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IG players of all kinds, I come to you with a quandary.

I've been staring at my codex for the past two weeks at one particular entry.

I want to figure out a way to make it fit into a list. It sounds so darn cool, and exciting, I just can't quite convince myself to run one.

What am I speaking of?
The Deathstrike, of course.

Thoughts?

One word: Orks.

You won't find an Orkier unit in the IG codex. In fact, you'd struggle to find an Orkier one in the Ork codex!

WAAAGH!

2000 points, six Deathstrike missiles, and bring plenty of cover to make sure they don't die right away. One of them will get to shoot!

Deathstrikes are terrible. Hilarious, but terrible. One of their big advantages went away with 6th, and the Countdown is almost never going to come into play thanks to Hull Points. That said, if you do get to fire one, it will make you giddy. I know it did me.

 TheCaptain wrote:
IG players of all kinds, I come to you with a quandary.

I've been staring at my codex for the past two weeks at one particular entry.

I want to figure out a way to make it fit into a list. It sounds so darn cool, and exciting, I just can't quite convince myself to run one.

What am I speaking of?
The Deathstrike, of course.

Thoughts?

Run a Bastion and hide the Deathstrike behind it.

< Taken by the void dragon. >

Whelp, If you're going deathstrike the goal is to bring six of them at 2k points and hope one or two get to fire early in the game and cause irreparable damage to your opponent. If they don't fire, you pretty much lose. If they miss, you pretty much lose. But IF they hit, it WILL be glorious.

This has probably been discussed before, but which is generally better, an astropath in my CCS, or a comms relay on the adl?
W.r.t the rest of the list, Im currently trying my hand at an air-cav vostroyan army, bringing 2-3 vendettas (and vulture on occasion), so ideally I want them in asap...
im leaning towards the astropath, sure he is a small, vunerable squad, but i dont know if its worth giving up the quad gun. Although, since the comms relay isnt emplaced, it cant be destroyed, can it?

 japehlio wrote:
This has probably been discussed before, but which is generally better, an astropath in my CCS, or a comms relay on the adl?
W.r.t the rest of the list, Im currently trying my hand at an air-cav vostroyan army, bringing 2-3 vendettas (and vulture on occasion), so ideally I want them in asap...
im leaning towards the astropath, sure he is a small, vunerable squad, but i dont know if its worth giving up the quad gun. Although, since the comms relay isnt emplaced, it cant be destroyed, can it?

It can't be destroyed, but you can have models killed off of it. If you put an astropath in your CCS, and put the CCS in a Flyer, your opponent won't have much luck denying you a 2+ reserve roll.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 japehlio wrote:
This has probably been discussed before, but which is generally better, an astropath in my CCS, or a comms relay on the adl?
W.r.t the rest of the list, Im currently trying my hand at an air-cav vostroyan army, bringing 2-3 vendettas (and vulture on occasion), so ideally I want them in asap...
im leaning towards the astropath, sure he is a small, vunerable squad, but i dont know if its worth giving up the quad gun. Although, since the comms relay isnt emplaced, it cant be destroyed, can it?

It can't be destroyed, but you can have models killed off of it. If you put an astropath in your CCS, and put the CCS in a Flyer, your opponent won't have much luck denying you a 2+ reserve roll.

I *certainly* could be wrong on this, but I thought they FAQ'd it so that if something was not on the table it did not affect reserve rolls (e.g., warlord trait for -1 reserves, master of the fleet, astropath).

Either way, it should be relatively easy to hide your CCS somewhere with limited, or no, LOS so that it survives the one turn of shooting necessary to impact your reserve rolls turn 2. If your opponent is so dead-set on wiping it out to get the astropath I would call it a huge win. Even if the CCS and astropath die before it helps your rolls, you did just have a 30pt upgrade draw a huge amount of attention from the rest of your force.

Buy camo cloaks for the CCS or just have them go to ground behind the aegis line and they should be all set.

quiestdeus wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:

 japehlio wrote:
This has probably been discussed before, but which is generally better, an astropath in my CCS, or a comms relay on the adl?
W.r.t the rest of the list, Im currently trying my hand at an air-cav vostroyan army, bringing 2-3 vendettas (and vulture on occasion), so ideally I want them in asap...
im leaning towards the astropath, sure he is a small, vunerable squad, but i dont know if its worth giving up the quad gun. Although, since the comms relay isnt emplaced, it cant be destroyed, can it?

It can't be destroyed, but you can have models killed off of it. If you put an astropath in your CCS, and put the CCS in a Flyer, your opponent won't have much luck denying you a 2+ reserve roll.

I *certainly* could be wrong on this, but I thought they FAQ'd it so that if something was not on the table it did not affect reserve rolls (e.g., warlord trait for -1 reserves, master of the fleet, astropath).

