Question

Are conscripts worth anything?

If you are playing killpoints they are crap. Really they are crap all the time. I see them as maybe a disposable cover save. If it's objectives and you can place one around 6" from the board edge then a "Send in the Next Wave" conscript squad could be good. They hold the objective, die, respawn and run right back on it. But don't expect them to hold off anything or take an objective from anybody.

They will die though, giving the other guy First blood and/or a killpoint.

So now it´s quite a while since both footguard and mech have been declared dead. What is the way to go now?

foot guard isn't dead, it's just now MEQ battle brothers little whore as shown in the bay area open.
Meq guard can still be good, as shown by Ail's reports (but not in the tourney scene that I've seen).
However you'll have people with names beginning with P shouting for vendetta's and Vultures coming out of the wazoo.

tommse wrote:
So now it´s quite a while since both footguard and mech have been declared dead. What is the way to go now?

I'm going with the Lightly Mechanized Segway soliders......

Artillery/Flyers seems to be the competitive way to go now, taking 3-4 bassies and 3 vendettas carrying stormtroopers/melta vets. People will of course hate you in friendly games, but that's a given with vendettas. I faced down a guy with that list at Ghengis Con, it blew my army to pieces in 2-3 turns, then he just marched out a couple infantry squads from behind his aegis and took objectives. I was lucky to tie via submunition railguns.

I've ordered 3 artillery kits, is it worth it to try and convert them into medusas/griffons/buying a bombard or converting into colossus? I like the basilisk's model and rules, but I want a huge mortar from a bombard/colossus to flatten MEQ with.

 Blaggard wrote:

However you'll have people with names beginning with P shouting for vendetta's and Vultures coming out of the wazoo.

It's not like one would be wrong to suggest Vendettas and Vultures.

They're two of IG's best units.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Blaggard wrote:

However you'll have people with names beginning with P shouting for vendetta's and Vultures coming out of the wazoo.

It's not like one would be wrong to suggest Vendettas and Vultures.

They're two of IG's best units.

But why would anyone want to bring something just because it's the best unit in the codex?

Also, that guy whose name begins with P is really mean and keeps telling me my list is bad because I don't bring the best units in the codex.

While we're on the subject, I do have a quick query. I've been wanting to include more Vultures in my lists, but doing so usually means fewer Vendettas for my scoring units. I'd like to bring at least two Vultures, but I don't want to compromise my ability to take objectives.

If I'm allying with Space Wolves, I can leave the PCS on the ground to provide FRFSRF to the Prescience boosted power blob. Four twin-linked plasma guns and 32 twin-linked FRFSRF lasguns will do a number on anything without an armor value. So the only squad that needs a Vendetta is the plasmavets...but then my only mobile scoring unit is the plasmavets.

I can ally with Elysians to get an extra Vendetta and Vulture, but this means losing the Rune Priest. I'd like to keep my infantry platoon, so as to retain access to Sabre Artillery Platforms. But that means bringing at least 100 points of guardsmen, and I don't have the access to the force multipliers to make any further investment worth it. And of course, I can't put Imperial Guard Veterans into an Elysian Vendetta.

Suggestions?

Corollax wrote:
While we're on the subject, I do have a quick query. I've been wanting to include more Vultures in my lists, but doing so usually means fewer Vendettas for my scoring units. I'd like to bring at least two Vultures, but I don't want to compromise my ability to take objectives.

Squadron two Vendettas. Yes, this does limit your placement of the two scoring units a bit, but 4" coherency (measured wingtip to wingtip) plus grav chute or 6" disembark lets you put the squadron in the middle between two objectives and drop one squad on each.

I was afraid you were going to say that! *groan*

Corollax wrote:
I was afraid you were going to say that! *groan*

I guess you could always ask your opponent to let you take four fast attack choices...

But then I wouldn't be playing Warhammer 40k.

One other question. When I ally with Space Wolves for a Rune Priest, I have a mandatory troop choice to fill. Presently, I've just taken 10 Grey Hunters with 2 plasma guns. I could purchase a transport for them, but in the absence of a strong vehicle presence, I think this would be unwise.

If Forgeworld isn't an option, I take a pair of Manticores to provide some artillery support. Besides the Vendettas, these are the only vehicles in my list. If Forgeworld is present, I'm taking Sabres, Earthshaker, and Medusa artillery platforms, with a mix of Vendettas and Vultures. Neither case is a particularly safe environment for a Rhino.

Can I do anything better than just sending them out on foot? I could buy them a Wolf Standard, MotW, or power weapon, but I don't feel these purchases are justified. I'd like to know if I'm at least on the right track, here.

