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 Wyldhunt wrote:

Dark Muses are specifcally not gods. They seem to essentially just be like, folk heroes/paragons of certain arts and virtues. But this gets a little messy in that Shaimesh is the name of both a dark muse and the brother of the world serpent (the mythical snake that Saim-Hann's symbol references). So it's unclear whether these are two different guys or if dark muses can potentially be supernatural entities so long as they aren't "gods" per se.

It's sort of like saying you revere impressive mortals rather than gods, but then one of the creatures you revere is like, Cerberus. Technically not a "god" but similar enough in enough ways to make things confusing.

Yeah. I was thinking yesterday evening that you could almost turn these into Dark Eldar Phoenix Lords if you really wanted to.
They aren't "gods" but they could still be entities. You take on the... aspect of Lhilitu, Hekatii, Shaimesh etc (are you then a cosmic dragon? I'll let GW's modelling team decide) - either by donning certain equipment, or just webway trickery.

This potentially uplifts them too much in the lore though and feels a bit of a cheap copy. But its a route you could go down if you wanted to expand on a strand of DE lore.
Given more than 10 minutes thought you could potentially come up with something cooler.

I was glancing through the 10th edition book for other ideas. The Last Hatred mentions them sometimes using undead Aeldari (paraphraising). Perhaps a bit niche - but that could be a unit.

 vipoid wrote:

BanjoJohn wrote:
I'm generally of the opinion that the less attention GW gives to an army, the less likely they are to mess it up, if you don't like dark eldar, then you're out of luck, but if you do like them, then you're probably happy with their lack of attention, that's at least my opinion.

That might be true with respect to when GW decides to update existing models.

I don't think it applies when they take the Dark Eldar codex, rip out a third of the pages, and then release the result as the new edition's codex.

Yeah, removing units and character is bad sport on their part, probably because they don't want rules for models they want to stop making, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't keep supporting the people who already have those models.

I'm currently working on collecting a full set of asdrubael vect to fix the supply issue tho.

BanjoJohn wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

BanjoJohn wrote:
I'm generally of the opinion that the less attention GW gives to an army, the less likely they are to mess it up, if you don't like dark eldar, then you're out of luck, but if you do like them, then you're probably happy with their lack of attention, that's at least my opinion.

That might be true with respect to when GW decides to update existing models.

I don't think it applies when they take the Dark Eldar codex, rip out a third of the pages, and then release the result as the new edition's codex.

Yeah, removing units and character is bad sport on their part, probably because they don't want rules for models they want to stop making, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't keep supporting the people who already have those models.

You mean like this? https://assets.warhammer-community.com/eng_22-10_wh40k_faction-pack_drukhari-6uxdycfi7j-maudf7cqmp.pdf

ccs wrote:

BanjoJohn wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

BanjoJohn wrote:
I'm generally of the opinion that the less attention GW gives to an army, the less likely they are to mess it up, if you don't like dark eldar, then you're out of luck, but if you do like them, then you're probably happy with their lack of attention, that's at least my opinion.

That might be true with respect to when GW decides to update existing models.

I don't think it applies when they take the Dark Eldar codex, rip out a third of the pages, and then release the result as the new edition's codex.

Yeah, removing units and character is bad sport on their part, probably because they don't want rules for models they want to stop making, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't keep supporting the people who already have those models.

You mean like this? https://assets.warhammer-community.com/eng_22-10_wh40k_faction-pack_drukhari-6uxdycfi7j
-maudf7cqmp.pdf

I'm going to scan the parts of the mini for asdrubael vect so that people can 3d print it, even though its out of print.

ccs wrote:

BanjoJohn wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

BanjoJohn wrote:
I'm generally of the opinion that the less attention GW gives to an army, the less likely they are to mess it up, if you don't like dark eldar, then you're out of luck, but if you do like them, then you're probably happy with their lack of attention, that's at least my opinion.

That might be true with respect to when GW decides to update existing models.

I don't think it applies when they take the Dark Eldar codex, rip out a third of the pages, and then release the result as the new edition's codex.

Yeah, removing units and character is bad sport on their part, probably because they don't want rules for models they want to stop making, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't keep supporting the people who already have those models.

