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plasma is good, not too good, but good, def worth taking, esp for guard.

a guards man with a plasma gun is 5pts + 15 pts=20 pts

GK marin w storm bolter = 20 pts

assuming they both roll to hit at the same time, edge goes to the GK,

just because the IG has a pretty good chance of failing 2 coin flips to hit, as opposed to failing two 3+ to hit with the GK

either way, things are situational, and the above mano eh mano wont really happen, nothings in a vaccuum, so it comes down to strategy,

smart IG and GK players would put them behind cover, or in a chimera ect ect...

some games you lose lots of guys to gets hot, as the probability of a 1 is the same as a 6 being rolled, its random...

some games you lose nothing

the average result is they almost always earn their points back and are the go to ap 2 weapon for a reason,

namely they rock

Peregrine, I think I can field this.

Lews Therin wrote:
@ Peregrine

in what game do 3 AV 12 vehicles get popped the first round of the game? and on that same vein of questioning how many 1500 point armies have the capacity to deal with 10+ tanks and still be even semi-competitive?

I would laugh at 3 AV-12 tanks, and my IG lists are not super competitive. I bring 4-5 lascannons a game on just a platoon. That isn't counting MY demolishers, autocannons or hell, even my plasma guns. Turn one I zapp all three medusas from behind my aegis. I get +2 to the damage chart because you are opened top and I am AP2. Odds are, I am killing three tanks.

You are right lasguns are worthless against vehicles or honestly most things. But in numbers they can definately wear down and opponents units. But no, not vehicles at all.

Wear down what, exactly? Once your tanks are dead, I am pulling my infantry out of your 24" bubble and sending in tanks that you can not hurt.

Adding a Lascannon to each of my PIS would help, so would adding meltas. But its the point costs. at higher point games (i.e. 1750, 1850, 2000, 2500) i do have Lascannons, Meltas and Plasma in all of my squads. because your right it does help. again 1500 points.

So drop the ratlings and the bolt pistols. Those are wasted points.

If you read the rules on FRF SRF its for lasguns only. in fact it says "models firing lasguns" now i could be wrong. they might have FAQ this... but wouldn't the FAQ'd +1 attack still be talking about lasguns?

Yes, it would. You don't care about loseing two lasguns because lasguns can't reliable kill anything.

Okay so because this seems to be the crux of your issue with my list i will try to explain the 3 medusas: At the beginning of the game i have them placed where they will b difficult to hit or fire upon. Now i don't know what ur meta is like where you play, but where we play we have a pretty good amount of terrain on the board. so tucking my medusas somewhere where they wont be shelled the first game is fairly easy. Now on the other hand my infantry get hit a ton first turn normally, but thats kinda what their there for and with 60+ they can take it. So then by turn two i have my vendettas out killing, and my medusas are shelling the enemies units into the ground. I hope that answers your questions as to how my medusas are effective and used.

Turn two you MIGHT have your Vendettas killing things. Failed reserve rolls and interceptor fire can do a number on a vendettas killing power. And you can not place Medusas somewhere where I can't see them but you can see me.

Also, what if I have cover, or am a flyer myself?

As to the PCS and where they are, they have to be within 6" of their squad to issue orders to them. so usually they are as close as i can legally get them so they can add their lasgun shots to my Blobs. same goes for my CCS except they are behind my quad gun since it give just that little bit extra LOS coverage to them, and they stay within 12" of all their boys. And durability is the issue, my Dettas are out and about roughing up the opponent and my Command Squads are hiding in back of their men. The more durable position is obvious, your right.

You can't add you lasguns to your blob, they still have to fire separately because they are a separate unit. And the PCS has garbage orders.
We have already covered that your Vendettas might not be there turn 2.
If you want a foot CCS, build a foot CCS. It's just that your list isn't really lending itself to a foot CCS.

whats not to love about FRF SRF? it gives crappy guns more shots. thats kinda the motto of the IG "We have more dice" and with 60 shots then 120 shots and at close range if your lucky 180 shots (at max and with nobody dead lol never ever would happen buuut....) that is a whole heck of a lot of shots for the enemy to swallow. can flamers do that? nope. nothing can except Lasguns with FRF SRF.

What's not to love is that the lasgun is still a terrible gun. Sure, you get a lot of shots, but you need something else to help out. You will not hit all those shots as some of your guys could be out of range or you fail to hit. Then you have to wound something, which is normally on a 5+. FRFSRF is good, but not the be all end all of anti-infantry shooting.

