Anyways, Ive got 515 points to play with on my road to 1999+1, and im unsure on how to spend them.
My list is as follows;
Plasma ccs with Pp on commander in chimera
3x plasma vet units in chimeras
2x melta veta units riding in the vendettas
2x vendettas
2x bolter boat exterminators
My fluff is that of a fast moving search and destroy force that knocks out vital fuel depots and bases rather than full scale battles if that helps.
Obviously storm troopers and the like are very fluffy, but im unsure.
As far as anything else goes, im rather limited by room. I have room left for 17 infantry models, and either 6 chimera chassis or 4 russ chassis (or a mixture thereof)
Total of 510 points. If you drop the two Exterminators for another pair of Medusas you can include an aegis line (and mess with the points a bit more to add the quad gun). If you aren't allowed to use FW units, you can take a third Vendetta instead of the Vulture, put the third melta vet squad in it instead of in a Chimera, and definitely bring an aegis line + quad gun.
Im rather fond of the exterminators, theyve served me well so far.
I would grab another flyer, however, I simply dont have the room to transport it.
Ill take marbo into account, as he fits my fluff as a scout, as well as the melta vets. However, I cant see the medusas in my list, from a fluff standpoint at least, being a static artillery piece. The same goes for the aegis.
Thanks for the suggestions Peregrine, but is there any more that you could say?
Convert your Agies to look like a quickly snapped together cordon set up at the last minute to slow down your enemy so you can excute them when they flee. Don't forget the Medusa isn't a static piece of Artillery it can't fire indirect and its used when laying seige to an enemy outpost.
Sinji wrote: Convert your Agies to look like a quickly snapped together cordon set up at the last minute to slow down your enemy so you can excute them when they flee. Don't forget the Medusa isn't a static piece of Artillery it can't fire indirect and its used when laying seige to an enemy outpost.
It is however part of a siege battery which I dont think fits a rapid response kill team.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One squad of 5 melta storm troopers, marbo, and 2 demolishers is bang on 500 and I quite like the sound of it. What should I do with my last 15? Melta bombs on vet squads?
So I took a stab at another 1750 pt list. How's it look? Also, ultimately I'd like to field more tanks (Medusas, Manticores, LRBT) since that's the main reason I picked up the army, so how would you modify it for that?
2x Vendettas w/HB - 280
Inside Vendettas are Vet Squad, power weapon, 3x melta, and Vet sq w/ P.weapon, 3x plasma - 235
2x Manticores - 320
The two combined Infantry squads are to lay down fire, while the extra lone squads bubble wrap the Manticores. Lascannons help with any armor coming my way, as will the Vendettas. Manticores sit and shoot. Viable?
Afrodactyl wrote: Thanks for the suggestions Peregrine, but is there any more that you could say?
Not really, unless you post a list of what units are acceptable according to your fluff.
Tiarna Fuilteach wrote: HQ CCS Power Sword
Carapace
Astropath
Master of the Fleet
Master of Ordnance
Nork Deddog
This is a garbage unit. Nork is overpriced garbage and should never be used, the astropath is worthless since you have no reserves, the MotF is probably a bad idea unless you have a specific opponent in mind, and carapace + power sword are just throwing away points on a unit that is already doing nothing helpful. Replace this with a CCS with 4x melta or 4x plasma in a Chimera.
Troops
Veterans
Grenadiers
3 Plasmas
Chimera
Not bad, but grenadiers is a waste since guardsmen die quickly anyway. Spend those 30 points on more shooting. Also, you need at least two of these or you don't have a legal army.
Fast Attack
Mukaali
Plasma Pistol
Garbage unit. Rough riders are bad, and Mukaali rough riders cost twice as many points for the same number of attacks while doing very little to fix the fundamental problem with rough riders, that you get shot to death by bolters before you get to charge. Replace these with a Vendetta.
Heavy Support
Sabre Defenxe Platform
TL Lascannon
Not legal. Sabre platforms are part of an infantry platoon, not a heavy support unit. You need to get the rules for your army before you start making a list.
Elites
Furioso Libbie
Why? What is this adding to your list? In fact, what are BA adding at all?
Cruz wrote: So basically, take another Vendetta for the PCS and just use them as a scoring unit, since I'm better off taking orders from the CCS?
Exactly. You use them as a scoring unit with 4x flamers to kill stuff and a point cost so low that you're not afraid to use it aggressively.
Ok, got it. However, if the PCS goes in another Vendetta, the whole unit has to start in reserves, correct? Will that be a big hindrance?
Platoons do not go into reserves together. This rumor was due to an unfortunate misinterpretation of the FAQ.
Ah, thanks much. Anyway, here's a revised list. Had to change it up a bit with the suggestions:
CCS w/ AC - 60 (removed voxes since the Commissars allow their leadership to be used)
ADL for CCS - 50
Platoon - 360
PCS w/ 4 flamers
Infantry sq w/ Commissar, AC combined with Infantry sq w/AC Infantry sq
Heavy Weapons w/ 3 Lascannons
Platoon - 325
PCS w/ 3 flamers
Infantry sq w/ Commissar, AC combined with Infantry sq w/AC Infantry sq
Heavy Weapons w/ 3 AC
3x Vendettas (not a squadron) w/HB - 420
PCS in one, Vet squads in other 2
Vet squad - 3x melta - 100
Vet dqaud - 3x plasma - 115
2x Manticores - 320
That puts me at 1750 exactly. The PCS with 3 flamers won't get a transport since there's not enough points, and this still leave the infantry squads covering the Manticores plain. Is there something inherently wrong with this list, am I trying too much with it?
As far as my fluff goes, its just either high precision-high power units, fast units, and russes for shock and awe; anything that you could imagine blasting into a depot or an air base or whatever, trashing the gaff and then turning tail once theyve destroyed something/one important, or just putting the frighteners on them.
At the moment for my 500, Ive decided on meltacide stormies, marbo and a pair of demolishers.
Im just a little unsure of how to spend the last 15 points.
Afrodactyl wrote: As far as my fluff goes, its just either high precision-high power units, fast units, and russes for shock and awe; anything that you could imagine blasting into a depot or an air base or whatever, trashing the gaff and then turning tail once theyve destroyed something/one important, or just putting the frighteners on them.
I mean a list of specific units that you're willing to use. That fluff concept doesn't tell us anything, since it would exclude your Leman Russes (a slow vehicle designed for open-field battles) and LR Demolishers (a slow vehicle designed for grinding block-by-block street fighting) just as well as it excludes the Medusa.
Afrodactyl wrote: As far as my fluff goes, its just either high precision-high power units, fast units, and russes for shock and awe; anything that you could imagine blasting into a depot or an air base or whatever, trashing the gaff and then turning tail once theyve destroyed something/one important, or just putting the frighteners on them.
I mean a list of specific units that you're willing to use. That fluff concept doesn't tell us anything, since it would exclude your Leman Russes (a slow vehicle designed for open-field battles) and LR Demolishers (a slow vehicle designed for grinding block-by-block street fighting) just as well as it excludes the Medusa.
Yeah, my fluff isnt 100%, but Im working on it.
CCS's
Veterans
Storm Troopers
Marbo
Hellhound variants
Valkyrie variants (I am however limited to a max of two, which I already have)
Russes (My justification being that they are designed to remain mobile whilst shelling rather than being static artillery)
I know that there isnt a lot to work with, but I want to inject more fluff after using a competitive core for the list.
Afrodactyl wrote: Russes (My justification being that they are designed to remain mobile whilst shelling rather than being static artillery)
So are Medusas, which can also move 12" and flat out, making them much faster than Leman Russes of any kind. A Medusa is just a faster LR Demolisher with paper armor, so if the LR Demolisher is acceptable then the Medusa should be as well. Likewise for a LR Exterminator, which is about as far from a fast behind enemy lines type unit as you can get.
Happygrunt wrote: Would a 1500-1850 list be okay with one vendetta? I am running a mostly mechanized list now and am trying to fix my guard army on a budget.
One is better than none, but you probably want 2-3 when you're playing at a point level where you can afford them. One will obviously be good against vehicles and provide decent AA against the people who bring a random flyer or two, but against lists that bring more flyers (or where you really need to kill the flyers asap) a single Vendetta is going to fall short.
Alright, thanks. One is about all I can afford at the moment as I am trying to scrape enough cash together so I can get a fourth Chimera, because right now I have a Foot CCS in my mech list.
Right now, I am looking like I will have (not an exact list, but a general idea):
A CCS with a lascannon and 2 plasma guns, Captain with a PP A Primaris Psyker
Marbo
2 plasma vets in chimeras
1 melta vet in a chimera
The Harker squad (plasma)
A vendetta
Pask-exterminator
Either a Demolisher, LRBT or Executioner
ADL with Quadgun
I also have a squad of melta stormtroopers, a PBS (Not the most effective unit in the world, but I LOVE running them) and some GK that I run as allies from time to time. My goal is to eventually get another chimera for the Command squad. This is actually using all the models I own as well, so I am kinda stuck with this, but these guys have work so far, so I am not too upset.
Let me try shifting gears here, and try a mech list, since that's what interested me in IG anyway. Again, 1,750 pts:
CCS - 3x plasma in a Chimera w/multi laser and heavy flamer - 165
2x Plasma Vet Sqaud in a Chimera w/multi laser and heavy flamer - 340
2x Plasma Vet Squad in a Chimera w/multi laser and heavy flamer - 310
Plasma Vet Squad in a Valkyrie w/ HB sponsons - 225
2x Vendettas with heavy bolters (not in a squadron) - 280
2x Medusas (not in a squadron) - 270
1x Manticore, which I've considered swapping out for a Basilisk. But to be honest, I really, really like the idea of big missile tanks. 160
Exactly 1750 points. I'm still going through the thread, so I apologize if something like this has been brought up a lot. My plan for this list would be, get the troops to the objectives, harassing things along the way, while the Vendettas go after any heavy armor. Medusas help against armor, too, as well as with any hordes, which the Manticore helps with while sitting in cover.
kestril wrote: Really it's target priority. Know what to shoot, when to shoot it, and with what weapon.
For example, pop transports with autocannons or Heavy weapons, then use either artillary or the trusty leman russ battle tank to cast " AP 3 Large blast" on the infantry which were riding in side.
If you get target priority down, half the battle is already won.
well said, guards all about knowing what to shoot and with what, and having the right mix of guns in your army.
that being said, you can have an all BS 4 guard army, at 7pts a model for the vets, they shoot just as well as marines... even though they die just like normal guard.. i find it to be fairly effective when they are in chimeras and a little more... survivable... even then though...lemen russ spam FTW
Cruz wrote: CCS - 3x plasma in a Chimera w/multi laser and heavy flamer - 165
Needs four guns. Either trim a few points somewhere and add a 4th plasma gun, or trade them all for 4x melta (which gives you some non-flyer anti-tank).
Plasma Vet Squad in a Valkyrie w/ HB sponsons - 225
2x Vendettas with heavy bolters (not in a squadron) - 280
Drop the HBs so you can upgrade the third flyer to a Vendetta, or at least a Valkyrie with MRPs (if you really want the extra anti-infantry shooting to replace the HBs). Valkyries with hellstrike missiles are terrible, you want to avoid them if at all possible.
Cruz wrote: CCS - 3x plasma in a Chimera w/multi laser and heavy flamer - 165
Needs four guns. Either trim a few points somewhere and add a 4th plasma gun, or trade them all for 4x melta (which gives you some non-flyer anti-tank).
Plasma Vet Squad in a Valkyrie w/ HB sponsons - 225
2x Vendettas with heavy bolters (not in a squadron) - 280
Drop the HBs so you can upgrade the third flyer to a Vendetta, or at least a Valkyrie with MRPs (if you really want the extra anti-infantry shooting to replace the HBs). Valkyries with hellstrike missiles are terrible, you want to avoid them if at all possible.
Other than that, it looks alright.
Oops, that was supposed to be 4 plasma, not 3. A CCS with 4 plasma vets in a Chimera is 165 pts. With HBs dropped off the Valkyrie, I'll be 20 pts short of making it a Vendetta. However, if I do make the CCS Vets meltas, I can take a Vendetta for the 3rd group of plasma vets without an HB. So, the revised list would look like:
CCS w/ 4 meltas in a chimera, ML and HF - 145
2x Vets w/3 plasma in a chimera, ML/HF - 340
2x Vets w/3 melta in a chimera, ML/HF - 310
2x Vendetta w/HB - 280
Vendetta - 130
Vets w/3 plasma to go in a Vendetta - 115
2x Medusas - 270
1x Manticore - 160
Again, exactly 1750.
Now, even though I really like Manticores for fluff reasons, I'm gonna take a look at it tomorrow and possibly consider trading it for artillery or maybe a battle tank, not sure. It's not giving a lot of points back, but it gives me room if I want to shuffle things around. I might try this list this weekend, see how I like it.
Cruz wrote: With HBs dropped off the Valkyrie, I'll be 20 pts short of making it a Vendetta.
What I meant was pull all three sets of HB sponsons off the gunships and use the 30 points to upgrade the Valkyrie to MRPs or a Vendetta. Though a melta CCS gets the job done as well.
Now, even though I really like Manticores for fluff reasons, I'm gonna take a look at it tomorrow and possibly consider trading it for artillery or maybe a battle tank, not sure. It's not giving a lot of points back, but it gives me room if I want to shuffle things around. I might try this list this weekend, see how I like it.
Three Medusas would simplify things and add some more target saturation, as well as giving you a few more points to adjust your special weapon choices a bit.
CCS w/ 4 meltas in a chimera, ML and HF - 145
2x Vets w/3 plasma in a chimera, ML/HF - 340
2x Vets w/3 melta in a chimera, ML/HF - 310
2x Vendetta w/HB - 280
Vendetta - 130
Vets w/3 plasma to go in a Vendetta - 115
2x Medusas - 270
1x Manticore - 160
Again, exactly 1750.
Now, even though I really like Manticores for fluff reasons, I'm gonna take a look at it tomorrow and possibly consider trading it for artillery or maybe a battle tank, not sure. It's not giving a lot of points back, but it gives me room if I want to shuffle things around. I might try this list this weekend, see how I like it.
Much better list. Quite solid.
That said, I'd hang onto the manticore. You're severely lacking in anti-horde without it, and Green tide or Tervi-spam would have its way with you.
The manticore keeps the list TAC. Ties it all together.
Sort of. The rules are pretty clearly explained in the rulebook.
And what's so bad about exterminators. I know they're not great, what with being stuck with autocannons, but they ARE cheap, and better than the only other tank that shares its cost.
Ailaros wrote: Sort of. The rules are pretty clearly explained in the rulebook.
And what's so bad about exterminators. I know they're not great, what with being stuck with autocannons, but they ARE cheap, and better than the only other tank that shares its cost.
Its for fluff purposes. Ill be replacing them with Hellhounds
I think I have a nice balance here. I have 5 plasma delivery systems, and 4 melta, alongside 9 heavy flamers and 3 inferno cannons.
I also think that Ive worked in my fluff well; lots of fast moving, high threat units with a great deal of precision. The carapace CCS is going to be modelled using the valkyrie door gunners, and will be a Storm Trooper command unit.
This fluff in mind, does my list look good for the style I want to achieve?
I think I have a nice balance here. I have 5 plasma delivery systems, and 4 melta, alongside 9 heavy flamers and 3 inferno cannons.
I also think that Ive worked in my fluff well; lots of fast moving, high threat units with a great deal of precision. The carapace CCS is going to be modelled using the valkyrie door gunners, and will be a Storm Trooper command unit.
This fluff in mind, does my list look good for the style I want to achieve?
You have no anti-horde.
I'd ditch the Hellhound and run some form of artillery. Your chimeras with HHF will perform fine as Ghetto-hellhounds; your problem will be things like Gaunt-spam and Green-tide.
A manticore would synergize nicely with this list.
The fluff Ive attached to my list dictates that my units need to be fast and precise (description wise), for use in lightning raids against camps/depots/whatever. This means things like armoured fist squads, vendettas, storm troopers and other fast/scout vehicles. This sadly rules out artillery pieces like medusae, bassies, manticores and russes (which after the brief discussion above with Peregrine, I have decided is too slow for what Im after).
I would have reckoned that a large number of templates (9 heavy flamers and 3 inferno cannons) going tearing forwards would be ample anti-horde, when combined with the various other weapons I have at my disposal. Also, when faced with a true tide list, space becomes an issue, so I can either use my (moderately) superior manueverability to bottleneck them and tackle them 1-2 at a time, or they bunch up to make room, making my hounds more effective.
I would have reckoned that a large number of templates (9 heavy flamers and 3 inferno cannons) going tearing forwards would be ample anti-horde, when combined with the various other weapons I have at my disposal. Also, when faced with a true tide list, space becomes an issue, so I can either use my (moderately) superior manueverability to bottleneck them and tackle them 1-2 at a time, or they bunch up to make room, making my hounds more effective.
In theory at least.
The problem being that, effectively, you only have 1 inferno cannon at 1500, and 3 inferno cannons at 2000. Your HHFs are more defensive/for pushing off objective campers. You don't want them (Chimeras) rushing hordes, because they will get popped, and the guys inside: shredded.
I stand by my suggestion of the manticore; if only because it will provide STR10, an important factor you are lacking, as well as the obvious horde utility.
That said; Manticores are long-range ballistic missiles; if you were to tuck it into the backfield while the entire rest of your line rushes up; you'd be fluffy in dictating that it is simply some miles away, barraging your targets.
Up to you; but either way, you're short consistent anti-horde, and Str10 instant death. Something to either fix, or consider when you play games.
I would have reckoned that a large number of templates (9 heavy flamers and 3 inferno cannons) going tearing forwards would be ample anti-horde, when combined with the various other weapons I have at my disposal. Also, when faced with a true tide list, space becomes an issue, so I can either use my (moderately) superior manueverability to bottleneck them and tackle them 1-2 at a time, or they bunch up to make room, making my hounds more effective.
In theory at least.
The problem being that, effectively, you only have 1 inferno cannon at 1500, and 3 inferno cannons at 2000. Your HHFs are more defensive/for pushing off objective campers. You don't want them (Chimeras) rushing hordes, because they will get popped, and the guys inside: shredded.
