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 Lathe Biosas wrote:

ccs wrote:

 The Phazer wrote:
Valrak has been saying for a long time that his sources say that Gray Knights and Dark Eldar are both getting major refreshes in 11th.

I suspect they might be split into a few waves like the Craftworld Eldar but I hope there'll be good news for the DE players soon.

So long as they don't screw over my existing GK/Drukhari forces....

Hopefully the refresh kills the baby carriers for GK.

I hope not. I mean, I wouldn't mind if GW made them less stupid looking,... i might even be tempted to replace my existing one.
But i definitely dont want them to drop the unit altogether as that be screwing up my army.
Or if they do drop them? Then as long as they put them in Legends I'd also be fine.

If we can get back to Dark Eldar…

How much cannon should they have to their glass? Drawing on Oldhammer, it was the Goody Two Shoes Eldar that were your Glass Hammer.

Used well, they hit like a freight train and typically didn’t leave an awful lot, bar the opposing player, to complain. But even slight errors in positioning, or not quite being in charge range leaving a unit out in the open, pants round their ankles? They were an easy army to punish. Low toughness, low model count, low to average saves will do that for you.

Classic examples would be Howling Banshees. On paper? A unit of Howling Banshees was absolutely nothing to even a single heavy bolter. Heck, they were at risk from even a single squad of Guardsmen plinking away with Lasguns. But, if they got the charge? The Dice Gods need to have really, really had it in for you if they didn’t slaughter their target handily.

Not only did they have decent fighty stats (High I for those draws, Power Swords for heavy hitting and those Parries to help dodge those odd losses, solid WS). But those Banshee Masks crippled the enemy, reducing their WS to 0 when the Banshees got the charge. Lone characters? Massacred. Squads up to but not really including Terminators? Massacred.

Warp Spiders? Yeah don’t talk to non-Eldar 2nd Ed Veterans about Warp Spiders. Nobody needs to make grown men cry. But again? Catch them out, and they were rapidly toast.

Even your basic Guardians, when upgraded to Shuriken Catapults were horrors. Just, as ever, horrors that went away fairly smartly if you got the chance to shoot back.

And so the entire army really embraced the Glass Cannon/Hammer thing. And a poorly lead Eldar army was, probably, the easiest game of 2nd Ed you’d ever play.

Dark Eldar I think really need to lean into that more. But I couldn’t say if there’s flaws in the underlying modern 40K rules set preventing that really coming to pass.

Dark Eldar need ways to be unpredictable to the enemy with their deployment. They need to pop up, wreck face, and duck for cover. If they fail? It's a "it was at this moment, they knew they f***ed up".

DE really are an all-or-nothing force.

For anti psychers wargear, I'd like something that has a chance of reflecting a power back onto the psychers/ nearby unit. Hit me with a force weapon? There's a 50% chance you actually stabbed yourself.

I'm playing catch-up with the thread. In broad strokes:

I'm not sure drukhari necessarily need "more cannon". I think we just the cannon we have to be less specialized. GW switching from "Poison" to "Anti-Infantry" had some weird consequences for us in some matchups. It used to be that all our poison weapons were decent at punching up into high toughness non-vehicles like bikes, mounted units, etc. We were even weirdly good against Monsters, though admittedly that might have been too much. Nowadays, your splinters are useless into things like bikes, and your lances are needed against vehicles, so the only part of your army that can efficiently trade with the enemy's bikes, t-cav, etc., are things like blasters (normally not something you have a ton of) and mid-strength melee units like hellions or incubi.

And on a similar note, blasters getting the meltagun treatment (not having their strenght scaled up to match vehicle toughness) means that you can't reliably count on blasters to help against vehicles like you used to, which puts even more pressure on your lances.

I feel like swapping "anti-infantry" on all our stuff that has it and replacing that with an army rule called "Poison" that is basically anti-everything-except-vehicles-and-monsters would help get rid of a lot of awkward interactions. Making blasters and blast pistols competent anti-tank threats again would free up more of your dark light to reach out and help against threats that poison can't handle as well. Basically divide our offense into anti-big-stuff and anti-little-stuff rather than also having this anti-medium-stuff bracket in the middle throwing things off.

