So i'll admit i haven't bought the latest codex for Drukhari but with the way our faction has been handled it's like a death spiral of gets no new units, lose old units, becomes less popular and then that starts the cycle of GW cutting more units from the army list. Remember when we had 3 different beast types, several archon's retinue types, Urien Rakarth, Grotesques, Vect and maybe others i have forgotten (mandrakes were gone for a while but finally got a re-make)? Most of these units have been gone for years with no new releases. The only "new" character we got was Lady Malys who last i checked GW had in the 5th edition rules and during 8th edition put her and Lelith into the ynnari faction lore-wise and seemed to be attempting to phase out the actually non-ynnari drukhari by leaving them in commoragh getting sucked into the warp which was also caused by the ynnari. In fact in many ways i think our latest army list has less options than the 5th edition one (including getting no baron, no duke sliscus, no mandrake leader, etc.).
Anyway i stopped playing Drukhari and 40k. I used to hate this but i realized GW doesn't care about Drukhari a long time ago so why should i.
I don't think they've ever liked them, they were a Fantasy holdover that they never really knew what to do with. They probably came very close to going the way of the original squats.
I think eldar are in a weird spot as a whole, where they tried to do a reboot. But it kind of fell through.
The dark eldar need some love and effort, but I’m not sure what at this stage.
Honestly I just kind of hate the Ynnari, they could have easily done everything better without them tied to the factions like a little ball and chains.
flamingkillamajig wrote: So i'll admit i haven't bought the latest codex for Drukhari but with the way our faction has been handled it's like a death spiral of gets no new units, lose old units, becomes less popular and then that starts the cycle of GW cutting more units from the army list. Remember when we had 3 different beast types, several archon's retinue types, Urien Rakarth, Grotesques, Vect and maybe others i have forgotten (mandrakes were gone for a while but finally got a re-make)? Most of these units have been gone for years with no new releases. The only "new" character we got was Lady Malys who last i checked GW had in the 5th edition rules and during 8th edition put her and Lelith into the ynnari faction lore-wise and seemed to be attempting to phase out the actually non-ynnari drukhari by leaving them in commoragh getting sucked into the warp which was also caused by the ynnari. In fact in many ways i think our latest army list has less options than the 5th edition one (including getting no baron, no duke sliscus, no mandrake leader, etc.).
Anyway i stopped playing Drukhari and 40k. I used to hate this but i realized GW doesn't care about Drukhari a long time ago so why should i.
Yes, they care. No they don't care enough right now.
flamingkillamajig wrote: So i'll admit i haven't bought the latest codex for Drukhari but with the way our faction has been handled it's like a death spiral of gets no new units, lose old units, becomes less popular and then that starts the cycle of GW cutting more units from the army list.
...
In fact in many ways i think our latest army list has less options than the 5th edition one (including getting no baron, no duke sliscus, no mandrake leader, etc.).
I counted up the total number of units we had in 3rd edition and compared it to the number we have now not too long ago. I don't recall the exact count, but we're right at the cusp of breaking even or possibly having fewer units than before depending on how you look at it.
We could definitely use more model support, and GW should be ashamed every time they release a primaris lieutenant when they let three different drukhari units fall to Legends with the latest codex release. I'll also say that I think drukhari (and eldar in general) have kind of struggled to "fit" into the general design direction of the last couple of editions. Moving away from customizable characters (Crucible rules not withstanding) combined with not getting a lot of unit releases means that our already limited faction lost a lot of its options. 10th edition is kind of a cage match with smaller tables, magic circles that you have to stand on if you don't want to lose the game, and lots of beefy units with decent charge threat ranges running around. Speed-as-defense mechanics have become more and more limited over time too. All of which combines to kind of limit how GW can design drukhari. It kind of forces us to either be hyper-efficient enough at trading units to win a haymaker contest, or else we aren't efficient enough and just lose.
BUT! All that said, I don't think any of this is a lack of interest on GW's part. We *did* finally just get Malys as well as a new archon. Our current rules are pretty decent despite the limitations of 10th. In 9th edition, we were considered a menace for a lot of the edition. We got Queen of Knives not too long ago, and we get some decent rep in the Void Scarred and Da Big Dakka novels. So we've been powerful. We've had novels. We're just criminally undersupported in terms of models.
(mandrakes were gone for a while but finally got a re-make)?
Mandrakes were never gone. They went from pewter to finecast to the new kill team plastic models, but their rules have always been in the codex.
The only "new" character we got was Lady Malys who last i checked GW had in the 5th edition rules and during 8th edition put her and Lelith into the ynnari faction lore-wise and seemed to be attempting to phase out the actually non-ynnari drukhari by leaving them in commoragh getting sucked into the warp which was also caused by the ynnari.
Malys isn't really Ynnari. At least not directly. She's just anti-Vect, and Vect is anti-Ynnari. Lelith was pro-Ynnari for a while but has recently kind of distanced herself from them both physically and politically (as have most of the named aeldari characters.)
Most of the characters we lost were presumably the result of the whole Chapter House lawsuit and the resulting no-model-no-rules policy. GW opting to cut them instead of supporting them with models is very frustrating, and giving Malys back to us is definitely a two steps forward one step back situation. (And I say that as a Poisoned Tongue player who adores Malys.)
Anyway i stopped playing Drukhari and 40k. I used to hate this but i realized GW doesn't care about Drukhari a long time ago so why should i.
Meh. Like I said. We're in a weird spot. We've lost wargear options and units for either avoidable reasons or no seemingly no reason at all. Frankly, a lot of the charm that made me love drukhari back in the day simply isn't present in their current rules. But it's hard to say that GW doesn't care about us given that our current rules are pretty playable and our 9th edition rules considered very strong.
To me, it does feel like our faction suffers from being deprioritized compared to other factions (mainly marines), but it doesn't feel like we're being intentionally neglected. I think we're just better suited to a version of 40k that is very different from the magic circles and no-customizability version we have right now.
Craftworld Eldar have had major updates in 9th and 10th Edition.
Dark Eldar? Sure it been 15 years since their much needed overhaul, but their current plastic range is still modern looking. Sure there are units they once had (Trueborn, Fancy Wyches, Beastmaster and Co, Court of the Archon, Vect and a bunch of character options) which aren’t part of it right now.
Which isn’t a huge amount. Granted, so not a huge amount it’s probably highly frustrating to DE players that those remain outstanding.
I’m not sure what else could be added to the Dark Eldar though. Mostly because I’m not familiar with them, let alone modern 40K.
But for reimagining?
Trueborn and Elite Fancy Wyches need more than just more fancy weapons. They need weapons which feel fancy. Now, Trueborn used to have access to Shard Carbines, and of course had (or could upgrade to?) a 4+ save. Which made them feel a cut above.
But if we elevate both units to be Minor Nobles Of Some Personal Wealth? Then you’ve a background source for them having really quite dirty combos. Like how Vanguard Veterans could (still can?) really load for bear if you wanted.
I’m not sure what else could be added to the Dark Eldar though. Mostly because I’m not familiar with them, let alone modern 40K.
Honestly, we'd be in okay shape if GW had just updated/supported the various options they've taken away from us over the years. Even setting aside trueborn and blood brides...
* Grotesques. I was really surprised they let these guys go to legends because they're like a quarter of the Coven untis in the army, and because making these guys into interesting 3-model kits similar to Flawless Blades, various 3-man primaris squads, etc. would be really easy. The whole point of these guys is that they're customizable lab experiments so just make a kit that builds a brutal melee monster version and a zany weird esoteric weapon version (double liquifier flamer squad that bleeds acid on you when you hurt them?)
* Beast Packs: Rather than consolidating these guys down, expand them out. Give each type of beast its own job (clawed fiends are hammer units that you have to hide on approach, razorwings are multi-wound distracts with fly that prevent enemeis from shooting distant foes while they're near, khymarae have invulns and respawn models whne enemies fall back or fail battleshock). Beast masters either unlock improved versions of the beasts powers or just generically make them more mobile or lethal. (CP discounts or charge rerolls.)
* The Court is full of interesting types that could be broken out into their own units. Give us lhameans as a squad with different cool bits of wargear and weaponry to flesh out that unexplored subfaction a bit. Same thing with Sslyth; give us a peek into their culture with a whole squad of snakes. Medusae could be interesting characters that you spread through your army so they can "record footage" of interesting moments and help expand the weapon options of your other units. Ur-ghuls are the odd duck and maybe make more sense as beast pack units in my opinion.
* A drukhari reaper that leans into haywire as a way of temporarily disabling a target rather than killing it outright would lean into the "playing with your food" vibe drukhari used to have and would create an interesting play option of kicking threats down the road instead of just wiping them out immediately.
* Characters with bike/wing/skyboard options to lead our more mobile units could change the ways you use those units.
* Dracons, Haemonculi Ancients, and Syrens/Dracites could open up additional rules that modify how you play with other existing units. So could the various named characters we've lost over the years for that matter.
Drukhari are in this weird position where GW has taken away about as many options over the years as its given. My harlequins feel like they've been neglected because GW just didn't feel like giving them new toys. But my drukhari feel like GW has actively been taking their toys away over the years because they couldn't be bothered to support the stuff they'd already given us.
There's a danger of this being wishful thinking - but there really isn't all that much left to refresh across wider 40k.
People struggle to imagine new stuff because it obviously steps on toes - but this hasn't been a problem for any other faction (Marines most obviously, but also Necrons and Tyranids in recent editions), so not really sure why its a limiting feature for Dark Eldar. There's no reason a faction that's been in the game since 3rd edition should be limited to about the same number of units as the Votann.
Tyel wrote: I'd expect a big DE wave in 11th edition.
There's a danger of this being wishful thinking - but there really isn't all that much left to refresh across wider 40k.
People struggle to imagine new stuff because it obviously steps on toes - but this hasn't been a problem for any other faction (Marines most obviously, but also Necrons and Tyranids in recent editions), so not really sure why its a limiting feature for Dark Eldar. There's no reason a faction that's been in the game since 3rd edition should be limited to about the same number of units as the Votann.
Oldest standing ranges are:
Dark eldar
Grey knights
Daemons
Dudeface wrote: Oldest standing ranges are:
Dark eldar
Grey knights
Daemons
All who have mostly 5th edition sculpts.
Yeah.
Grey Knights are odd - because a 1:1 swap requires essentially two kits, maybe 3 if you think including the options for all the regular power armour units is a bit much.
This admittedly isn't very imaginative, and they may want to take the faction in a different direction. Which might be harder to think up.
Daemons is more of a mess. I don't think they are destined to be squatted (which now means what... you disappear from the game for 30~ years then come back again?)
But I think GW is unsure whether they are meant to be an aggregate thing or mono-god. If monogod then bulking out the respective Chaos Space Marine Chapter book makes a bit of sense even if thats bad for existing Daemons players.
But while this is logical and works for AoS, I'm not sure they are going to go that way. Belakor is a great model and almost justifies a daemons army on his own.
Which would suggest you could maybe re-imagine the roster with less emphasis on Fantasy equivalents (so long chariots etc) - and more undivided elements that form a unified army. The classic unit types survive, but get joined by more stuff in the middle.
Same sort of problem as DE though. "We want more Kabal units. Okay just have melee Kabalites. What, like Wyches and Wracks? Okay make some shooty Wracks. What, like Kabalites?"
But I think with a proper range refresh this is potentially less of a burden. Even if the yawning mouth of Legends opens wide.
They explicitely put Dark Eldar weapons on the new Corsair Viper, so it's not that GW totally forgot about them existing.
I think Ynnari are the one faction post-Kirby one could say noone at GW cares about.
I'm sure DE will return in 11th. They had to solve 2nd and 3rd edition craftworlds first, and now it's time for 5th Edition DE. Granted, putting in Corsairs in between looks strange, but for all we know GW still works partly from what their Designers just want to do, even if it's nichés that seem less important than other existing factions.
Given how few units Dark Eldar “need”*, I sometimes wonder if it feels like the players are in McDonalds. Watching their burger rapidly cool whilst they await their fries, as some morbidly obese** bloke’s tray is loaded up with serving after serving after serving of fries.
*for a given value of that word.
**referring to the size of the Space Marine range, not its players.
It seems pretty clear that GW planned to unify the Eldar in 8th along with the rest of the faction streamlining and it just didn't take. It does seem like they decided to support them properly but I suspect that got added to the queue behind everything else and something that just now is finally looking like it might get addressed.
I don't think they were going to unify them fully, 8th was the tail end of Kirby marketing where GW was die hard trying to maximise on investment.
It's why instead of replacing Marines with new sculpts they put them in the same army - bloating marines by doubling the range count.
It's why the tried to do a new faction that was just 3 models and then "whatever eldar/darkeldar you want" just smushed together.
Dark Eldar are just behind other factions; don't forget they were ahead of Craftworld for a long time and Craftworld were even less loved - running around with a lot of really old finecast and early Aspect Warriors. They've only just caught up in a big way and that's without being a "new edition box" faction or such.
Dark Eldar are just behind the Craftword, Necrons and Tyranids in these big updates.
Eldar are getting close to the end of updates/additions so the rate of new things will ease off for them. There's thus a ripe gap where Dark Eldar can step in for a range update either bit by bit or as a new main antagonist faction in a new edition etc.
Did they get what people wanted (Plastic Aspect Warriors)? Nope.
But every edition they got something new. The jets, the Wraithknight and Wraithblades, the Doom Weaver, the Autarch.
They’ve also done….kinda alright for redos since 3rd Ed. At least compared to Dark Eldar.
Again, imperfect knowledge of the faction, but in terms of new? Dark Eldar have their jets, the Not-Talos, Grotesques being Embiggened and Wracks filling the old Grotesque role. Beastmaster got some new pets.
And so, they’ve barely expanded since their 3rd Ed debut. The massive redo was a cracker, I don’t think anyone can dispute that. And of those? Only three are still available.
Don’t think I’ve missed anything, except special characters. If we added those in, Eldar do even better. I’ve not added them as I can’t remember, and don’t have the book to check, which were included in Codex Eldar. But straight off the bat you’ve 6 Phoenix Lords and Asurmen, compared to….4 with models for Dark Eldar (Vect, Kruella, Incubi Dude, Lelith). Wait, 5. Haemonculus Big Boss.
Now of course, credit where it’s due Dark Eldar were a brand new range. And to be honest? Despite Bloody Awful Rules, 15 units for launch is a respectable number. Spesh compared to today (laughs at Chaos Legion armies).
But that they’ve added and retained all of three units since then? That’s pathetic.
I'm generally of the opinion that the less attention GW gives to an army, the less likely they are to mess it up, if you don't like dark eldar, then you're out of luck, but if you do like them, then you're probably happy with their lack of attention, that's at least my opinion.
I did enjoy the original (3e) designs for raiders, ravagers, and the reaver jetbikes, the new reaver jetbikes are still good, the raiders look strange with their sails, so I think it was a downgrade.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Given how few units Dark Eldar “need”*, I sometimes wonder if it feels like the players are in McDonalds. Watching their burger rapidly cool whilst they await their fries, as some morbidly obese** bloke’s tray is loaded up with serving after serving after serving of fries.
