And SING HOSANNAS! A pretty substantial raft of plastic Aspect Warriors is coming! Including Warp Spiders, and their Phoenix Lord!
So substantial I think it’s just Karandras and Sniper Lad that will remain not in plastic for now?
Not saying it’s been forever and a day the existing Warp Spider sculpts have been around, but my best friend and I were in Year 9 of Secondary School when they came out, and he missed the stream tonight because he’s got his Grandson over.
Of particular interest to me is Fire Dragons can now take Flamers instead of Fusion Guns. And the presenters suggested the squad can take a mix, which is nice. Though pics and article suggest they were discussing the Exarch only. Hmm
Gonna add the piccies next.
Spoiler:
Fire Dragons and Exarch
Asurmen
Baharroth
Swooping Hawks - that hopefully will do more than land, shout boo, and immediately die to only mildly rude words.
Lhykis, The Whispering Web, Phoenix Lord of the Warp Spiders
Thanks for sharing. They knocked it out of the park on baharroth, the falcons and that warp spider lord, and the others are solid resculpts as well. I look forward to painting them.
Well, it wouldn’t be the first time they’ve shown a unit without its options. They did the same for the Solar Auxilia Veletaris, as they didn’t show off the Volkite for ages. Of course, it wouldn’t be the first time the presenters have been wrong.
I’ll listen back to the relevant part of the stream.
They definitely said a new weapon option for the squad, that being flamers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Glad I did revisit. Missed the shpiel about Swooping Hawks, as my Curry had arrived (and nothing stands between me and my payday Madras).
Lasblasters are 4 S4 shots each. So it’s definitely sounding like Swooping Hawks are gonna pack a decent punch for the first time.
I could have swore they were S3, but checking the app, lasblasters are 4 shots, S4, no AP 1 dam with assault and lethal hits right now.
They have classically been high volume of pretty mediocre shots. These look pretty solid. Still fold like a cheep suit if you look at them hard, but that’s eldar for you…
Very cool to see. I was wondering what the 3rd weapon option for the exarchs was going to be.
The metals only had flamer and pike, so 3rd being axe and pistol.
The Hawks had in their 4th ed profile sunrifle, hawk talon and power sword..seems they've replaced the sunrifle with a scatter laser. And given him a laser pistol? Rather than a shuriken.
The spiders had power blades, dual spinners and a spinarette rifle. Looks like they've kept that more or less.
Love baharroth, looks great and the warp spider.
I've got a half finished conversion of asurmen I was making that is actually in exactly that pose. I'm unsure about the mouth slit and noseless nose guard concept.
He originally looked like a samurai menpo which I always thought was cool. They kept Jain zars face mask face so I kind of would have preferred an updated asurmen mask.
But all in all they are fantastic and great to see finally closing the circle on Eldar models.
Will be interested to see when karandras comes out. I've always preferred the idea that drazhar is arhas replacement for karandras as favoured pupil rather than arha himself. Arha should be more daemonic and monstrous.
Would be cool to see karandras vs arha come out with the dark eldar.
I’m particularly fond of how they’ve slimmed down the Warp Spiders just enough.
The originals were of course fairly static, likely a necessity as a top heavy metal model limits your posing options if you want them to stand up (ref 2nd Ed Hormagaunts).
Here, they still have the signature greater bulk, but married to a more recognisable Eldar litheness.
Most of those look pretty amazing.... like the not to classic poses, and the little statuettes. If I ever got Lhykis I wouldn't use the timey wimey misty stuff - ymmv.
Btw, have to say.. after another scroll across these units, the paints are amazing, especially the soulgems and weapon effects both on the blades and guns.
Ofcourse that should not weigh in on buying decisions because its unrealistic that we ourselves would paint that level, I mean look at the cuts on asurmen's sword looking as if they were done with a single hair from a tardigrade. Or that lightning effect on the warp spider guns, heh.
stroller wrote: Most of those look pretty amazing.... like the not to classic poses, and the little statuettes. If I ever got Lhykis I wouldn't use the timey wimey misty stuff - ymmv.
stroller wrote: Most of those look pretty amazing.... like the not to classic poses, and the little statuettes. If I ever got Lhykis I wouldn't use the timey wimey misty stuff - ymmv.
What are the tombstones?
Eldar teleport homers?
Pure fun little extra. I don’t think they have any rules, or ever did. Just little shrine markers. You can use them for objectives or base decoration, whatever.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well, it wouldn’t be the first time they’ve shown a unit without its options. They did the same for the Solar Auxilia Veletaris, as they didn’t show off the Volkite for ages. Of course, it wouldn’t be the first time the presenters have been wrong.
I’ll listen back to the relevant part of the stream.
They definitely said a new weapon option for the squad, that being flamers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Glad I did revisit. Missed the shpiel about Swooping Hawks, as my Curry had arrived (and nothing stands between me and my payday Madras).
Lasblasters are 4 S4 shots each. So it’s definitely sounding like Swooping Hawks are gonna pack a decent punch for the first time.
Hawks already have that weapon profile and it's already not all that impressive in-game. Their main use is as secondary scorers, which it sounds like they'll get worse at as they're losing uppy-downy and getting a return of the Grenade Pack.
If they keep the Grenades keyword and so can use the strat in conjunction with the Grenade Pack rule then they'll be a big source of mortal wounds which is probably where most of their actual damage will come from.
stroller wrote: Most of those look pretty amazing.... like the not to classic poses, and the little statuettes. If I ever got Lhykis I wouldn't use the timey wimey misty stuff - ymmv.
What are the tombstones?
Eldar teleport homers?
Pure fun little extra. I don’t think they have any rules, or ever did. Just little shrine markers. You can use them for objectives or base decoration, whatever.
stroller wrote: Most of those look pretty amazing.... like the not to classic poses, and the little statuettes. If I ever got Lhykis I wouldn't use the timey wimey misty stuff - ymmv.
What are the tombstones?
Eldar teleport homers?
Pure fun little extra. I don’t think they have any rules, or ever did. Just little shrine markers. You can use them for objectives or base decoration, whatever.
Huh. Proof GW do still have good in them.
It's cool but also strange because every other army has little based token bits and they all represent rules of some sort, drones, servo skulls, teleport homers etc.
Given how fragile and difficult to use aspects are in the game, having some special rule they can use represented by these would be cool.
Something like:
Paragons of War
Once per game at the start of your turn, place the shrine token next to an aspect warrior unit. For that turn the unit may act in each phase twice, move twice, shoot twice, fight twice. In melee the second attack is made after all other attacks as a continuing combat, it does not start a combat again.
Powerful? Maybe, but t3 w1 models fall over in a stiff breeze and unless they plan on giving them 3++ saves to keep them around longer, they should be really good at what they do while they're still alive.
Lathe Biosas wrote: So, what are you going to do with your old Warp Spiders?
They've been with you for what? Ten, Fifteen years?
Field multiple squads? And 10-15 years is lowballing the age of a lot spiders out there. Mine are metal and mostly from the 3rd edition era. Which is what, 20-25 years? Damn I’m old.
Spoiler:
I forget what edition they were our broken unit. Was it 7th? Honestly forget. But I know they were the FOTM for a bit. That’s the nature of eldar. Cursed with crappy internal balance. Normally a top tier army, but which units get you there change all the time. Someone who has been chasing the dragon for years will end up with 3 of everything…
I suspect my collection of aspects will be mixed between old and new. But I’ve never really focused hard on them, preferring bikes and tanks. The old guys will probably warm the shelf more. The new kits just look so nice, they will probably be the first ones to be picked to head to the FLGS. But sometimes I double up on units for theme, or just run pure nostalgia lists.
First, the throwing away of sacred relics (or at least their crappy finecast cousins) to waching theatrical releases of films... Will this Heresy ever end?
He missed the reveal, because he was babysitting his grandson
God just typing that makes my bones creak. And probably explains why I’m watching The Goonies’
Yup, still remember the first time it was on TV and laughing so hard at Chunk telling the bad guys his life story.
But yeah, to have so many models updated in one go is pretty damn sweet. I've been lucky in that my two favourites have always been Banshees and Reapers, and were the first to be updated.
Dysartes wrote: Not throwing shade here, Samus, but given they had already had three sculpts, Reapers should've been at the back of the queue.
Yeah that 3rd iteration was pretty nice too. But once they switched them to Fincast I'm guessing they dropped in popularity. The metals are sweet though.
stroller wrote: Most of those look pretty amazing.... like the not to classic poses, and the little statuettes. If I ever got Lhykis I wouldn't use the timey wimey misty stuff - ymmv.
What are the tombstones?
Eldar teleport homers?
Pure fun little extra. I don’t think they have any rules, or ever did. Just little shrine markers. You can use them for objectives or base decoration, whatever.
Back when Kill Team still had Spec Ops rules, there was a statue Asset for the Blades of Khaine base of Operations- a pretty cool little piece of narrative work. You could only have statues to one Aspect at a time, but you could switch the statue with any subsequent purchase of the Asset. This was a great way to explore the balance of power between the Aspects that made up the KT, especially since it overlapped with other ways of doing the same thing- like which shrine get the Exarch role, the number of operatives from each shrine etc.
That said, Assets are used during the campaign round as opposed to the battle, so they don't NEED to be represented by models. It is a good way to represent objective in a build where the Blade are playing the Defender role.
I had lots of plans for the statues for my Blades of Khaine KT... Then GW went and nuked the Spec ops rules like the =][= EXPLATIVE DELETED =][= they are.
bullisariuscowl wrote: Oh Christ-on-a-feckin'-bike. I told myself I wouldn't start that Eldar army.... goddammit.
I will be buying some new eldar... but for a different reason.
I'm looking at all the Eldar bits for my Imperial Knight army's bases... so many choice pieces are screaming "I'm perfect for being stomped into oblivion!"
Assuming I ever got around to replacing my single squad of OG metal spiders with these very nice plastics.... I'd just gift them to some new player. Save 'em $60 or so as they start out.
But.... I've hardly ever used Warp Spiders anyways. They've just never really grabbed my imagination. Hence why I only have 1 10x squad of them. And there's alot more on the shopping/building/even painting list & of way higher priority than replacing a rarely used squad with better looking models that'd also hardly ever be used (and would likely remain unpainted for years to come).
Feels weird to see spiders updated after 30 years and 8 editions. Now Karandras is the last guy from the class of 94 who needs a new model. I suppose we're looking at 11th edition for him.
Spiders look nice. Except for the bare head ynarri version. I get keeping with the theme, but it looks extra silly on a warp spider. And so that's what a spinneret rifle looks like...
Glad they kept the dragons close to the 4th edition resculpts even down to the exarch pose. Having an option for all flamers is nice. It never made sense that only the exarch would take the dragon's breath flamer.
It's very rare that I get on a bandwagon, but I think I'm going whole hog into Eldar with this release. Already close to getting my first MSU completed. My next projects will be an Autarch proxy Corsair Prince, or a unit of Dire Avengers from the Sable Helm shrine for Asurmen to lead.
As for the models, Asurmen is the real stand-out to me, though that might just be because I'm reading Hand of Asuryan right now.
Same here, Eldar late adopter after 20 years of refusing to join the party and finally ordered Jain Zar yesterday. She'll be placed tactically sound on a vantage point on my shelf to make mocking gestures towards my Night Lords.
Remember that UK peeps can get access to cheapy Eldar stuff through the Hatchette Combat Patrol release. Not sure when the Eldar section is due to release, but it has farseer, jetbikes, Guardians, wraithguard and Wraithlord for cheapness.
Even if you miss the issues themsleves, there tends to be a dump onto e-bay of the kits with even deeper discounts than the usual retailers.
For example, the Wraithlord will be £13 purchased separately from Forbidden Planet.
Flinty wrote: Remember that UK peeps can get access to cheapy Eldar stuff through the Hatchette Combat Patrol release. Not sure when the Eldar section is due to release, but it has farseer, jetbikes, Guardians, wraithguard and Wraithlord for cheapness.
Even if you miss the issues themsleves, there tends to be a dump onto e-bay of the kits with even deeper discounts than the usual retailers.
For example, the Wraithlord will be £13 purchased separately from Forbidden Planet.
Where's my "shakes fist at sky" emoji?
Darn Brits, flaunting their cool gaming stuff at us again!
I'm not really an "Eldar Guy". I have technically collected them, but excepted for my Phantoms and Revenants haven't really seen a tabletop. My collection was three boxes of infantry I've won at tourneys and a large box of second-hand 2nd edition metals I stripped and reassembled.
This has me interested in taking the faction more seriously.
I'm glad you are all excited for the new Eldar Models as Mad Doc Grotsnik is when he hears the phrase: "new HeroClix models"
To me, this new model stuff is one of the best holiday gifts. It means people are still playing... which will equate (hopefully) that I'll be avlble to have some fun too.
Hellebore wrote: Random observation, is this the first codex cover with a special character on it in a while?
Also, most of if not all of the codex covers for 10th so far have been recycled but this is new.
seems an odd choice.
Not new artwork but agents has Coteaz on the front.
Ah yes good call. It's all been recycled, except the new guard and eldar ones coming up. And only coteaz has shown up as a special character until fuegan.
I'm so happy about this release. Eldar were my first army back in 2E and I didn't play them for a while because these days I really hate working with metal or failcast. Getting these new, brilliant models gives me a lot of motivation, last night I built the Avatar I had lying around in its box since release. Time to paint elves.
Also? I’m appreciating they’ve not tried to reinvent the wheel in terms of the designs.
The early Eldar models were design and execution wise, easily GW’s best at the time. And whilst model making technology has moved on? The designs remain classics, and are now being realised with the more dynamic options allowed by plastic.
That they’ve resisted the inevitable temptation to tinker with the designs is a good thing to me. Especially Lychis, who slots in among the other Phoenix Lords very nicely.
Nevelon wrote: Although you can have a token living spiritseer in a army full of dead wraithbone constructs. Not 100% dead, but close and thematically appropriate.
When the new Codex comes out will you guys help me build that list. It's been on the backburner for a while.
I'm thinking of linking the Eldar to my Freeblade Lance/Inquisition force im putting together.
Nevelon wrote: Although you can have a token living spiritseer in a army full of dead wraithbone constructs. Not 100% dead, but close and thematically appropriate.
When the new Codex comes out will you guys help me build that list. It's been on the backburner for a while.
I'm thinking of linking the Eldar to my Freeblade Lance/Inquisition force im putting together.
I can’t say it will be good advice, but I’m always up for tossing in my two cents if asked.
I think I've realised why I don't like Ausrmen's new face.
It looks like transformer...
While the original one, even though it was awkwardly sculpted with the mould line right down the middle of the face, looked more like a samurai mask which had a nice feel to it (the mould line notwithstanding). Face masks are common amongst the eldar, every harlequin has one, the dark eldar use other people's faces as masks...
And jain zar and maugan ra both have a face (the latter being skeletal but still a face). So I've never understood the issue people had with Asurmen's face. He's a wandering ronin that fights for his people and wears cool samurai mask.
Hellebore wrote: I think I've realised why I don't like Ausrmen's new face.
It looks like transformer...
While the original one, even though it was awkwardly sculpted with the mould line right down the middle of the face, looked more like a samurai mask which had a nice feel to it (the mould line notwithstanding). Face masks are common amongst the eldar, every harlequin has one, the dark eldar use other people's faces as masks...
And jain zar and maugan ra both have a face (the latter being skeletal but still a face). So I've never understood the issue people had with Asurmen's face. He's a wandering ronin that fights for his people and wears cool samurai mask.
Hah, agreed, that's the first thing I thought when I saw his face (and why I'll be skipping Asurmen Prime). I thought I was the only lol
Gitdakka wrote: The new asurmen face looks more like a necron than an eldar
Certainly has some similarity to the old necron pariah model faces.
I don't think the new one is executed badly, I just am not a big fan of the style it's in. The Ronin concept of the phoenix lords is great as eternal wandering warriors and that mask was one of the design elements that spoke to that.
I'd also have loved to see him with the more ornate shoulder pads of the original as well. They've reduced the bling on a lot of these models as they moved them to plastic, the spider exarch has almost nothing that distinguishes it from the armour of its troops which is a shame. The armour is supposed to be ancient and ornate. The original one at those interesting web designs on the thighs for example.
There are only two kinds. Dead ones, and ones that need killing. It’s not hard.
and ones that need killing again
To be fair, a lot of them fit that.
Necrons will just get back up.
Eldar use necromancy to reanimate as constructs.
Tyranids respawn.
Orks can live through almost anything, and will come back for more.
in-lore yes.
in-rules, not right now considering eldar doesn't have their full codex just yet, but there will 100% be a detachment to represent Iyanden armies
Daba wrote: Nice; Baharroth is my favourite of the batch.
