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Dudeface wrote:

Like I said, if you only take bikes for power fists and plasma, maybe it's not the bikes you're attached to.

What a terribly dismissive thing to say. Imagine for a moment that a player might actually prefer units they can customize to synergize with their army better, or perform certain tasks on the battlefield.

Not to mention the lore-wise capability to fill up to the full 10-man squads, and then combat squad them out per-battle, game-wise splitting the chosen special/CC weapons up to make their particular plans possible.

Or is it not enough to simply like bike models and be able to customize them to fit your army preferences or tactical niche?

My 20.000+ Points of Blood Angels are crying. My Space Wolves will join them soon. My group already decided to play 5th Edition instead. So no new Codex needed, which is good for me and bad for GW - which again is good for me.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
B.) My dreads are all just dreads. Which is fine and a change I've kind of been hoping for for a while now.

Do the current Dread rules allow for:

1. Siege Drills.
2. Chainfists.
3. Hurricane Bolters.
4. HK missiles.

No, but my dreads don't have those anyway, so selfishly I'm fine.

(The better approach probably would have been to lump the Ironclad gear options in with a consolidated datasheet. It's probably not super broken to let people take, say, a siege drill in combination with a TL lascannon.)

I've been saying the Box Dreads need to be just one entry. Hell, the Primaris Dreads could definitely be consolidated to one profile as well.

Queue defense of all the insane bespoke rules. MAYBE those three Primaris Dreads don't need three different rules!

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Like I said, if you only take bikes for power fists and plasma, maybe it's not the bikes you're attached to.

What a terribly dismissive thing to say. Imagine for a moment that a player might actually prefer units they can customize to synergize with their army better, or perform certain tasks on the battlefield.

Not to mention the lore-wise capability to fill up to the full 10-man squads, and then combat squad them out per-battle, game-wise splitting the chosen special/CC weapons up to make their particular plans possible.

Or is it not enough to simply like bike models and be able to customize them to fit your army preferences or tactical niche?

There will almost certainly be some people out there with more than the 18 bikes and 12(?) Atv's currently allowed and it will suck for them.

If someone said "I like bikes" or "I like the fast moving models that aren't jump" or something, sure. But the complaint was "why would I run outriders when they don't have powerfists and plasma".

You can get power fists and plasma elsewhere, so if you're attached to the weapons/battlefield role, you need a different unit to satisfy that need and they already exist.

I have the same issue with combi weapons when they came out. People weren't sad because their terminators/sternguard were suddenly different, it was because they no longer could deepstrike and delete a unit with plasma/melta.

Dudeface wrote:

You can get power fists and plasma elsewhere, so if you're attached to the weapons/battlefield role, you need a different unit to satisfy that need and they already exist.

Where are the fast moving power fists? Fast Moving Plasma lovers were likely already running Inceptors more than Bikes or Assault Marines. There are no fast moving Power Fists without Bikes or Assault Marines - especially now that the Vanguard Vets are Heirloom Weapons all around.

Sorry GW I’m still not buying your ugly overgunned overdesigned Primaris vehicles

Dudeface wrote:

You can get power fists and plasma elsewhere, so if you're attached to the weapons/battlefield role, you need a different unit to satisfy that need and they already exist.

This sums up the entire push behind Primaris and pushing put the old-guard, imo. First/Real/TrueMarines just swapped a few weapons around to adjust to the churn. Primaris requires whole unit changes. You want plasma? There's a unit for that! You want Melta? There's a totally different unit you need to buy for that. You want anti-infantry? Well here's a couple units for that. Oh what's that? Flamers got improved? Oh look! A brand new Marine unit armed entirely with Flamers, look at that!

Whereas a guy like me just swaps a few Heavy/Specials around in each squad, which btw makes so much more sense lore-wise too. Same guy in Power Armor, assigned to the same unit, just a different firearm from the armory as dictated by mission or supply. Not to mention the additional sense of having small arms working in tandem with your squad weapon.

The assult marines were refreshed 2015. Honestly they deserved way more time in the game than this. Especially since they meshed so well with the other kits. I want my running legs damn it!