I stand by my suggestion of the manticore; if only because it will provide STR10, an important factor you are lacking, as well as the obvious horde utility.
That said; Manticores are long-range ballistic missiles; if you were to tuck it into the backfield while the entire rest of your line rushes up; you'd be fluffy in dictating that it is simply some miles away, barraging your targets.
Up to you; but either way, you're short consistent anti-horde, and Str10 instant death. Something to either fix, or consider when you play games.
Cheers,
-Capt
All valid points which will be taken into consideration. Im going to stick with this list for now, and give it some test runs before I decide on what needs to change. Thanks for the fast replies on this one
:EDIT:
Id just like to point out that im not an overly competitive gamer (I forgot to mention this haha). My flgs is pretty much me, my roomie, and the store owner (who has a few lists and models for every army going), so Im not expecting to go to big tournaments with this list. My roomie and I have decided to write full fluff out for each of our forces, the army being based on the fluff, so competitiveness isnt as big an issue as it is for most. Of course I like to win, hence the multitude of plasma and the like, but I also like to have a slight weakness to add challenge.
Another quick point; my remedy for anti-horde so far has been to get my vets halfway up the board, disembark them, and then go barreling into single squads with multiple chimerae haha.
Check out this link, you can get a resin upgrade kit for anything on a Chimera Chasis to make it a 6 wheeled mean machine. If yoh get a Manticore and give it the 6 wheels it will look like a fast responce vehicle which would fit your fluff and fill some big holes in your list
? There's 6 chimeras and a hellhound, with points left over for sponson bolters for a vendetta. That's 15 heavy bolters and a torrent heavy flamer. Plus, a fair amount of lasguns as well.
Not going to win anti-horde list of the year by any stretch of the imagination, but it doesn't have NO anti-horde.
I've run Hellhounds and Bane Wolves a lot actually but I have to admit that the Manticore is better it is decent against more than just horde, has a far longer range so can kill things without being within range of return fire and being indirect it can snipe important models from a unit.
EmilCrane wrote: A hellhound is anti horde, have any of you guys ever actually used one?
It really isn't. It can help with anti-horde, but its main job is dealing with medium-size units that have cover bonuses (Eldar rangers, Harker squads, etc). Against true hordes you just can't get enough models under the template compared to a Manticore/Griffon squadron/etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheCaptain wrote: Up to you; but either way, you're short consistent anti-horde, and Str10 instant death. Something to either fix, or consider when you play games.
One partial solution would be to add an Avenger or two with hellfury missiles. Sure, it's one-shot anti-horde but that's two no-cover blast templates and 7 shots from the main gun, and a pair of BS 4 lascannons to replace the Manticore's anti-vehicle shots when there aren't any hordes to worry about. And, as a ground-attack fighter, it's very fluffy.
TheCaptain wrote: Up to you; but either way, you're short consistent anti-horde, and Str10 instant death. Something to either fix, or consider when you play games.
One partial solution would be to add an Avenger or two with hellfury missiles. Sure, it's one-shot anti-horde but that's two no-cover blast templates and 7 shots from the main gun, and a pair of BS 4 lascannons to replace the Manticore's anti-vehicle shots when there aren't any hordes to worry about. And, as a ground-attack fighter, it's very fluffy.
Stop reminding me of thinks I want but can't afford.
I always thought the Avenger was more of an Anti-tank weapon myself. I mean, it seems to be based of the A-10, which is primarily meant to kill tanks.
I have a question. Are two Leman Russ (LRBT/Demolisher) tanks too much at the 750 pt level? I posted my list a bit back but I'm starting to have doubts about it. I mean, that much AV14 is pretty good but I'm hurt for troops choices. I'm thinking of just taking a bolter boat punisher and calling it a day.
TheCaptain wrote: Up to you; but either way, you're short consistent anti-horde, and Str10 instant death. Something to either fix, or consider when you play games.
One partial solution would be to add an Avenger or two with hellfury missiles. Sure, it's one-shot anti-horde but that's two no-cover blast templates and 7 shots from the main gun, and a pair of BS 4 lascannons to replace the Manticore's anti-vehicle shots when there aren't any hordes to worry about. And, as a ground-attack fighter, it's very fluffy.
Stop reminding me of thinks I want but can't afford.
I always thought the Avenger was more of an Anti-tank weapon myself. I mean, it seems to be based of the A-10, which is primarily meant to kill tanks.
It's "supposed" to be an Anti-Light Tank strike vehicle, but it can take the Hellfury missiles, which I adore. It's incredibly dumb to put them on a Vendetta, but Elysians can take them on Thunderbolts, and they are a fantastic Horde-solution.
C:IG can only take them on Avengers (and vendettas, but I've covered that), and they are a great choice.
TheCustomLime wrote: I have a question. Are two Leman Russ (LRBT/Demolisher) tanks too much at the 750 pt level? I posted my list a bit back but I'm starting to have doubts about it. I mean, that much AV14 is pretty good but I'm hurt for troops choices. I'm thinking of just taking a bolter boat punisher and calling it a day.
Well, yes. You will be hurting for points and targets at 750 with a leman russ. Take one if you must, but no more.
TheCustomLime wrote: I have a question. Are two Leman Russ (LRBT/Demolisher) tanks too much at the 750 pt level? I posted my list a bit back but I'm starting to have doubts about it. I mean, that much AV14 is pretty good but I'm hurt for troops choices. I'm thinking of just taking a bolter boat punisher and calling it a day.
Well, yes. You will be hurting for points and targets at 750 with a leman russ. Take one if you must, but no more.
On the contrary; I don't think so. It will pack in quite a solid bit of firepower to your list, and on an AV14 frame that few 750pt lists can deal with.
Two will be, frankly, too much for them to handle in most cases. In 500, I always bring a demolisher. In 750, I don't see why you wouldn't bring two Leman Russes.
Happygrunt wrote: I always thought the Avenger was more of an Anti-tank weapon myself. I mean, it seems to be based of the A-10, which is primarily meant to kill tanks.
It's anti-tank, because you have flyer mobility to get two BS 4 lascannons and seven shots of STR 6 into side/rear armor. Just like a real A-10, which attacks the weak points on a tank, not frontal armor.
Though really the Avenger is good anti-everything: volume of fire and hellfuries for anti-horde, lots of AP 3 for anti-MEQ, decent anti-tank. If you take an Avenger with hellfury missiles you're pretty much guaranteed to have good targets for it.
TheCustomLime wrote: I have a question. Are two Leman Russ (LRBT/Demolisher) tanks too much at the 750 pt level? I posted my list a bit back but I'm starting to have doubts about it. I mean, that much AV14 is pretty good but I'm hurt for troops choices. I'm thinking of just taking a bolter boat punisher and calling it a day.
Dual AV 14 and two AV 12 threats is hard to deal with for most 750 point armies, and the camo cloak squad sits on an objective in cover and scares anyone away from trying to claim it. Or try this for a variation:
TheCustomLime wrote: I have a question. Are two Leman Russ (LRBT/Demolisher) tanks too much at the 750 pt level? I posted my list a bit back but I'm starting to have doubts about it. I mean, that much AV14 is pretty good but I'm hurt for troops choices. I'm thinking of just taking a bolter boat punisher and calling it a day.
Dual AV 14 and two AV 12 threats is hard to deal with for most 750 point armies, and the camo cloak squad sits on an objective in cover and scares anyone away from trying to claim it. Or try this for a variation:
Loses AV 14, but Medusas always have something to shoot, and that's a nasty wall of AV 12 for such a small game.
My list is actually very similar to the former one:
HQ:
CCS:
2x Plasma
Lascannon
Troops:
Veterans
3x Meltaguns
Chimera
Veterans
3x Plasma Guns
Autocannon
Chimera
Heavy Support:
LRBT Hull Heavy Bolter
Demolisher
Hull Heavy Bolter
I was considering downgrading the Plasma Vet squad to a plain meltavet squad in a Chimera, take off the CCS Lascannon and give them a Chimera to try and deny a "Slay the warlord" VP
I was considering downgrading the Plasma Vet squad to a plain meltavet squad in a Chimera, take off the CCS Lascannon and give them a Chimera to try and deny a "Slay the warlord" VP
You definitely want to do that. Although, I'd ditch the Vet Autocannon and Plasmas/lascannon on the CCS. The Plasmavets are good downfield shooting, and your CCS can just hang back in their Chimera. Three Plasmaguns and a living CCS are worth more to you than An autocannon, 2 Plasmas, a Lascannon, and a dead CCS.
I was considering downgrading the Plasma Vet squad to a plain meltavet squad in a Chimera, take off the CCS Lascannon and give them a Chimera to try and deny a "Slay the warlord" VP
You definitely want to do that. Although, I'd ditch the Vet Autocannon and Plasmas/lascannon on the CCS. The Plasmavets are good downfield shooting, and your CCS can just hang back in their Chimera. Three Plasmaguns and a living CCS are worth more to you than An autocannon, 2 Plasmas, a Lascannon, and a dead CCS.
That's true. Plus, it seems to me that the only use Plasma Guns really have in a CCS is to defend against any deep strikers. Otherwise, you wouldn't want the Command Squad in the Plasma gun range.
That's true. Plus, it seems to me that the only use Plasma Guns really have in a CCS is to defend against any deep strikers. Otherwise, you wouldn't want the Command Squad in the Plasma gun range.
Exaaactly.
In such a low-point game, your opponent is going to want to bring as many heavy-hitters as he can with such few points (like you are, bringing two tanks). This means your CCS primarily is going to be aviding heavy hitters; 9/10 times, you shouldn't worry about them killing stuff. Let your tanks and shootyvets handle that. They can just hang out and crush handles of Jack in their metal box.
That's true. Plus, it seems to me that the only use Plasma Guns really have in a CCS is to defend against any deep strikers. Otherwise, you wouldn't want the Command Squad in the Plasma gun range.
Exaaactly.
In such a low-point game, your opponent is going to want to bring as many heavy-hitters as he can with such few points (like you are, bringing two tanks). This means your CCS primarily is going to be aviding heavy hitters; 9/10 times, you shouldn't worry about them killing stuff. Let your tanks and shootyvets handle that. They can just hang out and crush handles of Jack in their metal box.
Maybe I'll throw in a powerfist or something with the 5pts I have left over. Just in case. (I don't have the codex on hand so excuse me if I'm wrong about the cost)
That's true. Plus, it seems to me that the only use Plasma Guns really have in a CCS is to defend against any deep strikers. Otherwise, you wouldn't want the Command Squad in the Plasma gun range.
Exaaactly.
In such a low-point game, your opponent is going to want to bring as many heavy-hitters as he can with such few points (like you are, bringing two tanks). This means your CCS primarily is going to be aviding heavy hitters; 9/10 times, you shouldn't worry about them killing stuff. Let your tanks and shootyvets handle that. They can just hang out and crush handles of Jack in their metal box.
Maybe I'll throw in a powerfist or something with the 5pts I have left over. Just in case. (I don't have the codex on hand so excuse me if I'm wrong about the cost)
CCS-Flamer, CCS-Mortar, or Krak Grenades on the Meltavets would be your best bet.
That's true. Plus, it seems to me that the only use Plasma Guns really have in a CCS is to defend against any deep strikers. Otherwise, you wouldn't want the Command Squad in the Plasma gun range.
Exaaactly.
In such a low-point game, your opponent is going to want to bring as many heavy-hitters as he can with such few points (like you are, bringing two tanks). This means your CCS primarily is going to be aviding heavy hitters; 9/10 times, you shouldn't worry about them killing stuff. Let your tanks and shootyvets handle that. They can just hang out and crush handles of Jack in their metal box.
Maybe I'll throw in a powerfist or something with the 5pts I have left over. Just in case. (I don't have the codex on hand so excuse me if I'm wrong about the cost)
CCS-Flamer, CCS-Mortar, or Krak Grenades on the Meltavets would be your best bet.
Krak Grenades would probably be the most useful. I don't need any more pie plates and the flamer will probably only do something every 3 games.
As far as redundancy is concerned; is one vendetta enough at 1500? Because I can see a vendetta surviving on its own, whereas I can see a lone hell hound booking it early.
Afrodactyl wrote: As far as redundancy is concerned; is one vendetta enough at 1500? Because I can see a vendetta surviving on its own, whereas I can see a lone hell hound booking it early.
Depends on what you're looking for. One vendetta is something that will soak a bunch of anti-transport fire, pop a transport or two, and generally function as a harassment unit. I wouldn't put troops in a vendetta if it was my only flyer.
2+, and you now have some serious firepower, can start putting troops in them thanks to decent saturation, and you gain control of the sky.
One vendetta is something that will soak a bunch of anti-transport fire, pop a transport or two, and generally function as a harassment unit. I wouldn't put troops in a vendetta if it was my only flyer.
I've found 1 vendetta just validates your opponents anti-air. Whether they took minimal or spammed it, they'll be glad they had it for that 1 vendetta. 2+ means they will struggle to take them out with minimal AA and you'll be able to deal with a lot of maximal AA that before it does anything (assuming other fliers and not sabre platforms).
So yeah, 2+ or none in my opinion. Also it looks awesome when 3 fliers come on the table, you can hum "ride of the valkyries" to yourself as they do.
Hey all, trying another list here, kind of a mix of foot/mech. Can I get some opinions?
CCS - 50
2 of these at total 450 -
Infantry Platoon -
PCS 3 groups of 10 Infantry w/AC and flamer
2x Vet squads w/3 melta, in a chimera - 310
ADL with quad gun - 100
2x Manticore (separate, not a squadron) - 320
3x Griffons squadroned - 225
2x Vendettas (separate) - 260
Puts me at 1715.
I'm trying the Griffons due to their rerolls, and 3 of em should help with their AP 4. Plus they're cheap. Along with the Manticores, that should help with hordes. The Vendettas take care of any important targets, while the Chimeras either go after objectives or draw fire while harassing tanks. Infantry units bubble wrap tanks or foot slog it to objectives.
Saturday I'll be playing my first objective game. Does this seem like a viable list? No AV14, but I'm hoping to keep things away with the range. Although, with the new DA codex out, I can see drop pods wrecking my day.
Cruz wrote: Hey all, trying another list here, kind of a mix of foot/mech. Can I get some opinions?
Lord Commissar - 70
2 of these at total 450 -
Infantry Platoon -
PCS 3 groups of 10 Infantry w/AC and flamer
2x Vet squads w/3 melta, in a chimera - 310
ADL with quad gun - 100
2x Manticore (separate, not a squadron) - 320
3x Griffons squadroned - 225
2x Vendettas (separate) - 260
Puts me at 1735.
I'm trying the Griffons due to their rerolls, and 3 of em should help with their AP 4. Plus they're cheap. Along with the Manticores, that should help with hordes. The Vendettas take care of any important targets, while the Chimeras either go after objectives or draw fire while harassing tanks. Infantry units bubble wrap tanks or foot slog it to objectives. PCS behind an ADL, and tanks behind ADL.
Saturday I'll be playing my first objective game. Does this seem like a viable list? No AV14, but I'm hoping to keep things away with the range. Although, with the new DA codex out, I can see drop pods wrecking my day.
Where is the CCS, Medusa, and the rest of your Chimeras?
Cruz wrote: Hey all, trying another list here, kind of a mix of foot/mech. Can I get some opinions?
Lord Commissar - 70
2 of these at total 450 -
Infantry Platoon -
PCS 3 groups of 10 Infantry w/AC and flamer
2x Vet squads w/3 melta, in a chimera - 310
ADL with quad gun - 100
2x Manticore (separate, not a squadron) - 320
3x Griffons squadroned - 225
2x Vendettas (separate) - 260
Puts me at 1735.
I'm trying the Griffons due to their rerolls, and 3 of em should help with their AP 4. Plus they're cheap. Along with the Manticores, that should help with hordes. The Vendettas take care of any important targets, while the Chimeras either go after objectives or draw fire while harassing tanks. Infantry units bubble wrap tanks or foot slog it to objectives. PCS behind an ADL, and tanks behind ADL.
Saturday I'll be playing my first objective game. Does this seem like a viable list? No AV14, but I'm hoping to keep things away with the range. Although, with the new DA codex out, I can see drop pods wrecking my day.
Where is the CCS, Medusa, and the rest of your Chimeras?
Are you referring to my list posted a few pages back? If so, I'm trying the Griffons to see how they are. Really, it's hard to gauge without actually using them, so I'm just trying out different lists. I'm dropping the Commissar to add in a CCS for the orders. I had a mech army in mind when picking the HQ. So, replace the Commissar with a CCS, and I've got 35 pts left.
Nah. Mostly jokingly referring to some inconsistency in your list's focus. Two Chimeravets is kinda odd. Very easy target for your opponent's antitank to get some easy kills.
In addition to the stuff on /tg/, I suggest just dropping those two Chimeras. 110 points back in your lap to use better, and just put those vets in the Vendettas. They'll get to their target (be it a pesky tank, or an upfield objective) safer, and more consistently that way.
Afrodactyl wrote: As far as redundancy is concerned; is one vendetta enough at 1500? Because I can see a vendetta surviving on its own, whereas I can see a lone hell hound booking it early.
Depends on what you're looking for. One vendetta is something that will soak a bunch of anti-transport fire, pop a transport or two, and generally function as a harassment unit. I wouldn't put troops in a vendetta if it was my only flyer.
2+, and you now have some serious firepower, can start putting troops in them thanks to decent saturation, and you gain control of the sky.
I second this.
And as far as the hellhound goes, it depends on what other armor you have on the field. My opponents are generally more afraid of a LR than a HH and shoot the LR first increasing the HH's survivability. Unless you're playing Eldar or Tau who are extremely afraid of them.
Theres 415 points to cover my weaknesses. From the games Ive played so far with this core, my weaknesses appear to be hordes and holding objectives once Ive gotten to them.
Medusa x3? 3x blasts for some anti-horde, even more anti-tank/MEQ, and nasty threats that will draw fire from your Chimeras and hopefully keep them alive longer.
If you really want anti-horde, Manticore x2 and a Griffon. Obvious anti-horde power, still hits vehicles, but not as good at drawing fire away from vulnerable Chimeras.