Interesting to hear that Aspects are getting squad options, outside of Exarch options, for the first time ever?
I think it's more likely they confused the exarchs flamer for the whole squad. ORRR they just have 2 settings on their guns and can fire as melta or flamer, like reaper launchers. But I am very skeptical they're going to have two sets of weapons on the sprue.
I’m also thinking they may have misspoken on the stream. But, the Solar Auxilia Veltaris Section pics have given us a recent example of when the options weren’t show off in the promotional pics at all.
I’m inclined it to be the latter instance, because the wording included that across the squad, you can have a mix of Meltaguns and Flamers.
But not nailing my colours to the mast on that, despite my hopefulness.
I’ve not seriously played 40K since…erm…6th for sure, maybe some 7th, but I’ve been looking over the Index rules and I’m seeing some potential.
Detachments are always welcome when you’re awaiting your Codex though. Not sure what to expect though.
I’d like Wraith or Aspect heavy, but given we’re told all these Chrimbo Detachments are future proof, and not holdovers until your Codex comes along? I suspect they won’t be, as those really, really should be Codex staples.
what do people think if the detachment? I think it is a bit underwhelming. Also not a whole lot of character, just feels bland. Can't wait for the codex though
Just because I was bored... an ode to an old friend who will not be missed...
Ode to the (Finecast) Eldar Warp Spider
Oh, Warp Spider, bane of the tabletop scene,
In your Finecast form, you were seldom seen.
A creature of grace, or so they would claim,
Yet your brittle limbs brought only shame.
With a flick of your wrist, you’d leap through the air,
But alas, dear model, you’d often despair.
For every bold jump, a crack would ensue,
A shattered reminder of what once was true.
Your web-slinging prowess, a sight to behold,
Yet your resin would warp, and your paint would grow old.
A delicate dancer, you’d trip on your feet,
A miniature marvel, now just a defeat.
Oh, how we lamented your fragile design,
With each broken piece, we’d pour out our wine.
“Fear not!” they would say, “For the new ones are here!”
But we’ll always remember your cringe-worthy cheer.
Now the new models shine, with detail and might,
While you, dear Warp Spider, fade into the night.
A relic of chaos, a laugh in the past,
In the annals of gaming, your legacy’s cast.
So here’s to the Warp Spider, once loved, now a jest,
A miniature misfit, you’ve failed every test.
Though you’ve left us in laughter, we bid you adieu,
In the halls of our hearts, there’s still room for you.
Looking to start a Corsair army.
I have looked at the eldar index and datasheets, as well as the DE index and datasheets, but incase I missed something, are there any transports (particularly like the venom) that corsairs can embark in?
johnpjones1775 wrote: Looking to start a Corsair army.
I have looked at the eldar index and datasheets, as well as the DE index and datasheets, but incase I missed something, are there any transports (particularly like the venom) that corsairs can embark in?
Basically, they can embark in serpents and falcons (because those transport AELDARI models) but not star weavers, venoms, raiders, or tantaluses (tantali?) because those transport HARLEQUIN and DRUKHARI models. It feels like an oversight, and many people are keeping their fingers crossed for an anhrathe detachment in the drukhari book.
Here’s a quicky, though I’ve left it late for this Edition.
Character Level Exarchs. We need more than just Farseer/Autarch/Warlocks. We need 2nd Ed style, Lt-ish level Indy Exarchs.
Are Autarchs lost on the path of command? Like exarchs on the aspects and farseers on the seer path? If so that leaves space for someone who is just walking the path of command. Done a few aspects, dabbling in leadership, but might go to basket weaving next.
The way autachs can pick and choose gear means you could field something like a 2nd ed independent exarch. Not quite the same, but could scratch the itch? How they attach to squads in 10th does make it a little lackluster.
Autarchs aren't trapped. I know there are several examples including one in which an autarch goes on to become a seer later, but I'm struggling to recall the details for anyone other than Yriel. Yriel of course famously going autarch -> outcast -> autarch.
They literally just need to split the autarch profile into a pure command and control and a beat stick, with the latter being an exarch ancient, shrine guardian, phoenix prince or whatever you want to call it - menshad korum even to call back to the fact that an exarch is lost to the PATH and not an ASPECT, they can move throughout the path if they wish, but they can never leave it.
I've never liked the implementation of the autarch because it side steps the 'get lost on path, become uber' consequence of the eldar path system.
The literal point of the system is that you try to avoid falling by not becoming super obsessed and specialised, but if you DO then you become the perfect exemplar of that path manifest, making you a monster at that one thing, more than you could be if you were restrained.
Autarchs are a bit mary sue in their interaction with the path system.
I've no problem with the concept of a strategic genius path that conducts eldar warfare, just how they're implemented in the game as a better warrior than the guys who literally sacrifice their souls to their armour and place in society to never sleep or eat and only do war forever.
Autarchs need to be more like guard commanders but with eldar strategic superiority. Exarchs need to be the front line beat sticks that take on enemy champions as a pure test of their martial skill, seeking out the most dangerous and important parts of the battlefield to ply their trade. Hopefully now that the whole army is up to date, they'll start doing some new unit/character designs like this one in the coming years.
There's a whole load of potential within each aspect and shrine to create the depth of lore that a marine chapter has, with exarchs of different skill and focus (we already see that exarchs are entirely willing to wield weapons their phoenix lords don't, so their interpretation of the philosophy of the aspect is not immutable or fixed).
Exarchs are priests, teachers, armourers, walking embodiments of Khaine the warrior and guardians to the shrines, that's a whole load of jobs that could be demonstrated in different ways. Just the idea of an exarch focusing on his representing Khaine as a priest, bringing the bloody hand to the battlefield is cool.
What is lost in eldar discussion is that their entire culture is one of symbology, myth and philosophy and these aren't fixed. They debate them, they are personal and subjective.
It's all interpretive. A farseer interprets runes, they don't assume rigid outcomes. Each path is an interpretation within a philosophy and while the aspects have more structure to them than other paths, there is variety of dress, tradition, weapons, tactics, colours etc within each shrine yet they all claim to be of the same aspect.
An aspect is basically the equivalent of Christianity, while each shrine is a denomination, sticking to similar tenants but performed differently.
There is so much room in their for some amazing stuff, they just have the bad fortune of not being space marines to get that attention.
I've no problem with the concept of a strategic genius path that conducts eldar warfare, just how they're implemented in the game as a better warrior than the guys who literally sacrifice their souls to their armour and place in society to never sleep or eat and only do war forever.
I'm inclined to agree, but I'm not sure we need a new autarch datasheet to address this. You could probably just bump autarch WS/BS stats down to normal aspect levels (so hitting on 3s rather than 2s with most weapons) and then maybe beef up exarchs a little. Just letting them hit on 2s (like they used to) and maybe giving them an additional wound would go a long way, I think. Although I don't think most people would complain if you made exarch weapon profiles significantly more scary and upped the cost of aspect squads to match.
But again, the simple solution to making exarchs feel like master warriors while making autarchs feel like they're just smart guys with aspect training... is probably to just swap who hits on 2+ and who hits on 3+.
Within the current GW paradigm of inventing new characters and units, I would expect to see expansion. The exarchs are an untapped potential for one off character ideas for years to come.
Solo exarchs that refuse to train anyone - nothing forces an exarch to teach, they would prefer to be killing anyway. Basically the exarch equivalent of an Assassin.
Exarchs that focus on their emulation of Khaine as his priest - a neglected part of their background that could look pretty amazing. Blood Priests that draw power from the murder they cause - a little incubi-esque due to the darkness of Khaine.
Shrine Progenitors - ancient exarchs that split from their parent shrine to found their own. The shrines were never exclusively started by phoenix lords, they were just the first to do so. Ancient powerful exarchs that are the first amongst their shrine.
plenty more, but these three ideas are probably the ones I like the most at the moment.
I've no problem with the concept of a strategic genius path that conducts eldar warfare, just how they're implemented in the game as a better warrior than the guys who literally sacrifice their souls to their armour and place in society to never sleep or eat and only do war forever.
I'm inclined to agree, but I'm not sure we need a new autarch datasheet to address this. You could probably just bump autarch WS/BS stats down to normal aspect levels (so hitting on 3s rather than 2s with most weapons) and then maybe beef up exarchs a little. Just letting them hit on 2s (like they used to) and maybe giving them an additional wound would go a long way, I think. Although I don't think most people would complain if you made exarch weapon profiles significantly more scary and upped the cost of aspect squads to match.
But again, the simple solution to making exarchs feel like master warriors while making autarchs feel like they're just smart guys with aspect training... is probably to just swap who hits on 2+ and who hits on 3+.
I dunno, I'm thinking Phoenix Lord -> Autaruch -> Exarch isn't awful so Phoenix Lord, hit on 2's, beatstick and/or strong flavor (Scorpion, Hawk, etc) support bespoke, then Autaurch 2's, Milder but wider support bespokes. Exarch, 3's Flavor Bespoke if anything.
I've no problem with the concept of a strategic genius path that conducts eldar warfare, just how they're implemented in the game as a better warrior than the guys who literally sacrifice their souls to their armour and place in society to never sleep or eat and only do war forever.
I'm inclined to agree, but I'm not sure we need a new autarch datasheet to address this. You could probably just bump autarch WS/BS stats down to normal aspect levels (so hitting on 3s rather than 2s with most weapons) and then maybe beef up exarchs a little. Just letting them hit on 2s (like they used to) and maybe giving them an additional wound would go a long way, I think. Although I don't think most people would complain if you made exarch weapon profiles significantly more scary and upped the cost of aspect squads to match.
But again, the simple solution to making exarchs feel like master warriors while making autarchs feel like they're just smart guys with aspect training... is probably to just swap who hits on 2+ and who hits on 3+.
I dunno, I'm thinking Phoenix Lord -> Autaruch -> Exarch isn't awful so Phoenix Lord, hit on 2's, beatstick and/or strong flavor (Scorpion, Hawk, etc) support bespoke, then Autaurch 2's, Milder but wider support bespokes. Exarch, 3's Flavor Bespoke if anything.
I mean, the problem with that is that according to their lore, exarchs should absolutely fight circles around autarchs. Autarchs have a wide breadth of combat experiences thanks to having walked multiple paths, and there's probably some amount of synergy to be found there (ala their wargear loadouts). But they're basically just veteran aspect warriors. Their actual focus is on being big brains who tell other people what to do. In contrast, an exarch is literally obsessed with fighting well. They eat, sleep, and breathe combat so thoroughly they're literally not allowed out of their shrines except during times of war. They're supernatural monsters whose souls have synched up with the war god.
In terms of raw fighting ability, it should go Phoenix Lord > Exarch > Autarch > Aspect Warrior.
I mean, the problem with that is that according to their lore, exarchs should absolutely fight circles around autarchs. Autarchs have a wide breadth of combat experiences thanks to having walked multiple paths, and there's probably some amount of synergy to be found there (ala their wargear loadouts). But they're basically just veteran aspect warriors. Their actual focus is on being big brains who tell other people what to do. In contrast, an exarch is literally obsessed with fighting well. They eat, sleep, and breathe combat so thoroughly they're literally not allowed out of their shrines except during times of war. They're supernatural monsters whose souls have synched up with the war god.
In terms of raw fighting ability, it should go Phoenix Lord > Exarch > Autarch > Aspect Warrior.
The Autarch has always been in a weird spot. When introduced, he wasn't much of a beat stick, and with the old FOC, I never found a spot for him. His strategic genius was just a +1 on reserve rolls. Oh and he gave the army a strategy rating of 4 while the best rating other armies had was a 3. This rating affected a dice roll for selecting a mission back in 4th. Currently, his combat prowess isn't much of a factor since he can only join guardians of either flavor or be a lone ranger. Strategically he gets you an extra CP per turn and lets you reuse a strategem on his unit.
So I agree that an exarch should much more of a beat stick than an Autarch. But as long as the Autarch comes in his own box or blister and the Exarch comes in a squad box, it's not going to change. Similarly, Warlocks should be better fighters than a Farseer. I'd really like to see them get levels again like in 2nd, but they come 2 to a box now so that's off the table too. Max unit size of 4. Back in the day you could have the council of 10!
I mean, the problem with that is that according to their lore, exarchs should absolutely fight circles around autarchs. Autarchs have a wide breadth of combat experiences thanks to having walked multiple paths, and there's probably some amount of synergy to be found there (ala their wargear loadouts). But they're basically just veteran aspect warriors. Their actual focus is on being big brains who tell other people what to do. In contrast, an exarch is literally obsessed with fighting well. They eat, sleep, and breathe combat so thoroughly they're literally not allowed out of their shrines except during times of war. They're supernatural monsters whose souls have synched up with the war god.
In terms of raw fighting ability, it should go Phoenix Lord > Exarch > Autarch > Aspect Warrior.
The Autarch has always been in a weird spot. When introduced, he wasn't much of a beat stick, and with the old FOC, I never found a spot for him. His strategic genius was just a +1 on reserve rolls. Oh and he gave the army a strategy rating of 4 while the best rating other armies had was a 3. This rating affected a dice roll for selecting a mission back in 4th. Currently, his combat prowess isn't much of a factor since he can only join guardians of either flavor or be a lone ranger. Strategically he gets you an extra CP per turn and lets you reuse a strategem on his unit.
So I agree that an exarch should much more of a beat stick than an Autarch. But as long as the Autarch comes in his own box or blister and the Exarch comes in a squad box, it's not going to change. Similarly, Warlocks should be better fighters than a Farseer. I'd really like to see them get levels again like in 2nd, but they come 2 to a box now so that's off the table too. Max unit size of 4. Back in the day you could have the council of 10!
I don't think how they're sold is really a factor in this case. The main appeal of the autarch right now is his CP generation, and the wayleaper is a common sight in many lists. (The foottarch is having a bit of a comeback now that his Rites of Battle equivalent actually does something.) So it's not like GW is doubling down on autarchs as beatsticks. They have a perfectly good non-beatstick niche right now. And exarchs are a non-mandatory build option in both old and new aspect kits. So if they wanted to buff exarchs and either raise the point scosts of squads to match *or* make them an optional upgrade for the squad, *or* make them a character that happens to be sold as part of a non-character box (the same way Troupe Masters are just an optional build in the harlequin troupe box), they could absolutely make any of those options happen. If anything, having notably powerful "sergeants" sprinkled throughout the army could be a good way to help give it its own identity.
I mean, the problem with that is that according to their lore, exarchs should absolutely fight circles around autarchs. Autarchs have a wide breadth of combat experiences thanks to having walked multiple paths, and there's probably some amount of synergy to be found there (ala their wargear loadouts). But they're basically just veteran aspect warriors. Their actual focus is on being big brains who tell other people what to do. In contrast, an exarch is literally obsessed with fighting well. They eat, sleep, and breathe combat so thoroughly they're literally not allowed out of their shrines except during times of war. They're supernatural monsters whose souls have synched up with the war god.
In terms of raw fighting ability, it should go Phoenix Lord > Exarch > Autarch > Aspect Warrior.
The Autarch has always been in a weird spot. When introduced, he wasn't much of a beat stick, and with the old FOC, I never found a spot for him. His strategic genius was just a +1 on reserve rolls. Oh and he gave the army a strategy rating of 4 while the best rating other armies had was a 3. This rating affected a dice roll for selecting a mission back in 4th. Currently, his combat prowess isn't much of a factor since he can only join guardians of either flavor or be a lone ranger. Strategically he gets you an extra CP per turn and lets you reuse a strategem on his unit.
So I agree that an exarch should much more of a beat stick than an Autarch. But as long as the Autarch comes in his own box or blister and the Exarch comes in a squad box, it's not going to change. Similarly, Warlocks should be better fighters than a Farseer. I'd really like to see them get levels again like in 2nd, but they come 2 to a box now so that's off the table too. Max unit size of 4. Back in the day you could have the council of 10!
GW can get round this by releasing super special trademarkable name exarch and warlock though?
I mean, the problem with that is that according to their lore, exarchs should absolutely fight circles around autarchs. Autarchs have a wide breadth of combat experiences thanks to having walked multiple paths, and there's probably some amount of synergy to be found there (ala their wargear loadouts). But they're basically just veteran aspect warriors. Their actual focus is on being big brains who tell other people what to do. In contrast, an exarch is literally obsessed with fighting well. They eat, sleep, and breathe combat so thoroughly they're literally not allowed out of their shrines except during times of war. They're supernatural monsters whose souls have synched up with the war god.
In terms of raw fighting ability, it should go Phoenix Lord > Exarch > Autarch > Aspect Warrior.
