Blaggard wrote: Peregrine: So 1 shot at BS1 is the same as 2 Shots at BS1?
No, but as much as GW sucks at game balance they aren't stupid enough to give you a choice of one shot, or two shots. You have a choice between one powerful shot, or two weaker shots. The multi-shot weapon is more likely to hit, but less likely to do anything when it does. The single-shot weapon is less likely to hit, but when it does it is more likely to kill the target.
And this is a mathematical fact:
Average damage (weapon 1) = P(to-hit) * P(to-wound/pen for W1) * P(not-saved for W1) * (# of shots for W1)
Average damage (weapon 2) = P(to-hit) * P(to-wound/pen for W2) * P(not-saved for W2) * (# of shots for W2)
If AVG1 = AVG2 * X (IOW, 2 is X times better than 1) then you can just divide both sides by P(to-hit), the BS factor and you get the exact same result. Set BS to anything you want, remove it entirely, the answer is exactly the same. Weapon 2 will still be X times better than weapon 1 whether it's BS 1 or BS 10.
Or, to bring it back to the topic, weapons that have a higher rate of fire are not better than weapons with a lower rate of fire when the maths makes those shots have a equal chance to do damage when it comes to snap firing.
If we're snap firing 1 melta or 2, 2's gonna be better. If we snapfire a single lasgun, 2's gonna be better. If we snapfire a AC at a incoming horde, it's gonna be better than snap firing a LC at the incoming horde.
I was thinking about adding a bit about price, but I decided to do this instead.
If AVG1 = AVG2 * X (IOW, 2 is X times better than 1) then you can just divide both sides by P(to-hit), the BS factor and you get the exact same result. Set BS to anything you want, remove it entirely, the answer is exactly the same. Weapon 2 will still be X times better than weapon 1 whether it's BS 1 or BS 10.
Fully aware, but the wording earlier made it seem like "1 melta snapfiring is just as good as 2 melta's snapfiring". If you were to have said "a weapon that snapfires a single shot is as effective as a weapon that fires multiple shots but the end result is the same chance of an effect happening, it doesn't matter if there's more shots, the end effect is going to be averagely the same" I wouldn't have asked.
Or, to bring it back to the topic, weapons that have a higher rate of fire are not better than weapons with a lower rate of fire when the maths makes those shots have a equal chance to do damage when it comes to snap firing.
If we're snap firing 1 melta or 2, 2's gonna be better. If we snapfire a single lasgun, 2's gonna be better. If we snapfire a AC at a incoming horde, it's gonna be better than snap firing a LC at the incoming horde.
I was thinking about adding a bit about price, but I decided to do this instead.
Ok, now you are either just being stubborn or trolling. Yes, snap firing an autocannon at an incoming horde is better than snap firing a lascannon at that horde. But guess what, firing an autocannon REGULARLY at that horde is better than firing the Lascannon regularly at that horde. And guess what, the difference between snap-firing the autocannon and snap-firing the lascannon amounts to the exact same reduction in performance. Snap firing 100 autocannons at an infinite swarm of enemies causes 33 fewer casualties than shooting them regularly. Snap firing lascannons at that same infinite horde also also causes 33 fewer casualties than normal shooting would. You are entirely missing the point that the ability to snap fire doesn't magically make multi-shot weapons like the autocannon better than a single shot weapon like the lascannon.
It was a different argument. I was thinking 2 shots of the weapon A > 1 shot of weapon A, they were thinking 2 shots of Weapon A <=> 1 shot of weapon B.
No differentiation was made between Weapon A and B until I asked peregrine whether 2 shots wasn't better than 1.
RegalPhantom wrote: You are entirely missing the point that the ability to snap fire doesn't magically make multi-shot weapons like the autocannon better than a single shot weapon like the lascannon.
I am not. I misread what was said earlier. I know that BS is a constant and there is no logarithmic scale going on.
When this subtopic was first being talked about no-one differentiated because different strengths and different APs. Some people instantly thought "Oh, multishot is a AC and single shot is a LC" yet I thought "Oh, multishot is 2 shots, single shot is 1 shot, of the same weapon".
Every explanation up until specific weapons were mentioned did not say that we were discussing 2 entirely different weapons. That is why I changed Ail's quote.
I'm amazed no-ones posted for 2 days. Save yourself.
I htink all IG tactics boil down to is spamming stuff. Spamming scoring units, spamming HWs, spamming SWs, spamming tanks, spamming air. Without spam, what are we?
Blaggard wrote: I'm amazed no-ones posted for 2 days. Save yourself.
I htink all IG tactics boil down to is spamming stuff. Spamming scoring units, spamming HWs, spamming SWs, spamming tanks, spamming air. Without spam, what are we?
Cannon fodder.
Anyways, I pretty much find this is the case. Whenever I try to take a balanced approach I end up doing poorly.
What do people think of the Reconnaissance Special ops the Stormtroopers can have?
I know Airborne Assault sounds the most advantageous, but you can always land in difficult terrain without having to roll for Dangerous terrain sounds advantageous enough.
AA is still better. Having only 12" from the board edge to get stuff into melta range isn't nearly as good as anywhere on the board. The reward greatly outstrips the risk.
The only time I've done outflanking stormtroopers was with flamer stormies against a GK player with coteaz and warpquake everywhere.
Yeah if you go melta. Plasma stormtroopers can always allow themselves to be more distant form their target so you got a little more, and can always help survival in the long run (and diverting fire)
sehguhdier wrote:Yeah, but cheaper weapons it's better because you aren't "wasting" so many points.
But better weapons are still better.
You won't always be snap firing, and when you do, I'd much rather have a weapon that has a serious chance of actually DOING something if I manage a 6 to hit.
But as far as I see it, and I think he will agree, it's less about direct "this weapon costs too much" and moreso "this weapon costs too much for what it does."
Guard weapons generally are priced rather well, with a few exceptions;
Heavy flamer for 20 points? No. 10 points would be reasonable, 15 would even be reasonable if it was guaranteed that you could get it into combat every game.
Missile launcher would be fine at 10 points, because it fills a similar niche to the autocannon, and with similar effectiveness.
Everything else is pretty good, and for the most part it comes down to carrier tax, and what other functions the carriers will be filling.
sehguhdier wrote:Yeah, but cheaper weapons it's better because you aren't "wasting" so many points.
But better weapons are still better.
You won't always be snap firing, and when you do, I'd much rather have a weapon that has a serious chance of actually DOING something if I manage a 6 to hit.
Yep, also true. And when you fire lascannons you can make a cool laser noise!
Blaggard wrote:When is cost too much for a weapon, ail?
No. At least, not per se.
If there's anything I've learned over my time playing 40k, it's there is no substitute for effectiveness. Either that land raider is dead, or it isn't. Either that barge lord walks, or he skims in a HP5 vehicle with an S10 weapon that he doesn't have to get out to use. Etc. In the end, you can think of 40k as the amount of damage you do over time. Everything you damage now doesn't damage you later, and so forth. As such, with the exception of claiming and holding objectives, the only thing that's important is how much damage that you do, and how quickly you do it.
As such, cost isn't nearly the first thing I consider when I look at a weapon. Everything I look at first has to do with a weapon's effectiveness, because that's the only thing that actually matters. Cost only shows up at the end of the list-building process, which is when I start to look at things like efficiency, as it can sometimes be possible to wring a little bit more effectiveness out of a list by changing things around in order to get more or better guns.
So yes, there are some things that are egregious offenders of cost-per-killy, but in the end, my complaint is about the lack of killy, not the high price tag. That said, efficiency is a poor substitute for effectiveness. You should only care about how much something costs in the lens of how to make a list as a whole hit your opponent earlier, harder, and more often.
Which, of course, is why I come down on the lascannon side of lascannon v. autocannon and on the meltagun side of melta v. plasma. If you have to spend a few extra points, or make some other concessions in order to kill your opponent's stuff before it has a chance to do something, then so be it. The extra little sacrifice is going to be nothing compared to when your entire strategy falls apart because something that you needed to kill didn't die, or didn't die fast enough.
One of my experiences around here is that the majority of players are SM players, and they are right in your face turn one.
It occurs to me that ST squads dropping in behind the lines wouldn't really be that effective because all of his vehicles have mostly deposited their cargo by turn 2, and they aren't really in his own deployment zone anymore. I am beginning to doubt my idea of using a barrage heavy force also. Since most of what I would be firing at is probably in my own lines unless I get lucky on turn one with firing. And even then, I still have doubts about what Griffons can do to vehicles. Basilisks might be better, because they might be able to guarantee the death of those vehicles, but still, it seems to me they would end up mostly firing direct during every game.
Well, if your opponent likes to rush you, they are likely to have objectives in their deployment zone held by some kind of minimal troop choice. These make perfect targets for STs and barrage, although you probably don't want to use too much. Just enough to harass and knock them off the objectives, maybe pick up linebreaker with STs.
Valhalla130 wrote: One of my experiences around here is that the majority of players are SM players, and they are right in your face turn one.
It occurs to me that ST squads dropping in behind the lines wouldn't really be that effective because all of his vehicles have mostly deposited their cargo by turn 2, and they aren't really in his own deployment zone anymore. I am beginning to doubt my idea of using a barrage heavy force also. Since most of what I would be firing at is probably in my own lines unless I get lucky on turn one with firing. And even then, I still have doubts about what Griffons can do to vehicles. Basilisks might be better, because they might be able to guarantee the death of those vehicles, but still, it seems to me they would end up mostly firing direct during every game.
Thoughts?
If you largely face armies that get in your face; Medusas.
Trickstick wrote:Well, if your opponent likes to rush you, they are likely to have objectives in their deployment zone held by some kind of minimal troop choice. These make perfect targets for STs and barrage, although you probably don't want to use too much. Just enough to harass and knock them off the objectives, maybe pick up linebreaker with STs.
Yeah, I was going to say, stormies and barrage weapons make a lot of sense. Plus, basilisks still work against stuff right in front of you. They're just a bit less accurate, is all.
Medusas, basilisks and stormtroopers would all be good options here, depending on the specifics of your meta.
Well, and a griffon would be crazy easy to convert. While other artillery pieces have all these extra tubes and flanges and widgets, the griffon really is little more than a tube.
Go to the hardware store and get a piece of plasticard (to make the side walls that the griffon has, and a bit of aluminum tubing (or get some plasticard tubing from amazon), and just stick a couple of regular guys on the back, and you'll be good.
I strongly disrecommend doing this, since Medusas are a terrible unit. Imagine a Vindicator with +12" range. Sounds great, right? Except then you realize that it costs 20 points more for AV 12/10/10 open-topped. To make matters worse, it's a priority target, so nearly any army that is threatened by it can pick it off before it fires more than once or twice.
I think literally every other artillery piece in the Codex is better than the Medusa, including the Deathstrike Missile. At least they can mitigate their defensive weaknesses via Line of Sight denial...
Kingsley wrote: I strongly disrecommend doing this, since Medusas are a terrible unit. Imagine a Vindicator with +12" range. Sounds great, right? Except then you realize that it costs 20 points more for AV 12/10/10 open-topped. To make matters worse, it's a priority target, so nearly any army that is threatened by it can pick it off before it fires more than once or twice.
I think literally every other artillery piece in the Codex is better than the Medusa, including the Deathstrike Missile. At least they can mitigate their defensive weaknesses via Line of Sight denial...
Well this is...just silly. Medusae are excellent, and if you are facing too much heavy long-range Anti-armor, you stuff them behind cover/LOS until stuff is in range.
Saying the deathstrike is better then the Medusa...well, come on. It makes you look clueless on the matter. No offense intended.
That and Medusas have Barrage, which makes them a lot better at killing stuff in cover that isn't area terrain. I think I'd still prefer a Vindicator because of the higher BS, but it doesn't mean the Medusa is terrible.
creeping-deth87 wrote: That and Medusas have Barrage, which makes them a lot better at killing stuff in cover that isn't area terrain. I think I'd still prefer a Vindicator because of the higher BS, but it doesn't mean the Medusa is terrible.
