Have never run IG before. Are there any tricks/tactics/tip for IG list building and running an IG army?

No. IG don't use tactics. They just put the models on the table and roll some dice and then the other player says if they won or not.

 Peregrine wrote:
No. IG don't use tactics. They just put the models on the table and roll some dice and then the other player says if they won or not.

This is sadly more true than most of us Guard players would like to admit.

In terms of actual tactics, this will boil down to whether you're using foot Guard or mech Guard. I can only really give advice for the latter. As simple and as stupid as this sounds, I have to say it: always make sure your front AV is facing the enemy. Deny side shots whenever possible, ESPECIALLY with Chimeras. This can mean not moving up much (or at all) with your transports in the first few turns. It's better to soften up the enemy from afar than just charging in.

A lot of hybrid players also like to bubble wrap their tanks with infantry to protect your shiny toys from assaults. This works really well and ensures your heavy hitters get a turn or 2 more of additional shooting, but I wouldn't call using this trick an utter necessity. If you're confident in your ability to keep your distance, then by all means.

A lot of the more aggressive Guard players also like to tank shock enemy infantry to bunch them up nicely for flame templates. I find using this trick to be EXTREMELY risky but it can pay dividends if that's the sort of player that you are. Also this has to be mentioned: refrain from disembarking your veterans unless you are absolutely sure they can't get shot at on your opponent's next turn. Their Chimera is their lifeline and you would do well to remember that.

You can get some tactics into your guard list if you put the right stuff in. Gunlines are not so much, but if you put stormtroopers in, for example, you'll have to actually think a little bit about where you want them to deepstrike. Likewise, if you have some amount of close combat power, deciding what the biggest threat to react to can sometimes be a little tactical.

But guard is mostly shooting, and shooting is pretty easy. You just sort of point at the thing that makes most sense to die and then you roll dice.

A wall of 9 Leman Russes, cheap and front AV 14.

Throw in some executioners and watch even cheap horde armies cry in despair.

Really it's target priority. Know what to shoot, when to shoot it, and with what weapon.

For example, pop transports with autocannons or Heavy weapons, then use either artillary or the trusty leman russ battle tank to cast " AP 3 Large blast" on the infantry which were riding in side.

If you get target priority down, half the battle is already won.

General tips I've found that came in handy.

1. Everything should be expendable. If you've spent so many points on something that you hesitate to sacrifice it for victory, you spent too much on it. Keep em cheap, keep em killy. When your opponent kills a unit you have, your reaction should be a shrug of indifference, not a "holy crap that was my only anti terminator unit!".

2. If it's an upgrade and it's not a gun, it's probably not worth taking (regimental standards are the exception.)

3. Always, always, ALWAYS, have multiple ways to deal with a threat. A single unit covering anti tank is doomed to whiff horribly. 5 though? Not so much. Because the first unit will die horribly, the second will whiff horribly, and the 3rd has a 50/50 chance of succeeding.

4. Redundancy, Redundancy, Redundancy (see number 3.)

5. Guardsmen are all crosseyed, mentally slowed, and can barely remember which end of the lasgun to point at the enemy. Plan for the worst, and hope for the best, because Emperor help the little guys, they will time and again find new ways to surprise you with their failures. Don't believe me? Read Ailaros's battle reports. He's pretty much seen every ridiculously bad roll you can imagine. Always have a backup plan.

6. If it's worth bringing one of, it's worth bringing 3 of. Since our stuff is cheap and (usually) dies easily, any unit that is good is worth bringing multiples of, if only to guarantee results. (See Number 4)

Hope those help. Those are tips that I've found were always relevant, no matter what list I wrote.

Oh yeah, redundancy is key. I find that at least three of anything I bring will die horribly, but whatever still survives can roll around and stomp face as the end of the game gets closer simply because the enemy doesn't have any firepower left.

Still having a vetran squad, demolisher and a LRBT on the table turn 4 is great when your opponent only has a marine squad and a half left

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
4. Redundancy, Redundancy, Redundancy (see number 3.)

If your opponents aren't whining and crying about spam then you aren't bringing enough redundancy.

Turn 1: Sit still, shoot, don't assault, end turn.

Turn 2+: Roll for reserves, sit still, shoot, don't assault, end turn.

Also don't forget Marbo.
Guaranteed to blow something up in the turn that he arrives.
Results can vary from himself, to friendly tanks, to a single termagaunt, to enemy commanders and tanks.

The trick is, like said before, that you know where to deploy him and where to throw your democharge.

Besides that, he is also fun to use.

To start building your list, a company command squad, a platoon command squad, 2 infantry squads, and a veteran squad. Proxy a chimera or two for your first few games before committing. You don't want to be buying four chimera and realise you love foot horde.

Mech is simple, lots of veterans with lots of guns in chimera. Scoot about like you own the place and if anyone says otherwise, fry 'em.

Hammer and Anvil is a hybrid style which combines mech and gun-line. You have the big guns sat in your deployment providing cover fire for mechanised elements.

Air-cav is the same as mech but with vendetta and valks.

Gun-line is to stock up on firepower, sit back and let the good times roll. Until they reach you of course. The game requires a lot of target priority decisions.

Those are the main structures of Guard you'll see kicking around but there are others. I saw a pretty nifty army theme on Russia in stalingrad. Lots of artillery and lots of infantry with nothing but there boots and flashlights.

Sws with flamers out of sight as countercharge units, conscripts and chenkov, most guard tactics revolve around maximising firepower output while waiting for people to assult and countering it well as far as i can see.

Moustaffa said it, redundancy: give oh-so many target to your opponenet, that evne if he does kill that vet unit or that CCS plasmagun, you still got 2+ of every kind.

Do buy:
Plasmaguns
Meltaguns
Lascannons
Autocannons
Medusas
Vendettas
Sabres
Vultures
Chimeras

Don't buy:
Ratlings
Ogryn
Psyker Battle Squads
Marbo
Grenade Launchers
Heavy Bolters
Most of the Leman Russ Variants (LRBT, Executioner, and Demolisher are really the only feasible ones.)
Medipacks
Carapace Armor
Special/Heavy Weapon Squads
Sentinels
Commissars


Everything else is a toss up, and depends on your list.

I've noticed a problem with your list captain. You put Marbo in the dont buy section. Care to explain?

Because I'm to the point where he's pretty much mandatory in any list i make above 1k pts. He's just really handy in pretty much any matchup.

 TheCaptain wrote:
Do buy:
Plasmaguns
Meltaguns
Lascannons
Autocannons
Vendettas
Chimeras
Marbo
Most of the Leman Russ Variants (LRBT, Executioner, and Demolisher are really the only feasible ones.)
Commissars
Regimental Advisors
Manticores
Storm Troopers

Don't buy:
Ratlings
Ogryn
Psyker Battle Squads
Grenade Launchers
Heavy Bolters
Medipacks
Carapace Armor
Special/Heavy Weapon Squads
Sentinels
Anything Forgeworld

Everything else is a toss up, and depends on your list.

Fixed. Forgeworld stuff is not for beginners. And many players still frown on seeing it on the table, since it isn't truly balanced for 40k. The Vulture, for example, is ridiculous. Marbo is awesome, and adds so much fun to the game. Plus, he really can be a game changer. Sometimes. Other times not so much. But totally worth it in your mostly unused elite slots for only 65 points. The Manticore rules. If nothing else, it creates a huge target priority for your opponent. All of the Russ Variants, except the Vanquisher, have their place. I tend to only use the LRBT because my heavy support slots are so precious, and the basic Russ provides the most options. Commissars are still useful, and necessary if you are going to combine your squads. Often your large squads are near the table edge, you do not want them running off to oblivion.

 beerbeard wrote:
Forgeworld stuff is not for beginners.

Why not? That makes about as much sense as saying orks aren't for beginners. Models are models, and FW models are certainly easier to build than finecast.

And many players still frown on seeing it on the table, since it isn't truly balanced for 40k.

Wrong.

The Vulture, for example, is ridiculous.

Yeah, I admit it's pretty ridiculous. It's almost as good as a Vendetta!

looking at your list, you must do the ol' predictable Melta/plasma vets in chimeras/vendettas, alpha Strike and all.

Grenade launchers are things to get at any rate, cheap crowd control

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I've noticed a problem with your list captain. You put Marbo in the dont buy section. Care to explain?

Because I'm to the point where he's pretty much mandatory in any list i make above 1k pts. He's just really handy in pretty much any matchup.

Don't forget: he's Marbo.

I played a game with him the other day. He threw his detpack at a 10 chaos space marine tactical squad, missed. The marines shot pistols and charged on their turn, but between cover and Feel no pain he survived the shooting phase. Now, in the new chaos dex, the chaos sargent had to challenge. Marbo won. The marine squad failed leadership and then Marbo swept the entire tactical squad.

There were many middle fingers thrown at marbo for the rest of the game. He easily passed his "don't give a crap" save.

Edit: Why did I type feel no pain? Why?

Alrihem outflanking special weapon squads with demo charges plus an astropath plus using lots of large blast tends to annoy the hell out of your opponent, as well as being effective.

MrMoustaffa wrote:I've noticed a problem with your list captain. You put Marbo in the dont buy section. Care to explain?

Because I'm to the point where he's pretty much mandatory in any list i make above 1k pts. He's just really handy in pretty much any matchup.

I find him the most unpredictable 65 points you can spend, and essentially a free KP. Melta/plasmastormies are more reliable, and get more done, IMHO.

beerbeard wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

Spoiler:

Do buy:
Plasmaguns
Meltaguns
Lascannons
Autocannons
Vendettas
Chimeras
Marbo
Most of the Leman Russ Variants (LRBT, Executioner, and Demolisher are really the only feasible ones.)
Commissars
Regimental Advisors
Manticores
Storm Troopers

Don't buy:
Ratlings
Ogryn
Psyker Battle Squads
Grenade Launchers
Heavy Bolters
Medipacks
Carapace Armor
Special/Heavy Weapon Squads
Sentinels
Anything Forgeworld

Everything else is a toss up, and depends on your list.

Fixed. Forgeworld stuff is not for beginners. And many players still frown on seeing it on the table, since it isn't truly balanced for 40k. The Vulture, for example, is ridiculous. Marbo is awesome, and adds so much fun to the game. Plus, he really can be a game changer. Sometimes. Other times not so much. But totally worth it in your mostly unused elite slots for only 65 points. The Manticore rules. If nothing else, it creates a huge target priority for your opponent. All of the Russ Variants, except the Vanquisher, have their place. I tend to only use the LRBT because my heavy support slots are so precious, and the basic Russ provides the most options. Commissars are still useful, and necessary if you are going to combine your squads. Often your large squads are near the table edge, you do not want them running off to oblivion.

Well stop right there; firstly, editing someone's list because you think they are wrong is rude, assuming, and is putting words in their mouth. Wrong words, at that. FW stuff is for everyone. The players that frown upon it don't know what they're talking about (like you seem to). It is balanced for 40k, GW approved, and totally fair. The vulture, for example, is anything but ridiculous. It is on par, if not slightly lesser than the Vendetta.

Marbo isn't that awesome. He's a toy unit that does something silly, and doesn't really get anything done. All the Russ Variants have their place, including the Vanquisher. They're just not worth it. Commissars aren't useful, nor necessary if you're going to combine squads. Get a Standard.

And the Regimental Advisors are list-specific. I hardly would think them in the "Must buy" area of the codex.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:looking at your list, you must do the ol' predictable Melta/plasma vets in chimeras/vendettas, alpha Strike and all.

Grenade launchers are things to get at any rate, cheap crowd control

No. I run gunline and Aircav. I own one chimera, and it houses my CCS. And you say "ol' predictable" as if Leafblower is a bad thing. It crushes most lists; only prediction available is that the opponent is in for a rough fight.

And grenade launchers are awful. Waste of a Special Weapon slot.

 TheCaptain wrote:
Marbo isn't that awesome. He's a toy unit that does something silly, and doesn't really get anything done.

You must just have bad dice. Marbo is very good at getting things done, he arrives with no scatter, and then he gives you a BS 5 demo charge. Unless your dice hate you Marbo is going to kill something important, and that something probably cost a lot more points. I know I'll gladly give up 65 points and a kill point (in one of six missions) to kill or cripple those long fangs/terminators/etc.

Commissars aren't useful, nor necessary if you're going to combine squads. Get a Standard.

Not true. Standards aren't bad, but they don't give you Stubborn, the thing that makes blob squads work. A platoon with a CCS + standard nearby might not run away easily from shooting, but once they get assaulted the unit is gone. Re-rolls don't help when you're at LD 0 because of casualties, you need that commissar to keep your squad at LD 9.

And grenade launchers are awful. Waste of a Special Weapon slot.

This. Never, under any circumstances, take grenade launchers. Even if you don't have points for a good weapon a flamer will suck less.

I disagree about the vanquisher. The only viable target I see for that tank is stuff with AV 14, and I think there are only three vehicles in the entire game that have that armor. It's literally too many points to do only one thing, and even then, only half the time it works, and that's before you factor in cover.

Plus, if it does work: Congratulations! Now the really expensive tank gets to sit around and do diddly for the rest of the game.

If anything, I've found that Marbo is more reliable than a bunch of stormtroopers.

Exhibit A)
You just place him on the board near an enemy unit. No deepstriking mishaps, no landing outside of melta range. He's just appears.

Exhibit B)
His template his AP 2 and is thrown at Ballistic skill 5. I've had my fair share of bad whiffs with the detpack, but it gives options. Do I throw marbo at his backfeild unit and blast them off the objective? Or do I need to put some hurt on terminators? He's versatile in the good sense. The versatility that comes with a low AP and a Large blast template.

Exhibit C)
He's not ignoble after he uses his detpack. See that nice AP 2 pistol at BS 5? See those melta bombs? See those 5 attacks on the charge that wound on a 2+? Ignore him and I'll be sticking melta bombs on your armor in the backfield willy-nilly. Or maybe I'll just stick him in ruins for that stealth save and threaten to get linebreaker. By this point, I don't care, because if you're shooting at Marbo (who's probably already done enough damage with the detpack), it means you're not shooting at something more valuable, like a troops choice.

I agree that stormtroopers are awesome, but they can't bring all that to the table in 65 points.

I think everyone overlooks the fact that stormtroopers can shoot on equal terms with marines and also get delivery options. A unit of stormtroopers with some plasma guns can be a fairly tough nut to crack in an army where the infantry is mainly cannon fodder. I've had some looks of amazment from marine players when they watch a tactical squad get decimated because i've infiltrated into cover and held them up. They send a unit to deal with them only to find out that the troopers can hold their own even without special weapons. Average price of a storm trooper - 16/17pts, Average price of a space marine - 16/18pts.

10 storm troopers
10 shots
6.66 hits
2.22 wounds
No armour save 2.22 kills against marines

10 marines
10 shots
6.66 hits
4.44 wounds
2.22 failed armour saves against troopers

 kestril wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I've noticed a problem with your list captain. You put Marbo in the dont buy section. Care to explain?

Because I'm to the point where he's pretty much mandatory in any list i make above 1k pts. He's just really handy in pretty much any matchup.

Don't forget: he's Marbo.

I played a game with him the other day. He threw his detpack at a 10 chaos space marine tactical squad, missed. The marines shot pistols and charged on their turn, but between cover and Feel no pain he survived the shooting phase. Now, in the new chaos dex, the chaos sargent had to challenge. Marbo won. The marine squad failed leadership and then Marbo swept the entire tactical squad.

There were many middle fingers thrown at marbo for the rest of the game. He easily passed his "don't give a crap" save.

EPIC!

 Deceiver wrote:
I think everyone overlooks the fact that stormtroopers can shoot on equal terms with marines and also get delivery options. A unit of stormtroopers with some plasma guns can be a fairly tough nut to crack in an army where the infantry is mainly cannon fodder. I've had some looks of amazment from marine players when they watch a tactical squad get decimated because i've infiltrated into cover and held them up. They send a unit to deal with them only to find out that the troopers can hold their own even without special weapons. Average price of a storm trooper - 16/17pts, Average price of a space marine - 16/18pts.

