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Now change the title to "Does GW even care about Harlequins?"

But seriously, its been a long road to rebuild the Eldar range, and with Craftworlds mostly refreshed, along with the reintroduction of Harlequins and Corsairs. It will very likely be the turn of Drukhari to get an overhaul in the next edition.

I'd be amazed if they aren't next since they strike me as the Xenos force that is in the greatest need of an update.

Eldar, Necrons and Tyranids are all very up-to-date across most of their range, yes each has still got a few things that would be nice to update, but the majority is updated.

Orks feel like the same (I'm less keyed into their rate of updates/additions)

Genestealer Cults and Votann are both new and pretty modern.

Tau might be next after Dark Eldar, at least Tau feel like they've still got potential for some updates.



Alongside that there's likely going to be a big update for the demon factions now that they are separated out. I'm fully expecting to see GW revise the core demon models and split them between Fantasy and 40K.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I said TEQ.
That’s terminator equivalent, so T5 W3 with a 2+/4++ these days.

Is this where I accuse you of lying because you misinterpreted what I wrote?

That's very aggressive and rude after I just explained and listed a whole host of other units that are Terminator Equivalent if not literally Terminators in and of themselves; I'm told this sort of post isn't allowed, but I have yet to see much evidence.

You included Chaos Spawn as TEQ.
Broadening a term that much makes it basically useless.

 flamingkillamajig wrote:

I haven't checked the latest codex but incubi with a 3+/5++ would be nice and maybe give them the ability to shoot from their helmets like they used to have. Then give them a form of webway ability like warp spiders except maybe allow them to move and jump into melee and jump out. Also give them more options besides the klaive as melee options. Also give them some fear options back where they scare the crap out of other units and need to make a leadership test on a certain amount to leave combat. That or make their webway ability and/or fear helmets allow the enemy to not overwatch when they charge.

Incubi have a lot of that already! They have the 3+/5++ (because they're sith aspect warriors). They *sorta* have the gun hats. Said gun hats are called Tormentors, and they're reflected by a special rule that forces battleshock tests in the fight phase. So the hat is there. The fear rule is there. The hat just isn't very gun-like at the moment.

Giving them weapon options would be a bit weird given that they're meant to basically be aspect warriors. I think I mentioned on an earlier page that this could potentially be an interesting way to call back to the days when they could take shredders and blasters and show them diverging ever further from Arhra's teachings, but it would also be a bit of a bummer to lose that parody they have with aspect warriors. They don't have their *own* webway assault tech (and it would be kind of weird to retcon them as being pseudo warp spiders at this point), but you can take an archon with webway tech. It's a fun tactic.

I can't remember about the latest raider option but they should absolutely have assault ramps or some sort of thing for fast assaults.

They do actually! The raider got several flavorful rules in the codex including an ability that is *essentially* assault ramps. It only works for wych cult units, but the kabal and coven rules are pretty snazzy in their own right.

Improve the fear options. Make them better and allow for more negative modifiers for enemy shooting (negative modifiers to ballistic skill, preventing overwatch or lowering their shooting ranges) or melee (strikes last or lower WS). The enemy should be disoriented, out-maneuvered and unaware. Also the lowered enemy ranges were normal vs raiders with certain upgrades in 5th.

I can get behind the idea of making drukhari especially good at tossing around stacking debuffs as a form of defense. Not sure if I'd tie it to "fear" specifically. See: any recent thread about morale and how best to handle it.

Make archons good again. Allow them to give out buffs if they're in a transport and when they're out of them. Give them the option to take bikes, scourge wings, or hellions or at least give some of those options to the succubus. They should be either melee, fear inducing or shooting power-houses. Make them like the old Big meks where they shoot a gun at you that throws you into the warp if it rolls high enough except just make it fairly strong in general. Make the old huskblade archons that can boost their power until they can finally face monsters in combat and win.