If Medusas had Barrage, they'd be great. But they don't, so they die instantly against almost any opponent with good target priority. You can fix their survivability to an extent with ACC/camo netting, but then they cost way too much. It's really a losing battle IMO.
DKOK used to get barrage medusas, although they have since been brought in line with the current stats. Barrage medusa with 24-120 range for 100 points. Sure, it was immobile, but it was awesome. Probably a good thing they changed it really.
I still like the idea of a 3 Griffon squadron dropping ordnance on a unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How about this? Sponsons on Leman Russ' or not? I got to where I ran them without sponsons in 3rd edition. And I sort of think they look sleeker that way, but then, them looking like big behemoths is part of their charm.
Kingsley wrote: If Medusas had Barrage, they'd be great. But they don't, so they die instantly against almost any opponent with good target priority. You can fix their survivability to an extent with ACC/camo netting, but then they cost way too much. It's really a losing battle IMO.
This is how I feel to be honest. Although I've never fielded a Medusa so I can't really comment. At 130pts I feel like I can spare the extra 35pts to grab a demolisher instead.
If you pay for bastion breacher shells (which is the only apt comparison), you're losing closed-top and AV14, but you're also gaining a small price break, a small blast template (so they're more accurate), +1S (which is important against vehicles), and, holy of holies, Ap1, which straight-away makes them 50% more likely to wreck what they hit.
Comparing them to a demolisher, they're now even cheaper (in this case, 30 points), don't require you to expose yourself out of cover (the difference between 24" and 36" is rather pronounced), and gives you not only a wider variety of targets, but it means you can hammer on stuff a lot better turn 1. Plus, now that the demolisher has behemoth, the medusa is also faster in the rare case you're going to want to move it. And that's important too, you don't HAVE to move them as much, so you get more flexibility.
Comparind them to a vindicator makes no sense, as the guard codex can't take vindicators. If you're talking about allies, then you need to add the ally tax onto the price of the vindicator. It also doesn't qualify as an "IG tactics/tricks", as it would be about a unit from a different army.
Medusas are awesome. They have one very important thing that the Demolisher and Vindicator lack: 36" range. That extra 12" of range is often the difference between settling for a mediocre shot on turn 1 and dropping that nice pie plate of death on a priority target. Sure, losing AV 14 hurts, but I'd rather have a tank that does a ton of damage on turn 1-2 before dying than a tank that does less damage before being killed or shaken by melta/lascannons/etc almost as fast.
Also, the Armageddon-pattern Medusa is a beautiful model, especially if you take the time to properly detail the interior and add crew.
I guess it burns down to risk vs reward with the Medusa - as I said, I've never used one, but it appears that it has the potential to really put down some hurt quickly. Textbook glass cannon.
Well, it's also a damage thing. If your opponent is good about displacement, and about keeping choice targets out of range, it could well be until turn 3 before the demolisher has a chance to really sink its teeth into something. That amount of wasted time is a serious liability. You want your support units hitting fast and hard right away. Well, there are some support units for which this isn't true (like stormtroopers), but the demolisher isn't really an exception to this rule.
The range and now lack of speed issue make the demolisher a defensive weapon for wailing on deepstrikers and the like, rather than an offensive weapon. If you want an offensive weapon, you need more speed or more range, both of which the medusa gives you.
Personally, though, I'm having a hard time seeing the benefit of the medusa over the basilisk nowadays. Yes, yes, the basilisk won't hurt terminators, etc, but I have the rest of my army to deal with that. The thing with the basilisk, though, is that its barrage rules more than make up for the 1 point drop in Ap, due to sweeping away cover saves (especially on night fighting games, depending), and you also hit on side armor, rhinos, but it does make a difference against russes, chimeras, and battlewagons.
If what's important is turn 1 and turn 2 damage, I think I'd rather have basilisks in this case. I'd say manticores, but you can't squad them.
Valhalla130 wrote: So.. is putting more than one Basilisk in a squadron a good idea? Do you really need three Bassies firing at the same target?
Two is generally a decent idea.
The difference is pretty big. With one, even if it hits the whole squad, unless you wound every single guy; squad won't be wiped. Having two allows you to put more hits than there are squadmembers, meaning squad-wiping becomes a much more real possibility.
Yeah, and I don't know if I'd do three of something in a single squad unless I was spamming the HELL out of it. The 9 basilisks at 1850 points list, for example.
I also like the idea of two though. Not only for the above reason, but also because you're talking about a somewhat fragile unit that squadding them up helps reduce VP loss on (on purge and big guns missions).
I mean, if you have four russes, two squads of two is probably going to be better than two squads of one and one squad of two. Killing a single russ is difficult, but accomplishable. Killing both russes to claim that victory point is going to be a different matter, especially when you start talking about squad shenannigans, like moving the vehicle with fewer HP back behind the other squadmember.
TheCaptain wrote: The difference is pretty big. With one, even if it hits the whole squad, unless you wound every single guy; squad won't be wiped. Having two allows you to put more hits than there are squadmembers, meaning squad-wiping becomes a much more real possibility.
IMO this was a better idea before barrage weapons lost direct fire. The multiple barrage rules really hurt your accuracy, and taking a squadron of two instead of two single models leaves you vulnerable to a badly missed first shot ensuring that your second shot misses as well. And with a 36" minimum range the chances of badly missing the first shot are pretty bad.
Ailaros wrote: It also makes it so that if you hit on the first die, then the second one can only scatter so far.
Multiple barrage is a wash, accuracy-wise.
Actually that's a terrible thing. If you roll a direct hit with the first shot the minimum (and only) scatter distance for the next shot(s) is 5". If you have LOS to the target, that's equivalent to rolling an 8, or 1" more than the average scatter distance for a single shot. Sure, you rule out the worst cases, but only at the cost of ruling out the best cases and settling for a result that's worse than average.
This is why the "use a Griffon to help the other artillery" idea is so stupid, you pay 75 points to make your other shot worse.
Except that you don't. If you roll a HIT on your followup shot, you can place it however you want as long as you overlap the original blast marker. It only flips if you scatter.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: Except that you don't. If you roll a HIT on your followup shot, you can place it however you want as long as you overlap the original blast marker. It only flips if you scatter.
Err, we know that. We're talking about the case where it does scatter.
I give my captain a power fist. He's got a decent WS, multiple wounds, and an invul save. Plus, your opponent is going to try and kill him. The powerfist is cheap, and gives him a real chance in close combat, plus, it actually makes him rather beaty against small or injured squads, especially if you give him some help from like a priest or Kell or something.
As for junior officers, don't bother. They're guardsmen who can give orders. Not very likely to survive to do anything useful with expensive pistol and close combat upgrades.
Borderline cheesy trick: Put 3 vehicles with long-rage guns on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad (parked in a corner) with the sides up, giving them all a 4+ invulnerable save. I ran against this last week with my DE army and got utterly mauled, even after devoting as much firepower as absolutely possible at it.
Commander: Power sword/plasma pistol
Lt#1: same as commander
Lt#2: bolt pistol
2 Sarges are power maul/bolt pistol, 2 are naked
Vet Sgt got 2 bolt pistols.
Thanks. It sounds like it all boils down to your personal playing style and what works for you. I just ran through a few lists in Army Builder with the IG models I have and even without adding in wargear, I came out with two platoons with 4 IS each and three Russ'. Plus my manticore and a penal squad. I'm seriously thinking about just running the penal squad as a regular squad. That way i can see it on the table top, and not have to worry about it.
OTOH, it would be the one fun, fluffy thing in my list... so I'll post my list later when I get off work for you guys to take apart and see where that gets me.
Penal legions are weak true, but they are scout AND stubborn, so always a nice unit to be a torn in a side; or a troops choice that,ll be ignorted and control an objective.
My Company Commander gets dual plasma pistols, my platoon commanders get laspistols and close combat weapons. Officers are for giving orders and occasionally doing a little bit of shooting. Sergeants and infantry squad commissars are for facepunching.
What kind of squads should get Commissars?
Are they best when put with a Vox?
Do they go best in squads with a naked Serg, or do you kit him out, too?
Do you upgrade the Commissar?
Commissars are a boon when they are in a blob, due to stubborn, also Ld9 on orders is a good thing, the vox reroll also helps to not have to shoot your sergeants. I plan on making a small blob with the Sgts with power mauls and the commissars with a power Axe, and everyone with bolt pistols (for 2 pts you get Str4/AP5 over Str3AP-? Yes please) so it’ll give the blob some teeth in melee/challenges.
How about this? Sponsons on Leman Russ' or not? I got to where I ran them without sponsons in 3rd edition. And I sort of think they look sleeker that way, but then, them looking like big behemoths is part of their charm.
I'm also interested in peoples opinions on this as in my planned army I am running 3 Russes (2 LRBT & 1 Executioner) and have not bought sponsons for them. Thoughts?
You can just stop it there. That's all you need to know about them.
Skinnereal wrote:What kind of squads should get Commissars?
Blobs. Pretty much nothing else.
Skinnereal wrote:Are they best when put with a Vox?
Nah. The commissar already makes the squad pass orders on Ld9 (or 10 if it's a lord). The vox becomes pretty unlikely to be used by that point.
Skinnereal wrote:Do they go best in squads with a naked Serg, or do you kit him out, too?
I wouldn't bother with power blobs anymore. Shooty blobs may be fine, though. In that case, other than MAYBE plasma pistols, I'd just leave them alone
Skinnereal wrote:Do you upgrade the Commissar?
Power weapon or nothing. Even the long odds of a commissar burning himself with a pistol aren't worth the damage output.
Valhalla wrote:Sponsons on Leman Russ' or not?
Yes sponsons.
With the new heavy rules, russes are now basically super up-armored HWSs. Sponsons are a very cheap way to add a bunch more firepower into your army, and they do it on a very durable frame as well.
Obviously you have to be a little more careful when talking about an LRBT or a demolisher, as they cause the rest to snap fire, but it can still be worth it here. For example, 20 points is still pretty cheap for 3 heavy bolters, even if they're snap firing. Also, you can always think of a sponsoned LRBT as being a tank with two fire modes. In this case, you gain the benefit of flexibility, and still for pretty cheap. For example, you can have bolters along with the main gun and then shoot the main gun at everything unless there are AV10 skimmers or monstrous creatures or terminators in front of you, in which case you can switch the tank into dakka mode for that turn.
Something I'm seriously considering running right now is an LRBT with sponson multimeltas. The battlecannon shoots at stuff unless really hard targets get in its face, in which case, it switches to multimelta. Between the battlecannon and the multimeltas, there isn't very much this tank can't handle.
Alrighty I think I'll contribute a bit -
Stormtroopers - Generally I run as follows
10 man x2 Plasma guns - 195 points , I build this to assassinate enemy HQ's and claim enemy ADL's when they have a gun emplacement , since my local meta is Space Marines and Necrons this works out fairly well , any other contributions ?
Melta bombs are <3, glanced the last hull point of a landraider with, really worth it, imo. Especially on a squad that will be in range since they'll come out of the Hades Breaching Drill, and they can throw demolition charge, too, so that's a lot of heavy damage.
Ok, the russes I have planned all have hull lascannons. Taking your points on board I can see that making sense with the executioner, but less so with the LRBT. I can see the appeal of extra cheap guns in the form of heavy bolters, it must also help with weapon destroyed results given that they're now randomly chosen.
Which are the best sponsons to take on the Executioner? my gut says extra PC but what do you think? If I'm taking sponsons should I just stick with the hull HB?
wildboar wrote: Ok, the russes I have planned all have hull lascannons. Taking your points on board I can see that making sense with the executioner, but less so with the LRBT. I can see the appeal of extra cheap guns in the form of heavy bolters, it must also help with weapon destroyed results given that they're now randomly chosen.