And flamers CAN do that. Ask the Burna boys battlewagon.

To take leman russ' i would have to cut away alot of my Blob infantry. and you really can't do that and still be an effective blob. anything under 40 guard is pretty weak sause. I don't think your getting that this is a 1500 point list. at higher levels there would be at least a couple Russes. My Executioner is great but at 230 points for a single tank... not gonna happen in a Foot guard list of 1500 points.

I run 30 man blobs all the time. You just need to pressure your opponent and sit them behind cover (ADL is great for this). Sure, not as durable as a 40-50 man blob, but it is also much cheaper and easier to manage.

And we are not saying to run a 230 point tank. The demolisher is 165 and dose everything the Medusa dose AND brings AV14.

Lews Therin wrote:
@ Peregrine

in what game do 3 AV 12 vehicles get popped the first round of the game? and on that same vein of questioning how many 1500 point armies have the capacity to deal with 10+ tanks and still be even semi-competitive?

Necrons, Tau, my IG, and almost any Marine list in Drop Pods say hello.

For 1,500, Tau can bring 3-6 railguns on fairly durable platforms, which pretty much spells doom if they manage to go first. Twin-linked Railguns penetrating on 3's and with a +3 to the chart (+2 for AP1, +1 for Open Topped) usually means dead on average rolling. Plus, Markerlights can strip your cover save. This is also ignoring the rest of the Tau army. Railguns of ANY kind are pretty much an auto-include for Tau armies, which means that the average TAC Tau list could take this one.

The Space Wolf Razorspam of old could take this list, too. All of those TL Lascannons/LasPlas Razors on the board will eat through 3 AV 12 vehicles, even if they do get a 4+ cover save.

Drop Pods also wreck this list's day. For 1,500 points, I could bring:



I know comparing lists in a vacuum is worthless without actually playing, but, TBH, you're putting too many eggs in one basket here, dude. The others in this thread have it right.

Why not replace the Medusae with Manticores? They're usually excellent multi-taskers.

thechosen1 wrote:

Necrons, Tau, my IG, and almost any Marine list in Drop Pods say hello.

I agree, almost any list can deal with 3 AV:12 vehicles on turn one and every list should be able to finish them off by turn 2. They're not survivable enough.

Lews Therin wrote:
in what game do 3 AV 12 vehicles get popped the first round of the game?

Every game. I use Medusas and they're often dead by the second turn, and almost never get more than two turns of shooting. And that's with multiple Chimeras full of melta vets to force hard targeting choices. When the only thing you have on the table is the Medusas every single gun in your opponent's army will be shooting at them.

You are right lasguns are worthless against vehicles or honestly most things. But in numbers they can definately wear down and opponents units. But no, not vehicles at all.

And that's the problem. You have exactly seven models which can threaten vehicles, and four of them are fragile. Once they're gone your lasguns can't do anything and you lose.

If you read the rules on FRF SRF its for lasguns only. in fact it says "models firing lasguns" now i could be wrong. they might have FAQ this... but wouldn't the FAQ'd +1 attack still be talking about lasguns?

You're missing the point. The lascannon doesn't benefit from FRFSRF, but the rest of the squad does. So you give the order to an infantry squad and you have seven models firing lasguns with an extra shot, and two models firing heavy/special weapons normally. You aren't banned from issuing FRFSRF just because some the unit isn't 100% lagsuns. And an un-boosted lascannon is far more poweful than the pair of FRFSRF lasguns it replaces.

Now i don't know what ur meta is like where you play, but where we play we have a pretty good amount of terrain on the board. so tucking my medusas somewhere where they wont be shelled the first game is fairly easy.

So how exactly do you shoot anything with the Medusas if you have them hiding in the back out of LOS?

(And if they aren't out of LOS they just have a cover save. And a cover save won't keep them alive when they're the only targets on the table.)

And durability is the issue, my Dettas are out and about roughing up the opponent and my Command Squads are hiding in back of their men. The more durable position is obvious, your right.

Apparently not obvious enough, because you missed it. A PCS staying aboard a Vendetta (AV 12, 6s to hit) until a late-game objective grab is FAR more durable than one sitting on the table.

whats not to love about FRF SRF?