Yes please! Though to be fair, the soul trapping super-charged archon is a bit of a thing again as of the codex. But absolutely yes to being able to use their abilities on a boat, and yes to giving them mobility options. Although I guess the winged and mounted units all have very specific cultures to them these days that archons might not jive with. It doesn't make a *ton* of sense for an archon to be a member of a scourge cult, for instance. (Although we do have at least one or two examples of bird-obsessed archons.)

Make haemonculus be massively anti-psyker like they used to be. Give them some super gun (like a super hex rifle that has massive ap and instant death as well as can pick out characters) or anti-monster weapon in melee.

I don't know if haemonculi were ever "massively" anti-psyker, but bringing back a sufficiently impressive version of the crucible of malediction would be nice. As would bringing back their more esoteric weapons in general. I love the fleshcrafter aspect of haemonculi, but I feel like GW has been doing them a disservice by ignoring the Cthulhu portals, nightmare dolls, murder mirrors, etc. Generally, I want a fleshcrafting support haemonculus, a specialized poison haemonculus (and/or a lhamean character), and a weird esoteric weapon haemonculus.

Give us more vehicle options including the Dais of Destruction and maybe give more options to the ravager. We absolutely need one or two super heavies.

Add some sort of super monster like a talos except way bigger like a Knight.

I kind of feel like superheavies in general were a bad idea for the game, but a coven knight *would* be super cool. As a Malys fan and Poisoned Tongue player, I'm obligated to say that a Dais of Destruction would be "terrible" and "shouldn't happen" and "definitely not a super cool idea."

Bring back grotesques and give them more melee options like one for anti-vehicle and make flesh gauntlets anti monster and anti infantry.

I want their weapons to be more or less the same, but I want different builds for different body types. Have your hulk smash beefcakes, but also a version that's pumped full of drugs and bleeding acid, or a version that's made to be crazy fast, etc. Play around with the body horror options.

Give scourge a disintegrators option with 36" range and the jump-shoot-jump ability. Scourge also need 4+/5++ if they don't have it already.

Already have the 4+/5++ from their ghostplate armor, so good news there. I'm not sure they really need disintegrators? Generally, you want to shoot dissies at the same targets you'd shoot splinter cannons at. Unless you're shooting at a vehicle target and fishing for 5s or 6s to wound, at which point you'd probably rather have one of the anti-tank guns instead.

More deep strike across the board, better movement ranges, better ability to lower incoming damage, better ability to tank for covens and better ability to increase damage and fear.

Yeah. I miss feeling fast. And I miss speed-as-defense. It used to feel nice moving your whole army 18" in a turn and getting a cover save out of it, then switching into "attack mode" and pouncing on your prey the following turn.

Bring back Medusae and have them do negative modifiers against the enemy if any enemies get wounded by them to make archon assaulting with them easier.

Seconded, though I'd make them generally useful for all units. I'm not sure they really *need* to be an archon/kabal-only thing. Let them get that tasty battlefield "footage" for succubae and haemonculi too! I see these guys being a great points filler option that just gives a squad of your choosing a little more punch.

Make lhamean poison super strong and go through a lot of ap and hurt monsters and infantry really well.

I either want a character Lhamean that lets you play around with poison weapon profiles, or I want a whole squad of them with weird poison-centric wargear. I kind of like them not having good AP though. In addition to being a balancing factor, it helps to convey the idea that their weapons aren't crackling with power fields or whatever but that when they *do* strike home, they absolutely ravage biological systems with their toxins.

Make poisoned attacks do more damage and have more ap in general.

Why would poison weapons be innately good at bypassing armor? Is the idea that they're so dangerous when they graze you that the armor's weak points are that much more of a liability?

Add a grenade type like phantasm except launched by haemonculus covens that makes enemies fight and hurt each other and do damage against themselves and/or prevent overwatch or count as if they're in melee.