You mean like this? https://assets.warhammer-community.com/eng_22-10_wh40k_faction-pack_drukhari-6uxdycfi7j-maudf7cqmp.pdf

I do think that while the model designers seem to hate designing DE (so we get barely any new models), someone writing the rules does still seem to love them (is Phil Kelly still about?). Sure they lose units every edition after 5th, but that’s generally application of NMNR and this edition’s Finecast purge. 6th/7th aside, the codex rules are generally written with plenty of flavour (as much as the edition allows) and at least ok competitively.
And those most recent legends rules are excellent, up to codex standard rather than phoned in like they usually are. Makes me think the coven units at least were probably originally intended to be in before they decided on the Finecast purge.

Background and Narrative wise, I do like the whole Different Cults aspect of Dark Eldar. But I understand it’s never really worked out in-game.

And with the old FoC gone, I don’t think it serves any purpose in the modern game. Happy to be corrected there though. Again, not up on it.

But moving away? My favourite question for any neglected army. What new units, or unit archetypes do you think would suit them?

Would alien Mercs offer something new?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Background and Narrative wise, I do like the whole Different Cults aspect of Dark Eldar. But I understand it’s never really worked out in-game.

And with the old FoC gone, I don’t think it serves any purpose in the modern game. Happy to be corrected there though. Again, not up on it.

But moving away? My favourite question for any neglected army. What new units, or unit archetypes do you think would suit them?

Would alien Mercs offer something new?

I think alien mercs is more of a tau thing - but I could see them arming their slaves with basic weapons, and an obey-or-blow-up cortex bomb. (maybe if the whole unit is destroyed you get a Deadly Demise?) Use Clan Rats as the inspiration. But The Dark Eldar need a lot more archetypes. They need the warrior, the priest, and the wizard in their leaders. They need more units that don't lean so heavily on "poison" represented by Anti-Infantry but otherwise low S. If Dark Eldar take on a Deathwing army its something of a laugher. If they take on Tau its a laugher in the other direction even though the units will have pretty similar statlines. The difference is Terminators are Infantry, and Tau suits are vehicles. And running into Nids Big Bugs is another example.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Background and Narrative wise, I do like the whole Different Cults aspect of Dark Eldar. But I understand it’s never really worked out in-game.

And with the old FoC gone, I don’t think it serves any purpose in the modern game. Happy to be corrected there though. Again, not up on it.

I think the issue is that all it's really doing is compartmentalising an already anaemic codex.

After the latest round of mutilations:
Kabal have 1 Generic HQ, 1 Special Character, 2 Infantry units and 1 Vehicle.
Wyches have 1 Generic HQ, 1 Special Character, 1 Infantry unit and 2 Fast units.
Coven have 1 Generic HQ, 1 Infantry unit and 2 Monsters.
Then you have Mercenaries, who have 1 Special Character and 3 flavours of Infantry (only one of which relates to said special character).

The options are limited enough without cutting them into pieces so small they make Harlequins look bloated by comparison.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
My favourite question for any neglected army. What new units, or unit archetypes do you think would suit them?

So, before we even touch on new, we cover the returns...
- Vect on Dias of Destruction - with the Dias being more than a custom Ravager (I think someone mentioned Tantalus?), and the kit giving an option to build a standard Tantalus. Also give the option for a Vect on Foot in case you go for standard Tantalus.
- Grotesques, possibly as a dual-build kit with a melee unit and a ranged unit
- Multiple Beastmaster & pack kits, one for each of the beasts that went walkabout (I think that's 3?), with the Beastmaster having something for mobility if the unit is especilly quick.
- Court of the Archon - As someone mentioned elsewhere, the units for Huron & Titus cover this sort of thing. Maybe add an option or two to pad out?
- Urien Rakarth, in even more gribbly form
- Junior generic characters for each of the three main branches (which have had names for the ranks in the past, but I've forgotten them over time)
- From a rules perspective, the same access to Harlequins & Corsairs as their Craftworld equivalents

If I have missed anything that actually had a kit in the past, I apologise - I don't think we ever had "movement options for characters" as a release, so I'm avoiding them in the "returning" section. Also, if it doesn't have a datasheet for it now, add a datasheet for the Hand of the Archon that makes some use of the Kill Team bits.