Additionally or alternatively, I wish they'd bring back some of our old ability to mitigate threats temporarily. What I *loved* about haywire back in the day was that it could *very* reliably keep an enemy vehicle out of the fight for a turn without requiring you to murder it outright. And there used to be forum discussions about the correct number of wyches to take in a squad so that you could win combat without killing the enemy outright so you could hide in combat for a turn. The 8th/9th edition of shardnets preventing enemies from running away allowed for a similar tactic.

Basically, we used to be better at pinning down a couple of threats here and there with some of our units while our hammer units dealt killing blows. And so part of playing the army was figuring out how to tie-up some threats with relatively cheap units while your more expensive units silenced the enemy for good. It was a decent way to emphasize our skill and portray some of that "sadists playing with their food" energy. Nowadays, GW mostly just has us playing the trading pieces game where we send a suicide squad to kill an enemy unit before inevitably getting blasted to pieces in return, and the game is basically a question of whether or not you spent your suicide missiles on the right enemy targets.

My favorite versions of dark eldar have always had this feeling of pulling off wins by the skin of your teeth. Where your whole fleet of raiders zoomed in to pounce on the enemy and you had wyches and incubi spilling out to tie up and kill key units, and your scourges were doing their best to haywire that big, tough thing in the back that couldn't be killed yet. And then your opponent attacked back, and some of your stuff died, but other stuff was still alive because it had taken an enemy unit hostage in melee, or because your vehicles had zoomed *so fast* they got a cover save that kept them alive for an extra turn. Modern dark eldar don't really have much of that. GW kind of gave up on it in 9th when they just made us hyper-lethal and nothing else, and 10th edition drukhari are still sort of recovering from that. Plus, we have the same issues as craftworlders where 10th edition is basically a cage match that wants you to stand out in the open standing on magic circles while you wait for the enemy to kill you.

Regarding the faction being split up into subfactions too heavily, agreed. The first and best version of GW doing this was 5th edition where they simply gave us troop and character options to potentially field exclusively kabal/cult/coven without having to take a bunch of the other stuff. It felt like the fluff was being acknowledged without getting in the way. Every codex after that, the divisions have caused us to have to jump through hoops to avoid having those divisions be an active liability. 10th edition isn't terrible about this, but it does mean that half our detachments will cause you to either ignore half the codex or have chunks of your army that don't benefit from them.

Anti-psyker stuff: I don't think drukhari need to go out of their way to have a ton of this, but the crucible of malediction is a classic. You could probably sprinkle around a couple other anti-psyker effects if you really wanted to. Give mandrakes an option that says their tattoos protect against warp effects. Bring back Malys's Crystal Heart psychic defense. Maybe say that getting shot by a Medusae scrambles your brains and makes psychic powers extra dangerous or unreliable to use for a turn. Etc.

If you were going to swap Anti-Infantry X+ to a Poison rule, I'd have it be Poison(X+, Y+), where Y+ is for Monsters (as Poison should affect them), while the X+ is for Anti-whatever-other-keywords-we-need-to-cover-here.

X+ and Y+ can then vary depending by unit/weapon.

I should note that, shot per shot, a Bolt Rifle is actually equal to a Splinter Rifle into TEQ, and better into MEQ. It is affected by cover/Armor of Contempt, which Splinter Rifles are not, but it’s still kinda a drag.

 Dysartes wrote:
If you were going to swap Anti-Infantry X+ to a Poison rule, I'd have it be Poison(X+, Y+), where Y+ is for Monsters (as Poison should affect them), while the X+ is for Anti-whatever-other-keywords-we-need-to-cover-here.

X+ and Y+ can then vary depending by unit/weapon.

Huh. Yeah, that would probably be a decent way to reflect the fluff without making splinter weapons overwhelming for MCs. Good idea.