Which are the best sponsons to take on the Executioner? my gut says extra PC but what do you think? If I'm taking sponsons should I just stick with the hull HB?
Yeah, but those plasma sponsons have "Gets Hot", while the main Executioner cannon doesn't. I'm torn on this one. I'd really hate to pay 40 points to glance my own vehicle, but in 5th, they were so awesome...I still remember my buddy getting his LR across the field, and a whole squad of dual LC termies come pouring out, with a priest and a captain (BA). They wiped my bubblewrap squad, just like I was hoping, and then I rolled 5 direct hits with the scatter dice
All of my Leman Russ' have hull lascannons built in. This was back in the day when that was what came on a Leman Russ. I don't plan to pull them off either. So, I have hull lascannons and HB sponsons. Again, that's what they cam with at the time, so that's the way they're modeled.
Come to think of it, this seems to be a lesson to learn how to magnetize, since rules change.
Which are the best sponsons to take on the Executioner? my gut says extra PC but what do you think? If I'm taking sponsons should I just stick with the hull HB?
Yeah, but those plasma sponsons have "Gets Hot", while the main Executioner cannon doesn't. I'm torn on this one. I'd really hate to pay 40 points to glance my own vehicle,
I see this argument for not using PC sponsons a lot "I could kill my own vehicle." I'll just throw in the main counter arguments I use.
1) Risk vs Reward. 40pts gives your Executioner 2/3 of the main gun again, which is incredibly cheap, which is balanced out by if you roll a 1, followed by <4 you can lose an HP. It drastically increases the points efficiency of what is a rather inefficient tank. It raises the ability of the tank to kill most of a squad, to comfortably wiping out a squad of MEQ or TEQ per turn.
The Executioner fills the role of "I take this to kill stuff" so it needs to put out as much damage as possible as quickly as possible for it to be worth taking in the first place. It has no other role and therefore it must excel at that one role, which it wouldn't do if you ignored the PC sponsons. It will be shot at, and potentially take damage from the sponsons (although quite unlikely) but it will also put out 2/3 more fire power on one target, and thus (as is the best way to analyse kill only units) will be more likely to make its points back.
2) You don't have to fire them. This sounds silly compared with my last point, but if the only target is easily killed by the 3 main cannon shots, you don't need to risk the over-heat. Obviously this is a poor situation, but it happens.
Ailaros wrote: I give my captain a power fist. He's got a decent WS, multiple wounds, and an invul save. Plus, your opponent is going to try and kill him. The powerfist is cheap, and gives him a real chance in close combat
The more games I play, the more I consider doing this, but then something screams "where would you get the points from?!" and I reconsider. The reason I'd like to do it, is that my captain generally does end up in CC, and usually survives one round only to hit back and ping off the enemy's armour with his las pistol and CCW. Those 20pts (or 25 I forget) means I could have the possibility of slapping around one of those guys who gets into combat with me. It's just...I'd have to give up a gun or two to afford something that might work.
It's probably drastically swayed by the fact we're playing a campaign and there are extra rewards for killing the warlord in a challenge that makes it so common, and my poor captain so consistently picked on.
Ailaros wrote: I give my captain a power fist. He's got a decent WS, multiple wounds, and an invul save. Plus, your opponent is going to try and kill him. The powerfist is cheap, and gives him a real chance in close combat
The more games I play, the more I consider doing this, but then something screams "where would you get the points from?!" and I reconsider. The reason I'd like to do it, is that my captain generally does end up in CC, and usually survives one round only to hit back and ping off the enemy's armour with his las pistol and CCW. Those 20pts (or 25 I forget) means I could have the possibility of slapping around one of those guys who gets into combat with me. It's just...I'd have to give up a gun or two to afford something that might work.
It's probably drastically swayed by the fact we're playing a campaign and there are extra rewards for killing the warlord in a challenge that makes it so common, and my poor captain so consistently picked on.
I've been thinking about giving my captain a Power Maul - gives him S5, normal initiative, plus an extra attack over the PF, and for less cost. Sure, it doesn't pen MEQ/TEQ like a PF, but how often does your captain even live to swing that fist? And its better than a PF against everything but MEQ/TEQ (1 less strength offset by 1 more attack, lower cost, possible to reduce opponents initiative).
Which are the best sponsons to take on the Executioner? my gut says extra PC but what do you think? If I'm taking sponsons should I just stick with the hull HB?
Yeah, but those plasma sponsons have "Gets Hot", while the main Executioner cannon doesn't. I'm torn on this one. I'd really hate to pay 40 points to glance my own vehicle,
I see this argument for not using PC sponsons a lot "I could kill my own vehicle." I'll just throw in the main counter arguments I use.
1) Risk vs Reward. 40pts gives your Executioner 2/3 of the main gun again, which is incredibly cheap, which is balanced out by if you roll a 1, followed by <4 you can lose an HP. It drastically increases the points efficiency of what is a rather inefficient tank. It raises the ability of the tank to kill most of a squad, to comfortably wiping out a squad of MEQ or TEQ per turn.
The Executioner fills the role of "I take this to kill stuff" so it needs to put out as much damage as possible as quickly as possible for it to be worth taking in the first place. It has no other role and therefore it must excel at that one role, which it wouldn't do if you ignored the PC sponsons. It will be shot at, and potentially take damage from the sponsons (although quite unlikely) but it will also put out 2/3 more fire power on one target, and thus (as is the best way to analyse kill only units) will be more likely to make its points back.
2) You don't have to fire them. This sounds silly compared with my last point, but if the only target is easily killed by the 3 main cannon shots, you don't need to risk the over-heat. Obviously this is a poor situation, but it happens.
Lets see, It'll normally fire every sponson every turn, so 8 times over a game. Theoretically, you only have a 1/12 chance of losing a HP each shot, so thats only 2/3 HP each game...I think you've convinced me. I love the killy tank
Why would you take a power weapon on a senior officer when you could take a fist? It seems like you'd have to be really stretching for points before those last 5 made this decision seem worthwhile.
As for flamer vets, I can see them in a harkerstar to keep away close combat (their one weakness), but not otherwise. As for flamer stormies, I love them. Deepstriking means that they can get those flamers in nice and close, and can do it from whichever direction will give them the most hits. Combined with the hellguns, they do a superb job of throwing enemy scoring units off of objectives. Take them in 10-man squads for best effect.
As for plasma sponsons on an exterminator, I'm not a big fan. Against proper displacement, you're looking at getting 1 or 2 hits per turn at the cost of a 1/3rd chance to knock a hull point off of your own vehicle. I don't know if I'd bother with them even if they were free, much less 40 points.
I just realized today that although the codex discussed superheavy tanks, and they now make a Shadowsword and Baneblade kit, the IG codex does not include any info for those at all. Just one little fluff piece.
Bobthehero wrote: Melta bombs are <3, glanced the last hull point of a landraider with, really worth it, imo. Especially on a squad that will be in range since they'll come out of the Hades Breaching Drill, and they can throw demolition charge, too, so that's a lot of heavy damage.
Only on squads guaranteed to be in range of charging before they get shot to bits.
Valhalla130 wrote: I just realized today that although the codex discussed superheavy tanks, and they now make a Shadowsword and Baneblade kit, the IG codex does not include any info for those at all. Just one little fluff piece.
That's because they are Apocalypse-only units which are found in the Apocalypse expansion.
Valhalla130 wrote: I just realized today that although the codex discussed superheavy tanks, and they now make a Shadowsword and Baneblade kit, the IG codex does not include any info for those at all. Just one little fluff piece.
Valhalla130 wrote: I just realized today that although the codex discussed superheavy tanks, and they now make a Shadowsword and Baneblade kit, the IG codex does not include any info for those at all. Just one little fluff piece.
Same reason the SM dex doesn't have Thunderhawks.
And no codex has Titan rules.
Aren't they FW, though?
GW's Baneblade sits enticingly on the IG shelf in the store, and you don't find out you can't use it without Apoc until you've read the codex.
Just hope the Redshirt is up to scratch.
Which are the best sponsons to take on the Executioner? my gut says extra PC but what do you think? If I'm taking sponsons should I just stick with the hull HB?
Yeah, but those plasma sponsons have "Gets Hot", while the main Executioner cannon doesn't. I'm torn on this one. I'd really hate to pay 40 points to glance my own vehicle,
I see this argument for not using PC sponsons a lot "I could kill my own vehicle." I'll just throw in the main counter arguments I use.
1) Risk vs Reward. 40pts gives your Executioner 2/3 of the main gun again, which is incredibly cheap, which is balanced out by if you roll a 1, followed by <4 you can lose an HP. It drastically increases the points efficiency of what is a rather inefficient tank. It raises the ability of the tank to kill most of a squad, to comfortably wiping out a squad of MEQ or TEQ per turn.
The Executioner fills the role of "I take this to kill stuff" so it needs to put out as much damage as possible as quickly as possible for it to be worth taking in the first place. It has no other role and therefore it must excel at that one role, which it wouldn't do if you ignored the PC sponsons. It will be shot at, and potentially take damage from the sponsons (although quite unlikely) but it will also put out 2/3 more fire power on one target, and thus (as is the best way to analyse kill only units) will be more likely to make its points back.
2) You don't have to fire them. This sounds silly compared with my last point, but if the only target is easily killed by the 3 main cannon shots, you don't need to risk the over-heat. Obviously this is a poor situation, but it happens.
I agree, I would always use PC's on my Executioner, because:
1. They just fit so well with the main weapon. It would be like taking a pair of autocannon sponsons on an Exterminator (Imagine if you could do that!) or more realistically, HB sponsons on a Punisher.
2. The Executioner even got better as a Heavy vehicle, because now it can move 6" and fire what basically is 5 PC's and a HB!
3. You already take the Executioner to kill things dead, this upgrade will really help get you that result. I have not in any situation wished that I hadn't bought those sponsons.
4. I have found that Leman Russ variants rarely die of lost hull points over a period of time. For me they either die in a volley of meltaguns or being assaulted by something nasty in close combat. Neither of those situations would have a different outcome of you had 1, 2 or 3 hullpoints when it happened.
I always put plasma cannons on my executioners. They're just way too much extra firepower to ignore. Plus, you only have a 1/4 chance of losing a hullpoint per turn if you fire both the sponsons, so it's a very worthwhile risk in my opinion, since most things kill it outright with explode results.
As for the whole displacement thing, you would think that, until you remember all the things that deepstrike, get bunched up due to terrain, pile out of a wrecked/exploded vehicle, poor consolidate moves from close combat, etc. I've been finding that more often than not, you can find a worthwhile target for them. The only situations where the enemy was truly able to maximize his spread to shaft the cannons was either when I had already lost, or I had killed so much of his army that he had plenty of room to spread out his few surviving models. Plus against armies like foot IG, nids, and green tide orks, the sheer amount of models, terrain, and other factors often prevents you from maximizing proper spread, so it usually works out ok there as well.
Either way, it's the equivalent of an AV14 middle finger of death that you're pointing at your opponent. I love taking that variant and at this point am just trying to think of a list that maximizes it's potential. That said and done though, it's kind of in a similar situation as the punisher. It's awesome and hits like a train when used correctly, but it's a whole lotta awesome for a whole lotta points. It's not like a LRBT where you can just chuck it in a list and expect it to fill in all the gaps.
I'm not sure I could field a good 2000 point list from that. Maybe I should set my sights lower and try for 1000 or even 1500 right now. There needs to be some adjustment to those quantities.
Any suggestions? I would like to get a Valkyrie/Vendetta to accompany them and either another couple of Griffons or a Basilisk.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and I would like to get 20 of the newer stormtroopers to go with them, which is why I said I may as well count the beret troopers as regular IG.
And since I'm listing them, I might as well show the sea of white primer... heh...
If that's not enough to field a halfway decent list, then I dont want to live on this planet anymore.