As for new?
- Generic characters with movement options
- May as well do a model for Baron Siliscus (or however you spell it) if doing that
- A Wych unit designed to fight monsters, as I imagine that'd be a popular option in the pit fights, and the weaponry might not be the standard "Wych weapons"
- Actual kits for the Truebloods & the "elite" Wych unit (Bloodbrides?) - not sure if there was a Coven equivalent
- For a bit of an anvil unit, perhaps a "controlled" unit of Haemonculi'd Orks or something of that ilk - something chunky and obviously messed with that can hold an objective, has an in-unit Haemonculi pulling the strings, etc
- Some form of anti-psyker character - not full-on null, but someone who makes use of weird eldritch "tech" to both counter psychic abilities and remotely mess with their heads. I'm sure there are some old bits of DE wargear that might fight as equipment here
- A Kabal scout unit of some form - someone has to get the webway portals into place for the raiders to burst into realspace from, after all

I think exploring the mandrake shadow kingdoms more would also be cool.

That's a whole 4th cult they could expand out, with an almost chaos eldar vibe of mandrakes and shadow daemon monster troops, living shadow portals, and all sorts of craziness.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:But moving away? My favourite question for any neglected army. What new units, or unit archetypes do you think would suit them?

I personally think they should take a page from their Dark Elf selves and put a focus on the beast masters but bigger. Let them have a menagerie of alien monsters like the hydra or the kharibdyss that they deploy on there enemies during a raid when they really need something destroyed.

Just ragged on the original Mandrake rules in a completely unrelated thread.

Basically, and from memory, you positioned three models from the unit on the board. These represented possible locations for the squad. Each could move normally, and couldn’t be engaged (they’re not actually there). Then you eventually decided where they actually were by picking one of the markers, and deploying the squad in coherency with it.

The unit then promptly did nothing except give away cheap VPs when your opponent promptly slaughtered them. Turns out Elves in Gimp Suits with oversized cutlery do not a thorny opponent make.

Anyways. That got me to thinking. Dark Eldar are sometimes (often?) described as a Glass Cannon. But to the best of my of my knowledge, they’re currently All Glass, No Cannon. And all the fancy movement tricks in the world can’t help you if your mightiest attack is akin to tutting at someone.

So how do you put some powder in their keg? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the army requiring finesse and cunning to really work of course. So I’m not suggesting Unstoppable WomboCombo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of Mandrakes made me check the range again. And unless I’m missing something obvious? Everything currently in the army is available as a plastic kit these days.

That’s…kind of a win. Well. Perhaps more “not a loss, bit more than a draw”. Certainly it says to me nothing needs a resculpt. Because even the now ancient even if I don’t want to acknowledge the remorseless march of time Warriors and Wyches remain….really solid kits with lots of options. And indeed cross compatibility.

And we all hopefully know by now to be very, very careful what we wish for when it comes to GW Refreshses.

But even that warning aside? They don’t look their age. At all. Such was the quality of the 15 years or so ago range redo.

So even more, building on my previous posts? Now is the time for More Entirely New Units.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just ragged on the original Mandrake rules in a completely unrelated thread.

Basically, and from memory, you positioned three models from the unit on the board. These represented possible locations for the squad. Each could move normally, and couldn’t be engaged (they’re not actually there). Then you eventually decided where they actually were by picking one of the markers, and deploying the squad in coherency with it.

The unit then promptly did nothing except give away cheap VPs when your opponent promptly slaughtered them. Turns out Elves in Gimp Suits with oversized cutlery do not a thorny opponent make.

Anyways. That got me to thinking. Dark Eldar are sometimes (often?) described as a Glass Cannon. But to the best of my of my knowledge, they’re currently All Glass, No Cannon. And all the fancy movement tricks in the world can’t help you if your mightiest attack is akin to tutting at someone.

So how do you put some powder in their keg? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the army requiring finesse and cunning to really work of course. So I’m not suggesting Unstoppable WomboCombo.

How much cannon you have depends upon what units you select.
My T2 is often pretty punchy when my Aircraft enter play.