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

You can get power fists and plasma elsewhere, so if you're attached to the weapons/battlefield role, you need a different unit to satisfy that need and they already exist.

Where are the fast moving power fists? Fast Moving Plasma lovers were likely already running Inceptors more than Bikes or Assault Marines. There are no fast moving Power Fists without Bikes or Assault Marines - especially now that the Vanguard Vets are Heirloom Weapons all around.

Alternate delivery methods: deep strike (termiantors etc), drop pods (lots of units) or land raider/transport (lots of units).

And again, it's naïve to assume vanguard veterans retain that profile for the codex.

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

You can get power fists and plasma elsewhere, so if you're attached to the weapons/battlefield role, you need a different unit to satisfy that need and they already exist.

Where are the fast moving power fists? Fast Moving Plasma lovers were likely already running Inceptors more than Bikes or Assault Marines. There are no fast moving Power Fists without Bikes or Assault Marines - especially now that the Vanguard Vets are Heirloom Weapons all around.

Alternate delivery methods: deep strike (termiantors etc), drop pods (lots of units) or land raider/transport (lots of units).

And again, it's naïve to assume vanguard veterans retain that profile for the codex.

Those are not Fast Movers. Nor are they as thematic to say the Blood Angels, Ravenwing, or Raven Guard. This move has a number of timing issues:

The Bait and Switch effect of selling people a whole bunch of sniper scouts and Assault Squads with new better rules right before squatting them.

Ripping the hole in thematic subfactions like Blood Angels, Ravenwing, and Raven Guard.

The move should have been made at the end of the expansion, and with the replacements already in place.

Breton wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
You have to wonder what the heck GW was thinking giving these units useful data cards for 10th Index if they were going to turn around and retire them as soon as the codex came out

I mean, look at the vast difference between the Vanguard Veterans and Assault Marine data cards. The Assault Marines card covers all the different weapons options of the unit while Vanguard Veterans have a generic weapon for the entire squad to the point they forgot what a Power Fist is.

That's what I'm thinking. This was really a mistake. Especially for those units that got a fairly good data card in the PDF and are now leaving after those datacards generated some sales.

You just told reason for why...

Really just my Dark Angels affected, but I’ll still use them as legends. Lots of bikes and speeders. I do have 6 outriders, the Chaplain, 3 ATVs and a stormspeeder, so it’s not like I don’t have Primaris equivalents, but I will still want to play my old school DAs without a Primaris in sight.
Ravenguard are all Primaris and Deathwatch are fine (minus the new landspeeder I just built and painted, lol).
At least we have data cards for them and they are decent rules wise (speeders, assault marines, scouts, etc), so we can still use them throughout 10th edition.

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

You can get power fists and plasma elsewhere, so if you're attached to the weapons/battlefield role, you need a different unit to satisfy that need and they already exist.

Where are the fast moving power fists? Fast Moving Plasma lovers were likely already running Inceptors more than Bikes or Assault Marines. There are no fast moving Power Fists without Bikes or Assault Marines - especially now that the Vanguard Vets are Heirloom Weapons all around.

Alternate delivery methods: deep strike (termiantors etc), drop pods (lots of units) or land raider/transport (lots of units).

And again, it's naïve to assume vanguard veterans retain that profile for the codex.

Those are not Fast Movers. Nor are they as thematic to say the Blood Angels, Ravenwing, or Raven Guard. This move has a number of timing issues:

The Bait and Switch effect of selling people a whole bunch of sniper scouts and Assault Squads with new better rules right before squatting them.

Ripping the hole in thematic subfactions like Blood Angels, Ravenwing, and Raven Guard.

The move should have been made at the end of the expansion, and with the replacements already in place.

I accept the comments that it's hard to get a powerfist moving faster without aid, however again, if people chase the competitive dragon and stock up on units because rules are good, more fool them. Rules are too temporary in this game to go spam max units of something.

Although ultimately I think GW expected Oghram to be a marine victory and likely wanted to show off the new units and mention a "but, as new units come, others must go away" on the stream.