I'm roughly at the same spot as you, just more infantry and no ordnace batteries (I've got something like 7 russes though. Just picked up a FW executioner for 25 bucks the other day )
I'd say you could easily field a strong hybrid list, using the chimeras for mechvets along with some russes/artillery protected by a platoon. Not exactly NOVA material, but it would be a solid enough list to hold its own in a typical pick up game. A 1,500 to 1,000 pt game you would definitely have everything you could want to succeed, except for the obvious lack of plasma of course.
I could put together two platoons with Ac's in the command squad and 3 ICs each with lascannons. Then run the manticore and some Russ'.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Alas, I'll probably never field the Ogryns again, especially as those models are really showing their age. The Rough Riders look better, but won't likely be used either. I've never used them. At the least the ogryns had a few turns at bat.
My Rough Riders were modeled after the 3rd ed codex came out, that's why they don't have lances. They're all holding chain swords or laspistols. If I ever used them, I would count them as having lances under the current set of rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Is there any point giving extras to Chimeras, like stormbolters or extra armor?
As for the whole displacement thing, you would think that, until you remember all the things that deepstrike,
This is why in my local meta, the Executioner is king. The sheer number of BA players, demons and C:SM/CSM with DS terminators just makes the executioner stand out in my list. Everyone hates it and it requires a very careful bubble-wrap due to it being a massively high target priority, but 5 blasts on a deep striking squad? They're gone.
Well, unfortunately, the Valhallans weren't modeled with plasma guns. I could find some more old beret Stormtroopers on ebay, I guess. Or finally learn how to convert a Valhallan plasmagunner.
Valhalla130 wrote: Well, unfortunately, the Valhallans weren't modeled with plasma guns. I could find some more old beret Stormtroopers on ebay, I guess. Or finally learn how to convert a Valhallan plasmagunner.
2 Easy options:
1. Just make a plasma squad out of a different style of guardsman model. Explain them as another regiment's specialists seconded to your army to fill losses/compensate for your regiment's lack of owning any plasmaguns in their armory.
2. Model up your plasma squads in Cadian plastics, then greenstuff parka hoods, and other little wintery stuff. Explain them off as your regiments specialists in different armor more suited to their role. I use Cadians in my Elysian army for my squad of plasmavets. "Combat Engineers".
MrMoustaffa wrote:As for the whole displacement thing, you would think that, until you remember all the things that deepstrike,
This is why in my local meta, the Executioner is king.
And which is why, at my local meta, executioners are worthless. Basically there are two things they will come up against.
1.) displaced infantry.
2.) deepstriking units that will kill the executioner in one shot when they land.
Even the exceptions to this are very circumventable. You can bubble wrap tanks, for example, but not against long-range anti-tank. The exterminator more than any other russ is dependent on your opponent making things easy for you. If your opponent is making things easy for small blast weapons for you, then you'd be much better off spamming grenade launcher SWSs.
Valhalla130 wrote:Well, unfortunately, the Valhallans weren't modeled with plasma guns.
Fortunately, they were modeled with worthless grenade launchers, and in a pose that will be easy to convert. Just get yourself a rotary tool (or borrow one like I do), and it will be pretty easy to remove and replace with a nice plastic plasma gun.
MrMoustaffa wrote:As for the whole displacement thing, you would think that, until you remember all the things that deepstrike,
This is why in my local meta, the Executioner is king.
And which is why, at my local meta, executioners are worthless. Basically there are two things they will come up against.
1.) displaced infantry.
2.) deepstriking units that will kill the executioner in one shot when they land.
Oh I understand, when I make a TAC list for tournaments I leave the Executioner at home, despite my urge to bring it from its stellar performances at my FLGS.
I've actually seen it done before with praetorians as well.
Metal is a HUGE pain in the ass to work with, but given that this is a relatively easy conversion, if you've got the right tools, it shouldn't be too bad to make a half dozen of them.
Do people in your area never use transports? Because that's where the executioner is best, blow the transport up with another unit, drop mass plasma and wipe the squad out before it can spread out to avoid the templates.
If the vehicle is wrecked, the unit inside gets to disembark, making displacement easy, and if the vehicle explodes, the guys inside can go to ground to get a generous cover save.
In any case, people around my place MSU transport spam. Scoring squads that comprise of 3x henchmen in a rhino, for example. Small blast weapons are killed off in the list building phase, much less on the table.
Plus, to reiterate, if you're able to get a lot of hits with small blasts, then it's time to spam grenade lauchers as they can put out a LOT more blasts for much cheaper.
Ailaros wrote: If the vehicle is wrecked, the unit inside gets to disembark, making displacement easy, and if the vehicle explodes, the guys inside can go to ground to get a generous cover save.
If you're wrecked, you have to disembark entirely within 3" of an access point. Wreck a Chimera and the only way to place a 10-man squad is to blob them up in base contact. Wreck a Rhino with more than a 5-man squad and they might be able to use the side access points to spread out a bit, but still won't be at maximum 2" coherency.
If you explode, you have to disembark into the footprint of the model. Even 5-man squads don't have room to spread out very much, and 10-man squads are going to be packed in with no space between them. Sure, you can go to ground for 3+ cover, but only at the cost of doing anything useful next turn. You're still going to take casualties, and since you can't move you're going to be right back where you started for my next shooting phase: packed into perfect template formation, and forced to either go to ground and be useless or hope to survive with just a 5+.
In any case, people around my place MSU transport spam. Scoring squads that comprise of 3x henchmen in a rhino, for example. Small blast weapons are killed off in the list building phase, much less on the table.
If you're facing 3x henchmen squads why are you even considering plasma weapons at all? Of course in that limited scenario you don't take an executioner, but you also don't take any other Leman Russ.
Plus, to reiterate, if you're able to get a lot of hits with small blasts, then it's time to spam grenade lauchers as they can put out a LOT more blasts for much cheaper.
Much cheaper, but STR 3 vs. STR 7, AP - vs. AP 2, garbage if they only hit one model per blast vs. still lethal if it only hits one model per blast, worthless against vehicles vs. decent against vehicles, on fragile infantry vs. on AV 14. If all you care about is blast template count, sure, take the GLs. If you want the most effective weapon, don't.
not to try the drag the thread backwards (I've been out of the look for a few days and left my rulebook out in the car, and its snowing) But what is the point in the dual plasma pistols, I might have missed it it but cant a infantry model only shoot one weapon per shooting phase?
As for the idea that the LR Executioner is weak because it sometimes only hits one model per template, is it really? Let's compare it to a 4x plasma CCS, the most efficient way of getting plasma guns. We'll assume that the CCS shoots normally from outside 24" (a reasonable average of shooting twice as much inside 12", but not at all between 24-36"), while the Executioner always hits exactly one model per shot (a conservative average). Conveniently a 4x plasma CCS for 110 points gets almost as many hits as the 190 point Executioner. To bring it up to an even 3 plasma hits we need to add another 0.5 plasma gun, or 12.5% of the unit. Total cost: 125 points for the Executioner-equivalent CCS.
So, is it worth it? For 65 points you get AV 14, a hull gun with the option to upgrade it to a cheaper than normal lascannon, no more "gets hot", and the option to take two more plasma cannons. You do lose orders, but we're assuming a plasma delivery CCS, which may or may not ever be in a position to issue an order. Overall I think it's a pretty reasonable trade, 65 points is a lot, but over an entire game the Executioner is likely to do more damage as the fragile CCS takes casualties (often to its own guns).
And the best part? This is a conservative guess. As soon as the Executioner starts hitting more than one model per shot the numbers swing decisively in its favor.
6th Edition introduced the "Gunfighter" rule. A model armed with 2 pistols can fire both of them as a shooting attack. It has given new life to Seraphrim, and given IG Veteran Sergeants, Commissars, and officers a whole new way to kill themselves.
It also makes for some truly heinous Blood Angel Honour Guard squads.
Ir0njack wrote: not to try the drag the thread backwards (I've been out of the look for a few days and left my rulebook out in the car, and its snowing) But what is the point in the dual plasma pistols, I might have missed it it but cant a infantry model only shoot one weapon per shooting phase?
Peregrine wrote:If you're wrecked, you have to disembark entirely within 3" of an access point.
Plenty of space, and the guys that stay in the vehicle get cover.
Peregrine wrote:If you're facing 3x henchmen squads why are you even considering plasma weapons at all? Of course in that limited scenario you don't take an executioner, but you also don't take any other Leman Russ.
It's not limited, though. It's also 5x squads in razorbacks, vet squads in vendettas, min-sized warrior and immortal squads in arks and fliers, and more. There are plenty of ways to do MSU transport spam. Against none of these will an executioner be all that great. And since they're not good against hordes, we're talking about the narrow range of exterminators being GOOD, not bad.
Peregrine wrote:
Plus, to reiterate, if you're able to get a lot of hits with small blasts, then it's time to spam grenade lauchers as they can put out a LOT more blasts for much cheaper.
If all you care about is blast template count, sure, take the GLs. If you want the most effective weapon, don't.
For the price of a las/plas executioner, you can get 5 grenade launcher SWSs.
Let's be generous to the small blast, and say that you get 9 hits apiece when you hit, which will happen about half the time. In this case, the executioner will get about 22.5 hits, with an extra half a hit for the lascannon. Meanwhile, the grenade launchers get 67.5 hits. Or, put another way, three times as many hits. Yes, the grenade launchers are less likely to wound, and allow armor saves (but if we want to be realistic, we have to introduce cover as well to tamp down on the plasma deaths), but you're still putting out a lot of damage with the grenade launchers. If we're talking about killing marines, the executioner is only slightly beating the grenade launchers, and that's before we consider the 15 lasguns, the fact that the infantry can take orders, and that they can score, and that they're much better against light vehicles and infinitely better against fliers.
If you're in a meta where your opponents like to take 10-man terminator squads, place all the models in base to base contact, and march them out in the open, then fine, take exterminators. Grenade launchers are still better against most opponents thus cursed with stupidity. Against players who know what cover means, and knows what displacement means, then good luck doing very much.
If you're wrecked, you have to disembark entirely within 3" of an access point. Wreck a Chimera and the only way to place a 10-man squad is to blob them up in base contact. Wreck a Rhino with more than a 5-man squad and they might be able to use the side access points to spread out a bit, but still won't be at maximum 2" coherency.
I find that when transports are wrecked, my opponent will rather clump up out of LoS of my bigger guns, maybe letting a few stragglers show their face. Of course this can't happen every time. Relying on the scatter to catch more of the out of LoS infantry causes more problems due to the whole "you need LoS to allocate wounds" argument, which frankly I can't be bothered to argue against during a game because it seems so asinine and isn't worth the break in immersion.
Ailaros wrote: Plenty of space, and the guys that stay in the vehicle get cover.
You only get to stay in the vehicle's footprint if the vehicle is exploded, if it's just wrecked you have to disembark entirely within 3" of an access point before the vehicle is removed. And if the vehicle explodes you have to stay entirely in the footprint of the vehicle, you don't get that 3" disembark range. Either way it's a great way to have your squad nice and densely packed.
If we're talking about killing marines, the executioner is only slightly beating the grenade launchers, and that's before we consider the 15 lasguns, the fact that the infantry can take orders, and that they can score, and that they're much better against light vehicles and infinitely better against fliers.
And we're also ignoring three other very important facts:
1) The Executioner is AV 14, while the SWS are small squads of T3/no-save infantry. In terms of single-shot firepower they might come close, but even basic bolters are going to massacre the SWS and quickly cut their firepower, while the Executioner is impossible to stop by anything short of anti-tank weapons, and even those have trouble killing it.
2) Remember that thing about firepower concentration that you like to bring up? You know, how LCs are better than ACs because you pack more shots into a single efficient package and can concentrate it better? Well, Executioners are LCs and SWS are ACs.
3) SWS are 0-2 in a platoon, so you need to buy at least three infantry platoons before you can even consider the SWS. If you weren't already buying those units then the cost of the grenade launchers goes up considerably.