10 storm troopers
10 shots
6.66 hits
2.22 wounds
No armour save 2.22 kills against marines

10 marines
10 shots
6.66 hits
4.44 wounds
2.22 failed armour saves against troopers

Except that the Marines have a whole 6" on the storm troopers. Also in assault things change drastically.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Deceiver wrote:
I think everyone overlooks the fact that stormtroopers can shoot on equal terms with marines and also get delivery options. A unit of stormtroopers with some plasma guns can be a fairly tough nut to crack in an army where the infantry is mainly cannon fodder. I've had some looks of amazment from marine players when they watch a tactical squad get decimated because i've infiltrated into cover and held them up. They send a unit to deal with them only to find out that the troopers can hold their own even without special weapons. Average price of a storm trooper - 16/17pts, Average price of a space marine - 16/18pts.

10 storm troopers
10 shots
6.66 hits
2.22 wounds
No armour save 2.22 kills against marines

10 marines
10 shots
6.66 hits
4.44 wounds
2.22 failed armour saves against troopers

Except that the Marines have a whole 6" on the storm troopers. Also in assault things change drastically.

Stormies can deep strike, and double special weapons.

TheCaptain wrote:Don't buy:
Ratlings
Ogryn
Psyker Battle Squads
Marbo
Grenade Launchers
Heavy Bolters
Most of the Leman Russ Variants (LRBT, Executioner, and Demolisher are really the only feasible ones.)
Medipacks
Carapace Armor
Special/Heavy Weapon Squads
Sentinels
Commissars

Umm... Yeah.

I can see uses for some of these if you build your list for them (especially ogryn and carapace), but otherwise...

Oh, and I agree, marbo is one of the most overrated things in the codex.

Peregrine wrote:

And many players still frown on seeing it on the table, since it isn't truly balanced for 40k.

Wrong.

Nope. He's right.

Deceiver wrote:Hammer and Anvil is a hybrid style which combines mech and gun-line. You have the big guns sat in your deployment providing cover fire for mechanised elements.

I've been doing the same kind of thing recently, but offensively, rather than defensively. In this case, instead of hammer and anvil, it's sword and dagger. You have the stuff that you deploy make up the bulk of your points, and set it up in such a way where they have a lot of power that they can use to press in on the enemy (I use foot lists, but you could easily accomplish this with a chimera charge), while the "dagger" units show up from behind and stab your opponents in the objectives. I like deepstriking stormtroopers (especially the flamer variety), but there are plenty of other ways to go about it.

MrMoustaffa wrote:If it's worth bringing one of, it's worth bringing three of.

As far as I'm concerned, this should be the official motto of the imperial guard.

 Ailaros wrote:

Peregrine wrote:

And many players still frown on seeing it on the table, since it isn't truly balanced for 40k.

Wrong.

Nope. He's right.

Well then nothing is balanced for 40k, since FW rules are just as balanced as anything else GW produces.

 TheCaptain wrote:


Stormies can deep strike, and double special weapons.

Marines have ATSKNF, combat tactics and combat squads, can take heavy weapons and can score.
This is a pointless divergence, my initial response was more complaining that storm troopers have 18" rage weapon which I why I can't stand them. A rile that has a shorter rapid fire range than a land raider hull? Pretty silly.

Getting back on topic, these are a few final tips I would give the OP.

1.Meltas, plasmas, autocannons, and lascannons are worth their weight in gold on your infantry. Learn how to convert them or pick em up from bitz sellers, but make sure you have a healthy amount of all 4. They are what makes our infantry scary to other armies, because even though lasguns can pick up the odd wound, usually only conscripts are putting out enough shots to guarantee results.

2. Start off small, IG is a very confusing army at first glance, ESPECIALLY if you're running platoons. Keep your games under 1k for a while and learn the in's and outs of your army. Remember things like orders (move, orders, shoot, assault. Say that until you know it by heart) 2" spacing, bubble wrapping tanks, and keeping your front armor facing the enemy at all times. big games have a lot going on and its all too easy to just sit there and roll dice until its over with, and you wont learn anything from that.

3. Finally, try every unit in the codex at least once, even if it's just in a friendly game. You never know what might be the perfect unit for your strategy may be, and you'll never know until you give them a shot. Some things are obviously trash (ratlings for example) but until you use them. you'll never know. Several things that IG players would have laughed at last edition are really good now, and we would have never found out if we hadnt messed around and tried new units out.

I find it funny that people look down on Grenade Launchers and Heavy Bolters. I've had nothing but success with both weapons, and find them invaluable for armor save attrition and light vehicle hunting.

To the OP: The Imperial Guard can be one of the most diverse armies in Warhammer 40k, and the further that you get from the power units, the more involved that your strategy will become. They are a shooting army (Guard have some truly dire close combat obtions available to them), so they can easily conform to a static, gunline type army. On the other hand, they also have access to a tremendous amount of transports (not to mention what is arguably the best flyer in the game), so they can also be played as a highly mobile force.

Honestly, MrMoustaffa's list of tips really do have the right of it. Don't be afraid to try out different units or different builds, even if people insist that those options are "bad." You'll figure out pretty quickly what works for you and what doesn't, and when you do, you'll be able to carve out your own particular variation on the Imperial Guard.

That's kind of the point, to make things just imbalanced enough to create a meta game, but if something is so overpowered, it becomes a no-brainer choice to auto-take and the metagame becomes much more shallow.


But w/e

Back to the topic:

Yea, weapons weapons weapons. Try them all out and see what works for you and your current models.

I really like tanks, thus that is the main reason for chosing to start an IG army. I would like to run an all mech army. Any suggestions or pointers for that?

I generated a 2000 list that consists of 2 CCS, 1 Psyker Battle Squad, Veterans, PCS and IS. Each unit is in a Chimera for a total of 8 Chimeras, 3 Vendettas, and 3 Griffons.

Based on the previous posts, I may take out the PBS due to the fact I won't have 3.

Thoughts?

 amrogers3 wrote:
I really like tanks, thus that is the main reason for chosing to start an IG army. I would like to run an all mech army. Any suggestions or pointers for that?

I generated a 2000 list that consists of 2 CCS, 1 Psyker Battle Squad, Veterans, PCS and IS. Each unit is in a Chimera for a total of 8 Chimeras, 3 Vendettas, and 3 Griffons.

Based on the previous posts, I may take out the PBS due to the fact I won't have 3.

Thoughts?

That just made my day.

You have learned well, grasshopper.

Obviously, you don't HAVE to take 3 of everything, but it certainly helps. 3 pysker battle squads would probably be a bit overkill for example.

Also, kind of curious, but how do you only have 8 chimeras at 2k? I would think with a platoon thrown in you could get much higher. Do you have a few vet squads riding in the vendettas OP? That would make sense.

I play foot guard so I cant help you much with all Mech.

just send in wave after wave of expendable infantry supported by artillery (not manticores, way too unpredictable, basilisks/griffons/hydras instead) then veterans with plasma and/or meltas in valkyrie/vendetta gunships. its a common tactic and someones bound to say something about that but if its not broke then dont fix it.....

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


Also, kind of curious, but how do you only have 8 chimeras at 2k? I would think with a platoon thrown in you could get much higher. Do you have a few vet squads riding in the vendettas OP? That would make sense.

Yes, I have several Vet squads in Chimeras with Melta/plas, I can't remember which. I think melta.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:


Also, kind of curious, but how do you only have 8 chimeras at 2k?

This could also become the motto of the Imperial Guard.

 amrogers3 wrote:

Based on the previous posts, I may take out the PBS due to the fact I won't have 3.

This guy gets it.

I'm actually surprised to see peoople saying that you shouldn't take Marbo. If I may ask, could you please tell us why?

People either love him or hate him. He can do insane damage, or whiff terribly. Smart placement fixes this most of the time, but like everything else in this game, your dice will do everything in their power to screw you over at times.

Most players have a well earned hatred for him, as it seems like every player has that one story where he popped up and kicked some faces in. He forces your opponent to have to deploy differently, hide his important upgrades in the center of squads, or accept the fact that no matter what he does, something is about to have a really bad day. The fact that he remains a threat after that demo charge is chucked also can disrupt your opponent's following shooting phase as well. He can draw insane amounts of fire, especially for what's essentially a really scary guardsman.

Unless you face opponents who are very used to fighting IG, or are IG players themselves, you can't go wrong with him. He takes some practice, but i'd say he's worth it. Even against people that are used to fighting him, he can still do damage. Basically, give him a try. He's hilarious to use, Rambo incarnate, and cheap to add to an army (as you only need one guardsman model). Try him out sometime.

Marbo is even better in 6th edition than he was in 5th, and he was crazy good in 5th. He is a denial unit, which means he gives you Linebreaker, as well as contesting an objective. Since he has stealth, you can bring him on the board in cover, way back there in the corner, and just smile as your opponent has to bring part of his offensive output to bear on a 65 point guardsmen hiding in the bushes with his face painted. And he will still have his demo charge, in case someone is foolish enough to get close. It's not as glorious as the suicide demo heave, but it can be a very effective strategy.

Finally, you will see a lot of people running the numbers on him. Numbers matter, a lot, just ask Nate Silver, but a lot of 40k is psychological. Marbo is one of the ultimate psychological weapons. I've run across very few players who just ignore him.

loner wrote:I'm actually surprised to see peoople saying that you shouldn't take Marbo. If I may ask, could you please tell us why?

Because a vast majority of the time, you're spending 65 points for what basically amounts to a single earthshaker cannon shot. Really, you're wasting an elites slot on a heavy support choice, and you're doing it rather poorly, as he's pretty expensive for one shot. If what you want is that specific kind of pie plates, just take a medusa. For only twice as expensive, you get a lot more shots, and the option to be REALLY good against vehicles.

Secondly, most opponents will figure marbo out pretty quickly. They're only going to need to be surprised roughly once to figure out how to keep their troops spread out and in cover. Once that happens, marbo's offensive effectiveness plummets.

Strategically, he's not all that great either. Yes, he can show up and claim linebreaker, but if that's what's going to get you the win, then your opponent will kill him. Likewise, he's capable of contesting an objective, for basically one turn. He's just a guardsman. He's not that difficult to kill. He's not scoring either, so it's not like he's really having much of an impact other than by what he kills. Worse, on 1/6th of the missions, he's basically giving away free KP.

Marbo is over rated because everybody remembers those one or two times when he showed up and was exceedingly awesome, and then forget all of the other times he shows up and is a waste of points. He's worth including for rule of cool, but not much else.

 Ailaros wrote:
Marbo is over rated because everybody remembers those one or two times when he showed up and was exceedingly awesome, and then forget all of the other times he shows up and is a waste of points. He's worth including for rule of cool, but not much else.

While I do agree that Marbo is somewhat overrated, I think that you're selling him a little bit short. In the hands of an experienced player, Marbo has tremendous potential to function as a spoiler. Has your opponent advanced too far from their own lines? Then he scores you an easy VP as a linebreaker by hiding in cover. Lightly armored scoring unit holding an objective? He can contest or try to steal it from them outright with a combination of his demo charge and decent assault profile (though Overwatch makes this a bit riskier in 5th). Enemy power armor (or lighter) squad just deep struck in a threatening position? If Marbo shows up on your next turn, he can deal with them immediately.

I'm not going to pretend that he's always a reliable unit, or that he'll consitently win the game for you. But if you're aware of what he can do, you'll usually find a good place on the table from which he can make up his points and then some. The fact that he's an Elite choice, which is a classification at which the Imperial Guard is pretty thin on worthwhile units, just makes him easier to slip into the Force Organization Chart. While he's not an auto-take, I'd say that he has value beyond the rule of cool, and is never a waste of points.

Ailaros wrote:
Marbo is over rated because everybody remembers those one or two times when he showed up and was exceedingly awesome, and then forget all of the other times he shows up and is a waste of points. He's worth including for rule of cool, but not much else.

This is the cold hard truth.

beerbeard wrote:Numbers matter, a lot, just ask Nate Silver, but a lot of 40k is psychological. Marbo is one of the ultimate psychological weapons.

No good player is going to be psychologically affected by anything you throw at them.

SkaerKrow wrote:In the hands of an experienced player, Marbo has tremendous potential to function as a spoiler.

Its moreso "in the hands of a player versus someone who has never seen Marbo used."

After you are Marbo'd once, you learn.

 TheCaptain wrote:


This is the cold hard truth.

It's funny how Marbo can take over any discussion about the IG. Everything everyone writes here is opinion, not the absolute, or should I say, "cold hard" truth. A lot of good players will tell you Marbo is a waste. A lot of other good players will tell you he is an automatic include in your list. Ultimately, YMMV. When I write a list, I put him in, and then at the end if I need points for that last autocannon or two, I consider taking him out if I think his points will be better spent elsewhere. Most of the time he stays in, and I am usually glad he did. The only auto-include is when I do one of my crazy outflanking lists with Harker, Al-Raheem, etc.

 beerbeard wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:


This is the cold hard truth.

It's funny how Marbo can take over any discussion about the IG. Everything everyone writes here is opinion, not the absolute, or should I say, "cold hard" truth.

I'm inclined to say that "Its silly to auto include Marbo" is cold hard truth.

Like Ailaros said, if you have around 150 points; Buy a heavy support choice. Don't buy Marbo, then figure out what junk to spend the other 90 points on.

I figure marbo is a points filler. Like:

"Okay, I've got a 1795 point list for this 1850 game. What can I use it on...

Oh, why not a deep striking demo charge?"

SkaerKrow wrote:In the hands of an experienced player, Marbo has tremendous potential to function as a spoiler.

Well, see, here's the problem.

The ability for marbo to be used to his maximum potential is determined by my player skill, but the ceiling for that maximum potential is determined by my opponent's player skill. This is true for basically everything, but in the case of marbo, it hurts more than most other units in the codex.

If my opponent is a putz, and clusters his troops together out in the open, then the maximum potential is really high. If my opponent is smart, he can present no good targets for marbo. No matter how high my player skill, my opponent has determined the maximum possible utility of marbo to be at a pretty low level. No matter how skilled I am, marbo is never going to do good damage against units that my opponent has properly displaced and put in cover.

Of course, the same can be said about artillery, but artillery has ways of mitigating this, like with the colossus ignoring cover and with the medusa being able to basically pen with each hit against a vehicle.

Marbo, on the other hand, is just stuck.

Marbo has only ever whiffed for me. I see him as a liability on KP missions (guard already gives up KP too easily). I have never experienced an epic moment where he was actually Rambo. He usually has his demo pack scatter right back onto himself.

If I had 65 points to spare I would rather find another 10 and field a griffon. Or even a mortar squad for 5 points less.

 Ailaros wrote:
Because a vast majority of the time, you're spending 65 points for what basically amounts to a single earthshaker cannon shot.

Except it's a single shot with AP 2, a guarantee that it arrives being shot at before it can fire, and BS 5 to make sure it lands on target. And even if it is only an earthshaker shot the Basilisk would have to fire three times to be more effective at delivering earthshaker shots (even ignoring the BS difference), and if your AV 12 open-topped vehicle dies before then it won't beat Marbo.

Secondly, most opponents will figure marbo out pretty quickly. They're only going to need to be surprised roughly once to figure out how to keep their troops spread out and in cover. Once that happens, marbo's offensive effectiveness plummets.

That was a decent counter in 5th with per-unit cover, but not in 6th with per-model cover. Sure you can make that demo charge weaker by deploying at maximum 2" coherency, but can you keep your entire unit in cover, or are you going to have to have models spread out away from the cover where I can focus fire on them? You counter Marbo, but only at the cost of badly deploying every single vulnerable unit in your list to ensure that Marbo can't kill it. I think that's worth 65 points.

And of course this plan only works with area terrain. Against something like an aegis line Marbo just shows up behind the cover and laughs at it.

Marbo is over rated because everybody remembers those one or two times when he showed up and was exceedingly awesome, and then forget all of the other times he shows up and is a waste of points.

It's way better than "one or two times". In my experience Marbo is at least 50/50 on killing enough to justify a mere 65 points.