Valrak has been saying for a long time that his sources say that Gray Knights and Dark Eldar are both getting major refreshes in 11th.

I suspect they might be split into a few waves like the Craftworld Eldar but I hope there'll be good news for the DE players soon.

 The Phazer wrote:
Valrak has been saying for a long time that his sources say that Gray Knights and Dark Eldar are both getting major refreshes in 11th.

I suspect they might be split into a few waves like the Craftworld Eldar but I hope there'll be good news for the DE players soon.

So long as they don't screw over my existing GK/Drukhari forces....

ccs wrote:

 The Phazer wrote:
Valrak has been saying for a long time that his sources say that Gray Knights and Dark Eldar are both getting major refreshes in 11th.

I suspect they might be split into a few waves like the Craftworld Eldar but I hope there'll be good news for the DE players soon.

So long as they don't screw over my existing GK/Drukhari forces....

Hopefully the refresh kills the baby carriers for GK.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

ccs wrote:

 The Phazer wrote:
Valrak has been saying for a long time that his sources say that Gray Knights and Dark Eldar are both getting major refreshes in 11th.

I suspect they might be split into a few waves like the Craftworld Eldar but I hope there'll be good news for the DE players soon.

So long as they don't screw over my existing GK/Drukhari forces....

Hopefully the refresh kills the baby carriers for GK.

It just seems crazy to me that they didn't make the opportunity to have the dreadknight as a special dreadnought chassis where the greatest heroes have their sarcophagus lowered into the daemon brawling frame.

It is thoroughly unconvincing that they can go 1v1 a greater daemon using joysticks

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But to the best of my of my knowledge, they’re currently All Glass, No Cannon.

One of the reasons I suggested adding more "normally designed" weapons. They lean very heavily on Poison, which this edition turns into Anti-Infantry. Which is gangbusters against Terminators and Gravis. And strangely Wraith? Hilarious if they take Centurions. Not so great against Sentinels and Tau Suits. Or Speeders. Or Bikers. Their whole niche just fails in this edition. Sitting on a motorcycle makes you immune to poison. Wearing Terminator Armor does not. Wearing a smaller battle suit makes you immune. Being a magical construct that has no circulatory system, or internal organs does not.

They need a better representation of poison period. And they need more options vs Tiny(think Crisis Suits) to medium vehicles (Think Sentinels, Ravagers, War Walkers, and so on) Too many units go from Splinter Rifles to Dark Lances with nothing in between.

I’m not up on the weapon stats. But would it help if the Splinter Rifles moved to a nominal S (3 or 4 say), and rather than a fixed anti-infantry, got a re-roll against infantry?

Also, I don’t want this to sound like a cheap shot, but the issue feels more certain units not being infantry when perhaps they should?

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

ccs wrote:

 The Phazer wrote:
Valrak has been saying for a long time that his sources say that Gray Knights and Dark Eldar are both getting major refreshes in 11th.

I suspect they might be split into a few waves like the Craftworld Eldar but I hope there'll be good news for the DE players soon.

So long as they don't screw over my existing GK/Drukhari forces....

Hopefully the refresh kills the baby carriers for GK.

I doubt it given we JUST got an upgrade sprue for the kit.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not up on the weapon stats. But would it help if the Splinter Rifles moved to a nominal S (3 or 4 say), and rather than a fixed anti-infantry, got a re-roll against infantry?

Also, I don’t want this to sound like a cheap shot, but the issue feels more certain units not being infantry when perhaps they should?

Splinter Rifles are S3. They're Anti-Infantry Lasguns. Part of the issue is things are infantry that shouldn't be - or aren't and should be. Part of the problem is that Poison works the same no matter the armor. A guardsman wearing a cotton shirt is more susceptible to poison than a Marine in Tactical Dreadnought Armor. In an ideal world (pre-planning and supporting Poison, Haywire and others) every unit would have Organic and/or Mechanical keywords. Most of the issue is that too few Dark Eldar units have mid-strength stat'ed weapons or consider strength at all. Everywhere else I see power weapons are (racial S+1). Dark eldar are still S3. Eldar Storm Guardians are S4. Marines are S5. Even if everything was keyworded in a way to "properly" represent Poison Dark Eldar would still have holes for mounted, and the vehicles too "small" to require a Dark Lance. The problem becomes even more obvious and worse when you get to the melee weapons. They do not have power fists, chain fists, thunder hammers or anything like them. Only Wracks have a melee with Strength higher than 4. Because its 5. And its Limit 1. That's a problem against Crisis Suits. You pretty much have to shoot them in a war of attrition. Or if we fix the keywords, its a problem against Wraithblades. They just don't have enough units with enough tools for non-infantry in T5-T8ish ranges.