Either way, it should be relatively easy to hide your CCS somewhere with limited, or no, LOS so that it survives the one turn of shooting necessary to impact your reserve rolls turn 2. If your opponent is so dead-set on wiping it out to get the astropath I would call it a huge win. Even if the CCS and astropath die before it helps your rolls, you did just have a 30pt upgrade draw a huge amount of attention from the rest of your force.

Buy camo cloaks for the CCS or just have them go to ground behind the aegis line and they should be all set.

FAQ's say nothing of the sort, luckily. Hiding them in reserves is still a quite viable option.

You're totally right Captain, I was apparently thinking of the Warlord trait going away when your Warlord is killed, and misremembering the ruling as being broader than it was.

Very good to know!

That's a close one, but I think I'd slightly prefer the astropath. Portable, adds a wound to the CCS, and can be hidden better.

As for the deathstrikes, start by taking 3 of them with camo cloaks and an ADL. You're pretty likely to start getting shots in on turn 2/3.

I'd probably pair it with stormtroopers, honestly. The combination of huge blast templates and 30 guys running around in their backfield at the beginning of the game is going to be more than a little disruptive. You can just spend the rest on troops or fliers or something, and they probably won't be seriously threatened until the end of the game (but by then, there might not be much of your opponent left on the board).

Don't model deathstrike missiles!

How does the deathstrike blast interact with your own troops? As its not technically a blast can we just pick any spot we feel like? Or do we need to place it so as it cant hit friendlies.

 spears wrote:
How does the deathstrike blast interact with your own troops? As its not technically a blast can we just pick any spot we feel like? Or do we need to place it so as it cant hit friendlies.

It's a Blast, just doesn't have a template.

 TheCaptain wrote:
It's a Blast, just doesn't have a template.

But you don't know how large the blast is until after you've rolled for scatter and the final position is marked. Before that point, when you're choosing the target point, it's just a single point. So you can legally place it close enough to your own units that you'll probably catch them in the blast, as long as the target point is centered over an enemy model.

Instead of deathsrtikes bring manticors.

you will be able to shoot a bunch of missels every turn

 Peregrine wrote:

 TheCaptain wrote:
It's a Blast, just doesn't have a template.

But you don't know how large the blast is until after you've rolled for scatter and the final position is marked. Before that point, when you're choosing the target point, it's just a single point. So you can legally place it close enough to your own units that you'll probably catch them in the blast, as long as the target point is centered over an enemy model.

It would seem you simply can't place it within 4" of a friendly model, as that is the minimum size of the blast.

 TheCaptain wrote:
It would seem you simply can't place it within 4" of a friendly model, as that is the minimum size of the blast.

But there's no rule that says you can't. The rule is that you can't place the blast template over a friendly model, and at the time you place a Deathstrike template the "template" is just a point with zero radius. You don't have a template that could possibly be over a friendly model until after the final location has been determined.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dark1250 wrote:
Instead of deathsrtikes bring manticors.

you will be able to shoot a bunch of missels every turn

Obviously you take Manticores if you want to win. The point here was to do something fun and make Deathstrikes "work" regardless of how ineffective it is, so "don't take Deathstrikes" isn't very helpful advice.

My friend takes it all the time with his guard .... he has yet to hit anything worth it.

Not that it hasnt fired ... it just misses.

He did hit my Ksons ones ... but they are Ksons 4++ and all.

In the end we both agree .... its not the best unit in their codex. If it hits something it could be a game changer. Almost never does though.

It's definitely a lot of dakka... it just seems too risky to be effective

It you camp it behind an aegis defense line its pretty safe against anything that's not blast, but will it kill 160 points worth of models? Most likely it will (if it lives to shoot), but we have assess to much better tanks that have the potential to kill 2-3x more points that they cost

I think the biggest thing the deathstrike suffers from is unrealistic expectations. I mean, really, it's a 160 point tank. It's not SUPPOSED to horribly annihilate your opponent's entire army. If it manages to blow up a leman russ, or a few terminators, then it's done its job.

When you think about how much more damage 4 turns of shooting with a LR (or any other 150+ Tank) will do, the Deathstrike can't live up.