2x Manticores are awsome. They not only fill the anti-horde roll but can double as an Anti AV14 Hull point remover. Having some Strength 10 is also really usefull. I'd definatly run the Manticores.
I run 51 man blob with commissar and 5x auto cannons. It's very good, I tried axes on sgts but they usually die so they got removed.
I never ran a Lascannon infantry squads as I think bs3 is lacking ofc. But if you couple those with orders against vehicles/mc s it could do well. I prefer auto cannons. They cheaper, and give my list more Dakka.
I run a mech/chimera/foot hybrid it did quite well this weekend I came 4th out if 28th.
Depends, but I like to have MSU infantry squads running around (usually 4-5). The more targets for the enemy to deal with the better. In KP games just blob them up.
I second putting autocannons in the inf. squads. 1 shot at BS3 doesn't fare so well.
Keep some meltavets mounted in a vendetta/chimera handy for anything tough that the autocannons cant handle.
Makes me chuckle that a few months ago the LC vs AC debate was heavily in favor of ACs. Now it's pretty much accepted that LCs are flat out better under every circumstance.
Reminds me of the quote: "When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind. What Do You Do, Sir?" from John Maynard Keynes.
I think it probably depends on what your opponent is, but in a take on all comers list, it still might be better to take many LC's versus some AC's. If you take 6 LC's, you should be able to hit about half the time, and those three shots have a good chance of taking down everything they're facing. While you might hit with more shots with AC's, you won't have the guarantee they'll destroy what they hit.
Imagine a model that can be killed by almost anything in the game by simply looking at it. Now imagine giving that model a super expensive upgrade and relying on it to do your heavy lifting.
Err, I think you guys are missing something here: they're talking about heavy weapon TEAMS, not heavy weapon SQUADS. You know, the upgrade guns you put into your infantry squads to make them something other than useless meatshields.
(And if it was a typo and you meant HWS, then yes, they're terrible. Don't take them.)
Oh. Oh man, guess it's getting to be that hour of the night where I should stop posting.
I swear, that one annoying thread in General really took it out of me.
If you're putting heavy weapons teams in a blob, Lascannons.
If you're putting heavy weapons teams in Chimeravets, well, you shouldn't. If you insist, give them autocannons if they're mobile, and Lascannons if you're running a parking lot.
Creed + Hunter-Killer Chimeras with Veterans inside= One of the best "F*ck you" moves one can conjure with Imperial Guard.
There's also the Vendetta x 9 power move, to harass the enemy to table-flipping point, even destroy a GK Storm Raven Cheese list.
List one has FAR too much ap3 and lower. Those basilisks are unnecessary. You need a way to deal with hordes too.
List one could use a Standard in the CCS, also list one has Vets sitting around without transports. Either the Pyro PCSs go in the vendettas or the Vets. If the PCSs are, you might as well make those vets more PISs.
Griddlelol wrote: List one has FAR too much ap3 and lower. Those basilisks are unnecessary. You need a way to deal with hordes too.
List one could use a Standard in the CCS, also list one has Vets sitting around without transports. Either the Pyro PCSs go in the vendettas or the Vets. If the PCSs are, you might as well make those vets more PISs.
The vets are riding in the vendettas, the fireballs were going to be ran as a small, aggressive deterrant meatshield type thing. Should I drop the vets and add another platoon? My only concern then is a lack of plasma. What should I drop for the standard?
Griddlelol wrote:Makes me chuckle that a few months ago the LC vs AC debate was heavily in favor of ACs. Now it's pretty much accepted that LCs are flat out better under every circumstance.
Reminds me of the quote: "When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind. What Do You Do, Sir?" from John Maynard Keynes.
To be fair, autocannons were ALWAYS crummy.
I never could get over the duplicity that happened over the entirety of 5th ed wherein people on the one hand insisted that "mech guard is the only competitive way to play guard" and "autocannons utterly destroy any vehicle up to and including AV12".
Like... those both can't be true at the same time.
While the argument "try it and see" is rarely worth listening to, this is an example of when it is. Shame I didn't try it earlier.
Although LCs did get better in 6th, as ACs got worse.
Oh and for the Army list posted: That's going to stuff marine armys, but it's going to struggle against anything that's not fielding small, points intensive, elite units. You really need something in there to punch holes in hordes aside from the rather unreliable PCSIMO.
While the argument "try it and see" is rarely worth listening to, this is an example of when it is. Shame I didn't try it earlier.
Although LCs did get better in 6th, as ACs got worse.
Oh and for the Army list posted: That's going to stuff marine armys, but it's going to struggle against anything that's not fielding small, points intensive, elite units. You really need something in there to punch holes in hordes aside from the rather unreliable PCSIMO.
Should I try plasmavets walking behind each platoon for screening?
Should I try plasmavets walking behind each platoon for screening?
Not entirely sure I understand what you mean. A 5+ cover save isn't going to deter your opponent from shooting vets kitted out with plasma guns. Nor will more plasma vets help you deal with hordes.
Your list is incredibly tailored to deal with things like GK, C:SM, Nurgle CSM, DW, RW and BA. It's going to struggle against high model count lists like Orks, foot guard, SW and to some extent Necrons (although these can be very vehicle heavy now-a-days). Blast templates will give you an edge, while not limiting your power in the areas you've removed it from to add those templates.
I may be fairly biased, since I don't come across MEQ as much as everyone else seems to (<40% of the players at my LGS are MEQ), so take my advice with a pinch of salt if you're in one of those places that has MEQ coming out the wazoo.
Here's the deal with autocannons. They glance. A lot. Against the relatively standard AV12 profile, 1/2 of their results will be glances.
In 5th, those glances would mean a shaken or stunned result -- something good enough that would let you ignore the threat for one more turn. Mission accomplished, move onto the next target. In 6th, it just strips a hull point and you have to do it another 2 times to accomplish anything. And if you are lucky enough to get a penetrating result, the damage table shift means you're halfway between the 5th edition glance and a proper penetrating result, anyway.
And of course, there's the meta-shift. Rhinos got nerfed, hard. Razorbacks did a little better, but their best army, BA, isn't in great shape. Dark Eldar are significantly less common, with all that entails in the AV spectrum, and when Orks bring vehicles it's generally wagons, not trukks. Autocannons might have had some dominance in taking down fliers (no AV13 or AV14), but the fliers that are really dominant are AV12 3HP -- not the Dakkajet or Skytalon. And so lascannons are preferred there, too.
Hey folks,
After not playing 40k for a couple years, I had my first game of 6th ed a couple weeks ago and really enjoyed it. I'm still trying to get my head around all the advice on this thread. Here's what I've got painted right now and it's around 2100 points. What would you all suggest for a basic gunline IG at 1250 and 1500 points? The only stipulation is that I want to keep the Master of Ordinance because he's just good (if somewhat unpredictable) fun. The figs are not decaled or marked for certain squads, so feel free to move Heavies, specials, etc around at will.
Hints on strategy and deployment are welcome as well. I appreciate any guidance you all can offer.
* Company Command Squad (152pts)
Master of Ordnance (30pts), Medi Pack (30pts), Missile Launcher (15pts), Regimental Standard (15pts)
* Company Commander (12pts)
Bolt Pistol (2pts), Power Weapon (10pts)
* Lord Commissar (105pts)
Carapace Armour (10pts), Plasma Pistol (10pts), Power Fist (15pts)
Should I try plasmavets walking behind each platoon for screening?
Not entirely sure I understand what you mean. A 5+ cover save isn't going to deter your opponent from shooting vets kitted out with plasma guns. Nor will more plasma vets help you deal with hordes.
Your list is incredibly tailored to deal with things like GK, C:SM, Nurgle CSM, DW, RW and BA. It's going to struggle against high model count lists like Orks, foot guard, SW and to some extent Necrons (although these can be very vehicle heavy now-a-days). Blast templates will give you an edge, while not limiting your power in the areas you've removed it from to add those templates.
I may be fairly biased, since I don't come across MEQ as much as everyone else seems to (<40% of the players at my LGS are MEQ), so take my advice with a pinch of salt if you're in one of those places that has MEQ coming out the wazoo.
Okay, hows this? It doesnt have as many infantry, but has more blasts.
Company Command Squad - Regimental Standard, Autocannon, Astropath - 105
Griddlelol wrote:Oh and for the Army list posted: That's going to stuff marine armys, but it's going to struggle against anything that's not fielding small, points intensive, elite units. You really need something in there to punch holes in hordes aside from the rather unreliable PCSIMO.
How about 8 infantry squads with FRF lasguns? Plus, it's not like that huge pile of melta and lascannons can't hurt low-cost units either.
If this was really such a concern, then I'd just find the shockingly few points required to give those vendettas heavy bolter sponsons.
How about 8 infantry squads with FRF lasguns? Plus, it's not like that huge pile of melta and lascannons can't hurt low-cost units either.
If this was really such a concern, then I'd just find the shockingly few points required to give those vendettas heavy bolter sponsons.
I really don't like to mix the units I'm targeting. Sure, 8x7 FRFSRF lasguns would do the job, but then you're not shooting that lascannon or that meltagun at something. If the threats that the lascannons deal with are gone by that point, then yeah, the rapid firing lasguns will do a fine job (although you've probably already won if that's the case). But when your choice is shooting the big scary thing, or the masses of gribbles, it's a difficult decision to make, and something that could ultimately cost you the game.
Tl;dr: I don't like flipping a coin for my target priority.
I'm confused as to why you're telling him the basilisks aren't necessary, but then telling him he needs anti-horde? Granted, manticores might be better, but surely basilisks can handle that job too.
Also, Griddlelol, that last comment, it isn't necessarily flipping a coin for target priority, it's just having the option available. If you hide LC's in squads, then they have lots of Emperor-approved ablative armor, and can still hit what you need them to, and if a horde gets close, you can fire the LC and all the lasguns at it.
Tyranids. sure, lasguns do alright, but against orks, they maybe score one or two wounds per ten dudes.
Sure, you can pour more squads into firing at the same target, but since PIS can get spread out, I find that I never have enough concentrated anti-horde firepower. Against swarmy stuff like green tide and 'nids. Oh, and relying on lasguns to deal with massive amounts of orks is going to result in your guardsmen being swept away by the green tide.
Blasts can help, but not against a smart opponent. Against good opponent, large blasts may as well be Heavy 3, because I can never seem to get more than three models under the blast template if my opponent has spaced is models well. Futhermore, the game is often decided against horde armies within the first turns. If they get into assault, they usually have the models to perform a multi-assault and start crushing your dudes faster.
To make it even harder, with the new FAQ's, orks can go to ground under their cover bubble thingy and get back up the next turn due to the fearless rule. So now the green tide as a free 4+ cover save.
So yeah, anti-horde is a good thing to look into for a TAC list. A bolter-boat punisher or manticores may actually fill in the gap. as it seems you have more than enough firepower to handle marines and elite stuff.
Also: Valkyrie + Hellfury Missiles + Bolter Sponsons = an amazing air strike on swarms.
Griddlelol wrote:I really don't like to mix the units I'm targeting. Sure, 8x7 FRFSRF lasguns would do the job, but then you're not shooting that lascannon or that meltagun at something.
Yes you are, you're shooting them at orks. They're not wasted shots.
Furthermore, all infantry units don't need to shoot at the same targets. Those who need to shoot at boyz shoot at boyz. Those who need to shoot at heavier things shoot at heavier things. With eight whole infantry squads to play with, you've got enough from both. With a little extra kick, say from the officer squads and from heavy bolter vendettas, if your opponent brings too many of one or the other, you're still good to go due to support units.
Plus, hordes have new problems with wound allocation and the way cover saves work. Add to that how much worse assault got, and it's not like you're going to be on the receiving end of a slugga charge anyways anymore. Plus, with all that long-range weaponry combined with the small arms, you're going to be able to do a good job of concentrating your killing power on a necessarily less concentrated opponent.
How many slugga tides are you going to see? Zero. Even if you do, we're talking about FRFable lasguns that now have a 30" threat range, which means you can concentrate it rather well on an opponent who, being a horde player, isn't going to have good concentration of their own. Once you're done taking casualties from the front, then your ork opponent is going to have to deal with speedbumping. A slugga green tide would be straight-up screwed against this list.
For shoota tide, once again, you're talking about guard weapons that outrange their ork counterparts. You're going to get in the first volley, and, once again talking about casualties coming from the front, you're likely getting in two before the orks have a chance to do any serious damage. If they come in closer, you're going to be able to concentrate fire with your rapid fire weapons on the defense better than he will be able to concentrate his assault weapons on the offense. You'll even be more mobile, being able to jet in a whole infantry platoon in those vendettas and drop them off at weak points of enemy objectives.
This list handles green tide just fine. Not that you're even going to see it all that often anymore.
For shoota tide, once again, you're talking about guard weapons that outrange their ork counterparts. You're going to get in the first volley, and, once again talking about casualties coming from the front, you're likely getting in two before the orks have a chance to do any serious damage. If they come in closer, you're going to be able to concentrate fire with your rapid fire weapons on the defense better than he will be able to concentrate his assault weapons on the offense. You'll even be more mobile, being able to jet in a whole infantry platoon in those vendettas and drop them off at weak points of enemy objectives.
Yeah, but the first volley of lasguns doesn't do enough, and there's not exactly a lot of room to maneuver when you've got a ton of orcs taking up most of the table. It's really two massive gunlines just going at it before the charge, and if he charges, he wins. Plus, a smart ork player will throw that one unit of ork termies or kans or something in there, forcing you to remove firepower from his boyz. It seems like if you focus one group, the other will get you.
TheCaptain wrote: AC's are still better to folks that favor anecdotal evidence, or non-mathematical ideas like "Well, more shots are better since we're BS3"
but once you look at the math, along with the pros vs. cons, Lascannons are just the superior weapon.
Only if you ignore the maths, you mean.
My arguments never relied on them due to BS3 but rather efficiency per point cost. At carrier costs at <70 per AC, AC's are better points wise. BS is just a nonfactor in that.
The fact that both of you ignore these points and put words into peoples mouths is enough to suggest that you didn't understand where those arguments came from in the first place.
kestril wrote:Yeah, but the first volley of lasguns doesn't do enough
I don't understand how this could be so.
Casualties are removed from the front, which means that you're moving the line of closest enemy models a few inches backwards every time you fire. The only way this wouldn't be a problem ever is if your opponent was literally in close order drill, in which case, said infantry platoon falls out of a vendetta and causes hideous casualties with the flamers.
kestril wrote:there's not exactly a lot of room to maneuver when you've got a ton of orcs taking up most of the table.
Vendettas.
Seriously, though, green tide could always be handled by a guard player who actually knew how to use his lasguns. Lasguns got better in this edition, and foot hordes charging across the board got much worse. You should be fine once you learn how to move your infantry on the table to counter them - a skill that's made much, much easier now that you can pre-measure
Blaggard wrote:Only if you ignore the maths, you mean.
All your math ever showed was a slight efficiency boost for the autocannons (well, pointswise, but not timewise), and an effectiveness boost against a tiny range of targets. Meanwhile, the lascannon has a much larger range of targets it can handle effectively.
Efficiency is a poor substitute for effectiveness. Always was, and still is.
kestril wrote: To make it even harder, with the new FAQ's, orks can go to ground under their cover bubble thingy and get back up the next turn due to the fearless rule. So now the green tide as a free 4+ cover save.
Err, what? The Fearless USR explicitly states that you can not go to ground.
kestril wrote: To make it even harder, with the new FAQ's, orks can go to ground under their cover bubble thingy and get back up the next turn due to the fearless rule. So now the green tide as a free 4+ cover save.
Err, what? The Fearless USR explicitly states that you can not go to ground.
I guess I'll have to point that out to him then.
Yeah lasguns got better, but they still suck. The only thing which redeems them is their mass numbers, which isn't always possible to bring to bear on the target all at once. Oh yeah, I'm a big fan of my vendetta or deepstriking flamers, but I only have one vendetta. It makes a dent, sometimes a big dent, but never enough to make a real difference.
Furthermore, all infantry units don't need to shoot at the same targets. Those who need to shoot at boyz shoot at boyz. Those who need to shoot at heavier things shoot at heavier things. With eight whole infantry squads to play with, you've got enough from both.
Maybe it's paranoia talking, but in a game that uses chance to determine whether my tactics are successful, I really like to limit my potential failure. I do see that lasguns will handle most hordes, but it's at a horribly close range. For me they're the oh gak it's in my face I better shoot my lasguns at it way of killing things. Since that 30" threat range in reality won't exist if I can shoot my lascannon at something worth while.
Basically I want to have things weakened before they're in their kill range of my troops. Though yeah it's just in case which I suppose isn't a great reason.
Makes me chuckle that a few months ago the LC vs AC debate was heavily in favor of ACs. Now it's pretty much accepted that LCs are flat out better under every circumstance.
Reminds me of the quote: "When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind. What Do You Do, Sir?" from John Maynard Keynes.
AKA the thread where MrMoustaffa realized he wasn't crazy and actually knew what he was doing for once.
I don't get many of those threads.
It is really funny how the "accepted" view has changed though. In my area, shortly after that thread got going, a lot the local IG players starting saying "Man, autocannons really aren't as awesome as they used to be." It's like everyone had been playing just long enough to come to the same conclusion.
Also
Sinji wrote:Why is everyone going on about thinning hordes with Lasguns. Why not just shower them in Pie Plates like guard does best.
This man speaks the truth.
Guardsmen are for killing tanks.
Tanks are for killing infantry.
That is how IG works best.
And I play foot guard. I tend to have 80+ lasguns in any given list. I STILL prefer to have my tanks do the infantry killing, because my guardsmen are just so much better for killing vehicles/MC's/ Hard infantry (termis, meganobs, etc.)
Well, don't get to excited. Once the "OMG LCs ARE AMAZING!!!!" hype settles down a bit people will realize that LCs and ACs have always been useful, just in different ways, and that there are reasons to take either of them.
Wait, what am I saying, this is a forum, people are just going to go straight to the next OMG AWESOME thing.