The Autarch has always been in a weird spot. When introduced, he wasn't much of a beat stick, and with the old FOC, I never found a spot for him. His strategic genius was just a +1 on reserve rolls. Oh and he gave the army a strategy rating of 4 while the best rating other armies had was a 3. This rating affected a dice roll for selecting a mission back in 4th. Currently, his combat prowess isn't much of a factor since he can only join guardians of either flavor or be a lone ranger. Strategically he gets you an extra CP per turn and lets you reuse a strategem on his unit.
So I agree that an exarch should much more of a beat stick than an Autarch. But as long as the Autarch comes in his own box or blister and the Exarch comes in a squad box, it's not going to change. Similarly, Warlocks should be better fighters than a Farseer. I'd really like to see them get levels again like in 2nd, but they come 2 to a box now so that's off the table too. Max unit size of 4. Back in the day you could have the council of 10!
GW can get round this by releasing super special trademarkable name exarch and warlock though?
I mean, if you want a named beatstick autarch, Yriel is right there, longing for a model and lore update.
Arschbombe wrote: Strategically he gets you an extra CP per turn and lets you reuse a strategem on his unit.
You may want to refresh your Index. His "Rites of Battle, But in Elvish" got the same treatment.
The foot Autarch still has 'Superlative Strategist' for the cheaper option on its own unit (not 2nd use), but the Wayleaper and Skyrunner do not. All have 'Path of Command' for the CP.
So yeah, the 2nd use thing is gone now, but using a strat on this unit is cheaper instead. It is changed in the Index and Balance Dataslate.
Aeldari question. Is it safe to assume that there will be a new Combat Patrol box soon?
Now that I found a totally wonderful incanon and totally in universe way to paint the Aeldari,
I want to paint a Wraithlord, but I was told to wait for the new codex.
I think if they release a new CP they keep the rules up for the old one? They may or may not make it past an edition reset, but should be good for a codex update.
The Eldar box is not a bad assortment of things to have in your collection anyway.
Overread wrote: Considering the UKGW store isn't even listing the combat patrol box - yep there will be a new one
Not on the US one either.
Is the moment upon us? Have any seers read the skein of fate and found a release date?
Getting a little excited. Would be interesting to see what’s in the new CP if they release one. If only to get painting back logs of stuff if I need to build it out of my current collection/pile of shame, or what I’d need to pick up in the first wave.
Stupid Eldar getting their much longed for and deserved update of awesome models including a brand new Exarch that's never been release before as a model in 40years.
Stupid darn pointy eared elves in space getting in the way of the proper release of pointy eared vampires!
Giving me a whole extra week (at least) to save up/build stuff to reduce the building pile.
This is going to be a bad year for my paint more then I buy pledge. Eldar, soulblight, and I’m sure another box of marines or two. I need to get cracking on the pile of shame to get ahead of the game.
Overread wrote: Stupid Eldar getting their much longed for and deserved update of awesome models including a brand new Exarch that's never been release before as a model in 40years.
Corsairs are the fourth- according to Valrak rumours, there may be a new Corsair unit coming.
And really, making Corsairs more viable can be achieved through Keywords- giving them access to transports and other vehicles won't solve the problem entirely, but it can go a long way.
PenitentJake wrote: Corsairs are the fourth- according to Valrak rumours, there may be a new Corsair unit coming.
And really, making Corsairs more viable can be achieved through Keywords- giving them access to transports and other vehicles won't solve the problem entirely, but it can go a long way.
Well, they can already ride in craftworlder transports. They'd be better if you could take them in drukhari transports (to make the most of their shooting), but the bigger issue is that they just don't bring a ton to the table right now aside from the Scout rule. Breaking up the voidscarred unit into characters and non-characters would make it easier to flesh out the characters a bit as part of a detachment. Maybe just un-legends some of the 7th edition corsair units (and give them a better set of special rules.)
It's weird that corsairs are so half-baked at the moment because 7th edition corsairs were absolutely glorious. Then GW shanked them in a back alley and gave their subfaction/detachment rules to everyone as part of 8th edition.
Think I might delve into my Paycheque Awakening Books and do a thread, likely in background, about which snippets are yet to come to pass, given Fulgrim was also among them.
Well, they can already ride in craftworlder transports. They'd be better if you could take them in drukhari transports (to make the most of their shooting)
I wasn't sure, so thanks for the clarification. My Corsair headcannon involves aircraft; the Crimson Hunter and Hemlock don't really suit, but the Void Raven and Razorwing look good. I wish either the Eldar List or the Drukhari list had a plastic transport aircraft, but neither do.
Breaking up the voidscarred unit into characters and non-characters would make it easier to flesh out the characters a bit as part of a detachment. Maybe just un-legends some of the 7th edition corsair units (and give them a better set of special rules.)
I think the Valrak rumour was for a jump unit?
I think they need a generic Leader and Psyker; I suppose I'd be okay if they broke these out of the KT, but if they gave us new models it would be even better, because then we'd get to keep both the battle line and elite versions of the KT. Psyker inclusion in a unit SHOULD be one of those things that Voidscarred bring to the table, but with psychic powers basically being an extra attack or an Invulnerable save, having an embedded psyker isn't really that big a deal.
It's weird that corsairs are so half-baked at the moment because 7th edition corsairs were absolutely glorious. Then GW shanked them in a back alley and gave their subfaction/detachment rules to everyone as part of 8th edition.
Agreed. The plastic Corsair models are gorgeous, but the trade off was devastating for people who loved Corsairs.
I wasn't sure, so thanks for the clarification. My Corsair headcannon involves aircraft; the Crimson Hunter and Hemlock don't really suit, but the Void Raven and Razorwing look good. I wish either the Eldar List or the Drukhari list had a plastic transport aircraft, but neither do.
Well, the falcon is capable of void-to-surface transportation, and I imagine most other craftworld tanks are as well. The falcon was a dedicated transport for corsairs back in the day (as it sounds like you're aware), so if you're looking for landing craft, regular grav tanks can fill the role.
but the bigger issue is that they just don't bring a ton to the table right now aside from the Scout rule.
A good detachment and decent Crusade support would go a long way toward remedying that.
Maybe. Corsair shooting looks an awful lot like guardian or kabalite shooting. A bunch of shuriken rifles hopping out of a transport with a couple special weapon shots in tow only gets you so much mileage. I imagine trying to make corsairs playable as a full army without several more unit kits would probably mean depending heavily on vehicles. Some cool "raiding from orbit" type rules would be cool, but I'm not sure how far 6 strats, 4 enhancements, and a detachment rule will get you towards that. And I'm not confident said rules would have me wanting to field a ton of anhrathe infantry inside those vehicles. The armoured warhost is presumably a look at what a fast, vehicle-heavy detachment will look like, and I'm not sure it really captures the feeling of a "corsairs" army.
I think they need a generic Leader and Psyker; I suppose I'd be okay if they broke these out of the KT, but if they gave us new models it would be even better, because then we'd get to keep both the battle line and elite versions of the KT. Psyker inclusion in a unit SHOULD be one of those things that Voidscarred bring to the table, but with psychic powers basically being an extra attack or an Invulnerable save, having an embedded psyker isn't really that big a deal.
I'm not really married to keeping the elite version as-is. Shade runners and the psyker and the stone lady are all cool, but the unit is just painfully complicated when they're all stuffed into one place like that. I'd much rather let the shade runner run around being a lone op teleporting assassin type while the seer helps one squad blast the enemy and the stone lady heals casualties in another squad. Right now, the Kill Team is what? $70? Getting a squad with some alternate weapons and 3 characters out of that is kind of a steal. Breaking those things out into character blisters means you'd be looking at something closer to $35 x 3 + $50 for the same plastic.
Maybe. Corsair shooting looks an awful lot like guardian or kabalite shooting. A bunch of shuriken rifles hopping out of a transport with a couple special weapon shots in tow only gets you so much mileage. I imagine trying to make corsairs playable as a full army without several more unit kits would probably mean depending heavily on vehicles. Some cool "raiding from orbit" type rules would be cool, but I'm not sure how far 6 strats, 4 enhancements, and a detachment rule will get you towards that. And I'm not confident said rules would have me wanting to field a ton of anhrathe infantry inside those vehicles. The armoured warhost is presumably a look at what a fast, vehicle-heavy detachment will look like, and I'm not sure it really captures the feeling of a "corsairs" army.
Remember, I'm Jake: my favourite game size is 500 points, but I want that 500 points to feel like it is its own thing and doesn't have to borrow an HQ. I'm somewhat of an anomaly in that only one or two of the armies I collect will ever get to 2k points, but I've got a half a dozen or more little 500 point armies. I'm not advocating for a 2k Corsairs army, because you're certainly right- there aren't enough units for 6 strats and 4 enhancements to support at that size.
But with the right detachment, a 500-1k force could be really cool.
I'm not really married to keeping the elite version as-is. Shade runners and the psyker and the stone lady are all cool, but the unit is just painfully complicated when they're all stuffed into one place like that. I'd much rather let the shade runner run around being a lone op teleporting assassin type while the seer helps one squad blast the enemy and the stone lady heals casualties in another squad.
I don't know man- I think the Voidscarred are great units, and I think breaking out their specials reduces their flexibility. I don't want that unit to lose the abilities that it has as a result of those special characters. This unit is one that still has options that make it fun to build, and taking those away also takes away a narrative connection between 40k and Kill Team- which can be very important to campaigners like me who play side-mission games of Kill Team using units from my Crusade roster.
As I said before, if they HAVE TO break them out to give us characters, I suppose I'd be okay with it. But why wouldn't you rather just have an ACTUAL model for a leader, a psyker and an assassin? I mean, sure, those models are decent... But are they really character models?
If you made actual character models, there could be more than one build option.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Pretty good chance. Certainly I can’t immediately think of a 10th Ed Codex which didn’t come with a revised Combat Patrol?
But then, I can’t say I’ve exactly kept tabs on that either.
I think at least some of the Combat Patrols were already "compliant"? for lack of a better word. The Necron Combat Patrol still looks like a big chunk of their half of that starter set.
The Harlequins could do with 2 new units, a leader character and a mime troupe.
Troupe leaders can act like exarch mini characters.
That gives them pretty much all their 1st Ed army list back. Of course they could do more, but that's the minimum to get them to 'complete'. Unless they would provide ghost robots and wraithlords...
Imo corsairs need a felarch, a unique vehicle and a fast attack. The fw army list was pretty good, but it was pretty uninspired.
I'd go with something interesting like skyboard riders with heavy weapons or something to give them something a bit different to jump guardians or jetbike guardians.
PenitentJake wrote:
I don't know man- I think the Voidscarred are great units, and I think breaking out their specials reduces their flexibility.
I think that it's fair to say that, mechanically and objectively, they're not "great" in terms of performance. You don't really see them taken in competitive lists, and their confused role is part of that. Looking at the unit, you have:
* Shaderunner. Wants to do melee stuff, but the rest of the squad would kind of rather be shooting. And if you *do* build a bunch of normies for melee, they're going to essentially be lacklustre versions of other melee units players have access to. And if you still want to go that route just for the heck of it, consider how cool the Shaderunner could be if he were his own unit instead. Lone op. Teleporting all over the place. Mechanics for hitting hard when he gets the drop on the enemy. Basically, a lot of the stuff that he had in 9th, but expanded and given room to breathe.
* Seer. Wants to blast stuff. That's fine. They make sense as a character adding to the shooting of a shooty unit.
* Spirit stone lady. Currently lets you ignore one unsaved wound, but so what? Ignoring one bolter shot per turn isn't exactly impressive. Yet she's yet another rule you have to remember for this jumbled unit. Make her a character with a higher points cost, and you could afford to make her both more powerful and more complicated. Picture her reaching out and healing not only her squad but nearby squads as well. A proper psychic apothecary type, or else maybe a more flexible support character using stones for a variety of purposes.
* Sniper guy. Is kind of just an additional special gun guy, but you have to admit it's awkward having a guy with a sniper rifle following along with a bunch of sword or rapid fire gun guys. This guy could be our baby vindicaire or a corsair death jester equivalent. Which would not only give us yet another unique unit to make corsairs feel like their own thing, but would also give them a lone op guy to sit back and hold objectives with.
* The felarch, hawk guy, and special guns can all stick with the standard shooty/stabby pirates.
Of all those, the only "characters" who really feel like they might want to be together in the same unit are the seer and the spirit stone lady. I feel like you gain a ton more than you lose by splitting them out into their own datasheets.
As I said before, if they HAVE TO break them out to give us characters, I suppose I'd be okay with it. But why wouldn't you rather just have an ACTUAL model for a leader, a psyker and an assassin? I mean, sure, those models are decent... But are they really character models?
They're super cool models as-is. I don't want to pay ~$140 extra to reinvent the wheel and put those 4 of those guys in clamshell blisters. On the contrary, having 4 characters and a squad all included in a $70 box would make them the best points-per-dollar option in the game.
And I definitely don't want to pay all that extra money so that an already overcomplicated unit can gain the option to field a character that makes it even more complicated. Especially if the new character being added looks suspicioiusly similar to someone already in the squad.
Hellebore wrote:The Harlequins could do with 2 new units, a leader character and a mime troupe.
Troupe leaders can act like exarch mini characters.
That gives them pretty much all their 1st Ed army list back. Of course they could do more, but that's the minimum to get them to 'complete'. Unless they would provide ghost robots and wraithlords...
Imo corsairs need a felarch, a unique vehicle and a fast attack. The fw army list was pretty good, but it was pretty uninspired.
I'd go with something interesting like skyboard riders with heavy weapons or something to give them something a bit different to jump guardians or jetbike guardians.
Mimes and master mimes would be cool. One of the recent Ahriman novels remembered that mimes exist, so that's promising.
I wouldn't mind seeing a new transport for corsairs, but simply letting them use the existing ones in a more pirate-y way would work pretty well too. I don't think I'm sold on dakka hellions. Corsasirs with jetpacks looked cool and filled the role of mobile heavy weapon guys pretty well. Plus, that would allow long-time fans to have a use for their old models again. I'm all for making factions feel distinctive, but sometimes being different just for the sake of being different can lead to less than ideal results, you know?
Depends if they're staying with the Eldar codex or not. Currently the hawks, spiders and jetbikes all are pretty indistinguishable from the fw corsair units.
And as gw seem uninterested in pursuing those sonic weapons they had in FW, there's not even that to distinguish a new jetbike unit from the others.
I have a hard time seeing them investing in plastic corsair jetbikes or even jump packers when they're almost entirely an aesthetic rather than game play unit. They'd have to redesign their rules and equipment pretty extensively to make them a choice against the existing Eldar ones.
The new battle focus rules seem really cool. So much more character than just make dice 6s. Some of those reactive moves are going to be clutch. This will make them less point and delete and require more thought of when to use battle focus points kind of like cabal points for TS. Can’t wait to get this book and play.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also. That phoenix lord article makes me worried that kandaras won’t be in the codex
Not a fan of limited use racial abilities, but it does look it will be fun an interesting to use. I suspect it will help cement the feelings of frustration from across the table when playing against eldar. But to be fair, that’s on brand for the army.
Don’t see where the Phoenix Lord article would worry you about Karandrass. Yes, he’s the only one not in plastic these days, so is at risk. But I didn’t get any warning vibes from recent articles.
No plastic plus in the “other” section makes me worried. But other non plastics survived in other books like Huron so hopefully he will stay but I would feel better if he wasn’t in the also ran part of the article
xeen wrote: No plastic plus in the “other” section makes me worried. But other non plastics survived in other books like Huron so hopefully he will stay but I would feel better if he wasn’t in the also ran part of the article
My bad. I didn’t know there was a specific PL one, and thought you were referring to the recent one about the WSPL. Just read it.
I get why they don’t want to post pics of the old metal/finecast one in the same article as the new plastic ones. So yes, a dose of worry. We’ll know more in a week or less as the reviews/leaks hit.
xeen wrote: The new battle focus rules seem really cool. So much more character than just make dice 6s. Some of those reactive moves are going to be clutch. This will make them less point and delete and require more thought of when to use battle focus points kind of like cabal points for TS. Can’t wait to get this book and play.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also. That phoenix lord article makes me worried that kandaras won’t be in the codex
Definitely an improvement (in terms of fun) over Strand of Fate. I'm with Nevelon though. I don't love limited use abilities like this. One of my big complaints lately has been the way strats only let you do the fluffy thing with one unit per turn. New BF is kind of just another layer of strats with limited uses. I was hoping we'd just get the old BF back so we could shoot and scoot our whole army and use our mobility as defense. This seems like it's going to lend itself more to cookie cutter combos the same way Fire & Fade has.