It's often worse than giving BiD or FOMT to the unit. Heavy and special weapons do the majority of the killing for IG, so you want to give the orders that boost them. And of course against vehicle targets lasguns do nothing. FRFSRF can sometimes be useful in the right situation, but I wouldn't even think of planning my army around maximizing it.

I don't think your getting that this is a 1500 point list. at higher levels there would be at least a couple Russes.

Oh, I get it entirely. You have a 1500 point list that somehow manages to have the firepower of a 750 point list. I play at 1500 points most of the time and your list is full of useless point sinks and severely lacking in firepower.

Okay so what i'm getting from the feedback is add lascannons to my PICs and get some vets with meltas and plasma into my vendettas. Also get rid of the AV 12 medusas for Demos. My only concern is that this is not looking like a foot slogging army but a hybrid mix. Vets in Dettas and some infantry on the ground behind the ADL and throw in some tanks for AP 2 pie plates.

Well yall have certainly given me something to think about. I'm going to go to the drawing board and try to fit in some of the advice and see what I can do. I'll post back my newer list and how they do this weekend at my FLGS.

Again thank you for your comments

So, if we are in the mood to post prospective lists, I have one that I am thinking might have some merit. Based on the models I have/ stuff I am tradeing for (In this case, just one chimera), I came up with this list. It is no where near perfect, but it looks fun and might be able to do reasonable well.

IG/BA: 1850
HQ:
CCS: 160
Plasma Pistol
Lascannon
2x Plasma Guns
Carapace
Master of the Fleet
Chimera ML/HF

Troops:
Platoon
PCS: 50
4x flamers
Chimera: 55
ML/HF

Infantry Squad: 105
Lascannon
Commissar

Infantry Squad: 70
Lascannon

Infantry Squad: 70
Lascannon

Veterans: 155
Plasma Pistol
3x Plasma Guns
Carapace Armor
Chimera: 55
ML/HF

Veterans: 155
Plasma Pistol
3x Plasma Guns
Carapace Armor
Chimera: 55
ML/HF

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher: 165

Leman Russ Demolisher: 165

Fortification:
Aegis Defense Line: 100
Quad Gun

Allied Blood Angels:
HQ:
Librarian: 100
Blood Lance, Fear the Darkness

Elites:
Chaplin: 135
Hand Flamer
Jump Pack

Troops:
Assault Squad: 200
+5 men
2x Flamers

The librarian will roll on divination.

My idea here is that everything moves forward except for the blob, who camps my deployment behind the ADL. The Chaplin and Assault Squad will deepstrike to flame things while the rest of my army rolls around to capture objectives/fight. The CCS has the loadout it dose so that they can pull double duty, either siting next to the blob handing out FoMT (Divination will cover the rerolls) or rolling around with the other chimeras to plasma things.

One of the few things that I've learned in my short time of playing guard is to bring a master of ordnance, he is amazing.

 psychadelicmime wrote:
One of the few things that I've learned in my short time of playing guard is to bring a master of ordnance, he is amazing.

If you have 30 points to spend and your CCS will never move and you never plan on being near where that shot will be, sure.

Lews Therin wrote:Okay so what i'm getting from the feedback is add lascannons to my PICs and get some vets with meltas and plasma into my vendettas. Also get rid of the AV 12 medusas for Demos. My only concern is that this is not looking like a foot slogging army but a hybrid mix. Vets in Dettas and some infantry on the ground behind the ADL and throw in some tanks for AP 2 pie plates.

Well yall have certainly given me something to think about. I'm going to go to the drawing board and try to fit in some of the advice and see what I can do. I'll post back my newer list and how they do this weekend at my FLGS.

Again thank you for your comments

Medusae are fine behind an ADL, especially if you want your ground-forces to be static. Rushing demos upfield is much more dangerous than keeping Medusas behind an Aegis. Put some camo nets on the Medusas, and they'll have quite impressive survivability.

psychadelicmime wrote:One of the few things that I've learned in my short time of playing guard is to bring a master of ordnance, he is amazing.

For 30 points you're buying a basilisk shot that never hits where you want it to.

I'd rather have Camo netting on a CCS Chimera

 psychadelicmime wrote:
One of the few things that I've learned in my short time of playing guard is to bring a master of ordnance, he is amazing.

The MoO might as well be blind. 30pts of missing every turn.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 psychadelicmime wrote:
One of the few things that I've learned in my short time of playing guard is to bring a master of ordnance, he is amazing.