Corollax wrote:


Can I do anything better than just sending them out on foot? I could buy them a Wolf Standard, MotW, or power weapon, but I don't feel these purchases are justified. I'd like to know if I'm at least on the right track, here.

I'm having a similar issue. My previous list had 2 GH squads in drop pods and chimera support in an armoured thrust.
My new list however, I've had to cut it down to one GH squad in a drop pod. They just die. A rhino would have the same issue, except you'd probably never get to fire their guns.

The best solution I've found so far is to invest 104 points on Combi-melta Wolf Guard in a drop pod. While they're absolutely going to die, they've got a good chance of eliminating something of equal point value in the process.

And just as importantly, purchasing one drop pod allows me to purchase a second for my Grey Hunter squad, which can then use it for normal reserves. By coming in later, they're more likely to be able to find a weakened or isolated target to push off an objective. A comms relay can help in this regard, by rerolling "successful" reserve rolls -- especially since I'm already purchasing one for the various flyers I'm taking.

I haven't been able to convince my boyfriend to go along with this plan, though. He's got a strong aversion for suicide units -- especially ones that give up two kill points in the process. I can't say I really blame him.

Corollax wrote:
The best solution I've found so far is to invest 104 points on Combi-melta Wolf Guard in a drop pod. While they're absolutely going to die, they've got a good chance of eliminating something of equal point value in the process.

This is probably the right idea. You identified the problem already, that power armor and blobs don't have much synergy (other than the rune priest leading the blob) and single transports don't accomplish much, so what you're left with is units that can work independently elsewhere on the table. And for SW, the obvious answer is drop pod melta. IG stormtroopers with melta are good suicide units, so why not take a unit that is better in every way?

Though I will add that taking a single transport isn't quite as suicidal as it might be in other foot lists, since the T7 spam of your artillery units is going to draw a lot of the same fire that normally goes to killing vehicles. A single Rhino/Razorback is still going to be vulnerable, but not so vulnerable that you can guarantee it will die on turn 1.

And just as importantly, purchasing one drop pod allows me to purchase a second for my Grey Hunter squad, which can then use it for normal reserves.

IMO the best thing to do with this is melta + wolf guard with combi-melta for a second suicide unit. You'll probably get it early enough to be useful, and taking a full ten-man squad is probably taking too much away from your IG.

I haven't been able to convince my boyfriend to go along with this plan, though. He's got a strong aversion for suicide units -- especially ones that give up two kill points in the process. I can't say I really blame him.

Question here then: are you talking about allied SW as in you're playing one army using a primary detachment + allies, or some kind of doubles tournament where he'd be playing the SW army (but then why can't you take Elysian allies)? Or is it just a shared army with a limited model budget that you need to agree on?

If you are playing together and need to agree on it then the only other option I can think of is taking a small squad with an attached terminator wolf guard with cyclone missiles and camping on an objective somewhere behind the blob. It's not quite ideal, but it gives you a bit of long-range firepower while holding an objective but shouldn't draw so much attention that it's instantly wiped off the table by every anti-marine weapon in your opponent's army.

Shared army. But since the cost of this purchase is so small (3 marines and a drop pod), budget isn't a huge constraint. It's just nice to be able to focus on the parts of the hobby you enjoy. Call it a division of labor of love.

The 5-man GH squad with Pack Leader escort isn't a bad idea, actually. At that point, I'm paying 81 points for 2 combi-melta in the first drop pod, and 103 points for a meltagun and combi-melta in the second. The only quibble I have with it is that I'm compromising the survivability of my Grey Hunter squad. Since my rationale in purchasing these drop pods was to get another scoring unit in the enemy's backfield, that's counter-productive.

The difficulty I have with picking the meltacide squad is that 104pts isn't a trivial amount in a 1750pt list. I've got to drop something to fit it in, but...what? More than likely it'd be a Melta-vet squad.

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Blaggard wrote:

However you'll have people with names beginning with P shouting for vendetta's and Vultures coming out of the wazoo.

It's not like one would be wrong to suggest Vendettas and Vultures.

They're two of IG's best units.

But why would anyone want to bring something just because it's the best unit in the codex?

Also, that guy whose name begins with P is really mean and keeps telling me my list is bad because I don't bring the best units in the codex.

No-ones replied to any of my lists for the past 4 months, the guy named P just happens to post about vendetta's in 8 posts out of 10.

I’ve been trying out new units for the last few months since I started fielding my IG army. During my last game I kept on getting disappointed as my LRBT I where running kept getting shaken or stunned one then the other each turn. I decided to really give a look at the techpriest since it’s a unit I haven’t put on the field yet thinking he might help but it seems he only works with destroyed weapons or being immobilized. Seems to be people just say to stick him and some servitors behind the tank to repair hull points but it seems like a big point sink for just one task. Any other tips on how to field the techpriest?