A plus for marbo is that he costs next to nothing to scratch build where as tanks and artillery will run you a lot of cold hard cash. For those interested in saving dollars for a really cool demo charge what's the harm in that. Granted he is hit and miss but times that I have hit have far out weighted his wasted games. He can't be ignored and that is one enemy unit that is not shooting at my other tanks. Sometimes even more than one unit as I am usually gaining a 3+ cover minimum.

I do agree with you Ailaros but he does have his uses especially in a fun setting so depending on the type of player you are and what type of game you are playing he can be worth the mere 65pts to have some fun.

Quick question, what is the best you have done with a Marbo Demo charge. I took out a 200+ point sanguinar unit. from on top of a ruin. Then had a unit try to assault me and couldn't make it up to the top. Then proceeded to move out the next turn and melta bomb a vindicator. He died in the explosion but it was a good death.

Peregrine wrote:Except it's a single shot with AP 2, a guarantee that it arrives being shot at before it can fire, and BS 5 to make sure it lands on target.

Still counts as "basically amounts". Not exactly the same, but still mostly the same.

Peregrine wrote:You counter Marbo, but only at the cost of badly deploying every single vulnerable unit in your list to ensure that Marbo can't kill it. I think that's worth 65 points.

You don't need to badly deploy to counter marbo.

Even with focus fire, you're still killing only a couple models, and even then, that's when you hit, which BS5 does not guarantee.

With its single shot.

Peregrine wrote:It's way better than "one or two times". In my experience Marbo is at least 50/50 on killing enough to justify a mere 65 points.

Congratulations on being lucky with marbo.

For the rest of us, he's expensive, doesn't do much against smart opponents, and doesn't have much of a strategic impact.

skycapt44 wrote:A plus for marbo is that he costs next to nothing to scratch build

This is certainly true. That or just borrow a catachan model.

skycapt44 wrote:Quick question, what is the best you have done with a Marbo Demo charge. I took out a 200+ point sanguinar unit. from on top of a ruin. Then had a unit try to assault me and couldn't make it up to the top. Then proceeded to move out the next turn and melta bomb a vindicator. He died in the explosion but it was a good death.

Or, as I like to say...

Ailaros wrote:Marbo is over rated because everybody remembers those one or two times when he showed up and was exceedingly awesome, and then forget all of the other times he shows up and is a waste of points. He's worth including for rule of cool, but not much else.

 Ailaros wrote:
You don't need to badly deploy to counter marbo.

Even with focus fire, you're still killing only a couple models, and even then, that's when you hit, which BS5 does not guarantee.

With its single shot.

You misunderstand. I'm talking about focus fire with other units. To counter Marbo you have to deploy at maximum coherency and probably not make full use of cover with all of your units. If you don't spread everything out Marbo arrives and finds a good target. It might not be my first choice of squad to kill, but it's probably going to be enough to justify Marbo's low point cost. And if you DO deny Marbo a good target I drive my plasma vets over and focus fire on anyone that's out of cover, then repeat it with all of your other squads. By deploying to counter Marbo you might make the demo charge less effective, but you're paying for it by giving up a lot of cover saves.

Most of the time I see Marbo being used as a lone wolf, showing up in an enemy backfield with his backside hanging in the wind.

Good player will deploy Marbo in conjunction with outflanking, zooming flyers, DSing stormtroopers, etc.. When you do this you make him even more dangerous as it gives your opponent some serious choices to make even after Marbo chucks the demo charge. He still has 5+ atttacks which wound on 2+ and melta bombs. Oh yeah an AP2 pistol.

That being said I really dont take him any more. I can get a Griffon for nearly the same points or a mortar squad with 5 pts leftover. He's a fun,. frustrating unit but not something that has to be in your list.

The big reason I always recommend him to new guys though is because he's dirt cheap ($$$ wise) to make, and for a new player, that's huge. All it takes is a cool looking conversion on a normal guardsmen, and bam, you've got a Marbo.

He's a good force multiplier, and gives you something in the backfield, something new players often times desperately need, since most can't afford stormtroopers or vendetta dropped vets starting out.

He's the easiest thing to add to a starting army, and without a doubt, can be incredibly useful if you use him right. Therefore, I recommend him to new guys, if only to show how handy having units in your opponent's back field can be.

Peregrine wrote:To counter Marbo you have to deploy at maximum coherency and probably not make full use of cover with all of your units. If you don't spread everything out Marbo arrives and finds a good target. It might not be my first choice of squad to kill, but it's probably going to be enough to justify Marbo's low point cost. And if you DO deny Marbo a good target I drive my plasma vets over and focus fire on anyone that's out of cover, then repeat it with all of your other squads

But artillery can do this better. Arguably so can flamer stormies, what with being able to ignore cover saves.

Of course, Moustaffa is right, he does give you these kinds of advantages for insanely cheap modelling-wise, if not points-wise. It would be better to have marbo than NOTHING that fills this role. As a player acquires a larger model base to choose from, he can start to get phased out.

 Ailaros wrote:

But artillery can do this better. Arguably so can flamer stormies, what with being able to ignore cover saves.

But they can't do it cheaper. And I'd say a 5 man flamer stormtrooper squad couldn't, just because flamer stormtroopers can't deal with 2+ save, may scatter out of flamer range, and may mishap, among other things, and I'm even fond of running deepstriking flamers.

Also, when your opponent fires at marbo, it means your opponent is not shooting at a more valuable target. The thing about marbo is that he's so killy, even without his detpack, your opponent has to inefficiently divert some firepower to take him out. He will die, the point is to make your opponent waste firepower.

Furthermore, Marbo is brutally efficient. He just has 65 points to make back and has all the tools to do it, and if he gets ignored, well, he's still got an AP 2 pistol to take down a terminator or two.

I don't take Marbo because of that one time where he's, well, marbo, I take him because he complements my force well. I hardly rely on him to take on impossible odds all the time.

But, if you like to run larger squads of stormtroopers for some staying power, I can see why marbo could be underwhelming. Marbo's meant to weaken the enemy's lines so the rest of the army can storm through, not clear an entire flank by himself.

The IG are one of the armies you have to learn to play. There are no forgiving armor saves and to many weapons out there that negate cover saves. So what does that leave, dead guardsmen everywhere. I run the standard mech vets because I to like the tanks. It is fun to see the opponents face when at 1750 points, I field five chimeras, a exterminator, and two manti ores. The large amount of plasma and Melta guns you can throw in is the only thing that space marine players envy.

Every now and then I run some off the wall unit to just have fun and change the game a bit. Garrick and some ogryns are fun and Marbo. Marbo has done well before, and done nothing. I have at least once played him, got him on the board, and forgot about him until he was removed from the game.

I think a lot of people over exaggerate Marbo. He's really more of a fun option to include. I have found he's not reliable and everytime I take him I wish I spent those 65 points elsewhere.

I usually play 1850 - 2000 point games. I could only see using Marbo in either small games, where I feel he goes further for the points cost. Or in Apoc games where the whole point is just to have fun.

 Ailaros wrote:
But artillery can do this better.

Well I should hope so given that the cheapest AP 2/3 artillery costs over twice as much as Marbo. Even if you ignore the other advantages Marbo offers (good luck hurting 2+ saves with a Basilisk, and BS 5 isn't exactly trivial) the Basilisk has to shoot three times to be better than Marbo, which is far from certain for an AV 12 open-topped vehicle. And if you park it out of LOS then the advantage of Marbo's BS 5 becomes even more significant.

Marbo isn't awesome because he's the absolute most powerful unit in the codex, he's awesome because no other unit does so much for so few points.

Arguably so can flamer stormies, what with being able to ignore cover saves.

Unless you're fighting MEQs, in which case those flamers don't do much. And even when they work the flamer stormtroopers are still more expensive and much less accurate (and with flamers you really need perfect accuracy when you arrive).

kestril wrote:The thing about marbo is that he's so killy, even without his detpack, your opponent has to inefficiently divert some firepower to take him out. He will die, the point is to make your opponent waste firepower.

I don't get it. Is he a serious threat that your opponent needs to handle, or is he a worthless threat that your opponent is wasting firepower on?

Peregrine wrote:good luck hurting 2+ saves with a Basilisk... the Basilisk has to shoot three times to be better than Marbo.

Congratulations, you found a use where marbo is better. Against almost everything else, the basilisk is.

kestril wrote:But they can't do it cheaper.

Sure, and as a way to plug a 65 point hole in a list, he's not the worst thing in the world (though I would note that there are other ways to spend those points in most cases).

I don't know how much I'd ever want to drop points from other stuff to free up enough to take marbo, though.

Plus, if the only thing that was important was the cheapest possible ordnance, then take a MoO. Less accurate per shot (though with BiD and BS4 he's not bad against vehicles, especially in 6th ed), but you get more shots, and he's less than half the cost.

 Ailaros wrote:
Congratulations, you found a use where marbo is better. Against almost everything else, the basilisk is.

And, again, the Basilisk costs more than twice as much. Of course the Basilisk has an advantage in being able to fire multiple times, I would expect you to get something for that huge point increase.

Plus, if the only thing that was important was the cheapest possible ordnance, then take a MoO. Less accurate per shot (though with BiD and BS4 he's not bad against vehicles, especially in 6th ed), but you get more shots, and he's less than half the cost.

Well, if you want an AP 3 weapon that scatters a huge distance instead of an AP 2 weapon with BS 5, and don't mind tying up your CCS to shoot it (I prefer to have my CCS delivering melta/plasma somewhere instead) I suppose it's an alternative. And of course let's not forget that "getting more shots" is kind of hard for a small T3/no-save infantry squad that your opponent wants to kill ASAP to shut off orders, so it's not really fair to assume that the MoO gets to fire enough times to make up for its inferiority at everything else.

Does the MoO need line of sight. I honestly can't recall. If not then the CCS could be behind cover and tucked alway safe. Although I do recall you need LOS from the CCS to the enemy target you are issuing said orders against.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Does the MoO need line of sight. I honestly can't recall. If not then the CCS could be behind cover and tucked alway safe. Although I do recall you need LOS from the CCS to the enemy target you are issuing said orders against.

Nope, but he does need sight if you're wanting to subtract your BS4, which is kind of important since you will always scatter.

I thought the MoO always scattered and was 2d6 with LOS and 3d6 without. It's late, I haven't opened my guard codex in months, forgive me if I am wrong.

Peregrine wrote:And, again, the Basilisk costs more than twice as much.

And it's more than twice as good.

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:I thought the MoO always scattered and was 2d6 with LOS and 3d6 without.

It does, but it also subtracts BS, and, if price is the only thing that appears to matter, half as expensive.

As the blast template is over 2" in radius, if the target is in line of sight that means you can roll a 6 on scatter distance and still hit what you pointed at. Without orders, you should hit what you shot at about one in four times. In the case of vehicles, you can scatter by an extra 2" and still clip the hull. Combined with bring it down, and you hit your average vehicle rises to once every other shot.

You can't make a serious argument for marbo being better at killing stuff with large blasts because of artillery, and you can't make the argument for marbo being the cheapest, because of the MoO, and you can't make the argument for it killing stuff better for its cost because of the both of them.

Other stuff gives you a lot more, because it exists to throw pie plates at stuff without all of the goofy special rules and wargear that scarcely ever gets used.

 Ailaros wrote:

Peregrine wrote:And, again, the Basilisk costs more than twice as much.

And it's more than twice as good.

Only if it survives to fire at least three times. The only advantage the Basilisk has is multiple shots, and in my experience artillery tanks within LOS of their target don't usually survive three turns.

Without orders, you should hit what you shot at about one in four times.

One in five, actually.

(For comparison, Marbo has a 72% chance.)

You can't make a serious argument for marbo being better at killing stuff with large blasts because of artillery, and you can't make the argument for marbo being the cheapest, because of the MoO, and you can't make the argument for it killing stuff better for its cost because of the both of them.

Except the MoO is garbage. Unlike Marbo it rarely hits, and has the hidden cost of tying up your CCS with a mediocre weapon. Marbo offers an effective threat for much cheaper than anything else in the codex that can match that threat.

I honestly don't see why everyone loves the autocannon so much. It is mediocre at killing both hordes and tanks. I rather specialize and take Heavy Bolters for anti horde and lascannons for anti-tank. Or just spend the extra 10pts and take more lascannons.

Ok, so I'm going to end this argument right here and now.

Ailaros, you know full well why you hate Marbo. Because your dice hate you with a passion that shouldnt even be possible. I've seen you roll things that I didn't even know were possible. It goes to reason that with luck like yours, you would hate Marbo, because he'd always seem like he whiffs. Just like how some people only seem to remember that one time he really wrecks something, others seem to only remember the times when he whiff horribly. Everything has the potential to whiff. Your stormtroopers have proven that before, and thats with rerolling scatter and BS 4 with 2 special weapons.

If we went by the logic that potential to miss = horrible, literally nothing in our army would be viable. ESPECIALLY the master of ordnance. His only saving grace is that the things he's needed to kill (hordes and parking lots) literally take up a 1/4 of the table, so he's got a chance of hitting at least something. Meanwhile, Marbo's got a very good chance of hitting his target, especially if you're trying to snipe something. Even if the demo charge scattered to the other end of the unit, those wounds are still going on the closest guy first (you did put him closest to the special weapons/sarge right?)

Also, comparing Marbo to artillery is crazy, that's like comparing an assasin to a howitzer (oh wait) They're made for very different tasks. Just because they both have a pie plate doesnt make them the same. Marbo is for killing that one unit you really want dead, backing up other outflankers/deepstrikers, and disrupting an enemy's deployment zone. An artillery piece is for pounding hordes and hard targets from long range while trying desperately to not die (to things like Marbo for example)

So let's get back on topic and let the whole Marbo thing go to rest ok?

Peregrine wrote:Only if it survives to fire at least three times.

Only according to your one weird situation. In most cases, artillery only needs to shoot once to be equal to marbo.

Peregrine wrote:Marbo offers an effective threat for much cheaper than anything else in the codex that can match that threat.

If we're going to bring up value, and not just price, then artillery is a much better value.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Ailaros, you know full well why you hate Marbo. Because your dice hate you with a passion that shouldnt even be possible.

Firstly, I don't hate marbo, I think he's overrated. Secondly, it's possible to argue for or against something abstractly, given general principles, rather than one's specific circumstances.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: Or just spend the extra 10pts and take more lascannons.

The more I've been playing, the more I've been finding this to be true. In an army of flimsy units, you have to make every hit count, and lascannons tend to kill a lot more stuff a lot faster than most other things.

Trying to glance things to death and hoping that your opponent fails armor saves just doesn't seem to cut it anymore. Well, with the possible exception of lasgun weight of fire, but still...

 Ailaros wrote:

kestril wrote:The thing about marbo is that he's so killy, even without his detpack, your opponent has to inefficiently divert some firepower to take him out. He will die, the point is to make your opponent waste firepower.

I don't get it. Is he a serious threat that your opponent needs to handle, or is he a worthless threat that your opponent is wasting firepower on?

That's the thing: He's win-win. He's a credible threat before he comes on the board, but after he throws the detpack he has the potential do just enough damage for your opponent to consider wasting firepower on. But really, after he throws the detpack, he's usually dead to me, and any amount of firepower he can soak up is a plus, and any amout damage he can deal by sticking meltabombs onto things works for me as well.

Sure, and as a way to plug a 65 point hole in a list, he's not the worst thing in the world (though I would note that there are other ways to spend those points in most cases).

I don't know how much I'd ever want to drop points from other stuff to free up enough to take marbo, though.

Plus, if the only thing that was important was the cheapest possible ordnance, then take a MoO. Less accurate per shot (though with BiD and BS4 he's not bad against vehicles, especially in 6th ed), but you get more shots, and he's less than half the cost.

I take both

 Ailaros wrote:
Only according to your one weird situation. In most cases, artillery only needs to shoot once to be equal to marbo.

Per point.