The MoO might as well be blind. 30pts of missing every turn.

Depends if he is on foot or not, and the size of the game. On foot the ccs can issue bring it down to it's self. At 2,000 points the moo is going to hit something given 2 attempts.

I think the only time a MoO is worth it is in an Apoc game when you have a lot models packed in and your chances of hitting something go up. It might even be fun to have more than one. Otherwise I have found them to not be points well spent. All they really have is an intimidation factor against people who don't realize how ineffective they are.

schadenfreude wrote:
On foot the ccs can issue bring it down to it's self. At 2,000 points the moo is going to hit something given 2 attempts.

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:I think the only time a MoO is worth it is in an Apoc game when you have a lot models packed in and your chances of hitting something go up.

Indeed, however I wouldn't call either of those situations:

psychadelicmime wrote:amazing.

Especially when you have to consider that your CCS therefore has to fire at the same target as the MoO and sit back with a Lascannon, never moving.
Amazing would be a squad with 8-10 BS4 plasma gun shots per turn at 12".

All they really have is an intimidation factor against people who don't realize how ineffective they are.

Sorta like a gak Marbo? I really don't want people shooting at my CCS more than they already do. It's too fragile as it is.

 Griddlelol wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
On foot the ccs can issue bring it down to it's self. At 2,000 points the moo is going to hit something given 2 attempts.

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:I think the only time a MoO is worth it is in an Apoc game when you have a lot models packed in and your chances of hitting something go up.

Indeed, however I wouldn't call either of those situations:

psychadelicmime wrote:amazing.

Especially when you have to consider that your CCS therefore has to fire at the same target as the MoO and sit back with a Lascannon, never moving.
Amazing would be a squad with 8-10 BS4 plasma gun shots per turn at 12".

All they really have is an intimidation factor against people who don't realize how ineffective they are.

Sorta like a gak Marbo? I really don't want people shooting at my CCS more than they already do. It's too fragile as it is.

Actually the rest of the ccs can shoot at a vehicle say with 1 tl lc while the tl moo shoots at the same vehicle, but in all honesty the target vehicle is the only thing near the vehicle that's safe from the moo.

The most valid argument against the moo is it's hard enough to keep command squads alive without drawing more attention to them while simultaneously increasing their cost.

I like my CCS with camo, LC and magic flag. It's hard enough to keep them alive with out the hate the MoO can bring.

 schadenfreude wrote:


The most valid argument against the moo is it's hard enough to keep command squads alive without drawing more attention to them while simultaneously increasing their cost.

The most valid argument is that the MoO will do nothing more than something. Your idea of how often it hits (once every two turns) is a massive over estimate.
The MoO also forces the CCS to be static, and thus limits its weapon choice.

ADL plus blobs with Lascannons and plasma guns, plus a pask punisher and executioner is awesome. There's nothing not to love, played a game with a list like this today and tabled a Dark angels player, it's just mean.

I must be the only one who doesn't put special weapons in their blob. I honestly don't see the point of putting plasma guns in the squad if I have vets in Chimeras running around with plasma/metla.

Also, are Hydras any good as a dedicated Anti-Air option?

Yes. Hydras are a great anti air unit. Even if there are no flyers, the twin link will usually let you get a hit on something each turn.

 Happygrunt wrote:
I must be the only one who doesn't put special weapons in their blob. I honestly don't see the point of putting plasma guns in the squad if I have vets in Chimeras running around with plasma/metla.

More plasma guns to twin link with prescience.

 martin74 wrote:
Yes. Hydras are a great anti air unit.

Hardly. They have skyfire, but without interceptor they're often dead before they get a chance to shoot at a flyer. They're still decent as pure AA, but they fall well short of great.

Even if there are no flyers, the twin link will usually let you get a hit on something each turn.

You average about 1.3 AC hits per turn against ground targets, and a single AC hit is unlikely to do very much. For a 75 point unit that occupies a heavy support slot that's pathetic firepower. You only take Hydras if you can be confident that they're going to spend most of their time shooting at flyers, if you're expecting to do any significant amount of shooting at ground targets you should dump them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
I must be the only one who doesn't put special weapons in their blob. I honestly don't see the point of putting plasma guns in the squad if I have vets in Chimeras running around with plasma/metla.

More plasma guns to twin link with prescience.