Just a Lurker here and i thought i'd throw in my .02 worth:

Deathstrike Missiles are hilarious, and its great seeing an opponent's face when it goes off. And the more the merrier in a casual / friendly game, but no-way no-how should they be included in a competitive or even semi-competitive list. It def takes away too many spots needed for Russes and Ordnance

Anyway give me your opinion (if you want) to this 1500 points army.
I have been using it since the 6th update last year and it has done pretty friggan well for me

HQ

Lord Commissar = 90
-Power Sword
- Carapace Armor

C.C.S. = 82
- Bolt Pistol
- Astropath

Troops

P.C.S. #1 = 32
- Bolt Pistol
3x P.I.S = 150
P.C.S. #2 = 32
- Bolt Pistol
3x P.I.S. = 150

Elites

5 Ratlings = 50

Fortification

A.D.L. = 100
- Quad Gun

Fast Attack

3x Vendettas

Heavy Support

3x Medusas

This leaves me with about 19 points left over. My strategy is ALL about sitting back and shooting the living daylights out of my opponent. and my Vendettas do a great job of sweeping up any leftovers.

So thoughts and ideas to better my list, oh Nobel Sirs?

Lews Therin wrote:
So thoughts and ideas to better my list, oh Nobel Sirs?

It's terrible. Other than the Medusas and Vendettas you have nothing but lasguns (and sniper rifles, which are just as bad). This means that your Medusas are an obvious turn 1 target, so they won't survive to shoot twice (if they even get one shot). Then your Vendettas are next to die, and since nothing else in your list is a threat even opponents who don't bring much AA can afford to just throw up a wall of fire at them. End result: once those six models die all you can do is remove casualties and hope the game ends before your opponent can finish tabling you.

To fix it you need more heavy and special weapons. Every infantry squad should have a LC and either a melta or plasma gun, your Commissar should become a CCS with 4x melta and ride in a Vendetta, and both PCS should have 4x flamers and ride in the other two Vendettas. Then, since you're not playing a mech list and have no real AV 12 saturation you should consider swapping the Medusas for LR Demolishers.

@ Peregrine

Here are my thoughts and reasons on what you said:

Everything's parked behing my aegis defense line. and the medusea are covered with a meat shield of guardsmen. and i don't use heavy weapons in my PIS because 60 guardsmen with FRF SRF pumps out a crazy amount of hits when anyone MEQ or TEQ get close. and thats after my opponent walk / drives thru medusa pie plates and Detta lascannon shots. That def softens up anybody.

Target Priority is key, Medusas go after Heavy units and my Vendettas target air units or Tanks depending on whats more dangerous to my Infantry Blob. My Commissar uses the Quad gun to also hunt down Flyers plus gives Ld buffs to my Command squads issuing orders (i.g. FRF SRF and "Get back into the fight"). and while your right i have 6 vehicles that are High Priority. together they can take out whatever can hurt them first. and if i get a glance or two its not the end of the world. We're Guard. We take multiples of everything.

The reason i dont split up my squads and use Vets in the Dettas is because we're waaaay too squishy of an army to split up our men and run around. They "might" complete their job and "maybe" clear an objective. But those are really big "ifs" and then your dead. So i Blob up with a commissar and fire 60+ shots.

Also i use my Command Squads to issue orders, if they die in a flaming Detta wreck because i made them into Spec weapon squads. Then i lose the ability to issue those orders, also there is a range to their orders. So that would limit my Dettas to where they could fly. and Dettas are so free spirited it would be a shame to chain them to stay close to my Guard Blob.

And as to swapping the medusas out for Demolishers is 90 points... Medusas have 12" more range and fire the exact same S n AP plus they are 30 points cheaper. and in a 1500 point game points matter alot.

All in All tho great ideas and tips, a bit expensive points wise, but welcomed. Thanks

Lews Therin wrote:
Everything's parked behing my aegis defense line. and the medusea are covered with a meat shield of guardsmen. and i don't use heavy weapons in my PIS because 60 guardsmen with FRF SRF pumps out a crazy amount of hits when anyone MEQ or TEQ get close. and thats after my opponent walk / drives thru medusa pie plates and Detta lascannon shots. That def softens up anybody.

Except that:

1) Your Vendettas won't arrive and draw fire until turn 2, so on turn 1 your Medusas die to focused fire from everything in your opponent's army.

2) Medusas are only AV 12 open-topped vehicles. Anyone with a proper amount of anti-tank firepower (IOW, enough to deal with 10+ tanks) will kill them effortlessly from across the table, and your meatshields do nothing to stop it.

3) Lasguns do nothing to vehicles. Once your few real guns are destroyed all you can do against vehicles is remove the models they kill.

4) Adding heavy weapons doesn't keep you from using FRFSRF. A blob shooting FRFSRF and LCs will do more damage than a blob with just FRFSRF.

and while your right i have 6 vehicles that are High Priority. together they can take out whatever can hurt them first.