Splash a second unit of bikes into my Saim-Hann list? Sorry. I'm already budgeting my once per turn Fade Back for my first squad. Or maybe for the avatar.
The Fleet rule helps with that a little, but we'll have to get in the habit of fielding 10-man bricks instead of MSU if we want to have anything alive after the initial shooting.
Kind of wish some of the random distances were just flat values too. Like, it's already costing us a finite resource and our once per turn use of the maneuver. Failing to scramble behind terrain because you rolled a 1 is going to suck.
I shouldn't be, but I'm honestly kind of down on these rules. I'm hoping my opinion turns around once I use them.
I'm not particularly excited by the commodification of rules, but GW has hitched its wagon to this style since the beginning of 10th.
They've been moving away from the simulationist end of the scale to the abstract and this is another example. that they're still using simulationist terminology like star engines ( a real piece of wargear) to describe a conditional abstraction is part of the issue.
If they reframed these to sound conditional in their name, it would cause less issue. For example, calling one 'Opportunistic reaction' qualifies its use in the name (not that it's a great name, just an example).
Making a game where the background is important but then abstracting the rules to conditionally represent that just looks weird. If you're going to abstractify gameplay to the point where it doesn't really matter what they are, removing references like these are your best option.
I’m wondering if the limited application might be part of its strength.
For instance, if I’m setting up a pair of charges, one with Banshees, one with Scorpions, against separate units, my opponent can’t be sure which is going to negate his Overwatch.
Seemingly, and outside of Aspect Detachment Wonk, it can only be one of them. If indeed I charge with both. This allowed one of them to just act the threat, breaking off their approach a turn before.
Of course, nothing is ever that straight forward in a real game. But “guess which unit is going saiyan” has potential perks over every unit can go saiyan.
Mechanically I don’t have major issues with it. Besides the potential of layering these with other strats. But the general scarcity of those in 10th should prevent any horrible wombo-combos. Although if there isn’t at least one that’s over a little into the “this feels broken” zone I’d be shocked. Not game breaking, just enough to feel dirty in casual play.
From a fluff POV it’s a bad way to represent racial traits IMHO.
But we’ll see what it looks like when we have the full picture.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lathe Biosas wrote: Based on the changes so far... does this make the Grotmas detachment more likely to be used?
The grotmass detachment makes all vehicle guns assault and lets you re-roll advance rolls for flying vehicles.
Battle focus seems to give more movement, let you move as reactions, and in general scamper all over the place like a cat with the 3am zoomies.
Honestly? I suspect layering these on top of each other is overkill. How fast do we need to be? It’s not like Eldar were slow to start with. Do we need to move a falcon/WS 14” + 1d6+1 move + 1d6 assault move (re-rolling if desired) and then disembark troops and melt someone’s face off? I mean, it sounds like a good time, but how big are tables, and do we need all of that?
Would it be better to take something more killy/tough/tricky as a detachment instead of doubling down on speed?
We don’t have a full picture of all the options. I think the grotmass detachment could be a lot of fun, in a balls to the walls, speed of the crack infested cheetah kinda way. Just go in full throttle and leave nothing but dust trails.
But it’s not going to have a lot of options. Just speed.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Based on the changes so far... does this make the Grotmas detachment more likely to be used?
A bit, but not really. The big benefit of this for the armoured warhost is that you can use Fade Back to re-embark in a transport. So if you use armoured warhost to deliver a squad of dragons point-blank, they'll get shot by a single thing on the next turn, and then they'll scamper back into the transport.
What *really* makes armoured warhost more appealing is that dragons are, I'm told, getting baked-in rerolls in their datasheet. So without taking a penalty for not riding in a falcon, wave serpents become a lot more attractive, and *that* means that the armoured warhost becomes more attractive.
It will be interesting to see what if any new rules are added to aspects. The 5++ is pretty useless for a T3 W1 model, and the units fold like paper, so you treat them like single use weapons expecting them to be gone once they've done their one thing.
At least with strands you got the opportunity to keep a few more alive than normal.
GW have never really mastered the eldar surviving anything, making the army all seem like highly specialised kamikaze units running in to do one thing and die.
Hellebore wrote: It will be interesting to see what if any new rules are added to aspects. The 5++ is pretty useless for a T3 W1 model, and the units fold like paper, so you treat them like single use weapons expecting them to be gone once they've done their one thing.
At least with strands you got the opportunity to keep a few more alive than normal.
GW have never really mastered the eldar surviving anything, making the army all seem like highly specialised kamikaze units running in to do one thing and die.
Yup. Eldar is a sublime army to play. The infantry go from solid to vapor in one easy step. Not stable at room temperature.
It’s one reason I play mechdar. Infantry safe and snug in transports, as long as possible. Get out when needed at key moments, hope to live more then a round, and die buying time to hold objectives. I’m OK with them being fragile. We have wraithbone units if things need to be tanky, but squishy elves are squishy. I trade their lives only when the fates call for it, and salvage what I can. But I think they play the way they should feel.
IMHO, obviously. If I wanted a slow and crunchy army, I’d bring my Ultras to the table. Fast and fragile is why I’m here. And the grav tanks…
Maybe their most faithful incarnation was their 4th ed(?) powerlists that were mostly transports with upgrades like Seer Stones, zipping around and being very tough to kill, with targeted uses of infantry when the time was right.
2nd ed Warp Spiders and Dire Avengers were pretty great though, too.
@ Wyldhunt- I respect your opinions, because you aren't wrong, but you and I are going to have to agree to disagree, because my preferences are different than yours. But I will do one last response post, knowing that I won't change your mind, and I'm okay with that.
I think that it's fair to say that, mechanically and objectively, they're not "great" in terms of performance. You don't really see them taken in competitive lists
Again, of absolutely zero relevance to me, as ALL competitive lists are 2k, which I almost never play. In a 2k list, probably impractical cuz you've got the points to pay for a broken out Psyker, a broken out Leader and a Broken out Assassin, but just absolutely the cat's meow in a 500 point game where you don't... Which I am far, far and away more likely to play. Ranges should not be constructed based solely on what works in 2k games, and from that perspective, tourney data is only 25-33% relevant (depending on whether or not you insist on following 10th's edict that all 500 point games must use Boarding Action restrictions- if you do, then the 2k game is only one of three game sizes, and if you don't it's only one of four).
There is NO confusion about the role of Voidscarred. They are Character Killers, because every single model in the unit (whether shooty or fighty) gets both Lethal and Precision on every attack (whether shooting or melee) against a single enemy unit for the duration of the game or until that unit is dead. They're also all Scout 7 to give them a greater opportunity to get into position. And those abilities STACK with all the other abilities conferred by the characters that you would rather remove.
* Shaderunner. Wants to do melee stuff, but the rest of the squad would kind of rather be shooting. And if you *do* build a bunch of normies for melee, they're going to essentially be lacklustre versions of other melee units players have access to.
Not really:
Psyker staff: Attacks: 2, Damage: D3, Anti-infantry 2+ (weak vs. Saves though)
Shaderunner: Attacks: 4. -2 AP, twin-linked (only 1 damage though)
And 8 power swords - 24 Attacks, AP-2
And all 32 of those attacks go on the leader until it's dead, because they all get precision, and even with low strength, they're lethal so crits auto-wound. And again, Scout 7 helps ensure you get to do it.
Banshees are better at close combat- they get an extra AP, a 4+ invulnerable vs. melee and advance and charge, but if you want to kill a character attached to an elite melee unit, Voidscarred are still better at it, though they also cost 60 points more, but they also have better shooting than Banshees, even when kitted for melee, because you'll still end up with an Executioner, a Neuro Disruptor and a Fusion pistol, where the best you can do with Banshees is a single Triskele.
* Seer. Wants to blast stuff. That's fine. They make sense as a character adding to the shooting of a shooty unit.
It's true that their shooting IS better than their melee- an extra attack and an extra pip of AP, but their melee does still contribute more than a base trooper.
* Spirit stone lady. Currently lets you ignore one unsaved wound, but so what? Ignoring one bolter shot per turn isn't exactly impressive.
No, but you resolve the highest damage shooting attacks first. So maybe the attack that gets reduced to zero is a Lascannon or Meltagun, which does make the ability a lil bit more useful than you're giving it credit for. This ability is ALSO useful in melee or shooting, though it won't likely protect vs. melee until you're stuck in, because the first failed save more likely to be a shooting attack... Until you're engaged.
* Sniper guy. Is kind of just an additional special gun guy, but you have to admit it's awkward having a guy with a sniper rifle following along with a bunch of sword or rapid fire gun guys.
The sniper's role is to splitfire against a more distant unit than the unit which is your primary target (ie. the unit against which ALL members of the unit have Precision), because unlike all of those lesser marksmen, the sniper is precise against EVERYBODY. So the hope is that the unit can DELETE one squad leader at 24 and soften up another at 36. And not only are they precise and lethal, they'll ignore cover because of the Falchou (though the Falchou guy must be equipped with a pistol).
And sure, it's true the higher volume of shots at 12 may be better... but perhaps wiping out your target at 24 rather than 12 will let you be in a tactically superior location- behind cover, or placed for Agenda purposes, or whatever. You'll always feel like you're giving up those rapid fire shoots, but if you've got enough to drop the leader (and ding a second leader) and stay safe, it might be worth the trade.
Of all those, the only "characters" who really feel like they might want to be together in the same unit are the seer and the spirit stone lady. I feel like you gain a ton more than you lose by splitting them out into their own datasheets.
Well, I know I'm very unlikely to convince you, but I've done my best to convince other readers that there are enough synergies and variety within this unit to keep it as is; it isn't as optimized as it could be, but there are some synergies, and it's particularly adept at killing leaders, though only ONE particular leader per unit. It's particularly good in a 500 point battle where you need all arounders, since you don't have enough points for a dedicated melee, a dedicated sniper and a solid mid-range unit.
They're super cool models as-is. I don't want to pay ~$140 extra to reinvent the wheel and put those 4 of those guys in clamshell blisters. On the contrary, having 4 characters and a squad all included in a $70 box would make them the best points-per-dollar option in the game.
And I definitely don't want to pay all that extra money so that an already overcomplicated unit can gain the option to field a character that makes it even more complicated. Especially if the new character being added looks suspicioiusly similar to someone already in the squad.
While I can respect your point of view on this, I'm not thinking of the people who like Corsairs enough to buy them, but only if they come with 4 characters in an infantry box with basic trooper dual build options- I'm concerned about the guy who loves Corsairs and wants to be able to field a small army of 5-6 distinct units so badly that he's willing to pay for it.
And I understand that any of the characters in the unit could be better versions of themselves if they were split out, but have you considered that a a dedicated Corsair Psyker model that exist IN ADDITION to Voidscarred is free to be anything, rather than just being "The Wayseeker but better" and the Assassin(s) (Dual build assassin- one build shooty one build fighty?) could be more than just "The Shaderunner, but better"?
And dude, you keep calling this unit overcomplicated, but heck man, it's one of the only kits in the game that still has enough build options that multiple instances of the same kit can look very different from each other. Its complexity is one of the things that makes it cool, and if you come for it, I just have this gut feeling that it's not long until that slippery slope also takes out the Kinband Farstalkers, the Tau Pathfinders and all the other units that kept some of their KT flare when they transitioned to 40k. And then the game just has less flavour for everyone.
And the Kroot are a great example.
Hey Kroot players, sound off: would you prefer to have the three new shaper models that we just got, or would you rather they just made Characters out of the 3 of the specialist models in the Farstalker box (but better datasheets) so you could save a few bucks?
I wouldn't mind seeing a new transport for corsairs, but simply letting them use the existing ones in a more pirate-y way would work pretty well too. I don't think I'm sold on dakka hellions. Corsasirs with jetpacks looked cool and filled the role of mobile heavy weapon guys pretty well. Plus, that would allow long-time fans to have a use for their old models again. I'm all for making factions feel distinctive, but sometimes being different just for the sake of being different can lead to less than ideal results, you know?
One of the things you suggested in a previous post was that Corsairs could get access to Drukhari transports. Now obviously, I'm just as happy if GW makes Corsair transports... But what I really want for Corsairs is access to a squad splitting transport, whether the Venom or their own thing like it. Why?
Take a look at the Voidscarred's options again, then build a squad of ten and break it into two squads of five. Because THAT makes Voidscarred STUNNING- so much so that I think you'd want the unit preserved as is.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: For future purchase considerations, once my initial special project is complete?
How are people feeling about Aspect Squad size, now we’re no longer tied to a FoC?
To blob up or MSU is normally a balance of characters and buffs.
Going MSU gives you more table space, and extra exarchs. Larger squads let leader buffs affect more bodies and gets more milage from strats. With the new battle focus, that’s a plus in the big squad department.
There may be more incentive to go MSU depending on detachment. If there is an Expert Crafter one, where each squad gets a nice bonus, that’s another pip for MSU.
At this point I’d wait for full codex leaks/reviews before considering purchase plans. Unless you just like the models, then go make it happen.
(grain of salt, I’ve only got 1 game of 10th in with my Eldar, this is general advice)
I've got 5 Reapers, 5 Banshees, 5 Dire Avengers and 10 Scorpions (Klaus Meine, Rudolph Schenker, Matthias Jabs, Francis Bucholtz, Herman Rarebell and five roadies).
But I'm aiming for a Court of the Young King, so I want all Aspect MSU and all PL. As a Narrative dude, these models will only be fielded this way when appropriate (probably vs. Slaanesh in a 2k or even 3k game that is a campaign finisher).
In smaller games, I like to field Scorpions Banshees and Dire Avengers together, because members of those units can also break out of their squads to form a KT for side missions, so those three units are intimately familiar with one another.
Due to box size, I have extra Scorpions, so I think the roadies will be helmetless and painted in a slightly different scheme to represent conversion to Ynarri.
PenitentJake wrote: I've got 5 Reapers, 5 Banshees, 5 Dire Avengers and 10 Scorpions (Klaus Meine, Rudolph Schenker, Matthias Jabs, Francis Bucholtz, Herman Rarebell and five roadies).
Why are you dissing Michael Schenker and Uli Jon Roth? Drop two roadies and add them!
Fate dice radically changed. You get a few and they are basicly 1cp discounts on specific strats tied to the number. Not a fan at all.
They call out the autarch and autarch wayleaper, but don’t mention the bike one. Expect him to be cut, sadly. But we’ll see.
The bike one is basically confirmed to be gone since he's not available to buy on the store anymore and it'll be a case of "no models, no rules". He's an old resin upgrade kit for a biker sprue and they've been systematically cutting most of these out of the armies in the 10th ed codex releases, similar to how Zagstruk and Badrukk got squatted despite being leaders for their respective specialist units. Sucks considering Shining Spears are plastic, and they would definitely benefit from having an Autarch leading them.
I'm just glad they're not locked to leading only guardians for some asinine reason.
Glad I didn’t kitbash one from the spear’s kit. Which would be casually easy to do. Basically pick the right weapon and don’t paint him white/blue.
Sucks for all the windriders out there. He was the thematic HQ pick for one of the major subfactions.
Edit:
Also the more I think about it, the saltier I get about the fate dice. We have been repeatedly told “for those who like the index, don’t worry, it’s still here” and then they change it to something unrecognizably different. The name is the same, but that’s it. Very bait-and-switch. I mean, on brand for Eldar. But grrr.
The preview articles keep showing off pics of models with doubled up gun options like Wraithlords and War Walkers, so hopefully there won't be too much what's in the box nonsense with this release, but bike Autarch, Karandras, and anything resin are at risk of vanishing.
Autarch's are aspect leaders now too, will be interesting to see what their leader abilities are and whether they are flexible enough to slot into all of the aspects (i.e. can they infiltrate with scorpions?).
Insularum wrote: The preview articles keep showing off pics of models with doubled up gun options like Wraithlords and War Walkers, so hopefully there won't be too much what's in the box nonsense with this release, but bike Autarch, Karandras, and anything resin are at risk of vanishing.
Autarch's are aspect leaders now too, will be interesting to see what their leader abilities are and whether they are flexible enough to slot into all of the aspects (i.e. can they infiltrate with scorpions?).
They'll probably try and make it so on their datasheet, depending on who they're leading, they gain the same Core Rules they do (e.g. Deep Strike for Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders, Infiltrate like you said for Striking Scorpions).
The shrine tokens are now in play (besides the use case in the warcom article).
They are on the data sheets - Warp spiders get to use it once per game to convert a hit or wound to a crit. I assume most aspects will get this, if their weapons have lethal or devastating.
Hellebore wrote: The shrine tokens are now in play (besides the use case in the warcom article).