AP 3 artillery costs a minimum of twice as much (Basilisk), so it has to fire twice to even come close. But if it only fires twice it's AP 3 vs. AP 2, and BS 3 (or BS 0, if out of LOS) vs. BS 5 so it's still less effective per point. The Basilisk has to fire a third time to even make an argument for superior point efficiency. If it dies before firing that third shot, which it tends to do if it has LOS, it is less effective per point than Marbo.

Peregrine wrote:AP 3 artillery costs a minimum of twice as much (Basilisk), so it has to fire twice to even come close.

It has to fire twice to be roughly equal against vast majority of targets. A feat that's easy to achieve.

kestril wrote: But really, after he throws the detpack, he's usually dead to me, and any amount of firepower he can soak up is a plus

so, he's basically a one-shot artillery piece, then?

Sounds like the hunter-killer missile of large blast weapons.

 Ailaros wrote:
It has to fire twice to be roughly equal against vast majority of targets. A feat that's easy to achieve.

Even assuming AP 2 doesn't matter how exactly is BS 3 "roughly equal" to BS 5? How is having to survive a turn in line of sight of anti-tank units before getting the break-even shot "roughly equal" to a unit that is impossible to stop? You're only getting this "equality" by ignoring all of Marbo's advantages.

Sounds like the hunter-killer missile of large blast weapons.

Except that, unlike a hunter-killer missile, Marbo has a high chance of killing enough to justify his points.

I've never seen such a heated debate over a 65 point unit...ever.

Edit: and a crappy one at that

So back on topic.... (because I really don't care about Marbo)

I'll explain a little about my current evolution of guard list. I like to play in tournaments, this list is meant to play fast and brutal, because my experience is that 6th takes longer for the same amount of points, the idea here is to blast the opponent off the table and hold objectives using blobs of guard, grey hunters and the PCSs.

ATM I'm playing with Wolves. This isn't my idea but it's a good one. Rune priests open the option to divination spells and jaws (which is the best psyker power in the game). Grey hunters are a solid troop choice who can provide a little bit more robustness for objectives you have to hold.

The rune priests use the divination primaris power on my vehicles (making them twin linked), this makes barrage sniping very effective because the 1st hit has a 2/3 chance of hitting without scatter and give a good chance for subsequent shots in multiple barrage to go exactly where you want them, even if the first scatters. I'm currently experimenting with 2 rune priests, one for jaws in a drop pod with grey hunters and the other as my twin linker.

Allies aside, AP is king in 6th. It's debatable whether to take executioner or demolisher, but for less points I can do some good damage using a demolisher, my opponent will be 24 inches away from me when I start meaning I will always be able to stay comfortably away from infantry walking towards me. I normally take 2 of these in a squadron and they're very capable death star killers.

Pick the right targets, with this list I pick the things that can score Hull points fastest and kill them first, after you've killed them you have a lot of flexibility to dominate the table.

Fight flyer with flyer. The Vendetta is a king of the sky, use it to kill other flyers and you won't need a quad gun. After this you can use it to clean up enemy vehicles or tougher infantry.

Use blobs, Taking 30+ guard in a squad with commissars makes a unit that is capable of soaking fire and standing ground. This negates the need for the "get back in the fight" order. Give all the characters power axes to give them a chance of scoring a wound in a challenge. Mix in plasma if you have the points.

I'm taking a lord commissar, with a power sword he's 45 points more than a normal commissar but that's still 5 less than a platoon command squad and it saves having to buy a commissar for a blob.

Mix in some veteran squads, be careful with these, they're expensive and any BS4 squad packing that much plasma is a good target for your opponent. I don't do this so often.

General rules of thumb for any guard list:
Make sure you can kill 3-5 Hull points in the 1st turn. I find this is a good balence between vehicle heavy armies and vehicle absent armies.
Always have a solid flyer defense. Most flyers will wreak havoc on your armor if you give them the chance.
Make scoring units that can soak a lot of damage, either trough a defense line or blobbing.

If I think of anything else i'll be sure to post again.

minid33 wrote:


I'm taking a lord commissar, with a power sword he's 45 points more than a normal commissar but that's still 5 less than a platoon command squad and it saves having to buy a commissar for a blob.

Hold up, what.

I don't get the "5 less than a PCS" thing.

Why don't you just use a regular Commissar? There's no reason to have an LC for one blob.


And the Marbo discussion is totally on topic.

The title is "IG Tactics/Tricks"
In this case, he falls under the realm of "IG Tricks"

minid33 wrote:Allies aside, AP is king in 6th. It's debatable whether to take executioner or demolisher, but for less points I can do some good damage using a demolisher, my opponent will be 24 inches away from me when I start meaning I will always be able to stay comfortably away from infantry walking towards me. I normally take 2 of these in a squadron and they're very capable death star killers.

I agree. The small blast of plasma cannons means that they're easier to displace to avoid, and the low strength makes them crummy against all but the lightest of vehicles.

Meanwhile, the demolisher eats vehicles for breakfast and causes instant death to both T4 and T5 infantry models. And its cheaper to boot. Its only serious drawback (range), can be fixed with better deployment.

minid33 wrote:Use blobs, Taking 30+ guard in a squad with commissars makes a unit that is capable of soaking fire and standing ground. This negates the need for the "get back in the fight" order. Give all the characters power axes to give them a chance of scoring a wound in a challenge. Mix in plasma if you have the points.

The problem is that a blob of 30 with a commissar isn't very much more durable than a squad of 30 without one. Leadership isn't the reason I've been losing my infantry in this edition - it's because they're getting shot off the table at frightening speed nowadays. Plus, MSU doesn't suffer from leadership problems as badly (what with only having SO many run off the board at a single time, rather than all of them), and, along with newer, kinder regrouping and a regimental standard, has left most things on the board that I want to stay on the board (well, for leadership reasons anyways).

If commissars gave me back by-unit cover, or allowed me to take casualties from the back of squads again, I'd take them in a heartbeat, but as they don't, I don't see the point of having them around anymore.

minid33 wrote:I'm taking a lord commissar, with a power sword

Why bother with a sword when you can take a fist?

minid33 wrote:Make sure you can kill 3-5 Hull points in the 1st turn.

You don't HAVE to think of it in terms of hull points. You can still destroy vehicles outright.

I do agree, though. Having the ability to knock out a vehicle or two right away is pretty nice.

minid33 wrote:Always have a solid flyer defense. Most flyers will wreak havoc on your armor if you give them the chance.

I actually disagree with this. I think that you should either dominate the air game, or dominate the ground game. If you want to run with a lot of valkyries and vendettas in an air-cav list, that's fine, but I don't see much use in being middling in the air and only have the points left to be middling on the ground.

Meanwhile, you can always take the other option and double-down on winning the ground game. At their worst, most fliers can only kill your stuff. They're never going to claim or contest objectives, they're just going to be annoying. Likely, if they spent a lot on planes, they likely haven't spent much on ground units, and likely have too few scoring units. Once you take those out, then it's a matter of you holding all the objectives while a bunch of fliers forlornly circle the battlefield wishing they could be strategically useful.

Peregrine wrote: How is having to survive a turn in line of sight of anti-tank units before getting the break-even shot "roughly equal" to a unit that is impossible to stop?

Barrage weapons and AV12 in cover. You're only failing to see how artillery is better by ignoring the rules.

TheCaptain wrote:and a crappy one at that

If only everyone here was capable of abstract thinking, rather than dragging every argument down to the level of fighting over what the definition of words means.

I use IG as allies for my Orks and Marbo (modeled as an ork of course!) is a great choice to take since I can only have 1 HS. He's even got me line breaker before.

Wading into the debate on Marbo: He's always performed well for me, admirably in fact for a 65pt unit...
I don't touch him anymore due to there being better ways to spend those 65pts in my opinion. I'd rather take more weapons than a one-trick-pony.

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:and a crappy one at that

If only everyone here was capable of abstract thinking, rather than dragging every argument down to the level of fighting over what the definition of words means.

But then Dakka would cease to have purpose!

The Executioner cannon is miles better than the Demolisher. Reason: 3 times as many shots. The Demolisher cannon is excellent but the Demo is a one trick pony. One shot, pray it hits and then hope your opponent doesnt space properly. Against vehicles its not bad but even on a penetrating you have a 33% chance to kill. Not that great on just a single shot.

Smart players will range out your Demo and against armies like Grey Knights and Necrons your moving into their kill box with a 24" range. You're almost guaranteed to lose your Demo every game and not assured it will do its job.

If used defensively as part of a static gun line I think it works fine as a denial unit. Its not a bad tank but its lost a lot of luster with the move to a Heavy vehicle.

Ah sorry I didn't explain the lord commisar thing well. If you consider a commisar normally is 35 and a ccs is 50. You dont buy a ccs or normal commisar so you save on points in hindsight I did some bad math.

The main purposes of the commissars are to stop from being cut down if you end up in melee, they increase the tarpitting ability of the squad.

For shooting the PCs can do first rank fire second rank fire which helps a little.

Also I did remember a no-brainer. I'm always using 2 collosus these days and hiding them in large los blocking ruins, they're kickass at killing anything with a 3+ save

Glocknall wrote:
The Executioner cannon is miles better than the Demolisher.

Because it can totally instant-death stuff.

Oh wait.

 TheCaptain wrote:

Glocknall wrote:
The Executioner cannon is miles better than the Demolisher.

Because it can totally instant-death stuff.

Oh wait.

Im sure Chaos Daemon Armies are really concerned about ID....

Or pray you can double out those TWD because the Wolf Lord has Saga of the Bear and a Storm Shield...

Maybe 2 hits on some wraiths would be good, if their 3++ fails..

Or Nob Bikers 4+ cover..,...

Maybe those Oblits will DS right in my 24" range...

Or those Paladins wont take their Nemesis Force weapons with them.....

The Demolisher is fantastic against inexperienced players, veteran players can easily game it now.


Captain I'll grant you its fantastic for killing Ogyrns.

Take a Basilisk of you want to throw single pie plates. At least it can barrage snipe.

I've actually got to correct you on the demoliser v. executioner with regard to number of hits.

Your opponents only need to spread out just a little over 1" between models in order for a small blast template to only hit 1 model per shot. Meanwhile, with a large blast template, you always hit at least 3 models, even at max coherency.

So, if it's possible for your opponent to make you only get three hits either way, what does it matter? Well, it matters because it's a lot tougher to maintain exact 2" coherency than it is to maintain 1+" coherency, once we start talking about practical experience on the tabletop. Furthermore, this means that there is a range between 1" coherency and 2" coherency where the large blast is hitting more models, while the small blast is still hitting one.

Add to this the fact that it's much easier to wing nearby squads with a scatter with a large blast template, and you really should expect to get more hits in with the demolisher when it shoots.

And then, as mentioned, it does more damage. Yeah, nob bikers get that 4+ cover save, but it effects both demolisher and executioner equally. Once you filter out control variables like this, you're left with a question of if you want to do 2 wounds per hit or just 1. Plus, the demolisher is much, much better against vehicles than an executioner, what with being +3 strength, and ordnance, and benefiting more from the off-center blast rules more because of the size of its template.

And its cheaper.

The executioner does have a couple of real advantages, like being able to hurt monstrous creatures better, but the demolisher is better in general.

 Ailaros wrote:
I've actually got to correct you on the demoliser v. executioner with regard to number of hits.

Your opponents only need to spread out just a little over 1" between models in order for a small blast template to only hit 1 model per shot. Meanwhile, with a large blast template, you always hit at least 3 models, even at max coherency.

So, if it's possible for your opponent to make you only get three hits either way, what does it matter? Well, it matters because it's a lot tougher to maintain exact 2" coherency than it is to maintain 1+" coherency, once we start talking about practical experience on the tabletop. Furthermore, this means that there is a range between 1" coherency and 2" coherency where the large blast is hitting more models, while the small blast is still hitting one.

Add to this the fact that it's much easier to wing nearby squads with a scatter with a large blast template, and you really should expect to get more hits in with the demolisher when it shoots.

And then, as mentioned, it does more damage. Yeah, nob bikers get that 4+ cover save, but it effects both demolisher and executioner equally. Once you filter out control variables like this, you're left with a question of if you want to do 2 wounds per hit or just 1. Plus, the demolisher is much, much better against vehicles than an executioner, what with being +3 strength, and ordnance, and benefiting more from the off-center blast rules more because of the size of its template.

And its cheaper.

The executioner does have a couple of real advantages, like being able to hurt monstrous creatures better, but the demolisher is better in general.

Also, the executioner has being heavy going for it. I can fire 5 small blasts a turn (At optimal rolling), which would get me 5 hits as opposed to three. Add on a normal hitting lascannon or HB, and we are really starting to see some good hits come out of the executioner.

Granted, at this point it is MUCH more expensive then the demolisher, but my executioner has not let me down yet.

You guys are assuming that all your execution hits are going to actually clip a model. The Demolisher will also not blow itself up.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
You guys are assuming that all your execution hits are going to actually clip a model. The Demolisher will also not blow itself up.

If you are running just the executioner cannon, the executioner can't blow itself up either. Only the sponsons have gets hot.

Plus, the executioner out ranges the demolisher by 12".

 Happygrunt wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
You guys are assuming that all your execution hits are going to actually clip a model. The Demolisher will also not blow itself up.

If you are running just the executioner cannon, the executioner can't blow itself up either. Only the sponsons have gets hot.

Plus, the executioner out ranges the demolisher by 12".

If your counting 5 hits, then I am counting gets hot. Don't get me wrong I like the all Plas executioner. I jut think that the Demolisher is better if you are only taking one LRBT variant.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
You guys are assuming that all your execution hits are going to actually clip a model. The Demolisher will also not blow itself up.

If you are running just the executioner cannon, the executioner can't blow itself up either. Only the sponsons have gets hot.

Plus, the executioner out ranges the demolisher by 12".

If your counting 5 hits, then I am counting gets hot. Don't get me wrong I like the all Plas executioner. I jut think that the Demolisher is better if you are only taking one LRBT variant.

Fair enough, and I think the demolisher is a great tank. It just feels limited in it's use (at least to me).

When I run BA, I have 2 Vindicators running around. I know how good S10 AP2 can be, but I also know it's limitations. You have to get closer then almost any other LRBT variant for it to fire.

It should be noted that I do not run one LRBT variant, I am usually running 1-2 LRBT, an exterminator and the executioner.

 Ailaros wrote:
I've actually got to correct you on the demoliser v. executioner with regard to number of hits.

Your opponents only need to spread out just a little over 1" between models in order for a small blast template to only hit 1 model per shot. Meanwhile, with a large blast template, you always hit at least 3 models, even at max coherency.

So, if it's possible for your opponent to make you only get three hits either way, what does it matter? Well, it matters because it's a lot tougher to maintain exact 2" coherency than it is to maintain 1+" coherency, once we start talking about practical experience on the tabletop. Furthermore, this means that there is a range between 1" coherency and 2" coherency where the large blast is hitting more models, while the small blast is still hitting one.

And its cheaper.

The executioner does have a couple of real advantages, like being able to hurt monstrous creatures better, but the demolisher is better in general.

Actually that only applies with 25mm bases. If your facing non-standard bases like 40mm bases or larger your number of hits goes down as the breadth of the base will eat into the radius of the large blast. I play against a lot of Nob Bikers and Paladin squads and my opponents are very good at spreading them about so I cannot usually catch more than two in any one blast.

As pointed out above ordnance is a double edge sword, severely limiting the additional firepower of the tank.

5 small blasts trump one large one any day. You only have a 33% chance of a direct hit and your average scatter is 7"- 3 BS. With a 4 inch scatter You'd be lucky to even get a portion of the template on a vehicle. Hardly anything I'd depend on.

Also I can fire my hull LC, and my sponsons. Every time at full BS.

And I keep away from Psycannons and Gauss.

Demolisher pre 1.1 FAQ was a standby in my army. But I dont take LR for a single shot per turn. That is what Arty is for.

Glocknall wrote:
With a 4 inch scatter You'd be lucky to even get a portion of the template on a vehicle. Hardly anything I'd depend on.

That's not at all true. You have an average scatter of 4", but you can scatter 2.5" before the template no longer touches the initial aiming point, and another 1-2" before it leaves the vehicle entirely. So about 50% of the time you don't hit directly you'll still hit a vehicle target, for a total of 66% of the time. That's BS 4, and I don't think many people will argue that a BS 4 weapon is too inaccurate to depend on.