 Panzer1944 wrote:
Any other tips on how to field the techpriest?

Short answer: don't.

Long answer: you have roll 'immobilized' on a short-range tank or 'weapon destroyed' and lose the main gun to even have a relevant damage result to fix, you have to keep the techpriest within 6" at all times so it can immediately get into base contact to repair, and then you have to pass the repair roll. And even that doesn't get it working again immediately, you have to wait for the NEXT turn to do anything with the tank and hope it doesn't get destroyed by then. Once you include the cost of the servitors you need to make the repair roll reliable enough you're spending far too close to the cost of an entire additional tank for a situational repair option. That's not even close to worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Corollax wrote:
The only quibble I have with it is that I'm compromising the survivability of my Grey Hunter squad. Since my rationale in purchasing these drop pods was to get another scoring unit in the enemy's backfield, that's counter-productive.

The problem with the larger squad is it's still not all that survivable. You're dropping it unsupported into your opponent's backfield where there isn't really much else nearby for their objective holders to shoot at, and a 10-man marine squad is fairly easy to kill. Even with a comms relay you've still only got a 50% chance of holding them back, so you can't count on the rest of your army killing enough stuff to clear a safe (but still useful) arrival spot for them. Sure, sometimes it will work right and the extra bodies will make a difference, but do you really want to spend the points for a couple more AC Sabre guns on a situational upgrade?

Another thing to think about is that you have two troops slots, and getting two five-man squads with attached WG costs only a bit more than a ten-man squad and brings more special weapon shots (since you can't pod in WG with full 10-man GH squads). Two suicide squads is probably going to be a lot more useful than one more durable squad.

As for griffons, the main problem is that they don't handle tough targets. My local meta is seeing a lot of russes, AV13 necron spam, fliers, and terminators of several stripes. The griffon can't even hurt most of those targets, and those that they technically can, they're bad against. Furthermore, light targets are so easy to kill nowadays, that you don't really need specialized equipment to handle them most of the time, and if you're taking specialized equipment, you can do a lot better job with other units (colossuses, hellhounds, flamer stormies, etc.)

As for conscripts, with SitNW, they're a permanent scoring unit that get stronger when your opponent shoots at them. Far from worthless. The only problem is that the whole package deal can eat up points pretty quickly, especially at lower points level games.

As for foot guard... yeah. I spent the first 8 months of 6th edition trying every basic way of doing foot guard. Respawning conscripts, my stormie+duravet 100+ Sv4+ spam, al'rahem, PIS spam + russes and/or light vehicle support.

The end result? I'm playing mech now.

 Peregrine wrote:
Another thing to think about is that you have two troops slots, and getting two five-man squads with attached WG costs only a bit more than a ten-man squad and brings more special weapon shots (since you can't pod in WG with full 10-man GH squads). Two suicide squads is probably going to be a lot more useful than one more durable squad.

That would be a nice idea, except that you have to purchase at least 3 Wolf Guard at a time, and you can only put one Pack Leader in each squad. So then I've got at least one Wolf Guard with no place to go. I could buy a few more and give them a drop pod, too, but then I've got three melta suicide units. Two is quite enough, and I don't expect the first drop pod to survive long enough to score, anyway.

I did figure out that by using Elysians as my primary contingent, I could get both 3 Vultures and 3 Vendettas in my army. I had to squadron my Earthshaker Artillery Carriages and drop the Medusa, but I think the end result came out pretty well. I'll post the result in the Army List forum so as to not derail the current thread, but I'd appreciate any critique you have to offer.

Corollax wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Another thing to think about is that you have two troops slots, and getting two five-man squads with attached WG costs only a bit more than a ten-man squad and brings more special weapon shots (since you can't pod in WG with full 10-man GH squads). Two suicide squads is probably going to be a lot more useful than one more durable squad.

That would be a nice idea, except that you have to purchase at least 3 Wolf Guard at a time, and you can only put one Pack Leader in each squad. So at that point, we're talking about 3 units rather than 2.

But you're buying the WG squad anyway (since you said you have two pods). So you buy a three-man squad: one goes in GH squad #1, one goes in GH squad #2, the remaining one (and any extra models you want to add to the squad) is a separate squad.

Sorry, I was in the process of editing my post. (Please do check the link!) The short of it is that I don't see the rationale behind spending another 115 points that the FOC doesn't require me to spend. I would think that investing in a 3rd suicide squad would be detracting too many points away from my primary contingent (particularly when Grey Hunters, themselves, aren't a particularly efficient source of melta weaponry).