They are on the data sheets - Warp spiders get to use it once per game to convert a hit or wound to a crit. I assume most aspects will get this, if their weapons have lethal or devastating.
Not a huge fan of the once per game tokens on the battlefield. Sure, they make for a good reminder about if you’ve used it or not, but clutter things up. And while I don’t generally have the issue some do with tactical rocks that follow heroes around so they always have a place to pose dramatically, dragging a little shrine around is a little immersion breaking.
Guess I’ll need to clean and paint the ones I have. And figure out what to use for my old squads.
Hellebore wrote: I agree, and would normally place something like that on their data sheet on my table edge as a reminder, rather than with the unit.
Also, it's not clear if you get one per unit, or one per 5. The text says 'for each token', so there may be ways to get more, or you do get 1 per 5.
Given the kits come with 1 per 5 models, it would be pretty crappy if you have to give up a second exarch AND shrine token to get 10 models...
Even if it’s just one per squad, the fact that the wording is open gives you the option for narrative hooks. I could see some “recover the relic” secondary objective that gives you a shrine token when you capture it. Or a crusade honor that a squad could earn that gives them an extra.
Farseer datasheet changes are a bit funny looking. Cannot lead a Warlock Conclave anymore (assuming that datasheet is removed), but it can join a unit if a Warlocks (plural) unit has already attached - guessing this means Guardians can have up to two Warlocks and a Farseer as leaders now?
Looking at the night spinner it lost Dev wounds as well, but gained a point of AP
ShurCan swapped sustained hits for Lethal hits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Insularum wrote: Farseer datasheet changes are a bit funny looking. Cannot lead a Warlock Conclave anymore (assuming that datasheet is removed), but it can join a unit if a Warlocks (plural) unit has already attached - guessing this means Guardians can have up to two Warlocks and a Farseer as leaders now?
That is odd. The lack of conclaves listed and the plural there raises a lot of questions. I wonder if they are going back to buy one blob of warlocks and then parse them out? Stick a question pin and that and circle back when we get more leaks covering it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Fuegan lost FNP. Leadership changed from +1 to hit to +6” range to the squad for melta. Picked up grenades and the aspect warrior tags.
Yea I bet the bike Autarch is gone, which sucks because I own one, but I bet I can just use it as legends (hopefully it can lead shining spears from legends). The farseer ability looks pretty crappy, with the make a dice a 6 only for his unit, and the +1 to his instead of re-rolls. Probably not going to take him on foot, but still need to see the bike.
I love that Autarch's can lead aspects, they should have always been able to do that, and maybe that will get me to filed the foot ones more.
PenitentJake wrote: I've got 5 Reapers, 5 Banshees, 5 Dire Avengers and 10 Scorpions (Klaus Meine, Rudolph Schenker, Matthias Jabs, Francis Bucholtz, Herman Rarebell and five roadies).
Why are you dissing Michael Schenker and Uli Jon Roth? Drop two roadies and add them!
I used the line-up from whe I saw them live at the Monsters of Rock (Pontiac Silverdome, 1988- Kingdom Come, Dokken, Metallica, Van Halen and the Scorpions).
Besides, I loved Michael's work with Robin McAuley in MSG.
Still unimpressed with their portrayal of Phoenix Lords...
They keep talking about them being solitary figures wandering the webway and fighting battles, yet here we see them only able to work if deployed with a single squad.
They should have the same unit mechanics as the primarchs - can't be targeted when near aspects and grant aspect abilities within 6".
They are ronins not squad leaders - they act as focal points in a battle for their forces to follow. Forcing them to lead an aspect unit is dumb.
I really hate how they keep crapping on PLs and buffing primarchs at the same time.
Asurmen lost lethal hits on his guns and his 3++ - oh no a T3 model with 5 wounds can't have a 3++!, but fething lion el johnson can? So tired of GW gargling primarch nuts.
Vypers are now pluralised, so will be in 1-2 squads like walkers. Support platforms now separate, wraithknights separated. Karandras gone.
Yeah, looks like Eldar got their turn to have their resin model characters squatted sadly. Karandras is gone as mentioned already alongside the Autarch on Jetbike, but also Illic Nightspear which is a big shame.
Gotta agree with the Phoenix Lord tweaks being underwhelming, I'm glad it's more unit specific than the extremely bland +1 to hit that they all gave when they joined their aspect units, but it definitely doesn't feel like they're ancient heroes of legend for Eldar, just basically slightly upscaled exarchs who are barely chapter master level even though they should be in the upper tier of fighters. Maybe not as good as primarchs but definitely better than most marines.
We'll keep seeing the endless marine buff train, but no one else gets that. Primarchs got a 50% Toughness increase while phoenix lords dropped 25% in toughness...
Ages ago I thought of an idea to show the phoenix like nature of the lords that saw each resurrection as a life cycle, with the newly born looking like they are depicted here. But at the end of the cycle they've reached demigod daemon prince like levels, becoming ubernatural beasts before fate burns them out to wait their rebirth.
It would be a pretty cool image of them evolving into the Ascended form as part of the eternal cycle of their existence.
But nah, lets keep them boring so everyone buys primarchs. GW's simping after them is tiresome.
Hellebore wrote: We'll keep seeing the endless marine buff train, but no one else gets that. Primarchs got a 50% Toughness increase while phoenix lords dropped 25% in toughness...
Ages ago I thought of an idea to show the phoenix like nature of the lords that saw each resurrection as a life cycle, with the newly born looking like they are depicted here. But at the end of the cycle they've reached demigod daemon prince like levels, becoming ubernatural beasts before fate burns them out to wait their rebirth.
It would be a pretty cool image of them evolving into the Ascended form as part of the eternal cycle of their existence.
But nah, lets keep them boring so everyone buys primarchs. GW's simping after them is tiresome.
Sadly, it's a matter of a self fulfilling prophecy where GW focuses endlessly on marines because people buy them and because they focus so much on them people keep buying and with Primarchs on both loyalist and traitor side selling like gangbusters (first in 30k, now in 40k) and having an entire edition and storyline shift over Guilliman's return, it won't be stopping any time soon.
Overall, I do feel like it's healthier that devastating wounds are being curtailed as being as ubiquitous in the Eldar lists, but ideally this is reflected in their new pricing for the units since I know they've been stacking the points on stuff like Warp Spiders since they can spike their 6's to wound, otherwise the datasheets have been pretty middling to iffy in terms of either their damage output/survivability.
Without any substantial damage mitigation, the whole army is just chaff. You could give every eldar unit lethal hits and devastating wounds and it wouldn't change that they are just T3 W1 models with no mechanisms to protect them (like negatives to hit). You could give them all invulnerable saves of their armour (ie 3++) and it still wouldn't matter that much - T3 W1 is plenty vulnerable and it overrides pretty much any other factor. Elites that vulnerable don't balance well in the marine paradigm of 40k.
Playing eldar these days feels like playing guard, you expect to see your whole army wiped out, despite protecting eldar lives as being central to their dogma. The glass cannon thing is pretty much only useful if you survive after firing. Otherwise you're just a glass kamikaze.
Over all the army should hit hard and avoid being hit. The battle focus rule doesn't even do the latter because you have to be hit before you can escape. And without special rules like devastating wounds to bypass weak elf wrists, they don't hit very hard either. I'm not a fan of special rules that bypass core rules, but they've stripped all the core rules that eldar used out and left it just a Toughness, wound and save game, which favours marines exclusively. This hasn't really changed with the new codex.
The fact that to have the army even play slightly like its fluff they needed all these rules bypasses suggests the core mechanics really fail to model the various methods of war that NON marine armies use.
Hellebore wrote: Without any substantial damage mitigation, the whole army is just chaff. You could give every eldar unit lethal hits and devastating wounds and it wouldn't change that they are just T3 W1 models with no mechanisms to protect them (like negatives to hit). You could give them all invulnerable saves of their armour (ie 3++) and it still wouldn't matter that much - T3 W1 is plenty vulnerable and it overrides pretty much any other factor. Elites that vulnerable don't balance well in the marine paradigm of 40k.
Playing eldar these days feels like playing guard, you expect to see your whole army wiped out, despite protecting eldar lives as being central to their dogma. The glass cannon thing is pretty much only useful if you survive after firing. Otherwise you're just a glass kamikaze.
Over all the army should hit hard and avoid being hit. The battle focus rule doesn't even do the latter because you have to be hit before you can escape. And without special rules like devastating wounds to bypass weak elf wrists, they don't hit very hard either. I'm not a fan of special rules that bypass core rules, but they've stripped all the core rules that eldar used out and left it just a Toughness, wound and save game, which favours marines exclusively. This hasn't really changed with the new codex.
The fact that to have the army even play slightly like its fluff they needed all these rules bypasses suggests the core mechanics really fail to model the various methods of war that NON marine armies use.
Yeah, you hit the nail on the head there when it comes to the nuance of survivability for factions that are supposed to be elite and agile rather than tough and strong that GW is used to with marines. Normally GW's most common in-game lever is just "add wounds/toughness" or armour/invuln save in bricking until they feel like it's appropriate for the unit to be suitably tanky (which is then always an arms race with how much ubiquity of weapons there are with the right damage/AP against them like plasma or weapons with devastating wound chip damage).
However, this doesn't work with Eldar obviously since it doesn't match their design philosophy with them outside of Wraith units (which coincidentally have often been the anchors for Eldar when they have reached their competitive heights in the past (e.g. Wraithknights, Wraithguard with the D weapons). I think they've been very wary of giving too many hit mods since that was an issue in the previous edition, but with the loss of initiative and how lethal shooting is, it's a mixed bag of showing agility for units besides just movement speed increases or "move, shoot, move". I think if they ported Lumineth rules of being able to activate 2 units for combat at a time might be a way of showing their speed in close combat, but in terms of surviving shooting, it's hard to say. The "no overwatch" battle focus ability is a move in the right direction but it's pretty limited when it's just against one unit, I think the reactive battle focus move should have been triggered when you're targeted rather than after you've taken damage, but otherwise I'm not sure if giving them some way to gain cover or a very baby version of obscuring would be the best sort of action since you want to give some form of interactivity from the opponent rather than a blanket "you can't shoot me" or "I'm always -1 to hit".
Harlequin troupes have had a really big glow up for their standalone datasheet. Baseline devastating wounds for all their melee weapons, fusion pistols back to D6 damage, and they get to choose a combat stance every time they fight for +1 to wound, -1 to hit or reroll a hit of 1. They might be the elite cc unit to beat in the new codex at least as far as offense goes.
Support weapons can join Guardian Squads so they get access to Battle Focus.
Hilariously, the Visarch has a dueling stance called "Mythic Stance" where its the first time I've ever seen "Anti-Epic Hero" as the caveat for his weapon profile, so he literally calls out if you have a name so he can kill you better lol.
Not sure how I feel about support weapons in defender squads. It’s like using warm eldar bodies for ablative wounds on the weapon platforms, but moreso. Not a bad thing to have hanging out on an objective.
Scatter laster picked up sustained hits 1. Looks like they are trying to focus it on the chaff clearing while the shuricannon is better for heavy infantry with lethal hits. They always had overlapping roles, will be interesting to see how the mathhammer works.
Wyldhunt wrote: I don't love limited use abilities like this. One of my big complaints lately has been the way strats only let you do the fluffy thing with one unit per turn.
I'd like to see a hybrid: Give the units a "bespoke" strat (in addition and/or instead of what theyve got) - can be used and repeated by that/those unit(s) for 0CP once per turn? round? the only rule is you have to have at least 1CP to use it, even though its free. That lets the fluffy units do the fluffy thing. It looks like they're testing it out with Guardian Defenders and Fleet of Foot. A number of units already have a bespoke rule that could/should have been done in this way. And I like the idea of making them 0CP Repeatable Strats that still require a pool of at least 1CP to represent "exhaustion" - you're just too tired or distracted or what-have-you to get the maneuver off in time kind of thing.
Edit to Add: this also helps with the interactivity of strats in that you can (theoretically) up the cost of the strat (abilities like Unorthodox Strategist from Uriel Ventris - which would probably need to be more common) and thus break the Freebie Chain.
Spiritseer
5x wraithblades with axes
Two squads of 5x Dire Avengers w/ glave+shield exarchs in both
5 warpspiders, exarch w/ blades and paired spinners.
One of the earlier rumors was guardians not DA. guess that was wrong. Easy mix up.
I’ll pass on this, but good info for people planning purchases.
All the datasheets with the detachments are leaked now, I'm assuming I can't link the direct google drive here, but I can PM the link if people want to see it.
Highlights:
Striking Scorpions indeed lost devastating wounds, now they're about proccing the Sustained hits 1 on all their melee profiles since they get crit hits on 5's if they charge. Mainly clearing mid-to light infantry.
Banshees and Shining Spears got big glow ups, banshee power swords now have anti-infantry 3+ and base 2 damage. Shining spears have anti-vehicle and anti-monster on a 3+, keep the lance rule AND are S5 AP-2 D3 base. Pretty spicy.
Dark Reaper Launchers are now S10 AP-2 3 damage a pop for their starshot missiles.
Christ, those Fire Dragons are PERFECT remakes of the originals. They got the poses and everything. Only downside I see is the price tag .
Will definitely be painting these for sure! A bit sad the Strands of Fate rule was lost though. Was looking forward to giving it a try.
Grimskul wrote: All the datasheets with the detachments are leaked now, I'm assuming I can't link the direct google drive here, but I can PM the link if people want to see it.
I'd be interested in seeing them.
Though, honestly, I'm mostly interested in the Ynnari-DE ones, as they may hint at what's to come.
Some very funny new ways to use things in the leaks.
Looks like it's quite easy to 1st turn charge with Howling Banshees (with Jain Zar). To make it even more fun, a wave serpent doing an agile manoeuvre has a decent chance of keeping up with them - a couple of detachments have "jump back in your transport at the end of the fight phase" strats. You get from one side of the board to the other, with a transport, in a manner of speaking.
Guardian power blobs! 10 Guardians, a support weapon, a Farseer or Eldrad, and up to 4 Warlocks can join forces into a single unit. I don't think people will spam this, but it looks like a really fun way to give all of these units some more options than just standing on objectives.
Dark Reapers can be in units of 10 again, have improved gun stats, can be led by an Autarch (probably better than Maugan Ra?), and will probably like being in Aspect Host to pick up sustained/lethal hits. Lhykhis can tag units for crits on 5+, so that could be a death sentence for just about anything.
Every load out on Fire Dragons looks great. Shiny new Exarch axe with either Fuegan or an Autarch looks like it could leave a dent, especially when you can use a shrine token to auto wound.
If you were to head over to the recent Auspex Tactics video on the leaks, you would find a link to an Eldar discord server where people may or may not be spamming the google drive doc link.
They've boosted harlequins significantly which is good, although still unimpressed with the anaemic special weapons. Harlequins kiss was one of the most feared melee weapons in the game, now it's just sword.
Sad to see scorpions get nerfed but I was never impressed with mandiblasters giving dev wounds anyway.
IMO though having the mandiblaster only work on a 5+ on a charge is lame as hell. It should just be 1 attack per model that strikes first always. Mucking around with sustained hits really doesn't reflect the weapon's abilities at all.
Finally split wraithknights apart which is good and they made the scattershield more of a trade off by having the -1 damage included in it, so now you're losing a 4++ and a -1 if you swap it for a gun.
I'm actually happy to see the wraith units get a bit of wraithsight back with their Ld and hit boosts if within distance of a psyker. Makes sense and they've also removed the need for a spirit seer to JOIN a wraithlord, now just needs to be nearby.
Will be interesting to see how the support weapons go - now you can have 9 of them and join some to guardian units.
Avatar lost 1 pt of Toughness but got stronger, sweeping marines on 2+. It's also cheaper. The yncarne is a LOT cheaper but also weaker, not sure what the point was there.
I do love the visarch getting 3 different attack stances, including a primarch killing one which is fun. But the PLs still suck. Would it have killed them to make them 100pts more and just give them cooler abilities?
banshees have become super specialised with only 2 attacks, but hitting on 2+, wounding infantry on 3+ and doing 2 damage each hit.
I think the scorpions are the ones that won't be taken this time, with the banshees at the top of the list.
The Ynnari Venom's new datasheet doesn't allow it to carry Corsairs - just the specified cross-over Drukhari units, Visarch and Yvraine.
That's a shame but I'm not surprised. And I also won't be surprised if the Warcom article was wrong about being able to use Corsairs
It's one of those things I'm just going to have to fix with a house rule since GW still can't get it right. But I'll nestle that House rule safely in the Crusade file- I'll just ad a 1 RP requisition that allows a Corsairs unit that has fought at least one battle with a Drukhari army to use Drukhari transports as if they possessed the Drukhari Faction Keyword.