*for a given value of that word.
**referring to the size of the Space Marine range, not its players.
I think its that the Dark Eldar are already (and only) halfway fluffed. The Imperium is led by their God Emperor. Everything they do is for/because of him. The Heretic Astartes are devoted to the Ruinous Powers. The Eldar have their own God, AND created one of the Ruinous Powers. The Dark Eldar act like they're devoted to the Ruinous Powers but... aren't? Or not Really? Not Very? All of them but Slaanesh who still hates Dark Eldar? Or doesn't? But they're still not devoted to Slaanesh in some sort of Benny from the Mumm (better to be in the right hand of the Devil than in his path)
They need someone who wants to add the second half there. Hopefully someone more creative than "Just Make them Mirrors like the space Marines". The Dark Eldar should have some sort of god/supernatural. I suppose what I would do - with what little I know of them so far - is to take one of the ones who are supposedly fallen from the pantheon, and put them on death's door, and all the slaves, carnage, pain and whatever is what's feeding them to stay alive.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Given how few units Dark Eldar “need”*, I sometimes wonder if it feels like the players are in McDonalds. Watching their burger rapidly cool whilst they await their fries, as some morbidly obese** bloke’s tray is loaded up with serving after serving after serving of fries.
*for a given value of that word.
**referring to the size of the Space Marine range, not its players.
I think its that the Dark Eldar are already (and only) halfway fluffed. The Imperium is led by their God Emperor. Everything they do is for/because of him. The Heretic Astartes are devoted to the Ruinous Powers. The Eldar have their own God, AND created one of the Ruinous Powers. The Dark Eldar act like they're devoted to the Ruinous Powers but... aren't? Or not Really? Not Very? All of them but Slaanesh who still hates Dark Eldar? Or doesn't? But they're still not devoted to Slaanesh in some sort of Benny from the Mumm (better to be in the right hand of the Devil than in his path)
They need someone who wants to add the second half there. Hopefully someone more creative than "Just Make them Mirrors like the space Marines". The Dark Eldar should have some sort of god/supernatural. I suppose what I would do - with what little I know of them so far - is to take one of the ones who are supposedly fallen from the pantheon, and put them on death's door, and all the slaves, carnage, pain and whatever is what's feeding them to stay alive.
Dark Eldar don't need gods.
They need more model and rule support.
They need more inspiration for the models and rules.
To add to that, they have pretty much the one base. The Rogue/Assassin using poison to make people suffer long agonizing deaths. There are no warriors, priests, or wizards to speak of. Look at the space marine chapters. They have the same basic fluff - God Emperor, (a) Primarch (who will also sort of show up on the second list), gene seed, and on and on. But they also generally have at least two variations. Terminators. Librarians, Chaplain, Bikes. Transports. Weapon types (Melta/Flames/Thunderhammers), Scouts, Dreads, Bionics, and on and on. Those are usually/often tied to their Primarch's personality. I'm not saying Dark Eldar should get Chapter Tactics, I'm saying they don't have a second thing let alone several second things that let you mix and match. Even the Black Templars - where they took away the wizard they added the Emperor's Champion so you still had another thematic element to build around. Ynnead is the bridge between Eldar and Dark Eldar. Ynnead was allied with Dromlach. Who represents Death often. And supposedly exists in the warp and the physical plane simultenously (which would give Dark Eldar an "out" for having psykers.
Dark Eldar have been fairly neglected as it goes since they arrived in 40K. They had to use their 3e codex and miniatures until well into 5th edition, and once that 5th edition update (which was great) came around they didn't get anything else except a couple of flyers and a forgeworld unit for the next what, 5 editions? A killteam of mandrakes and an upgrade sprue, I'm not missing anything, right?
So it's clear that no one at GW is that excited by or interested in DE. Which is a shame, because I think they're a lot cooler than CE and have much cooler models. But as BanjoJohn says, I was happy that they were still the old 5e models when I went and bought an armies worth, because it meant they were cheaper than many other armies and still mapped onto what I liked from the earlier editions.
But I can well remember the feeling of neglect that comes from being invested in the current game and wanting releases for your faction that you love. So I empathise with Dark Eldar fans who feel frustrated. And I think it really wouldn't be so hard to at least stem the bleeding of units from Dark Eldar. But when nobody in the Studio is excited about your army this is what happens.
The DE are the only real sentient faction they've not tried to give any humanising to.
They have been riding the HH apologising and trying to make traitor primarchs and marines somehow only misguided, rather than selling their souls for temporal power.
Ahriman is sympathetic despite being in the 'worships tzeentch marines' codex. They push these elements on traitor marines I suppose so people don't feel so bad playing them. They want to be able to picture themselves the hero even if its a rebel hero.
The DE are still in the moustache twirling evil for the lols camp. They've gotten no redeeming qualities.
so in the current paradigm of gw selling factions to kids, they are a harder sell than marines that don't want to be shackled to blind obedience.
IMO the only way GW are going to care about this if they can develop their background with some sympathetic undertones - perhaps an archon that doesn't torture to invigorate, or only attacks 'bad' factions to do it. A dexter type. someone that has some kind of redeeming quality.
The necrons got their sympathetic revamp, orks are always relatively innocent and fun while every other faction has aspects people can latch on to.
But the pure distilling of humans into slannesh repellant aspect of DE makes them really hard to sell to the same people that like the other factions.
Maybe people that like the daemon armies, but they're disappearing into marine codexes, marines that have whole novel series humanising them for the reader.
Hellebore wrote: The DE are the only real sentient faction they've not tried to give any humanising to.
They have been riding the HH apologising and trying to make traitor primarchs and marines somehow only misguided, rather than selling their souls for temporal power.
Ahriman is sympathetic despite being in the 'worships tzeentch marines' codex. They push these elements on traitor marines I suppose so people don't feel so bad playing them. They want to be able to picture themselves the hero even if its a rebel hero.
The DE are still in the moustache twirling evil for the lols camp. They've gotten no redeeming qualities.
so in the current paradigm of gw selling factions to kids, they are a harder sell than marines that don't want to be shackled to blind obedience.
IMO the only way GW are going to care about this if they can develop their background with some sympathetic undertones - perhaps an archon that doesn't torture to invigorate, or only attacks 'bad' factions to do it. A dexter type. someone that has some kind of redeeming quality.
The necrons got their sympathetic revamp, orks are always relatively innocent and fun while every other faction has aspects people can latch on to.
But the pure distilling of humans into slannesh repellant aspect of DE makes them really hard to sell to the same people that like the other factions.
Maybe people that like the daemon armies, but they're disappearing into marine codexes, marines that have whole novel series humanising them for the reader.
Well yes and no. The novels recently seem to be pushing the ‘cycle of abuse’ and ‘trapped by their society’ angles.
Essentially they’re how they are because they’re all abused as children on a societal level and anyone who doesn’t act like DE are supposed to act is brutally killed by the system.
You see that in the Lelith novel and the Voidscarred novel rams it home with the former Wych who is a Corsair for the freedom to act how she wants, especially the ability to *not* be as nasty and brutal as DE need to be.
IMO it threads a good line where the DE are pretty openly vicious and sadistic, but to some extent it’s bravado with the sympathetic angle being they’re just as trapped on their paths as the Craftworlders by the society they live in. They can’t choose *not* to be vicious and sadistic unless someone provides and exit for them.
Hellebore wrote: The DE are the only real sentient faction they've not tried to give any humanising to.
They have been riding the HH apologising and trying to make traitor primarchs and marines somehow only misguided, rather than selling their souls for temporal power.
Ahriman is sympathetic despite being in the 'worships tzeentch marines' codex. They push these elements on traitor marines I suppose so people don't feel so bad playing them. They want to be able to picture themselves the hero even if its a rebel hero.
I didn't get they were trying to give them redeeming qualities so much as they were borrowing Obi-Wan's "Certain point of view" treatment. What little "humanizing" they got was for the Primarchs not their followers. Horus having to pick between falling and dying. Magnus was trying to do the "wrong thing" (warning the Emperor through a psychic visitation) for the right reasons and got spanked by the Emperor (and Russ) for doing it. Typhus manipulated Morty into falling. The Primarchs are very much playing with Nature vs Nurture without actually moving the needle either direction.
The DE are still in the moustache twirling evil for the lols camp. They've gotten no redeeming qualities.
so in the current paradigm of gw selling factions to kids, they are a harder sell than marines that don't want to be shackled to blind obedience.
IMO the only way GW are going to care about this if they can develop their background with some sympathetic undertones - perhaps an archon that doesn't torture to invigorate, or only attacks 'bad' factions to do it. A dexter type. someone that has some kind of redeeming quality.
The necrons got their sympathetic revamp, orks are always relatively innocent and fun while every other faction has aspects people can latch on to.
But the pure distilling of humans into slannesh repellant aspect of DE makes them really hard to sell to the same people that like the other factions.
Maybe people that like the daemon armies, but they're disappearing into marine codexes, marines that have whole novel series humanising them for the reader.
You are correct in that they need more fluff than they have. And fluff that works better. They need more reason for why they do what they do, and more archetypes for how they do it.
Well yes and no. The novels recently seem to be pushing the ‘cycle of abuse’ and ‘trapped by their society’ angles.
Essentially they’re how they are because they’re all abused as children on a societal level and anyone who doesn’t act like DE are supposed to act is brutally killed by the system.
You see that in the Lelith novel and the Voidscarred novel rams it home with the former Wych who is a Corsair for the freedom to act how she wants, especially the ability to *not* be as nasty and brutal as DE need to be.
IMO it threads a good line where the DE are pretty openly vicious and sadistic, but to some extent it’s bravado with the sympathetic angle being they’re just as trapped on their paths as the Craftworlders by the society they live in. They can’t choose *not* to be vicious and sadistic unless someone provides and exit for them.
Good summary. But to Hellebore's point, they never really risk coming across as softening the drukhari in a way that makes you think they aren't absolute monsters. So they feel vaguely tragic and like they have a reason for being sadistic monsters, but ultimately they are sadistic monsters.
Compare to Ahriman who is sometimes one of the less moustache-twirly characters in his books, so one could easily fall prey to making the mistake of thinking he's "not so bad" just because they made him relatively sympathetic in some ways.
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BanjoJohn wrote:I'm generally of the opinion that the less attention GW gives to an army, the less likely they are to mess it up,
There is a certain amount of truth to this. I really like the 5th edition warrior and wych kits, and I'm not particularly looking forward to the eventual update we'll presumably get at some point. Long live the interchangeable non-monopose kits! Like I said earlier, I think the problem with drukhari is as much GW taking things away as it is failing to give us new stuff. With index drukhari, my nitpicking was that I wanted options or different rules for existing units; not necessarily that I wanted a bunch of new units in general.
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I think Ynnari are the one faction post-Kirby one could say noone at GW cares about.
I'm not sure they're apathetic towards Ynnari; I think they're actively irritated by them. As Overread says, it seems like GW was planning to combine the elves grand alliance style circa late 7th/early 8th, but then AoS was a real stinker upon initial release, so they backed off. Since then, Ynnari have gone from having a lot of momentum and being framed as the central focus of all things aeldari to just being some fringe subfaction that all the named characters have started distancing themselves from. This coming along with several editions of rules where it becomes harder and harder to put a ynnari army on the table that matches the fluff from the campaign books and novels that they appear in.
It seems like GW was poised to make some big choices with the ynnari, then abandoned all those big choices and are left trying to backpedal. It's quite frustrating.
Again, imperfect knowledge of the faction, but in terms of new? Dark Eldar have their jets, the Not-Talos, Grotesques being Embiggened and Wracks filling the old Grotesque role. Beastmaster got some new pets.
"Not-Talos is the Cronos, and it's actually been around since 5th edition in the same kit as the current Talos. They just spend a lot of time not being very popular competitively. One of those units that the designers seem to have a lot of trouble getting right. I always liked their 5th edition rules. They weren't great at killing marines (which was their main problem), but it *felt* good to take out an enemy model and hand out pain tokens. Nice and visceral. Really sold the fluff the rules were trying to represent.
Also Dracons/Dracites. You could maybe count the mounted versions of each of those too depending on how much of the 10th edition paradigm you want to inject. But agreed, the variety in their lineup was pretty decent upon release.
I think part of the frustration with our model support is that, in addition to our overall list of options not really increasing over time, a lot of the options we have been given have been dropped over time. So if you got attached to any of the really cool named characters from 5th edition, or if you built true born and blood bride squads from 5th onward, or if you built haemocytes in 9th, or if you liked warp beasts or grotesques ever, you've had those options taken away seemingly because GW just doesn't prioritize your faction enough to make a kit for the relatively small roster of units that have been around for decades. And meanwhile, they're cranking out primaris lieutenants every five minutes.
When we were waiting on phoenix lords to get updated (setting aside Karandras for now), every lieutenant made me say, "This could have been a phoenix lord." After losing the court, the beasts, and the grotesques this edition, every plastic kit another faction gets makes me go, "This could have been a classic drukhari unit."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote: I'd expect a big DE wave in 11th edition.
I suspect you're right. Something like the beast pack feels like a unit GW might release as a Kill Team. The grotesques really should have been updated with the codex, but they're easy enough to reintroduce whenever. The court would also make a good Kill Team or could stand to be overhauled in a new book. Dropping them in the meantime is crummy, but it's easily reversible.
Wyldhunt wrote: I suspect you're right. Something like the beast pack feels like a unit GW might release as a Kill Team. The grotesques really should have been updated with the codex, but they're easy enough to reintroduce whenever. The court would also make a good Kill Team or could stand to be overhauled in a new book. Dropping them in the meantime is crummy, but it's easily reversible.
My concern is that this is all we get.
I.E. instead of bringing the court back, why not a whole unit of Slyth, Lhamians, or the ghuls or whatever the other thing was. Or something weird and new they've just made up.
Release some new version of Incubi who have ditched the Klaives for solid mid-tier guns. (S5 AP-2 2 damage).
Obviously plastic Grots.
Have Mandrakes mounted on flaming Velicoraptors. Not quite sure how you visualise it, but a monster which is effective creeping shadow that eats things.
Vect (boo hiss) on the Dias of Destruction. Maybe as a multi-part kit that allows you to build a regular Tantalus.
Urien can be on some throne of flesh that walks across the battlefield.
Those evil Wraith Guard from the Path books.
A new unit of Wyches that throw tridents and nets at people (idk kind of reaching here). Some mounted Wych unit where each model is two jetbikes or Hellions (or other vehicle) linked by monofilament wire that mows people down.
Some sort of unit relating to the Dark Muses. Can provide "i can't believe its not a psyker" buffs. Probably need to expand on what the Dark Muses are, but you can't keep saying "Vect is a living muse" and pretending we are meant to care if you don't.
In my view DE need a proper release that people can sink their teeth into. Not "oh yeah, here's the 3 kits we could have upgraded from Finecast and released at any time in the last decade".