There's also a more complicated discussion to be had about what poison should actually be doing in the first place. Is it actually there to make the army more lethal? Is it more of a specialized tool (Like the death watch special ammo) that defaults to knocking out future-slaves but can come in other variants for targets that are too dangerous to leave alive? Should it perhaps have a higher Damage stat against beefier targets but still wound with as much difficulty as a more conventional weapon? Should a volley of poisoned projectiles be assumed to have left a bunch of minor, non-lethal scratches on the target that then causes them to be debuffed or even take damage over time?

The assumption in the past seems to have been this idea that you just needed to get tiny wound onto a target that otherwise wouldn't incapacitate them, and then the toxins turned the wound into something actually potent. I.e. your splinter rifle hit a carnifex in the claw, which wouldn't be lethal if we were talking about a shuriken or a bolter, but then the poison seeped into its system and did some telling damage anyway.

I feel like character lhameans and wargear options for haemonculi would be great places to play around with what effects poison actually has. Want poison weapons that work on vehicles? (A canonical thing that we had rules for an edition or two ago.) Bring a lhamean who's authorized to tell everyone to load up the special rounds she handed out before the raid.

 Dysartes wrote:
If you were going to swap Anti-Infantry X+ to a Poison rule, I'd have it be Poison(X+, Y+), where Y+ is for Monsters (as Poison should affect them), while the X+ is for Anti-whatever-other-keywords-we-need-to-cover-here.

X+ and Y+ can then vary depending by unit/weapon.

Surely Monsters having, typically, loads of wounds and decent armour would be balance enough?

I say this as someone who remembers the boredom of Nidzilla being occasionally alleviated when they ran into the then rare Dark Eldar, and got all pizzened 2 def super quickly. Was never my win, true. But to see the smug grin of a Nidzilla Goit* wiped off their idiot chudly countenance was therapeutic.

*Not to be confused with a Tyranid player who happens to like big gribbly monsters. Like how my love for Dreadnoughts, and Contemptors being well beardy in 2nd Ed Heresy are two separate things.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
If you were going to swap Anti-Infantry X+ to a Poison rule, I'd have it be Poison(X+, Y+), where Y+ is for Monsters (as Poison should affect them), while the X+ is for Anti-whatever-other-keywords-we-need-to-cover-here.

X+ and Y+ can then vary depending by unit/weapon.

Surely Monsters having, typically, loads of wounds and decent armour would be balance enough?

I say this as someone who remembers the boredom of Nidzilla being occasionally alleviated when they ran into the then rare Dark Eldar, and got all pizzened 2 def super quickly. Was never my win, true. But to see the smug grin of a Nidzilla Goit* wiped off their idiot chudly countenance was therapeutic.

*Not to be confused with a Tyranid player who happens to like big gribbly monsters. Like how my love for Dreadnoughts, and Contemptors being well beardy in 2nd Ed Heresy are two separate things.

I'm not sure, to be honest. Monsters pay points for high toughness stats. My gut says that having the basic weapons of an army wound Monsters on 3+ or 4+ with no regard for their Toughness would probably be easy to make imbalanced. Especially given that said weapons need to be cheap enough to also be your go-to horde-clearing tool.

Marine bolters are frequently wounding tanks on 4+ thanks to Oath of Moment. How feels-bad would it be to have drukhari wounding similarly costed models on a 3+ army-wide for fewer points?

Just feels like the balancing factor of heavily theming a list.

My snarky comments about Nidzilla Chudlys earlier? The price of really leaning into One Thing is, sooner or later, you’ll run into your natural counter. The army you just struggle against.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I should note that, shot per shot, a Bolt Rifle is actually equal to a Splinter Rifle into TEQ, and better into MEQ. It is affected by cover/Armor of Contempt, which Splinter Rifles are not, but it’s still kinda a drag.

Why exactly is it a drag that the Marine basic weapon is equal into Terminator Armor when compared to the Dark Eldar basic weapon?

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I should note that, shot per shot, a Bolt Rifle is actually equal to a Splinter Rifle into TEQ, and better into MEQ. It is affected by cover/Armor of Contempt, which Splinter Rifles are not, but it’s still kinda a drag.