Corollax wrote:
Sorry, I was in the process of editing my post. (Please do check the link!) The short of it is that I don't see the rationale behind spending another 115 points that the FOC doesn't require me to spend. I would think that investing in a 3rd suicide squad would be detracting too many points away from my primary contingent (particularly when Grey Hunters, themselves, aren't a particularly efficient source of melta weaponry).

Taking a cheap allied list is certainly an option. What I meant was you have two good options: suicide melta GH with the remaining WG forming a second suicide melta unit to keep it cheap and efficient (and let you keep one pod in reserve), or two GH squads to get ten MEQs in a more efficient package. Taking a single squad of ten GH is the awkward middle ground between the two that has the drawbacks of higher point cost without the advantages of having an additional unit.


Edit: and with the SW out of your list I guess it's a bit less relevant, but IMO the principle stands as a general rule for any IG army that wants rune priests in their blobs.

Ahh, now I see what you were getting at. "If I wanted to buy 10 scoring models, I should make sure they're getting enough special weapons." You were just making sure I was getting firepower appropriate to the point cost.

Having a few marine models lets me change the dynamic of my list pretty easily, so I intend to get them either way. And if I'm going to have to pay a troop tax to get that Rune Priest, I rather like your first suggestion. It's certainly better than what I was doing before, so thanks!

 Peregrine wrote:

Corollax wrote:
Sorry, I was in the process of editing my post. (Please do check the link!) The short of it is that I don't see the rationale behind spending another 115 points that the FOC doesn't require me to spend. I would think that investing in a 3rd suicide squad would be detracting too many points away from my primary contingent (particularly when Grey Hunters, themselves, aren't a particularly efficient source of melta weaponry).

Taking a cheap allied list is certainly an option. What I meant was you have two good options: suicide melta GH with the remaining WG forming a second suicide melta unit to keep it cheap and efficient (and let you keep one pod in reserve), or two GH squads to get ten MEQs in a more efficient package. Taking a single squad of ten GH is the awkward middle ground between the two that has the drawbacks of higher point cost without the advantages of having an additional unit.


Edit: and with the SW out of your list I guess it's a bit less relevant, but IMO the principle stands as a general rule for any IG army that wants rune priests in their blobs.

I'm thinking of running a regular sm librarian as an ally in a blob. (I only have C:SM and ultramarines) I wanted to have him run force dome on a fat guard blob of 40+ with a bunch of meltas or plasma with a commisar and a trailing PCS for orders. The troops for the SM would probably just be a basic 5man tact with a melta in a pod as a little distraction. I figure it would be an interesting deathstar or even be more sneaky and have al arem sneak the whole thing on and really mess with my opponent. I haven't figured out if there was anything else i wanrted to take from SM other than maybe a TFC cannon for kicks and yet another template

I understand that you have to make do with what models and codices you have access to, but Space Wolves have much better librarians than generic marines.

If nothing else, Dark Angels will allow you to save 35 points on your librarian and 20 points on your tactical squad -- and their tactical squad can take a meltagun without buying 10 models in the squad.

generalchaos34 wrote:
(I only have C:SM and ultramarines)

Don't forget that painting means nothing. You can paint your models ultramarines blue and still use the SW rules and get their far superior rune priest (awesome psychic defense, access to divination, and better standard powers).

Well said. So at that point, the only real cost to switch is the new codex (which you should have anyway -- Know Your Enemy!)

Corollax wrote:
Well said. So at that point, the only real cost to switch is the new codex (which you should have anyway -- Know Your Enemy!)

excellent point...and i may actually have a space wolf model or 2 floating around. I just like the idea of a guaranteed 5++ on a 50 man squad, that would piss off anyone

generalchaos34 wrote:
excellent point...and i may actually have a space wolf model or 2 floating around. I just like the idea of a guaranteed 5++ on a 50 man squad, that would piss off anyone

A 5++ isn't all that impressive when standard cover also gives a 5++.

 Peregrine wrote:

generalchaos34 wrote:
excellent point...and i may actually have a space wolf model or 2 floating around. I just like the idea of a guaranteed 5++ on a 50 man squad, that would piss off anyone

A 5++ isn't all that impressive when standard cover also gives a 5++.

yeah, but i was thinking of the stupid suicide tactic of running them straight down the field with 2 demolishers coming up behind them (or in front) making the enemy have to deal with them instead of my artillery and long range guns

I would try to put them in front, but allow room for the lasguns to fire. (I can't remember if allied units block LoS)

If I was to run an infantry platoon, would it be worth it to put the squads in chimeras? Or should I only really be doing that with vets?