Used to love phantasm launchers and torment launchers. Would absolutely be onboard with these making some sort of thematic return. Grenades up to 18" but only vs non-vehicle targets? Debuff dispensers? I'd hesitate to make them proper guns again purely because warrior squads already have up to 5 different profiles to resolve, but there are so many fun things GW could do with these.

More and better snipers for covens. There's no way a faction built around killing enemy leaders and causing mass panic in their opponents shouldn't like snipers or some form of enemy character killing.

Agreed. Or if not covens specifically, snipers for someone. Tbf, I do understand the logic that anyone traveling around outside of their spire in Commorragh is moving fast enough and in three dimensions that sniping with something like a hex rifle might be tricky. But we do know that canonically archons get nervous about dark lances trying to pick them out of the skies while they travel.

I can also totally imagine assassin types who get paid by covens in body mods and weird wargear in exchange for their services. Some dude with chameleonic skin latched onto the side of a spire by his talon feet while he lines up a shot with a hex rifle...

Some of these options would be fun but dark eldar have become increasing boring to play as. Last i played necrons could teleport out of combat and shoot into wych squads nets or no and a lot of things that could shoot into combat could kill wyches as well. Such a disappointment. That and any game with a lack of cover was just painful to play as dark eldar.

Yeah. As I said in a previous post, I think 10th edition's overall playstyle is a little hostile to drukhari. The tables are smaller, so GW can only let us be so fast. The primary objective (and usually several of the secondary objectives) in a given game is almost always about standing around on magic circles and holding ground. Mechanics like Jink and Flat-Out have been gone for a while, and GW seems reluctant to let people reliably take enemy units hostage in melee. So the whole playstyle of zooming around and temporarily disabling key units while your expensive units kill things for good is kind of a no-go.

I still enjoy my drukhari, but most of the things I liked about them (game-wise) when I first started collecting them in 5th edition are gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:


Tau might be next after Dark Eldar, at least Tau feel like they've still got potential for some updates.

Do Tau need a lot of updates? Their fire warriors got updated when breachers were introduced not too terribly long ago. I feel like most of their HQs have been released/updated since then too. The kroot stuff all got refreshed/added recently. The big suits are all from 6th or 7th edition onward and don't strike me as showing their age. What does that leave to update? The tanks and pirahnas maybe?

 JNAProductions wrote:
You included Chaos Spawn as TEQ.
Broadening a term that much makes it basically useless.

Its T5, and has a 4+/5++. Its not that broad.

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You included Chaos Spawn as TEQ.
Broadening a term that much makes it basically useless.

It’s T5, and has a 4+/5++. It’s not that broad.

Terminators are, normally, T5 W3 2+/4++.
There is wargear that changes that (Storm Shields) and DG terminators have bonus toughness over normal astartes’ toughness.
A Spawn shares exactly one defensive value with Terminators-T5.

Please, if you could, give your definition of TEQ. Not examples-the actual definition you use.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
You included Chaos Spawn as TEQ.
Broadening a term that much makes it basically useless.

It’s T5, and has a 4+/5++. It’s not that broad.

Terminators are, normally, T5 W3 2+/4++.
There is wargear that changes that (Storm Shields) and DG terminators have bonus toughness over normal astartes’ toughness.
A Spawn shares exactly one defensive value with Terminators-T5.

Please, if you could, give your definition of TEQ. Not examples-the actual definition you use.

I already did. Here, again with emphasis.

Breton wrote:

You said TEQ not Tactical Terminator Squad. To me that means everybody with a T5 2+/4++ or close enough for napkin math. And Terminator Captains have 6. Assault Terminators with Storm Shields have 4. Bloodcrushers are fairly close to TEQ and have four wounds. Hellflayers at T6 wtih a 4++ are even closer to Terminator Identical to qualify as TEQ. Broadside Battle Suits at T6, with a 2+ armor save also remind me quite a bit of Terminators. Especially if they fix the keyword problem already discussed. They have 8 Wounds. Carnifexes and Screamer-Killers are less close this go round, but still a little close. Rubric Marines are closer to TEQ than MEQ and they only have two. Sekhetar Robots have 4. Chaos Spawn have four. Allarus Custodians have four. Vertus Praetors have 5. Cthonian Earthshakers have 6. Biovores have 5.