Why exactly is it a drag that the Marine basic weapon is equal into Terminator Armor when compared to the Dark Eldar basic weapon?

Because the splinter rifle is a specific anti-infantry weapon on a faction about hitting hard before melting. The bolt rifle is generalist weapon held by the target the Splinter rifles are meant to be useful into.

 Dysartes wrote:
If you were going to swap Anti-Infantry X+ to a Poison rule, I'd have it be Poison(X+, Y+), where Y+ is for Monsters (as Poison should affect them), while the X+ is for Anti-whatever-other-keywords-we-need-to-cover-here.

X+ and Y+ can then vary depending by unit/weapon.

Maybe they should make 'Biological' a keyword to make poisoned weapons make more sense? Also, so that poison doesn't work on Necrons?

 BorderCountess wrote:

Maybe they should make 'Biological' a keyword to make poisoned weapons make more sense? Also, so that poison doesn't work on Necrons?

I think this is a good idea in theory, but how many keywords do we need? I’ve seen similar arguments about how invuln saves should also be flagged as tough/magic/dodge to help interact with things that ignore them in prior editions.

If we start tagging units/guns/rules with more keywords it gives us a lot more hooks for interactions. Which makes for some more realistic rules interactions. We have a few now, like psychic. Having more would allow for more granularity. But the worry would be bloating the datasheet. Not to make a slippery slope argument, but how many other rules besides poison could use a flag to help sort things out? We want both a granular system that makes sense, and one streamlined enough to play.

On that note, I’m fine with poison being a hard counter for monster lists. Outside of one army, it’s pretty rare. Sure it’s going to make some bad match ups between nidzilla and dark eldar players. But that happens when you make skew lists. I’d rather keep a simple “wound non-vehicles on a X+” then have to add complexity.

All that said, I do think adding a biological/inorganic keyword to everything is not unreasonable. It’s not just poison, but also stuff like haywire a some mental stuff. and terrain. Since it has a number of things that hook off of it, it’s not unreasonable.

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I should note that, shot per shot, a Bolt Rifle is actually equal to a Splinter Rifle into TEQ, and better into MEQ. It is affected by cover/Armor of Contempt, which Splinter Rifles are not, but it’s still kinda a drag.

Why exactly is it a drag that the Marine basic weapon is equal into Terminator Armor when compared to the Dark Eldar basic weapon?

Because the splinter rifle is a specific anti-infantry weapon on a faction about hitting hard before melting. The bolt rifle is generalist weapon held by the target the Splinter rifles are meant to be useful into.

A generalist weapon? What makes it a generalist weapon? Is there some sort of Anti-tank profile I'm unfamiliar with? Does it get S12 vs Monsters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nevelon wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

Maybe they should make 'Biological' a keyword to make poisoned weapons make more sense? Also, so that poison doesn't work on Necrons?

I think this is a good idea in theory, but how many keywords do we need?

Well this was only part of the theory. Everything should have Biological (Some dude in a shirt, a big giant bug monster) or Mechanical (a floaty tau drone, a Land Raider), or rarely both (Bikers, more?) There are probably at least a few other categories that can be applied in similar fashion to help abilities like this be a more discerning "rule breaker".

Do modern DE offer any psychology tricks?

I’m not entirely persuaded they were ever terribly effective, but originally they had grenade things which could rapidly force Break Tests?

Dunno exactly what it was. Just a dim memory of Kabul Squad Leaders having grenade packs that did something with Ld tests.

Phantasm grenades perhaps?

It's a drag because Kabalites, at 11.5 points per model and two shots per Kabalite, do less damage into common Infantry than an Intercessor does, with their 16 points per model and four shots per guy.

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I should note that, shot per shot, a Bolt Rifle is actually equal to a Splinter Rifle into TEQ, and better into MEQ. It is affected by cover/Armor of Contempt, which Splinter Rifles are not, but it’s still kinda a drag.