Jesus Dudeface stop with the "le competitive players chasing the dragon" B.S. It's also kind of hilarious to see you call out people with upgrades in squads as WAAC when you're in the other thread semi-justifying GW's free upgrades... which inevitably result in spamming as much free crap as you can spam. There it's fluffy, but I guess here it's competitive to want a special weapon in your squads. Gotcha.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Jesus Dudeface stop with the "le competitive players chasing the dragon" B.S. It's also kind of hilarious to see you call out people with upgrades in squads as WAAC when you're in the other thread semi-justifying GW's free upgrades... which inevitably result in spamming as much free crap as you can spam. There it's fluffy, but I guess here it's competitive to want a special weapon in your squads. Gotcha.

Lovely, quote me where I've said it's "fluffy" to not pay points. I've not argued it's competitive chasing to want special weapons, that's twisting my words. I am saying if you rush out to buy 30 fething scout snipers because of a rules index change, or if you suddenly go re-build all the upgrades known to man onto your squad to max gains then yes, you're likely in that WAAC bracket.

If you don't want to run bikes as outriders purely because you can't boost 18" and fire melta into something and/or charge with a S8+, you didn't care for the bikes, it was a delivery method for some stats/rules you liked.

People who aren't doing that and are upset their games aren't fair due to missing free upgrades, that's entirely fine to be annoyed about and it's not fair.

But please, keep leaving those personal attacks based on flawed logic and inaccurate comments.

Dudeface wrote:
If you don't want to run bikes as outriders purely because you can't boost 18" and fire melta into something and/or charge with a S8+, you didn't care for the bikes, it was a delivery method for some stats/rules you liked.

I think you got the reasoning backwards. Fast moving plasma or melta is nothing special, so if you picked bikes as the delivery platform, than chances are you just liked the models or had them lying around. Having a replacement unit that is, in fact, not able to replace what you did with that unit before, and thus not wanting the replacement, is not saying that you cared more for the rules than the unit.

How about we slash all Captain variants and replace him with a 3+ Storm bolter and chainsword wielding guy? Like the one that came out around 4th edition.
"What? Not being able to put him on a bike, Terminator armor or giving him a Jump pack and some weapons is fine, or are you more into the rules than the unit?"

I don't think it makes sense or is fair to paint people with that kind of brush.

Dudeface wrote:

If you don't want to run bikes as outriders purely because you can't boost 18" and fire melta into something and/or charge with a S8+, you didn't care for the bikes, it was a delivery method for some stats/rules you liked.

Talk about a strawman. Daaaamn.

I can like bikes. I can also like units which are customizeable to my needs. I can also like units that can make the traditional 10-man squad portrayed in the old school chapter orgs. I can also like units which follow the traditional marine pattern of mostly-regulars-and-a-couple-specials, with upgradeable sergeants.

I can also not like uncustomizeable units locked into S4 spam, with the exception of a butt ugly buggy.

I'm very happy I don't play with people that look at legends units like they're fething lepers.

This just furthers my disinterest in modern "40k" and reinvigorates my desire to play more 30k OR just say feth it and play 2nd...


The arbitrary restrictions and removal of random gak is quite possibly the most moronic thing they've done recently.

Dudeface wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Jesus Dudeface stop with the "le competitive players chasing the dragon" B.S. It's also kind of hilarious to see you call out people with upgrades in squads as WAAC when you're in the other thread semi-justifying GW's free upgrades... which inevitably result in spamming as much free crap as you can spam. There it's fluffy, but I guess here it's competitive to want a special weapon in your squads. Gotcha.

Lovely, quote me where I've said it's "fluffy" to not pay points. I've not argued it's competitive chasing to want special weapons, that's twisting my words. I am saying if you rush out to buy 30 fething scout snipers because of a rules index change, or if you suddenly go re-build all the upgrades known to man onto your squad to max gains then yes, you're likely in that WAAC bracket.

If you don't want to run bikes as outriders purely because you can't boost 18" and fire melta into something and/or charge with a S8+, you didn't care for the bikes, it was a delivery method for some stats/rules you liked.