So my feeling of “all glass, no cannon” was a pretty good guess?

I get the background is about the poison being tailored to inflict a blissfully agonising death, as it’s the emotions of agony that feeds them*

But, and I promise I’m just a horror fan and not a nutter? There are other ways to inflict agony.

If we look to the wider setting, let’s consider the Ad-Mech Torsion cannon. A ranged weapon that uses contra-rotating Grav fields to rend and tear the victim apart.

Put that in the hands of Dark Eldar. Miniaturise the tech to be infantry portable. Presto! Enemy literally crippled. Place bets on which limb will shatter first! Really in need of a drink? Slow the rotation down. Take your time. Need a quick pick me up? Dial it up and turn your target’s extremities into horrific, fleshy springs!

And so on and so forth.

*though who knows, maybe a single viewing of Monsters Inc could give them a whole new approach!

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I’m not up on the weapon stats. But would it help if the Splinter Rifles moved to a nominal S (3 or 4 say), and rather than a fixed anti-infantry, got a re-roll against infantry?

Also, I don’t want this to sound like a cheap shot, but the issue feels more certain units not being infantry when perhaps they should?

Really IMO the ‘poison’ weapons ought to get anti mounted, even if a worse value (E.g. 4+ rather than 3+ vs infantry). At least the guns (maybe not Lelith). It’s bizarre that horses are immune to poison and, as said up thread, fairly odd that a bike gives you that immunity as well.

It’s appropriate I think that monsters need dark lances and the like to kill (though incubi do a good job in some detachments); and it’ll leave battlesuits as the only real hole.

Breton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m not up on the weapon stats. But would it help if the Splinter Rifles moved to a nominal S (3 or 4 say), and rather than a fixed anti-infantry, got a re-roll against infantry?

Also, I don’t want this to sound like a cheap shot, but the issue feels more certain units not being infantry when perhaps they should?

Splinter Rifles are S3. They're Anti-Infantry Lasguns. Part of the issue is things are infantry that shouldn't be - or aren't and should be. Part of the problem is that Poison works the same no matter the armor. A guardsman wearing a cotton shirt is more susceptible to poison than a Marine in Tactical Dreadnought Armor. In an ideal world (pre-planning and supporting Poison, Haywire and others) every unit would have Organic and/or Mechanical keywords. Most of the issue is that too few Dark Eldar units have mid-strength stat'ed weapons or consider strength at all. Everywhere else I see power weapons are (racial S+1). Dark eldar are still S3. Eldar Storm Guardians are S4. Marines are S5. Even if everything was keyworded in a way to "properly" represent Poison Dark Eldar would still have holes for mounted, and the vehicles too "small" to require a Dark Lance. The problem becomes even more obvious and worse when you get to the melee weapons. They do not have power fists, chain fists, thunder hammers or anything like them. Only Wracks have a melee with Strength higher than 4. Because its 5. And its Limit 1. That's a problem against Crisis Suits. You pretty much have to shoot them in a war of attrition. Or if we fix the keywords, its a problem against Wraithblades. They just don't have enough units with enough tools for non-infantry in T5-T8ish ranges.

Splinter rifles are S2 (I don’t think they’ve been S3 since the 5th Ed Codex came out), so they’re essentially on 6+ vs anything that isn’t infantry as it’s going to be at least T4. The codex really struggles into mass mounted.

There are a few higher S melee units. Incubi are S5 now (though their pain ability is only useful vs infantry), Archons can get to S5-6 with a soul trap depending on their weapon.
All the special characters can get there as well - Malys is S5, Drazhar is S5/6 (depending on mode) and Lelith can make her special weapon wyches S5 with pain.
As long as there’s not too many of the tricky units, these can make a good show of it in melee - especially in Skysplinter.