And Spawn aren’t 2+/4++ or even close to it.
Nor are Biovores, or Cthonian Earthshakers.

You didn’t follow your own definition.

 JNAProductions wrote:
And Spawn aren’t 2+/4++ or even close to it.
Nor are Biovores, or Cthonian Earthshakers.

You didn’t follow your own definition.

Its a 4+/5++. That's close enough I can ballpark it. Its the second easiest one out of what you complained about.

Biovores are a T6, 3+ no invuln. That's still close enough I can ballpark it.

Cthonian Earthshakers are a 4+, no invlun. That's the easiest one of the three to ballpark.

That's the whole point of Equivalent. You take something common, you figure out the "recipe" for it's math. Then you apply it to other things that are similar to create an estimate by skipping a step or sliding a pip here or there.

If I know how much damage a power fist does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many powerfists I need to take down 10 Tactical Terminators. And I know how many Powerfists I need to take down 5 Allarus Custodians.

If I know how much damage a Thunder Hammer does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many Thunderhammers I need to take down 10 Tactical Terminators.

If I know how much damage a Powerfirst does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many power fists I need to take down a Cthonian Earthshaker.

If I know how much damage a powerfist does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many powerfists I need to kill Rubric Marines.

This could be the same problem you had when you thought Captain Titus did more damage than a GUO.

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
And Spawn aren’t 2+/4++ or even close to it.
Nor are Biovores, or Cthonian Earthshakers.

You didn’t follow your own definition.

Its a 4+/5++. That's close enough I can ballpark it. Its the second easiest one out of what you complained about.

Biovores are a T6, 3+ no invuln. That's still close enough I can ballpark it.

Cthonian Earthshakers are a 4+, no invlun. That's the easiest one of the three to ballpark.

That's the whole point of Equivalent. You take something common, you figure out the "recipe" for it's math. Then you apply it to other things that are similar to create an estimate by skipping a step or sliding a pip here or there.

If I know how much damage a power fist does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many powerfists I need to take down 10 Tactical Terminators. And I know how many Powerfists I need to take down 5 Allarus Custodians.

If I know how much damage a Thunder Hammer does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many Thunderhammers I need to take down 10 Tactical Terminators.

If I know how much damage a Powerfirst does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many power fists I need to take down a Cthonian Earthshaker.

If I know how much damage a powerfist does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many powerfists I need to kill Rubric Marines.

This could be the same problem you had when you thought Captain Titus did more damage than a GUO.

The 2+ saves is the most important part of TEQ though. Back in the day it was the only distinction between TEQ and MEQ. You can efficiently use completely different weapons into things with much worse armour and the maths is substantially different.

And as this argument shows, the wound profile makes the maths substantially different if you’ve got multi-damage weapons. TEQ is generally 3-4, depending on the exact unit.

Being Infantry is also fairly important they days, both offensively (being able to move through walls) and defensively (for things like anti-infantry). A carnifex is really not equivalent to a terminator in any useful sense.

Regarding Splinter weapons, I think it's fair to say that the 'wound certain types of unit on a 4+' mechanic has not aged well.

It was okay in 5th but as the game has (d)evolved, it has become increasingly shaky. The current rules create a lot of awkward interactions wherein sitting on a bike makes you immune to poison. Plus, the removal of any coherent structure with respect to army-building means that there's no guarantee an army will have any infantry.

I know people have suggested that units should have 'mechanical' and 'biological' subtypes. However, this would merely add to the already bloated mass of keywords on most units.

Instead, I would propose giving Splinter weapons comparable profiles to their Shuriken counterparts, but with -1 strength and Lethal Hits (number of shots can be adjusted as needed).