BanjoJohn wrote: I'm generally of the opinion that the less attention GW gives to an army, the less likely they are to mess it up, if you don't like dark eldar, then you're out of luck, but if you do like them, then you're probably happy with their lack of attention, that's at least my opinion.
That might be true with respect to when GW decides to update existing models.
I don't think it applies when they take the Dark Eldar codex, rip out a third of the pages, and then release the result as the new edition's codex.
Release some new version of Incubi who have ditched the Klaives for solid mid-tier guns. (S5 AP-2 2 damage).
That would be in the interesting position of being both lore-inaccurate but also a throwback to the incubi rules/models of 3rd edition. Incubi used to be able to swap klaives for shredders or blasters, but also incubi-as-dark-aspect-warriors has been doubled and tripled down on over the years. And part of being an aspect warrior is the highly uniform kit. Maybe klaivex with guns could be a sort of dark exarch parallel...
Have Mandrakes mounted on flaming Velicoraptors. Not quite sure how you visualise it, but a monster which is effective creeping shadow that eats things.
Rad. Make it giant shadow bats.
Some sort of unit relating to the Dark Muses. Can provide "i can't believe its not a psyker" buffs. Probably need to expand on what the Dark Muses are, but you can't keep saying "Vect is a living muse" and pretending we are meant to care if you don't.
Dark Muses are specifcally not gods. They seem to essentially just be like, folk heroes/paragons of certain arts and virtues. But this gets a little messy in that Shaimesh is the name of both a dark muse and the brother of the world serpent (the mythical snake that Saim-Hann's symbol references). So it's unclear whether these are two different guys or if dark muses can potentially be supernatural entities so long as they aren't "gods" per se.
It's sort of like saying you revere impressive mortals rather than gods, but then one of the creatures you revere is like, Cerberus. Technically not a "god" but similar enough in enough ways to make things confusing.
Dark Muses are specifcally not gods. They seem to essentially just be like, folk heroes/paragons of certain arts and virtues. But this gets a little messy in that Shaimesh is the name of both a dark muse and the brother of the world serpent (the mythical snake that Saim-Hann's symbol references). So it's unclear whether these are two different guys or if dark muses can potentially be supernatural entities so long as they aren't "gods" per se.
It's sort of like saying you revere impressive mortals rather than gods, but then one of the creatures you revere is like, Cerberus. Technically not a "god" but similar enough in enough ways to make things confusing.
Yeah. I was thinking yesterday evening that you could almost turn these into Dark Eldar Phoenix Lords if you really wanted to.
They aren't "gods" but they could still be entities. You take on the... aspect of Lhilitu, Hekatii, Shaimesh etc (are you then a cosmic dragon? I'll let GW's modelling team decide) - either by donning certain equipment, or just webway trickery.
This potentially uplifts them too much in the lore though and feels a bit of a cheap copy. But its a route you could go down if you wanted to expand on a strand of DE lore.
Given more than 10 minutes thought you could potentially come up with something cooler.
I was glancing through the 10th edition book for other ideas. The Last Hatred mentions them sometimes using undead Aeldari (paraphraising). Perhaps a bit niche - but that could be a unit.
BanjoJohn wrote: I'm generally of the opinion that the less attention GW gives to an army, the less likely they are to mess it up, if you don't like dark eldar, then you're out of luck, but if you do like them, then you're probably happy with their lack of attention, that's at least my opinion.
That might be true with respect to when GW decides to update existing models.
I don't think it applies when they take the Dark Eldar codex, rip out a third of the pages, and then release the result as the new edition's codex.
Yeah, removing units and character is bad sport on their part, probably because they don't want rules for models they want to stop making, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't keep supporting the people who already have those models.
I'm currently working on collecting a full set of asdrubael vect to fix the supply issue tho.
BanjoJohn wrote: I'm generally of the opinion that the less attention GW gives to an army, the less likely they are to mess it up, if you don't like dark eldar, then you're out of luck, but if you do like them, then you're probably happy with their lack of attention, that's at least my opinion.
That might be true with respect to when GW decides to update existing models.
I don't think it applies when they take the Dark Eldar codex, rip out a third of the pages, and then release the result as the new edition's codex.
Yeah, removing units and character is bad sport on their part, probably because they don't want rules for models they want to stop making, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't keep supporting the people who already have those models.
BanjoJohn wrote: I'm generally of the opinion that the less attention GW gives to an army, the less likely they are to mess it up, if you don't like dark eldar, then you're out of luck, but if you do like them, then you're probably happy with their lack of attention, that's at least my opinion.
That might be true with respect to when GW decides to update existing models.
I don't think it applies when they take the Dark Eldar codex, rip out a third of the pages, and then release the result as the new edition's codex.
Yeah, removing units and character is bad sport on their part, probably because they don't want rules for models they want to stop making, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't keep supporting the people who already have those models.
BanjoJohn wrote: I'm generally of the opinion that the less attention GW gives to an army, the less likely they are to mess it up, if you don't like dark eldar, then you're out of luck, but if you do like them, then you're probably happy with their lack of attention, that's at least my opinion.
That might be true with respect to when GW decides to update existing models.
I don't think it applies when they take the Dark Eldar codex, rip out a third of the pages, and then release the result as the new edition's codex.
Yeah, removing units and character is bad sport on their part, probably because they don't want rules for models they want to stop making, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't keep supporting the people who already have those models.
I do think that while the model designers seem to hate designing DE (so we get barely any new models), someone writing the rules does still seem to love them (is Phil Kelly still about?). Sure they lose units every edition after 5th, but that’s generally application of NMNR and this edition’s Finecast purge. 6th/7th aside, the codex rules are generally written with plenty of flavour (as much as the edition allows) and at least ok competitively.
And those most recent legends rules are excellent, up to codex standard rather than phoned in like they usually are. Makes me think the coven units at least were probably originally intended to be in before they decided on the Finecast purge.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Background and Narrative wise, I do like the whole Different Cults aspect of Dark Eldar. But I understand it’s never really worked out in-game.
And with the old FoC gone, I don’t think it serves any purpose in the modern game. Happy to be corrected there though. Again, not up on it.
But moving away? My favourite question for any neglected army. What new units, or unit archetypes do you think would suit them?
Would alien Mercs offer something new?
I think alien mercs is more of a tau thing - but I could see them arming their slaves with basic weapons, and an obey-or-blow-up cortex bomb. (maybe if the whole unit is destroyed you get a Deadly Demise?) Use Clan Rats as the inspiration. But The Dark Eldar need a lot more archetypes. They need the warrior, the priest, and the wizard in their leaders. They need more units that don't lean so heavily on "poison" represented by Anti-Infantry but otherwise low S. If Dark Eldar take on a Deathwing army its something of a laugher. If they take on Tau its a laugher in the other direction even though the units will have pretty similar statlines. The difference is Terminators are Infantry, and Tau suits are vehicles. And running into Nids Big Bugs is another example.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Background and Narrative wise, I do like the whole Different Cults aspect of Dark Eldar. But I understand it’s never really worked out in-game.
And with the old FoC gone, I don’t think it serves any purpose in the modern game. Happy to be corrected there though. Again, not up on it.
I think the issue is that all it's really doing is compartmentalising an already anaemic codex.
After the latest round of mutilations:
Kabal have 1 Generic HQ, 1 Special Character, 2 Infantry units and 1 Vehicle.
Wyches have 1 Generic HQ, 1 Special Character, 1 Infantry unit and 2 Fast units.
Coven have 1 Generic HQ, 1 Infantry unit and 2 Monsters.
Then you have Mercenaries, who have 1 Special Character and 3 flavours of Infantry (only one of which relates to said special character).
The options are limited enough without cutting them into pieces so small they make Harlequins look bloated by comparison.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: My favourite question for any neglected army. What new units, or unit archetypes do you think would suit them?
So, before we even touch on new, we cover the returns...
- Vect on Dias of Destruction - with the Dias being more than a custom Ravager (I think someone mentioned Tantalus?), and the kit giving an option to build a standard Tantalus. Also give the option for a Vect on Foot in case you go for standard Tantalus.
- Grotesques, possibly as a dual-build kit with a melee unit and a ranged unit
- Multiple Beastmaster & pack kits, one for each of the beasts that went walkabout (I think that's 3?), with the Beastmaster having something for mobility if the unit is especilly quick.
- Court of the Archon - As someone mentioned elsewhere, the units for Huron & Titus cover this sort of thing. Maybe add an option or two to pad out?
- Urien Rakarth, in even more gribbly form
- Junior generic characters for each of the three main branches (which have had names for the ranks in the past, but I've forgotten them over time)
- From a rules perspective, the same access to Harlequins & Corsairs as their Craftworld equivalents
If I have missed anything that actually had a kit in the past, I apologise - I don't think we ever had "movement options for characters" as a release, so I'm avoiding them in the "returning" section. Also, if it doesn't have a datasheet for it now, add a datasheet for the Hand of the Archon that makes some use of the Kill Team bits.
As for new?
- Generic characters with movement options
- May as well do a model for Baron Siliscus (or however you spell it) if doing that
- A Wych unit designed to fight monsters, as I imagine that'd be a popular option in the pit fights, and the weaponry might not be the standard "Wych weapons"
- Actual kits for the Truebloods & the "elite" Wych unit (Bloodbrides?) - not sure if there was a Coven equivalent
- For a bit of an anvil unit, perhaps a "controlled" unit of Haemonculi'd Orks or something of that ilk - something chunky and obviously messed with that can hold an objective, has an in-unit Haemonculi pulling the strings, etc
- Some form of anti-psyker character - not full-on null, but someone who makes use of weird eldritch "tech" to both counter psychic abilities and remotely mess with their heads. I'm sure there are some old bits of DE wargear that might fight as equipment here
- A Kabal scout unit of some form - someone has to get the webway portals into place for the raiders to burst into realspace from, after all
I think exploring the mandrake shadow kingdoms more would also be cool.
That's a whole 4th cult they could expand out, with an almost chaos eldar vibe of mandrakes and shadow daemon monster troops, living shadow portals, and all sorts of craziness.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:But moving away? My favourite question for any neglected army. What new units, or unit archetypes do you think would suit them?
I personally think they should take a page from their Dark Elf selves and put a focus on the beast masters but bigger. Let them have a menagerie of alien monsters like the hydra or the kharibdyss that they deploy on there enemies during a raid when they really need something destroyed.
Just ragged on the original Mandrake rules in a completely unrelated thread.
Basically, and from memory, you positioned three models from the unit on the board. These represented possible locations for the squad. Each could move normally, and couldn’t be engaged (they’re not actually there). Then you eventually decided where they actually were by picking one of the markers, and deploying the squad in coherency with it.
The unit then promptly did nothing except give away cheap VPs when your opponent promptly slaughtered them. Turns out Elves in Gimp Suits with oversized cutlery do not a thorny opponent make.
Anyways. That got me to thinking. Dark Eldar are sometimes (often?) described as a Glass Cannon. But to the best of my of my knowledge, they’re currently All Glass, No Cannon. And all the fancy movement tricks in the world can’t help you if your mightiest attack is akin to tutting at someone.
So how do you put some powder in their keg? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the army requiring finesse and cunning to really work of course. So I’m not suggesting Unstoppable WomboCombo.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Speaking of Mandrakes made me check the range again. And unless I’m missing something obvious? Everything currently in the army is available as a plastic kit these days.
That’s…kind of a win. Well. Perhaps more “not a loss, bit more than a draw”. Certainly it says to me nothing needs a resculpt. Because even the now ancient even if I don’t want to acknowledge the remorseless march of time Warriors and Wyches remain….really solid kits with lots of options. And indeed cross compatibility.
And we all hopefully know by now to be very, very careful what we wish for when it comes to GW Refreshses.
But even that warning aside? They don’t look their age. At all. Such was the quality of the 15 years or so ago range redo.
So even more, building on my previous posts? Now is the time for More Entirely New Units.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Just ragged on the original Mandrake rules in a completely unrelated thread.
Basically, and from memory, you positioned three models from the unit on the board. These represented possible locations for the squad. Each could move normally, and couldn’t be engaged (they’re not actually there). Then you eventually decided where they actually were by picking one of the markers, and deploying the squad in coherency with it.
The unit then promptly did nothing except give away cheap VPs when your opponent promptly slaughtered them. Turns out Elves in Gimp Suits with oversized cutlery do not a thorny opponent make.
Anyways. That got me to thinking. Dark Eldar are sometimes (often?) described as a Glass Cannon. But to the best of my of my knowledge, they’re currently All Glass, No Cannon. And all the fancy movement tricks in the world can’t help you if your mightiest attack is akin to tutting at someone.
So how do you put some powder in their keg? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the army requiring finesse and cunning to really work of course. So I’m not suggesting Unstoppable WomboCombo.
How much cannon you have depends upon what units you select.
My T2 is often pretty punchy when my Aircraft enter play.
The Phazer wrote: Valrak has been saying for a long time that his sources say that Gray Knights and Dark Eldar are both getting major refreshes in 11th.
I suspect they might be split into a few waves like the Craftworld Eldar but I hope there'll be good news for the DE players soon.
So long as they don't screw over my existing GK/Drukhari forces....
The Phazer wrote: Valrak has been saying for a long time that his sources say that Gray Knights and Dark Eldar are both getting major refreshes in 11th.
I suspect they might be split into a few waves like the Craftworld Eldar but I hope there'll be good news for the DE players soon.
So long as they don't screw over my existing GK/Drukhari forces....
Hopefully the refresh kills the baby carriers for GK.
The Phazer wrote: Valrak has been saying for a long time that his sources say that Gray Knights and Dark Eldar are both getting major refreshes in 11th.
I suspect they might be split into a few waves like the Craftworld Eldar but I hope there'll be good news for the DE players soon.
So long as they don't screw over my existing GK/Drukhari forces....
Hopefully the refresh kills the baby carriers for GK.
It just seems crazy to me that they didn't make the opportunity to have the dreadknight as a special dreadnought chassis where the greatest heroes have their sarcophagus lowered into the daemon brawling frame.
It is thoroughly unconvincing that they can go 1v1 a greater daemon using joysticks
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: But to the best of my of my knowledge, they’re currently All Glass, No Cannon.
One of the reasons I suggested adding more "normally designed" weapons. They lean very heavily on Poison, which this edition turns into Anti-Infantry. Which is gangbusters against Terminators and Gravis. And strangely Wraith? Hilarious if they take Centurions. Not so great against Sentinels and Tau Suits. Or Speeders. Or Bikers. Their whole niche just fails in this edition. Sitting on a motorcycle makes you immune to poison. Wearing Terminator Armor does not. Wearing a smaller battle suit makes you immune. Being a magical construct that has no circulatory system, or internal organs does not.
They need a better representation of poison period. And they need more options vs Tiny(think Crisis Suits) to medium vehicles (Think Sentinels, Ravagers, War Walkers, and so on) Too many units go from Splinter Rifles to Dark Lances with nothing in between.
I’m not up on the weapon stats. But would it help if the Splinter Rifles moved to a nominal S (3 or 4 say), and rather than a fixed anti-infantry, got a re-roll against infantry?
Also, I don’t want this to sound like a cheap shot, but the issue feels more certain units not being infantry when perhaps they should?