 Peregrine wrote:

Glocknall wrote:
With a 4 inch scatter You'd be lucky to even get a portion of the template on a vehicle. Hardly anything I'd depend on.

That's not at all true. You have an average scatter of 4", but you can scatter 2.5" before the template no longer touches the initial aiming point, and another 1-2" before it leaves the vehicle entirely. So about 50% of the time you don't hit directly you'll still hit a vehicle target, for a total of 66% of the time. That's BS 4, and I don't think many people will argue that a BS 4 weapon is too inaccurate to depend on.

But a Leman Russ is BS 3, so will the math still work out the same?

Right, unlike a small blast which can't scatter as far. Which is really important in this case as with a demolisher you can scatter 7" and still hit, while with the small blast, you can only scatter 5", which, given how the bell curve looks for 2D6 is rather important.

And it's a moot point anyways, because S10 ordnance is going to be way, way better at killing most vehicles than S7 blast.

Also, 5 small blasts isn't always straight away better than 1 large blast. You've got to take other things into consideration like strength and, in this case, price. It's also important to note that the price of plasma cannon sponsons doesn't really make the plasma boat executioner all that much more efficient at dispensing plasma blasts, while also making the vehicles more unfortunate of targets when they get ripped apart by death rays.

 Happygrunt wrote:
But a Leman Russ is BS 3, so will the math still work out the same?

What I mean is that the LR Demolisher's main gun has about the same chance of hitting a vehicle target as a single-shot BS 4 weapon, which is hardly inaccurate.

Exactly, unless we're talking about a really big target like a land raider, in which case the BS is even better (and S7 can't even hurt).

Actually, this is starting to give me second thoughts about a pask demolisher. He won't get to use the + to armor penetration (like S10 ordnance needs it), but he'd still get to use BS4. Being able to still hit a vehicle even after scattering up to 9" is close enough to "look, it's going to hit what it shoots at" to me.

 Ailaros wrote:
He won't get to use the + to armor penetration (like S10 ordnance needs it)

Just to remove the ambiguity here in case anyone else is reading this: the bonus still applies just fine, you just tend to move demolishers too much to ever meet the "no moving" requirement. If you ever happen to be in a situation where you don't need to move you'll still get the bonus to armor penetration.

The best 30 points in the IG book is giving 10 guys melta bombs and 1 guy a demo charge.
That's a seriously under-costed upgrade.

I run 50-60 vets with melta bombs as my troops. I find it a way better anti-tank wrap than any number of melta guns.
People get careless about getting too close to IG infantry forgetting that they can assault.

-Matt

I would use the demolisher over the executioner, simply for speed. I don't like scattering loads of templates, and resolving 5 takes far longer than one. With such a large infantry force, I need to speed things up a bit or it gets annoying for both sides. This is one of the reasons I'm thinking about dropping the manticore, it takes a while to work out multiple barrage against a squad.

 Ailaros wrote:
Exactly, unless we're talking about a really big target like a land raider, in which case the BS is even better (and S7 can't even hurt).

Actually, this is starting to give me second thoughts about a pask demolisher. He won't get to use the + to armor penetration (like S10 ordnance needs it), but he'd still get to use BS4. Being able to still hit a vehicle even after scattering up to 9" is close enough to "look, it's going to hit what it shoots at" to me.

That's great, but how is a Demolisher better than say a Manticore. A Manticore gets twice as many shots on average, fires from the get go, and is barrage. Demolisher has to get too close to defend itself anymore now that it basically gets one shot. Squad of marines is not going to be afraid of closing on a Demolisher anymore because at best it can only kill 3 per turn. Before the 1.1 FAQ with MM or PC sponsons and a hull LC the amount of firepower it could put out would devastate nearly anything. One shot on a LR tank just does not cut it at 24". The LR is a mobile gun boat, not an uparmored piece of artillery. Oh and don't forget about cover.

A LR will need 2-3 shots to kill a chimera. You think those Melta Vets are going to give you the time to get those shots off before they fry your Demo? Nope. Necron Warriors wont either. Grey Knights wont as well. Eldar lances dont care as well. I suppose if your happy driving up your Demo like an overpriced Vindicator your more than welcome to do so.

Glocknall wrote:

A LR will need 2-3 shots to kill a chimera.

Why are you shooting a Leman russ at a chimera...

TheCaptain wrote:

Glocknall wrote:A LR will need 2-3 shots to kill a chimera.

Why are you shooting a Leman russ at a chimera...

It may be the most crucial target to take down.

I would like to note, though, that a demolisher will blow up a chimera at the same speed as three vets inside with meltaguns will blow up a demolisher.

Glocknall wrote:That's great, but how is a Demolisher better than say a Manticore. A Manticore gets twice as many shots on average, fires from the get go, and is barrage. Demolisher has to get too close to defend itself anymore now that it basically gets one shot.

Firstly, the demolisher is better because of Ap2. The demolisher always kills vehicles twice as fast per shot. The manticore may get twice as many shots, and it might get more, but it might get less. Don't be fooled into thinking there is an average number of shots a manticore gets, because there isn't. It's just less reliable.

Of course, Ap2 also means that you're actually hurting monstrous creatures and TEq and MEq, or forcing them all into cover, and is also a hard counter to deathstar units in a way a manticore will never be.

Secondly, the demolisher does have to expose itself to shoot, but it's also AV14. A missile launcher longfang squad will kill AV12 with a 4+ cover save much faster than an AV14 vehicle without one. Meanwhile, russes just don't care about autocannons or scatterlasers. They even only give passing concern to lascannons, a weapon which will cause a penetrating hit on a manticore half of the time it hits.

The manticore is nice for its barrage abilities, certainly, but it's not just strictly better.

I bring both manticores and demolishers!

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:

Glocknall wrote:A LR will need 2-3 shots to kill a chimera.

Why are you shooting a Leman russ at a chimera...

It may be the most crucial target to take down.

Haha no like, I understand that situationally you may have to do so, but I hardly think you should be gauging the strength of a LRD based on how it can pen AV12.

It's for killing mobs of elites.

You know, my way of scaling things has been changing over time. I really don't consider it an anti-AV12 weapon anymore unless it's S8 Ap1, S9 Ap2, or S10.

After half a rules edition of trying to peel paint with autocannons and missile launchers, I just want to shoot AV12 and have it just friggin die already.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Wading into the debate on Marbo: He's always performed well for me, admirably in fact for a 65pt unit...
I don't touch him anymore due to there being better ways to spend those 65pts in my opinion. I'd rather take more weapons than a one-trick-pony.

People who call Marbo a 1 trick pony often just look at the Demo Charge and assume that's what you're paying for. In a way, yes it is.

But let's look at the rest of his equipment:
Ripper Pistol (R12" StrX AP2, Pistol)
Melta Bombs
Envenomed Blade (Poisoned 2+, AP-)
Frag Grenades
Demolition Charge

Special rules: Fleet, Fearless, Move Through Cover, Stealth

If you put Marbo in a Ruin when he shows up, not only can he Nuke a squad, but he will also have a 3+ cover save. I've had him survive multiple times this way, and he's gone on to wreck squads that way. Fire his pistol, and then charge into combat with 6 WS5 I5 attacks that wound on a 2+. He won't beat Terminators in combat, but that's why you blow them up beforehand, and that's why you shoot them with the Ripper Pistol!

Anecdotal yes, but Marbo has a precision that you just don't find in the Guard. When I was fighting a trio of Manticores hiding behind a building that wasn't accessible through normal means, Marbo saved the day by hitting one with a Demo Charge, and then destroying the other two with Melta Bombs. For his cost he's fantastic. I've played quite a few games of 6th since it came out and I will always make room for Mr. Marbo

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

...listing gak from the codex...

Anecdotal yes, but Marbo has a precision that you just don't find in the Guard. When I was fighting a trio of Manticores hiding behind a building that wasn't accessible through normal means, Marbo saved the day by hitting one with a Demo Charge, and then destroying the other two with Melta Bombs.

Great can I put in an anecdote too? One time, it took Marbo 3 turns of consecutively missing with melta bombs on a predator. Oh also this one time, Marbo threw his demo charge, killed a couple of terminators then was shot to death. Oh wait the second one happens almost every time.

My problem with him, is that if you want to be aggressive with that demo charge, he's not going to survive to do much else. He's actually quite squishy to massed bolter fire. When he's deep behind enemy lines, those bolters, lasguns, fire warrior guns whatever they're called etc don't have a lot else to shoot at on turn 2. Yeah I've had him do some awesome things, like challenge then hit and run out. It's just I'd rather more guns.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Oh also this one time, Marbo threw his demo charge, killed a couple of terminators then was shot to death. Oh wait the second one happens almost every time.

And this is why Marbo is awesome. Your "disappointing" scenario is one where Marbo killed a minimum of 80 points of terminators for 65 points, then took a whole unit's shooting. That's a deal I'll take every time without hesitation.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
Oh also this one time, Marbo threw his demo charge, killed a couple of terminators then was shot to death. Oh wait the second one happens almost every time.

And this is why Marbo is awesome. Your "disappointing" scenario is one where Marbo killed a minimum of 80 points of terminators for 65 points, then took a whole unit's shooting. That's a deal I'll take every time without hesitation.

Haha indeed.

That awkward moment when your counterargument actually helps the opposing viewpoint.

That being said, I understand that Marbo doesn't work with everyone's playstyle, which is fine.

back to marbo again?
ah well. He can work and he doesnt on other days, but it is hialrious to see him take out 6 necron immortals and a cryptek, then get eradicated by tesla fire in the next turn

Reading all the posts about Imperial Guard tactics and the amount of advice geared towards "Getting more weapons" reminds me of a quote of a certain Engineer. Here's my butchered version of it, modified for the Imperial Guard.

TheCustomLime wrote:
Reading all the posts about Imperial Guard tactics and the amount of advice geared towards "Getting more weapons" reminds me of a quote of a certain Engineer. Here's my butchered version of it, modified for the Imperial Guard.

Spoiler:

"Hey look buddy, I'm a Guard player. That means I solve problems. No problems like "What is the best special character?", because that would fall within the purview of Marine Codices".

"I solve practical problems! For instance, how am I going to stop some big mean mother hubbard from tearing my army a structurally superflous new behind?".

"The answer is a gun. And if that don't work, use more gun".

"Like this AP2, S10 Large blast little ol' number assembled by me".

"Painted by me".

"And you best hope... not pointed at you".

Great game.

That's the long and short of it, we'll just argue about what dakka is the best dakka.

Peregrine wrote:
And this is why Marbo is awesome. Your "disappointing" scenario is one where Marbo killed a minimum of 80 points of terminators for 65 points, then took a whole unit's shooting. That's a deal I'll take every time without hesitation.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

That awkward moment when your counterargument actually helps the opposing viewpoint.

That being said, I understand that Marbo doesn't work with everyone's playstyle, which is fine.

So when my melta-gun toting vet kills 2 marines it's ok to let him die? I mean, he got his points back, and some. You can't measure a unit only by its ability to remove its points cost before it dies. Obviously that's a factor, but something that's so easy to remove is a one trick pony.

OMG can we stop talking about Marbo lol. Was hoping this thread would amount to some awesome tactica IG thread like the GK tactica and Vanilla SM tactica threads. Instead it's about 2-3 pages of arguing about Marbo. Kinda funny, kinda annoying..

Anywaysssss...
To give Vendettas duality purposes, do you guys ever give them HBs? I've been doing this recently and I think it's good. Only done it in 2 games so far though. Past turn 3 most AV is dead or almost dead vs guard so getting 2x sponson HBs in for about 2 rounds of shooting with those HBs fairs pretty well for 10 pts IMO.

Thoughts?

 Griddlelol wrote:

Obviously that's a factor, but something that's so easy to remove is a one trick pony.

And that's a bad thing? I mean, you can hardly fault a unit for doing what it's meant to do well and efficiently.

But he doesn't do it well against smart opponents, and he never does it efficiently. That's the problem.

syypher wrote:

To give Vendettas duality purposes, do you guys ever give them HBs?

Dual Purpose in the Guard Codex, he says...

Nah; Vendetta is a dedicated Lascannon Platform. If you don't have anything worth zapping with your lascannons, fly her off the board and back on next turn. Safer and more strategically reliable than spending an extra turn on the board maybe killing one dude with a HB.

10 points that could be spent elsewhere, Imho.

 TheCaptain wrote:

syypher wrote:

To give Vendettas duality purposes, do you guys ever give them HBs?

Dual Purpose in the Guard Codex, he says...

Nah; Vendetta is a dedicated Lascannon Platform. If you don't have anything worth zapping with your lascannons, fly her off the board and back on next turn. Safer and more strategically reliable than spending an extra turn on the board maybe killing one dude with a HB.

10 points that could be spent elsewhere, Imho.

This. If I have nothing worth shooting a lascannon at, then I've tabled my opponent and the game is over. It might be overkill on some targets, but I can almost always find a problem that needs to be solved with 3 TLLCs. If I need to murder light infantry, I've got battlecannons, ranks of lasguns, multiple Chimeras, and a Griffon. Playing IG means never having to use the end of a screwdriver to pound a nail because you always have the points to bring the hammer.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Playing IG means never having to use the end of a screwdriver to pound a nail because you always have the points to bring the hammer.

Love the analogy, brah. Perfect.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:if I have nothing worth shooting a lascannon at, then I've tabled my opponent and the game is over.

... or it means you're up against a foot list, at which point you would be begging for the cheapest heavy bolters in the codex.

Seriously, 10 points is peanuts for being able to do more than irritate infantry. It even helps against some things the lascannons will be used against, like light vehicles and monstrous creatures.

 Ailaros wrote:
But he doesn't do it well against smart opponents, and he never does it efficiently. That's the problem.

We've been over this. It doesn't matter if you're a "smart opponent", there's no effective counter to Marbo in 6th. If you spread out every single vulnerable unit to 2" coherency to deny a target for the demo charge then I've just spent 65 points to force half your models out of cover where I can focus fire on them and kill far more than Marbo would have. And if you don't spread out like that it's still a very accurate demo charge that easily kills enough to justify its points.

 Griddlelol wrote:
So when my melta-gun toting vet kills 2 marines it's ok to let him die? I mean, he got his points back, and some. You can't measure a unit only by its ability to remove its points cost before it dies. Obviously that's a factor, but something that's so easy to remove is a one trick pony.

You don't just let the veteran die, because he has a unit of meatshields and it would be stupid to do so. But if you have a key vehicle target to melta off the table at the cost of leaving your unit in a vulnerable position where they'll probably die, you do it and accept that the unit did its job before it died. Marbo is just more of the same: you don't want him to die, but the cost of doing his job effectively is that he often dies from it, and he usually gets it done before dying.

 Ailaros wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:if I have nothing worth shooting a lascannon at, then I've tabled my opponent and the game is over.

... or it means you're up against a foot list, at which point you would be begging for the cheapest heavy bolters in the codex.

Seriously, 10 points is peanuts for being able to do more than irritate infantry. It even helps against some things the lascannons will be used against, like light vehicles and monstrous creatures.

It's a valid reason, but don't forget the awful firing arc on those heavy bolters. They can't shoot directly forward so you need an infantry target that covers a lot of area if you want to use both of them. A lot of the time you're stuck with just one bolter, which is why they're so cheap.

 Ailaros wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:if I have nothing worth shooting a lascannon at, then I've tabled my opponent and the game is over.

... or it means you're up against a foot list, at which point you would be begging for the cheapest heavy bolters in the codex.

Seriously, 10 points is peanuts for being able to do more than irritate infantry. It even helps against some things the lascannons will be used against, like light vehicles and monstrous creatures.

If I had a spare ten points, I'd bring them. I could see that being roughly handy, and if you're trying to shoot down a dakka jet or a FMC, who knows, you might just ding another wound.

Then again, when's the last time an IG player had 10pts spare in their list?