Against players who know what cover means, and knows what displacement means, then good luck doing very much.
And, as I've said before:
1) You can't always displace. Came in by deep strike? The Executioner executes. Just lost your transport? Well, you also lost your life. Etc.
2) Displacing often means giving up cover now that saves are per-model instead of per-unit. Staying at maximum coherency might hurt the Executioner's firepower, but it often also means that some of your models can't fit behind cover and are exposed to the plasma veteran squad sitting next to the Executioner.
3) Even if you only hit one model per shot the Executioner still compares pretty well to plasma CCS/veterans, the most efficient plasma gun carriers you can get. It's somewhat more expensive per shot, but AV 14 probably gives you more shots over an entire game.
After a long break from 40k playing just fantasy and FOW, I got the bug again and bought the new box and will be trading one of my fantasy armies for the IG army I sold to a friend back in 4th (which has also grown a bit since I left):
Roughly I'm looking at about 80-90 infantry, roughly half-half between Catachan and Cadia (some converted to penal and some to veterans with plasmas), a ratling and karskin squad and two command squads. Several heavy weapons teams, etc.
As per vehicles, I'm looking at 3 sentinels, 3 Leman Russes, 1 Valkyrie and 1 each of chimera, basilisk and hellhound.
I've always liked the idea of IG as a footslogging army, but everyone at my club seems to play with lots of armour and flyers nowadays.
We generally play just short of 2.000pt (1.850 to 1999).
What would you suggest I should start looking wrt new purchases and list building with this stuff?
jouso wrote: What would you suggest I should start looking wrt new purchases and list building with this stuff?
First let's see what you have:
Useful:
Any infantry with LCs, ACs, melta, plasma, and maybe flamers, since any list you can imagine will use them.
Kasrkin (stormtroopers).
Leman Russes (ideally with magnetized weapons).
Vendetta (turn your Valkyrie into one).
Basilisk.
Maybe useful:
Chimera (awesome, but to be useful you need several).
Hellhound (good in its narrow role, but do you need that role?).
Throw in the garbage:
Any infantry with mortars, HBs, MLs, GLs.
Ratlings.
Sentinels.
So, looking at this, your biggest problem is that you have a random mix of units without any unifying theme. Here's what you need to do:
1) Get rid of the bad units and don't try to use them. You're better off playing a smaller game than using the garbage units to try to maximize your points. You will be tempted because your collection is probably too small to make a focused and efficient 1850-2000 point list, but large enough to reach 2000 points if you throw in every possible unit and upgrade you can bring. Instead, stick to your plan and tell your friends you're not going to go that high until you're ready and they're going to need to bring smaller armies if they want to play you.
2) Decide if you want to do foot or mech. Each is valid, and making a compelling argument for either would take way too long to write out. Read a bunch of threads in this forum on the topic, and see which one sounds more fun. But make a choice, you're not going to have any luck if you try to mix the two with the random pile of stuff you've got now.
3) Spam whatever one you picked. If it's foot, buy more squads and arm them properly. If it's mech, buy lots of Chimeras and Vendettas. If you like Hellhounds, bring three of them. If you don't, get rid of the single one you have. Etc. Pretty much you want to pick the best unit in each FOC slot and fill your slots with it.
Give the executioner a try sometime Ailaros, it's a bit of a "home run bat", but I've found it's absolutely disgusting when played to it's strengths. In a list that is packing tons of lascannons and melta for example, it just adds more AP 2 hate at range, and gives your opponent something they absolutely want to kill, since it can kill literally anything that can't fly/is AV 14. Mob of shoota boyz? Nothing but a green stain. Deepstriking termis? Nothing but a crater will remain. Parking lot of transports? It'll just tear everything within 5 inches of the target a new one. It can even hunt some types of MC's since instead of just one big shot, it's shooting 5 smaller ones (so up to 5 plasma hits, which shouldn't be hard with a MC's base). It's a surprisingly flexible tank, and if it wasn't 230pts it would be an autoinclude. As it is now, it's a strong unit, but needs to have a list specifically built with it in mind I feel.
It's similar to stormtroopers and heavy artillery in that it's designed to do a ton of damage, and quickly. Add in that it's got an easy 12" of range on infantry carried GL's/plasma in a worst case scenario (and usually further in game, since you don't want to rush your plasma up too soon) and that's it got the armor to shrug off most of the hate directed at it, and I've found it performs excellently as a fire magnet that has earned it's reputation. If we compare it to the GL's again, yes, the GL's are getting far more hits. They're also wounding on 5's and 4's on a good day. An executioner is wounding on 2's all the way up into MC territory, and is AP2. That means that while it's not doing as many pure wounds as the GL's might put out, the ones it puts out are far more likely to stick.
But that's just what I've noticed from them. They're awesome in a foot guard list though. Something like that draws all the attention the enemy has most of the time and gives my infantry the time they need to get crap done.
And when you take 3 of the things, it just gets redic-er I mean efficient!
You know it's weird. I go to different sites and I see people espousing different things. I come here and sentinels are bad and stormtroopers are good. I go somewhere else and sentinels are good and stormtroopers are bad.
I can understand mortars and possibly missile launchers, maybe even HB's. Unless you reliably face horde armies, they don't accomplish much. But sentinels? Why are they bad?
And just for the record, I think and IG versus IG cityfight would be the pinnacle of awesome!
They are made of paper. They're inaccurate and 3 of them (with lascannons) cost more than a Vendetta, so they're not even cheap! When you compare them to a Vendetta you see why they're poor, but that said, even if we didn't have access to the Vendetta, they'd still be made of paper and hit on a 4+.
I remember before there even was a Vendetta, and we had to walk uphill to the battle, BOTH WAYS!!!! and we loved out sentinels that were made of paper, because gosh-darn-it everything else in the IG codex was made of paper too. Except our tanks, Emperor bless 'em.
Still... they had their uses. Is it just that we've gotten access to better options, or... what? I would still run mine with multi-lasers and not lascannons, too.
Still... they had their uses. Is it just that we've gotten access to better options, or... what? I would still run mine with multi-lasers and not lascannons, too.
Think about what uses they have, then think about how they try to accomplish those tasks. Also consider other options (especially when using multilasers the chimera springs to mind).
- Outflanking lascannons: this can be provided by melta suicide stormies or vendettas. Both are more accurate. - Outflanking lower str weapons: as above basically
Also take into account that now ordnance has gotten better, especially indirect which now hits side armor no matter what, the out-flanking use for them has pretty much become redundant.
- Tying up HS or troops in CC in the back field
With glances (and only 2 HP) they can't do this anymore. If they get into assault with marines they might last a round. Glances also highlight how they're made of paper, bolters can kill them. In fact bolters can easily kill them. If the unit can't hurt them, they can choose to fall back too.
They can't get cover either, it's pretty hard to get that 25% when they're such an odd shape.
I can't think of any of the old uses, I'm sure someone else might be able to fill you in better than I.
Edit: Did I mention they're made of paper? They are.
Those are all good reasons. Just syaing they're made of paper or aren't good isn't enough for me to not use something. But those clue me in pretty nicely. Thanks.
As previously mentioned, they are also relatively expensive for what they do. The only somewhat decent reason for using them is a cheap searchlight that gets upfield fairly quickly, and even then, chimeras atill beat them at it.
What would you suggest I should start looking wrt new purchases and list building with this stuff?
Thanks!
Peregrine's list of what is good and what should be shelved, unfortunately, is accurate. I say unfortunate because you will be shelving quite a few models, and that may be tough. Believe us, its the right thing to do.
Convert what you can, proxy whatever else you can (until you can buy stuff for WYSIWYG) and shelve the rest. You may still have enough points for 1250, maybe even 1500 with proxies. Thats fine; America wasn't built in a day, and neither should your army be.
You may want to figure out what your list is going to be. Aircav, Blob foot, or Mech tend to be how guard rolls, and all of them can be good if played right. Mech and Aircav are traditionally more forgiving list-styles and will be a bit cheaper, but Blob-foot can still be good if in the right hands.
First purchase, soon as you get your paycheck/allowance/childsupport should be a Forgeworld Vulture with TL Punisher cannons. It is the bread and butter of 6th edition guard, and I've never regretted taking one.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Give the executioner a try sometime Ailaros, it's a bit of a "home run bat", but I've found it's absolutely disgusting when played to it's strengths. In a list that is packing tons of lascannons and melta for example, it just adds more AP 2 hate at range, and gives your opponent something they absolutely want to kill, since it can kill literally anything that can't fly/is AV 14. Mob of shoota boyz? Nothing but a green stain. Deepstriking termis? Nothing but a crater will remain. Parking lot of transports? It'll just tear everything within 5 inches of the target a new one. It can even hunt some types of MC's since instead of just one big shot, it's shooting 5 smaller ones (so up to 5 plasma hits, which shouldn't be hard with a MC's base). It's a surprisingly flexible tank, and if it wasn't 230pts it would be an autoinclude. As it is now, it's a strong unit, but needs to have a list specifically built with it in mind I feel.
It's similar to stormtroopers and heavy artillery in that it's designed to do a ton of damage, and quickly. Add in that it's got an easy 12" of range on infantry carried GL's/plasma in a worst case scenario (and usually further in game, since you don't want to rush your plasma up too soon) and that's it got the armor to shrug off most of the hate directed at it, and I've found it performs excellently as a fire magnet that has earned it's reputation. If we compare it to the GL's again, yes, the GL's are getting far more hits. They're also wounding on 5's and 4's on a good day. An executioner is wounding on 2's all the way up into MC territory, and is AP2. That means that while it's not doing as many pure wounds as the GL's might put out, the ones it puts out are far more likely to stick.
But that's just what I've noticed from them. They're awesome in a foot guard list though. Something like that draws all the attention the enemy has most of the time and gives my infantry the time they need to get crap done.
And when you take 3 of the things, it just gets redic-er I mean efficient!
I've been saying this for months. Like Moustaffa said, it really punishes deep strikers, hordes, and parking lots. If you protect it properly its a complete beast. As for displacing all you need is one model to be within 1 1/2" of another to completely obliterate a squad. Try prescience sometime on it. It gets pretty stupid pretty quick.
Also don't forget not gets hot on the cannon. Plasma guns absolutely hate me so the Executioner is a good way to get Plasma in my list w/o pulling charred vets out of their chimeras.
Glocknall wrote: Try prescience sometime on it. It gets pretty stupid pretty quick.
I did this when deep striking hammernators landed slap bang in of my infantry thinking they were safe because of the scatter. Racked up a lot of wounds. A lot. Kinda felt bad to see my opponents smile go to a frown when he lost his death-star after 1 round of shooting.
TheCaptain wrote: First purchase, soon as you get your paycheck/allowance/childsupport should be a Forgeworld Vulture with TL Punisher cannons. It is the bread and butter of 6th edition guard, and I've never regretted taking one.
This x1000.
I finally dusted off one of my Vultures (they're not painted well enough to show off proudly in public anymore) and dear god did 6th edition make them even more awesome. Consistent 17-19 hits out of 20 punisher cannon shots, and vector dancer making a joke out of the whole "flyers have movement problems" thing. Easy MVP of the game, and it has motivated me to build another Vulture or two.
Alright, so in a hybrid foot/mech list, how many chimeras should be run? I have two for my plasma vets (which is all I have), and was wondering if I should try to squeeze in a few more. I was thinking of running a platoon with 3 PISs with Meltas and lascannons, so I could either spread them out to provide maximum fire down range or blob them up for KP missions, and those would fight along side the plasma vets and leman russes that would be moving down field.
Happygrunt wrote: Alright, so in a hybrid foot/mech list, how many chimeras should be run? I have two for my plasma vets (which is all I have), and was wondering if I should try to squeeze in a few more. I was thinking of running a platoon with 3 PISs with Meltas and lascannons, so I could either spread them out to provide maximum fire down range or blob them up for KP missions, and those would fight along side the plasma vets and leman russes that would be moving down field.