The Phazer wrote: Valrak has been saying for a long time that his sources say that Gray Knights and Dark Eldar are both getting major refreshes in 11th.
I suspect they might be split into a few waves like the Craftworld Eldar but I hope there'll be good news for the DE players soon.
So long as they don't screw over my existing GK/Drukhari forces....
Hopefully the refresh kills the baby carriers for GK.
I doubt it given we JUST got an upgrade sprue for the kit.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m not up on the weapon stats. But would it help if the Splinter Rifles moved to a nominal S (3 or 4 say), and rather than a fixed anti-infantry, got a re-roll against infantry?
Also, I don’t want this to sound like a cheap shot, but the issue feels more certain units not being infantry when perhaps they should?
Splinter Rifles are S3. They're Anti-Infantry Lasguns. Part of the issue is things are infantry that shouldn't be - or aren't and should be. Part of the problem is that Poison works the same no matter the armor. A guardsman wearing a cotton shirt is more susceptible to poison than a Marine in Tactical Dreadnought Armor. In an ideal world (pre-planning and supporting Poison, Haywire and others) every unit would have Organic and/or Mechanical keywords. Most of the issue is that too few Dark Eldar units have mid-strength stat'ed weapons or consider strength at all. Everywhere else I see power weapons are (racial S+1). Dark eldar are still S3. Eldar Storm Guardians are S4. Marines are S5. Even if everything was keyworded in a way to "properly" represent Poison Dark Eldar would still have holes for mounted, and the vehicles too "small" to require a Dark Lance. The problem becomes even more obvious and worse when you get to the melee weapons. They do not have power fists, chain fists, thunder hammers or anything like them. Only Wracks have a melee with Strength higher than 4. Because its 5. And its Limit 1. That's a problem against Crisis Suits. You pretty much have to shoot them in a war of attrition. Or if we fix the keywords, its a problem against Wraithblades. They just don't have enough units with enough tools for non-infantry in T5-T8ish ranges.
So my feeling of “all glass, no cannon” was a pretty good guess?
I get the background is about the poison being tailored to inflict a blissfully agonising death, as it’s the emotions of agony that feeds them*
But, and I promise I’m just a horror fan and not a nutter? There are other ways to inflict agony.
If we look to the wider setting, let’s consider the Ad-Mech Torsion cannon. A ranged weapon that uses contra-rotating Grav fields to rend and tear the victim apart.
Put that in the hands of Dark Eldar. Miniaturise the tech to be infantry portable. Presto! Enemy literally crippled. Place bets on which limb will shatter first! Really in need of a drink? Slow the rotation down. Take your time. Need a quick pick me up? Dial it up and turn your target’s extremities into horrific, fleshy springs!
And so on and so forth.
*though who knows, maybe a single viewing of Monsters Inc could give them a whole new approach!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I’m not up on the weapon stats. But would it help if the Splinter Rifles moved to a nominal S (3 or 4 say), and rather than a fixed anti-infantry, got a re-roll against infantry?
Also, I don’t want this to sound like a cheap shot, but the issue feels more certain units not being infantry when perhaps they should?
Really IMO the ‘poison’ weapons ought to get anti mounted, even if a worse value (E.g. 4+ rather than 3+ vs infantry). At least the guns (maybe not Lelith). It’s bizarre that horses are immune to poison and, as said up thread, fairly odd that a bike gives you that immunity as well.
It’s appropriate I think that monsters need dark lances and the like to kill (though incubi do a good job in some detachments); and it’ll leave battlesuits as the only real hole.
Breton wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m not up on the weapon stats. But would it help if the Splinter Rifles moved to a nominal S (3 or 4 say), and rather than a fixed anti-infantry, got a re-roll against infantry?
Also, I don’t want this to sound like a cheap shot, but the issue feels more certain units not being infantry when perhaps they should?
Splinter Rifles are S3. They're Anti-Infantry Lasguns. Part of the issue is things are infantry that shouldn't be - or aren't and should be. Part of the problem is that Poison works the same no matter the armor. A guardsman wearing a cotton shirt is more susceptible to poison than a Marine in Tactical Dreadnought Armor. In an ideal world (pre-planning and supporting Poison, Haywire and others) every unit would have Organic and/or Mechanical keywords. Most of the issue is that too few Dark Eldar units have mid-strength stat'ed weapons or consider strength at all. Everywhere else I see power weapons are (racial S+1). Dark eldar are still S3. Eldar Storm Guardians are S4. Marines are S5. Even if everything was keyworded in a way to "properly" represent Poison Dark Eldar would still have holes for mounted, and the vehicles too "small" to require a Dark Lance. The problem becomes even more obvious and worse when you get to the melee weapons. They do not have power fists, chain fists, thunder hammers or anything like them. Only Wracks have a melee with Strength higher than 4. Because its 5. And its Limit 1. That's a problem against Crisis Suits. You pretty much have to shoot them in a war of attrition. Or if we fix the keywords, its a problem against Wraithblades. They just don't have enough units with enough tools for non-infantry in T5-T8ish ranges.
Splinter rifles are S2 (I don’t think they’ve been S3 since the 5th Ed Codex came out), so they’re essentially on 6+ vs anything that isn’t infantry as it’s going to be at least T4. The codex really struggles into mass mounted.
There are a few higher S melee units. Incubi are S5 now (though their pain ability is only useful vs infantry), Archons can get to S5-6 with a soul trap depending on their weapon.
All the special characters can get there as well - Malys is S5, Drazhar is S5/6 (depending on mode) and Lelith can make her special weapon wyches S5 with pain.
As long as there’s not too many of the tricky units, these can make a good show of it in melee - especially in Skysplinter.
Splinter rifles are S2 (I don’t think they’ve been S3 since the 5th Ed Codex came out), so they’re essentially on 6+ vs anything that isn’t infantry as it’s going to be at least T4. The codex really struggles into mass mounted.
Whoops, you're right, I didn't go straight down the chart and ended up over a column.
There are a few higher S melee units. Incubi are S5 now (though their pain ability is only useful vs infantry), Archons can get to S5-6 with a soul trap depending on their weapon.
All the special characters can get there as well - Malys is S5, Drazhar is S5/6 (depending on mode) and Lelith can make her special weapon wyches S5 with pain.
As long as there’s not too many of the tricky units, these can make a good show of it in melee - especially in Skysplinter.
That I don't know about, I was looking at the Battleline units not the "elites" and characters. Still S6 is not S8 and the Sentinels and such are T7.
Depends of the unit and the target:
Dark Lances are pretty good and can be taken in pretty scary quantities.
Incubi are ridiculously lethal into medium and heavy infantry (unless they have strikes first) and in Skysplinter do good work vs pretty much everything.
Post Codex disintegrator ravagers are also decent in some detachments.
Everything else is very target dependent.
Post Codex Wyches do good damage into light-medium infantry but bounce off most else.
Haywire wrecks vehicles but nothing else
Splinters are great into low save infantry (especially high T low save like Orks and basic Votann), but bounce off high saves and are useless vs non-infantry.
Either way though you have to mass your firepower into a small number of targets each turn as you need the kills for more pain.
It does sound like Warriors need some kind of squad weapon option.
I think it would likely be a One or Other loadout, so no mixing and matching to cover lots of bases. But then with typically modest squad sizes as I understand it, the mix and match may be a risk unto itself.
They’ve long since had Haywire Blasters as a tech. So why not Haywire Rifles? Because your opponent fancy suit of thick personal armour might as well be a prison if someone turns it off. Just ask the Red Butchers of Heresy Era World Eaters.
No idea what the current Haywire Blaster rules are. But even S2 (Anti-Vehicle 4+ or 5+) could be a solution? And give Warriors some skin in the game as your backstop unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ideally modelificated as a pack-in expansion sprue.
Splinter rifles are S2 (I don’t think they’ve been S3 since the 5th Ed Codex came out), so they’re essentially on 6+ vs anything that isn’t infantry as it’s going to be at least T4. The codex really struggles into mass mounted.
Whoops, you're right, I didn't go straight down the chart and ended up over a column.
There are a few higher S melee units. Incubi are S5 now (though their pain ability is only useful vs infantry), Archons can get to S5-6 with a soul trap depending on their weapon.
All the special characters can get there as well - Malys is S5, Drazhar is S5/6 (depending on mode) and Lelith can make her special weapon wyches S5 with pain.
As long as there’s not too many of the tricky units, these can make a good show of it in melee - especially in Skysplinter.
That I don't know about, I was looking at the Battleline units not the "elites" and characters. Still S6 is not S8 and the Sentinels and such are T7.
Yeah, Sentinels can be a problem, especially if there’s lots of them. Tough enough that Dark Lances aren’t on 2+ (and there’s probably more important targets for them) and the battleline stuff is having a bad time (Lelith’s wyches aside). Incubi will still mess them up though (and there aren’t that many better targets in guard), as will taloi at S8-9 (though they’re pretty slow and have to get there).
I think it would likely be a One or Other loadout, so no mixing and matching to cover lots of bases. But then with typically modest squad sizes as I understand it, the mix and match may be a risk unto itself.
They’ve long since had Haywire Blasters as a tech. So why not Haywire Rifles? Because your opponent fancy suit of thick personal armour might as well be a prison if someone turns it off. Just ask the Red Butchers of Heresy Era World Eaters.
No idea what the current Haywire Blaster rules are. But even S2 (Anti-Vehicle 4+ or 5+) could be a solution? And give Warriors some skin in the game as your backstop unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ideally modelificated as a pack-in expansion sprue.
Haywire blasters are S3, anti-vehicle 4+ Dev Wounds D3.
The bigger harlequin ones are S4, so a 1 shot S2 one would make sense for a massed infantry version. Both guns being S2 into the less good targets would also have some symmetry.
I guess if you are playing your friends all bikes army or someone with a fancy of Imperial Guard horsemen then they kind of suffer a bit, but how many were you bringing anyway? Into regular infantry its a BS3+ Wounding on 3s AP- gun - with assault 2 range 24. That's better than a bolter in most circumstances.
And you do get a dark lance, a blaster, a blast pistol, a shredder and a splinter cannon.
I find the idea that DE are dependent on poison a bit weird when its essentially just one unit. (Or I guess the Hand of the Archon, which is really just Kabalites+).
Wyches blend. Incubi blend. Hellions blend. Reavers are good for objectives. Scourge with Dark Lances are great.
I think it would likely be a One or Other loadout, so no mixing and matching to cover lots of bases. But then with typically modest squad sizes as I understand it, the mix and match may be a risk unto itself.
They’ve long since had Haywire Blasters as a tech. So why not Haywire Rifles? Because your opponent fancy suit of thick personal armour might as well be a prison if someone turns it off. Just ask the Red Butchers of Heresy Era World Eaters.
No idea what the current Haywire Blaster rules are. But even S2 (Anti-Vehicle 4+ or 5+) could be a solution? And give Warriors some skin in the game as your backstop unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ideally modelificated as a pack-in expansion sprue.
Blasters are still there, but no longer "Haywire" and ranged similar to Melta (6" pistol, 18" something) They can have four "upgrades" out of 10 models, only one of each, plus one pistol on the "sergeant". They're the ones in the "best" shape
They can have:
A blaster that looks roughly parallel but weaker to a single shot Multimelta without the Melta. Or a Meltagun with more range and less punch depending on which direction you want to go.
A splinter cannon that is to Splinter Rifles as Heavy Bolters are to Heavy Bolt Rifles. i.e. the same thing just more shots.
A Shredder (Longer range S6 but still AP0 flamer)
A Dark Lance (I assume everyone can draw the parallel to a lascannon)
Additionally the squad leader can have a Blast Pistol which will remind you of a slightly weaker melta/inferno pistol without the Melta rule.
Wyches get:
The Blast Pistol on the Sergeant.
Wracks get:
Up to two Sniper Rifles with longer ranged but 1 shot overcharged but not hazardous plasma-ish damage
And the S5 Power Weapon. But only on the Sergeant.
If you include the Dedicated Transports, the Raider is in pretty good shape. Imagine being able to choose Las Cannon or Grav Cannon. Not a bad range. But the Venom is barely better than a Rhino.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hellebore wrote: Imo the poison should be more of an army rule rather than a weapon rule.
Like once per phase one of each of these 6 poisons can be used by one unit that affects their attacks thusly:
X
Y
Z
Then you can have tailored poisons to monsters vehicles, characters, units etc that are more than just X+ to wound.
It becomes like the craftworld battle focus that gives them a toolkit to apply mega sledgehammers where they need to
I would have inverted the armor save for a sliding scale. If you're attacking something with a 2+ armor save, Poison crit wounds on a 6+ If you're Attacking something with a 6+ armor save, you crit wound on a 2+, and then I'd still give their weaponry a normal S so you can normal wound something with a 2+ armor save, or Crit Wound on a 6+. Depending on how that works out on the math, it could/should also then invoke Devastating Wounds.
The Phazer wrote: Valrak has been saying for a long time that his sources say that Gray Knights and Dark Eldar are both getting major refreshes in 11th.
I suspect they might be split into a few waves like the Craftworld Eldar but I hope there'll be good news for the DE players soon.
So long as they don't screw over my existing GK/Drukhari forces....
Hopefully the refresh kills the baby carriers for GK.
I hope not. I mean, I wouldn't mind if GW made them less stupid looking,... i might even be tempted to replace my existing one.
But i definitely dont want them to drop the unit altogether as that be screwing up my army.
Or if they do drop them? Then as long as they put them in Legends I'd also be fine.
How much cannon should they have to their glass? Drawing on Oldhammer, it was the Goody Two Shoes Eldar that were your Glass Hammer.
Used well, they hit like a freight train and typically didn’t leave an awful lot, bar the opposing player, to complain. But even slight errors in positioning, or not quite being in charge range leaving a unit out in the open, pants round their ankles? They were an easy army to punish. Low toughness, low model count, low to average saves will do that for you.
Classic examples would be Howling Banshees. On paper? A unit of Howling Banshees was absolutely nothing to even a single heavy bolter. Heck, they were at risk from even a single squad of Guardsmen plinking away with Lasguns. But, if they got the charge? The Dice Gods need to have really, really had it in for you if they didn’t slaughter their target handily.
Not only did they have decent fighty stats (High I for those draws, Power Swords for heavy hitting and those Parries to help dodge those odd losses, solid WS). But those Banshee Masks crippled the enemy, reducing their WS to 0 when the Banshees got the charge. Lone characters? Massacred. Squads up to but not really including Terminators? Massacred.
Warp Spiders? Yeah don’t talk to non-Eldar 2nd Ed Veterans about Warp Spiders. Nobody needs to make grown men cry. But again? Catch them out, and they were rapidly toast.
Even your basic Guardians, when upgraded to Shuriken Catapults were horrors. Just, as ever, horrors that went away fairly smartly if you got the chance to shoot back.
And so the entire army really embraced the Glass Cannon/Hammer thing. And a poorly lead Eldar army was, probably, the easiest game of 2nd Ed you’d ever play.