Peregrine wrote: Well, don't get to excited. Once the "OMG LCs ARE AMAZING!!!!" hype settles down a bit people will realize that LCs and ACs have always been useful, just in different ways, and that there are reasons to take either of them.
Wait, what am I saying, this is a forum, people are just going to go straight to the next OMG AWESOME thing.
I figure it's just more of a meta-shift, if anything. In 5th, Mech was king, so Autocannons made the most sense. Now in 6th, the vibe is either Tanks'n'Boots, or Flyers. In facing either of the two, Guard is gunna want Lascannons; 60% of the time, all the time.
I'm trying to get a new guy into the hobby, and he wants to try IG because he likes tanks. I figured we'd try a 750 point game and made him a list. How do you think this would be?
CCS - 50
2 Leman Russ - 300
Vet Squad - 3x plasma, Chimera - 170
PCS - 30
3x Infantry Squads, each with an AC - 180
Gives him 20 points left over, and I'll let him decide if he wants to switch out 1 of the tanks or take different weapons in his squads or CCS. Fliers will be introduced in later games. I figure this list would give him a feel for different aspects of the game and his army. He's got 2 big tanks, a good amount of foot guard, a transport with special weapons, and he can also take advantage of the Orders system.
Give the CCS and PCS a AC each to make up those 20 points.
If you think that he's not going to face any AV14 it'll be fine.
Edit: Done some more maths, not sure if I've done it right if only due to the matching % at places. Possibly have, it looks like it'll match my efficiency charts if we were to factor in cost.
Blaggard wrote: Give the CCS and PCS a AC each to make up those 20 points.
If you think that he's not going to face any AV14 it'll be fine.
Edit: Done some more maths, not sure if I've done it right if only due to the matching % at places. Possibly have, it looks like it'll match my efficiency charts if we were to factor in cost.
This is for 5 HW bases against a 3HP thing.
Thanks. It's my dad, and he won't be playing unless I'm around since it's not something he has the free time to fully commit to (modelling, painting, etc). But I'll show him the chart to explain LC vs AC.
The chart was for another argument we were having about "effectiveness vs efficiency".
I ain't going to do one for toughness/save tonight, might be interestan.
Note that the figures aren't exact, there's no way to get >=100%. I can't be buggered to make it correct atm so just use them as a scalar comparison.
EDIT:
Done the proper maths.
I thought I didn't do this right until I increased the weapon bases to like 100 of each, it still doesn't reach 100% for either result.
Now for toughness and various saves :(
Im building a list that features four mech vet units, a plasma ccs and a mechanised flamer-heavy al'rahem platoon. Would you say that a pair of manticores, a quad gun and a vet squad with AC is a good addition for ~500 points?
I think it's probably best to leave the demolition delivery to SWSs and Marbo. Both of which show up, do their thing and usually die. I would probably only put one demo charge in a SWS to keep them cheap.
Just a heads up original poster, when people bag on AC's dont listen to them whole heartedly. (lascannons have their place, but AC shine a bit brighter in my opinion)
for anti vehicle AC's
av10-11 they are better
av12 lascannon by slim margin
av13+ lascannon by large margin
(so what are you expecting to have trouble with??)
against infantry AC's will kill more of (most) ANY type of dudes that dont have 2 wds T4.
what people fail to realize is that for every 1 lascannon shot i get 4 AC shots.
RegulusBlack wrote: Just a heads up original poster, when people bag on AC's dont listen to them whole heartedly. (lascannons have their place, but AC shine a bit brighter in my opinion)
for anti vehicle AC's
av10-11 they are better
av12 lascannon by slim margin
av13+ lascannon by large margin
(so what are you expecting to have trouble with??)
against infantry AC's will kill more of (most) ANY type of dudes that dont have 2 wds T4.
what people fail to realize is that for every 1 lascannon shot i get 4 AC shots.
What you don't realize is that AP2 on a lascannon makes it better, and that for every 1 lascannon shot, you get 2 AC shots and 10 more points.
The whole autocannon thing always devolves to people looking at them in a vacuum against just one or two target types and then mysteriously declaring them to be better weapons over all.
If you're willing to ignore what Ap2 means and are willing to forget what a carrier cost is, and are willing to believe that a kill made on any turn is equal in quality to a kill made on any other turn, and are willing to pretend like the game consists of only two different units, then the autocannon can start to look good, but it only looks great when you can do all of that AND don't understand how math works.
RegulusBlack wrote: but isnt that kind of the point ( and that for every 1 lascannon shot, you get 2 AC shots and 10 more points)
as stated in the Autocannon thread earlier, AC vs. the majority of all ground "dudes" wins out. 4xAC shots kills more than 1xLC shot.
i would probably concede that if i had only 1 Heavy weapon upgrade available and 20 points to spend why not get a LC.
A guardsman costs 5 points. A heavy weapons team will cost you 30 points with a lascannon. 20 points with an autocannon.
An infantry squad costs 50 points. An infantry squad with a lascannon will cost you 70 points, or 60 points with an autocannon.
Lascannons are marginally more expensive if you look at it correctly. Not twice.
Futhrermore,
BS3 Autocannon vs. MEQ.
Hits once. Wounds 5/6. Kills .2777 Marines.
BS3 Lascannon vs. MEQ
Hits .5, wounds 5/12, kills .416 marines.
Autocannons are only worth it against Sv4+ and above, which guard has Manticores, Punishers, Basilisks, Lasguns, Heavy Bolters, Multilasers, and the like to deal with.
Never, ever, ever waste your heavy weapon slots on a weapon that excels at killing Sv4+ guys. There is so much else that could do it less wastefully.
Ailaros, i respect your opinion, you have some of the best battle reports out there, and are one of the reasons i play mech vs. foot
but when comparing the AC's based on cost vs. the Lascannon based on cost AC wins. (comparing 40 points of AC's vs. 40 points of LC's)
AC = 8 shots x.66 (BS 4)
5.28 Hits x .83 (WD 2+)
4.38 Wds x .33 (Armor Save)
1.45 Dead Marines.
LC = 2 shots x .66 (BS4)
1.32 Hits x .83 (WD 2+)
1.1 Wds 1.1 Dead Marines.
In cover it gears much higher to AC’s
LC = (1.1 x .66 [cover save fail] =
.726 Dead Marines. (half of the Autocannon kills)
Alright lets do some numbers again. vs. Terminators
AC = 8 shots x.66 (BS 4)
5.28 Hits x .83 (WD 2+)
4.38 Wds x .17 (Armor Save)
0.744 Dead Terminators
LC = 2 shots x .66 (BS4)
1.32 Hits x .83 (WD 2+)
1.1 Wds x .66 (5++ invul)
0.726 Dead terminators
now if you want to compare a single model HWT of AC's vs. single model HWT of LC's, sure i concede LasCannons are going to be better, undoubtedley better because your paying double what you are paying for the AC's
(200 points of SW librarians is better than 100 points of SW librarians)
Captain grey brought up the point of 2W models, (instagibbing T4 dudes) and i agree that vs. : 2W, T4 models that do NOT have EW/4++/3++/higher Toughness factor, LC's are better.
but in comparison AC's kills average of 4 dudes in 4+ armor.
so in summation if ALL you ever see in your local game is Paladins, and ?Mega Nobz? (these are the only things in saturation that i can think of that fall into that category of 2W/T4) by all means take LC's
but if you face off against: SM/CSM/GK/IG/DE/E/SoB/O/Tau, your much better off For The Points in taking AC's (dunno about Nids cause i have never faced em, and well if your up against demons... well good luck)
RegulusBlack wrote: Ailaros, i respect your opinion, you have some of the best battle reports out there, and are one of the reasons i play mech vs. foot
but when comparing the AC's based on cost vs. the Lascannon based on cost AC wins. (comparing 40 points of AC's vs. 40 points of LC's)
AC = 8 shots x.66 (BS 4)
5.28 Hits x .83 (WD 2+)
4.38 Wds x .33 (Armor Save)
1.45 Dead Marines.
LC = 2 shots x .66 (BS4)
1.32 Hits x .83 (WD 2+)
1.1 Wds 1.1 Dead Marines.
In cover it gears much higher to AC’s
LC = (1.1 x .66 [cover save fail] =
.726 Dead Marines. (half of the Autocannon kills)
Alright lets do some numbers again. vs. Terminators
AC = 8 shots x.66 (BS 4)
5.28 Hits x .83 (WD 2+)
4.38 Wds x .17 (Armor Save)
0.744 Dead Terminators
LC = 2 shots x .66 (BS4)
1.32 Hits x .83 (WD 2+)
1.1 Wds x .66 (5++ invul)
0.726 Dead terminators
now if you want to compare a single model HWT of AC's vs. single model HWT of LC's, sure i concede LasCannons are going to be better, undoubtedley better because your paying double what you are paying for the AC's
You have to account for carrier cost, man. That's what you're both missing, and not getting. Like I said:
A guardsman costs 5 points. A heavy weapons team will cost you 30 points with a lascannon. 20 points with an autocannon.
An infantry squad costs 50 points. An infantry squad with a lascannon will cost you 70 points, or 60 points with an autocannon.
Lascannons are marginally more expensive if you look at it correctly. Not twice.
You can't just compare a lascannon to an autocannon. That's unrealistic.
By that same logic, I would be able to compare infinity Lasguns against zero autocannons, because they cost the same.
You have to account for carrier cost; that's what Ailaros and I are saying.
If you can find me a guard unit that can put an autocannon on the field for 10 points, full price for the unit, then color me impressed.
RegulusBlack wrote: sorry i am not understanding carrier cost (not trying to sound combatative, i honestly dont get it)
an upgrade is an upgrade.
i thought we were comparing points to points, for instance: 4 LC's vs. 8 AC's within an armywide infrastructure.
Well, the unit carrying the weapon costs something. The weapons cost something, but the weapon can't shoot by itself. Even HWS's cost 60 points base (if I remember correctly), that's the carrier cost. In order to put 3 plasmaguns on a Vet Squad, you still have to pay for the 7 other lasguns in the squad even if you don't want them. That's carrier cost.
Thank you for the interpretation washout, however that seems like flawed logic, (and maybe i'm just not smart enough to see the bigger picture, which is possible)
if your going to desaturate the cost of something by blanketing it in with the unit cost, then perhaps i can sorta see why LC's can be better.
however.....
i think thats disengenuous to the upgrades (all upgrades for that matter)
6 AC's in vet squads vs. 3 LC's in vet squads. in math dont you remove like variables??? (been years since college)
against MEQ 1 AC vs. 1 LC hits/wds/sv divided by total carrier cost = .005 kills per point on AC vs. .006 kills per point LC
so sure if you take into account the cost of the unit, LC's are better. but again that seems flawed to me, i either have the unit or i dont, and if i upgrade to 1 item vs. the other the only variance is the item upgraded.
I can't believe we are still on the AC vs LC debate. I feel like this has been going on for months now. We obviously aren't coming to a consensus. Personally I am of the opinion that each has their place in a guard army in the correct ratios. I think however we should put this AC vs LC debate down for a while and move on to new tactics and tricks (what this thread is for). For instance I for one would like to know how Ailaros' experience has been fielding vanquisher's?
TheLionOfTheForest wrote: I can't believe we are still on the AC vs LC debate. I feel like this has been going on for months now. We obviously aren't coming to a consensus. Personally I am of the opinion that each has their place in a guard army in the correct ratios. I think however we should put this AC vs LC debate down for a while and move on to new tactics and tricks (what this thread is for).
There are thousands of IG players.
Every time someone brings up the comparison, its going to be discussed.
I see what's going on here. One camp is comparing guardsmen price + gun vs guardsmen price + gun and the other is just looking at the fact that the Las costs more than the AC.
I still think it would be better to debate which ratio to use rather than which one is better in some kind of vacuum.
AP 2 does really come in handy quite a bit in 6th edition, I must admit.
I still think it would be better to debate which ratio to use rather than which one is better in some kind of vacuum.
I mean, unless the question is "Which upgrade is better for squad X" rather than the common "which weapon is better" then carrier cost should still be accounted for.
And in the former of those two questions, the whole "Las costs double" argument crumples anyways, because you're discussing one heavy weapon slot. So it no longer becomes 2 Autocannons vs. 1 Lascannon, its still just Lascannon Vs. Autocannon and 10 spare points.
I'm just going to go ahead and repeat myself here, because pretty much everything written since my last post falls into one of these traps.
Ailaros wrote:The whole autocannon thing always devolves to people looking at them in a vacuum against just one or two target types and then mysteriously declaring them to be better weapons over all.
If you're willing to ignore what Ap2 means and are willing to forget what a carrier cost is, and are willing to believe that a kill made on any turn is equal in quality to a kill made on any other turn, and are willing to pretend like the game consists of only two different units, then the autocannon can start to look good, but it only looks great when you can do all of that AND don't understand how math works.
Anyways...
Martel732 wrote:I still think it would be better to debate which ratio to use
Sure. The ratio is zero autocannons to infinity lascannons.
The only possible exceptions I can think of are autocannons on hydras (because you don't have access to lascannon anti-flier) if your opponents like to bring a lot of fliers or AV10 skimmers, or if you really can't find points for a better russ, an exterminator is better at nearly everything than a LRBT, but that's more of a statement about how bad LRBTs are, not about how good autocannons are.
RegulusBlack wrote: if thats the case then the argument should be, which is better;
3 Lascannons vs. 3 AC's and 2 plasma guns
or 1 Lascannon, vs. AC and a melta
No, it's not. The squad with the LC can still take a PG or MG, therefore they are simply ignored. You must take into account the carrier cost or it's a pointless comparison.
however, when dealing with a finite amount of points i think it is a legitimate comparison, if i have upgrades abound, sure lascannon "should" kill more things, however you are still "paying" for that premium.
when comparing a cost vs. cost, i think the multiple upgrade is a viable alternative to a single upgrade.
Automatically Appended Next Post: please help me understand, because like most on these boards i would like to field the best possible army. and if that means switching to LC's i'm all for it.
i have 4 Troops (vet squads)
i can either put 4 AC's in (1 per unit) or 1 LC's in 2 units.
i have already paid for the unit, the only option is (if/what) i upgrade it to regarding HWT.
those 4 AC's will kill more dismounted troops than 2 LC's. (agree/disagree??)
Now dealing with effectiveness...... well that depends entirely on the remaining composition of your army.
RegulusBlack wrote:lascannon "should" kill more things, however you are still "paying" for that premium.
You have to pay more for better stuff. So?
By this logic, guard players should use nothing but mortars and flamers as they're the cheapest options. It's not about how cheap something is, it's about how much it kills, and how quickly.
RegulusBlack wrote:when comparing a cost vs. cost, i think the multiple upgrade is a viable alternative to a single upgrade.
Two words - carrier cost.
RegulusBlack wrote:i can either put 4 AC's in (1 per unit) or 1 LC's in 2 units.
Trim out 20 points of fat from the rest of your list, so that you can give them all lascannons.
Show me a list where literally nothing else could get cut out, and I'd see, but my guess is that you've got wiggle room that you don't currently realise you have.
RegulusBlack wrote:Now dealing with effectiveness...... well that depends entirely on the remaining composition of your army.
What?
Guns have a certain amount of effectiveness regardless of what other guns or units you have in the rest of your army. There is nothing else you could take in your guard army that would make autocannons more effective (that wouldn't also make lascannons moreso as well).
Martel732 wrote:So by extension of this thread, should we apply the same logic to rifleman dreadnoughts for the vanilla marines?
So, riflemen are a little bit different, mostly because space marines have much more to fear against fliers than do guardsmen, and they have precious little source of skyfire. Basically, they don't have hydras, but they need them more.
That said, I'd still probably pass on them most of the time. Unless you're grey knights, in which case we're talking about psyflemen, which are a fair bit better than regular autocannons.
Well there's one problem. Heavy weapons on vet squads is entirely different to heavy weapons on stationary blobs or PISs.
i can either put 4 AC's in (1 per unit) or 1 LC's in 2 units.
Where do you get that idea from? Are you so strapped for points you can't afford 50pts? I find that hard to believe.
those 4 AC's will kill more dismounted troops than 2 LC's. (agree/disagree??)
Depends on the troops you shoot at. Also...barely. More to the point, why are you shooting them at troops? The LCs can take out tanks and transports on turn one, the ACs will have a hard time with that.
Now dealing with effectiveness...... well that depends entirely on the remaining composition of your army.
I think you're confused between effectiveness and efficiency. The efficiency of the LC over the AC is not as cut and dry as the effectiveness.
5 vet squads all with plasma guns (15 plasma)
2 CCS w melta's (8 meltas)
3 vendetta's (9 twin linked lascannons)
2 Basilisks
Coteaz with henchmen (plasmacannon servitors x3, 2x DCA, 7 WA w/ stormbolters)
ADL w/ Lascannon
4x Chimera's (ML/HF)
i have 40 points remaining, i have tried to find an extra 40 points.....seriously tried, however i can water down plasma for LC (seems bad), and need WA's for wounds, DCA's have saved my centralized Coteaz unit from getting curbstomped by melee)
Coteaz is the guy who mans the gun, with his 3 plasma cannons he's a twin linked threat that my opponet has to deal with, my meta is foot sloggers upon foot sloggers, so i have not come across a point where i was like, man i need more melta, instead it's crap i wish that was 30" ranged plasma. the CCS can bring it down to themselves for any kind of "i need this vehicle gone" treatment.
the DCA's are for when the enemy eventually closes to deal with Coteaz (most time thinking he's my Warlord)
it's worked so far against some of the best i've played, i used to run SW, but without Blob they become kinda meh.
i dont necc need HWT on my mech guard but i have 40 points, i posted this in another thread but was thinking, power axes or even plasma pistols instead but, more Dakka never hurts.
What has toughness 7 and a 6+ save? What has toughness 9 and a 2+ save?
I think this data would me more useful if it were restricted to things that actually existed in the game.
Also, once again, I've got to refer to my previous statement. In this case, you don't seem to understand what Ap2 means. Ap2 means that an autocannon is going up against a 2+ save on a dreadknight, while a lascannon is going up against a 5++ invul save. Likewise, a tervigon or mephiston is going to get an armor save against the autocannon, and is going to get NOTHING against a lascannon. Here, you're assuming that the target will use the same save against both guns.