Why exactly is it a drag that the Marine basic weapon is equal into Terminator Armor when compared to the Dark Eldar basic weapon?

Because the splinter rifle is a specific anti-infantry weapon on a faction about hitting hard before melting. The bolt rifle is generalist weapon held by the target the Splinter rifles are meant to be useful into.

A generalist weapon? What makes it a generalist weapon? Is there some sort of Anti-tank profile I'm unfamiliar with? Does it get S12 vs Monsters?

Holy mother of strawman arguments.

You know it doesn't, you know that I'm comparing a specialist weapon with no ap and 1 damage that has anti-infantry 3+ to a weapon with more range, shots, ap and no specialism.

That doesn't magically make it an ideal anti-tank weapon. It means it's more applicable to a wider range of targets.

Was just thinking about other armies, and realised perhaps DE could do with something akin to Barbgaunts?

Whilst reasonably shooty, the Barbgaunts main advantage is hampering enemy movement. That seems like a tool DE could do an awful lot with?

Breton wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

Maybe they should make 'Biological' a keyword to make poisoned weapons make more sense? Also, so that poison doesn't work on Necrons?

I think this is a good idea in theory, but how many keywords do we need?

Well this was only part of the theory. Everything should have Biological (Some dude in a shirt, a big giant bug monster) or Mechanical (a floaty tau drone, a Land Raider), or rarely both (Bikers, more?) There are probably at least a few other categories that can be applied in similar fashion to help abilities like this be a more discerning "rule breaker".

At the minute I think Biological, Mechanical (which would include buildings, I guess) and Daemonic would probably cover all bases, off the top of my head?

I agree that units could cover two of those categories, too - bikers, the Primario Kart, the Marine Warsuit, the GK Baby Carrier, etc.

BorderCountess wrote:
Maybe they should make 'Biological' a keyword to make poisoned weapons make more sense? Also, so that poison doesn't work on Necrons?

'Crons vs drukhari have always been a bit odd where the poison thing is concerned. The usual explanation is that when drukhkari know they're going to find metal robots, they load up on the metallotoxic or haywire-infused rounds instead of the usual poisons. It's a workable explanation if a bit of a stretch.

But obviously the real reason poison weapons work on 'crons is that mechanically having an army be immune to another army's basic guns is a nightmare in terms of game balance. Even if you off-set the problem somewhat by giving splinter weapons a pip or two of strength, you'd still have things like agonizers underperforming army-wide.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Was just thinking about other armies, and realised perhaps DE could do with something akin to Barbgaunts?

Whilst reasonably shooty, the Barbgaunts main advantage is hampering enemy movement. That seems like a tool DE could do an awful lot with?

I could see something like that being tied to certain unit or weapon types. Basically the idea being that the last splinter volley didn't do much *damage*, but it knicked the target a bunch and microdosed them with some paralytics making them more sluggish. Sort of like a mobility version of the fire warrior's rule that imposes -1 to-hit on whatever they shoot at.

The question becomes one of application, I think. The current kabalite special rule does a lot to help drukhari not feel like they have to loiter in magic circles. Tying it to the weapon profile instead of making it a unit ability would mean you'd be able to sprinkle the debuff on basically your opponnet's entire army if you were so inclined. It probably works as a strat or a character lhamean rule, etc. But then it's not helping all the other poison weapons in your army.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It's a drag because Kabalites, at 11.5 points per model and two shots per Kabalite, do less damage into common Infantry than an Intercessor does, with their 16 points per model and four shots per guy.

It’s a drag that models who cost less per model do the same damage vs TEQ but slightly? less against MEQ?

Should Khaballite Warriors at 11.5 ppm do more per model damage into anything than 16 point intercessors for some reason?

What is that reason?

Is there a reason you’ve move from this gun vs that gun to this unit vs that unit?

I should note that, shot per shot, a Bolt Rifle is actually equal to a Splinter Rifle into TEQ, and better into MEQ. It is affected by cover/Armor of Contempt, which Splinter Rifles are not, but it’s still kinda a drag.