It would seem a reasonable way to represent poison, without having to worry about drastic swings in effectiveness between target types.

On Archons? It feels pretty indefensible they don’t have options similar to Eldar Autarchs.

I’m not suggesting anything as boring as “Autarch But With Spikes”. Combat Monsters can have different flavours. But let them ride a damned jetbike at least.

Or, as a compromise? Lieutenant Level Characters for the more Merc type elements. I’m not entirely sure what those might look like in terms of equipment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, how about some movement hampering mono-filament bombs for Hellions.

Here I’m thinking of how once upon a time, Eldar Doomweavers, as well as slicing up infantry but fine, left the strike area hazardous to traverse.

Hellions fly over, dropping their “nets”. Enemy then has the choice to move in its next turn and risk some number of Mortal Wounds, or remain stationary, allowing the remaining threads to sink into the ground.

Even if it’s a Once Per Game? It gives Hellions some extra uses.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
And Spawn aren’t 2+/4++ or even close to it.
Nor are Biovores, or Cthonian Earthshakers.

You didn’t follow your own definition.

Its a 4+/5++. That's close enough I can ballpark it. Its the second easiest one out of what you complained about.

Biovores are a T6, 3+ no invuln. That's still close enough I can ballpark it.

Cthonian Earthshakers are a 4+, no invlun. That's the easiest one of the three to ballpark.

That's the whole point of Equivalent. You take something common, you figure out the "recipe" for it's math. Then you apply it to other things that are similar to create an estimate by skipping a step or sliding a pip here or there.

If I know how much damage a power fist does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many powerfists I need to take down 10 Tactical Terminators. And I know how many Powerfists I need to take down 5 Allarus Custodians.

If I know how much damage a Thunder Hammer does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many Thunderhammers I need to take down 10 Tactical Terminators.

If I know how much damage a Powerfirst does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many power fists I need to take down a Cthonian Earthshaker.

If I know how much damage a powerfist does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many powerfists I need to kill Rubric Marines.

This could be the same problem you had when you thought Captain Titus did more damage than a GUO.

The 2+ saves is the most important part of TEQ though. Back in the day it was the only distinction between TEQ and MEQ. You can efficiently use completely different weapons into things with much worse armour and the maths is substantially different.

And as this argument shows, the wound profile makes the maths substantially different if you’ve got multi-damage weapons. TEQ is generally 3-4, depending on the exact unit.

Being Infantry is also fairly important they days, both offensively (being able to move through walls) and defensively (for things like anti-infantry). A carnifex is really not equivalent to a terminator in any useful sense.

TEQ are rarely saving on 2+ but that is one of the numbers to watch and juggle. It appears I will need to continue the explanation - When comparing to the Spawn, their 4+ armor save becomes the same as the 4++ invuln math if you have an AP0 weapon. It become just a pip worse if you have to drop to the Spawn's 5++ invuln. You know the 4++ invuln is X. So the 5++ invuln becomes X (which was half saved) *2 (to get back to the full wounds) Divide 3 (to get to the one third save) For easy math, lets say X is 3. After the 4++ save, you do 3 average damage. Before the save you did 6 average damage. After a 5++ save you do 4 average damage. You can do the same thing with the Cthonian Earthshakers with their 4+ No Invuln. You just start with the 4++ line of the TEQ math and adjust. The Allarus Custodians and Vertus Praetors you just have to do a SvT check and the math should remain the same as unless your S jumps or falls a category. Biovores? That's an even faster SVT check, and your 2+ math moved a pip for 3+

No it doesn't make the math any different. Its the same math. X weapon always does Y average damage you then compare against Z total wounds.
Being Infranty does exactly nothing to the math. Being able to walk through a wall or not doesn't mean anything when it comes to how much of a hole any given weapon will make.