That's a pretty big misunderstanding of how Ap works.
To expand that point: Lets say you hit something with AP2 and it's in a ruin, it's still got a 3+ save, maybe it's got a iron halo if not in cover, it's still got it's invuln.
There's more to saves than armour, you know that.
1. is a Lascannon a better upgrade than an AC - undoubtedly
2. is a Lascannon a better upgrade than an AC & a melta unknown (probably) but based on targets
3. if my army wide has the options for X number of AC's vs. 1/2X number of LC's i think AC's are better. (but again based on targets)
anyway, i think this is like democrat vs. republican siding here, you arent going to sway either side with facts or figures
Recently I've been rolling melta hedge with lascannons, but against my meta LC's aren't doing as much as AC's would (as per against troops rather than vehicles, the only vehicles I see are the odd forgefiend which marbo/stormtroopers take care off).
Just noticed the graph had something wrong with it. It was saying "2+ saves are easier to get past than 6+'s".
Infantry Squad: If you play blob guard, this is going to be your bread and butter, if you play a balance of blob and mech, you are still going to take these dudes, because they make it happen. They are paper thin, only hit half the time, and they run away if it can't be helped. But its for damn sure that they can be made a monster
They can take a heavy weapon and a special weapon. This can be combined to make many different options. A basic set up would be a Grenade Launcher or a Flamethrower, to be able to provide additional firepower to the backbone of lasgun spam. On top of that, If the squad is going to be a gun line, add in an Autocannon for front-line squad, or LasCannon/Rocket Launcher for the guys cowering in the back.
Lascannons are nice here. Autocannons are good for giving Monstrous Creatures and MEQs a hard time (your opponent can only make so many armor saves when your guns wound on 2s for the latter and the former isn't known for fantastic armor) and can put up a good fight against you average transport (especially if you can get a side or rear hit in) and if you kit out a whole HWS with them, they put out enough shots to not make a basic Guardsman's BS3 too terrible.
A basic set up would be a Grenade Launcher or a Flamethrower.
Rocket Launcher.
Welcome to Dakka, you must be new here.
Autocannons are good for giving Monstrous Creatures and MEQs a hard time
Yeah that's not happening. The AC hits once on average against MEQ. If you're relying on statistics swinging drastically in your favor then I guess the AC is the weapon to shoot at MCs with.
You might want to do a search, your points have been covered ad nauseam.
Would a mechvet list be the more competitive choice over a foot list? I tried one out at 1000 points last night (with a chaos team mate, against blood angels and necrons) and got hosed.
Hey amrogers3. Tons of advice in this thread. I'm not going to get into what I agree/disagree with, but at any rate, it's great to read these opinions, just to identify what people DO agree on. Nobody will contest the concept of redundancy, for instance. There are those fundamental principles of playing the guard.
As a new 40k player with plenty of loses under my belt, and some really interesting victories, I'll offer up my advice.
I got into this game expecting that the Guard were versatile and fun, and I was sorely disappointed to find that if I didn't build "ye olde standard" list, I was going to lose every game. I quickly got the hang of which units completely sucked, but I wanted to try everything. The "win at all cost" group I play with pretty much beat my face to the ground every game.
So here are the units that I consider fun AND powerful to play. They might actually allow you to do something different than just sit and shoot!
Storm Troopers - They re roll deepstrike scatter and take 2 special weapons. Expensive, but your purchasing a tactical advantage. I'd rather go with something clever vs something powerful. Powerful weapons can miss and they can get killed, but cleverness can actually cause your enemy to re-think their entire plan. At best, these kind of units can shut down and negate the presence of the enemy's best weapons (like an ork wagon, transports, tanks, etc).
Vanilla Leman - The Leman is a great tank, with lots of options. There is endless debate as to which are the best upgrades. What you get from a naked vanilla Leman is a long range marine killer, plain and simple. Since the guys I play with are always finding ways to pop any tank on the table at will, it's just not worth bringing 200+ points in upgrades. If they want a tank dead, consider it done, either by Storm Raven or multi-melta bikes or deepstrike - they'll make it happen, so better to have cheap effective tanks, imo.
Vendettas - I hated paying for these. Hated it. 6th edition dropped and all these cheesy fliers were the rage. Suddenly I had to by a quad gun and all this dumb stuff that I spent a long time hating. I finally got my 2 Vendettas on the board and played them properly. What could I have been thinking? These things are incredible. While every single other guard unit needs to be babied, treading so lightly around the table because a pebble might cause them to explode, the Vendettas are fearless and uncompromising. They get the job done.
Chimeras - Whether you play mechanized or not, you'll find a use for them. They get you where you want to be. Don't buy into the hype though, there are plenty of ways to beat AV12. Chimeras are a good staple of the guard, nothing more.
People say "bring this, bring that ...", I'm happy to report that the Guard DOES have some flexibility, and is capable of really getting outside the box, but I think that's a double edged sword. You need to be extra clever, if you're going to step outside the cheese factory. I know a guy who does the typical guard thing - a massive gun battery. He wins far more often than me, but regardless of whether he's won or lost, it's always the same "I should have brought more (insert weapon-type here)". His strategy is simple - shoot. I know he spends a lot of time figuring out the math behind his build, he relies exclusively on dice rolls. That alternative being - use range and table position to gain every possible advantage, thereby increasing your initial odds (which, if the lists were both optimal, would be 50% favored to win when you stepped in the room). Table position is something you CAN control, there is very little uncertainty, just move there. No matter how powerful the weapon is, it has the potential to fail, so if you're just going to show up and shoot, you're really just rolling dice. It's simply not tactical in any way.
But who am I to talk about winning? I never win, lol.
That's my take on the Imperial Guard. Good luck Guardsman!
Started 40k with IG at the beginning of 5th.
Here are a couple things I like to do;
Tactic 1.) DS Stormtroopers and grav chute CCS from a Vendetta(Astropath if you have the points):
Come in on turn 2, drop the stormtroopers and CCS within 12" of each other behind 2 vehicles that need to die
(melta OR plasma works in rear arc), point the vendetta at a 3rd vehicle, then Bring it Down! Not as good in 6th in
case that CCS has your warlord, but hopefully now your opponent is down 3 clutch vehicles!
Grav chute works more often than I thought, if you place them in a decent position, and dangerous tests aren't nearly as bad as you think.
Tactic 2.) Splitting LR Squadrons: This can get expensive, so I keep 'em small, but do whatever.
My current HS:
1X2 LRBT - hull HB 1 LR Demolisher - hull HB 1 Manticore - hull HB Drive the LRBTs into DT(on an obj if you can manage it) until one is immobilized(hopefully this is turn 1), and enjoy the look on
your opponent's face when you tell him you now have 4 HS choices!
BLAST TEMPLATE BLAST TEMPLATE BLAST TEMPLATE D3 BLAST TEMPLATE(holy crap that would make an awesome Tshirt like the Bacon Strips one).
ALL mobile, ALL the time, remember you can move and shoot your Manticore now!
Keep it cheap, use those points you saved to buy more plasma guns or a(nother) vendetta.
I'm using this configuration because of model limitations, so there's probably a better Russ mix out there, chime in with your thoughts!
Tactic 3: No more Melta, more Plasma: What are some of the strongest things about IG? Plasma Spam, TLLC's, and S10 Large Blast templates(I bring all 3). Between vendettas/demolishers/manticores/DS plasma stormies/(Grav chute) plasma vets, I find I no longer need melta guns, as I can get in pretty much any rear arc with Stormies/Grav Chute Vets/Vendettas(I also don't face a lot of AV14), if there's anything left after the demolisher/manticore gets done shooting.
Try it out, depending on how often you face AV14.
I recently played against a Deathwing with IG allies player who brought 15 Terminators, 10 Deathwing Knights, a 50manblob with 5 AC's who had a 4++ from Azrael, Relentless/5+FNP from Libby, a Vendetta, and a Manticore(what a).
I brought Plasma Spam, 2 Vendettas, and the HS from Tactic 2.
At the end he only had 3 Deathwing Knights, 4 guardsmen, and Azrael left(which was enough to win the game....I had him on turn 5 AND 6, lost 3rd obj on turn 6, 2nd objective on turn 7, I had 1 obj and Linebreaker, he had 1 obj, Linebreaker, Slay the warlord, and First Blood)
Do you not find with plasma spam that you kill your own units regularly?
Plasma does not work in an army where 5+ save is the norm. You end up killing yourself before achieving anything. 20pts per model with a plasma gun is an expensive waste of points. I don't care about the supposed buffs to plasma, because they only apply to armies that don't kill themselves with gets hot!
4chan wrote: Do you not find with plasma spam that you kill your own units regularly?
Plasma does not work in an army where 5+ save is the norm. You end up killing yourself before achieving anything. 20pts per model with a plasma gun is an expensive waste of points. I don't care about the supposed buffs to plasma, because they only apply to armies that don't kill themselves with gets hot!
Well that's true if you're only taking one plasma in your whole list and relying on it to do everything.
Vet squads can take 3 per squad. If one dies, so what? I have 8 more plasma-guns. Guard die. Get used to it.
Those 9, 20-22pt plasma gunners are also highly likely to make their points back. 1 terminator and the points are more than covered. 2 MEQ and the points are going easy. 1 wound off a TMC? Awesome! What other infantry weapon gives you the ability to kill almost anything at 24" and then double tap at 12"? None. They can also threaten vehicles handily with high strength and low ap.
This is something I see with a lot of players. 1/6 gets hot! seems to be something that happens all the time for them. However 1/3 save is something that they consider to never happen, ever. Strange how the save is twice as likely to happen as the over heat yet you consider it so useless...
1. is a Lascannon a better upgrade than an AC - undoubtedly
2. is a Lascannon a better upgrade than an AC & a melta unknown (probably) but based on targets
3. if my army wide has the options for X number of AC's vs. 1/2X number of LC's i think AC's are better. (but again based on targets)
anyway, i think this is like democrat vs. republican siding here, you arent going to sway either side with facts or figures
If people are thinking, rather than screaming themselves hoarse about their anecdotal evidence, they will be swayed. I know I was. I love my autocannon teams, but they're on the bench in favor of lascannons in every case. Even with 2 Vendettas and a a pair of Medusas, the lascannons are a better choice than the autocannons.
Then again, I've also changed minds and had my mind changed in political debates.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for plasmagunners dying from overheats, who cares? If you got to Rapid Fire them and didn't wipe out their target, the entire squad is going to die in the following turn to return fire or being assaulted anyway. They are Guardsmen. They die. It's what they're there for.
4chan wrote: Do you not find with plasma spam that you kill your own units regularly?
Plasma does not work in an army where 5+ save is the norm. You end up killing yourself before achieving anything. 20pts per model with a plasma gun is an expensive waste of points. I don't care about the supposed buffs to plasma, because they only apply to armies that don't kill themselves with gets hot!
Well that's true if you're only taking one plasma in your whole list and relying on it to do everything.
Vet squads can take 3 per squad. If one dies, so what? I have 8 more plasma-guns. Guard die. Get used to it.
Those 9, 20-22pt plasma gunners are also highly likely to make their points back. 1 terminator and the points are more than covered. 2 MEQ and the points are going easy. 1 wound off a TMC? Awesome! What other infantry weapon gives you the ability to kill almost anything at 24" and then double tap at 12"? None. They can also threaten vehicles handily with high strength and low ap.
This is something I see with a lot of players. 1/6 gets hot! seems to be something that happens all the time for them. However 1/3 save is something that they consider to never happen, ever. Strange how the save is twice as likely to happen as the over heat yet you consider it so useless...
I consider it useless after I rolled 4 1's when my CCS squad rapid fired their x4 plasma guns....They all failed their saves and all died.
That was 95 points absolutely wasted. Yes, it was very unlucky, but it happens sometimes, and when it does it can completely feth up the game plan....I haven't had much more luck with veterans. Rapid firing you are gonna get 1 on average per turn getting hot. But we all know the mathhammer and averages are just that - in reality you'll have games where you roll those 2 or 3 or 4 1's and wipe out your whole squad. That's too much of a liability.
As for plasmagunners dying from overheats, who cares? If you got to Rapid Fire them and didn't wipe out their target, the entire squad is going to die in the following turn to return fire or being assaulted anyway. They are Guardsmen. They die. It's what they're there for.
Here we have the typical misunderstanding. Yes, guardsmen are there to die, but when you are upgrading them with expensive plasma guns they suddenly become more expensive than marines (20pts or 22pts for vets) and so you just can't have this same mentality.....People who spend loads of points on upgrades with guard usually suck at playing with them, with very few exceptions, because guard are not designed for this. Keep it cheap and utilise the 'we roll more dice than you' philosophy.
As I said, the plasma buffs mean jack due to get shot being such a liability. And that is a fact. I haven't seen anyone who spams plasma with guard be successful, even in friendly games, which is why you never see much plasma anymore in tournaments: People seemed to think it was a great idea because there was all this hype about plasma (I blame that Ailros guy or whatever his name is for spreading this hype) until they started trying it and frying themselves....It's too unpredictable.
I consider it useless after I rolled 4 1's when my CCS squad rapid fired their x4 plasma guns....They all failed their saves and all died.
That was 95 points absolutely wasted. Yes, it was very unlucky, but it happens sometimes, and when it does it can completely feth up the game plan....I haven't had much more luck with veterans. Rapid firing you are gonna get 1 on average per turn getting hot. But we all know the mathhammer and averages are just that - in reality you'll have games where you roll those 2 or 3 or 4 1's and wipe out your whole squad. That's too much of a liability.
So you choose to discount Plasma because in your eyes, anecdotal evidence supersedes actual mathematical probability?
If you think spamming plasma is for noobs or people who don't know what they are doing you are completly nuts. I run 19-22 Plasma guns in chimera and let me just say that they work. The real trick is what you support them with. Strength 10 Pie Plates and Vendettas are the best options to do this as they can take care of AV14 & Hordes.
Sure a lot of guys kill themselves but seriously who cares, that is the pay off for being able to put out so much damage if they didn't have the gets hot rule they would be so overpowered its not funny.
It has been stated that plasma is really good. In fact it deals with alot of threats for regular IG armies quite nicely like those deep striking terminators or flying demon princes
.
What I don't like though is using veterans only. I find it better to have a cheap platoon base and veterans like plasma vets in addition to that.
I have been pondering an Ig ally plugin for some deathwing but have run into the problem of which heavy weapons to take.
I currently have 235 points to play with, i can free up 5 more by dropping the auspex but thats about it.
The plan is to take a ccs and a platoon, but i cant afford to drop a lascannon into each squad. So what would be the best way to spend the 55/60 points on heavies?
The da heavy weapons consist of, 2x assault cannons 1x heavy flamer and a pair of vindicators. (these are model restricted.)
I consider it useless after I rolled 4 1's when my CCS squad rapid fired their x4 plasma guns....They all failed their saves and all died.
That was 95 points absolutely wasted. Yes, it was very unlucky, but it happens sometimes, and when it does it can completely feth up the game plan....I haven't had much more luck with veterans. Rapid firing you are gonna get 1 on average per turn getting hot. But we all know the mathhammer and averages are just that - in reality you'll have games where you roll those 2 or 3 or 4 1's and wipe out your whole squad. That's too much of a liability.
So you choose to discount Plasma because in your eyes, anecdotal evidence supersedes actual mathematical probability?
Mathhammering everything is nice in T|HEORY. But in REALITY things rarely pan out to the law of averages. And I am saying plasma is too unpredictable and a huge liability. Because it is.
Seriously, just because peopel on this forum say its great and mathhammer it to make it seem great, it really isn't.
And yes, if you are using plasma spam you are a noob who cannot think for himself. End of discussion. I will table almost any plasma list with a basic TAC list. Not being arrogant, just stating fact.
Now back to the allied detachment. The best i can see with 235pts is a bare Company Command Squad for the HQ. A platoon with a bare Platoon Command Squad, with two Infantry Squads armed with a Lascannon and I guess a Flamer since we're already almost out of points. Comes out to 230pts.
Except that for every story you have of your CCS blowing themselves up, I can bring up one of a Special Weapon Squad jumping out of a zooming Vendetta, landing on The Relic with no scatter to claim it, rapid firing 3 plasma guns into a swooping Hive Tyrant, and killing it outright.
Anecdotal evidence is meaningless because we as humans tend to cling to the extremes.
What do you recommend instead of giving out plasmaguns?
Meltaguns are nice for the slightly higher strength to deny FNP to MEQs and the improved AP for popping vehicles, but the lack of range hurts an army that is so bad at short range. Flamers are useful in absolutely rediculous numbers but rarely worth bothering with just a handful of. Sniper rifles are cool looking, but ultimately pretty bad. Grenade launchers are everything that sucks about missile launchers, except that they deny you the chance to take a meltagun or plasmagun rather than a mortar or lascannon.
Hi i am new to the Guard. Played other armies before but there are few IG players in my area so don't really have much experience with them.
I came up with a rough list. Intending to play a 1750 Mechanized IG (I hope it's fairly competitive)
HQ CCS - 4plasma, Chimera
Troops
Vet Squad - 3 plasmas, Chimera
Vet Squad - 3 plasmas, Chimera
Vet Squad - 3 meltas, Chimera
Vet Squad - 3 meltas, Chimera
Fast Attack
Vendetta Gunship
Vendetta Gunship
Heavy
Leman Russ Battle Tank - Heavy Bolter
Leman Russ Battle Tank - Heavy Bolter
I'm left with about 375 points. wondering if i should add two more leman russ (basic or demolishers) and a vet squad (to drop and capture objectives lategame) or run an excutioner+1 more plasma vet squad in chim.
My meta heavy on SM.
Really appreciate any sort of advice.
For better or for worse, assuming equal movement and deployment strategies, the game comes down to mathhammer. That's why the BA suck vs the Space Wolves and Chaos Demons. It's not anything BA players *do* it's the mathematical reality created by the codicies.
Deshkar wrote: Hi i am new to the Guard. Played other armies before but there are few IG players in my area so don't really have much experience with them.