Lord Zarkov wrote:


Splinter rifles are S2 (I don’t think they’ve been S3 since the 5th Ed Codex came out), so they’re essentially on 6+ vs anything that isn’t infantry as it’s going to be at least T4. The codex really struggles into mass mounted.

Whoops, you're right, I didn't go straight down the chart and ended up over a column.

There are a few higher S melee units. Incubi are S5 now (though their pain ability is only useful vs infantry), Archons can get to S5-6 with a soul trap depending on their weapon.
All the special characters can get there as well - Malys is S5, Drazhar is S5/6 (depending on mode) and Lelith can make her special weapon wyches S5 with pain.
As long as there’s not too many of the tricky units, these can make a good show of it in melee - especially in Skysplinter.

That I don't know about, I was looking at the Battleline units not the "elites" and characters. Still S6 is not S8 and the Sentinels and such are T7.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
So my feeling of “all glass, no cannon” was a pretty good guess?

Depends of the unit and the target:
Dark Lances are pretty good and can be taken in pretty scary quantities.
Incubi are ridiculously lethal into medium and heavy infantry (unless they have strikes first) and in Skysplinter do good work vs pretty much everything.
Post Codex disintegrator ravagers are also decent in some detachments.

Everything else is very target dependent.
Post Codex Wyches do good damage into light-medium infantry but bounce off most else.
Haywire wrecks vehicles but nothing else
Splinters are great into low save infantry (especially high T low save like Orks and basic Votann), but bounce off high saves and are useless vs non-infantry.

Either way though you have to mass your firepower into a small number of targets each turn as you need the kills for more pain.

It does sound like Warriors need some kind of squad weapon option.

I think it would likely be a One or Other loadout, so no mixing and matching to cover lots of bases. But then with typically modest squad sizes as I understand it, the mix and match may be a risk unto itself.

They’ve long since had Haywire Blasters as a tech. So why not Haywire Rifles? Because your opponent fancy suit of thick personal armour might as well be a prison if someone turns it off. Just ask the Red Butchers of Heresy Era World Eaters.

No idea what the current Haywire Blaster rules are. But even S2 (Anti-Vehicle 4+ or 5+) could be a solution? And give Warriors some skin in the game as your backstop unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ideally modelificated as a pack-in expansion sprue.

Breton wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:


Splinter rifles are S2 (I don’t think they’ve been S3 since the 5th Ed Codex came out), so they’re essentially on 6+ vs anything that isn’t infantry as it’s going to be at least T4. The codex really struggles into mass mounted.

Whoops, you're right, I didn't go straight down the chart and ended up over a column.

There are a few higher S melee units. Incubi are S5 now (though their pain ability is only useful vs infantry), Archons can get to S5-6 with a soul trap depending on their weapon.
All the special characters can get there as well - Malys is S5, Drazhar is S5/6 (depending on mode) and Lelith can make her special weapon wyches S5 with pain.
As long as there’s not too many of the tricky units, these can make a good show of it in melee - especially in Skysplinter.

That I don't know about, I was looking at the Battleline units not the "elites" and characters. Still S6 is not S8 and the Sentinels and such are T7.

Yeah, Sentinels can be a problem, especially if there’s lots of them. Tough enough that Dark Lances aren’t on 2+ (and there’s probably more important targets for them) and the battleline stuff is having a bad time (Lelith’s wyches aside). Incubi will still mess them up though (and there aren’t that many better targets in guard), as will taloi at S8-9 (though they’re pretty slow and have to get there).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It does sound like Warriors need some kind of squad weapon option.

I think it would likely be a One or Other loadout, so no mixing and matching to cover lots of bases. But then with typically modest squad sizes as I understand it, the mix and match may be a risk unto itself.

They’ve long since had Haywire Blasters as a tech. So why not Haywire Rifles? Because your opponent fancy suit of thick personal armour might as well be a prison if someone turns it off. Just ask the Red Butchers of Heresy Era World Eaters.