Most people can very easily do 1/2 and 1/3 or 2/3 of a final number in their head. Far fewer can do 50% of 83% of 6. Its 2 and a half. 5/6 of 6 is 5, half of five is 2.5 The point of doing the X -Equivalent math is to already have those numbers done ahead of time to improve your chances of estimating on the units that are mathemtatically similar but not literally exactly equivalent.

Given that this is apparently a tougher concept and they just brought back the old world with scatter dice, Horus Heresy also has scatter dice (Do they also have guess ranges or do they let you measure?) Does anyone want the run down on how to make your Guess Ranges more accurage by remembering the size of the board the size and locations of deployment zones, and hypotenuse formulas for basic triangle shapes?

These things are timesavers, hacks, tools, shortcuts, whatever you want to call them, but they only work if you know how they work so you can use them correctly.

Breton wrote:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
And Spawn aren’t 2+/4++ or even close to it.
Nor are Biovores, or Cthonian Earthshakers.

You didn’t follow your own definition.

Its a 4+/5++. That's close enough I can ballpark it. Its the second easiest one out of what you complained about.

Biovores are a T6, 3+ no invuln. That's still close enough I can ballpark it.

Cthonian Earthshakers are a 4+, no invlun. That's the easiest one of the three to ballpark.

That's the whole point of Equivalent. You take something common, you figure out the "recipe" for it's math. Then you apply it to other things that are similar to create an estimate by skipping a step or sliding a pip here or there.

If I know how much damage a power fist does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many powerfists I need to take down 10 Tactical Terminators. And I know how many Powerfists I need to take down 5 Allarus Custodians.

If I know how much damage a Thunder Hammer does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many Thunderhammers I need to take down 10 Tactical Terminators.

If I know how much damage a Powerfirst does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many power fists I need to take down a Cthonian Earthshaker.

If I know how much damage a powerfist does into TEQ, I can come close enough to knowing how many powerfists I need to kill Rubric Marines.

This could be the same problem you had when you thought Captain Titus did more damage than a GUO.

The 2+ saves is the most important part of TEQ though. Back in the day it was the only distinction between TEQ and MEQ. You can efficiently use completely different weapons into things with much worse armour and the maths is substantially different.

And as this argument shows, the wound profile makes the maths substantially different if you’ve got multi-damage weapons. TEQ is generally 3-4, depending on the exact unit.

Being Infantry is also fairly important they days, both offensively (being able to move through walls) and defensively (for things like anti-infantry). A carnifex is really not equivalent to a terminator in any useful sense.

TEQ are rarely saving on 2+ but that is one of the numbers to watch and juggle. It appears I will need to continue the explanation - When comparing to the Spawn, their 4+ armor save becomes the same as the 4++ invuln math if you have an AP0 weapon. It become just a pip worse if you have to drop to the Spawn's 5++ invuln. You know the 4++ invuln is X. So the 5++ invuln becomes X (which was half saved) *2 (to get back to the full wounds) Divide 3 (to get to the one third save) For easy math, lets say X is 3. After the 4++ save, you do 3 average damage. Before the save you did 6 average damage. After a 5++ save you do 4 average damage. You can do the same thing with the Cthonian Earthshakers with their 4+ No Invuln. You just start with the 4++ line of the TEQ math and adjust. The Allarus Custodians and Vertus Praetors you just have to do a SvT check and the math should remain the same as unless your S jumps or falls a category. Biovores? That's an even faster SVT check, and your 2+ math moved a pip for 3+

No it doesn't make the math any different. Its the same math. X weapon always does Y average damage you then compare against Z total wounds.
Being Infranty does exactly nothing to the math. Being able to walk through a wall or not doesn't mean anything when it comes to how much of a hole any given weapon will make.

Most people can very easily do 1/2 and 1/3 or 2/3 of a final number in their head. Far fewer can do 50% of 83% of 6. Its 2 and a half. 5/6 of 6 is 5, half of five is 2.5 The point of doing the X -Equivalent math is to already have those numbers done ahead of time to improve your chances of estimating on the units that are mathemtatically similar but not literally exactly equivalent.