Peregrine wrote:If you spread out every single vulnerable unit to 2" coherency to deny a target for the demo charge then I've just spent 65 points to force half your models out of cover where I can focus fire on them and kill far more than Marbo would have. And if you don't spread out like that it's still a very accurate demo charge that easily kills enough to justify its points.

There is no way that you can guarantee that this will be true. Just because I have stuff spread out does not mean that they are necessarily out of cover from the rest of your army. For one easy example, it's not too hard to displace behind an aegis in such a way where marbo gets at most 3 hits, and the whole army is still behind 4+ cover for the rest.

And "very accurate" does not mean "always hits".

Peregrine wrote:It's a valid reason, but don't forget the awful firing arc on those heavy bolters. They can't shoot directly forward so you need an infantry target that covers a lot of area if you want to use both of them. A lot of the time you're stuck with just one bolter, which is why they're so cheap.

Sure. Still nice insurance, though.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:if I have nothing worth shooting a lascannon at, then I've tabled my opponent and the game is over.

... or it means you're up against a foot list, at which point you would be begging for the cheapest heavy bolters in the codex.

Seriously, 10 points is peanuts for being able to do more than irritate infantry. It even helps against some things the lascannons will be used against, like light vehicles and monstrous creatures.

If I had a spare ten points, I'd bring them. I could see that being roughly handy, and if you're trying to shoot down a dakka jet or a FMC, who knows, you might just ding another wound.

Then again, when's the last time an IG player had 10pts spare in their list?

10 points means another meltagun or an autocannon. Just sayin'...

loner wrote:


10 points means another meltagun or an autocannon. Just sayin'...

Thissssssssss.

But if you're vendetta spamming, you probably aren't going to need many more meltaguns or autocannons.

I always find that over estimating your man power can be dangerous, what I mean is if you have a 30 man blob squad with commissar (of course), don't expect them to live forever. This could be because I only have a 30 man blob, 10 vets, company and platoon command squad as my infantry but I constantly find my blob dies quicker than expected and I am left with all bodies on the table. A quick summary then, there is no such thing as too many men, although your enemy may disagree with this

 Ailaros wrote:
But if you're vendetta spamming, you probably aren't going to need many more meltaguns or autocannons.

I mean, spamming is one thing, but I didn't think we were assuming spam was in effect.

 Peregrine wrote:

Marbo is just more of the same: you don't want him to die, but the cost of doing his job effectively is that he often dies from it, and he usually gets it done before dying.

That's my point - he's a one trick pony. That doesn't mean he's bad at what he does, it just means he has one use.

On the heavy bolter sponsons, I've never taken them. They just don't seem to mesh well with the role of the Vendetta, and as mentioned, it's rare you can fire both at one target.

End the discussion on Marbo now!

I'd much rather have seen an upgrade that let embarked troops fire from a Vendetta, rather than add a pair of sponson weapons that don't match the main guns. Then I could at least put a SWS with 3 sniper rifles in it t score some style points.

As for not having a worthy target for a Vendetta in a foot list, I beg to differ. Having the tool to hunt down and murder the CCS and the Platoon Command Squads, and double out Heavy Weapon Squads is quite helpful.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:As for not having a worthy target for a Vendetta in a foot list, I beg to differ. Having the tool to hunt down and murder the CCS and the Platoon Command Squads, and double out Heavy Weapon Squads is quite helpful.

Firstly, not all horde players are guard players. Secondly, good luck digging infantry out of ruins cover with lascannons.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
End the discussion on Marbo now!

This is like telling General Discussion to stop whining about Ward.

Good luck.

I dunno guys. I think Marbo could beat the dead horse more efficiently point-wise.

 kestril wrote:
I dunno guys. I think Marbo could beat the dead horse more efficiently point-wise.

What if the dead horse is a zombie rending pony?

Marbo could it do, he's the best at it.

Started another thread for Marbo talk:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/490403.page

Let's get back to general IG stuff.

 Trickstick wrote:

Let's get back to general IG stuff.

Imagine Marbo as an IG General

Lets talk about tanks with Camo Netting and an ADL.

I hear that having a line of A14 tanks with a 3+ cover save it kinda good... But is it actually worth the extra points for CN?

Even hellhounds sitting there, or artillery- it could be pretty solid if supported by infantry.

So if your making a gunline, with ADL, is camo netting worth the extra points?



Also, here is a little trick involving this that will catch MOST players off guard- Squad with 2 LR variants. Put one (which you gave Camo Netting) with its front touching the ADL. Put the other LR directly behind the first.
when shooting a vehicle squad, they MUST shoot the closest model first, which will have a 3++. And when it dies, they may not have a shot at all on the 2nd because of the front one blocking it completely if it is only Wrecked.

Best part is, vehicles in a squadron can shoot thru each other with no penalty, so you can in theory have a 3 russ squad in a straight line, and all can shoot thru each other- Dunno about you guys, but it will shock many people when they are frustrated they cant shoot your Executioner because the basic LRBT is sitting in front of it, then on your turn, it drops 5 Plaz plates thru your own tank... hehehe



Oh, and Marbo... figured I couldn't post in this thread without that word somewhere in the post... hahahaha

TheCaptain wrote:Imagine Marbo as an IG General

...

Wait. Who would win, him or Creed?

On the one hand, Creed is a strategic genius. On the other hand, Marbo would always be right behind Creed...

...


mind = blown

Btothefnrock wrote:So if your making a gunline, with ADL, is camo netting worth the extra points?

So, camo netting usually costs 20 points, and makes a tank 33% more survivable. As such, it would start making sense with any vehicle costing more than 80 points.

That said, there is plenty of stuff that ignores ADL's, like deepstrikers, outflankers, artillery, fliers and the like. Against these targets, you're basically just making them more expensive. Also, you have to consider the fact that in macro list building, those 80 points you're spending may be able to take a ragged number of left over points and allow you to fit another entire vehicle in there, which will rather increase the survivability as a whole more than the camo nets, while giving you more firepower to boot.

^ so lets say in a 1000 pt list. could it be worth it?

And of the things that "ignore ADL" you can take off deepstrikers and outflankers by plopping a few units around the tanks and using the wall to make a box instead of a straight line (that is if you know they are bringing DS or OF guys. Flyers- well, hopefully your QuadGun/Vindetta can take them out first. and Arty- unless your going IG on IG, hopefully it wont be an issue... haha

Btothefnrock wrote:
And when it dies, they may not have a shot at all on the 2nd because of the front one blocking it completely if it is only Wrecked.

It would block your LoS too though, as the wreck is not part of your squadron.

 Trickstick wrote:

Btothefnrock wrote:
And when it dies, they may not have a shot at all on the 2nd because of the front one blocking it completely if it is only Wrecked.

It would block your LoS too though, as the wreck is not part of your squadron.

Yes, on their turn. Then you move out from behind it up to the wall

 Ailaros wrote:

On the one hand, Creed is a strategic genius. On the other hand, Marbo would always be right behind Creed.

But there'd be a squadron of demolishers right behind Marbo, who is right behind Creed...

But marbo would be right behind the demolishers.

... who are outflanking marbo, who is right behind creed...

So Creed is in front of Marbo with Abbadon's arms.

Marbo is Behind Creed

Creed Has an Imperator Titan hiding behind Marbo

Marbo throws his Demo Charge, which scatters off to kill his own CCS offscreen

Imperator Titan fires at Marbo, who dies, revealing he was Lucius the Eternal the Whole time.

Real Marbo pops up behind the Imperator, but is killed by Draigo.


Draigo > Everything else in existence.

To bring it back on topic: What do people think of Chenkov and conscripts with SITNW?

syypher wrote:
Was hoping this thread would amount to some awesome tactica IG thread like the GK tactica and Vanilla SM tactica threads.

This.

The best guard commanders (Me) don't divulge their secrets to the public.

I am trying to build a all IG mech list. Since "Weaken Resolve" is not a witchfire attack it can not be used from inside a Chimera unfortunately. Plus the fact that the Psyker Battle Squad does not have access to other powers besides the two in the IG Codex, I don't think the PSB is a efficient/effective unit for the points. What are your thoughts on the effectiveness of the PSB in a Chimera?

Also, IG does not have access to Divination which can be a potent psychic discipline. How would you supplement the IG with psychic ability? A Primarus Psyker in the Command Squad Chimera? A Primarus Psyker in the Veteran Squad Chimera?

And what powers would be most useful for IG?

 Ailaros wrote:
But marbo would be right behind the demolishers.

... who are outflanking marbo, who is right behind creed...

I think we could make some kind of perpetual motion machine out of this.

Also guard tactics 101 are covered on page 1 of this thread. Pick your target, roll your dice. Guard aren't complex, they are however really, really cool.

 amrogers3 wrote:
I am trying to build a all IG mech list. Since "Weaken Resolve" is not a witchfire attack it can not be used from inside a Chimera unfortunately. Plus the fact that the Psyker Battle Squad does not have access to other powers besides the two in the IG Codex, I don't think the PSB is a efficient/effective unit for the points. What are your thoughts on the effectiveness of the PSB in a Chimera?

Also, IG does not have access to Divination which can be a potent psychic discipline. How would you supplement the IG with psychic ability? A Primarus Psyker in the Command Squad Chimera? A Primarus Psyker in the Veteran Squad Chimera?

And what powers would be most useful for IG?

Simply put, guard psykers are crap, and our units aren't worth buying psykers unless they're big blobs.

I use a 40 man Plasmagun/Lascannon blob with a Divination Rune Priest, and its filthy-good.

But any less in that squad, and the psyker wouldn't be worth it.


Guard kinda don't improve themselves with Psykers. They improve by bringing more guns.

loner wrote:
To bring it back on topic: What do people think of Chenkov and conscripts with SITNW?

I like them, having used them in two games this week. First game they got shot up by SW a lot but then came back on to cap objectives. Lost 8-7 because I split my army up too much on turn one and lost first blood. Game two against Tau I just kept sending them forward as cover and distraction whilst I concentrated on objectives.

Oh, and I had a kill team game with Chenkov and 30 conscripts against Farsight. That was fun.

loner wrote:
To bring it back on topic: What do people think of Chenkov and conscripts with SITNW?

I love them. They're the only permanent scoring unit in the codex, and they get stronger the more your opponents try to kill them. If there were some way of taking only conscripts, and if there were some way to give them the ability to hurt tanks, then that's all I'd ever take in my entire army.

As it is, though, I've got to have most of my army dedicated to handling tanks, given how many mech players there are at my store, so I wind up sacrificing my second squad of conscripts for more AT most of the time.

Btothefnrock wrote:

Also, here is a little trick involving this that will catch MOST players off guard- Squad with 2 LR variants.

I believe the whole squad gets camo cloaks.`

 amrogers3 wrote:
I am trying to build a all IG mech list. Since "Weaken Resolve" is not a witchfire attack it can not be used from inside a Chimera unfortunately. Plus the fact that the Psyker Battle Squad does not have access to other powers besides the two in the IG Codex, I don't think the PSB is a efficient/effective unit for the points. What are your thoughts on the effectiveness of the PSB in a Chimera?

Also, IG does not have access to Divination which can be a potent psychic discipline. How would you supplement the IG with psychic ability? A Primaris Psyker in the Command Squad Chimera? A Primaris Psyker in the Veteran Squad Chimera?

And what powers would be most useful for IG?

If you want divination, take space wolves (as I mentioned in my previous post)

The Primaris is OK at wrecking light armor and killing Toughness 3 dudes. I wouldn't really take him these days. For a few more points you can take a heavy weapon squad with auto-cannons, which I find to be more preferable. I have had some funny moments where he killed SM Heros with a force weapon (by sheer luck though). That's always a funny sight.

If you want PSBs to live long enough to earn their points, put them in ruins or an aegis line and go to ground when they get shot at. Use "Get back in the fight" orders to get them back up from your 2/3+ Cover save and keep on whaling on the enemy. I'm not really sure there are many other ways to keep them alive to weaken resolve enough to be worth their points.

As for conscripts, it's something I used to take as bubble wrap but these days bubble wrap is not very effective because your opponent can kill the dudes in his way to charge whatever you're wrapping. In an objectives game, which most games are I think this could be promising. I'll Chenkov it out (pun intended).

Another tactic I was thinking about is having a PSB with "Weaken Resolve" and having an ally assault squad that could take advantage of reduced leadership.

loner wrote:
To bring it back on topic: What do people think of Chenkov and conscripts with SITNW?

They are amazing at holding an objective on your board edge.

Primaris' don't have weaken resolve, that's ability only comes with PBSs. As for a strategy as a whole, there are an awful lot of "if's" in it (if the PBS passes a psychic test, if the enemy fails to deny the witch, if the ally squad rolls well for charge range, etc.) to be all that terribly reliable.

Plus, the enemy is only going to take a morale test at all if it wins the close combat, which means this is likely only working on crummy squads. Crummy squads that will likely lose a close combat straight away to an allied CC squad. The list is rather short in my mind of things that will both lose CC, and only lose by a small amount, so that weaken resolve could be useful.

And the reduced leadership only helps them break. If they avoid a sweep, you might well be doing your opponent a favor by keeping the allied squad out of close combat so that he can shoot them.

 Ailaros wrote:
Primaris' don't have weaken resolve, that's ability only comes with PBSs

I realized that after I posted and corrected it. Maybe a Primarius with "Weaken Resolve" would be much better. Power has the potential to be nasty.

Have to buy camo netting for every tank in a squadron I think. It's all or nothing. On russes it's 30pts for sure, per tank.

Obscenely expensive, but the look on your opponent's face when you explain your leman russ has a +3 cover save is priceless. To those saying deepstrikers are a problem, you obviously havent dropped a 40 man unit to the ground behind an aegis defence line. Unless, emperor forbid, a 9 strong unit of flamers landed right in front of your tank, you should survive just about anything they can throw at you.

Also, i leave for 3 days and miss the best Marbo discussion ever. I feel sad....

loner wrote:To bring it back on topic: What do people think of Chenkov and conscripts with SITNW?

I don't see how this unit would be that effective. First, if you use the SITNW, then then your opponent get a VP depending on mission. Next, you have to move them up on your board edge. How long is it going to take to get them back in the battle? They probably won't be able to make it back to be effective. Doesn't seem very feasible points wise either. 50 + 80 + 75 at a minimum to get this squad started. That's 205 points!! Waaay too expensive.

 amrogers3 wrote:

loner wrote:To bring it back on topic: What do people think of Chenkov and conscripts with SITNW?

I don't see how this unit would be that effective. First, if you use the SITNW, then then your opponent get a VP depending on mission. Next, you have to move them up on your board edge. How long is it going to take to get them back in the battle? They probably won't be able to make it back to be effective. Doesn't seem very feasible points wise either. 50 + 80 + 75 at a minimum to get this squad started. That's 205 points!! Waaay too expensive.

Only 1/6 of the missions are KP and it is 80+80+75 minimum for, essentially, Infinite Guardsmen.

I plan on trying them out in my next game. They sound.. interesting.

 amrogers3 wrote:
Next, you have to move them up on your board edge.

You can place objectives 6.000001" from the table edge, and the unit can move on 6", so they immediately respawn within scoring range of an objective, and can optionally use their run move to surround the objective and add insurance against casualties.

plus you just need to be within 3" of the objective to hold it. Place the objective by terrain or in a building and it can be almost impossible for the enemy to take from your conscripts.

Yes, all of that is true.

I'd also add that they're not that bad for stopping linebreaker and for killing stuff that gets in your deployment zone. Even a squad of 20 puts down 40 shots, and the DO, on occasion, accept FRF.

Especially if you have other stuff to injure them first, I've had conscripts finish off plenty of stuff in my deployment zone before. The best part is that if they're wiped out (or forced to run, given proper conscript placement), you can bring them back ANYWHERE on your board edge. This means that killing them can really just cause them to teleport anywhere onto your table edge, and into 12" range of something.

I'm a returning player who last played in 4th edition. I'm interested in running all infantry guard. I have a completely scandalous amount of infantry, heavy/special weapons, and elite options.

Any tips for pure foot slogger guard armies?