Leaks have also revealed that the Valrak rumour of a new Corsair unit has not happened... Although that could also end up being a release for a a side game, most likely Kill Team, but also possibly a Warhammer Quest game to replace Blackstone Fortress. The former is a great source for 40k squads, the latter is great for 40k characters.
Time will tell. Still looking forward to both the dex and the sweet plastic Aspects.
Will be interesting to see how the support weapons go - now you can have 9 of them and join some to guardian units.
Has this been clarified? I've been away for much of the day (work), but earlier, people were saying that what happened was that GW swapped the names of the big weapons that are their own kit and the little thing that has always come in the Guardian box. Unless the datacards for the three versions of the big gun thing were included in the leaks and it says they can be attached,,, it may just be the name swap, which is what folks were saying ten or so hours ago.
Yep that's still a weapon platform that carries a heavy weapon with its own profile.
Amusingly the defender platform has a better melee weapon than a guardsman (hitting on 3+), while the storm guardian platform has TWO attacks hitting on 3+....
They had such a great opportunity to make an enhancement for the aspect host that let you turn 3 exarchs into veteran exarchs like the 9th ed rules did, but no...
I utilized a tactic in 9th with 10 Reapers jumping out of a Wave Serpent, then get back in. Reapers are back to 3 damage shots, can have 10 again, and there are at least 2 detachments that allow this tactic. Add in an Autarch with a Reaper Launcher and -1 CP (like a SM Captain) and it appears quite efficient.
Also, things like War Walkers adding AP or Ranger bikes giving Ignore Cover seems to give a lot of fun synergy.
Can't wait to get my hands on new models to replace all the aged metal models or 3rd party minis.
vipoid wrote: I swear every other detachment has a 'fight after death on a 4+' stratagem.
Also, gratifying to see the Eldar codex confirm ahead of time that Dark Eldar are still zero-effort and gak.
Fight after death is a “fix” for the "I go, you go" system to help with the feel bads from having your guy ganked before they could do anything. I don’t see it as something that thematically should be an Eldar thing.
I understand why they put the DE in this book, but it was always going to be a flavorless copy/paste. All the real DE tricks and fun should be in their own book. Ynarri are a weird middle ground where you get to use a little bit of everything, but not all of them.
How did people understand the Ynnari detachment ? Is it the only way to include the Ynnari, or is it that they can included in any detachment but get buffs in this one?
vipoid wrote: I swear every other detachment has a 'fight after death on a 4+' stratagem.
Also, gratifying to see the Eldar codex confirm ahead of time that Dark Eldar are still zero-effort and gak.
You may be right (I have little faith in GW's ability to do right by DE), but you can't infer anything from the sheets in the Eldar dex. The datacards for all the units included here could be radically different in their own dex.
Crimson wrote: How did people understand the Ynnari detachment ? Is it the only way to include the Ynnari, or is it that they can included in any detachment but get buffs in this one?
I'm not sure if this is a typo to FAQ'd or what, but currently it looks like their own detachment is the only way, but with unclear rules wording.
All Ynnari units have the disparate paths ability listed, but that ability only seems to allow Harlequin units to be selected in any detachment, and none of the Ynnari datasheets have the right faction keywords to be taken outside their own detachment.
I would assume if there are mistakes/unclear wordings to be clarified, that one of the following fixes would be applied:
1. The Ynnari epic heroes get Asuryani faction keyword in addition to Ynnari, or
2. Disparate Paths is updated to include more than just Harlequins, or
3. All Ynnari units lose the disparate paths ability as it does nothing and it's intentional that they are locked out of everything bar their own detachment
Just got done reviewing the codex from the leaks, and I have to say I really like it. They really leaned into the glass cannon trope for Eldar, but I am ok with that as there are a LOT of move tricks that can be done.
Personally I think the Warhost detachment is fantastic for a combined arms balanced list. All of the starts are good, most of the enhancements are good, and the extra maneuver is going to be clutch, then you get an extra inch on the increased move one, of an extra inch on the extra move, which is going to help get units out of trouble. Plus it has a move, shoot, move strat. That is the one I am going to probably use as my Eldar collection is not very large, so I don't have the models to really build into the other detachments.
But if you have the models the Skyrunner one, the Aspect One, and the Guardian one all look really good if you build into them. (I don't have any wrath units so did not look at that one)
For some of the units glow up, I really like what they did to the shining spears. I have 6 of them and I love those models so much. The change from -1 to be hit (which honestly did not help all that much when the enemies focused on them) to being able to move over terrain without the penalty to height is HUGE. They can sit behind ruins and charge with their 14' (17" with the maneuver in warhost) move. That is much better protection then -1 to hit (which you can strat to them in warhost). Then their lances are money for killing vehicles and monsters, but probably still pretty good against elite infantry. I can't wait to field these.
The war walkers being in units of 2 is great for strat efficiency.
Bikes are still good, and I still like dire avengers. People seem to be down on scorpions, but I think they can throw a bunch of weight of attacks and wear down most units, and if you put the Autarch with them with a star glave (which is WAY better now) he can add that big punch to them.
I am a little disappointed in the farseers, they don't seem all that good.
All this is points pending obviously as points will make a big difference.
I can't wait to get this book and get this army on the field.
vipoid wrote: I swear every other detachment has a 'fight after death on a 4+' stratagem.
Also, gratifying to see the Eldar codex confirm ahead of time that Dark Eldar are still zero-effort and gak.
You may be right (I have little faith in GW's ability to do right by DE), but you can't infer anything from the sheets in the Eldar dex. The datacards for all the units included here could be radically different in their own dex.
I understand why they put the DE in this book, but it was always going to be a flavorless copy/paste. All the real DE tricks and fun should be in their own book. Ynarri are a weird middle ground where you get to use a little bit of everything, but not all of them.
But my point is, they're surely copy-pastes of the statlines from the codex?
Which means the HQs are still flavourless pustules, armed with weapons that are useless against anything that isn't Infantry.
Anyway, going back to the Eldar codex, am I correct that Harlequins with Flip Belts now ignore vertical terrain but flying models don't?
Maybe the DE codex will have some good rules, but it seems akin to a restaurant serving you a dog turd sandwich, and you hoping that some expensive sauce will be enough to save it.
Fly measures the distance though the air. So you can move on the diagonal, but still need to cover the distance. If flip belts let you just ignore vertical distances, you could just move your M stat horizontally and not worry about the ups and downs.
I’d have to go find the leak with the exact wording. Might need a FAQ. Or maybe you can just leap over a 10” wall like it’s not even there…
Nevelon wrote: Fly measures the distance though the air. So you can move on the diagonal, but still need to cover the distance. If flip belts let you just ignore vertical distances, you could just move your M stat horizontally and not worry about the ups and downs.
I’d have to go find the leak with the exact wording. Might need a FAQ. Or maybe you can just leap over a 10” wall like it’s not even there…
Not just the Harlequin's flip belts, but the Shining Spears and Jain Zar too.
Nevelon wrote: Fly measures the distance though the air. So you can move on the diagonal, but still need to cover the distance. If flip belts let you just ignore vertical distances, you could just move your M stat horizontally and not worry about the ups and downs.
I’d have to go find the leak with the exact wording. Might need a FAQ. Or maybe you can just leap over a 10” wall like it’s not even there…
Not just the Harlequin's flip belts, but the Shining Spears and Jain Zar too.
Parkour elves move faster then flying ones when things are in the way.
The simulationist in me wants to call BS, but let’s just chalk this one up to Rule of Cool and walk away.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So, how are Fire Dragons looking in the leaks? Squad of five decent enough at Tank Hunting, or would you want more bods?
(Still on my first cup of coffee trying to mathhammer; take with salt)
Your fusion blaster is Assault and Melta 3, 1 shot hitting on a 3+, S9 AP-4, d6 Dam. Not bad. Exarch gets options for either better gun, or flexing to cover other roles
If you are shooting a vehicle or a monster you get full re-rolls on to hit, to wound, and damage.
So their ability got buffed from RR1s on W/D to everything. Now we can’t talks 40k, especially Eldar, without thinking about buffs. What detachment? Attaching a character?
And what are you hunting?
Below T9 light vehicles should just be molten slag. Even T9 are probably toast. Tougher stuff? Even with full rerolls, needing 5+ to wound is about half. Assuming we didn’t drop any hits (which is a bad assuptions, 3+ w/ RRs is great, but not perfect) but also ignoring the exarch and any buffs we are still getting 2ish shots to land. -4 AP is god, but still allows a save on 2+ armor, and invulns exist. But at D6 dam a pop, plus the melta bonus, with the re-roll? Ouch. Probably snuff a Pred, but not a Land Raider.
And that’s just the lads in the squad. But should probably be able to kill all but the biggest tanks. Assuming they are at full strength. Which is the rub. A squad of 5 hopping out of a falcon/WS/webway/reserves and getting the alpha strike should probably kill or mangle their target. But they are still soft little elves. How many tanks does your opponent have? They should not be the only AV arrow in the quiver. They should get the job done; they are real good at that. They are also a high value target and glass hammers.
I would still have some other AV in a list. But they are going to be one of the main sources.
Edit OK, re-reading the question is more about squad size. I think a 5 man squad should work against most stuff. If you attach a character, you can probably afford to have the exarch diversify. Without a character, I’d keep the exarch with a firepike/exarch’s fusion gun. Unless you are going titan hunting, a 10 man squad is crazy overkill. And with points in blocks these days, it’s either 5 or 10.
I'd agree with the above. Tbh the main issue will be keeping Dragons alive so they get to shoot rather than their efficiency. As a result I'd probably go with 5 man squads for higher redundancy. Although Fuegan+10 Fire Dragons and slightly above average rolls might tear through an IG Tank force.
----
Anyway I thought I'd give very brief superficial thoughts on the detachments. Very TL/DR and I'm sure you can get better analysis elsewhere. Might be interesting to prompt a discussion.
Spoilers - I don't think they are that hot. Certainly compared with the Index rules. Which might be good for balance - but is kind of weird in some cases.
Warhost. I actually think this is pretty bad - maybe even the worst one. Someone should - rightly - run in screaming "Movement wins games. Movement wins game. Movement wins games". This is true. But I'm not sure moving "some units" 1-2 inches extra per turn is that hot. Sure there will be some times when you can tag an objective or make a charge where previously you'd have been off by an inch. But Eldar are not a slow army - and that goes double with Battle Focus. If it was rerolling the D6 agile abilities rather than giving +1 it would be a lot more powerful. If you get unlucky by rolling a bunch of 1s and 2s I'm not sure adding +1 to them is really helping.
Windrider Host. I think it may well be good because the biker units in the codex look very good (and you double down on the above comment of Eldar not being a slow army). Making Windriders Battleline is interesting because I think lots of small units potentially has a scoring purpose due to their speed - even if you might also want some big units to buff up. But turning up from reserves turn 1 feels kind of marginal - given how far you'd be able to go from deployment anyway. I guess its the trade off of nullifying being shot turn 1 versus kind of limping onto the board. Being able to whisk 2 units off the table and back into reserve is the real draw. You kind of do need to have some bodies on objectives though. But maybe that's less of an issue if you just bomb around killing everything in certain areas of the table.
Spirit Conclave. Kind of non-plussed here. I feel part of the draw here is that basic Wraith units are Battleline - so you could bring up to 6 units of Wraithguard and/or Wraithblades. But I mean... do you want to? The stratagems maybe make up for it a bit - but you only have so many CP. Maybe I'm biased by playing MSU - but +1 to hit and wound against the unit that's killed a Psyker just seems kind of niche even if you are liberal with Spirit Seers and Warlocks. I guess the question is how powerful agile manoeuvres are on Wrath units. From a very superficial standpoint it feels a bit "remember when..." rather than "yeah so I went 5-0." Basically if its good its because Wraths are good.
Seer Council likewise is odd. Over the course of the game you should be able to use 6 "free" stratagems, depending on the dice you roll - and any modifiers. The stratagems should be useful - but it feels like it would be hard to build around this. You need some psykers scattered throughout your army to activate the abilities - but this feels a bit like the Warhost in being very generic. Its not really boosting your psykers.
Guardian Battlehost. Maybe I'm biased - but I kind of want this to be good, because I feel "Guardian Carpet" has been a meme since at least 3rd. (I.E. Move 20 guardians to some Marines, fluff the shooting phase, watch the Marines charge next turn, win the combat, wipe the whole squad. Cry on the internet about how Shuriken catapults should never have had 12" range.)
+1 to hit if you are on an objective - or you target an enemy on an objective should come up fairly frequently. Are Guardians/Support Weapons/Dire Avengers and/or War Walkers good? I think at least maybe? I mean people said the Chaos Cultist detachment would never work - although they are about half the price compared with Guardians. I think Storm Guardians might need some Banshees or Harlequins to help out in the counter-assault role.
Aspect Host. I was initially going to say this one was the real draw - but I don't know really. a 7/6 damage buff to Aspect Warriors and the Avatar is undoubtedly good - but I don't know whether its any better than the old index. Its annoying in some ways that you have to pick - you know if you go hits you'll roll no 1s, only to then roll a fist full on wounds.
Kind of end up thinking its not transforming anything. Much like various detachments - it might be good because Aspect Wariors/Phoenix Lords/Avatar of Khaine might well be good.
Ghosts of the Webway. Can't really comment. I mean its the "I wanna spam Harlequins" detachment. And you can. But being able to charge through enemy models? Seems like its situationally useful rather than game defining. I mean first time playing against it you might think "I can just screen like this" - but then they run through you. But then you'll go "okay, I'll screen differently, i.e. old-school bubblewrap" and then?
A bit like a lot of these choices it seems like the power is "would you like 6 units of Harlequins and 3 of the characters". If yes, great. If no... well, this is a thing.
Which perhaps brings us to the last and possibly least of "this is a thing" in Ynnari.
You have to bring Yvraine or the Yncarne. Well, if you were running Ynnari why not?
You can bring Dark Eldar... but why bother? I guess that's a bit harsh - and it might be worth exploring a curated DE list with Battle Focus and these stratagems rather than what the DE get themselves. But idk. I'm not really a fan of pain tokens but I feel they are necessary to get any kind of punch. Wyches look very insipid. Also not really sure you'd take Incubi over the new Banshees - although potentially with Yvraine or an Archon giving you wound rerolls they aren't that far apart. Outside this detachment you could buff up the Banshees with Jain Zar though. The issue I feel with attachments is you are making quite an expensive unit that has to really hit something to have an impact rather than a relatively cheap throw-away missile.
But then we get onto the abilities - and I'm afraid the issues are obvious. They don't really scale.
I.E.
If your opponent kills something in their shooting phase, then at the end you can select one unit (no Wraith Knights) and make a normal move. See Warhost for "movement wins games" - but... eh?
When being shot you'd normally be able to select one unit that was hit and make a Fade back agile manoeuvre. Which lets you move D6+1 (or D6+2 in a Warhost). With Ynnari you can move that unit into engagement range of the enemy who shot you. Basically... what? If some chaff unit would tickle you then you can move into combat with it. But... presumably opponents just won't shoot that unit in that case. Or they will because they expect to delete the unit.
Finally, in the fight phase you can select one unit which isn't at full strength and give it fight first. Clearly there are some scenarios where this is quite nice - but it feels like your opponent will see it from a mile away.
So it all adds up to being kind of poor. Again - maybe I'm biased because of my MSU hat - but buffing one unit when you start with say 15~ on the table just doesn't feel useful. The fact its the same buff at 1000 points and 3000 points also feels strange given how much they've tweaked it for other detachments.
I think it might be "okay" just because across the breadth of options you can probably get enough "good datasheets" to make an army. But that's not so exciting. Arguably it goes for all the detachments.
There's almost certainly a 11/10 Eldar list waiting to break the game (as per... almost every edition 40k has ever had) - but its not as obvious. Which is probably a good thing.
Lathe Biosas wrote: How does the Dark Eldar /Harlequin "Wager" Grotmas list stand up to using Harlequins and Dark Eldar in the new Aeldari codex?
Cynically its probably better if you are going to strictly stay to DE/Harlequin units.
Not played it myself - but on paper I can see why people are playing the Grotmas detachment with no Harlequins. Use the Conductor and viola, your whole army gets reroll 1s to hit and wound until you kill something. And then in your next command phase discard a pain token to set it up again.
Against certain MSU lists its not going to be that hot as you very quickly lose the bonus (playing without a bonus? That's so Realspace Raiders) - but its something. You could also add in some Harlequin units as its not as if they are that bad.