Is there a reason you’ve moved to unit vs unit, include one units one bespoke, but not any of the other bespokes or upgrades?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I should note that, shot per shot, a Bolt Rifle is actually equal to a Splinter Rifle into TEQ, and better into MEQ. It is affected by cover/Armor of Contempt, which Splinter Rifles are not, but it’s still kinda a drag.

Why exactly is it a drag that the Marine basic weapon is equal into Terminator Armor when compared to the Dark Eldar basic weapon?

Because the splinter rifle is a specific anti-infantry weapon on a faction about hitting hard before melting. The bolt rifle is generalist weapon held by the target the Splinter rifles are meant to be useful into.

A generalist weapon? What makes it a generalist weapon? Is there some sort of Anti-tank profile I'm unfamiliar with? Does it get S12 vs Monsters?

Holy mother of strawman arguments.

You know it doesn't, you know that I'm comparing a specialist weapon with no ap and 1 damage that has anti-infantry 3+ to a weapon with more range, shots, ap and no specialism.

That doesn't magically make it an ideal anti-tank weapon. It means it's more applicable to a wider range of targets.

Taking one for the team after the other thread, stop having such a raging hate boner at the idea of anyone having any opinion of marines that isn't assuming they're perfect and the best.

You should google the definition of strawman. I didn't change your claim. This wasn't it.

As for things I know and don't know:

I know you (and the person who originally posted the observation) are comparing the basic weapon of the basic battleline unit to the basic weapon of another basic battleline unit and trying to justify (You may want to google Cherry Picking too) a reason for them to be differently powered.

I know this same person lamented the (inaccurate) fact that Captain Titus with what you would call a "specialist" Anti-Infantry Chainsword did more damage into MEQ than a Great Unclean One. When the GUO actually had a REAL generalist weapon with a Pick-One profile setup for Strike and Sweep.

I don't know why Khaballite Warriors with ANTI-Infantry guns should be more effective into MEQ vs Intercessors than a Captain with ANTI-Infantry swords into MEQ than a GUO.

A splinter rifle is equal into TEQ shot per shot.
An intercessor is slightly more expensive (just shy of 40% more) but has twice as many shots per model.

 JNAProductions wrote:
A splinter rifle is equal into TEQ shot per shot.
An intercessor is slightly more expensive (just shy of 40% more) but has twice as many shots per model.

Now we're back into shot-per-shot?

And I'm still not clear on why a BATTLELINE unit that costs ~50% shouldn't also put out ~50% of the BATTLELINE results?

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
A splinter rifle is equal into TEQ shot per shot.
An intercessor is slightly more expensive (just shy of 40% more) but has twice as many shots per model.

Now we're back into shot-per-shot?

And I'm still not clear on why a BATTLELINE unit that costs ~50% shouldn't also put out ~50% of the BATTLELINE results?

Intercessors cost less than half again the points of Kabalites, while the basic dudes put out 200% the damage into TEQ and 225% into MEQ.

A 10-strong kabalite squad, with sarge having a rifle and max heavy weapons, expects to do 8/9ths a point of damage from 12 Splinter shots, about 2/3rds a point of damage from the Blaster, another 2/3rds from the Dark lance (I’m assuming they moved, since a lot of this is 18” range), a little over 1/3rd from the Shredder, and another 8/9ths from the Splinter cannon.
In total, that’s about 3.5 damage to TEQ.

7 Intercessors with one grenade launcher do about 2.1 damage from rifles and 4/9ths from the Grenade launcher. Totaling about 70% the damage from just about equal points.

Kabalites are slightly faster, but also significantly less durable.

 Dysartes wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

Maybe they should make 'Biological' a keyword to make poisoned weapons make more sense? Also, so that poison doesn't work on Necrons?

I think this is a good idea in theory, but how many keywords do we need?

Well this was only part of the theory. Everything should have Biological (Some dude in a shirt, a big giant bug monster) or Mechanical (a floaty tau drone, a Land Raider), or rarely both (Bikers, more?) There are probably at least a few other categories that can be applied in similar fashion to help abilities like this be a more discerning "rule breaker".