Dark Eldar I think really need to lean into that more. But I couldn’t say if there’s flaws in the underlying modern 40K rules set preventing that really coming to pass.
Dark Eldar need ways to be unpredictable to the enemy with their deployment. They need to pop up, wreck face, and duck for cover. If they fail? It's a "it was at this moment, they knew they f***ed up".
DE really are an all-or-nothing force.
For anti psychers wargear, I'd like something that has a chance of reflecting a power back onto the psychers/ nearby unit. Hit me with a force weapon? There's a 50% chance you actually stabbed yourself.
I'm playing catch-up with the thread. In broad strokes:
I'm not sure drukhari necessarily need "more cannon". I think we just the cannon we have to be less specialized. GW switching from "Poison" to "Anti-Infantry" had some weird consequences for us in some matchups. It used to be that all our poison weapons were decent at punching up into high toughness non-vehicles like bikes, mounted units, etc. We were even weirdly good against Monsters, though admittedly that might have been too much. Nowadays, your splinters are useless into things like bikes, and your lances are needed against vehicles, so the only part of your army that can efficiently trade with the enemy's bikes, t-cav, etc., are things like blasters (normally not something you have a ton of) and mid-strength melee units like hellions or incubi.
And on a similar note, blasters getting the meltagun treatment (not having their strenght scaled up to match vehicle toughness) means that you can't reliably count on blasters to help against vehicles like you used to, which puts even more pressure on your lances.
I feel like swapping "anti-infantry" on all our stuff that has it and replacing that with an army rule called "Poison" that is basically anti-everything-except-vehicles-and-monsters would help get rid of a lot of awkward interactions. Making blasters and blast pistols competent anti-tank threats again would free up more of your dark light to reach out and help against threats that poison can't handle as well. Basically divide our offense into anti-big-stuff and anti-little-stuff rather than also having this anti-medium-stuff bracket in the middle throwing things off.
Additionally or alternatively, I wish they'd bring back some of our old ability to mitigate threats temporarily. What I *loved* about haywire back in the day was that it could *very* reliably keep an enemy vehicle out of the fight for a turn without requiring you to murder it outright. And there used to be forum discussions about the correct number of wyches to take in a squad so that you could win combat without killing the enemy outright so you could hide in combat for a turn. The 8th/9th edition of shardnets preventing enemies from running away allowed for a similar tactic.
Basically, we used to be better at pinning down a couple of threats here and there with some of our units while our hammer units dealt killing blows. And so part of playing the army was figuring out how to tie-up some threats with relatively cheap units while your more expensive units silenced the enemy for good. It was a decent way to emphasize our skill and portray some of that "sadists playing with their food" energy. Nowadays, GW mostly just has us playing the trading pieces game where we send a suicide squad to kill an enemy unit before inevitably getting blasted to pieces in return, and the game is basically a question of whether or not you spent your suicide missiles on the right enemy targets.
My favorite versions of dark eldar have always had this feeling of pulling off wins by the skin of your teeth. Where your whole fleet of raiders zoomed in to pounce on the enemy and you had wyches and incubi spilling out to tie up and kill key units, and your scourges were doing their best to haywire that big, tough thing in the back that couldn't be killed yet. And then your opponent attacked back, and some of your stuff died, but other stuff was still alive because it had taken an enemy unit hostage in melee, or because your vehicles had zoomed *so fast* they got a cover save that kept them alive for an extra turn. Modern dark eldar don't really have much of that. GW kind of gave up on it in 9th when they just made us hyper-lethal and nothing else, and 10th edition drukhari are still sort of recovering from that. Plus, we have the same issues as craftworlders where 10th edition is basically a cage match that wants you to stand out in the open standing on magic circles while you wait for the enemy to kill you.
Regarding the faction being split up into subfactions too heavily, agreed. The first and best version of GW doing this was 5th edition where they simply gave us troop and character options to potentially field exclusively kabal/cult/coven without having to take a bunch of the other stuff. It felt like the fluff was being acknowledged without getting in the way. Every codex after that, the divisions have caused us to have to jump through hoops to avoid having those divisions be an active liability. 10th edition isn't terrible about this, but it does mean that half our detachments will cause you to either ignore half the codex or have chunks of your army that don't benefit from them.
Anti-psyker stuff: I don't think drukhari need to go out of their way to have a ton of this, but the crucible of malediction is a classic. You could probably sprinkle around a couple other anti-psyker effects if you really wanted to. Give mandrakes an option that says their tattoos protect against warp effects. Bring back Malys's Crystal Heart psychic defense. Maybe say that getting shot by a Medusae scrambles your brains and makes psychic powers extra dangerous or unreliable to use for a turn. Etc.
If you were going to swap Anti-Infantry X+ to a Poison rule, I'd have it be Poison(X+, Y+), where Y+ is for Monsters (as Poison should affect them), while the X+ is for Anti-whatever-other-keywords-we-need-to-cover-here.
I should note that, shot per shot, a Bolt Rifle is actually equal to a Splinter Rifle into TEQ, and better into MEQ. It is affected by cover/Armor of Contempt, which Splinter Rifles are not, but it’s still kinda a drag.
Dysartes wrote: If you were going to swap Anti-Infantry X+ to a Poison rule, I'd have it be Poison(X+, Y+), where Y+ is for Monsters (as Poison should affect them), while the X+ is for Anti-whatever-other-keywords-we-need-to-cover-here.
X+ and Y+ can then vary depending by unit/weapon.
Huh. Yeah, that would probably be a decent way to reflect the fluff without making splinter weapons overwhelming for MCs. Good idea.
There's also a more complicated discussion to be had about what poison should actually be doing in the first place. Is it actually there to make the army more lethal? Is it more of a specialized tool (Like the death watch special ammo) that defaults to knocking out future-slaves but can come in other variants for targets that are too dangerous to leave alive? Should it perhaps have a higher Damage stat against beefier targets but still wound with as much difficulty as a more conventional weapon? Should a volley of poisoned projectiles be assumed to have left a bunch of minor, non-lethal scratches on the target that then causes them to be debuffed or even take damage over time?
The assumption in the past seems to have been this idea that you just needed to get tiny wound onto a target that otherwise wouldn't incapacitate them, and then the toxins turned the wound into something actually potent. I.e. your splinter rifle hit a carnifex in the claw, which wouldn't be lethal if we were talking about a shuriken or a bolter, but then the poison seeped into its system and did some telling damage anyway.
I feel like character lhameans and wargear options for haemonculi would be great places to play around with what effects poison actually has. Want poison weapons that work on vehicles? (A canonical thing that we had rules for an edition or two ago.) Bring a lhamean who's authorized to tell everyone to load up the special rounds she handed out before the raid.
Dysartes wrote: If you were going to swap Anti-Infantry X+ to a Poison rule, I'd have it be Poison(X+, Y+), where Y+ is for Monsters (as Poison should affect them), while the X+ is for Anti-whatever-other-keywords-we-need-to-cover-here.
X+ and Y+ can then vary depending by unit/weapon.
Surely Monsters having, typically, loads of wounds and decent armour would be balance enough?
I say this as someone who remembers the boredom of Nidzilla being occasionally alleviated when they ran into the then rare Dark Eldar, and got all pizzened 2 def super quickly. Was never my win, true. But to see the smug grin of a Nidzilla Goit* wiped off their idiot chudly countenance was therapeutic.
*Not to be confused with a Tyranid player who happens to like big gribbly monsters. Like how my love for Dreadnoughts, and Contemptors being well beardy in 2nd Ed Heresy are two separate things.
Dysartes wrote: If you were going to swap Anti-Infantry X+ to a Poison rule, I'd have it be Poison(X+, Y+), where Y+ is for Monsters (as Poison should affect them), while the X+ is for Anti-whatever-other-keywords-we-need-to-cover-here.
X+ and Y+ can then vary depending by unit/weapon.
Surely Monsters having, typically, loads of wounds and decent armour would be balance enough?
I say this as someone who remembers the boredom of Nidzilla being occasionally alleviated when they ran into the then rare Dark Eldar, and got all pizzened 2 def super quickly. Was never my win, true. But to see the smug grin of a Nidzilla Goit* wiped off their idiot chudly countenance was therapeutic.
*Not to be confused with a Tyranid player who happens to like big gribbly monsters. Like how my love for Dreadnoughts, and Contemptors being well beardy in 2nd Ed Heresy are two separate things.
I'm not sure, to be honest. Monsters pay points for high toughness stats. My gut says that having the basic weapons of an army wound Monsters on 3+ or 4+ with no regard for their Toughness would probably be easy to make imbalanced. Especially given that said weapons need to be cheap enough to also be your go-to horde-clearing tool.
Marine bolters are frequently wounding tanks on 4+ thanks to Oath of Moment. How feels-bad would it be to have drukhari wounding similarly costed models on a 3+ army-wide for fewer points?
Just feels like the balancing factor of heavily theming a list.
My snarky comments about Nidzilla Chudlys earlier? The price of really leaning into One Thing is, sooner or later, you’ll run into your natural counter. The army you just struggle against.
JNAProductions wrote: I should note that, shot per shot, a Bolt Rifle is actually equal to a Splinter Rifle into TEQ, and better into MEQ. It is affected by cover/Armor of Contempt, which Splinter Rifles are not, but it’s still kinda a drag.
Why exactly is it a drag that the Marine basic weapon is equal into Terminator Armor when compared to the Dark Eldar basic weapon?
JNAProductions wrote: I should note that, shot per shot, a Bolt Rifle is actually equal to a Splinter Rifle into TEQ, and better into MEQ. It is affected by cover/Armor of Contempt, which Splinter Rifles are not, but it’s still kinda a drag.
Why exactly is it a drag that the Marine basic weapon is equal into Terminator Armor when compared to the Dark Eldar basic weapon?
Because the splinter rifle is a specific anti-infantry weapon on a faction about hitting hard before melting. The bolt rifle is generalist weapon held by the target the Splinter rifles are meant to be useful into.
Dysartes wrote: If you were going to swap Anti-Infantry X+ to a Poison rule, I'd have it be Poison(X+, Y+), where Y+ is for Monsters (as Poison should affect them), while the X+ is for Anti-whatever-other-keywords-we-need-to-cover-here.
X+ and Y+ can then vary depending by unit/weapon.
Maybe they should make 'Biological' a keyword to make poisoned weapons make more sense? Also, so that poison doesn't work on Necrons?
Maybe they should make 'Biological' a keyword to make poisoned weapons make more sense? Also, so that poison doesn't work on Necrons?
I think this is a good idea in theory, but how many keywords do we need? I’ve seen similar arguments about how invuln saves should also be flagged as tough/magic/dodge to help interact with things that ignore them in prior editions.
If we start tagging units/guns/rules with more keywords it gives us a lot more hooks for interactions. Which makes for some more realistic rules interactions. We have a few now, like psychic. Having more would allow for more granularity. But the worry would be bloating the datasheet. Not to make a slippery slope argument, but how many other rules besides poison could use a flag to help sort things out? We want both a granular system that makes sense, and one streamlined enough to play.
On that note, I’m fine with poison being a hard counter for monster lists. Outside of one army, it’s pretty rare. Sure it’s going to make some bad match ups between nidzilla and dark eldar players. But that happens when you make skew lists. I’d rather keep a simple “wound non-vehicles on a X+” then have to add complexity.
All that said, I do think adding a biological/inorganic keyword to everything is not unreasonable. It’s not just poison, but also stuff like haywire a some mental stuff. and terrain. Since it has a number of things that hook off of it, it’s not unreasonable.
JNAProductions wrote: I should note that, shot per shot, a Bolt Rifle is actually equal to a Splinter Rifle into TEQ, and better into MEQ. It is affected by cover/Armor of Contempt, which Splinter Rifles are not, but it’s still kinda a drag.
Why exactly is it a drag that the Marine basic weapon is equal into Terminator Armor when compared to the Dark Eldar basic weapon?
Because the splinter rifle is a specific anti-infantry weapon on a faction about hitting hard before melting. The bolt rifle is generalist weapon held by the target the Splinter rifles are meant to be useful into.
A generalist weapon? What makes it a generalist weapon? Is there some sort of Anti-tank profile I'm unfamiliar with? Does it get S12 vs Monsters?
Maybe they should make 'Biological' a keyword to make poisoned weapons make more sense? Also, so that poison doesn't work on Necrons?
I think this is a good idea in theory, but how many keywords do we need?
Well this was only part of the theory. Everything should have Biological (Some dude in a shirt, a big giant bug monster) or Mechanical (a floaty tau drone, a Land Raider), or rarely both (Bikers, more?) There are probably at least a few other categories that can be applied in similar fashion to help abilities like this be a more discerning "rule breaker".
It's a drag because Kabalites, at 11.5 points per model and two shots per Kabalite, do less damage into common Infantry than an Intercessor does, with their 16 points per model and four shots per guy.
JNAProductions wrote: I should note that, shot per shot, a Bolt Rifle is actually equal to a Splinter Rifle into TEQ, and better into MEQ. It is affected by cover/Armor of Contempt, which Splinter Rifles are not, but it’s still kinda a drag.
Why exactly is it a drag that the Marine basic weapon is equal into Terminator Armor when compared to the Dark Eldar basic weapon?
Because the splinter rifle is a specific anti-infantry weapon on a faction about hitting hard before melting. The bolt rifle is generalist weapon held by the target the Splinter rifles are meant to be useful into.
A generalist weapon? What makes it a generalist weapon? Is there some sort of Anti-tank profile I'm unfamiliar with? Does it get S12 vs Monsters?
Holy mother of strawman arguments.
You know it doesn't, you know that I'm comparing a specialist weapon with no ap and 1 damage that has anti-infantry 3+ to a weapon with more range, shots, ap and no specialism.
That doesn't magically make it an ideal anti-tank weapon. It means it's more applicable to a wider range of targets.
Maybe they should make 'Biological' a keyword to make poisoned weapons make more sense? Also, so that poison doesn't work on Necrons?
I think this is a good idea in theory, but how many keywords do we need?
Well this was only part of the theory. Everything should have Biological (Some dude in a shirt, a big giant bug monster) or Mechanical (a floaty tau drone, a Land Raider), or rarely both (Bikers, more?) There are probably at least a few other categories that can be applied in similar fashion to help abilities like this be a more discerning "rule breaker".
At the minute I think Biological, Mechanical (which would include buildings, I guess) and Daemonic would probably cover all bases, off the top of my head?
I agree that units could cover two of those categories, too - bikers, the Primario Kart, the Marine Warsuit, the GK Baby Carrier, etc.
BorderCountess wrote:
Maybe they should make 'Biological' a keyword to make poisoned weapons make more sense? Also, so that poison doesn't work on Necrons?
'Crons vs drukhari have always been a bit odd where the poison thing is concerned. The usual explanation is that when drukhkari know they're going to find metal robots, they load up on the metallotoxic or haywire-infused rounds instead of the usual poisons. It's a workable explanation if a bit of a stretch.