You shouldn't have a hybrid list at all, since it gives up any hope of getting target saturation.
I also have only two chimeras. How many does it take to have enough saturation? I haven't fielded them for my guard arm in ages since I do foot and LRBT, or artillery. Lately I was thinking about turning them into inquisitorial rides for my henchmen. The only other thing I could think to do with the two of them is a trip to the freezer to get split apart and custom fitted into some kind o artillery, preferably something from FW so I can avoid having to purchase it. Any suggestions?
Happygrunt wrote: Alright, so in a hybrid foot/mech list, how many chimeras should be run? I have two for my plasma vets (which is all I have), and was wondering if I should try to squeeze in a few more. I was thinking of running a platoon with 3 PISs with Meltas and lascannons, so I could either spread them out to provide maximum fire down range or blob them up for KP missions, and those would fight along side the plasma vets and leman russes that would be moving down field.
You shouldn't have a hybrid list at all, since it gives up any hope of getting target saturation.
TheCaptain wrote:Hybrid Guard is a no-no.
So I just wasted 60+ on chimeras I can't use? Fantastic...
So I just wasted 60+ on chimeras I can't use? Fantastic...
I mean, in my foot list, I put my CCS in a Chimera for some extra protection. Chimera with Camo netting behind an Aegis keeps my warlord relatively safe.
So I just wasted 60+ on chimeras I can't use? Fantastic...
I mean, in my foot list, I put my CCS in a Chimera for some extra protection. Chimera with Camo netting behind an Aegis keeps my warlord relatively safe.
Problem is, in my normal list, those two chimeras were my only source of mobility.
The more I read about IG tactics, the more disappointed I am with my IG army.
Happygrunt wrote: So I just wasted 60+ on chimeras I can't use? Fantastic...
Pretty much. The problem with having 1-2 Chimeras in a foot list is that you mostly just give your opponent's anti-tank weapons something effective to shoot at. Instead of just inefficiently killing a single meatshield guardsman every other turn suddenly those missile launchers/autocannons/etc have a target that justifies their existence and the Chimera will be quickly destroyed. If you'd spent those 55 points on more guardsmen they would take a lot longer to kill, and do more before dying.
Problem is, in my foot list, those two chimeras were my only source of mobility.
That's good in theory, but not in practice. You don't want to move up too early with IG, and late in the game 1-2 Chimeras are going to be dead without the Medusas/other Chimeras/etc giving target saturation and ensuring that something survives. So in reality the theoretical mobility advantage disappears, and it's just a point sink.
I should probably add that I played a foot list in the loosest since of the world. Unless you count the treads on the 3-4 leman russes I ran as "feet".
Happygrunt wrote: I should probably add that I played a foot list in the loosest since of the world. Unless you count the treads on the 3-4 leman russes I ran as "feet".
Well yeah, foot-guard tends to be Foot Blobs AND Tanks.
Happygrunt wrote: I should probably add that I played a foot list in the loosest since of the world. Unless you count the treads on the 3-4 leman russes I ran as "feet".
Well yeah, foot-guard tends to be Foot Blobs AND Tanks.
Is there a good guideline for the main IG builds? I always felt that I played a hybrid list, but I guess I really wasn't.
Happygrunt wrote: I should probably add that I played a foot list in the loosest since of the world. Unless you count the treads on the 3-4 leman russes I ran as "feet".
Yeah, but the problem is there's a class of weapons that are good against Chimeras but not anything else. For example, if your opponent brought ACs or MLs those guns don't have the volume of fire to kill foot hordes effectively, and can't deal with AV 14 effectively (or at all). Against a combination of foot hordes and AV 14 the points spent on those units are pretty much wasted, and you gain a huge advantage. On the other hand, if you bring a Chimera or two those units suddenly have a good target and are worth their points, so you just lost the advantage you had by not bringing them. And since they're the only target on the table for ACs and MLs they'll probably die before doing anything useful.
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Happygrunt wrote: Is there a good guideline for the main IG builds? I always felt that I played a hybrid list, but I guess I really wasn't.
Foot: infantry platoon after infantry platoon, optionally with AV 14 tanks.
Mech: melta/plasma veterans in Chimeras/Vendettas, tanks of every kind.
Hybrid: you just bought a random pile of stuff on ebay and can't figure out what to do with it.
Flyers go in any of the three lists, since they're outside of the traditional mech vs. foot debate.
Yeah peregrine sums up the whole "foot, mech, hybrid" thing.
It's not the list in it's entirety, so much as "how are the troops treated?"
Are they all on foot? It's a foot list. I've seen foot lists that have up to ten or more armored vehicles, almost all of which are battle tanks or attack craft.
Are all the infantry in chimeras? It's a mech list. Pretty self explanatory
Is there a mix of mounted and dismounted infantry? It's a hybrid list, as it mixes the two.
You also have aircav, where a large amount of your infantry are riding in fliers, but it's a bit harder to define now that you can't do an all reserves army anymore. Nowadays an Aircav list often mimics a hybrid list, except instead of chimeras you have vets in valks/vendettas, with a platoon or two holding down your deployment zone on foot.
Happygrunt wrote: So, if I were to redo my current guard list, large infantry squads, leman russes and maybe some plasma vets all on foot would be a solid foot list?
You would need to bubblewrap your veterans with guardsmen, but sounds like a nice idea.
:EDIT:
After doing some browsing, it seems that the vanilla Russ isnt worth using. I was planning on using two in my list but am now thinking of dropping them. So I now have 300 points free for some big guns. What should I replace them with?
Also, if I can get this unit without having to convert anything, that would be grand
Happygrunt wrote:So, if I were to redo my current guard list, large infantry squads, leman russes and maybe some plasma vets all on foot would be a solid foot list?
Sure. Just make sure to give those vets either camo cloaks or carapace.
A list that started with two infantry platoons chalk full of melta and lascannons (and all officer squads likewise), along with a few grenadier las/plas vets and three russes of some sort sounds like a generally solid 1500 point list in the making to me.
I'd find the points to take a pair of plain demolishers instead. That way you get SOME redundancy, rather than a single vehicle with the biggest target in your list painted on it.
I'd find the points to take a pair of plain demolishers instead. That way you get SOME redundancy, rather than a single vehicle with the biggest target in your list painted on it.
I have to agree. I like the Executioner, but a single tank with that much firepower just means that every anti-tank unit in your opponent's list knows exactly what to kill, and even AV 14 won't protect you long enough to justify the 230+ points it cost. To make the Executioner work you need more vehicles in your list to ensure target saturation and allow at least some of them to live long enough to get the job done.
Two Demolishers is still questionable though. You have to get close to use them, and you have no other targets for your opponent's melta units. But at least you've got two targets instead of one.
Happygrunt wrote: So, if I were to redo my current guard list, large infantry squads, leman russes and maybe some plasma vets all on foot would be a solid foot list?
Plasmavets in Vendettas is a preferrable alternative. That way you don't really need Carapace Armor, and get more of an excuse to field vendettas, which are lovely.
jouso wrote: What would you suggest I should start looking wrt new purchases and list building with this stuff?
First let's see what you have:
*snip*
Thanks you and all the rest for the help.
I'm comfortable painting large numbers of infantry (I mostly play orcs and empire in fantasy, so there you are) and I've always digged the look of the forgeworld elysian and death korps, so I'll probably start with all the infantry thrown in with the 'russes and the vendetta and gradually add in more bodies (with the proper guns).
I remember having a ton of leftover bitz, so converting all the HW squads to lascannon or autocannon won't be much of an issue. Proxying is rampant in my group, so I won't have much problems playing until I build a proper sea of bodies that will make the Emperor proud.
Now, is an aegis line a must for an IG foot list? I've seen in in a lot of lists, so I guess I'll have to build that as well.
The ADL with Quad Gun is excellent, esp if you put a BS$ Vet on it to give the ACs some real punch. Interceptor is also very good against the pesky FMCs - I see them a lot at my FLGS.
Honestly, I never run plasma vets anymore, having replaced them all with meltavets. Don't get me wrong, plasma is awesome; however I spend way too much time blowing my own guys up with poor "gets hot" rolls. I just have bad luck with plasma.
I do miss some of the range of plasma, but to counter that, I have simply added an AC to the meltavets in Chimeras. I no longer constantly lose guys to gets hot rolls, and the squad comes out five points cheaper. They still kill a lot as well. I am not knocking plasmavets, I am simply pointing out that they are not the end all be all of Vet load outs. You can do well without them.
The same is true of the executioner. It is a great tank, but expensive. If you need it, then take it. But , if not, other tanks can be just as successful. With all of my melts, ACs, and Vends, I having been having great success with a pair of LRBTs and a single demolisher. It all comes down to your list and play style.
I'me still a beginner with guard and still learning.
As a tip/trick does Marbo have utility as a 'lure' for units with the Rage USR, e.g. BA Death Company?
I'm thinking of popping Marbo up as the closest enemy & using him as a 100% guaranteed 'pulling' unit to drag them either away from expensive stuff or in front of big guns.
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Marbo have a demo charge, which is a large blast Str8, AP3, so perfect marine killer, (as it is instant death, so no FnP gimmic as well)
I may have to model up a Marbo in a great coat for my Valhallans. I can just see Rambo in the snow. The Rocky 4 training montage in Russia comes to mind...
Inquisitor Jex wrote: Marbo have a demo charge, which is a large blast Str8, AP3, so perfect marine killer, (as it is instant death, so no FnP gimmic as well)
Marbos demo charge is AP2
I thought his pistol was AP2, the dmoe charge in the wargear section claims it is str8 AP3 with 6 inch range
The Demolition Charge in the summary and the wargear section is listed as AP2 in my copy of the IG codex, and in the Summary table in the main rulebook.
Daedricbob wrote: I'me still a beginner with guard and still learning.
As a tip/trick does Marbo have utility as a 'lure' for units with the Rage USR, e.g. BA Death Company?
I'm thinking of popping Marbo up as the closest enemy & using him as a 100% guaranteed 'pulling' unit to drag them either away from expensive stuff or in front of big guns.
I'm thinking of popping Marbo up as the closest enemy & using him as a 100% guaranteed 'pulling' unit to drag them either away from expensive stuff or in front of big guns.
If someone is charging towards your lines, giving them an extra (potential) 12" movement forward isn't a great idea.
Once he's used his demo charge he'll die pretty easily.
the order can be fun if you like playing infantry...You can go to ground when you get shot and then use "get back in the fight" to shoot normally next turn....
There is also cavalry, which is probably the most tactically complex unit of the game....you've got one close combat to really ruin the opponents day, and after that the cavalry is usesless...so you've got to know where to hit them and how to get there...
some of the special characters can favor different strategies...captain alraheim can allow you to outflank a whole platoon...and there is nothing like surprise lascannons on side armor haha
capatain chenkov fits the "throw bodies at the wall" strategy, though it is admittedly expensive to make an army that has a full conscript squad.
Happygrunt wrote: So, if I were to redo my current guard list, large infantry squads, leman russes and maybe some plasma vets all on foot would be a solid foot list?
You would need to bubblewrap your veterans with guardsmen, but sounds like a nice idea.
:EDIT:
After doing some browsing, it seems that the vanilla Russ isnt worth using. I was planning on using two in my list but am now thinking of dropping them. So I now have 300 points free for some big guns. What should I replace them with?
Also, if I can get this unit without having to convert anything, that would be grand
Vanilla Russ are actually pretty good haha
there isn't a lot of stuff in the game that can wipe out an entire combat squad of marines with one shot from table edge to table edge...
Now I would NOT stick sponsons on them, because with ordnance thats a waste, but otherwise they're great
Vanilla Russ are actually pretty good haha
there isn't a lot of stuff in the game that can wipe out an entire combat squad of marines with one shot from table edge to table edge...
Now I would NOT stick sponsons on them, because with ordnance thats a waste, but otherwise they're great
A lot of things can wipe out 5 marines.