Given that this is apparently a tougher concept and they just brought back the old world with scatter dice, Horus Heresy also has scatter dice (Do they also have guess ranges or do they let you measure?) Does anyone want the run down on how to make your Guess Ranges more accurage by remembering the size of the board the size and locations of deployment zones, and hypotenuse formulas for basic triangle shapes?

These things are timesavers, hacks, tools, shortcuts, whatever you want to call them, but they only work if you know how they work so you can use them correctly.

"All units are terminator equivalents if I magic numbers and move goal posts."

A TEQ unit is defined as such due to having a terminator stat line or incredibly close to, as a mechanism to indicate the preferred weapon type to use against them and the role they fill.

In the context of a chaos spawn, no. Because you don't need to sink ap-2/3 weapons to get them to a 4++. This is a fundamental difference in efficiency into a target. Further to this, in the context of splinter weapons, a spawn isn't even infantry.

I completely second everything Dudeface said, but I’d like to highlight the below:

No it doesn't make the math any different. It’s the same math. X weapon always does Y average damage you then compare against Z total wounds.

This is wrong, and it’s wrongness is how this line of discussion started.

Take a Dark Lance with D6+2 damage. Into something with >8 wounds it averages 5.5 wounds as you get the whole roll. Into 3 wound models it will consistently do 3. Into 5 wound models it averages only 4.5*.

This makes the expected values very different when you’re calculating across multiple shots, even with the same T and Sv profile!

*not accounting for wounded models which will reduce it further.

Another new unit postulation. Take a Venom. Crossbreed with with the Eldar Support Weapon Platform.

Maybe it mounts a shield generator, dishing out a bubble of 5++ or 4++. Maybe it sports a chunky weapon of some kind. Perhaps it has options between Direct Damage weapons, and weapons which help out your other units in someway. Imagine some kind of radiation phage weapon which lowers the target’s toughness, or a Mono-filament caster that includes chunkier threads to entangle enemy units, slowing them down.

By all means let it be nippy and fragile. Hopefully its utility to you and irritation to the enemy is enough they’re forced to decide between dealing with it quickly, or attacking the main body of your army.

2+/4++ and 4+/5++ are completely different and chaos spawn are not TEQs by any stretch of the definition. That claim is ludicrous.

 Orkeosaurus wrote:
2+/4++ and 4+/5++ are completely different and chaos spawn are not TEQs by any stretch of the definition. That claim is ludicrous.

Also, most Spawn don't have an Invuln at all. Only TSons Spawn do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Another new unit postulation. Take a Venom. Crossbreed with with the Eldar Support Weapon Platform.

Maybe it mounts a shield generator, dishing out a bubble of 5++ or 4++. Maybe it sports a chunky weapon of some kind. Perhaps it has options between Direct Damage weapons, and weapons which help out your other units in someway. Imagine some kind of radiation phage weapon which lowers the target’s toughness, or a Mono-filament caster that includes chunkier threads to entangle enemy units, slowing them down.

By all means let it be nippy and fragile. Hopefully its utility to you and irritation to the enemy is enough they’re forced to decide between dealing with it quickly, or attacking the main body of your army.

I think 5++ would be reasonable. 4++ feels a little much.

The toughness reducer would be cool!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Another new unit postulation. Take a Venom. Crossbreed with with the Eldar Support Weapon Platform.

Maybe it mounts a shield generator, dishing out a bubble of 5++ or 4++. Maybe it sports a chunky weapon of some kind. Perhaps it has options between Direct Damage weapons, and weapons which help out your other units in someway. Imagine some kind of radiation phage weapon which lowers the target’s toughness, or a Mono-filament caster that includes chunkier threads to entangle enemy units, slowing them down.