At the minute I think Biological, Mechanical (which would include buildings, I guess) and Daemonic would probably cover all bases, off the top of my head?

I agree that units could cover two of those categories, too - bikers, the Primario Kart, the Marine Warsuit, the GK Baby Carrier, etc.

I would make (most?) Daemons Biological. We already have the DAEMON keyword that could be used if you're trying to create some sort of "Holy Water" rule similar to Poison/Haywire.

I would include the Kart (especially if they further refine Poison to be effective and/or applicable in a more focused manner, but not the Warsuit. The Warsuit (and the Nemesis Dreadknight), or War Walkers, and the like as they're more parallel to the Dreadnaughts. I think you'd have to kind of fudge the line back and forth to get the bikes and attack bike type units no matter what they look like, or this faction's dread because their model looks open topped but not that faction's because they're not. The Kart is now a VEHICLE but is also quite obviously a replacement for the Attack Bike, and would have been an ATTACK BIKE MOUNTED if not for the potential for apothecaries to ressurrect an entire 8W Attack bike. And few of them will be as obvious as the Kart. Skyrunners are obviously MOUNTED bikes. Voidweavers are far less obvious when trying to decide if they're a two crew-speeder, or an attack bike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Breton wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
A splinter rifle is equal into TEQ shot per shot.
An intercessor is slightly more expensive (just shy of 40% more) but has twice as many shots per model.

Now we're back into shot-per-shot?

And I'm still not clear on why a BATTLELINE unit that costs ~50% shouldn't also put out ~50% of the BATTLELINE results?

Intercessors cost less than half again the points of Kabalites, while the basic dudes put out 200% the damage into TEQ and 225% into MEQ.

A 10-strong kabalite squad, with sarge having a rifle and max heavy weapons, expects to do 8/9ths a point of damage from 12 Splinter shots, about 2/3rds a point of damage from the Blaster, another 2/3rds from the Dark lance (I’m assuming they moved, since a lot of this is 18” range), a little over 1/3rd from the Shredder, and another 8/9ths from the Splinter cannon.
In total, that’s about 3.5 damage to TEQ.

7 Intercessors with one grenade launcher do about 2.1 damage from rifles and 4/9ths from the Grenade launcher. Totaling about 70% the damage from just about equal points.

Kabalites are slightly faster, but also significantly less durable.

And now we're back to NOT Shot-for-shot.

And your math is wrong again. The average damage dealt by a Dark Lance is 5.5 (D6+2 = Average 3.5 +2 = 5.5) 5.5 damage that hits half the time is 2.75 Damage. 2.75 Damage that wounds 83.3% of the time is 2.29. 2.29 Damage that is nullified half the time by a 4++ invuln is 1.145. 1.145 is significantly more than .667.

How are you dealing 5.5 damage to a Terminator?
Average damage into a W3 model cannot be higher than 3.

Edit: I should also note I’ve plainly stated what parameters I’m using each time. It shouldn’t be confusing what math refers to what models/weapons/etc.
It’s valuable to look at multiple angles, not just one.

So here's what i want.

Give us different bike units. Maybe either add a ranged bike unit with assault disintegrators (str 5, ap 2-3, damage 2, 3 shots, 18" range) or shredders and make every bike equipped with one instead of that 1 out of 3 nonsense. That and add some better melee options to the bikes whether weapons on the bikes themselves like instead of just a lamer version of grav talon and cluster caltrops maybe make those choices interesting again (lots of melee hits for caltrops and grav talons make enemies fight last with lower weapon skill or something) and give bikes a haywire option on the bike itself in melee or something that can even take down monsters or vehicles or give the bikes better melee options like spears or some really nasty bike blades that do more than normal bladvanes. Also make our bikes -1 to hit against shooting since the most stealthy hit and run faction deserves it if harlequins get it.