People who aren't doing that and are upset their games aren't fair due to missing free upgrades, that's entirely fine to be annoyed about and it's not fair.

But please, keep leaving those personal attacks based on flawed logic and inaccurate comments.

You know it is possible to want both a specific unit to be the base of your army, and to want it to be good, so you know you actualy have fun playing the army. Am I to assume that all the people that started biker WS armies were evil power gamers in 8th, then turned in to super casual lore fluff players in 9th, and now in 10th, when bikers are kind of a meh, the same player are again evil WAAC? People are not given w40k models for free, they spend their money and don't like the fact that GW can fist give them months, years or even editions of bad/unfun rules, and then just say they are legending the their army or a big chunk of it, but no worries they can buy another army from GW.

But then again I had a friend who quit in 8th, after over a night he went from being a butt of jokes and getting farmed for easy wins with his IH army made out of two dark empires and some ETB dreadnoughts, to a "refuse to play him he is WAAC" over night. And this was done to him by people who days before were tabling him with their "casual" eldar list, which were casual because instead of 4-5 flyers, they only had 3.

Gutting bikers, Assault squads and Land Speeders was a mistake for GW, and I hope they will regret it. It sends a clear message that firstborn are no longer a part of 40K, and that 30K will be the only place for them in the not so distant future. As someone who has spent two years and hundreds of euros on a new Firstborn army, it feels quite salty and I will not hesitate advocating piracy of all GW printed game material going forward. If they only want to sell me models, they will get their wish.

Karol wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Jesus Dudeface stop with the "le competitive players chasing the dragon" B.S. It's also kind of hilarious to see you call out people with upgrades in squads as WAAC when you're in the other thread semi-justifying GW's free upgrades... which inevitably result in spamming as much free crap as you can spam. There it's fluffy, but I guess here it's competitive to want a special weapon in your squads. Gotcha.

Lovely, quote me where I've said it's "fluffy" to not pay points. I've not argued it's competitive chasing to want special weapons, that's twisting my words. I am saying if you rush out to buy 30 fething scout snipers because of a rules index change, or if you suddenly go re-build all the upgrades known to man onto your squad to max gains then yes, you're likely in that WAAC bracket.

If you don't want to run bikes as outriders purely because you can't boost 18" and fire melta into something and/or charge with a S8+, you didn't care for the bikes, it was a delivery method for some stats/rules you liked.

People who aren't doing that and are upset their games aren't fair due to missing free upgrades, that's entirely fine to be annoyed about and it's not fair.

But please, keep leaving those personal attacks based on flawed logic and inaccurate comments.

You know it is possible to want both a specific unit to be the base of your army, and to want it to be good, so you know you actualy have fun playing the army. Am I to assume that all the people that started biker WS armies were evil power gamers in 8th, then turned in to super casual lore fluff players in 9th, and now in 10th, when bikers are kind of a meh, the same player are again evil WAAC? People are not given w40k models for free, they spend their money and don't like the fact that GW can fist give them months, years or even editions of bad/unfun rules, and then just say they are legending the their army or a big chunk of it, but no worries they can buy another army from GW.

But then again I had a friend who quit in 8th, after over a night he went from being a butt of jokes and getting farmed for easy wins with his IH army made out of two dark empires and some ETB dreadnoughts, to a "refuse to play him he is WAAC" over night. And this was done to him by people who days before were tabling him with their "casual" eldar list, which were casual because instead of 4-5 flyers, they only had 3.

Of course its possible, a white scars player doesn't run max size units of bikes for power fists and plasma shots, they run them because that's part of the identity of the faction. They will miss bikes in those numbers because it was a feel of their faction they lost and that's fair to complain about.

With regards financial investment the same is true of a lot of hobbies, game servers get turned off or die, companies stop producing replacement parts for things etc. It's part of the way of the world and whilst it always sucks (as someone who painted an assault squad 2 days ago), you get by and make use of it however you can.