But you don't have them together. Your Vendettas must start in reserve, so on turn 1 all you have on the table is three Medusas and a quad gun (everything else doesn't count, as it is not a threat). Your chances of having three Medusas and a quad gun at the end of the first turn are pretty much nonexistent, and then once your Vendettas arrive they will be the only targets on the table and your opponent can focus on them.

and if i get a glance or two its not the end of the world. We're Guard. We take multiples of everything.

You're going to get more than a glance or two. You're probably going to lose all three Medusas before your Vendettas arrive, and then the Vendettas not long after that.

The reason i dont split up my squads and use Vets in the Dettas is because we're waaaay too squishy of an army to split up our men and run around.

There is no splitting up. The PCS can not join the combined squad, so either you have a 5-man squad on the ground or a 5-man squad in a Vendetta. If durability is a priority then the choice is obvious.

They "might" complete their job and "maybe" clear an objective. But those are really big "ifs" and then your dead. So i Blob up with a commissar and fire 60+ shots.

See above about not being able to put a PCS into a combined squad. A squad hiding in a Vendetta until late and then maybe claiming an objective is contributing much more than five lasguns on the ground.

Also i use my Command Squads to issue orders, if they die in a flaming Detta wreck because i made them into Spec weapon squads. Then i lose the ability to issue those orders, also there is a range to their orders. So that would limit my Dettas to where they could fly. and Dettas are so free spirited it would be a shame to chain them to stay close to my Guard Blob.

If you love FRFSRF (IMO only the CCS has useful orders) then take some flamer SWS to go in the Vendetta. And then give each PCS a lascannon so they actually contribute something.

And as to swapping the medusas out for Demolishers is 90 points... Medusas have 12" more range and fire the exact same S n AP plus they are 30 points cheaper. and in a 1500 point game points matter alot.

Medusas are great, but only when you have a lot of other vehicle threats on the table to spread out your opponent's anti-tank firepower. In a list without Chimera spam it's too easy for your opponent to focus every single anti-tank gun onto the fragile Medusas. In your kind of list the Leman Russes are a far better choice, since their AV 14 makes them completely immune to autocannons and very durable against other long-range guns.

@ Peregrine

in what game do 3 AV 12 vehicles get popped the first round of the game? and on that same vein of questioning how many 1500 point armies have the capacity to deal with 10+ tanks and still be even semi-competitive?

You are right lasguns are worthless against vehicles or honestly most things. But in numbers they can definately wear down and opponents units. But no, not vehicles at all.

Adding a Lascannon to each of my PIS would help, so would adding meltas. But its the point costs. at higher point games (i.e. 1750, 1850, 2000, 2500) i do have Lascannons, Meltas and Plasma in all of my squads. because your right it does help. again 1500 points.

If you read the rules on FRF SRF its for lasguns only. in fact it says "models firing lasguns" now i could be wrong. they might have FAQ this... but wouldn't the FAQ'd +1 attack still be talking about lasguns?


Okay so because this seems to be the crux of your issue with my list i will try to explain the 3 medusas: At the beginning of the game i have them placed where they will b difficult to hit or fire upon. Now i don't know what ur meta is like where you play, but where we play we have a pretty good amount of terrain on the board. so tucking my medusas somewhere where they wont be shelled the first game is fairly easy. Now on the other hand my infantry get hit a ton first turn normally, but thats kinda what their there for and with 60+ they can take it. So then by turn two i have my vendettas out killing, and my medusas are shelling the enemies units into the ground. I hope that answers your questions as to how my medusas are effective and used.

As to the PCS and where they are, they have to be within 6" of their squad to issue orders to them. so usually they are as close as i can legally get them so they can add their lasgun shots to my Blobs. same goes for my CCS except they are behind my quad gun since it give just that little bit extra LOS coverage to them, and they stay within 12" of all their boys. And durability is the issue, my Dettas are out and about roughing up the opponent and my Command Squads are hiding in back of their men. The more durable position is obvious, your right.

whats not to love about FRF SRF? it gives crappy guns more shots. thats kinda the motto of the IG "We have more dice" and with 60 shots then 120 shots and at close range if your lucky 180 shots (at max and with nobody dead lol never ever would happen buuut....) that is a whole heck of a lot of shots for the enemy to swallow. can flamers do that? nope. nothing can except Lasguns with FRF SRF.

To take leman russ' i would have to cut away alot of my Blob infantry. and you really can't do that and still be an effective blob. anything under 40 guard is pretty weak sause. I don't think your getting that this is a 1500 point list. at higher levels there would be at least a couple Russes. My Executioner is great but at 230 points for a single tank... not gonna happen in a Foot guard list of 1500 points.

Yeh. *'s are arty (read-basilisk), = are foot units, // are LRBT's.


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There's your tactics. Also; if you're going to advance, advance everything in a straight line, and only advance when you're positive the LRBT's have anchored your flanks/rear.