But obviously the real reason poison weapons work on 'crons is that mechanically having an army be immune to another army's basic guns is a nightmare in terms of game balance. Even if you off-set the problem somewhat by giving splinter weapons a pip or two of strength, you'd still have things like agonizers underperforming army-wide.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Was just thinking about other armies, and realised perhaps DE could do with something akin to Barbgaunts?
Whilst reasonably shooty, the Barbgaunts main advantage is hampering enemy movement. That seems like a tool DE could do an awful lot with?
I could see something like that being tied to certain unit or weapon types. Basically the idea being that the last splinter volley didn't do much *damage*, but it knicked the target a bunch and microdosed them with some paralytics making them more sluggish. Sort of like a mobility version of the fire warrior's rule that imposes -1 to-hit on whatever they shoot at.
The question becomes one of application, I think. The current kabalite special rule does a lot to help drukhari not feel like they have to loiter in magic circles. Tying it to the weapon profile instead of making it a unit ability would mean you'd be able to sprinkle the debuff on basically your opponnet's entire army if you were so inclined. It probably works as a strat or a character lhamean rule, etc. But then it's not helping all the other poison weapons in your army.
JNAProductions wrote: It's a drag because Kabalites, at 11.5 points per model and two shots per Kabalite, do less damage into common Infantry than an Intercessor does, with their 16 points per model and four shots per guy.
It’s a drag that models who cost less per model do the same damage vs TEQ but slightly? less against MEQ?
Should Khaballite Warriors at 11.5 ppm do more per model damage into anything than 16 point intercessors for some reason?
What is that reason?
Is there a reason you’ve move from this gun vs that gun to this unit vs that unit?
I should note that, shot per shot, a Bolt Rifle is actually equal to a Splinter Rifle into TEQ, and better into MEQ. It is affected by cover/Armor of Contempt, which Splinter Rifles are not, but it’s still kinda a drag.
Is there a reason you’ve moved to unit vs unit, include one units one bespoke, but not any of the other bespokes or upgrades?
JNAProductions wrote: I should note that, shot per shot, a Bolt Rifle is actually equal to a Splinter Rifle into TEQ, and better into MEQ. It is affected by cover/Armor of Contempt, which Splinter Rifles are not, but it’s still kinda a drag.
Why exactly is it a drag that the Marine basic weapon is equal into Terminator Armor when compared to the Dark Eldar basic weapon?
Because the splinter rifle is a specific anti-infantry weapon on a faction about hitting hard before melting. The bolt rifle is generalist weapon held by the target the Splinter rifles are meant to be useful into.
A generalist weapon? What makes it a generalist weapon? Is there some sort of Anti-tank profile I'm unfamiliar with? Does it get S12 vs Monsters?
Holy mother of strawman arguments.
You know it doesn't, you know that I'm comparing a specialist weapon with no ap and 1 damage that has anti-infantry 3+ to a weapon with more range, shots, ap and no specialism.
That doesn't magically make it an ideal anti-tank weapon. It means it's more applicable to a wider range of targets.
Taking one for the team after the other thread, stop having such a raging hate boner at the idea of anyone having any opinion of marines that isn't assuming they're perfect and the best.
You should google the definition of strawman. I didn't change your claim. This wasn't it.
As for things I know and don't know:
I know you (and the person who originally posted the observation) are comparing the basic weapon of the basic battleline unit to the basic weapon of another basic battleline unit and trying to justify (You may want to google Cherry Picking too) a reason for them to be differently powered.
I know this same person lamented the (inaccurate) fact that Captain Titus with what you would call a "specialist" Anti-Infantry Chainsword did more damage into MEQ than a Great Unclean One. When the GUO actually had a REAL generalist weapon with a Pick-One profile setup for Strike and Sweep.
I don't know why Khaballite Warriors with ANTI-Infantry guns should be more effective into MEQ vs Intercessors than a Captain with ANTI-Infantry swords into MEQ than a GUO.
A splinter rifle is equal into TEQshot per shot.
An intercessor is slightly more expensive (just shy of 40% more) but has twice as many shots per model.
JNAProductions wrote: A splinter rifle is equal into TEQshot per shot.
An intercessor is slightly more expensive (just shy of 40% more) but has twice as many shots per model.
Now we're back into shot-per-shot?
And I'm still not clear on why a BATTLELINE unit that costs ~50% shouldn't also put out ~50% of the BATTLELINE results?
JNAProductions wrote: A splinter rifle is equal into TEQshot per shot.
An intercessor is slightly more expensive (just shy of 40% more) but has twice as many shots per model.
Now we're back into shot-per-shot?
And I'm still not clear on why a BATTLELINE unit that costs ~50% shouldn't also put out ~50% of the BATTLELINE results?
Intercessors cost less than half again the points of Kabalites, while the basic dudes put out 200% the damage into TEQ and 225% into MEQ.
A 10-strong kabalite squad, with sarge having a rifle and max heavy weapons, expects to do 8/9ths a point of damage from 12 Splinter shots, about 2/3rds a point of damage from the Blaster, another 2/3rds from the Dark lance (I’m assuming they moved, since a lot of this is 18” range), a little over 1/3rd from the Shredder, and another 8/9ths from the Splinter cannon.
In total, that’s about 3.5 damage to TEQ.
7 Intercessors with one grenade launcher do about 2.1 damage from rifles and 4/9ths from the Grenade launcher. Totaling about 70% the damage from just about equal points.
Kabalites are slightly faster, but also significantly less durable.
Maybe they should make 'Biological' a keyword to make poisoned weapons make more sense? Also, so that poison doesn't work on Necrons?
I think this is a good idea in theory, but how many keywords do we need?
Well this was only part of the theory. Everything should have Biological (Some dude in a shirt, a big giant bug monster) or Mechanical (a floaty tau drone, a Land Raider), or rarely both (Bikers, more?) There are probably at least a few other categories that can be applied in similar fashion to help abilities like this be a more discerning "rule breaker".
At the minute I think Biological, Mechanical (which would include buildings, I guess) and Daemonic would probably cover all bases, off the top of my head?
I agree that units could cover two of those categories, too - bikers, the Primario Kart, the Marine Warsuit, the GK Baby Carrier, etc.
I would make (most?) Daemons Biological. We already have the DAEMON keyword that could be used if you're trying to create some sort of "Holy Water" rule similar to Poison/Haywire.
I would include the Kart (especially if they further refine Poison to be effective and/or applicable in a more focused manner, but not the Warsuit. The Warsuit (and the Nemesis Dreadknight), or War Walkers, and the like as they're more parallel to the Dreadnaughts. I think you'd have to kind of fudge the line back and forth to get the bikes and attack bike type units no matter what they look like, or this faction's dread because their model looks open topped but not that faction's because they're not. The Kart is now a VEHICLE but is also quite obviously a replacement for the Attack Bike, and would have been an ATTACK BIKE MOUNTED if not for the potential for apothecaries to ressurrect an entire 8W Attack bike. And few of them will be as obvious as the Kart. Skyrunners are obviously MOUNTED bikes. Voidweavers are far less obvious when trying to decide if they're a two crew-speeder, or an attack bike.
JNAProductions wrote: A splinter rifle is equal into TEQshot per shot.
An intercessor is slightly more expensive (just shy of 40% more) but has twice as many shots per model.
Now we're back into shot-per-shot?
And I'm still not clear on why a BATTLELINE unit that costs ~50% shouldn't also put out ~50% of the BATTLELINE results?
Intercessors cost less than half again the points of Kabalites, while the basic dudes put out 200% the damage into TEQ and 225% into MEQ.
A 10-strong kabalite squad, with sarge having a rifle and max heavy weapons, expects to do 8/9ths a point of damage from 12 Splinter shots, about 2/3rds a point of damage from the Blaster, another 2/3rds from the Dark lance (I’m assuming they moved, since a lot of this is 18” range), a little over 1/3rd from the Shredder, and another 8/9ths from the Splinter cannon.
In total, that’s about 3.5 damage to TEQ.
7 Intercessors with one grenade launcher do about 2.1 damage from rifles and 4/9ths from the Grenade launcher. Totaling about 70% the damage from just about equal points.
Kabalites are slightly faster, but also significantly less durable.
And now we're back to NOT Shot-for-shot.
And your math is wrong again. The average damage dealt by a Dark Lance is 5.5 (D6+2 = Average 3.5 +2 = 5.5) 5.5 damage that hits half the time is 2.75 Damage. 2.75 Damage that wounds 83.3% of the time is 2.29. 2.29 Damage that is nullified half the time by a 4++ invuln is 1.145. 1.145 is significantly more than .667.
How are you dealing 5.5 damage to a Terminator? Average damage into a W3 model cannot be higher than 3.
Edit: I should also note I’ve plainly stated what parameters I’m using each time. It shouldn’t be confusing what math refers to what models/weapons/etc. It’s valuable to look at multiple angles, not just one.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: My favourite question for any neglected army. What new units, or unit archetypes do you think would suit them?
So, before we even touch on new, we cover the returns...
- Vect on Dias of Destruction - with the Dias being more than a custom Ravager (I think someone mentioned Tantalus?), and the kit giving an option to build a standard Tantalus. Also give the option for a Vect on Foot in case you go for standard Tantalus.
- Grotesques, possibly as a dual-build kit with a melee unit and a ranged unit
- Multiple Beastmaster & pack kits, one for each of the beasts that went walkabout (I think that's 3?), with the Beastmaster having something for mobility if the unit is especilly quick.
- Court of the Archon - As someone mentioned elsewhere, the units for Huron & Titus cover this sort of thing. Maybe add an option or two to pad out?
- Urien Rakarth, in even more gribbly form
- Junior generic characters for each of the three main branches (which have had names for the ranks in the past, but I've forgotten them over time)
- From a rules perspective, the same access to Harlequins & Corsairs as their Craftworld equivalents
If I have missed anything that actually had a kit in the past, I apologise - I don't think we ever had "movement options for characters" as a release, so I'm avoiding them in the "returning" section. Also, if it doesn't have a datasheet for it now, add a datasheet for the Hand of the Archon that makes some use of the Kill Team bits.
As for new?
- Generic characters with movement options
- May as well do a model for Baron Siliscus (or however you spell it) if doing that
- A Wych unit designed to fight monsters, as I imagine that'd be a popular option in the pit fights, and the weaponry might not be the standard "Wych weapons"
- Actual kits for the Truebloods & the "elite" Wych unit (Bloodbrides?) - not sure if there was a Coven equivalent
- For a bit of an anvil unit, perhaps a "controlled" unit of Haemonculi'd Orks or something of that ilk - something chunky and obviously messed with that can hold an objective, has an in-unit Haemonculi pulling the strings, etc
- Some form of anti-psyker character - not full-on null, but someone who makes use of weird eldritch "tech" to both counter psychic abilities and remotely mess with their heads. I'm sure there are some old bits of DE wargear that might fight as equipment here
- A Kabal scout unit of some form - someone has to get the webway portals into place for the raiders to burst into realspace from, after all
So here's what i want.
Give us different bike units. Maybe either add a ranged bike unit with assault disintegrators (str 5, ap 2-3, damage 2, 3 shots, 18" range) or shredders and make every bike equipped with one instead of that 1 out of 3 nonsense. That and add some better melee options to the bikes whether weapons on the bikes themselves like instead of just a lamer version of grav talon and cluster caltrops maybe make those choices interesting again (lots of melee hits for caltrops and grav talons make enemies fight last with lower weapon skill or something) and give bikes a haywire option on the bike itself in melee or something that can even take down monsters or vehicles or give the bikes better melee options like spears or some really nasty bike blades that do more than normal bladvanes. Also make our bikes -1 to hit against shooting since the most stealthy hit and run faction deserves it if harlequins get it.
I haven't checked the latest codex but incubi with a 3+/5++ would be nice and maybe give them the ability to shoot from their helmets like they used to have. Then give them a form of webway ability like warp spiders except maybe allow them to move and jump into melee and jump out. Also give them more options besides the klaive as melee options. Also give them some fear options back where they scare the crap out of other units and need to make a leadership test on a certain amount to leave combat. That or make their webway ability and/or fear helmets allow the enemy to not overwatch when they charge.
I can't remember about the latest raider option but they should absolutely have assault ramps or some sort of thing for fast assaults.
Improve the fear options. Make them better and allow for more negative modifiers for enemy shooting (negative modifiers to ballistic skill, preventing overwatch or lowering their shooting ranges) or melee (strikes last or lower WS). The enemy should be disoriented, out-maneuvered and unaware. Also the lowered enemy ranges were normal vs raiders with certain upgrades in 5th.
Make archons good again. Allow them to give out buffs if they're in a transport and when they're out of them. Give them the option to take bikes, scourge wings, or hellions or at least give some of those options to the succubus. They should be either melee, fear inducing or shooting power-houses. Make them like the old Big meks where they shoot a gun at you that throws you into the warp if it rolls high enough except just make it fairly strong in general. Make the old huskblade archons that can boost their power until they can finally face monsters in combat and win.
Make haemonculus be massively anti-psyker like they used to be. Give them some super gun (like a super hex rifle that has massive ap and instant death as well as can pick out characters) or anti-monster weapon in melee.
Give us more vehicle options including the Dais of Destruction and maybe give more options to the ravager. We absolutely need one or two super heavies.
Add some sort of super monster like a talos except way bigger like a Knight.
Bring back grotesques and give them more melee options like one for anti-vehicle and make flesh gauntlets anti monster and anti infantry.
Give scourge a disintegrators option with 36" range and the jump-shoot-jump ability. Scourge also need 4+/5++ if they don't have it already.
More deep strike across the board, better movement ranges, better ability to lower incoming damage, better ability to tank for covens and better ability to increase damage and fear.
Bring back Medusae and have them do negative modifiers against the enemy if any enemies get wounded by them to make archon assaulting with them easier.
Make lhamean poison super strong and go through a lot of ap and hurt monsters and infantry really well.
Make poisoned attacks do more damage and have more ap in general.
Add a grenade type like phantasm except launched by haemonculus covens that makes enemies fight and hurt each other and do damage against themselves and/or prevent overwatch or count as if they're in melee.
More and better snipers for covens. There's no way a faction built around killing enemy leaders and causing mass panic in their opponents shouldn't like snipers or some form of enemy character killing.
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Some of these options would be fun but dark eldar have become increasing boring to play as. Last i played necrons could teleport out of combat and shoot into wych squads nets or no and a lot of things that could shoot into combat could kill wyches as well. Such a disappointment. That and any game with a lack of cover was just painful to play as dark eldar.
JNAProductions wrote: How are you dealing 5.5 damage to a Terminator?
Average damage into a W3 model cannot be higher than 3.
Average Damage into a 3 wound model can be higher than three but above three is lost. Unless it becomes Mortal.
You said TEQ not Tactical Terminator Squad. To me that means everybody with a T5 2+/4++ or close enough for napkin math. And Terminator Captains have 6. Assault Terminators with Storm Shields have 4. Bloodcrushers are fairly close to TEQ and have four wounds. Hellflayers at T6 wtih a 4++ are even closer to Terminator Identical to qualify as TEQ. Broadside Battle Suits at T6, with a 2+ armor save also remind me quite a bit of Terminators. Especially if they fix the keyword problem already discussed. They have 8 Wounds. Carnifexes and Screamer-Killers are less close this go round, but still a little close. Rubric Marines are closer to TEQ than MEQ and they only have two. Sekhetar Robots have 4. Chaos Spawn have four. Allarus Custodians have four. Vertus Praetors have 5. Cthonian Earthshakers have 6. Biovores have 5.