Vhaine wrote:
I'm a returning player who last played in 4th edition. I'm interested in running all infantry guard. I have a completely scandalous amount of infantry, heavy/special weapons, and elite options.

Any tips for pure foot slogger guard armies?

Things to do/Have:

Blobs with Melta/Plasma and Lascannons

Conscripts with Send In The Next Wave

Al'Rahem

Basilisks, Medusas, Manticores

Vendettas

CCS's with orders for your blobs

Stormtroopers

Don't waste points on your PCS, keep it under 50 points total.

Aegis Defense Lines

Don't try to kit out units to do multiple things; keep it simple

Avoid Sentinels, Hellhound Variants, Techpriests, and Penal Legions.

Don't put Vets on foot unless its with Harker.


Have fun

"Blobs with Melta/Plasma and Lascannons "

When you say blobs, are you're referancing the new IG ability to combine multiple squads into one unit? What's the advantage to doing this in a squad that contains AT weapons like lascannons? Overwatch? In the past I'd designed my normal squads as plasma/missile and used them just for shooting troops. I would dedicate numerous lascannon heavy weapon squads and platoon commands to do lascannon AT work.

"Stormtroopers"

I ran the points on them and they still seem very expensive. I keep trying to work them in, but so pricey.

"Don't waste points on your PCS, keep it under 50 points total. "

Are PCS orders relavent enough to justify min/max them? I was disappointed to see that they can no longer lend their leadership to other units in this edition. The CCS orders look great, but I'm having a hard time seeing the shine on the PCS orders.

Aegis Defense Lines

With or without the sentry turrent? I haven't modeled one yet, but I was considering using my old tarrantula. (I've got all old style metal cadians.)

What about these smaller ratling squads? Seems like sniper rifles and ratlings got a buff. Any thought there?

Vhaine wrote:

With or without the sentry turrent? I haven't modeled one yet, but I was considering using my old tarrantula. (I've got all old style metal cadians.)

What about these smaller ratling squads? Seems like sniper rifles and ratlings got a buff. Any thought there?

As a general note, you tent to see Aegis lines taken with the Quad Gun. For 50 points you effectively get 2 Twin Linked Autocannons with Skyfire and Interceptor. It's an amazing purchase.

Additionally, speaking as a player who uses Sniper Scouts in his marine army, I can tell you that Snipe Rifles did get better, the buff merely improved them from 'never useful' to 'occasionally useful'. While I'm not sure about how Ratlings perform, based on the improvement to Sniper Scouts I would argue that if they weren't worth taking in 5th they aren't any better in 6th, especially if Ratlings can't score.

especially if Ratlings can't score.

I'll have to look into that. I'm frankly not sure if they can. I haven't much time with the mission rules. I was working under the assumption that they could.

I play Space Marines and Orks, and I swear at my IG buddy when Marbo hits the F'ing table. (It's all in good fun)

WIth the new flier rules in 6th Edition, his Vendetta's rule the sky. Fortunately, I run an ork foot list, and could give a crap about 3 TL-Lascannons. "Oh, you killed 3 orks? Big woop. I'll grow more." However, my Space Marine techmarines cry at all of the damage that is done to his precious rhinos, land raiders, and predators.

As for tricks and tactics, Vendettas filled with plasma or melta veterans is cliche, but still very effective and self explanatory.

Vhaine wrote:


When you say blobs, are you're referancing the new IG ability to combine multiple squads into one unit? What's the advantage to doing this in a squad that contains AT weapons like lascannons? Overwatch? In the past I'd designed my normal squads as plasma/missile and used them just for shooting troops. I would dedicate numerous lascannon heavy weapon squads and platoon commands to do lascannon AT work.

The advantage is survivability and order efficiency. I run a 40 man blob with Lascannons and Plasmaguns. This one unit needs to take 10 casualties to force a leadership check, and like 30 before the enemy starts hitting my special/heavy weapons. They get 80ish shots on overwatch, and 80ish attacks in close combat. (More if you attach an IC with counter-attack.) For orders, you simply have to issue one order and it affects the entire 40 man blob.

Heavy Weapon Squads are too fragile; they instant death at Str6+ (which is super common as anti-transport fire in 6th) and after one casualty they run on ld7. Most will avoid HWS's now.

I ran the points on them [stormtroopers] and they still seem very expensive. I keep trying to work them in, but so pricey.

They're pretty darn expensive, but the Hotshot Lasguns are rather effective at picking apart a marine squad, and they are incredibly good at their main job; deep striking special weapons exactly where you need them.

Are PCS orders relavent enough to justify min/max them? I was disappointed to see that they can no longer lend their leadership to other units in this edition. The CCS orders look great, but I'm having a hard time seeing the shine on the PCS orders.

Frankly, their orders are kindof crap. Their only decent one is FRFSRF, and its still crap. The CCS is your order-monkey, the PCS is just a BS3 squad that can rock 4 special weapons. I suggest (and I rarely suggest this weapon) flamers and make them a suicide squad. Give 'em a Chimera or Vendetta (I recommend the latter) and send them where you need dat fire.

[Aegis] With or without the sentry turrent? I haven't modeled one yet, but I was considering using my old tarrantula. (I've got all old style metal cadians.)

For foot the Defense Line is (almost) mandatory. Guard makes it especially good, because we can GtG behind it for a 2+ save, then use GBITF right after. Its a fun little trick. The quad gun is up to you, but Flyers are stupid-good this edition, and very popular, so its advisable, yes.

What about these smaller ratling squads? Seems like sniper rifles and ratlings got a buff. Any thought there?

Snipers got a buff, but they're still bad. I'd avoid them; the rest of Dakka tends to agree with that.

If you find yourself short on heavy weapons, take a look at these bad boys. They are incredibly easy to scratchbuild, and have skyfire and interceptor (very sought after rules) along with t7, w2 and SV3. Oh, and a squad of 3 with TL-Lascannons is 150 pts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vhaine wrote:

especially if Ratlings can't score.

I'll have to look into that. I'm frankly not sure if they can. I haven't much time with the mission rules. I was working under the assumption that they could.

They cannot.

Only troops.

And Heavies in the Mission "Big Guns Never Tire"

and Fast Attack in "The Scouring"

If you find yourself short on heavy weapons, take a look at these bad boys. They are incredibly easy to scratchbuild, and have skyfire and interceptor (very sought after rules) along with t7, w2 and SV3. Oh, and a squad of 3 with TL-Lascannons is 150 pts.

Where can I find the rules on them?

Vhaine wrote:

"Stormtroopers"

I ran the points on them and they still seem very expensive. I keep trying to work them in, but so pricey.

Firstly, meltacide is crazy good. Anywhere on the board, you're putting down one or more melta hits very, very often in melta range (if you place them aggressively).

Secondly, a full-sized squad of 10 puts down an awful lot of Ap3 shots, once again, anywhere on the board. I've been running a 10x squad of stormies with 2x flamers, and they are my most consistent objective clearers.

As for foot guard in general. Give a squad of Send in the Next Wave a try. There are a bunch of neat tricks you can do with them. Other than that, I've found it's a good thing to make sure you give your PISs some decent guns.

I think I'm going to try both in my game tommorrow. Also, on the site you have listed in your sig, you've got a list of revisions and changes. I found this helpful as I now have a list of specific rules I think I might need to reread.

Vhaine wrote:

If you find yourself short on heavy weapons, take a look at these bad boys. They are incredibly easy to scratchbuild, and have skyfire and interceptor (very sought after rules) along with t7, w2 and SV3. Oh, and a squad of 3 with TL-Lascannons is 150 pts.

Where can I find the rules on them?

FW has them. It is called the Rapier Carrier Battery. The models are awesome, and I plan to pick up three for the 40k friendly. Plus, they are 148 points fully kitted out. 3 twin-linked S9 Ordnance shots is nothing to laugh at.

Rules are here (and free!):

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/i/Imperial_Guard_Rapier.pdf

 Happygrunt wrote:
FW has them. It is called the Rapier Carrier Battery.

No, they are Sabre guns which are an entirely different unit and found in IA:Aeronautica.

Sabre's don't have ordnance.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
FW has them. It is called the Rapier Carrier Battery.

No, they are Sabre guns which are an entirely different unit and found in IA:Aeronautica.

Whops, sorry, didn't make the connection. Yah, Sabres...

Rapiers are still cool though!

Hey guys, sorry if this is a dumb question, but im confused. I currently have three chimera and two vendetta in my force; should I saturate my armour and run medusas or anchor my force with two demolishers?

 Afrodactyl wrote:
Hey guys, sorry if this is a dumb question, but im confused. I currently have three chimera and two vendetta in my force; should I saturate my armour and run medusas or anchor my force with two demolishers?

This really depends on what you're trying to achieve.

If you're trying to get to the other side of the table fast, the flyers aren't too shabby. The chimeras may not be the best use of points, because an opponent can glance you to death and changes to disembarkation. In general since 6th the tournament players reaction has been that they have not used chimeras as much and AT weapons have declined in use. You could call their bluff and try and see what happens but it's a gamble and if you're going to do this, go all in and use 6+ chimeras.

Running a Medusa is not a great idea, they're low armor and require direct LoS . You can achieve better results with a Demolisher and be more mobile enabled by the high armor values and the points difference is small. It allows you to kite the units coming towards you. This will solve your AT and death star issues.

Consider using the Medusas as a colossus model if it's an arty piece with a massive cannon on top. They're the best anti-troop choice i know of in pairs. I don't really go for a basilisk because min range 36 is very limiting in a game where the opponent starts a minimum of 24 inches from you but it's better for killing hiding vehicles.

On a completely unrelated subject I did try the conscripts in a 1000 point game with SITNW vs necrons and it was ok, it stopped me getting tabled but i think it's not a great test in a limited number of points. It stopped me getting tabled in an all infantry list and reduced the loss from 7-0 to 4-3 to the opponent. I can't help but think if i had the spend points on buying tanks instead of chenkov + SITNW + 30 conscripts that this game would have been very different in my favor. The saving grace of this game was using jaws of the world wolf, which necron's cant get up from (much to my opponents displeasure, but he did roll deny the witch on his initiative 2 warlord), I'll let you know how I progress with this. Maybe i should try this with multiple conscript spam in a larger list, that's coming next.

Ok, another noob question...which warlord table?

Strategy.
Move through cover? you'll always be in it, it's nice.
Night attacker? I get to decide, that's always fun.
Ambush? If you bring Al'Rahem, you can have a better chance of him coming on the correct side. You can also choose you outflank your stromtroopers more accurately if you really need them near the tables edge and don't want to risk a mishap.
Strategic Genius? Yes please, marbo and stormtroopers love it.
Divide to Conquer? Again, depending on who it is, useful or not.
Princeps? Relies on you deploying first to actually mean anything, kinda iffy.

Yeah, strategy.

Personal and command each have a good one or two, but if you don't get those specific ones, then the rest are pretty useless for guard. Meanwhile, strategic ones are almost always at least a little bit useful. It's nice to be able to mess with reserves without having to pay to do so, though at some point in the future I'm going to take an officer of the fleet just to screw up flier lists if I manage to roll divide.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, strategy.

Personal and command each have a good one or two, but if you don't get those specific ones, then the rest are pretty useless for guard. Meanwhile, strategic ones are almost always at least a little bit useful. It's nice to be able to mess with reserves without having to pay to do so, though at some point in the future I'm going to take an officer of the fleet just to screw up flier lists if I manage to roll divide.

Yah, because fliers on 5+ is hilarious.

I have been thinking of running a biomancy primaris. Basicly, I want to roll any of the unit buff spells/ offensive spells. Lowering a unit's toughness so they are wounded on 4s by lasguns would be fun, and IT WILL NOT DIE Leman Russes also sounds entertaining.

minid33 wrote:
I don't really go for a basilisk because min range 36 is very limiting in a game where the opponent starts a minimum of 24 inches from you but it's better for killing hiding vehicles.

They can still shoot under their minimum range, they just don't get to reduce the scatter by their BS if they do.

This seems to be a common mistake these days, maybe I should put it in my sig...

Thanks for the tip!

They can still shoot under their minimum range, they just don't get to reduce the scatter by their BS if they do.

This seems to be a common mistake these days, maybe I should put it in my sig...

Where can I find the specifics on that one? I had this come up last night and all I had in front of me was the Summary that said 36inchs minimum range.

I've noticed there isn't a lot of love the the techpriest engineseer. Is having one hang out as a kinda tank "healer" not a good idea?

I was actually wondering this the other night, I don't think inhave ever seen a techpriest or techmarine in a serious list.

Vhaine wrote:

They can still shoot under their minimum range, they just don't get to reduce the scatter by their BS if they do.

This seems to be a common mistake these days, maybe I should put it in my sig...

Where can I find the specifics on that one? I had this come up last night and all I had in front of me was the Summary that said 36inchs minimum range.

It is all on the barrage page in the rule book. You just have to forget everything you know about barrage from 5th and relearn it, as a lot of the terms now mean slightly different things. 'Direct' and 'indirect' fire have changed meaning a fair bit.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I was actually wondering this the other night, I don't think inhave ever seen a techpriest or techmarine in a serious list.

A techpriest might be okay in an artillery-heavy list, where theres lots of tanks for him to look after. I wouldnt take one in any sort of tournament list though.

On another note, what do people think of our doctrines? Excluding Forward Sentries on Harkers Vets, and demolitions on melta vets, of course. Do they have their uses other than the two examples I listed?

The only one I can see being useful on a somewhat regular basis is Demolitions, just for the melta bombs.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
I was actually wondering this the other night, I don't think inhave ever seen a techpriest or techmarine in a serious list.

A techpriest might be okay in an artillery-heavy list, where theres lots of tanks for him to look after. I wouldnt take one in any sort of tournament list though.

My thought was maybe sticking him in the middle of 3 LRBT to fix. Should keep him out of LOS from all but 1 direction. Not worth the points?

Most likely not worth the points. I suppose it is another way of getting more plasma cannons.

Even if you try to keep him out of LOS, he's still a risk for first blood, and he's still basically a free KP on purge missions. Plus, you only have the chance to fix A hull point per turn, and he never fixes vehicles that have already been wrecked, or suffer an explosion.

Plus, he doesnt' have a great chance to fix things, and once you start loading on servitors, he starts getting really expensive. Expensive enough where if you dropped him and fanangled points from elsewhere, you could probably afford another entire vehicle, which would be better in every way.

Even with the back and forth on Marbo, this thread has been useful. And given me my first sig quote.

I'm returning to the game after a long hiatus, and trying to get my armies in shape.I've been painting since the beginning of the year, but am very slow at it. I could probably field a good Guard army, but whatever understanding I used to have of Guard has disappeared and I don't understand what I am looking at in the codex. All I know is that when playing Guard, I want to field everything. I want the tanks. I want the arty. I want griffons. I want some roughriders. I love 'em all.

How would you guys recommend setting up a list that included rough riders.

I'd start by including as few of them as you can get away with, fluff-wise. Rough riders used to be great when fleet gave you run+charge, and you could assault out of reserves, but now they're really rather not worth it now. Just hide them out of LOS as best as you possibly can and wait for your opponent to bring something scary into close combat (which will probably be a rather rare occurrence in 6th ed). They weren't able to survive a cross-field charge in 5th, and they're certainly not going to now in 6th. A purely defensive unit now.

Well, that's dumb. Out go the Rough Riders, I guess. I always liked the look of them, but ever since I bought them, they've languished in the box, primered, but never painted, doomed to watch others go to the prom, but never getting asked out themselves.

Well, just wait for our next codex. Perhaps they'll be more worth taking then.

Or perhaps 8th ed will let us charge out of reserves again. In any case, your rough riders are a durable good. They won't go bad while they wait to get good.

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, just wait for our next codex. Perhaps they'll be more worth taking then.

Or perhaps 8th ed will let us charge out of reserves again. In any case, your rough riders are a durable good. They won't go bad while they wait to get good.

Straight to 8th huh? No hope for 7th?

I could only see a tech priest being good if you went REALLY overboard on tanks. like, 9 leman russes in under a 2k list crazy.