As for your IH friend they just experienced typical Internet hype by some people who can't think for themselves. The same kind of people who would buy 30 sniper scouts based on net hype. There will always be some players who chance into good units they've owned since they were crap or with upgrades that are now the most efficient but they glued them on because they look cool, they don't deserve to be picked on for circumstantial choice.

I like bikes. Half of mine have plasma.

Drop the WAAC nonsense Dudeface. It's embarrassing.

Yeah, WAAC means "win at ALL costs", not "playing competitively". Cheating, rules lawyering, etc, are WAAC behavior. Building a list based on making the best choices for competitive play is not.

Anybody want to buy a badly painted first born marine company?

H.B.M.C. wrote:I like bikes. Half of mine have plasma.

Drop the WAAC nonsense Dudeface. It's embarrassing.

ThePaintingOwl wrote:Yeah, WAAC means "win at ALL costs", not "playing competitively". Cheating, rules lawyering, etc, are WAAC behavior. Building a list based on making the best choices for competitive play is not.

Yes, which is why WAAC only entered the conversation as a response to someone else using the term. I initially called it chasing the competitive meta dragon, which is exactly what you're talking about.

WAAC also doesn't have a fixed definition AFAIK but whatever.

Stop dodging.

Your comments were off-base, you were called on it, and now you're attempting to shift the goalposts.

Like I said: Drop it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Stop dodging.

Your comments were off-base, you were called on it, and now you're attempting to shift the goalposts.

Like I said: Drop it.

Honestly I feel the topic has been twisted out of context as its gone on, but knowing you wouldn't be so blunt without good cause, I respect that and sorry to anyone offended.

Covenant wrote:
My 20.000+ Points of Blood Angels are crying. My Space Wolves will join them soon. My group already decided to play 5th Edition instead. So no new Codex needed, which is good for me and bad for GW - which again is good for me.

This. Future ventures into 40K should be done by taking a step back and not bumbling forwards into Gee-Dubbs newly created mess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nemesis464 wrote:
Sorry GW I’m still not buying your ugly overgunned overdesigned Primaris vehicles

Correct. Wait a couple of months longer and they will hunt down our beloved rhinos and land raiders too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

You can get power fists and plasma elsewhere, so if you're attached to the weapons/battlefield role, you need a different unit to satisfy that need and they already exist.

Where are the fast moving power fists? Fast Moving Plasma lovers were likely already running Inceptors more than Bikes or Assault Marines. There are no fast moving Power Fists without Bikes or Assault Marines - especially now that the Vanguard Vets are Heirloom Weapons all around.

Alternate delivery methods: deep strike (termiantors etc), drop pods (lots of units) or land raider/transport (lots of units).

And again, it's naïve to assume vanguard veterans retain that profile for the codex.

Those are not Fast Movers. Nor are they as thematic to say the Blood Angels, Ravenwing, or Raven Guard. This move has a number of timing issues:

The Bait and Switch effect of selling people a whole bunch of sniper scouts and Assault Squads with new better rules right before squatting them.

Ripping the hole in thematic subfactions like Blood Angels, Ravenwing, and Raven Guard.

The move should have been made at the end of the expansion, and with the replacements already in place.

This does effect all SM factions. People do like to change up their lists from time to time. I play Iron Hands and would like to include bikes and land speeders too once in a while.

 tauist wrote:
Gutting bikers, Assault squads and Land Speeders was a mistake for GW, and I hope they will regret it. It sends a clear message that firstborn are no longer a part of 40K, and that 30K will be the only place for them in the not so distant future. As someone who has spent two years and hundreds of euros on a new Firstborn army, it feels quite salty and I will not hesitate advocating piracy of all GW printed game material going forward. If they only want to sell me models, they will get their wish.

Gutting the range is in no way a mistake for GW. They sell hundreds (well, thousands) of different products that need to be manufactured, transported, stored and sold. They can't keep making 20+ year old products and continue to increase the price for the product.
My favorite cereal is S'mores from the late 80's early 90's that was basically Golden Grahams with chocolate swirls and the little marshmallows from hot cocoa packets. It hasn't been made in like 30 years. Now I have to choose between the new disgusting S'mores cereal that's just marshmallow flavored puff balls or the Malt-o-meal Golden Grahams/Cocoa Puffs/marshmallows (my usual go-to now).
Did the removal of one type of cereal from the cereal isle destroy General Mills (or Post or Kellogg or whoever they were)?