Now change the title to "Does GW even care about Harlequins?"
But seriously, its been a long road to rebuild the Eldar range, and with Craftworlds mostly refreshed, along with the reintroduction of Harlequins and Corsairs. It will very likely be the turn of Drukhari to get an overhaul in the next edition.
I'd be amazed if they aren't next since they strike me as the Xenos force that is in the greatest need of an update.
Eldar, Necrons and Tyranids are all very up-to-date across most of their range, yes each has still got a few things that would be nice to update, but the majority is updated.
Orks feel like the same (I'm less keyed into their rate of updates/additions)
Genestealer Cults and Votann are both new and pretty modern.
Tau might be next after Dark Eldar, at least Tau feel like they've still got potential for some updates.
Alongside that there's likely going to be a big update for the demon factions now that they are separated out. I'm fully expecting to see GW revise the core demon models and split them between Fantasy and 40K.
JNAProductions wrote: I said TEQ.
That’s terminator equivalent, so T5 W3 with a 2+/4++ these days.
Is this where I accuse you of lying because you misinterpreted what I wrote?
That's very aggressive and rude after I just explained and listed a whole host of other units that are Terminator Equivalent if not literally Terminators in and of themselves; I'm told this sort of post isn't allowed, but I have yet to see much evidence.
I haven't checked the latest codex but incubi with a 3+/5++ would be nice and maybe give them the ability to shoot from their helmets like they used to have. Then give them a form of webway ability like warp spiders except maybe allow them to move and jump into melee and jump out. Also give them more options besides the klaive as melee options. Also give them some fear options back where they scare the crap out of other units and need to make a leadership test on a certain amount to leave combat. That or make their webway ability and/or fear helmets allow the enemy to not overwatch when they charge.
Incubi have a lot of that already! They have the 3+/5++ (because they're sith aspect warriors). They *sorta* have the gun hats. Said gun hats are called Tormentors, and they're reflected by a special rule that forces battleshock tests in the fight phase. So the hat is there. The fear rule is there. The hat just isn't very gun-like at the moment.
Giving them weapon options would be a bit weird given that they're meant to basically be aspect warriors. I think I mentioned on an earlier page that this could potentially be an interesting way to call back to the days when they could take shredders and blasters and show them diverging ever further from Arhra's teachings, but it would also be a bit of a bummer to lose that parody they have with aspect warriors. They don't have their *own* webway assault tech (and it would be kind of weird to retcon them as being pseudo warp spiders at this point), but you can take an archon with webway tech. It's a fun tactic.
I can't remember about the latest raider option but they should absolutely have assault ramps or some sort of thing for fast assaults.
They do actually! The raider got several flavorful rules in the codex including an ability that is *essentially* assault ramps. It only works for wych cult units, but the kabal and coven rules are pretty snazzy in their own right.
Improve the fear options. Make them better and allow for more negative modifiers for enemy shooting (negative modifiers to ballistic skill, preventing overwatch or lowering their shooting ranges) or melee (strikes last or lower WS). The enemy should be disoriented, out-maneuvered and unaware. Also the lowered enemy ranges were normal vs raiders with certain upgrades in 5th.
I can get behind the idea of making drukhari especially good at tossing around stacking debuffs as a form of defense. Not sure if I'd tie it to "fear" specifically. See: any recent thread about morale and how best to handle it.
Make archons good again. Allow them to give out buffs if they're in a transport and when they're out of them. Give them the option to take bikes, scourge wings, or hellions or at least give some of those options to the succubus. They should be either melee, fear inducing or shooting power-houses. Make them like the old Big meks where they shoot a gun at you that throws you into the warp if it rolls high enough except just make it fairly strong in general. Make the old huskblade archons that can boost their power until they can finally face monsters in combat and win.
Yes please! Though to be fair, the soul trapping super-charged archon is a bit of a thing again as of the codex. But absolutely yes to being able to use their abilities on a boat, and yes to giving them mobility options. Although I guess the winged and mounted units all have very specific cultures to them these days that archons might not jive with. It doesn't make a *ton* of sense for an archon to be a member of a scourge cult, for instance. (Although we do have at least one or two examples of bird-obsessed archons.)
Make haemonculus be massively anti-psyker like they used to be. Give them some super gun (like a super hex rifle that has massive ap and instant death as well as can pick out characters) or anti-monster weapon in melee.
I don't know if haemonculi were ever "massively" anti-psyker, but bringing back a sufficiently impressive version of the crucible of malediction would be nice. As would bringing back their more esoteric weapons in general. I love the fleshcrafter aspect of haemonculi, but I feel like GW has been doing them a disservice by ignoring the Cthulhu portals, nightmare dolls, murder mirrors, etc. Generally, I want a fleshcrafting support haemonculus, a specialized poison haemonculus (and/or a lhamean character), and a weird esoteric weapon haemonculus.
Give us more vehicle options including the Dais of Destruction and maybe give more options to the ravager. We absolutely need one or two super heavies.
Add some sort of super monster like a talos except way bigger like a Knight.
I kind of feel like superheavies in general were a bad idea for the game, but a coven knight *would* be super cool. As a Malys fan and Poisoned Tongue player, I'm obligated to say that a Dais of Destruction would be "terrible" and "shouldn't happen" and "definitely not a super cool idea."
Bring back grotesques and give them more melee options like one for anti-vehicle and make flesh gauntlets anti monster and anti infantry.
I want their weapons to be more or less the same, but I want different builds for different body types. Have your hulk smash beefcakes, but also a version that's pumped full of drugs and bleeding acid, or a version that's made to be crazy fast, etc. Play around with the body horror options.
Give scourge a disintegrators option with 36" range and the jump-shoot-jump ability. Scourge also need 4+/5++ if they don't have it already.
Already have the 4+/5++ from their ghostplate armor, so good news there. I'm not sure they really need disintegrators? Generally, you want to shoot dissies at the same targets you'd shoot splinter cannons at. Unless you're shooting at a vehicle target and fishing for 5s or 6s to wound, at which point you'd probably rather have one of the anti-tank guns instead.
More deep strike across the board, better movement ranges, better ability to lower incoming damage, better ability to tank for covens and better ability to increase damage and fear.
Yeah. I miss feeling fast. And I miss speed-as-defense. It used to feel nice moving your whole army 18" in a turn and getting a cover save out of it, then switching into "attack mode" and pouncing on your prey the following turn.
Bring back Medusae and have them do negative modifiers against the enemy if any enemies get wounded by them to make archon assaulting with them easier.
Seconded, though I'd make them generally useful for all units. I'm not sure they really *need* to be an archon/kabal-only thing. Let them get that tasty battlefield "footage" for succubae and haemonculi too! I see these guys being a great points filler option that just gives a squad of your choosing a little more punch.
Make lhamean poison super strong and go through a lot of ap and hurt monsters and infantry really well.
I either want a character Lhamean that lets you play around with poison weapon profiles, or I want a whole squad of them with weird poison-centric wargear. I kind of like them not having good AP though. In addition to being a balancing factor, it helps to convey the idea that their weapons aren't crackling with power fields or whatever but that when they *do* strike home, they absolutely ravage biological systems with their toxins.
Make poisoned attacks do more damage and have more ap in general.
Why would poison weapons be innately good at bypassing armor? Is the idea that they're so dangerous when they graze you that the armor's weak points are that much more of a liability?
Add a grenade type like phantasm except launched by haemonculus covens that makes enemies fight and hurt each other and do damage against themselves and/or prevent overwatch or count as if they're in melee.
Used to love phantasm launchers and torment launchers. Would absolutely be onboard with these making some sort of thematic return. Grenades up to 18" but only vs non-vehicle targets? Debuff dispensers? I'd hesitate to make them proper guns again purely because warrior squads already have up to 5 different profiles to resolve, but there are so many fun things GWcould do with these.
More and better snipers for covens. There's no way a faction built around killing enemy leaders and causing mass panic in their opponents shouldn't like snipers or some form of enemy character killing.
Agreed. Or if not covens specifically, snipers for someone. Tbf, I do understand the logic that anyone traveling around outside of their spire in Commorragh is moving fast enough and in three dimensions that sniping with something like a hex rifle might be tricky. But we do know that canonically archons get nervous about dark lances trying to pick them out of the skies while they travel.
I can also totally imagine assassin types who get paid by covens in body mods and weird wargear in exchange for their services. Some dude with chameleonic skin latched onto the side of a spire by his talon feet while he lines up a shot with a hex rifle...
Some of these options would be fun but dark eldar have become increasing boring to play as. Last i played necrons could teleport out of combat and shoot into wych squads nets or no and a lot of things that could shoot into combat could kill wyches as well. Such a disappointment. That and any game with a lack of cover was just painful to play as dark eldar.
Yeah. As I said in a previous post, I think 10th edition's overall playstyle is a little hostile to drukhari. The tables are smaller, so GW can only let us be so fast. The primary objective (and usually several of the secondary objectives) in a given game is almost always about standing around on magic circles and holding ground. Mechanics like Jink and Flat-Out have been gone for a while, and GW seems reluctant to let people reliably take enemy units hostage in melee. So the whole playstyle of zooming around and temporarily disabling key units while your expensive units kill things for good is kind of a no-go.
I still enjoy my drukhari, but most of the things I liked about them (game-wise) when I first started collecting them in 5th edition are gone.
Tau might be next after Dark Eldar, at least Tau feel like they've still got potential for some updates.
Do Tau need a lot of updates? Their fire warriors got updated when breachers were introduced not too terribly long ago. I feel like most of their HQs have been released/updated since then too. The kroot stuff all got refreshed/added recently. The big suits are all from 6th or 7th edition onward and don't strike me as showing their age. What does that leave to update? The tanks and pirahnas maybe?
JNAProductions wrote: You included Chaos Spawn as TEQ.
Broadening a term that much makes it basically useless.
It’s T5, and has a 4+/5++. It’s not that broad.
Terminators are, normally, T5 W3 2+/4++.
There is wargear that changes that (Storm Shields) and DG terminators have bonus toughness over normal astartes’ toughness.
A Spawn shares exactly one defensive value with Terminators-T5.
Please, if you could, give your definition of TEQ. Not examples-the actual definition you use.
JNAProductions wrote: You included Chaos Spawn as TEQ.
Broadening a term that much makes it basically useless.
It’s T5, and has a 4+/5++. It’s not that broad.
Terminators are, normally, T5 W3 2+/4++.
There is wargear that changes that (Storm Shields) and DG terminators have bonus toughness over normal astartes’ toughness.
A Spawn shares exactly one defensive value with Terminators-T5.
Please, if you could, give your definition of TEQ. Not examples-the actual definition you use.
You said TEQ not Tactical Terminator Squad. To me that means everybody with a T5 2+/4++ or close enough for napkin math. And Terminator Captains have 6. Assault Terminators with Storm Shields have 4. Bloodcrushers are fairly close to TEQ and have four wounds. Hellflayers at T6 wtih a 4++ are even closer to Terminator Identical to qualify as TEQ. Broadside Battle Suits at T6, with a 2+ armor save also remind me quite a bit of Terminators. Especially if they fix the keyword problem already discussed. They have 8 Wounds. Carnifexes and Screamer-Killers are less close this go round, but still a little close. Rubric Marines are closer to TEQ than MEQ and they only have two. Sekhetar Robots have 4. Chaos Spawn have four. Allarus Custodians have four. Vertus Praetors have 5. Cthonian Earthshakers have 6. Biovores have 5.
JNAProductions wrote: And Spawn aren’t 2+/4++ or even close to it.
Nor are Biovores, or Cthonian Earthshakers.
You didn’t follow your own definition.
Its a 4+/5++. That's close enough I can ballpark it. Its the second easiest one out of what you complained about.
Biovores are a T6, 3+ no invuln. That's still close enough I can ballpark it.
Cthonian Earthshakers are a 4+, no invlun. That's the easiest one of the three to ballpark.
That's the whole point of Equivalent. You take something common, you figure out the "recipe" for it's math. Then you apply it to other things that are similar to create an estimate by skipping a step or sliding a pip here or there.
If I know how much damage a power fist does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many powerfists I need to take down 10 Tactical Terminators. And I know how many Powerfists I need to take down 5 Allarus Custodians.
If I know how much damage a Thunder Hammer does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many Thunderhammers I need to take down 10 Tactical Terminators.
If I know how much damage a Powerfirst does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many power fists I need to take down a Cthonian Earthshaker.
If I know how much damage a powerfist does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many powerfists I need to kill Rubric Marines.
This could be the same problem you had when you thought Captain Titus did more damage than a GUO.
JNAProductions wrote: And Spawn aren’t 2+/4++ or even close to it.
Nor are Biovores, or Cthonian Earthshakers.
You didn’t follow your own definition.
Its a 4+/5++. That's close enough I can ballpark it. Its the second easiest one out of what you complained about.
Biovores are a T6, 3+ no invuln. That's still close enough I can ballpark it.
Cthonian Earthshakers are a 4+, no invlun. That's the easiest one of the three to ballpark.
That's the whole point of Equivalent. You take something common, you figure out the "recipe" for it's math. Then you apply it to other things that are similar to create an estimate by skipping a step or sliding a pip here or there.
If I know how much damage a power fist does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many powerfists I need to take down 10 Tactical Terminators. And I know how many Powerfists I need to take down 5 Allarus Custodians.
If I know how much damage a Thunder Hammer does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many Thunderhammers I need to take down 10 Tactical Terminators.
If I know how much damage a Powerfirst does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many power fists I need to take down a Cthonian Earthshaker.
If I know how much damage a powerfist does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many powerfists I need to kill Rubric Marines.
This could be the same problem you had when you thought Captain Titus did more damage than a GUO.
The 2+ saves is the most important part of TEQ though. Back in the day it was the only distinction between TEQ and MEQ. You can efficiently use completely different weapons into things with much worse armour and the maths is substantially different.
And as this argument shows, the wound profile makes the maths substantially different if you’ve got multi-damage weapons. TEQ is generally 3-4, depending on the exact unit.
Being Infantry is also fairly important they days, both offensively (being able to move through walls) and defensively (for things like anti-infantry). A carnifex is really not equivalent to a terminator in any useful sense.
Regarding Splinter weapons, I think it's fair to say that the 'wound certain types of unit on a 4+' mechanic has not aged well.
It was okay in 5th but as the game has (d)evolved, it has become increasingly shaky. The current rules create a lot of awkward interactions wherein sitting on a bike makes you immune to poison. Plus, the removal of any coherent structure with respect to army-building means that there's no guarantee an army will have any infantry.
I know people have suggested that units should have 'mechanical' and 'biological' subtypes. However, this would merely add to the already bloated mass of keywords on most units.
