option might make you see more of the build options.
helbrute is mostly ran as a a hybrid now actually, since the ML+Las got "nerfed" with the edition change and that twin melee only matters if youre double fisting it
2023/07/28 17:09:19
Subject: Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
I'm not sure every other unit distilling down having a best choice is a valid reason to make redemptors do the same.
All I had in my head immediately was air dropped macro plasma + missile + twin multimelta and thinking "that sounds dumb".
You can air drop a bunch of Plasma already in the form of Inter-whatevers. Or good-ol-fashioned Devastators can bring a bunch of hurt. SM history is full of air dropped firepower potency, so not sure this would be a problem. Just give it the appropriate points cost for the wargear.
I'm not sure every other unit distilling down having a best choice is a valid reason to make redemptors do the same.
All I had in my head immediately was air dropped macro plasma + missile + twin multimelta and thinking "that sounds dumb".
You can air drop a bunch of Plasma already in the form of Inter-whatevers. Or good-ol-fashioned Devastators can bring a bunch of hurt. SM history is full of air dropped firepower potency, so not sure this would be a problem. Just give it the appropriate points cost for the wargear.
Honestly, I find it amazing what some people will do to defend what GW does to make something dumb like redundant unit entries or PL work.
2023/07/28 18:02:43
Subject: Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
I'm not sure every other unit distilling down having a best choice is a valid reason to make redemptors do the same.
All I had in my head immediately was air dropped macro plasma + missile + twin multimelta and thinking "that sounds dumb".
You can air drop a bunch of Plasma already in the form of Inter-whatevers. Or good-ol-fashioned Devastators can bring a bunch of hurt. SM history is full of air dropped firepower potency, so not sure this would be a problem. Just give it the appropriate points cost for the wargear.
Honestly, I find it amazing what some people will do to defend what GW does to make something dumb like redundant unit entries or PL work.
I find it amazing how often you chip in with "yup, it's gak" and no other content.
I know you could give it appropriate points but the issue is you currently can't just combine "best guns" into a gun platform nor keep melee as cheap as possible. The restricted loadouts actually force you to make a choice on a variant. Appreciate that likely isn't a common opinion but I'm fine with that.
2023/07/29 01:31:28
Subject: Waving good-bye (sorta) to old friends... update moves many many units to legends
H.B.M.C. wrote: Well, you certainly wrote it like modern GW would write it. Disgusting.
Yeah, i don't get why GW gives a default loadout then offers to replace stuff.
Just list it like that :
Big Dreadnought
You can take one of these options :
-Plasma
-Heavy gatling
-Claw + heavy bolter
-Lascannon
You can take one of these options :
-Missile launcher
-Claw + heavy bolter
-Fist + flamer
-Fist + galing
You can take one of these options :
-storm bolters
-Meltas
-Grenade launchers
You can take one of these options :
-Icarus rocket pod
-Icarus stubber
And now i realise how ridiculous it is that they have so many weapons lol. But hey, thats redemtor/brutalis/Ballistus in one profile
Because you end up with a "best" combination that everyone always takes rather than 3 units that can be balanced out due to limited options. Likewise immediately someone would complain they're not all in 1 box.
Garbage arguments are garbage. What's the "best" loadout for a backline dread? A frontline dread? One intended for deep strike purposes?
There is no "best loadout". Different armies/lists need their dreadnoughts to accomplish different goals. Different purposes. Price accordingly. This isn't complicated. Gw even has a separate ruleset that accounts for this.
The 10th edition method for pricing units and their options is garbage. The end.
Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 16k+ 
4k 
4k Points
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