I haven't checked the latest codex but incubi with a 3+/5++ would be nice and maybe give them the ability to shoot from their helmets like they used to have. Then give them a form of webway ability like warp spiders except maybe allow them to move and jump into melee and jump out. Also give them more options besides the klaive as melee options. Also give them some fear options back where they scare the crap out of other units and need to make a leadership test on a certain amount to leave combat. That or make their webway ability and/or fear helmets allow the enemy to not overwatch when they charge.

I can't remember about the latest raider option but they should absolutely have assault ramps or some sort of thing for fast assaults.

Improve the fear options. Make them better and allow for more negative modifiers for enemy shooting (negative modifiers to ballistic skill, preventing overwatch or lowering their shooting ranges) or melee (strikes last or lower WS). The enemy should be disoriented, out-maneuvered and unaware. Also the lowered enemy ranges were normal vs raiders with certain upgrades in 5th.

Make archons good again. Allow them to give out buffs if they're in a transport and when they're out of them. Give them the option to take bikes, scourge wings, or hellions or at least give some of those options to the succubus. They should be either melee, fear inducing or shooting power-houses. Make them like the old Big meks where they shoot a gun at you that throws you into the warp if it rolls high enough except just make it fairly strong in general. Make the old huskblade archons that can boost their power until they can finally face monsters in combat and win.

Make haemonculus be massively anti-psyker like they used to be. Give them some super gun (like a super hex rifle that has massive ap and instant death as well as can pick out characters) or anti-monster weapon in melee.

Give us more vehicle options including the Dais of Destruction and maybe give more options to the ravager. We absolutely need one or two super heavies.

Add some sort of super monster like a talos except way bigger like a Knight.

Bring back grotesques and give them more melee options like one for anti-vehicle and make flesh gauntlets anti monster and anti infantry.

Give scourge a disintegrators option with 36" range and the jump-shoot-jump ability. Scourge also need 4+/5++ if they don't have it already.

More deep strike across the board, better movement ranges, better ability to lower incoming damage, better ability to tank for covens and better ability to increase damage and fear.

Bring back Medusae and have them do negative modifiers against the enemy if any enemies get wounded by them to make archon assaulting with them easier.

Make lhamean poison super strong and go through a lot of ap and hurt monsters and infantry really well.

Make poisoned attacks do more damage and have more ap in general.

Add a grenade type like phantasm except launched by haemonculus covens that makes enemies fight and hurt each other and do damage against themselves and/or prevent overwatch or count as if they're in melee.

More and better snipers for covens. There's no way a faction built around killing enemy leaders and causing mass panic in their opponents shouldn't like snipers or some form of enemy character killing.

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Some of these options would be fun but dark eldar have become increasing boring to play as. Last i played necrons could teleport out of combat and shoot into wych squads nets or no and a lot of things that could shoot into combat could kill wyches as well. Such a disappointment. That and any game with a lack of cover was just painful to play as dark eldar.

 JNAProductions wrote:
How are you dealing 5.5 damage to a Terminator?
Average damage into a W3 model cannot be higher than 3.

Average Damage into a 3 wound model can be higher than three but above three is lost. Unless it becomes Mortal.

You said TEQ not Tactical Terminator Squad. To me that means everybody with a T5 2+/4++ or close enough for napkin math. And Terminator Captains have 6. Assault Terminators with Storm Shields have 4. Bloodcrushers are fairly close to TEQ and have four wounds. Hellflayers at T6 wtih a 4++ are even closer to Terminator Identical to qualify as TEQ. Broadside Battle Suits at T6, with a 2+ armor save also remind me quite a bit of Terminators. Especially if they fix the keyword problem already discussed. They have 8 Wounds. Carnifexes and Screamer-Killers are less close this go round, but still a little close. Rubric Marines are closer to TEQ than MEQ and they only have two. Sekhetar Robots have 4. Chaos Spawn have four. Allarus Custodians have four. Vertus Praetors have 5. Cthonian Earthshakers have 6. Biovores have 5.

I said TEQ.
That’s terminator equivalent, so T5 W3 with a 2+/4++ these days.

Is this where I accuse you of lying because you misinterpreted what I wrote?