No idea what the current Haywire Blaster rules are. But even S2 (Anti-Vehicle 4+ or 5+) could be a solution? And give Warriors some skin in the game as your backstop unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ideally modelificated as a pack-in expansion sprue.

Haywire blasters are S3, anti-vehicle 4+ Dev Wounds D3.

The bigger harlequin ones are S4, so a 1 shot S2 one would make sense for a massed infantry version. Both guns being S2 into the less good targets would also have some symmetry.

I kind of feel Kabalite Warriors are fine?

I guess if you are playing your friends all bikes army or someone with a fancy of Imperial Guard horsemen then they kind of suffer a bit, but how many were you bringing anyway? Into regular infantry its a BS3+ Wounding on 3s AP- gun - with assault 2 range 24. That's better than a bolter in most circumstances.

And you do get a dark lance, a blaster, a blast pistol, a shredder and a splinter cannon.

I find the idea that DE are dependent on poison a bit weird when its essentially just one unit. (Or I guess the Hand of the Archon, which is really just Kabalites+).

Wyches blend. Incubi blend. Hellions blend. Reavers are good for objectives. Scourge with Dark Lances are great.

Imo the poison should be more of an army rule rather than a weapon rule.

Like once per phase one of each of these 6 poisons can be used by one unit that affects their attacks thusly:

X
Y
Z


Then you can have tailored poisons to monsters vehicles, characters, units etc that are more than just X+ to wound.

It becomes like the craftworld battle focus that gives them a toolkit to apply mega sledgehammers where they need to

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It does sound like Warriors need some kind of squad weapon option.

I think it would likely be a One or Other loadout, so no mixing and matching to cover lots of bases. But then with typically modest squad sizes as I understand it, the mix and match may be a risk unto itself.

They’ve long since had Haywire Blasters as a tech. So why not Haywire Rifles? Because your opponent fancy suit of thick personal armour might as well be a prison if someone turns it off. Just ask the Red Butchers of Heresy Era World Eaters.

No idea what the current Haywire Blaster rules are. But even S2 (Anti-Vehicle 4+ or 5+) could be a solution? And give Warriors some skin in the game as your backstop unit.


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Ideally modelificated as a pack-in expansion sprue.

Blasters are still there, but no longer "Haywire" and ranged similar to Melta (6" pistol, 18" something) They can have four "upgrades" out of 10 models, only one of each, plus one pistol on the "sergeant". They're the ones in the "best" shape
They can have:

A blaster that looks roughly parallel but weaker to a single shot Multimelta without the Melta. Or a Meltagun with more range and less punch depending on which direction you want to go.
A splinter cannon that is to Splinter Rifles as Heavy Bolters are to Heavy Bolt Rifles. i.e. the same thing just more shots.
A Shredder (Longer range S6 but still AP0 flamer)
A Dark Lance (I assume everyone can draw the parallel to a lascannon)

Additionally the squad leader can have a Blast Pistol which will remind you of a slightly weaker melta/inferno pistol without the Melta rule.

Wyches get:
The Blast Pistol on the Sergeant.

Wracks get:
Up to two Sniper Rifles with longer ranged but 1 shot overcharged but not hazardous plasma-ish damage
And the S5 Power Weapon. But only on the Sergeant.

If you include the Dedicated Transports, the Raider is in pretty good shape. Imagine being able to choose Las Cannon or Grav Cannon. Not a bad range. But the Venom is barely better than a Rhino.


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 Hellebore wrote:
Imo the poison should be more of an army rule rather than a weapon rule.

Like once per phase one of each of these 6 poisons can be used by one unit that affects their attacks thusly:

X
Y
Z


Then you can have tailored poisons to monsters vehicles, characters, units etc that are more than just X+ to wound.

It becomes like the craftworld battle focus that gives them a toolkit to apply mega sledgehammers where they need to

I would have inverted the armor save for a sliding scale. If you're attacking something with a 2+ armor save, Poison crit wounds on a 6+ If you're Attacking something with a 6+ armor save, you crit wound on a 2+, and then I'd still give their weaponry a normal S so you can normal wound something with a 2+ armor save, or Crit Wound on a 6+. Depending on how that works out on the math, it could/should also then invoke Devastating Wounds.