I came up with a rough list. Intending to play a 1750 Mechanized IG (I hope it's fairly competitive)
HQ CCS - 4plasma, Chimera
Troops Vet Squad - 3 plasmas, Chimera Vet Squad - 3 plasmas, Chimera Vet Squad - 3 meltas, Chimera Vet Squad - 3 meltas, Chimera
Fast Attack Vendetta Gunship Vendetta Gunship
Heavy Leman Russ Battle Tank - Heavy Bolter Leman Russ Battle Tank - Heavy Bolter
I'm left with about 375 points. wondering if i should add two more leman russ (basic or demolishers) and a vet squad (to drop and capture objectives lategame) or run an excutioner+1 more plasma vet squad in chim. My meta heavy on SM. Really appreciate any sort of advice.
First off I'd ditch the LRBTs. They're not that fantastic. If you want a blast template, the artillery options are more cost effective, especially in a mech list.
I'd do the folloiwng:
Replace the LRBTs with a squad of 2 Basilisks. Add in a manticore add in a medusa.
Your HS is filled out nicely then, and it gives you some flexibility. If you like the AV:14, then probably trade out the 2 basilisks for a demolisher and something else to add flavor like another plasma vet or melta vets to ride in the vendetta. It's excellent for late game scoring/clearing objectives. A lot of people are recommending the exterminator at the moment, and I've heard good tihngs in the past, but I've never gotten much out of them. They're more reliable than the LRBT at killing most things, and they're extremely flexible with sponsons.
Yeah exactly why plasma spam doesn't work lol kinda proved my point with that list above.
Zero long-range At except vendettas that are in reserve anyway.
You are also gifting your opponent first blood with all those Chimeras.
Easy list to beat: Just pop the Chimeras and pie plate/flamer/assault the survivors, then anything else that survives will kill itself through gets hot!. All your objective holders are gone, you lose. Easy.
And for those saying "plasma is gud cuz it deals with marinez" just shows how weak your opponents are, since most noobs start with marines. Play more experienced players with different armies other than spez marinezzz and you will see how ineffective your plasma spam is. Because when you get down to it, when you are required to actually think of a balanced list rather than "Me spam plasma" list, you fail spectacularly.
Spamming anything is just complete cheese anyway and I personally stay away from these neckbeards (and no one wants to play them ever because they have no friends...).
You mean the list that asked for help regarding such weaknesses, which I then easily addressed by using the heavy support section? Yeah. Absolutely terrible.
"Space marines are easy to beat, just shoot them with ap3 or lower"
"Tyranids are easy to beat, just kill the synapse creatures"
"GK are easy to beat, just ID the paladins"
"Orks are easy to beat, just use template weapons"
"Space wolves are easy to beat, just kill the LFs"
Oh you mean that if you pop the AV:12 that's used to protect them, then use a flamer it instantly counters the list? You're pretty confident at getting that close, and pretty confident at finding a tank without a cover save.
Sorry, your posts read like someone who's never played a single game.
Chimeras are fething boss for their pts. It's non-trivial to crack AV 12 over and over and over. Just who is proposing plasma *spam*? IG can bring a lot of plasma and flamers and meltas to an all comers list because they get lots of models.
And for being a *noob* army, the marines are getting harder and harder to win with every edition since 3rd, imo.
Yeah, plasma hoses marines who aren't in metal bawkses or cover, but it also messes up MCs and light vehicles. And teqs. Plasma in the right situation is absolutely great, which is why I use it on my bikers so they can get plasma to where its needed.
Mathhammering everything is nice in T|HEORY. But in REALITY things rarely pan out to the law of averages. And I am saying plasma is too unpredictable and a huge liability. Because it is.
Seriously, just because peopel on this forum say its great and mathhammer it to make it seem great, it really isn't.
And yes, if you are using plasma spam you are a noob who cannot think for himself. End of discussion. I will table almost any plasma list with a basic TAC list. Not being arrogant, just stating fact.
God, all of this is hilarious. Where to start...
Well. Mathhammering is the only fact we can go by when list building. If you build a list based on unpredictable outcomes, just take 100% Snipers. They'll always precision shot and always rend, in a vacuum of unpredictability.
Mathhammer is fact. Whether your gameplay correlates with Mathhammer or not, that is chance. That is not the fault of mathhammer. Mathhammer is specifically good with IG, because with so many things to mathhammer about (100 lasguns, 18 plasmaguns, etc etc) our numbers tend to sway far closer to the average, thanks to all our rolls being done in volume.
If you are using plasma spam, you've successfully adjusted to the 6th edition meta. Plasma IS TAC. If you table a plasma-heavy list, your list is either also plasma-heavy, your opponent is bad, or you tailored your list.
4Chan clearly isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Although he seems to be the biggest.
Plasma guns are worth there weight in gold some basic Mathhammer tells me that:
22x Plasma guns rapid firing at BS4 = 29.33 hits
VS MEQ = 24.44 Wounds
Now if these wounds are caused in the open those marines are dead and gone if in cover most will still die. If there behind an Agies hit them with Barrage Weapons and they will evaporate into thin air.
Some guys will die due to gets hot but the survivors are still scoring or a warlord so the points are not waisted.
Hey sry, just a newbie lurker lol, but I have a question about the Chimey.
If you run with Chimera's, do you HAVE to have over-saturation of AV12, like 5+ chimey's? Or can you make a hybrid list and be okay with just 3 chimey's and sprinkle some AV14 + flyers?
Just want to know if Chimey's are an all or nothing unit in 6th, still haven't played a game yet .
CaptainGrey wrote:
If you are using plasma spam, you've successfully adjusted to the 6th edition meta. Plasma IS TAC. If you table a plasma-heavy list, your list is either also plasma-heavy, your opponent is bad, or you tailored your list.
-CaptainGrey
Errr...wat?
If that were true, I'd really wonder why Tyranids have been doing well in the competitive scene lately...to say nothing of Daemons.
CaptainGrey wrote:
If you are using plasma spam, you've successfully adjusted to the 6th edition meta. Plasma IS TAC. If you table a plasma-heavy list, your list is either also plasma-heavy, your opponent is bad, or you tailored your list.
-CaptainGrey
Errr...wat?
If that were true, I'd really wonder why Tyranids have been doing well in the competitive scene lately...to say nothing of Daemons.
T- Veteran Squad, 3x Plasma Guns, Chimera, Multi Laser, Heavy Flamer
170pts
T- Veteran Squad, 3x Plasma Guns, Chimera, Multi Laser, Heavy Flamer
170pts
T- Veteran Squad, 3x Plasma Guns, Chimera, Multi Laser, Heavy Flamer
170pts
T- Veteran Squad, 3x Plasma Guns, Chimera, Multi Laser, Heavy Flamer
170pts
T- Veteran Squad, 3x Plasma Guns, Chimera, Multi Laser, Heavy Flamer
170pts
FA- Vendetta, Heavy Bolter Sponsons
140pts
FA- Vendetta, Heavy Bolter Sponsons
140pts
HS- Medusa, Hull Heavy Bolter
135pts
HS- Manticore, Heavy Bolter
160pts
HS- Manticore, Heavy Bolter
160pts
1750pts
I really like how this list runs and I'm actually fielding it in a comp next month.
Basicly the Manticores, Medusa and Vendettas take care of the heavy armour and troops and the vets deal with the rest. It does sink a lot of points into plasma but it works fantastic for me.
I really wish the Vendetta and Manticore didn't overshadow everything...
And that Vets could take Bolters as special weapons...
But Plasma is pretty good in Veteran Squads, you just need the other components in your force to eliminate the threats they can't handle, which is pretty obvious with the current Codex...
KplKeegan wrote: I really wish the Vendetta and Manticore didn't overshadow everything...
And that Vets could take Bolters as special weapons...
But Plasma is pretty good in Veteran Squads, you just need the other components in your force to eliminate the threats they can't handle, which is pretty obvious with the current Codex...
Vendettas don't overshadow everything. The Vulture is another shining choice for Fast-Attack
Manticore competes with LRExecutioners, Medusae (The Arty Carriage as well as the tank) and Hydras
I am surprised the Collossus doesn't get more mention. I know it's only str 6 but it is ap3 and ignores cover. People are going on and on... And on again about the hell drake and how it's a marine killer. I would love to get two collosus, two basilisks and a manticore on the board all at the same time.... I just have to scratch build the Collossus' gun section and then slide it into a chimera artillery hull.
Another question for you all. I have 1 vendetta built and in the paint process, one being assembled and another in the box still. There are a couple TFG at my FLGS (erm cough necrons, cough flamers of tzeentch spammer). And part of me would love to blow them off the table using 3 vendettas, by then I sink to their level. Should I make one a Valkyrie to keep some fluff, or is it a complete waste of an uber $70 model?
Another question for you all. I have 1 vendetta built and in the paint process, one being assembled and another in the box still. There are a couple TFG at my FLGS (erm cough necrons, cough flamers of tzeentch spammer). And part of me would love to blow them off the table using 3 vendettas, by then I sink to their level. Should I make one a Valkyrie to keep some fluff, or is it a complete waste of an uber $70 model?
I have two Valkyries. Love the model, it looks sick with the MRP's.
But I only ever field them as transports for my Elysians.
For C:IG, hate to say it, but Vendettas are the choice to go with.
Well, it looks like 4chan has gone back under his bridge to do... horrible things to/with him/itself.
But I'll post this anyways, I went ahead and wrote it, might as well.
4chan wrote:
Mathhammering everything is nice in T|HEORY. But in REALITY things rarely pan out to the law of averages. And I am saying plasma is too unpredictable and a huge liability. Because it is.
Seriously, just because peopel on this forum say its great and mathhammer it to make it seem great, it really isn't.
The law of averages is, definitionaly, exactly that which things pan out to.
Look, it's math, your opinion or feewings or dice karma don't enter into it.
And, 4chan, as your own kind would put it: "1/10, dawg. I ain't even mad."
Deathstrikes are terrible. Hilarious, but terrible. One of their big advantages went away with 6th, and the Countdown is almost never going to come into play thanks to Hull Points. That said, if you do get to fire one, it will make you giddy. I know it did me.
Whelp, If you're going deathstrike the goal is to bring six of them at 2k points and hope one or two get to fire early in the game and cause irreparable damage to your opponent. If they don't fire, you pretty much lose. If they miss, you pretty much lose. But IF they hit, it WILL be glorious.
This has probably been discussed before, but which is generally better, an astropath in my CCS, or a comms relay on the adl?
W.r.t the rest of the list, Im currently trying my hand at an air-cav vostroyan army, bringing 2-3 vendettas (and vulture on occasion), so ideally I want them in asap...
im leaning towards the astropath, sure he is a small, vunerable squad, but i dont know if its worth giving up the quad gun. Although, since the comms relay isnt emplaced, it cant be destroyed, can it?
japehlio wrote: This has probably been discussed before, but which is generally better, an astropath in my CCS, or a comms relay on the adl?
W.r.t the rest of the list, Im currently trying my hand at an air-cav vostroyan army, bringing 2-3 vendettas (and vulture on occasion), so ideally I want them in asap...
im leaning towards the astropath, sure he is a small, vunerable squad, but i dont know if its worth giving up the quad gun. Although, since the comms relay isnt emplaced, it cant be destroyed, can it?
It can't be destroyed, but you can have models killed off of it. If you put an astropath in your CCS, and put the CCS in a Flyer, your opponent won't have much luck denying you a 2+ reserve roll.
japehlio wrote: This has probably been discussed before, but which is generally better, an astropath in my CCS, or a comms relay on the adl?
W.r.t the rest of the list, Im currently trying my hand at an air-cav vostroyan army, bringing 2-3 vendettas (and vulture on occasion), so ideally I want them in asap...
im leaning towards the astropath, sure he is a small, vunerable squad, but i dont know if its worth giving up the quad gun. Although, since the comms relay isnt emplaced, it cant be destroyed, can it?
It can't be destroyed, but you can have models killed off of it. If you put an astropath in your CCS, and put the CCS in a Flyer, your opponent won't have much luck denying you a 2+ reserve roll.
I *certainly* could be wrong on this, but I thought they FAQ'd it so that if something was not on the table it did not affect reserve rolls (e.g., warlord trait for -1 reserves, master of the fleet, astropath).
Either way, it should be relatively easy to hide your CCS somewhere with limited, or no, LOS so that it survives the one turn of shooting necessary to impact your reserve rolls turn 2. If your opponent is so dead-set on wiping it out to get the astropath I would call it a huge win. Even if the CCS and astropath die before it helps your rolls, you did just have a 30pt upgrade draw a huge amount of attention from the rest of your force.
Buy camo cloaks for the CCS or just have them go to ground behind the aegis line and they should be all set.
japehlio wrote: This has probably been discussed before, but which is generally better, an astropath in my CCS, or a comms relay on the adl?
W.r.t the rest of the list, Im currently trying my hand at an air-cav vostroyan army, bringing 2-3 vendettas (and vulture on occasion), so ideally I want them in asap...
im leaning towards the astropath, sure he is a small, vunerable squad, but i dont know if its worth giving up the quad gun. Although, since the comms relay isnt emplaced, it cant be destroyed, can it?
It can't be destroyed, but you can have models killed off of it. If you put an astropath in your CCS, and put the CCS in a Flyer, your opponent won't have much luck denying you a 2+ reserve roll.
I *certainly* could be wrong on this, but I thought they FAQ'd it so that if something was not on the table it did not affect reserve rolls (e.g., warlord trait for -1 reserves, master of the fleet, astropath).
Either way, it should be relatively easy to hide your CCS somewhere with limited, or no, LOS so that it survives the one turn of shooting necessary to impact your reserve rolls turn 2. If your opponent is so dead-set on wiping it out to get the astropath I would call it a huge win. Even if the CCS and astropath die before it helps your rolls, you did just have a 30pt upgrade draw a huge amount of attention from the rest of your force.
Buy camo cloaks for the CCS or just have them go to ground behind the aegis line and they should be all set.
FAQ's say nothing of the sort, luckily. Hiding them in reserves is still a quite viable option.
You're totally right Captain, I was apparently thinking of the Warlord trait going away when your Warlord is killed, and misremembering the ruling as being broader than it was.
That's a close one, but I think I'd slightly prefer the astropath. Portable, adds a wound to the CCS, and can be hidden better.
As for the deathstrikes, start by taking 3 of them with camo cloaks and an ADL. You're pretty likely to start getting shots in on turn 2/3.
I'd probably pair it with stormtroopers, honestly. The combination of huge blast templates and 30 guys running around in their backfield at the beginning of the game is going to be more than a little disruptive. You can just spend the rest on troops or fliers or something, and they probably won't be seriously threatened until the end of the game (but by then, there might not be much of your opponent left on the board).
How does the deathstrike blast interact with your own troops? As its not technically a blast can we just pick any spot we feel like? Or do we need to place it so as it cant hit friendlies.
spears wrote: How does the deathstrike blast interact with your own troops? As its not technically a blast can we just pick any spot we feel like? Or do we need to place it so as it cant hit friendlies.
But you don't know how large the blast is until after you've rolled for scatter and the final position is marked. Before that point, when you're choosing the target point, it's just a single point. So you can legally place it close enough to your own units that you'll probably catch them in the blast, as long as the target point is centered over an enemy model.
But you don't know how large the blast is until after you've rolled for scatter and the final position is marked. Before that point, when you're choosing the target point, it's just a single point. So you can legally place it close enough to your own units that you'll probably catch them in the blast, as long as the target point is centered over an enemy model.
It would seem you simply can't place it within 4" of a friendly model, as that is the minimum size of the blast.
TheCaptain wrote: It would seem you simply can't place it within 4" of a friendly model, as that is the minimum size of the blast.
But there's no rule that says you can't. The rule is that you can't place the blast template over a friendly model, and at the time you place a Deathstrike template the "template" is just a point with zero radius. You don't have a template that could possibly be over a friendly model until after the final location has been determined.
you will be able to shoot a bunch of missels every turn
Obviously you take Manticores if you want to win. The point here was to do something fun and make Deathstrikes "work" regardless of how ineffective it is, so "don't take Deathstrikes" isn't very helpful advice.
It's definitely a lot of dakka... it just seems too risky to be effective
It you camp it behind an aegis defense line its pretty safe against anything that's not blast, but will it kill 160 points worth of models? Most likely it will (if it lives to shoot), but we have assess to much better tanks that have the potential to kill 2-3x more points that they cost
I think the biggest thing the deathstrike suffers from is unrealistic expectations. I mean, really, it's a 160 point tank. It's not SUPPOSED to horribly annihilate your opponent's entire army. If it manages to blow up a leman russ, or a few terminators, then it's done its job.
Just a Lurker here and i thought i'd throw in my .02 worth:
Deathstrike Missiles are hilarious, and its great seeing an opponent's face when it goes off. And the more the merrier in a casual / friendly game, but no-way no-how should they be included in a competitive or even semi-competitive list. It def takes away too many spots needed for Russes and Ordnance
Anyway give me your opinion (if you want) to this 1500 points army.
I have been using it since the 6th update last year and it has done pretty friggan well for me
This leaves me with about 19 points left over. My strategy is ALL about sitting back and shooting the living daylights out of my opponent. and my Vendettas do a great job of sweeping up any leftovers.
So thoughts and ideas to better my list, oh Nobel Sirs?
Lews Therin wrote: So thoughts and ideas to better my list, oh Nobel Sirs?
It's terrible. Other than the Medusas and Vendettas you have nothing but lasguns (and sniper rifles, which are just as bad). This means that your Medusas are an obvious turn 1 target, so they won't survive to shoot twice (if they even get one shot). Then your Vendettas are next to die, and since nothing else in your list is a threat even opponents who don't bring much AA can afford to just throw up a wall of fire at them. End result: once those six models die all you can do is remove casualties and hope the game ends before your opponent can finish tabling you.
To fix it you need more heavy and special weapons. Every infantry squad should have a LC and either a melta or plasma gun, your Commissar should become a CCS with 4x melta and ride in a Vendetta, and both PCS should have 4x flamers and ride in the other two Vendettas. Then, since you're not playing a mech list and have no real AV 12 saturation you should consider swapping the Medusas for LR Demolishers.