By all means let it be nippy and fragile. Hopefully its utility to you and irritation to the enemy is enough they’re forced to decide between dealing with it quickly, or attacking the main body of your army.

That’s not far off what the new Corsair Vyper variant does - which DE can indeed take, just without army or detachment rules.

Dudeface wrote:


"All units are terminator equivalents if I magic numbers and move goal posts."

A TEQ unit is defined as such due to having a terminator stat line or incredibly close to, as a mechanism to indicate the preferred weapon type to use against them and the role they fill.

In the context of a chaos spawn, no. Because you don't need to sink ap-2/3 weapons to get them to a 4++. This is a fundamental difference in efficiency into a target. Further to this, in the context of splinter weapons, a spawn isn't even infantry.

So you make up what I said then repeat what I said? Do you think there's some significant mathematical difference between the results of using an AP-2 weapon into Terminators and an AP0 weapon into Spawn? You realize 50% is always 50% whether its an invuln or an armor save?

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


"All units are terminator equivalents if I magic numbers and move goal posts."

A TEQ unit is defined as such due to having a terminator stat line or incredibly close to, as a mechanism to indicate the preferred weapon type to use against them and the role they fill.

In the context of a chaos spawn, no. Because you don't need to sink ap-2/3 weapons to get them to a 4++. This is a fundamental difference in efficiency into a target. Further to this, in the context of splinter weapons, a spawn isn't even infantry.

So you make up what I said then repeat what I said? Do you think there's some significant mathematical difference between the results of using an AP-2 weapon into Terminators and an AP0 weapon into Spawn? You realize 50% is always 50% whether its an invuln or an armor save?

Do you realise there is a significant mathematical difference between firing an ap-2 weapon at a terminator and a spawn?

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Another new unit postulation. Take a Venom. Crossbreed with with the Eldar Support Weapon Platform.

Maybe it mounts a shield generator, dishing out a bubble of 5++ or 4++. Maybe it sports a chunky weapon of some kind. Perhaps it has options between Direct Damage weapons, and weapons which help out your other units in someway. Imagine some kind of radiation phage weapon which lowers the target’s toughness, or a Mono-filament caster that includes chunkier threads to entangle enemy units, slowing them down.

By all means let it be nippy and fragile. Hopefully its utility to you and irritation to the enemy is enough they’re forced to decide between dealing with it quickly, or attacking the main body of your army.

That’s not far off what the new Corsair Vyper variant does - which DE can indeed take, just without army or detachment rules.

I’m definitely envisaging something with a bit more oomph. Like light artillery rather than just a Heavy Weapon or two. It’s something no other Eldar have on a speedy carrier. For a Weaver weapon, show it in a different application etc.

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:


"All units are terminator equivalents if I magic numbers and move goal posts."

A TEQ unit is defined as such due to having a terminator stat line or incredibly close to, as a mechanism to indicate the preferred weapon type to use against them and the role they fill.

In the context of a chaos spawn, no. Because you don't need to sink ap-2/3 weapons to get them to a 4++. This is a fundamental difference in efficiency into a target. Further to this, in the context of splinter weapons, a spawn isn't even infantry.

So you make up what I said then repeat what I said? Do you think there's some significant mathematical difference between the results of using an AP-2 weapon into Terminators and an AP0 weapon into Spawn? You realize 50% is always 50% whether its an invuln or an armor save?

Do you realise there is a significant mathematical difference between firing an ap-2 weapon at a terminator and a spawn?

I realize there isn't. Spawns save on a 4+. AP-2 into TEQ puts them on the 4+/4++ result. Firing into spawns means you start with the 4+/4++ result, and modify. The only change is to the last step. The hit% doesn't change. The wound% doesn't change. All that changes is the save percent. From a number you already have. So you just tack on another operation. The GEQ/MEQ/TEQ things are speed hacks. They're times tables. What's faster - doing all the math all over again - even though 2 of 3 operations will be exactly the same - or just backing out/adding in a last operation for the minor difference?