Gyrtop wrote:
I would try to put them in front, but allow room for the lasguns to fire. (I can't remember if allied units block LoS)

If I was to run an infantry platoon, would it be worth it to put the squads in chimeras? Or should I only really be doing that with vets?

No, PIS are not worth buying a chimera for. They get one special weapon at BS3, so it really doesn't work.

On the allies front, I have found BA assault marines to be excellent (at least in my local meta). I can have 2 melta guns that scatter 1d6, reroll failed reserve rolls and are space marines for somewhere in the ball park of 200 points.

Of course, if you're already bringing a comms relay for other reasons (such as getting your Vendettas in reliably, or delaying them until the enemy aircraft have presented themselves as a target), then any marine contingent will be able to reroll their reserve rolls.

And while a drop pod does have 2d6 scatter instead of 1d6, it reduces that scatter with the inertial guidance rule and allows a 6" disembark upon landing. So not only can you reduce your effective scatter, you also get to disperse your unit and render them less vulnerable to blast templates.

Corollax wrote:
Of course, if you're already bringing a comms relay for other reasons (such as getting your Vendettas in reliably, or delaying them until the enemy aircraft have presented themselves as a target), then any marine contingent will be able to reroll their reserve rolls.

And while a drop pod does have 2d6 scatter instead of 1d6, it reduces that scatter with the inertial guidance rule and allows a 6" disembark upon landing. So not only can you reduce your effective scatter, you also get to disperse your unit and render them less vulnerable to blast templates.

True, but for those who don't run Vendettas or who are on a budget, BA assault marines are not a terrible alternative.

Perhaps not -- but I still think Space Wolves come out better in the final analysis.

With suicide melta stormtroopers, do you have a squad of only 5 or a full 10 man squad?

Also is there any reason to leave a chimera with meltavets, flamer pcs etc? (Except to take objectives). You can just ride around in the Chimera firing out of the hatch right?

Why taking 10 suicide meltatroopers? It won't give you more melta shots.

If you use plasmatroopers , then it might be worth it.

foxyfennec wrote:

Also is there any reason to leave a chimera with meltavets, flamer pcs etc? (Except to take objectives). You can just ride around in the Chimera firing out of the hatch right?

As long as the chimera lasts it's best to stay inside. However, it probably won't last particularly long! So expect them to be walking at some point.

 Griddlelol wrote:

foxyfennec wrote:

Also is there any reason to leave a chimera with meltavets, flamer pcs etc? (Except to take objectives). You can just ride around in the Chimera firing out of the hatch right?

As long as the chimera lasts it's best to stay inside. However, it probably won't last particularly long! So expect them to be walking at some point.

Also, you would have to get out to claim an objective.

Buuut... on the contrary, spewing out possible 6-7 flamer templates a turn spells death for Orks & Nids.

Happygrunt wrote:No, PIS are not worth buying a chimera for. They get one special weapon at BS3, so it really doesn't work.

Not... always.

Yeah, buying a single chimera for a PIS is dumb. Platoons CAN work in part of a larger mech strategy. They're a cheaper way to get more chimeras for your AV12 wall, and they do help pile in more scoring units into an army type that can easily be lacking them. And, of course, al'rahem.

But if you're not going for a specific strategy with them, then yeah, leave the PISs on foot.

I´ve bought my first Valkyrie-kit today and until now im wondering if it is necessary to convert it into a Vendetta especially because the conversion kit from forge world is pretty expensive for 3 lascannons...... I have no experience with fliers whatsoever but don´t they have a very similar role?

No overlap in role other than troop transporting.

Don't use the forge world kit, it's overpriced for what you get. I just had lascannons from the guard HWT box and stuck them on. Or you can easily get lascannons from the HWT box from ebay for quite cheap - a hell of a lot cheaper than the FW kit.

Could always scratch build some lascannons. I used my extras for my first Vendetta, ran out of lascannons to fit the others.

Is the Valkyrie still a solid choice?

 Bobthehero wrote:
Is the Valkyrie still a solid choice?

It's alright compared to balanced units, but terrible compared to the Vendetta. Since it's so easy to convert a Vendetta once you have a Valkyrie kit there's really no reason to ever build one as a Valkyrie.

(Unless you're using the Elysian drop troops list.)

Don't have pieces to run it as a Vendetta, and I wouldn't want it, especially since my army shouldn't have a Valkyrie in the first place.

I am planning on allying Elysians, tho.

I would t worry about it Bob. For the time being I run two of mine weaponless. Until I find someone with some extra guard lascannons at my flgs I can purchase