Here are my thoughts and reasons on what you said:
Everything's parked behing my aegis defense line. and the medusea are covered with a meat shield of guardsmen. and i don't use heavy weapons in my PIS because 60 guardsmen with FRF SRF pumps out a crazy amount of hits when anyone MEQ or TEQ get close. and thats after my opponent walk / drives thru medusa pie plates and Detta lascannon shots. That def softens up anybody.
Target Priority is key, Medusas go after Heavy units and my Vendettas target air units or Tanks depending on whats more dangerous to my Infantry Blob. My Commissar uses the Quad gun to also hunt down Flyers plus gives Ld buffs to my Command squads issuing orders (i.g. FRF SRF and "Get back into the fight"). and while your right i have 6 vehicles that are High Priority. together they can take out whatever can hurt them first. and if i get a glance or two its not the end of the world. We're Guard. We take multiples of everything.
The reason i dont split up my squads and use Vets in the Dettas is because we're waaaay too squishy of an army to split up our men and run around. They "might" complete their job and "maybe" clear an objective. But those are really big "ifs" and then your dead. So i Blob up with a commissar and fire 60+ shots.
Also i use my Command Squads to issue orders, if they die in a flaming Detta wreck because i made them into Spec weapon squads. Then i lose the ability to issue those orders, also there is a range to their orders. So that would limit my Dettas to where they could fly. and Dettas are so free spirited it would be a shame to chain them to stay close to my Guard Blob.
And as to swapping the medusas out for Demolishers is 90 points... Medusas have 12" more range and fire the exact same S n AP plus they are 30 points cheaper. and in a 1500 point game points matter alot.
All in All tho great ideas and tips, a bit expensive points wise, but welcomed. Thanks
Lews Therin wrote: Everything's parked behing my aegis defense line. and the medusea are covered with a meat shield of guardsmen. and i don't use heavy weapons in my PIS because 60 guardsmen with FRF SRF pumps out a crazy amount of hits when anyone MEQ or TEQ get close. and thats after my opponent walk / drives thru medusa pie plates and Detta lascannon shots. That def softens up anybody.
Except that:
1) Your Vendettas won't arrive and draw fire until turn 2, so on turn 1 your Medusas die to focused fire from everything in your opponent's army.
2) Medusas are only AV 12 open-topped vehicles. Anyone with a proper amount of anti-tank firepower (IOW, enough to deal with 10+ tanks) will kill them effortlessly from across the table, and your meatshields do nothing to stop it.
3) Lasguns do nothing to vehicles. Once your few real guns are destroyed all you can do against vehicles is remove the models they kill.
4) Adding heavy weapons doesn't keep you from using FRFSRF. A blob shooting FRFSRF and LCs will do more damage than a blob with just FRFSRF.
and while your right i have 6 vehicles that are High Priority. together they can take out whatever can hurt them first.
But you don't have them together. Your Vendettas must start in reserve, so on turn 1 all you have on the table is three Medusas and a quad gun (everything else doesn't count, as it is not a threat). Your chances of having three Medusas and a quad gun at the end of the first turn are pretty much nonexistent, and then once your Vendettas arrive they will be the only targets on the table and your opponent can focus on them.
and if i get a glance or two its not the end of the world. We're Guard. We take multiples of everything.
You're going to get more than a glance or two. You're probably going to lose all three Medusas before your Vendettas arrive, and then the Vendettas not long after that.
The reason i dont split up my squads and use Vets in the Dettas is because we're waaaay too squishy of an army to split up our men and run around.
There is no splitting up. The PCS can not join the combined squad, so either you have a 5-man squad on the ground or a 5-man squad in a Vendetta. If durability is a priority then the choice is obvious.
They "might" complete their job and "maybe" clear an objective. But those are really big "ifs" and then your dead. So i Blob up with a commissar and fire 60+ shots.
See above about not being able to put a PCS into a combined squad. A squad hiding in a Vendetta until late and then maybe claiming an objective is contributing much more than five lasguns on the ground.
Also i use my Command Squads to issue orders, if they die in a flaming Detta wreck because i made them into Spec weapon squads. Then i lose the ability to issue those orders, also there is a range to their orders. So that would limit my Dettas to where they could fly. and Dettas are so free spirited it would be a shame to chain them to stay close to my Guard Blob.
If you love FRFSRF (IMO only the CCS has useful orders) then take some flamer SWS to go in the Vendetta. And then give each PCS a lascannon so they actually contribute something.
And as to swapping the medusas out for Demolishers is 90 points... Medusas have 12" more range and fire the exact same S n AP plus they are 30 points cheaper. and in a 1500 point game points matter alot.
Medusas are great, but only when you have a lot of other vehicle threats on the table to spread out your opponent's anti-tank firepower. In a list without Chimera spam it's too easy for your opponent to focus every single anti-tank gun onto the fragile Medusas. In your kind of list the Leman Russes are a far better choice, since their AV 14 makes them completely immune to autocannons and very durable against other long-range guns.
in what game do 3 AV 12 vehicles get popped the first round of the game? and on that same vein of questioning how many 1500 point armies have the capacity to deal with 10+ tanks and still be even semi-competitive?
You are right lasguns are worthless against vehicles or honestly most things. But in numbers they can definately wear down and opponents units. But no, not vehicles at all.
Adding a Lascannon to each of my PIS would help, so would adding meltas. But its the point costs. at higher point games (i.e. 1750, 1850, 2000, 2500) i do have Lascannons, Meltas and Plasma in all of my squads. because your right it does help. again 1500 points.
If you read the rules on FRF SRF its for lasguns only. in fact it says "models firing lasguns" now i could be wrong. they might have FAQ this... but wouldn't the FAQ'd +1 attack still be talking about lasguns?
Okay so because this seems to be the crux of your issue with my list i will try to explain the 3 medusas: At the beginning of the game i have them placed where they will b difficult to hit or fire upon. Now i don't know what ur meta is like where you play, but where we play we have a pretty good amount of terrain on the board. so tucking my medusas somewhere where they wont be shelled the first game is fairly easy. Now on the other hand my infantry get hit a ton first turn normally, but thats kinda what their there for and with 60+ they can take it. So then by turn two i have my vendettas out killing, and my medusas are shelling the enemies units into the ground. I hope that answers your questions as to how my medusas are effective and used.
As to the PCS and where they are, they have to be within 6" of their squad to issue orders to them. so usually they are as close as i can legally get them so they can add their lasgun shots to my Blobs. same goes for my CCS except they are behind my quad gun since it give just that little bit extra LOS coverage to them, and they stay within 12" of all their boys. And durability is the issue, my Dettas are out and about roughing up the opponent and my Command Squads are hiding in back of their men. The more durable position is obvious, your right.
whats not to love about FRF SRF? it gives crappy guns more shots. thats kinda the motto of the IG "We have more dice" and with 60 shots then 120 shots and at close range if your lucky 180 shots (at max and with nobody dead lol never ever would happen buuut....) that is a whole heck of a lot of shots for the enemy to swallow. can flamers do that? nope. nothing can except Lasguns with FRF SRF.
To take leman russ' i would have to cut away alot of my Blob infantry. and you really can't do that and still be an effective blob. anything under 40 guard is pretty weak sause. I don't think your getting that this is a 1500 point list. at higher levels there would be at least a couple Russes. My Executioner is great but at 230 points for a single tank... not gonna happen in a Foot guard list of 1500 points.
Yeh. *'s are arty (read-basilisk), = are foot units, // are LRBT's.
//============//
*****************
There's your tactics. Also; if you're going to advance, advance everything in a straight line, and only advance when you're positive the LRBT's have anchored your flanks/rear.
in what game do 3 AV 12 vehicles get popped the first round of the game? and on that same vein of questioning how many 1500 point armies have the capacity to deal with 10+ tanks and still be even semi-competitive?
I would laugh at 3 AV-12 tanks, and my IG lists are not super competitive. I bring 4-5 lascannons a game on just a platoon. That isn't counting MY demolishers, autocannons or hell, even my plasma guns. Turn one I zapp all three medusas from behind my aegis. I get +2 to the damage chart because you are opened top and I am AP2. Odds are, I am killing three tanks.
You are right lasguns are worthless against vehicles or honestly most things. But in numbers they can definately wear down and opponents units. But no, not vehicles at all.
Wear down what, exactly? Once your tanks are dead, I am pulling my infantry out of your 24" bubble and sending in tanks that you can not hurt.
Adding a Lascannon to each of my PIS would help, so would adding meltas. But its the point costs. at higher point games (i.e. 1750, 1850, 2000, 2500) i do have Lascannons, Meltas and Plasma in all of my squads. because your right it does help. again 1500 points.
So drop the ratlings and the bolt pistols. Those are wasted points.
If you read the rules on FRF SRF its for lasguns only. in fact it says "models firing lasguns" now i could be wrong. they might have FAQ this... but wouldn't the FAQ'd +1 attack still be talking about lasguns?
Yes, it would. You don't care about loseing two lasguns because lasguns can't reliable kill anything.
Okay so because this seems to be the crux of your issue with my list i will try to explain the 3 medusas: At the beginning of the game i have them placed where they will b difficult to hit or fire upon. Now i don't know what ur meta is like where you play, but where we play we have a pretty good amount of terrain on the board. so tucking my medusas somewhere where they wont be shelled the first game is fairly easy. Now on the other hand my infantry get hit a ton first turn normally, but thats kinda what their there for and with 60+ they can take it. So then by turn two i have my vendettas out killing, and my medusas are shelling the enemies units into the ground. I hope that answers your questions as to how my medusas are effective and used.
Turn two you MIGHT have your Vendettas killing things. Failed reserve rolls and interceptor fire can do a number on a vendettas killing power. And you can not place Medusas somewhere where I can't see them but you can see me.
Also, what if I have cover, or am a flyer myself?
As to the PCS and where they are, they have to be within 6" of their squad to issue orders to them. so usually they are as close as i can legally get them so they can add their lasgun shots to my Blobs. same goes for my CCS except they are behind my quad gun since it give just that little bit extra LOS coverage to them, and they stay within 12" of all their boys. And durability is the issue, my Dettas are out and about roughing up the opponent and my Command Squads are hiding in back of their men. The more durable position is obvious, your right.
You can't add you lasguns to your blob, they still have to fire separately because they are a separate unit. And the PCS has garbage orders.
We have already covered that your Vendettas might not be there turn 2.
If you want a foot CCS, build a foot CCS. It's just that your list isn't really lending itself to a foot CCS.
whats not to love about FRF SRF? it gives crappy guns more shots. thats kinda the motto of the IG "We have more dice" and with 60 shots then 120 shots and at close range if your lucky 180 shots (at max and with nobody dead lol never ever would happen buuut....) that is a whole heck of a lot of shots for the enemy to swallow. can flamers do that? nope. nothing can except Lasguns with FRF SRF.
What's not to love is that the lasgun is still a terrible gun. Sure, you get a lot of shots, but you need something else to help out. You will not hit all those shots as some of your guys could be out of range or you fail to hit. Then you have to wound something, which is normally on a 5+. FRFSRF is good, but not the be all end all of anti-infantry shooting.
And flamers CAN do that. Ask the Burna boys battlewagon.
To take leman russ' i would have to cut away alot of my Blob infantry. and you really can't do that and still be an effective blob. anything under 40 guard is pretty weak sause. I don't think your getting that this is a 1500 point list. at higher levels there would be at least a couple Russes. My Executioner is great but at 230 points for a single tank... not gonna happen in a Foot guard list of 1500 points.
I run 30 man blobs all the time. You just need to pressure your opponent and sit them behind cover (ADL is great for this). Sure, not as durable as a 40-50 man blob, but it is also much cheaper and easier to manage.
And we are not saying to run a 230 point tank. The demolisher is 165 and dose everything the Medusa dose AND brings AV14.
in what game do 3 AV 12 vehicles get popped the first round of the game? and on that same vein of questioning how many 1500 point armies have the capacity to deal with 10+ tanks and still be even semi-competitive?
Necrons, Tau, my IG, and almost any Marine list in Drop Pods say hello.
For 1,500, Tau can bring 3-6 railguns on fairly durable platforms, which pretty much spells doom if they manage to go first. Twin-linked Railguns penetrating on 3's and with a +3 to the chart (+2 for AP1, +1 for Open Topped) usually means dead on average rolling. Plus, Markerlights can strip your cover save. This is also ignoring the rest of the Tau army. Railguns of ANY kind are pretty much an auto-include for Tau armies, which means that the average TAC Tau list could take this one.
The Space Wolf Razorspam of old could take this list, too. All of those TL Lascannons/LasPlas Razors on the board will eat through 3 AV 12 vehicles, even if they do get a 4+ cover save.
Drop Pods also wreck this list's day. For 1,500 points, I could bring:
Spoiler:
Codex: Marines, 1,500
HQ:
Vulkan
Elites:
Sternguard
x4 Combi-Meltas
x1 HF ->Drop Pod
Dreadnought (MM/HF)
->Drop Pod
Troops:
Tactical Squad:
Flamer
->Drop Pod
Tactical Squad:
Plasma Gun
Lascannon
->Rhino
Scout Squad
Telion
Missile
Fast Attack:
Land Speeder (MM/HF)
Land Speeder (MM/HF)
Heavy Support
Whirlwind
Whirlwind
Fortifications:
ADL+ Quad Gun (Telion goes on the Quad gun for wound allocation shenanigans)
This is pretty much my standard 1,500 point list. It's not the most competitive thing ever, and I know it won't take most higher level tournies, but it does well enough my current meta, which is the shooty-as-balls Tau list I described, mech Chaos, footslogging Chaos, IG (similar to your list, actually...), and DP Wolves.
I know comparing lists in a vacuum is worthless without actually playing, but, TBH, you're putting too many eggs in one basket here, dude. The others in this thread have it right.
Why not replace the Medusae with Manticores? They're usually excellent multi-taskers.
Necrons, Tau, my IG, and almost any Marine list in Drop Pods say hello.
I agree, almost any list can deal with 3 AV:12 vehicles on turn one and every list should be able to finish them off by turn 2. They're not survivable enough.
Lews Therin wrote: in what game do 3 AV 12 vehicles get popped the first round of the game?
Every game. I use Medusas and they're often dead by the second turn, and almost never get more than two turns of shooting. And that's with multiple Chimeras full of melta vets to force hard targeting choices. When the only thing you have on the table is the Medusas every single gun in your opponent's army will be shooting at them.
You are right lasguns are worthless against vehicles or honestly most things. But in numbers they can definately wear down and opponents units. But no, not vehicles at all.
And that's the problem. You have exactly seven models which can threaten vehicles, and four of them are fragile. Once they're gone your lasguns can't do anything and you lose.
If you read the rules on FRF SRF its for lasguns only. in fact it says "models firing lasguns" now i could be wrong. they might have FAQ this... but wouldn't the FAQ'd +1 attack still be talking about lasguns?
You're missing the point. The lascannon doesn't benefit from FRFSRF, but the rest of the squad does. So you give the order to an infantry squad and you have seven models firing lasguns with an extra shot, and two models firing heavy/special weapons normally. You aren't banned from issuing FRFSRF just because some the unit isn't 100% lagsuns. And an un-boosted lascannon is far more poweful than the pair of FRFSRF lasguns it replaces.
Now i don't know what ur meta is like where you play, but where we play we have a pretty good amount of terrain on the board. so tucking my medusas somewhere where they wont be shelled the first game is fairly easy.
So how exactly do you shoot anything with the Medusas if you have them hiding in the back out of LOS?
(And if they aren't out of LOS they just have a cover save. And a cover save won't keep them alive when they're the only targets on the table.)
And durability is the issue, my Dettas are out and about roughing up the opponent and my Command Squads are hiding in back of their men. The more durable position is obvious, your right.
Apparently not obvious enough, because you missed it. A PCS staying aboard a Vendetta (AV 12, 6s to hit) until a late-game objective grab is FAR more durable than one sitting on the table.
whats not to love about FRF SRF?
It's often worse than giving BiD or FOMT to the unit. Heavy and special weapons do the majority of the killing for IG, so you want to give the orders that boost them. And of course against vehicle targets lasguns do nothing. FRFSRF can sometimes be useful in the right situation, but I wouldn't even think of planning my army around maximizing it.
I don't think your getting that this is a 1500 point list. at higher levels there would be at least a couple Russes.
Oh, I get it entirely. You have a 1500 point list that somehow manages to have the firepower of a 750 point list. I play at 1500 points most of the time and your list is full of useless point sinks and severely lacking in firepower.
Okay so what i'm getting from the feedback is add lascannons to my PICs and get some vets with meltas and plasma into my vendettas. Also get rid of the AV 12 medusas for Demos. My only concern is that this is not looking like a foot slogging army but a hybrid mix. Vets in Dettas and some infantry on the ground behind the ADL and throw in some tanks for AP 2 pie plates.
Well yall have certainly given me something to think about. I'm going to go to the drawing board and try to fit in some of the advice and see what I can do. I'll post back my newer list and how they do this weekend at my FLGS.
So, if we are in the mood to post prospective lists, I have one that I am thinking might have some merit. Based on the models I have/ stuff I am tradeing for (In this case, just one chimera), I came up with this list. It is no where near perfect, but it looks fun and might be able to do reasonable well.
IG/BA: 1850
HQ:
CCS: 160
Plasma Pistol
Lascannon
2x Plasma Guns
Carapace
Master of the Fleet
Chimera ML/HF
Allied Blood Angels:
HQ:
Librarian: 100
Blood Lance, Fear the Darkness
Elites:
Chaplin: 135
Hand Flamer
Jump Pack
Troops:
Assault Squad: 200
+5 men
2x Flamers
The librarian will roll on divination.
My idea here is that everything moves forward except for the blob, who camps my deployment behind the ADL. The Chaplin and Assault Squad will deepstrike to flame things while the rest of my army rolls around to capture objectives/fight. The CCS has the loadout it dose so that they can pull double duty, either siting next to the blob handing out FoMT (Divination will cover the rerolls) or rolling around with the other chimeras to plasma things.