And the cost of adding a special weapon to a squad is small compared to the cost of the squad. A melta gun adds a lot of firepower to the unit for only 10 points, so why would you ever decline to take one?

I dont put expensive special weapons in ...

Grenade Launchers suck, but they are better then a las gun and in the right price range.

Flamers can be a big assault deterant depending on what your fighting. Are also cheap.

Melta gun/bombs are the most economic way of taking out assault vehicles/dreads. 10 points ... fine you wont regret shooting it.

Plasma .... a gun worth 3 guardsmen and has a chance to kill the guy shooting it ... pass.

I am caught on the sniper rifle i have like 6 models with them and i have never used them. I think they could be cool 1/3 games.

Tyrs13 wrote:
Plasma .... a gun worth 3 guardsmen and has a chance to kill the guy shooting it ... pass.

And it has a better chance of killing the guy getting shot at, who is probably worth more than the guardsman. Gets hot is a test of skill, really. Bad or less-experienced players are afraid of the 1/9 chance of losing a model, better players understand that the firepower of a plasma gun is more important and guardsmen of any kind are expendable.

I am caught on the sniper rifle i have like 6 models with them and i have never used them. I think they could be cool 1/3 games.

Sniper rifles are terrible. They have poor average damage, and their precise shot rule is just a gimmick. Instead of wasting points on trying to snipe a specific model just buy more guns and kill the entire unit.

 Peregrine wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
I must be the only one who doesn't put special weapons in their blob. I honestly don't see the point of putting plasma guns in the squad if I have vets in Chimeras running around with plasma/metla.

More plasma guns to twin link with prescience.

And the cost of adding a special weapon to a squad is small compared to the cost of the squad. A melta gun adds a lot of firepower to the unit for only 10 points, so why would you ever decline to take one?

Because my blob is behind an ADL for the entire game, so it feels like the 30-40 points spent on those melta guns would be wasted because they would never fire.

Tyrs13 wrote:

Plasma .... a gun worth 3 guardsmen and has a chance to kill the guy shooting it ... pass.

If you kill one Terminator, you just made back the points of almost 3 Plasma Guns.

You literally have a 1/9 chance per shot to kill your own Guardsman.

The term "a gun worth 3 guardsmen" carries less weight when you realize 3 Guardsmen aren't even 1 Marine in points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happygrunt wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
I must be the only one who doesn't put special weapons in their blob. I honestly don't see the point of putting plasma guns in the squad if I have vets in Chimeras running around with plasma/metla.

More plasma guns to twin link with prescience.

And the cost of adding a special weapon to a squad is small compared to the cost of the squad. A melta gun adds a lot of firepower to the unit for only 10 points, so why would you ever decline to take one?

Because my blob is behind an ADL for the entire game, so it feels like the 30-40 points spent on those melta guns would be wasted because they would never fire.

That's why ADL blobs should take Plasma. Especially if you have something with Prescience in there.

Stuff can easily avoid 12" meltas, but it's much harder to stay 24" from your blob.

 TheCaptain wrote:
Stuff can easily avoid 12" meltas, but it's much harder to stay 24" from your blob.

However, there's an opportunity cost to doing so. If you're staying outside 12" (18" really, since you can move and shoot) because you're afraid of the melta guns you've conceded possession of a pretty large area of table. And I'd say it's definitely worth 30 points to put a giant "do not enter" sign on a 12" radius area of table that just happens to contain at least one of my objectives.

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
Stuff can easily avoid 12" meltas, but it's much harder to stay 24" from your blob.

However, there's an opportunity cost to doing so. If you're staying outside 12" (18" really, since you can move and shoot) because you're afraid of the melta guns you've conceded possession of a pretty large area of table. And I'd say it's definitely worth 30 points to put a giant "do not enter" sign on a 12" radius area of table that just happens to contain at least one of my objectives.

I may try this out. All of my plasma is on Vets and my CCS, who ride around in chimeras, so I have spare melta models. I might try a 40 man blob with Meltas and Lascannons in my next practice list (because this Adeption list wont write itself).

Anyone have experience with Cyclops demo teams? I'm thinking of trying them out in a 2k tournament, and no I cannot replace them with fully painted vendettas before the gt.

Is there another reason to take storm troopers except of suicide melter deepstrikes? I really like the models but somehow i have the feeling that vets are better in every aspect.