Calling the LRBT 'great' is a vast over-assessment.
The CCS is great. Vendettas are great. Vultures are great.
The LRBT is "decent" at its job. Which is killing MEQ. Which other things do better.
They are made of paper. They're inaccurate and 3 of them (with lascannons) cost more than a Vendetta, so they're not even cheap! When you compare them to a Vendetta you see why they're poor, but that said, even if we didn't have access to the Vendetta, they'd still be made of paper and hit on a 4+.
compareing just about anything to a vendetta will make you think it is sad.
DE ravagers look like crap compared to vendettas, but ravagers are actually pretty good units.
Daedricbob wrote: I'me still a beginner with guard and still learning.
As a tip/trick does Marbo have utility as a 'lure' for units with the Rage USR, e.g. BA Death Company?
I'm thinking of popping Marbo up as the closest enemy & using him as a 100% guaranteed 'pulling' unit to drag them either away from expensive stuff or in front of big guns.
Read the 6th edition rulebook, Rage doesn't work like that any more. Rage has been changed to just give models an additional attack on the charge (they charge with +2 attacks rather than +1). So basically, he isn't going to do a very good job of forcing your opponents to move in a specific way, as he is just a single infantry model that they can either move around of spend a single turn shooting at with one squad to wipe out.
They are made of paper. They're inaccurate and 3 of them (with lascannons) cost more than a Vendetta, so they're not even cheap! When you compare them to a Vendetta you see why they're poor, but that said, even if we didn't have access to the Vendetta, they'd still be made of paper and hit on a 4+.
compareing just about anything to a vendetta will make you think it is sad.
DE ravagers look like crap compared to vendettas, but ravagers are actually pretty good units.
If Dark Eldar could take Ravagers and Vendettas in the same slot, Ravagers would be bad.
Problem with Sentinels, is they share a slot with Vendettas, so the comparison is inevitable and fair.
I really like the way the Valkyrie/Vendetta looks. Although I like the look of the Vulture even more. Than giant-a$$ engine really does it for me more than the two smaller engines do.
So what about artillery, I am going to get a lot of it for my Death Korps siege regiement, but I rarely see it being mentionned in here, except for the Manticore, which I can't take.
I remain a big, big Medusa fan, but I might be biased since I bought two of them from Forgeworld and am loathe to let the models go unused. Much like my Hellhound, they tend to draw a huge amount of fire, keeping the autocannons, plasmaguns, and rockets away from my Chimeras.
Thing is, FW Medusa carriage are stupidly, horribly, terribly, monstroulsy, overly, totally, completely, retardedly expensive. Compare to the Earthshaker platform, and weep for me :(
Yeah, but it looks cool. Sometimes... no matter the math, or points cost, or effectiveness, just having that bad-ass model on the table is what counts. You just have to try to work around it's shortcomings. Or, if you're like me, and you choose your entire army based on what looks good, instead of how it works together, then you lose a lot and get used to it.
I unfortunately have yet to play a game in 6th (been going on two years without rolling dice), but I'm still working on painting my guard.
In the meanwhile, I'm planning some purchases, and after reading through the new book and tactica online, it seems I'm almost forced to bring Vendettas/other flyers to be competitive.
My question is, if I want to have a truly competitive list, am I seriously gimping myself not bringing at least a pair of Vendettas? I'm not overly fond of the model, and I hate the idea of bringing them in with my all mech and/or foot list. Problem is, the only other reliable method for dealing with flyers is by bringing a bunch of Hydras, which not only limit my Heavy slots, but are also only truly effective against flyers; compared to the Vendetta which leaves my heavy slots untouched and is equally effective at dealing with flyers and ground units. It just feels like an even greater no-brainer decision to bring Vendettas than they were in 5th.
This is within the context that I want a competitive IG list without allies. I've been considering picking up the new IA book for the armoured battlegroup list, but that still doesn't solve my issues of dealing with flyers without bringing flyers.
Bobthehero wrote: So what about artillery, I am going to get a lot of it for my Death Korps siege regiement, but I rarely see it being mentionned in here, except for the Manticore, which I can't take.
Extremely overpowered. The 6th edition changes to the artillery rules are insane with the towed guns. You have to roll to wound against T7 even though you have 5+ guardsmen in front of the gun taking any wounds that get through, and since the guns are now no longer vehicle models they can shoot 360*. Effectively for 75 points you have a T7 W10 3+ MC with an earthshaker cannon. And then you put it behind an aegis line and make sure your T7 guardsmen now have a 4++.
The only "downside" is that the Medusa is now the same gun as the tank, not the special barrage version. Well, that and the fact that your opponents probably won't want to play you anymore if you bring too much artillery, at least until FW fixes the rules and/or point costs to account for how 6th made them obscenely powerful.
Blacksails wrote: My question is, if I want to have a truly competitive list, am I seriously gimping myself not bringing at least a pair of Vendettas?
Significantly so. It's not impossible to have a competitive list without them, but they're an important addition and every competitive list *should* have them by all logic and reason.
Is it okay to bring Valkyries instead of Vendettas? They seem like the same exact aircraft, but with different weapon options and I'd rather just bring the one I cna make out of the box with also having to buy FW stuff to make it look right.
Don't buy:
Ratlings
Ogryn
Psyker Battle Squads
Marbo
Grenade Launchers
Heavy Bolters
Most of the Leman Russ Variants (LRBT, Executioner, and Demolisher are really the only feasible ones.)
Medipacks
Carapace Armor
Special/Heavy Weapon Squads
Sentinels
Commissars
Everything else is a toss up, and depends on your list.
I am interested in hearing why you don't recommend buying Gernade Launchers?
Valhalla130 wrote: Is it okay to bring Valkyries instead of Vendettas? They seem like the same exact aircraft, but with different weapon options and I'd rather just bring the one I cna make out of the box with also having to buy FW stuff to make it look right.
Valkyries are a balanced, decently priced codex option.
Vendettas are insanely good for their points with incredibly powerful weaponry.
Valks are good, Vendettas are amazing. Go with the Vendetta; conversion kits aren't that much.
Valhalla130 wrote: Is it okay to bring Valkyries instead of Vendettas? They seem like the same exact aircraft, but with different weapon options and I'd rather just bring the one I cna make out of the box with also having to buy FW stuff to make it look right.
Valkyries are a balanced, decently priced codex option.
Vendettas are insanely good for their points with incredibly powerful weaponry.
Valks are good, Vendettas are amazing. Go with the Vendetta; conversion kits aren't that much.
yeah, a AV12 transport that flies without much in the way of weapons is strong but not broken for 100 points. The missile launchers arent any good, they can only get 1 lascannon, probably the best is multilaser and 2 heavy bolters. Hardly a gunship.
Vendettas would be incredibly strong with 3 REGULAR lascannons. The twinlinked moves them into the broken catagory.
That said I've never paid for a conversion kit. Plenty of random lascannons lying around from HWS boxes and pilfered from some dude at my FLGS who let me at his bits box.
Valhalla130 wrote: Is it okay to bring Valkyries instead of Vendettas? They seem like the same exact aircraft, but with different weapon options and I'd rather just bring the one I cna make out of the box with also having to buy FW stuff to make it look right.
Valkyries are a balanced, decently priced codex option.
Vendettas are insanely good for their points with incredibly powerful weaponry.
Valks are good, Vendettas are amazing. Go with the Vendetta; conversion kits aren't that much.
yeah, a AV12 transport that flies without much in the way of weapons is strong but not broken for 100 points. The missile launchers arent any good, they can only get 1 lascannon, probably the best is multilaser and 2 heavy bolters..
The multi-rocket pods are pretty good if you're short on anti-horde.
However you don't need Vendetta's immediately to counter your opponent. You could also take an ADL with an Icarus lascannon or an Quadgun. Both are pretty decent at what they do, while giving the rest of your army a 4+ cover save.
Valhalla130 wrote:So, anti-horde, Valkyrie with rocket pods, anti-vehicle, then it's Vendetta? Thanks.
No there are far better anti-horde options, I think the capt'n was saying bring the RP valks if you're running air cav. Not regular guard - they have better anti-horde (Manticores are an amazing example).
loner wrote:However you don't need Vendetta's immediately to counter your opponent. You could also take an ADL with an Icarus lascannon or an Quadgun. Both are pretty decent at what they do, while giving the rest of your army a 4+ cover save.
Sorry the Icarus or Quad do not compare to the Vendetta. They're a static gun. The Vendetta isn't just anti-air, it's probably the best anti-armor unit in the codex.
loner wrote: However you don't need Vendetta's immediately to counter your opponent. You could also take an ADL with an Icarus lascannon or an Quadgun. Both are pretty decent at what they do, while giving the rest of your army a 4+ cover save.
Until your line gets hit properly and your opponent seizes your Quadgun or Icarus lascannon. True comedy is walking a character in Terminator armor us to a Quadgun, firing it in the shooting phase, then assaulting the unit you just shot at. Even walking up and snap-firing it isn't bad thanks to the twin-linking.
Valhalla130 wrote: Is it okay to bring Valkyries instead of Vendettas? They seem like the same exact aircraft, but with different weapon options and I'd rather just bring the one I cna make out of the box with also having to buy FW stuff to make it look right.
Not really. Vendettas are awesome because, in addition to being extremely cheap transports with good firepower, they give you something no other unit in the codex offers: the combination of effective AA and anti-tank in the same unit. Valkyries are decent, but they can't shoot down other flyers.
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Ailaros wrote: There are a lot of places to get anti-tank in the guard codex.
But not while simultaneously getting AA, which is why Vendettas are so good.
(Well, technically people other than you can take Sabre guns.)
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Black_Falcon wrote: I am interested in hearing why you don't recommend buying Gernade Launchers?
Because they occupy a spot that could be used for a melta or plasma gun, while doing almost nothing.
Ailaros wrote: There are a lot of places to get anti-tank in the guard codex.
But not while simultaneously getting AA, which is why Vendettas are so good.
(Well, technically people other than you can take Sabre guns.)
Let's keep it civil guys. We can have a nice tactical discussion without snapping at each other.
And yes, the vendetta is good, but it is also cost prohibitive. Sabre guns are much easier to scratch build. Aegis lines and Hydras are not terrible choices if you can only use GW stuff for Anti-air.
Well, it all kind of depends on your attitude towards the air game. If your goal is to dominate it, then yes, not taking vendettas will be a pretty big loss to your army. If you only want to curb the worst excesses of flier spam somewhat, then an ADL with a quad gun and a few hydras will probably suit you well enough. If you're going to cede the air game so that you can dominate the ground game, then you don't need any anti-air at all.
It also depends on your meta for fliers. Ive found that at my meta most people dont run fliers or they atleast have 1. In the military now a days when the troops or armor roll out theres generally eyes in the sky or some sort of airsupport and Ive found that to be true about most games. If you have air superiority then you will have an advantage on the ground game as you will have a unit that is harder to kill. I used 2 vendettas in the beginning of 6th but since my meta is low on fliers I have cut back to using 1 or none as a quad gun has proved amazing to me especially at wounding light armor as well(my opponents hate it especially the flying daemon princes). I dont find hydras good at all, yes they are like 75pts but they dont have interceptor which means your opponent has the chance to use his flier to blow up your very fragile chimera chasis in which if so happens you lose some anti air and if your rolling with 2 then your anti air is cut in half and with only 2 shots it may not damage the flier at all.
Bobthehero wrote: So what about artillery, I am going to get a lot of it for my Death Korps siege regiement, but I rarely see it being mentionned in here, except for the Manticore, which I can't take.
Unless you exclusively play opponents who don't deepstrike or outflank, artillery are useless. Since your opponent usually uses his strongest anti-tank unit to outflank or deepstrike, he's going to target those side armour 10 open-topped vehicles who're raining pie-plate death onto your infantry.
As I say if you don't have that in your meta, artillery can be pretty useful.