If you think this recent change is the "writing on the wall" that the Firstborn are going extinct... You really must be new to consumer products. The very first reveal of a Primaris Marine was the writing on the wall. That was the moment that anyone with a basic knowledge of how GW operates as a business would know to stop purchasing any old Marine kit immediately (unless you wanted one before they're gone). The second the Redemptor was revealed I sighed and said goodbye to the old box dreads. I was sad ... Not because I would have to "replace my dreads" or that my load outs would be unoptimized or something ... All that changed for me is that I will probably never find a buyer for this ancient FW cubed Dreadnaught plasma cannon now.

Many, many firstborn 40k units do not plug into 30k units.

I understand your saltiness but it is just a dusting of sodium. You want salty? Behold the ancient seabed desert wasteland that is my 40k hobby career...

You said 2 years and hundreds of Euros?
Since Sept of last year I have purchased...
An Astra Militarum army made up of all Palanites Enforcers and Subjugators.
3000+ points of Orks
3000+ points of Imperial Fists (all with upgraded shoulders... You only get 6 gravis to a pack and my entire army is gravis... Yes I'm aware of 3D printing, yes I have access to one, yes I have several friends that also have them and offered to make me shoulder pads for free... I like to flex official plastic, sue me)
5000+ of pre built Ad Mech
4500+ points of Sisters of Battle
... And the terrain... God damn this terrain...
Sector Mechanicus stuff (like 3 tables worth)
A massive church made from Imperialis
Nachmund
Ashwastes x 2 and the extended Hab unit (an an extra set of walk ways)
Necromunda underhive Market
Bunch of AoS stuff
I traded some stuff around getting rid of my Votann and Eldar and got Knights, Astra Militarum and Tyranids in return.
I got most of the Fists Painted, the Astra Militarum armies have been mashed together and I bought a Baneblade, and they're all built, the Orks are in sub assemblies waiting for base coat, the Chaos army (that I forgot to mention) is now assembled and I converted and painted my Abaddon.
I was able to do all that because I got the best job I ever had and was making tons of money. I moved into a high end apartment a block away from work, sold my car, and was in the process of constructing my gaming room in my glorious 6th floor apartment in a historic building overlooking the city...
Then I got laid off and tried to get my life in order asap.

Over that last 2 days I've had to pack up everything I own into my friends SUV and move my entire life into a barn in the forests of Maine where I sleep on a cot surrounded by boxes full of models and the sounds of bats.
I'm penniless in a new land. I have thousands of dollars of Warhammer models, enough to run a tournament of 8 players on 4 fully terrained tables...
But I don't know anyone in a few hundred square miles and I don't even have a table now. I don't even have a chair to sit on or faucet to put water in a cup to clean my brushes.

If you're salty... I'm the God of Sodium.

My personal disasters aside, removing the Firstborn is not only a wise move from GW... It is the correct one. Always keep in mind that GWs largest customer pool is women over 50. They buy the cool new things for their kids, boyfriends, husbands etc. And the guys at the store aren't pressured to up their sales of outdated models.

Uptonius wrote:
Gutting the range is in no way a mistake for GW. They sell hundreds (well, thousands) of different products that need to be manufactured, transported, stored and sold. They can't keep making 20+ year old products and continue to increase the price for the product.
...
My personal disasters aside, removing the Firstborn is not only a wise move from GW... It is the correct one. Always keep in mind that GWs largest customer pool is women over 50. They buy the cool new things for their kids, boyfriends, husbands etc. And the guys at the store aren't pressured to up their sales of outdated models.

Funny, that is exactly what GW did the past two decades. The massive range refresh for all armies is only something that is happening for the last few years. And as the update of existing models shows, there is a way to sell new stuff at a higher price without making older kits obsolete.

Uptonius wrote:
My favorite cereal is S'mores from the late 80's early 90's...

Not at all comparable.