Then, you take them and drive them back and forth over difficult terrain. As tanks immobilize and fall out of the squadron, you repair them with the tech priests, giving you up to 9 individual Leman Russes that can run around willy nilly.

Obviously, this is an incredibly bad idea as it's incredibly points intensive, but I want to do it at least once just to see my opponents face when my tanks start splitting off and attacking at will

Techpriests are very good in apocalypse, repairing super heavies or (my favourite use) as part of an Emperor's Deliverance manticore formation. Not so good in standard 40k though.

Sad. I really like the model

Yeah. I had a servitor already painted up for him, too. The old Skeleton Astronaut model. I just love the idea of a skeleton astronaut.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Valhalla130 wrote:
Yeah. I had a servitor already painted up for him, too. The old Skeleton Astronaut model. I just love the idea of a skeleton astronaut.

EDIT: Here's a question... any of you Guard players with older models... do you base your heavy weapons, or leave them free like they originally were made? I have a ton of Valhallan and a few Praetorian and Mordian heavy weapons that I need to do something with and basing them is sounding like a good idea just to make everything look uniform.

I know this is IG thread, the only use of a tech priest / marine I have ever considered (as a novelty) is inside a Landraider with a retinue of servitors to keep the Landraider running.

All my IG heavy weapons are the old models. I haven't put any of them on larger bases but I only play friendly games and no one has complained yet. I'm not even sure what size the base is. I did however put all my dreds on bases (used the Epic titan bases, close enough) and I put my termies on larger bases. Kept the bases they were on on and just glued one base on top of the other. Helps hide how short they are

Valhalla130 wrote:do you base your heavy weapons, or leave them free like they originally were made?

Base them.

Im looking to expand my army to 2000 points, and I was wondering; is it actually worth putting veterans in a vendetta? Or should I give the two lots of passengers chimeras?

Im currently running;
Ccs, chimera
vets, chimera x2
Harker vets
vendetta vets x2
Vendetta x2
Demolisher x2

To give you an idea of my armour saturation. Is it worth using the vendettas as lone gunships than veteran-vomiting torpedoes?

Valhalla130 wrote:do you base your heavy weapons, or leave them free like they originally were made?

I've got about 8k in old cadians. I MIGHT get around to rebasing mine when all of them are painted. The only real advantage to do it is that people get less confused around templates..."Yes, I know there's two bases there, but the new rules states they are to be treated as one dude with 2 wounds." I actually let people take 2 hits against the gun due to the fact that I have two models and tbh...I don't mind. The new rules for teams are dumb, but if I get to keep them as two bases it only seems fair to let them take advantage of it.

The reason not to do it are legion. The new bases are huge and the new shooting rules aren't kind to a model that sticks out a full inch further then all of his squad mates. It's easier to keep up with wounds...you just remove the loader from the table. They don't fit in my cases. They don't fit in ANYONE'S terrain. Moving them feels like I'm serving dinner at Denny's. If they really wanted to change them, they should have made them man-portable like the old orlock heavies from necromunda...instead they did what they did and will spend the next few editions trying to undo it. It's just needlessly copmlicates something that was pretty simple before.

I don't understand. Why doesn't the loader just count as a wound?

The rules for weapon's teams changed...like the loader can no longer fire his lasgun like he used to could. IT's a team. One unit within a unit working as a single model. If you have a multibase team, you just remove the loader to represent you've lost a wound. Quick and easy. If they are on a single base you're now in the same boat as all your buddies who carry around extra dice and funky counters for their greater demons. You've got to use rubber bands, dice, markers, or wtf ever to represent those wounds in such a way that people can track it. It's makes a board already loaded with 100 friendly modles that much more crouded.

The confusion in using two bases for a team comes in when you do something like place a flamer template. It's covering the guy on the gun and the loader who are both on seperate bases. Now your opponent wants to roll 2 wounds. I'm pretty sure in the new rules, using the new bases, he'd only actually get one wound because it's actually supposed to be a single model with 2 wounds. It's sorta like squig stands or nurglings. In this situation the bases are to your advantage. I don't want to rebase my models so I allow my opponents to take both wounds. I think it's a fair trade off, but in no way official.

GW is saying use the bases they came with...but not really thinking it through. If they were, they'd give us rules on how to treat our multi-base heavy weapons squads since I know alot of guys who multibased heavy weapon squads even after the new cadians came out.

There are other things as well. For example, a PCS that gets killed down to one guy can rally normally, rather than at insane heroism, because there were only 4 models in the squad once two become a single heavy weapons team. Also, they suffer instant death from S6+ weapons.

It really isn't just two dudes any more.

That's a really good point, but it's easy to miss in the rules because they often says 2 men can form a team. In reality what's happening is 1 man is being canablized to give this new gun 2 wounds. You have to think of the squads at actually 9 guys when you have a heavy weapon.

A Heavy Weapons team is two models, regardless of the number of bases they're on. Hitting them with a flamer or any other kind of weapon would do damage to the team, and if you only lose one wound, you remove the loader to show that. They should always be together anyway, so I don't understand the confusion here. Maybe I just haven't read the new rules on that enough. I'll get back to you.

Yeah, you've got to read that again. Go look at page 38 of your codex.

Two W1 models becomes a single W2 model.

If you're going to keep your gunner and loader as separate models, then it would be more accurate to leave the loader off the table and just say that the gunner has two wounds.

My plan was to have one base that the loader sat on top of. That would represent the wound accurately enough, I would think. As long as I understood the rules (still thinking from a 3rd ed mindset here) well enough, there shouldn't be that much confusion, I would hope. But see... stuff like this is why I've put the guard on the backburner.

If you're going to keep your gunner and loader as separate models, then it would be more accurate to leave the loader off the table and just say that the gunner has two wounds.

I've considered doing this...

Problem with this is then they have a much smaller footprint which your opponent might be upset about.

That was the reason I opted not to do it. It felt to much like taking and giving nothing in return. You put another model on the board...and while the base may not be as large new models at least it's a bigger foot print to work with. I started collecting in 1994. I can remember at some point gw was selling missile launcher with cav bases. Sometimes they sold the weapons with no bases. Until recently, they never really got it all together in that regard.

Until I rebase, I think I'll make a point of keeping my loaders in base to their guns. You put a cav base and a normal base next to each other and it may not be as big as the current bases, but you're still taking up alot of space.

or just buy big bases and lay them on like I do, or get something else that's roughly 60mm and circular. You don't have to glue anything down.

If i do put mine on big bases I'll probably do that. Not like I move them a great deal during a game

Maybe a big base with with a smaller base cutout to set the loader's base into? Then you could claim the team as one "model" but still remove the loader to represent losing a wound.

And stick magnets in em so they don't fall off when you move the buggers.

Good idea. Now... back to Ig Tactics!

Somebody tell me how to incorporate giant groups of infantry with Leman Russ' and Demolishers.

/Leman Russ's?
//Leman Russes?

There's nothing particular to it. Just field them both.

At the moment, I'm seeing russes as a multimelta/lascannon delivery system (because my meltagun/lascannon spam in the infantry just doesn't quite cut it), and so I'm choosing a turret that doesn't cause a conflict now that they got rid of lumbering behemoth.

For myself, I'm going with the punisher, but I'd begrudgingly accept exterminators for price reasons.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know, my way of scaling things has been changing over time. I really don't consider it an anti-AV12 weapon anymore unless it's S8 Ap1, S9 Ap2, or S10.

After half a rules edition of trying to peel paint with autocannons and missile launchers, I just want to shoot AV12 and have it just friggin die already.

its true, Dark Lances are terrible at killing AV12

 Exergy wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
You know, my way of scaling things has been changing over time. I really don't consider it an anti-AV12 weapon anymore unless it's S8 Ap1, S9 Ap2, or S10.

After half a rules edition of trying to peel paint with autocannons and missile launchers, I just want to shoot AV12 and have it just friggin die already.

its true, Dark Lances are terrible at killing AV12

IG doesn't get Dark lances. We get autocannons, meltaguns, plasma, lascannons, and missile launchers as our only serious infantry carried antitank weapons.

Meltas kill all armor up close.

Plasma kills light armor at fairly close.

Autocannons kill light armor at range.

Lascannons kill heavier armor at range.

Missiles fail at everything.

I guarantee you that if IG had access to lances, we would spam the hell out of them, but we don't. When looking at Anti tank from a purely IG perspective, Ailaros pretty much has it covered. It better be so strong that it's always penning, or have an AP bonus so that when it does pen, it can actually do damage. Hence why a lot of people are getting frustrated with autocannons (like myself) They don't have a high enough strength to really cut through armor most of the time, and by the time you've got enough glances to kill something, said unit has either done its job or eaten half your army's shots on the first turn, both of which are bad.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Missiles fail at everything.

...

 TheCaptain wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Missiles fail at everything.

...

You knew full well what you were getting into when you bought those. You only brought it on yourself

Well, who knows? Maybe in the next codex they'll get access to flakk missiles for +5 points per launcher.

... nope, would still rather take lascannons...

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, who knows? Maybe in the next codex they'll get access to flakk missiles for +5 points per launcher.

... nope, would still rather take lascannons...

I don't know, I might take a HWS of them...

Maybe...

 Happygrunt wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, who knows? Maybe in the next codex they'll get access to flakk missiles for +5 points per launcher.

... nope, would still rather take lascannons...

I don't know, I might take a HWS of them...

Maybe...

If they stayed at 15pts and gained flak missiles, I think they would have a good middle ground, as they would be the "swiss army knife" option of the heavy weapons. Mortars give you infantry carried barrage weapons, heavy bolters give you (terrible) anti horde, autocannons are for hitting harder infantry and light vehicles, Lascannons would be for killing heavier vehicles/infantry/creatures, and a missile launcher would be a well rounded, utility weapon. It can spit out templates, provide a reasonable threat to armor, and would even allow a modest AA ability.

at 15pts, it wouldn't be a must take, but if you were thinking "well, I have no idea what I'll run into today." It would actually make it a halfway tempting choice. I would go from taking white out to that entry in the codex to actually considering it at least

Breaks my heart that it's the best heavy weapon Elysian Guard gets.

FML

It hurts that I think the missile launchers and grenades launchers are some of the best sculpts the Valhallans have.

Why are those guy's carrying coffee tins? They must be headed to a daybreak mission and didn't want to get groggy during the attack.

Java is the most important thing to remember when heading to a nightmare warzone on the other side of the galaxy.

 amrogers3 wrote:
Have never run IG before. Are there any tricks/tactics/tip for IG list building and running an IG army?

In my own personal experience, everytime i beef up my vets with plasma, GL, Meltas, it always seems the Lasguns that get the kill shots ( against non-Vehicles that is ) lol, my oppenent will almost always save against the plasmas ( if they can ) same with the GLs and Meltas, But the damn lasguns or just that last lasgun shot always ends up wounding lol. Its halarious but also disheartning lol

 Diezel wrote:

 amrogers3 wrote:
Have never run IG before. Are there any tricks/tactics/tip for IG list building and running an IG army?

In my own personal experience, everytime i beef up my vets with plasma, GL, Meltas, it always seems the Lasguns that get the kill shots ( against non-Vehicles that is ) lol, my oppenent will almost always save against the plasmas ( if they can ) same with the GLs and Meltas, But the damn lasguns or just that last lasgun shot always ends up wounding lol. Its halarious but also disheartning lol

Math and probability disagrees with your disproportionate luck.

Anecdotal experience based on wildly unlikely odds does not make good advice.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Diezel wrote:

 amrogers3 wrote:
Have never run IG before. Are there any tricks/tactics/tip for IG list building and running an IG army?

In my own personal experience, everytime i beef up my vets with plasma, GL, Meltas, it always seems the Lasguns that get the kill shots ( against non-Vehicles that is ) lol, my oppenent will almost always save against the plasmas ( if they can ) same with the GLs and Meltas, But the damn lasguns or just that last lasgun shot always ends up wounding lol. Its halarious but also disheartning lol

Math and probability disagrees with your disproportionate luck.

Anecdotal experience based on wildly unlikely odds does not make good advice.

It was more of a comment then advice if you actually read it
and considering the fact your bound to fail a save if your made to roll for it enough times, that makes you wrong. Its just the way it works out that my special weapons dont seem to be the lucky one in that instance.

Thanks for coming out though

In my last 5 games I've had atleast 50% of my plasma guys kill themselves off in the first round of shooting. They still end up killing more points than I paid for em.
I've had my melta hedge do nothing for those games except put a (saved) wound on a biker.
I've had 50 lasgun shots kill nothing, only for a sergeant to turn around and headshot something.
I've had marbo kill off 6 worldeater plasmacannons guys in a turn, tabling the opponent, and he's done no wounds against the 20 guardsmen in his large blast.
I've had stormtroopers...erm... kill a rhino. No-one here likes to play with armour apparently.

The dice gods are fickle things.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
You know, my way of scaling things has been changing over time. I really don't consider it an anti-AV12 weapon anymore unless it's S8 Ap1, S9 Ap2, or S10.

After half a rules edition of trying to peel paint with autocannons and missile launchers, I just want to shoot AV12 and have it just friggin die already.

its true, Dark Lances are terrible at killing AV12

IG doesn't get Dark lances. We get autocannons, meltaguns, plasma, lascannons, and missile launchers as our only serious infantry carried antitank weapons.

Meltas kill all armor up close.
Plasma kills light armor at fairly close.
Autocannons kill light armor at range.
Lascannons kill heavier armor at range.
Missiles fail at everything.

I guarantee you that if IG had access to lances, we would spam the hell out of them, but we don't. When looking at Anti tank from a purely IG perspective, Ailaros pretty much has it covered. It better be so strong that it's always penning, or have an AP bonus so that when it does pen, it can actually do damage. Hence why a lot of people are getting frustrated with autocannons (like myself) They don't have a high enough strength to really cut through armor most of the time, and by the time you've got enough glances to kill something, said unit has either done its job or eaten half your army's shots on the first turn, both of which are bad.

yeah, I get it. I was merely noting that the DL, the anti tank weapon of choice for DE, isnt even very good at killing AV12 which is what Ailaros was saying. Missile launchers are worse than dark lances, so they arent good at AV12 either. Lascannons and melta(outside melta range) are better than DL, so they are ok at killing av12.

 Diezel wrote:


It was more of a comment then advice if you actually read it
and considering the fact your bound to fail a save if your made to roll for it enough times, that makes you wrong. Its just the way it works out that my special weapons dont seem to be the lucky one in that instance.

Thanks for coming out though

I'm not even going to touch the amount of fallacies and false logic are involved in your statement.

Just carry on with your lasguns.



Some math for you, though.

Lasgun guardsman costs 5 points. Kills a Space Marine 5% of the time with one shot.

Plasmagun guardsman costs 20 points. Kills a Space Marine 41% of the time with one shot.


So no, I'm definitely right. Math favors the plasmagun.

considering the fact your bound to fail a save if your made to roll for it enough times, that makes you wrong

No.

If you saturate lasguns, of course they will kill something. But that doesn't make it the smart thing to do.

That's like saying Missile Launchers are Land Raider-killers.

Maybe not all the time, but in March, I was regularly playing against a guy who ran 4 land raiders and with the models I had, it seemed I reliably killed one LR a game (in fact, usually the only LR a game) with one of my SM missile launchers. Granted, they had a higher BS, so that helped, but if it connects, it does have the chance to kill one. Just... a hellaciously slim chance.

So, all I'll say about luck is this. Statistics show what happens in the world of large numbers (specifically, an infinite number of them). In the real world, though, we have fewer events. Many fewer. As such, the smaller the numbers we're talking about, the more that what we're looking at is vulnerable to trends. Even if, on average, a demolisher cannon will hit its target half the time, it is very possible to miss with all 5 shots, or hit with all of them (I've seen both of these personally) over the course of a game. Likewise, it's possible to have things trend over several games.

As such, talking about tactics requires objectivity for the purpose of dialogue (I shouldn't necessarily take something in my army just because you're lucky with them, for example), but there is a little wiggle room in here. In the end, you've got to go with whatever you're lucky with. Might as well ride the trends, rather than fight them.