I kind of feel the Ynnari detachment is basically "Codex Yncarne". If the Yncarne can carry you, its worth it. If it can't? Its probably a bad detachment. In any case I'm not sure you'd want to take many DE choices at all versus the Eldar options.
I think Vipoid's gone through it in the news bit of the forum but to echo.
What do you get with DE?
Kabalites are okay I guess. You can do the usual "shooty models in a venom/basic guys screen a home objective." play. Or I guess take the whole squad in a Raider. So far so average. You lose power from pain which hurts the Dark Light bus concept.
Wyches are woeful and the Succubus is a 45 (presumably - I guess she could go down to about 20) point joke. Inexplicably one of the Ynnari relics is 30 points to give her rerolls to wound. I mean... presumably that will get updated with the new points (or later) but how much acid are they on? I wondered if the Datasheet snuck in devastating wounds or something while I wasn't looking (on 1 damage attacks who'd care) but no. She's significantly less dangerous than a Howling Banshee Exarch with an Executioner or Mirror Swords into anything but the weakest of chaff.
Reavers are cheap and cheerful so might have a place. But - and I guess its moving up a weight class - are you going to bother when you can take Skyweavers and especially perhaps Shining Spears? Who can actually punch stuff rather than providing an unreliable sprinkling of mortal wounds and maybe tickling some guardsmen to death. Its not as if Eldar are suffering for "objective scoring units". Take basic Windriders and have some actual shooting.
Which basically leaves Incubi. Who are probably "fine". But Banshees are probably at least as good, if not better now. Yvraine+Incubi in a transport maybe has a bit of legs (reroll wounds helping that ever more obsolete S4), but its not exactly setting the world on fire. A blob of 10 Incubi+Yvraine+Visarch would have to walk across the table, because there ain't no Eldar transport big enough to handle this level of power. Troupes are also potentially a good assault unit - although the fact they don't get the Ynnari keyword messes up some rules interactions.
I guess my slight cynical view is all this could be "fun" in a relatively fluffy, not all that serious game. But if you are focusing on hard crunch, there's better stuff out there.
Tyel wrote: There's almost certainly a 11/10 Eldar list waiting to break the game (as per... almost every edition 40k has ever had) - but its not as obvious. Which is probably a good thing.
It’s certainly been a genuine curse upon Eldar players.
Want an effective army, where all the units interact well? 3rd-7th (when I last regularly played, more or less) you can do that. But it’s this one specific build, with three or four more or less required units. Because the internal balance of the Codex is right on the wonk. But it is super powerful, to the point some opponents just won’t stand a chance.
And it was never the same list edition to edition. And lead to an incorrect perspective that Eldar were just cheesy.
Were there powergamer Eldar players? Yes. Of course there were. But there were also just…Eldar Players, forced to playing one particular list, as otherwise they’d get their arse kicked.
For 8th and 9th perspective on that, you’ll need to find someone better informed than I on those editions. Which to be honest, shouldn’t be all that hard, as I know pretty much nowt. 10th the jury is out, as I’ve still time to get with the programme there.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:So, how are Fire Dragons looking in the leaks? Squad of five decent enough at Tank Hunting, or would you want more bods?
If you can get them into melta range, 5 guys can be expected to kill a predator sized tank, or get a land raider sized tank down to it's last 2-3 wounds. With Fuegan along anything smaller than a super heavy is likely toast. Not too keen on an Autarch leader for them, not much cheaper than just adding more bodies. Jumping out of an agile manoeuvred Wave Serpent then jumping back in again via a strat seems like a handy way to go tank hunting. Don't expect much if you're shooting at longer ranges.
SamusDrake wrote:One thing I'd like to check is the unit size for Troupes. In the Index it's...
1 Lead Player
4-11 Players
...but wondering if thats been changed to...
1 Lead Player
5-11 Players
...for the codex. Its a very minor detail but it would be nice to know if anyone has an advanced copy of the codex.
Unit size options on the points list are 5/6/11/12 models, looks like you are still expected to steal a model from the kit to make the Troupe Master.
There’s probably a reason why, so forgive me in advance, but those commenting on my Fire Dragon question have, pretty understandably, focussed on their tank hunting prowess. And fair enough, as that’s their forte. And of course I didn’t include this thought in the original question.
But, in an age of multiple wound Marines, CSM and Tau Battlesuits? Do they have a greater ubiquity for slagging small squads of say, Terminators and Gravis?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: But, in an age of multiple wound Marines, CSM and Tau Battlesuits? Do they have a greater ubiquity for slagging small squads of say, Terminators and Gravis?
I think your opponent will certainly get nervous in case you get good dice - but its not great as you don't get all the rerolls. (There are things you can do but lets assume this in isolation).
So for example 5 shots into Terminators.
5*2/3*2/3*1/2=an average of 1.11 attacks goes through. If you are in Melta range (6") that's a dead terminator. If you are not you need a 3+ to kill a terminator.
Against say Aggressors its twice as good as they have no invul and only a 3+ save. But outside of melta range again the Aggresors get a "kinda" 5+++ because you need to roll a 3 to get a kill. So if only 2 attacks go through its quite easy for you to end up just killing 1. Which still isn't really a bad return on your shooting - but now your fire dragons are out and probably asking to be deleted relatively cheaply next turn.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: There’s probably a reason why, so forgive me in advance, but those commenting on my Fire Dragon question have, pretty understandably, focussed on their tank hunting prowess. And fair enough, as that’s their forte. And of course I didn’t include this thought in the original question.
But, in an age of multiple wound Marines, CSM and Tau Battlesuits? Do they have a greater ubiquity for slagging small squads of say, Terminators and Gravis?
Dark Reapers are strength 10/damage 3 now, kill those units from 4x the range.
What do you get with DE?
Kabalites are okay I guess. You can do the usual "shooty models in a venom/basic guys screen a home objective." play. Or I guess take the whole squad in a Raider. So far so average. You lose power from pain which hurts the Dark Light bus concept.
Wyches are woeful and the Succubus is a 45 (presumably - I guess she could go down to about 20) point joke. Inexplicably one of the Ynnari relics is 30 points to give her rerolls to wound. I mean... presumably that will get updated with the new points (or later) but how much acid are they on? I wondered if the Datasheet snuck in devastating wounds or something while I wasn't looking (on 1 damage attacks who'd care) but no. She's significantly less dangerous than a Howling Banshee Exarch with an Executioner or Mirror Swords into anything but the weakest of chaff.
Reavers are cheap and cheerful so might have a place. But - and I guess its moving up a weight class - are you going to bother when you can take Skyweavers and especially perhaps Shining Spears? Who can actually punch stuff rather than providing an unreliable sprinkling of mortal wounds and maybe tickling some guardsmen to death. Its not as if Eldar are suffering for "objective scoring units". Take basic Windriders and have some actual shooting.
Which basically leaves Incubi. Who are probably "fine". But Banshees are probably at least as good, if not better now. Yvraine+Incubi in a transport maybe has a bit of legs (reroll wounds helping that ever more obsolete S4), but its not exactly setting the world on fire. A blob of 10 Incubi+Yvraine+Visarch would have to walk across the table, because there ain't no Eldar transport big enough to handle this level of power. Troupes are also potentially a good assault unit - although the fact they don't get the Ynnari keyword messes up some rules interactions.
I guess my slight cynical view is all this could be "fun" in a relatively fluffy, not all that serious game. But if you are focusing on hard crunch, there's better stuff out there.
I'm reminded of 7th edition when DE and Eldar could be allies.
Initially, many DE players thought 'Hey, this kinda cool, I could include a couple of Eldar units in my DE army.'
Then the thought gradually turned to 'Hang on, why am I using all these DE units when Eldar units do the same thing but vastly better?'
And so, armies that had started as 'Dark Eldar army with a few Eldar units' quickly became 'Eldar armies with a few DE units.'
I mention it because the Eldar codex gives very similar vibes.
Not that it was much different in the Index era of 10th. But I think having Eldar and DE units in the same book has inadvertently highlighted just how anaemic and feeble the latter really are in this edition.
Needs finer details picking out, but that’s a job for tomorrow. I’d more now, but I wanted to get the basing goop down, as the bright base was wonking out the other colours.
Sarigar wrote: I utilized a tactic in 9th with 10 Reapers jumping out of a Wave Serpent, then get back in. Reapers are back to 3 damage shots, can have 10 again, and there are at least 2 detachments that allow this tactic. Add in an Autarch with a Reaper Launcher and -1 CP (like a SM Captain) and it appears quite efficient.
Also, things like War Walkers adding AP or Ranger bikes giving Ignore Cover seems to give a lot of fun synergy.
Can't wait to get my hands on new models to replace all the aged metal models or 3rd party minis.
They are recylcing quite a bit of the SM Codex for Aeldari it would appear. Adding AP and Ignore Cover are a couple of the Storm Speeders.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So, how are Fire Dragons looking in the leaks? Squad of five decent enough at Tank Hunting, or would you want more bods?
Fire Dragons have always been my favorite Aspect. And, unless they've become Battleline, I'm limited to 3 squads of them. So yeah, I'm taking 3 full 10x units. Just like I've been doing these past few editions.
If I could take them as BL? I'd run 6 units of them. Maybe x5 strong, maybe x10 strong, maybe some combo of x5/x10....
"Emerges from the web-way after almost 2 years, eager too prove his worth too the craft worlds once more."
Well that codex release took awhile! Just started dusting off my models after maybe playing 10-20 games with the naked data cards? Just spent 4 hours rating, reviewing and going over the printed changes. I will make a later post after the dust has settled. I still have a huge Shelf of shame that I fully intend too chip away at after I build 1 or 2 what I consider "good" lists.
For now I will not talk about Ynnari they will require an entirely different post.
Lets be honest.... after looking everything over, Craft Worlds Eldar got hit hard!
Some of our best combos were either de-buffed, or completely removed! Several "prominent" stratagems are now locked behind detachments with seemingly no rhyme or reason for it. I hate comparing past editions, but in 9th our bread and butter was fire and fade, 3 linking fire prisms, and Baharroth with10 swooping hawks jumping out right "After" shooting. We lost 2 phoenix lords, feelnopain on fugen, 1 toughness on our wraith units, BOTH our 3+ inv save units! Wraith guard nerffed too 5 man squads! My gosh darn warp gate!!!
"deep breath"
I'm not here too talk about the losers. I'm here too talk about the winners, the units we can not live without. regardless of what detachment your playing. ill throw my hat into the ring 1st sense i just went over all the data cards. I do know about the Major point adjustments coming with the codex and the printed point amounts im getting in my codex will not be correct.
Here is what stood out in my mind after 4 hours.
Harlequins all having devastating wounds is insane, 2 wave serpents or, 2 star weavers full of troupe with some HQs? I cant even imagine the damage from just 1 or 2 charges.
Wave serpents are actually a little beefy now? i might need to dust mine off, iv been using falcons and star weavers for so long.
Fugen with 5-10 fire dragons running around in a falcon/wave serpent also stood out to me, the reroll on Everything vs vehicle/monster cant be ignored. and his range buff just makes popping melta off that much easier! Also his new model is insane! and with the right detachment you can pop them in and out of a transport!
I'm not sure on the autarch model/skyrunner at the moment.... on paper it looks really good, free stratagems/enhancements on any aspect warrior squad combo....I need more time with this one but it shows promise.
Probably the biggest stand out to me were the buffs too Eldrad Ulthran. He is, 100% hands down, our go to competitive warlord now. +1 cp per turn, AND an auto working doom?! I'm leaning towards a storm guardian bodyguard for sticky obj. However, the new buffs too warlock conclaves give the squad -1 too wound! add in the singing spear shots, you got some crazy damage out of 5 models. I hope the warlocks get a point drop though. maybe 35 each?
my personal favorite change was the heal ability on spirit seers. Now it can heal the wraith unit D3 if no unit is dead, or attached too a lord/knight. You know im gona be rocking 3 of those bad boys! especially with all wraith units wanting "psychic guidance" now.
D-sythes are flamers again!! but only at a strength of 7? oh boy, i like it, but I don't love it. However! they can fallback and shoot again, so throwing them into combat too keep them safe and tie up a squad is an option again without spending CP. lets all have a moment of silence for the runes of fate 10 block reactive fire death blob that 10 wraith guard with a spirit seer. YOU WILL BE MISSED!
Wraith guard smack a bit harder with 2D, but again only 5 man squads now, im really leaning towards the classic transport wave serpent with these guys, pop a spirit seer on them, throw in some fire dragon transports. get the melta and flamers right up in there face! a new stratagem allows a wraith squad to get sticky obj, 100% i will use this almost every other turn. giving wraith units the Storm guardians ability is absolutely broken.
my go to deep strike screening units were either some weapon platforms in the back, or some ranger squads, and long range bright lance esc shooters in the back, anyone else seeing some cheaper screening units? rangers are 55, warlocks are 45? lets hope we see some point drops!!
We did not get our alpha strike falcons! But 3 of them deep striking turn 2 with who knows what sounds very good, throw in some other speedy squads, maybe the Avatar of war? and you have a pretty good turn 2 charge. it might get wiped out the following turn, but still could be epic!
again I'm just commenting on things that popped out at me, I have no played every list Eldar has too offer, but i do like chasing Meta lists for each detachment.
Thanks for reading! <3 "steps back into the warp portal"
That reminds me of the classic Eldar curse: horrific internal balance. Obviously we will need to wait for the day one FAQ/points adjustment, as we know they are coming. But it’s always a roller coaster of who’s on top for what edition. We can normally put some meta-crushing tournament list down, but is it scatbikes? Wraithknights? Serpent spam? Warp Spiders? What’s the hotness going to be with this one? What goes back on the shelf?
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I’ve always put my Fire Dragons in a Falcon. For a few reasons. One, I love the Falcon and want to get it to the table, and two, I never fielded a squad of FDs big enough to need the serpent. I guess 3, cloudstrike when you could use them like drop pods, but not sure if I actually did that when it was a thing. With FDs getting full re-rolls against vehicles and monsters, the boost the Falcon gives to disembarking infantry is a little redundant. But not completely. If you are using them to hunt elite infantry, the RR on the wounds will mitigate one point of failure on the path of turning them into pairs of smoking boots. And there are a lot of units out there that could use a fusion gun to the face.
Overread wrote: Horrible internal balance sounds like normal GW balancing issues for any army
You are not wrong, but it feels like Eldar get hit worse then others. We have wild pendulum swings where units go from broken to dumpster fire with no warning. We can always take top tables at tournaments, but what gets us there is very mercurial.
For example, the Falcon has played second fiddle to the Wave Serpent for huge chunks of history. Compare it outside of the codex, it wasn’t bad. But internally? WSs were tougher, held more, didn’t take a FoC slot, hit harder, etc. And the point difference didn’t remotely reflect that. Poor internal balance.
What bugs me about the wyches is that not only did they lose their special melee weapons, the unit leader lost her melee weapon too. The similar bits (whip and power sabre) have bespoke rules if equipped by kabalite or reaver leaders, but not if equipped a leader of the melee unit that would need it most! And this does not annoy me only for game balance reasons, but for modelling reasons as well. I am pretty obsessed with WYSIWYG, and it bugs me hella lot that the obviously power sword looking thing my wych leader carries does nothing special whilst exactly similar looking weapon carried by my other units does.
GW has given Tyranid warriors loads of close combat weapons over the years; even addeding them to the kit - this edition they have 1 generic "close combat" weapon profile and that's it.
GW seems to be on a huge spree in both AoS and 40K of making close combat very simple. Single profiles even if they've more than one weapon type.
I don't know fully why - my theory is by reducing options within 1 kit to a single profile it means they can create more kits with different profiles for each unit; but it feels somewhat sad to see loads of cool - still on sprue 0 choices go to 0 variation
Overread wrote: GW has given Tyranid warriors loads of close combat weapons over the years; even addeding them to the kit - this edition they have 1 generic "close combat" weapon profile and that's it.
GW seems to be on a huge spree in both AoS and 40K of making close combat very simple. Single profiles even if they've more than one weapon type.
I don't know fully why - my theory is by reducing options within 1 kit to a single profile it means they can create more kits with different profiles for each unit; but it feels somewhat sad to see loads of cool - still on sprue 0 choices go to 0 variation
But it is not consistent even within one army. Like in this instance the same melee weapon bit has bespoke rules for a shooty unit but not for the melee unit!
I don't really mind the "generification" of close combat, because its only really worthwhile if it gives the unit some degree of functionality it lacked before. Which usually means going up a weight class. (Chaff->MEQ->Monstrous infantry->Tanks).