Lews Therin wrote:Okay so what i'm getting from the feedback is add lascannons to my PICs and get some vets with meltas and plasma into my vendettas. Also get rid of the AV 12 medusas for Demos. My only concern is that this is not looking like a foot slogging army but a hybrid mix. Vets in Dettas and some infantry on the ground behind the ADL and throw in some tanks for AP 2 pie plates.
Well yall have certainly given me something to think about. I'm going to go to the drawing board and try to fit in some of the advice and see what I can do. I'll post back my newer list and how they do this weekend at my FLGS.
Again thank you for your comments
Medusae are fine behind an ADL, especially if you want your ground-forces to be static. Rushing demos upfield is much more dangerous than keeping Medusas behind an Aegis. Put some camo nets on the Medusas, and they'll have quite impressive survivability.
psychadelicmime wrote:One of the few things that I've learned in my short time of playing guard is to bring a master of ordnance, he is amazing.
For 30 points you're buying a basilisk shot that never hits where you want it to.
psychadelicmime wrote: One of the few things that I've learned in my short time of playing guard is to bring a master of ordnance, he is amazing.
The MoO might as well be blind. 30pts of missing every turn.
Depends if he is on foot or not, and the size of the game. On foot the ccs can issue bring it down to it's self. At 2,000 points the moo is going to hit something given 2 attempts.
I think the only time a MoO is worth it is in an Apoc game when you have a lot models packed in and your chances of hitting something go up. It might even be fun to have more than one. Otherwise I have found them to not be points well spent. All they really have is an intimidation factor against people who don't realize how ineffective they are.
schadenfreude wrote:
On foot the ccs can issue bring it down to it's self. At 2,000 points the moo is going to hit something given 2 attempts.
TheLionOfTheForest wrote:I think the only time a MoO is worth it is in an Apoc game when you have a lot models packed in and your chances of hitting something go up.
Indeed, however I wouldn't call either of those situations:
psychadelicmime wrote:amazing.
Especially when you have to consider that your CCS therefore has to fire at the same target as the MoO and sit back with a Lascannon, never moving.
Amazing would be a squad with 8-10 BS4 plasma gun shots per turn at 12".
All they really have is an intimidation factor against people who don't realize how ineffective they are.
Sorta like a gak Marbo? I really don't want people shooting at my CCSmore than they already do. It's too fragile as it is.
schadenfreude wrote:
On foot the ccs can issue bring it down to it's self. At 2,000 points the moo is going to hit something given 2 attempts.
TheLionOfTheForest wrote:I think the only time a MoO is worth it is in an Apoc game when you have a lot models packed in and your chances of hitting something go up.
Indeed, however I wouldn't call either of those situations:
psychadelicmime wrote:amazing.
Especially when you have to consider that your CCS therefore has to fire at the same target as the MoO and sit back with a Lascannon, never moving.
Amazing would be a squad with 8-10 BS4 plasma gun shots per turn at 12".
All they really have is an intimidation factor against people who don't realize how ineffective they are.
Sorta like a gak Marbo? I really don't want people shooting at my CCSmore than they already do. It's too fragile as it is.
Actually the rest of the ccs can shoot at a vehicle say with 1 tllc while the tlmoo shoots at the same vehicle, but in all honesty the target vehicle is the only thing near the vehicle that's safe from the moo.
The most valid argument against the moo is it's hard enough to keep command squads alive without drawing more attention to them while simultaneously increasing their cost.
The most valid argument against the moo is it's hard enough to keep command squads alive without drawing more attention to them while simultaneously increasing their cost.
The most valid argument is that the MoO will do nothing more than something. Your idea of how often it hits (once every two turns) is a massive over estimate.
The MoO also forces the CCS to be static, and thus limits its weapon choice.
ADL plus blobs with Lascannons and plasma guns, plus a pask punisher and executioner is awesome. There's nothing not to love, played a game with a list like this today and tabled a Dark angels player, it's just mean.
I must be the only one who doesn't put special weapons in their blob. I honestly don't see the point of putting plasma guns in the squad if I have vets in Chimeras running around with plasma/metla.
Also, are Hydras any good as a dedicated Anti-Air option?
Happygrunt wrote: I must be the only one who doesn't put special weapons in their blob. I honestly don't see the point of putting plasma guns in the squad if I have vets in Chimeras running around with plasma/metla.
Hardly. They have skyfire, but without interceptor they're often dead before they get a chance to shoot at a flyer. They're still decent as pure AA, but they fall well short of great.
Even if there are no flyers, the twin link will usually let you get a hit on something each turn.
You average about 1.3 AC hits per turn against ground targets, and a single AC hit is unlikely to do very much. For a 75 point unit that occupies a heavy support slot that's pathetic firepower. You only take Hydras if you can be confident that they're going to spend most of their time shooting at flyers, if you're expecting to do any significant amount of shooting at ground targets you should dump them.
Happygrunt wrote: I must be the only one who doesn't put special weapons in their blob. I honestly don't see the point of putting plasma guns in the squad if I have vets in Chimeras running around with plasma/metla.
More plasma guns to twin link with prescience.
And the cost of adding a special weapon to a squad is small compared to the cost of the squad. A melta gun adds a lot of firepower to the unit for only 10 points, so why would you ever decline to take one?
Tyrs13 wrote: Plasma .... a gun worth 3 guardsmen and has a chance to kill the guy shooting it ... pass.
And it has a better chance of killing the guy getting shot at, who is probably worth more than the guardsman. Gets hot is a test of skill, really. Bad or less-experienced players are afraid of the 1/9 chance of losing a model, better players understand that the firepower of a plasma gun is more important and guardsmen of any kind are expendable.
I am caught on the sniper rifle i have like 6 models with them and i have never used them. I think they could be cool 1/3 games.
Sniper rifles are terrible. They have poor average damage, and their precise shot rule is just a gimmick. Instead of wasting points on trying to snipe a specific model just buy more guns and kill the entire unit.
Happygrunt wrote: I must be the only one who doesn't put special weapons in their blob. I honestly don't see the point of putting plasma guns in the squad if I have vets in Chimeras running around with plasma/metla.
More plasma guns to twin link with prescience.
And the cost of adding a special weapon to a squad is small compared to the cost of the squad. A melta gun adds a lot of firepower to the unit for only 10 points, so why would you ever decline to take one?
Because my blob is behind an ADL for the entire game, so it feels like the 30-40 points spent on those melta guns would be wasted because they would never fire.
Happygrunt wrote: I must be the only one who doesn't put special weapons in their blob. I honestly don't see the point of putting plasma guns in the squad if I have vets in Chimeras running around with plasma/metla.
More plasma guns to twin link with prescience.
And the cost of adding a special weapon to a squad is small compared to the cost of the squad. A melta gun adds a lot of firepower to the unit for only 10 points, so why would you ever decline to take one?
Because my blob is behind an ADL for the entire game, so it feels like the 30-40 points spent on those melta guns would be wasted because they would never fire.
That's why ADL blobs should take Plasma. Especially if you have something with Prescience in there.
Stuff can easily avoid 12" meltas, but it's much harder to stay 24" from your blob.
TheCaptain wrote: Stuff can easily avoid 12" meltas, but it's much harder to stay 24" from your blob.
However, there's an opportunity cost to doing so. If you're staying outside 12" (18" really, since you can move and shoot) because you're afraid of the melta guns you've conceded possession of a pretty large area of table. And I'd say it's definitely worth 30 points to put a giant "do not enter" sign on a 12" radius area of table that just happens to contain at least one of my objectives.
TheCaptain wrote: Stuff can easily avoid 12" meltas, but it's much harder to stay 24" from your blob.
However, there's an opportunity cost to doing so. If you're staying outside 12" (18" really, since you can move and shoot) because you're afraid of the melta guns you've conceded possession of a pretty large area of table. And I'd say it's definitely worth 30 points to put a giant "do not enter" sign on a 12" radius area of table that just happens to contain at least one of my objectives.
I may try this out. All of my plasma is on Vets and my CCS, who ride around in chimeras, so I have spare melta models. I might try a 40 man blob with Meltas and Lascannons in my next practice list (because this Adeption list wont write itself).
Anyone have experience with Cyclops demo teams? I'm thinking of trying them out in a 2k tournament, and no I cannot replace them with fully painted vendettas before the gt.
Is there another reason to take storm troopers except of suicide melter deepstrikes? I really like the models but somehow i have the feeling that vets are better in every aspect.
tommse wrote: Is there another reason to take storm troopers except of suicide melter deepstrikes? I really like the models but somehow i have the feeling that vets are better in every aspect.
A couple on top of my head:
1- Backfield objective cleaner: get a couple of flamers and burn away!
2- HQ assassins: Take plasmagun for that rapid fire goodness. Now you only need to worry about invulnerable saves.
I run a mech vet list with catachan models, with heavy LR support.
2 quick questions.
- In this kind of list, how would you use Gunnery Sgt. Harker? In a chimera or not? HWT, and if yes, which one?
I have tried a couple ways, 3 melta + demolitions in chimera, 3 plasma + Lascannon camping.
- Is there a viable hybrid tactic that uses both chimera vets and infantry platoons?
I run a mech vet list with catachan models, with heavy LR support.
2 quick questions.
- In this kind of list, how would you use Gunnery Sgt. Harker? In a chimera or not? HWT, and if yes, which one?
I have tried a couple ways, 3 melta + demolitions in chimera, 3 plasma + Lascannon camping.
- Is there a viable hybrid tactic that uses both chimera vets and infantry platoons?
1. Harker should never be in a transport, his infiltrate is too valuable. Three plasma and a lascannon is supposed to be good. Don't forget to give them forward sentries so they get something near a 2+ cover save.
2. It can be viable, although it is not recommended. I have had some success with my BA/IG list, which has 4 chimeras, 2-3 leman russes and a blob supported by BA psykers.
Hi, sorry if this question's a bit wishy-washy, haven't played since I was a kid during third Edition so not very knowledgeable on tactics. I've been throwing around an idea of starting a new guard army based around a large blob to with aegis to anchor the home objective supported by 2 standard russes, SW allies for a character to stop the blob running away and some drop pods for back table shennanigans and a coupleof vendetteta vet squads to hopefully grab opponents objectives.
In unlikely event of games above 2k points I quite fancy fielding a Pask punisher (just like the thought of rolling that many dice at BS4 more than points efficiency) and upgrading the standard russes to demolishers via a cheap turret swap to keep their ranges the same for the sake of neatness Just wondering if using 30 conscripts as a screen to try get them with in 24" is viable or are they too fragile and likely to break to make this viable?
Also while a minor points, I was just wondering if its worth the points kitting out the seargant with some melta vets a plasma pistol or two being as they have they will work at the same range, and giving plasma vets grenadiers for a little bit more survivability if they have to grab the objective before the last turn and in the unlikely event the'r guns go pop on them?
Grenadiers aren't worth it. You can buy more guns with those points.
Plasma pistols on veteran sergeants can be good if you have the points spare.
You can use allied HQs to help with anchored lines, but a CCS with a Banner and LC will do the job fine, two for redundancy if you wanted, with a commissar in the blob if you aren't running MSU (although that starts eating into the lascannon fund). You'll be wanting divination mainly for the lascannons however you already get "On my Target" and "Bring it down". Space wolf stock spells can also be useful (JotWW comes to mind).
If you are running a blob and bring Vendetta's, put PCS's with 4* flamers in them. You won't waste turns of 100+ cost veterans waiting for the reserve and the opportunity to plonk em down somewhere safely.
Very handy, I'll chop the grenadiers then. Aye the Rune priest + guard blob seems a good combo, going to use a wolf lord for fluff reasons though (survivors of Armageddon, so ain't fans of Pyskers or GK), in larger point games I might make him a counts as Logan as BID + tank hunters would be pretty nasty along with scouring wolf guard, but I doubt I'll use that often due to the expense.
Nice tip with the PCS's though, would save me some points and until now was just going to give them meltas and keep them out the way to deal with deep strikers or vehicles that get to close but thats alot of points wasted if neither of those things happen. The only thing I'm worried about with using that set up with the PCS's is using flamers if I need to take an objective from MEQ/TEQ and the low numbers to survive if the battle goes another round, though I suppose with guard it doesn't make alot of difference between 5 and 10 bodies.
1. Harker should never be in a transport, his infiltrate is too valuable.
What does a transport do to limit his infiltrate or outflank abilities?
He can't infiltrate in it. Sure, if you wanted to outflank you could, but I think he is used more for infiltrating.
Infiltrate (p38), 5th para, seems to contradict. "If a unit with Infiltrate is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport, they may Infiltrate or Outflank along with their transport...." Is there something in the codex that overrides - I don't have mine with me.
1. Harker should never be in a transport, his infiltrate is too valuable.
What does a transport do to limit his infiltrate or outflank abilities?
He can't infiltrate in it. Sure, if you wanted to outflank you could, but I think he is used more for infiltrating.
Infiltrate (p38), 5th para, seems to contradict. "If a unit with Infiltrate is deployed inside a Dedicated Transport, they may Infiltrate or Outflank along with their transport...." Is there something in the codex that overrides - I don't have mine with me.
Nah, He definitely can in a Chimera.
It's just rarely anything but a waste of a Chimera.
Terrible. They were marginal in 5th when you could hide them in reserve and immediately assault something as soon as they arrived, but with the ban on assaulting out of reserve in 6th you have to put them on the table for at least a turn before you charge. And when you have a glass cannon unit like that it's going to be a priority target, so your chances of getting a successful point-justifying charge with them are pretty low.
And just to add insult to injury the Vendetta became even more overpowered in 6th, and every rough rider unit you take means one less Vendetta in your list.
and griffon heavy mortars?
Good, but situational. They're excellent light infantry killers (and very cheap) but they're not very good at anything else. So if you need maximum anti-horde firepower in your list Griffons are worth taking, if you need a more generalist unit in your heavy support slots they aren't. Of course this also changes with the point level of the game: in an 1850 game you probably can't afford to spend a valuable heavy support slot on a situational unit. In a 750 point game it's unlikely that you'll fill all three slots, so spending 75 points on a Griffon is a good investment.
ok so aside from being terrible ,,,,what are some tactics fellow commanders use?
to me RR
Pros
each gets 2 pw attacks on the charge,3 for the sarg
12inch movement,plus reroll able charge distance(I am used to charge range via fantasy
each gets an i 10 attack,,,so a horse kick to the face could kill terminators ,,Ive always fielded them right off,never in reserve,
they fit in perfectly with my theme
cons,,,I can no longer run and charge.
they are guardmen and die with any shooting
are a one trick pony,but once pointed at something I want to die and theyve done their job,they are expendable anyways.....
Griffons,,,,
Pros re rollable ordnance dice
Cons?
Aside from being open topped?
currently Im running 13 lascannons so I do not think I need basilsks?
Gomericus wrote: ok so aside from being terrible ,,,,what are some tactics fellow commanders use?
I made a cool Griffon model and it looks awesome on my display shelf. Sometimes I use it as a counts-as Chimera if I'm playing a larger game.
they are guardmen and die with any shooting
And this is the fatal flaw. You can look at their theoretical damage numbers all you want, but in a real game they get massacred by bolters and you're lucky if you have even 1-2 models survive long enough to charge, at which point you're paying way too many points for each dead marine. Vendettas kill marines better, and Vendettas actually have a purpose outside of that narrow role.
Cons?
Aside from being open topped?
That it uses up 75 points and a heavy support slot for something that is only useful against light infantry. It's a very situational unit, and in general you probably want something more versatile in those slots.
Gomericus wrote: each gets 2 pw attacks on the charge,3 for the sarg
The FAQ has removed the restriction on additional weapon attacks, so you actually get 3 attacks for normal riders, 4 for the sergeant. They can be useful but require keeping out of LOS to work. Hide them behind a ruin or a chimera wall and they can be a decent counter assault unit. If you are looking for the best unit to use they are a bit lacking, but they are not comletely useless like some units can be. Kamir is a pretty good upgrade these days too.
I did have luck with Rough Riders with the Mogul Khamir. Super fragile even though I was hiding behind a wall of LRMBTs. The 4 that were left did kill the fateweaver very handily after grounding it with a chimera (lucky shot). Long story short if you do use them I would hold them back for killing deep strikers or holding off fast assaulting things....but don't be surprised if they all die in 1 round of shooting, rogue scatter, vehicle explosion or something equally unimpressive.
For most infantry a pair of Griffons on average do twice as much damage as a LR battle cannon, including TEQ. The ONLY exception is MEQ and that is if the MEQ are not in cover. For MEQ in any kind of cover the pair of Griffons do about the same amount of damage as the battle cannon.
The pair of Griffons also performs on par with the battle cannon against vehicles that have lower side armor than front armor. If the vehicles are in cover the Griffons do better.
Granted the LR is a lot more durable, so the key here is terrain. If the terrain you are using is such that you can usually hide a Griffon out of sight for a few turns I think it is a solid choice. If not I'd go for russes.
zoat wrote: I think Griffons are slightly underrated.
For most infantry a pair of Griffons on average do twice as much damage as a LR battle cannon, including TEQ. The ONLY exception is MEQ and that is if the MEQ are not in cover. For MEQ in any kind of cover the pair of Griffons do about the same amount of damage as the battle cannon.
The pair of Griffons also performs on par with the battle cannon against vehicles that have lower side armor than front armor. If the vehicles are in cover the Griffons do better.
Granted the LR is a lot more durable, so the key here is terrain. If the terrain you are using is such that you can usually hide a Griffon out of sight for a few turns I think it is a solid choice. If not I'd go for russes.
More like severely under rated.
Against MEQ with a 5+ cover (which is easier to obtain in 6th than in 5th) a pair of griffons will out damage a battle cannon . Damage is about the same, but the griffin is tl.
Against MEQ in the open 3 griffin hits=1 battle cannon hit. Accuracy isn't straight math hammer with scatter dice, but IMO bs3 yields an acceptable scatter 1/2 the time, or 3/4 if TL. Over 2 turns a battle cannon should yield 1 acceptable hit, and a pair of griffins should yield 3. Equal damage to meq in the open, except the griffins are barrage sniping and forcing pin tests.
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Just wondering if using 30 conscripts as a screen to try get them with in 24" is viable or are they too fragile and likely to break to make this viable?