Instead, I would propose giving Splinter weapons comparable profiles to their Shuriken counterparts, but with -1 strength and Lethal Hits (number of shots can be adjusted as needed).
It would seem a reasonable way to represent poison, without having to worry about drastic swings in effectiveness between target types.
On Archons? It feels pretty indefensible they don’t have options similar to Eldar Autarchs.
I’m not suggesting anything as boring as “Autarch But With Spikes”. Combat Monsters can have different flavours. But let them ride a damned jetbike at least.
Or, as a compromise? Lieutenant Level Characters for the more Merc type elements. I’m not entirely sure what those might look like in terms of equipment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, how about some movement hampering mono-filament bombs for Hellions.
Here I’m thinking of how once upon a time, Eldar Doomweavers, as well as slicing up infantry but fine, left the strike area hazardous to traverse.
Hellions fly over, dropping their “nets”. Enemy then has the choice to move in its next turn and risk some number of Mortal Wounds, or remain stationary, allowing the remaining threads to sink into the ground.
Even if it’s a Once Per Game? It gives Hellions some extra uses.
JNAProductions wrote: And Spawn aren’t 2+/4++ or even close to it.
Nor are Biovores, or Cthonian Earthshakers.
You didn’t follow your own definition.
Its a 4+/5++. That's close enough I can ballpark it. Its the second easiest one out of what you complained about.
Biovores are a T6, 3+ no invuln. That's still close enough I can ballpark it.
Cthonian Earthshakers are a 4+, no invlun. That's the easiest one of the three to ballpark.
That's the whole point of Equivalent. You take something common, you figure out the "recipe" for it's math. Then you apply it to other things that are similar to create an estimate by skipping a step or sliding a pip here or there.
If I know how much damage a power fist does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many powerfists I need to take down 10 Tactical Terminators. And I know how many Powerfists I need to take down 5 Allarus Custodians.
If I know how much damage a Thunder Hammer does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many Thunderhammers I need to take down 10 Tactical Terminators.
If I know how much damage a Powerfirst does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many power fists I need to take down a Cthonian Earthshaker.
If I know how much damage a powerfist does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many powerfists I need to kill Rubric Marines.
This could be the same problem you had when you thought Captain Titus did more damage than a GUO.
The 2+ saves is the most important part of TEQ though. Back in the day it was the only distinction between TEQ and MEQ. You can efficiently use completely different weapons into things with much worse armour and the maths is substantially different.
And as this argument shows, the wound profile makes the maths substantially different if you’ve got multi-damage weapons. TEQ is generally 3-4, depending on the exact unit.
Being Infantry is also fairly important they days, both offensively (being able to move through walls) and defensively (for things like anti-infantry). A carnifex is really not equivalent to a terminator in any useful sense.
TEQ are rarely saving on 2+ but that is one of the numbers to watch and juggle. It appears I will need to continue the explanation - When comparing to the Spawn, their 4+ armor save becomes the same as the 4++ invuln math if you have an AP0 weapon. It become just a pip worse if you have to drop to the Spawn's 5++ invuln. You know the 4++ invuln is X. So the 5++ invuln becomes X (which was half saved) *2 (to get back to the full wounds) Divide 3 (to get to the one third save) For easy math, lets say X is 3. After the 4++ save, you do 3 average damage. Before the save you did 6 average damage. After a 5++ save you do 4 average damage. You can do the same thing with the Cthonian Earthshakers with their 4+ No Invuln. You just start with the 4++ line of the TEQ math and adjust. The Allarus Custodians and Vertus Praetors you just have to do a SvT check and the math should remain the same as unless your S jumps or falls a category. Biovores? That's an even faster SVT check, and your 2+ math moved a pip for 3+
No it doesn't make the math any different. Its the same math. X weapon always does Y average damage you then compare against Z total wounds.
Being Infranty does exactly nothing to the math. Being able to walk through a wall or not doesn't mean anything when it comes to how much of a hole any given weapon will make.
Most people can very easily do 1/2 and 1/3 or 2/3 of a final number in their head. Far fewer can do 50% of 83% of 6. Its 2 and a half. 5/6 of 6 is 5, half of five is 2.5 The point of doing the X -Equivalent math is to already have those numbers done ahead of time to improve your chances of estimating on the units that are mathemtatically similar but not literally exactly equivalent.
Given that this is apparently a tougher concept and they just brought back the old world with scatter dice, Horus Heresy also has scatter dice (Do they also have guess ranges or do they let you measure?) Does anyone want the run down on how to make your Guess Ranges more accurage by remembering the size of the board the size and locations of deployment zones, and hypotenuse formulas for basic triangle shapes?
These things are timesavers, hacks, tools, shortcuts, whatever you want to call them, but they only work if you know how they work so you can use them correctly.
JNAProductions wrote: And Spawn aren’t 2+/4++ or even close to it.
Nor are Biovores, or Cthonian Earthshakers.
You didn’t follow your own definition.
Its a 4+/5++. That's close enough I can ballpark it. Its the second easiest one out of what you complained about.
Biovores are a T6, 3+ no invuln. That's still close enough I can ballpark it.
Cthonian Earthshakers are a 4+, no invlun. That's the easiest one of the three to ballpark.
That's the whole point of Equivalent. You take something common, you figure out the "recipe" for it's math. Then you apply it to other things that are similar to create an estimate by skipping a step or sliding a pip here or there.
If I know how much damage a power fist does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many powerfists I need to take down 10 Tactical Terminators. And I know how many Powerfists I need to take down 5 Allarus Custodians.
If I know how much damage a Thunder Hammer does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many Thunderhammers I need to take down 10 Tactical Terminators.
If I know how much damage a Powerfirst does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many power fists I need to take down a Cthonian Earthshaker.
If I know how much damage a powerfist does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many powerfists I need to kill Rubric Marines.
This could be the same problem you had when you thought Captain Titus did more damage than a GUO.
The 2+ saves is the most important part of TEQ though. Back in the day it was the only distinction between TEQ and MEQ. You can efficiently use completely different weapons into things with much worse armour and the maths is substantially different.
And as this argument shows, the wound profile makes the maths substantially different if you’ve got multi-damage weapons. TEQ is generally 3-4, depending on the exact unit.
Being Infantry is also fairly important they days, both offensively (being able to move through walls) and defensively (for things like anti-infantry). A carnifex is really not equivalent to a terminator in any useful sense.
TEQ are rarely saving on 2+ but that is one of the numbers to watch and juggle. It appears I will need to continue the explanation - When comparing to the Spawn, their 4+ armor save becomes the same as the 4++ invuln math if you have an AP0 weapon. It become just a pip worse if you have to drop to the Spawn's 5++ invuln. You know the 4++ invuln is X. So the 5++ invuln becomes X (which was half saved) *2 (to get back to the full wounds) Divide 3 (to get to the one third save) For easy math, lets say X is 3. After the 4++ save, you do 3 average damage. Before the save you did 6 average damage. After a 5++ save you do 4 average damage. You can do the same thing with the Cthonian Earthshakers with their 4+ No Invuln. You just start with the 4++ line of the TEQ math and adjust. The Allarus Custodians and Vertus Praetors you just have to do a SvT check and the math should remain the same as unless your S jumps or falls a category. Biovores? That's an even faster SVT check, and your 2+ math moved a pip for 3+
No it doesn't make the math any different. Its the same math. X weapon always does Y average damage you then compare against Z total wounds.
Being Infranty does exactly nothing to the math. Being able to walk through a wall or not doesn't mean anything when it comes to how much of a hole any given weapon will make.
Most people can very easily do 1/2 and 1/3 or 2/3 of a final number in their head. Far fewer can do 50% of 83% of 6. Its 2 and a half. 5/6 of 6 is 5, half of five is 2.5 The point of doing the X -Equivalent math is to already have those numbers done ahead of time to improve your chances of estimating on the units that are mathemtatically similar but not literally exactly equivalent.
Given that this is apparently a tougher concept and they just brought back the old world with scatter dice, Horus Heresy also has scatter dice (Do they also have guess ranges or do they let you measure?) Does anyone want the run down on how to make your Guess Ranges more accurage by remembering the size of the board the size and locations of deployment zones, and hypotenuse formulas for basic triangle shapes?
These things are timesavers, hacks, tools, shortcuts, whatever you want to call them, but they only work if you know how they work so you can use them correctly.
"All units are terminator equivalents if I magic numbers and move goal posts."
A TEQ unit is defined as such due to having a terminator stat line or incredibly close to, as a mechanism to indicate the preferred weapon type to use against them and the role they fill.
In the context of a chaos spawn, no. Because you don't need to sink ap-2/3 weapons to get them to a 4++. This is a fundamental difference in efficiency into a target. Further to this, in the context of splinter weapons, a spawn isn't even infantry.
I completely second everything Dudeface said, but I’d like to highlight the below:
No it doesn't make the math any different. It’s the same math. X weapon always does Y average damage you then compare against Z total wounds.
This is wrong, and it’s wrongness is how this line of discussion started.
Take a Dark Lance with D6+2 damage. Into something with >8 wounds it averages 5.5 wounds as you get the whole roll. Into 3 wound models it will consistently do 3. Into 5 wound models it averages only 4.5*.
This makes the expected values very different when you’re calculating across multiple shots, even with the same T and Sv profile!
*not accounting for wounded models which will reduce it further.
Another new unit postulation. Take a Venom. Crossbreed with with the Eldar Support Weapon Platform.
Maybe it mounts a shield generator, dishing out a bubble of 5++ or 4++. Maybe it sports a chunky weapon of some kind. Perhaps it has options between Direct Damage weapons, and weapons which help out your other units in someway. Imagine some kind of radiation phage weapon which lowers the target’s toughness, or a Mono-filament caster that includes chunkier threads to entangle enemy units, slowing them down.
By all means let it be nippy and fragile. Hopefully its utility to you and irritation to the enemy is enough they’re forced to decide between dealing with it quickly, or attacking the main body of your army.
Orkeosaurus wrote: 2+/4++ and 4+/5++ are completely different and chaos spawn are not TEQs by any stretch of the definition. That claim is ludicrous.
Also, most Spawn don't have an Invuln at all. Only TSons Spawn do.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Another new unit postulation. Take a Venom. Crossbreed with with the Eldar Support Weapon Platform.
Maybe it mounts a shield generator, dishing out a bubble of 5++ or 4++. Maybe it sports a chunky weapon of some kind. Perhaps it has options between Direct Damage weapons, and weapons which help out your other units in someway. Imagine some kind of radiation phage weapon which lowers the target’s toughness, or a Mono-filament caster that includes chunkier threads to entangle enemy units, slowing them down.
By all means let it be nippy and fragile. Hopefully its utility to you and irritation to the enemy is enough they’re forced to decide between dealing with it quickly, or attacking the main body of your army.
I think 5++ would be reasonable. 4++ feels a little much.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Another new unit postulation. Take a Venom. Crossbreed with with the Eldar Support Weapon Platform.
Maybe it mounts a shield generator, dishing out a bubble of 5++ or 4++. Maybe it sports a chunky weapon of some kind. Perhaps it has options between Direct Damage weapons, and weapons which help out your other units in someway. Imagine some kind of radiation phage weapon which lowers the target’s toughness, or a Mono-filament caster that includes chunkier threads to entangle enemy units, slowing them down.
By all means let it be nippy and fragile. Hopefully its utility to you and irritation to the enemy is enough they’re forced to decide between dealing with it quickly, or attacking the main body of your army.
That’s not far off what the new Corsair Vyper variant does - which DE can indeed take, just without army or detachment rules.
"All units are terminator equivalents if I magic numbers and move goal posts."
A TEQ unit is defined as such due to having a terminator stat line or incredibly close to, as a mechanism to indicate the preferred weapon type to use against them and the role they fill.
In the context of a chaos spawn, no. Because you don't need to sink ap-2/3 weapons to get them to a 4++. This is a fundamental difference in efficiency into a target. Further to this, in the context of splinter weapons, a spawn isn't even infantry.
So you make up what I said then repeat what I said? Do you think there's some significant mathematical difference between the results of using an AP-2 weapon into Terminators and an AP0 weapon into Spawn? You realize 50% is always 50% whether its an invuln or an armor save?
"All units are terminator equivalents if I magic numbers and move goal posts."
A TEQ unit is defined as such due to having a terminator stat line or incredibly close to, as a mechanism to indicate the preferred weapon type to use against them and the role they fill.
In the context of a chaos spawn, no. Because you don't need to sink ap-2/3 weapons to get them to a 4++. This is a fundamental difference in efficiency into a target. Further to this, in the context of splinter weapons, a spawn isn't even infantry.
So you make up what I said then repeat what I said? Do you think there's some significant mathematical difference between the results of using an AP-2 weapon into Terminators and an AP0 weapon into Spawn? You realize 50% is always 50% whether its an invuln or an armor save?
Do you realise there is a significant mathematical difference between firing an ap-2 weapon at a terminator and a spawn?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Another new unit postulation. Take a Venom. Crossbreed with with the Eldar Support Weapon Platform.
Maybe it mounts a shield generator, dishing out a bubble of 5++ or 4++. Maybe it sports a chunky weapon of some kind. Perhaps it has options between Direct Damage weapons, and weapons which help out your other units in someway. Imagine some kind of radiation phage weapon which lowers the target’s toughness, or a Mono-filament caster that includes chunkier threads to entangle enemy units, slowing them down.
By all means let it be nippy and fragile. Hopefully its utility to you and irritation to the enemy is enough they’re forced to decide between dealing with it quickly, or attacking the main body of your army.
That’s not far off what the new Corsair Vyper variant does - which DE can indeed take, just without army or detachment rules.
I’m definitely envisaging something with a bit more oomph. Like light artillery rather than just a Heavy Weapon or two. It’s something no other Eldar have on a speedy carrier. For a Weaver weapon, show it in a different application etc.
"All units are terminator equivalents if I magic numbers and move goal posts."
A TEQ unit is defined as such due to having a terminator stat line or incredibly close to, as a mechanism to indicate the preferred weapon type to use against them and the role they fill.
In the context of a chaos spawn, no. Because you don't need to sink ap-2/3 weapons to get them to a 4++. This is a fundamental difference in efficiency into a target. Further to this, in the context of splinter weapons, a spawn isn't even infantry.
So you make up what I said then repeat what I said? Do you think there's some significant mathematical difference between the results of using an AP-2 weapon into Terminators and an AP0 weapon into Spawn? You realize 50% is always 50% whether its an invuln or an armor save?
Do you realise there is a significant mathematical difference between firing an ap-2 weapon at a terminator and a spawn?
I realize there isn't. Spawns save on a 4+. AP-2 into TEQ puts them on the 4+/4++ result. Firing into spawns means you start with the 4+/4++ result, and modify. The only change is to the last step. The hit% doesn't change. The wound% doesn't change. All that changes is the save percent. From a number you already have. So you just tack on another operation. The GEQ/MEQ/TEQ things are speed hacks. They're times tables. What's faster - doing all the math all over again - even though 2 of 3 operations will be exactly the same - or just backing out/adding in a last operation for the minor difference?