But I also think there's this general recognition that assault units can't be as specialised as shooting, because getting them across the table, and making a successful charge, is harder than declaring "I shoot my lascannons at the tank, and my bolters at the guardsmen." You need - with certain caveats - to theoretically put out at least respectable damage into most targets rather than having very narrow niches. Otherwise its too easy for the unit to end up stranded. (Unless its got super speed/guaranteed charges, which brings its own balance problems.)
So I can sort of understand the Wych WYSIWYG complaints. Certainly no idea why they can't have an Agonizer when its across the rest of the codex. All my Hekatrixes are modelled with Agonizers because obviously they are.
But when (IIRC - I may be getting editions confused here) Hydra Gauntlets were rerolls to wound and I think Razorflails were rerolls to hit...you've got to feel "why bother"? I mean its still a small number of low S low AP attacks. In a Kill Team/Necromunda skirmish game where each model can forge a narrative then sure go nuts. In 40k? Its just noise lost across potentially hundreds of models and thousands of rolled dice. So I don't think it matters that much. I'm happy enough with it just being a modelling choice - much like Tyranid Warriors.
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Also to put the DE hat on, seeing Eldar players lament the power variance in their codex always feels a bit rich.
Cue 7th edition. "No you don't understand, Wraith Knights, Scatbikes, Warp Spiders, arguably still Wave Serpents are 10 or 11/10. But Storm Guardians also feature in the codex and they are 3/10".
"Okay - but I'm playing DE. My whole codex apart from maybe Reaver spam only reaches 5/10 at best. Same for Tyranids outside flying Hive Tyrant spam. Orks and Guard are in a diabolical state etc"
I mean - its not really the same issue. If you are still running around with that Footdar army you mostly put together while partying in 1999 and bitter about it's performance circa 2015, you could always go and buy some new stuff.
I guess it can be lame. Tau players can arguably complain that for about a decade any problems with the faction were answered by GW going "buy 3 Riptides. No. Seriously. Buy 3 riptides". And maybe you just don't like the model. But the option was there - and if you were complaining as the years rolled by it started to be on you.
Tyel wrote: But when (IIRC - I may be getting editions confused here) Hydra Gauntlets were rerolls to wound and I think Razorflails were rerolls to hit...you've got to feel "why bother"? I mean its still a small number of low S low AP attacks. In a Kill Team/Necromunda skirmish game where each model can forge a narrative then sure go nuts. In 40k? Its just noise lost across potentially hundreds of models and thousands of rolled dice. So I don't think it matters that much. I'm happy enough with it just being a modelling choice - much like Tyranid Warriors.
This is fair. Though, as with so many things, it circles back to the issue of 'the current rules suck, so we should just scrap it entirely rather than improving it'.
I mean, even if you don't want rules for all three of the special Wych weapons, could we not at least have one upgraded profile that any/all of them represent?
Tyel wrote: Also to put the DE hat on, seeing Eldar players lament the power variance in their codex always feels a bit rich.
Cue 7th edition. "No you don't understand, Wraith Knights, Scatbikes, Warp Spiders, arguably still Wave Serpents are 10 or 11/10. But Storm Guardians also feature in the codex and they are 3/10".
"Okay - but I'm playing DE. My whole codex apart from maybe Reaver spam only reaches 5/10 at best. Same for Tyranids outside flying Hive Tyrant spam. Orks and Guard are in a diabolical state etc"
On this point, it's also much easier to justify taking some bad/mediocre units that you like when the rest of your list is strong enough to keep you in the game.
Lets be honest.... after looking everything over, Craft Worlds Eldar got hit hard!
Some of our best combos were either de-buffed, or completely removed! Several "prominent" stratagems are now locked behind detachments with seemingly no rhyme or reason for it. I hate comparing past editions, but in 9th our bread and butter was fire and fade, 3 linking fire prisms, and Baharroth with10 swooping hawks jumping out right "After" shooting. We lost 2 phoenix lords, feelnopain on fugen, 1 toughness on our wraith units, BOTH our 3+ inv save units! Wraith guard nerffed too 5 man squads! My gosh darn warp gate!!!
Not sure what you're on. Also, 2 Phoenix Lords? Only Karandras is missing from the codex.
Shining Spears finally became good, Dire Avengers are a legit menace now, the Lhykhis-Spider blob exists now, Banshees are much better into their preferred targets, Reapers got a pip of strength, and that's just what I can think of re: the Aspect Warriors.
vipoid wrote: On this point, it's also much easier to justify taking some bad/mediocre units that you like when the rest of your list is strong enough to keep you in the game.
Yeah - I mean we saw that at the start of 10th. Eldar Lists would generally spend 80-90% of their points on a certain list of units - and the rest of their points were a free (or at least flexible) pick.
To the point where there was a joke that top players had a bet going to get every Eldar unit into a tournament winning list.
There's a danger of becoming a weird White Knight on this - but I think GW is getting better at balance than they used to be. If a unit is off by 20 points its not the end of the world to include one. Whereas in previous editions you had units which seemed to be playing a different game and couldn't interact with units at the top of the meta.
I think the negative side of it is that this codex really highlights the breadth of Eldar as a faction. And DE look like a narrow, mutilated thing by comparison.
But then I've always thought Eldar were kind of special in that regard. Space Marines and Orks have comparably large rosters, but its hard I think to get the variety of build. I keep have this fantasy of some "all the dakka" Ork list, but I don't think even with the Takitikal Brigade it objectively works.
Whereas here you can spam Guardians, Aspect Warriors, Wraths or Jetbikes - and it feels like you'd at least be "okay".
Tuesday can't come fast enough- I want Goonhammer's Crusade review. I'm curious to see whether they've improved the Path system; whether they keep the Harlequin specific content, and what they've done for Ynarri content. I'd also like to see them through some Requisitions or Relics toward Corsairs.
PenitentJake wrote: Tuesday can't come fast enough- I want Goonhammer's Crusade review. I'm curious to see whether they've improved the Path system; whether they keep the Harlequin specific content, and what they've done for Ynarri content. I'd also like to see them through some Requisitions or Relics toward Corsairs.
The Crusade rules are floating around the web - though not GH's summary yet.
Ynnari get a requisition to manifest the Yncarne after you lose a battle if you have Yvraine in your roster. Lets you add the Yncarne for free (without counting towards Supply Limit) until you finish your current Guiding Fate.
Harlequins get their own set of Battle Traits and a couple exclusive relics.
Nothing for Corsairs - but that might show up in White Dwarf after the new Corsair units get released (hopefully and eventually).
I have a hard time reading the leaked documents- the page glare and curvature in photos combined with either small images, or those that distort a bit when you blow them up... I usually prefer to wait.
But' it sounds like the performances that Harlies used to have are gone, which is a shame because they were my favourite part of the Crusade content from 9th.
Having the Yncarne join as a wandering "brute unit" is interesting, but there was a whole subsystem for them in 9th, though I found it weak. Ynarri are a weird faction for Crusade since the only actual Ynarri models are named, and therefore can't progress... And the army literally cannot be fielded without them because there's no generic leader who is allowed to be a Warlord.
The other thing that I might be able to count on is White Dwarf: they've put out excellent Crusade content so far for Kroot and Sisters, and the Genestealer Cult stuff is good too... So they may fill in any gaps the codex leaves.
I suspect I'm going to have to house rule the heck out of this thing to make it work in a campaign if these factions are in. For sure we'll have Asuryanni, Drukhari and Corsairs involved, but Ynarri and the 'Quins might not need to be a part of the narrative.
Played a 2000 point game vs Salamanders. I didn't take an overly competitive list but things I wanted to see how it performed and how the new Battle Focus works. I used the Aspect Host detachment.
Asurmen and 10 Dire Avengers are really good. Keep the Wave Serpent protected a bit so they can jump back in.
5 Fire Dragons. I put them in a Falcon and utilized Rapid Ingress to ensure they get in Melta range. Opponent used Smoke which does make a difference. I first hit the tank with a War Walker to gain additional AP making AoC a bit useless. They destroyed a medium tank but barely as Smoke mattered. Mulling this over.
Dark Reapers and Maugan Ra in a Falcon. Not sure about Maugan Ra but he is only 100 points. I like this unit a lot and War Walkers giving them an additional AP is solid. In Aspect Host, I spent 1 CP so they get back into a Falcon.
Autarch with Scorpions. Hits pretty well on the charge but then the unit is wrecked.
Harlequins. A block of 10 charging puts out a solid number of Mortal Wounds.
Brightlances. I mixed up my weapons on my vehicles so see if they are worth it. Just stick to Brightlances when you have the option. Shame.
Crimson Hunter. I like it. It has the Aspect Warrior keyword so you can reroll 1s to hit or wound in the Aspect detachment. I think 160 points feels right for the LOS perk with 2 Brightlances and a Pulse Laser.
I've been facing Whirlwinds lately and with Aeldari, this will be a huge concern. New IG will likely showcase some indirect fire. And the mirror match may have indirect fire. For me, this is a factor as things like Eldrad with Guardians and MSU Aspect Warriors are very vulnerable.
Still learning but did find some units that will stay in my army.
Were there powergamer Eldar players? Yes. Of course there were. But there were also just…Eldar Players, forced to playing one particular list, as otherwise they’d get their arse kicked.
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Yeah, but that is like for everyone. With the difference that eldar optimal builds are, more often then not more powerful then what other players can take. Even small things the codex does better then other. For example the stormlance doesn't allow people to run outridders as troops, nor does it buff the bikes or make them good. The "wright" detachment allows wright stuff to be troops. etc. Those are not mind breaking Early edition game breaking rules, but eldar are just given them like that. For marines you can't have troop terminators or bikes, and there is more people who want to play those armies, then all eldar.
What is nice that the codex is nothing like the early index. Great thing. because that is not how eldar codex were in 8th and 9th. And there is a lot of detachments, like a lot a lot, and there is no only one is actualy playable, or you should only play this one specific craftworld, because everything else is just worse. But always eldar players find the state of 50% win rates and just a good codex, or even a very good codex, not good enough.
Still codex has everything rules, stats, and if points don't cripple it, it will be very good for end of 10th ed.
Thanks for the points. Are these the digital or from the book? I did not see the digital anywhere.
I knew Shining Spears would go up, but 30 for 3 is a lot. Also I did not see windriders on here, are they the same? Also Scorpions going up is surprising as they lost dev wounds.
Some of them are changing because the role of the unit is significantly changing too - Wayleaper has gone from lone op to being attachable to spiders & hawks so can't do the lone op shenanigans anymore.
Its old news, and true for a variety of twin-linked things - but I hate that twinned shuriken catapults are just a shuriken catapult with rerolls to wound.
I've liked that (the reality was often... questionable) if you squinted there was an argument for "Shuriken catapult jetbikers" (as Isha intended)- due to the extra movement of being assault. With 4 shots, you weren't a bazillion miles off the performance of scatter lasers or shuriken cannons. But now its just mathematically doing about half damage into anything vaguely normal.
A little meta dependent - but spam Shuriken Cannons and move on.
Really hope in 11th they review some of the weapon stats across the game. (Or Idk, the DE Codex - come on GW you know you are listening.)
I just watched the premium game on Table Top Tactics, and if anyone is a member I highly recommend watching it (if not you should join, they do great content for relatively cheap monthly fee, although I am a life time member). Lawrence shows exactly why Eldar will be a very powerful army in the hands of experienced players with all the move shenanigans they have. Someone earlier on this thread commented that the Eldar are the epitome of "movement wins games". Well, movement does win games, period. Watching and experienced player like Lawrence use the battle focus and the Sear Council movement tricks shows just how disruptive and game changing such tricks are. Reactive moves are probably one of the best rules in the game, and most of the Eldar datasheets have enough raw power on them that you don't necessarily need a bunch of damage buffs from the detachment/Army rule. Yes, the old rules were more simple, as they were basically "my big guns are super efficient, and I can guarantee some results, especially [devastating wounds]", but when used correctly the new rules are going to be much better. Yes also, it is going to suck for new players, as Eldar will required a lot of mental load and foresight thinking, which I am cool with as not every army should be simplistic, and some should have some complexity to them, Eldar being a classic one.
I think that the Sear Council, Warhost, and Aspect detachments will be very good. I think the Guardian, Jet bike and Wraith could be very good as well, I am not sure yet. I am super excited to play this book, I don't think I have been this excited to play a new book in a long while (like 6th edition Eldar).
If anyone gets games in I would love to see posts on them and get some more idea of how the army is working on the table, not theory hammer, and when I finally get the book and get to play I will post.
Also should we start a new Tactics type thread for 10th Codex Eldar? (Sorry I use Eldar as I have been playing since second, and they will always be Eldar to me, lol).
What army right now, if played at a serious or normal level isn't hard to master for a new player. Even the simple one dimensional ones are hard to play. Marines, especialy non ultramarines, are a slog to play and if not build correctly they just don't work. Same goes for CSM, the more themed the marine the hard to play properly and to learn, because a lot of games right now end with "you did mistake X and you are not playing a hard counter to me. Welcome to the 90 to 30 zone". And the more elite it gets with stuff like knights, custodes or GK the worse it gets.
What eldar did get is a lot of quality of life options, not even strickt power ones, that let you play the army you want. There are a ton of marine players who would like to play a DW or terminator army, but they can't. WS got the kick in the nads treatment. It is a rare thing for a codex to come out and then keep (orks and GSC are good example of that) a good way of playing with more then one detachment. And eldar somehow got 8 lol and didn't get BA/Ad mecha initial points treatment. But in the end saying that an eldar codex is full of powerful options, is like saying that IF are yellow.
5 Dark Reapers (1/5 painted)
5 Dire Avengers (Fully painted)
5 Howling Banshees (already 4/5 painted)
5 Wraithguard (fully painted)
6 Windriders (currently on the desk waiting for primer)
1 Wraithlord (fully painted)
I wish the detachments were more like the SM style where one could take the Iyanden-themed detachment and still have some of the stratagems affect other units than Wraiths. As it is, I'm going Warhost. That said, I'm very pleased with what I've seen of the 'dex and it looks like it'll be a lot of fun to drive.
5 Dark Reapers (1/5 painted)
5 Dire Avengers (Fully painted)
5 Howling Banshees (already 4/5 painted)
5 Wraithguard (fully painted)
6 Windriders (currently on the desk waiting for primer)
1 Wraithlord (fully painted)
I wish the detachments were more like the SM style where one could take the Iyanden-themed detachment and still have some of the stratagems affect other units than Wraiths. As it is, I'm going Warhost. That said, I'm very pleased with what I've seen of the 'dex and it looks like it'll be a lot of fun to drive.
Looks cool. You don't have any Warwalkers? They seem really really good. I love the banshees. They are going to be good in that dex for awhile
xeen wrote: Thanks for the points. Are these the digital or from the book? I did not see the digital anywhere.
I knew Shining Spears would go up, but 30 for 3 is a lot. Also I did not see windriders on here, are they the same? Also Scorpions going up is surprising as they lost dev wounds.
wind riders 80/160 - looks like max squad size 6 now.
I agree new forum needed with new name maybe on the 1st of February, there is a forum for posting lists I think already.
no harm in posting them else where though, more people might see it on the main one.
The only thing I'd change with the detachments is replacing the mantle of wisdom enhancement - the army doesn't need both rules at once on one unit. And I want proper Exarchs so:
The Living Shrines - 100pts
When the shrines go to war, the living embodiments of their philosophy march with them, ancient exarchs of unnatural skill.
Choose 2 Exarchs in your force, each gains 2 wounds, improves WS/BS by 1 and is considered to possess a shrine token only they can use, once per battle phase.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Picked me up the Autarch set yesterday, the one with the Warp Spider pack.
Any thoughts on an advisable loadout?
I know it sounds trite, but magnets.
With the new book he/she is not a lone operative, but joins either spider or hawk squads. What are your plans for those squads? If you are going to hang back and shoot with hawks, a long range gun would be nice. If up in someone’s face with spiders, might want fusion?
CC toys look like they have jobs to do, which do you want? I like the glave, but arguments can be made.
It's quite easy to magnetise for an Eldar kit; I just magnetised the gun arm and backpack as I would usually use the polearm, and have an old metal one if I need one with a sword and fusion gun.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: That’s useful to know, as whilst a Banshee Mask is damned handy, this one looks daft.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oooh. Though I do have spare Scorpion Exarch lids if that one isn’t cosmetic?
From the leaked info I have, hats are not even mentioned. They have 0 game effect.
Especially for the wayleaper (jump pack/wings) autarch.
For the foot autarch, If they join a Banshee squad they gets fights first. If they join a scorpion squad they get infiltrate, stealth, and scout 7”. But there is no way to give them a banshee mask for fights first if you want to say attach them to a squad of storm guardians.
can't wait for sprue pics myself!
to paint the Aeldari,