Testify wrote: Unless you exclusively play opponents who don't deepstrike or outflank, artillery are useless. Since your opponent usually uses his strongest anti-tank unit to outflank or deepstrike, he's going to target those side armour 10 open-topped vehicles who're raining pie-plate death onto your infantry.
As I say if you don't have that in your meta, artillery can be pretty useful.
You're confusing the DKoK towed artillery with the usual tanks. What he's talking about are the actual artillery units, which are blobs of T7 guardsmen with earthshaker cannons, and they are MUCH more durable than any mere vehicle.
You're confusing the DKoK towed artillery with the usual tanks. What he's talking about are the actual artillery units, which are blobs of T7 guardsmen with earthshaker cannons, and they are MUCH more durable than any mere vehicle.
I guess that T7 is just for shooting, in case not that's beyond broken.
I was recently informed of a local Necron player who plays with 4 flyers. And another who uses 9. Supposedly. How would you build a list to combat that?
I was recently informed of a local Necron player who plays with 4 flyers. And another who uses 9. Supposedly. How would you build a list to combat that?
2-3 Vendettas, ADL, and a blob with Prescience.
You'll be able to go toe to toe with most lists running flyers, and even for the 9 flyer list, with some good general-ing, a win isn't impossible.
Testify wrote: Unless you exclusively play opponents who don't deepstrike or outflank, artillery are useless. Since your opponent usually uses his strongest anti-tank unit to outflank or deepstrike, he's going to target those side armour 10 open-topped vehicles who're raining pie-plate death onto your infantry.
As I say if you don't have that in your meta, artillery can be pretty useful.
You're confusing the DKoK towed artillery with the usual tanks. What he's talking about are the actual artillery units, which are blobs of T7 guardsmen with earthshaker cannons, and they are MUCH more durable than any mere vehicle.
Oh yeah. Those things are amazing in 6th edition, though personally I would be loathe to invest *too much* since that is entirely dependant on the current version of rules.
I was recently informed of a local Necron player who plays with 4 flyers. And another who uses 9. Supposedly. How would you build a list to combat that?
Vendettas
Seriously, Vendettas are the best flier in the game right now, and can easily bring down a Scythe a turn while weathering the storm. Just remember to go second so that your fliers can strike his before his can strike yours. If your opponent is going all out you can also bring an Aegis with Quad gun to level the playing field. Additionally, in the 9 flyer list unless you are playing at over 2k (in which case you will have access to a second FOC and more vendettas), he will likely only have a minimal ground presence T1, so bringing mass artillery to try to wipe his initial army off the table before his flyers can arrive, wining the game for you T1. For a while there was a list running around where the only thing the Necron player started with on the table was a Bastion with Imotehk with a Chronotek with Chronometron deployed BEHIND the bastion (to block LOS), to hold the line while the fliers arrive. It was hard countered by Guard lists with artillery who could just wipe Imotehk and the Cryptek out.
You can put more guys behind a defence line that indestructible where I belive you can only have 1 squad ontop the bastion and 1 inside and the astion can be destroyed. I think the line is a lot better.
Also so many basic troops have Krag or Frag grenades that when they get to you D6 hits per model at Str:6 Ap:4 from the krak is going to utterly destroy the unit inside the bastion.
The ADL also has great synergy with "GBITF" order whereas the bastion has nothing of the sort.
Testify wrote: Unless you exclusively play opponents who don't deepstrike or outflank, artillery are useless. Since your opponent usually uses his strongest anti-tank unit to outflank or deepstrike, he's going to target those side armour 10 open-topped vehicles who're raining pie-plate death onto your infantry.
As I say if you don't have that in your meta, artillery can be pretty useful.
You're confusing the DKoK towed artillery with the usual tanks. What he's talking about are the actual artillery units, which are blobs of T7 guardsmen with earthshaker cannons, and they are MUCH more durable than any mere vehicle.
Oh yeah. Those things are amazing in 6th edition, though personally I would be loathe to invest *too much* since that is entirely dependant on the current version of rules.
They were AV X in 5th ed, the updated rules put them at T7 W4 3+ etc
I was recently informed of a local Necron player who plays with 4 flyers. And another who uses 9. Supposedly. How would you build a list to combat that?
The Officer of the Fleet. He messes with when they come in, making it likely that they will dribble in over 3 turns. You can also make him re-roll any outflanks. Combine with the Astropath if you want your own Vendettas on quickly and you should be golden. Nothing like the ability to defeat in detail.
Valhalla130 wrote: See... I never would think of these tactics on my own. My mind just doesn't seem to work that way.
Moar gaems! It will then.
I don't like to use more than one advisor, they are quite pricey at 30pts each so I stick with the one I think will help the most. 2+ reserves are pretty cool.
Valhalla130 wrote: Sounds like the consensus is ADL then. That's awesome since it costs less.
ADL's are practically made for guard.
From Bell of Lost Souls:
Imperial Guard Rumors
This was a shocker this week, when we had some issues tracking down a rumor that Jes Goodwin might be working on some Imperial Guard. Well, tracking aside, Dave (a source from Faeit 212) sent us in this little bit to help shed some light on whether or not something is being worked on for the Imperial Guard.
a few comments ive heard this week from GW staff have been..... ''i'm getting very excited about seeing the new imperial guard units'' and ''cant wait for codex imperial gaurd to be finished''. i do know that my favourite 40k artist Jes Goodwyn has been working on imperial guard artwork and sketches for new models recently. might be a while before we see them
If something really is being worked on for the Imperial Guard, it could be for a 40k supplement next summer, or something even further out. Don't expect a codex anytime soon, as the rumored release schedule (below) looks full.
Nothing to give a ton of thought, or take as word from god (or TheCaptain), but an interesting notion.
Ive been running dual Manticores+LR EX. in my lists for some time now.
Am still seeing plently of vehicles in my area.
It's been effective for glancing vehicles to death at range. Which allows me to change up my melta vets to plasmas which i like.
Starting to think i don't need the Russ as i have plently of chimeras+plasma vets.
Triple manticores seems like over-kill, but part of your problem (in my opinion) is the LR Ex -
Is that Executioner or Exterminator? Since one is pretty beastly anti-heavy infantry, and one is pretty gak at everything. I've found vehicles are better dealt with by infantry or Vendettas, and it's a lot cheaper than Manticores. Unless you're coming across parking lots. You know those bunched up chimeras or Razorbacks.
I would also like to bring up something:
How do the other guard players here deal with Land Raiders?
It's becoming pretty common in my meta to take a LR filled with a nasty assault unit and crash it into my lines. I just can't seem to knock them out before they arrive. I've tried Lascannon spam I've tried dumping melta vets in their face I've tried suicide stormies
None of that seems to work and I've just resigned to ignoring them and taking everything else out. If I catch my opponent out I will throw a cheap squad in the way of the charge but sometimes it's too hard to ignore the unit inside (think Abaddon or WG terminators).
I've considered a Vanquisher with Pask (so many points) and PC sponsons to replace my beloved Executioner, but it's difficult to justify in 1500pt games.
Afrodactyl wrote: I usually take LRs out the usual way; Melta Vets and vendettas.
The problem is that takes too long. If the drop-troop Melta-vets are shooting at the LR the Vendetta isn't. Similarly, if the Vendetta is shooting at the LR, the Melta-vets aren't. They also come in on turn 2. So if I were to use the Vendetta on Turn 2, then drop the Melta-vets on turn 3 - well you can see my issue, it's turn 3. I'd much rather use them on two different targets, both on turn 2 to maximise my chance of neutering 2 threats rather than chipping away at the LR, since neither guarantees the kill (my luck with melta is abysmal). Am I using them wrong? Am I just unlucky? Or is there a better way to deal with it?
Edit: Should I be using more than 1 melta delivery on turn two? Throwing 2 melta-vet squads at it or two Vendettas? That's a hell of a lot of fire-power for one unit!
48'' Str 10 Ap 1 armour bane. Maybe take one squadron of two, although it could get expensive.
I don't want to pay points to lose what makes the Medusa awesome. If it could fire both Bastion Breacher and the normal shells then I'd totally consider it.
Imperial Guard Rumors
This was a shocker this week, when we had some issues tracking down a rumor that Jes Goodwin might be working on some Imperial Guard. Well, tracking aside, Dave (a source from Faeit 212) sent us in this little bit to help shed some light on whether or not something is being worked on for the Imperial Guard.
a few comments ive heard this week from GW staff have been..... ''i'm getting very excited about seeing the new imperial guard units'' and ''cant wait for codex imperial gaurd to be finished''. i do know that my favourite 40k artist Jes Goodwyn has been working on imperial guard artwork and sketches for new models recently. might be a while before we see them
If something really is being worked on for the Imperial Guard, it could be for a 40k supplement next summer, or something even further out. Don't expect a codex anytime soon, as the rumored release schedule (below) looks full.
Nothing to give a ton of thought, or take as word from god (or TheCaptain), but an interesting notion.
Pretty much a whole lot of nothing. Check the locked thread in the News and Rumors section, Cap.
Yeah triple manticores does seem to be overkill. Does a number on hordes tho.
I have alot of plasma currently in my list.
With;
CCS 3x plasma
2xPlasma vets
Executioner.
I might try just the regular LRBT. It saves me a few points also. It's great at the "hammer and anvil" deployment as it doen't care with its range
Actually dealing with 2-3 LRs aren't really a problem for me. Fought against em a few weeks ago. As i said i run 2x manticores if you centre the template over the land raider and it "flips" off it usually never misses if you hit with the first template. Also 3x vendettas hurt em as well.
Love melta vets in a vendetta, but as it has already been mentioned, your coming in turn 2 to pop em. Chances are they have already made the majority of the journey to deliver their contents.
Pyreguard wrote: As i said i run 2x manticores if you centre the template over the land raider and it "flips" off it usually never misses if you hit with the first template.
TheCaptain wrote: manticore shot or two.
I guess the answer has been given. Str:10 glances. Thanks.
Afrodactyl wrote: I usually take LRs out the usual way; Melta Vets and vendettas.
The problem is that takes too long. If the drop-troop Melta-vets are shooting at the LR the Vendetta isn't. Similarly, if the Vendetta is shooting at the LR, the Melta-vets aren't. They also come in on turn 2. So if I were to use the Vendetta on Turn 2, then drop the Melta-vets on turn 3 - well you can see my issue, it's turn 3.
I'd much rather use them on two different targets, both on turn 2 to maximise my chance of neutering 2 threats rather than chipping away at the LR, since neither guarantees the kill (my luck with melta is abysmal).
Am I using them wrong? Am I just unlucky? Or is there a better way to deal with it?
Edit: Should I be using more than 1 melta delivery on turn two? Throwing 2 melta-vet squads at it or two Vendettas? That's a hell of a lot of fire-power for one unit!
My melta vets are in chimeras, so that I have some AT about on turn 1, the vendettas are flying as empty gunboats at the moment; so I have plenty of land raider hunting stuff knocking about.
Afrodactyl wrote: I usually take LRs out the usual way; Melta Vets and vendettas.
The problem is that takes too long. If the drop-troop Melta-vets are shooting at the LR the Vendetta isn't. Similarly, if the Vendetta is shooting at the LR, the Melta-vets aren't. They also come in on turn 2. So if I were to use the Vendetta on Turn 2, then drop the Melta-vets on turn 3 - well you can see my issue, it's turn 3.
I'd much rather use them on two different targets, both on turn 2 to maximise my chance of neutering 2 threats rather than chipping away at the LR, since neither guarantees the kill (my luck with melta is abysmal).
Am I using them wrong? Am I just unlucky? Or is there a better way to deal with it?
Edit: Should I be using more than 1 melta delivery on turn two? Throwing 2 melta-vet squads at it or two Vendettas? That's a hell of a lot of fire-power for one unit!
My melta vets are in chimeras, so that I have some AT about on turn 1, the vendettas are flying as empty gunboats at the moment; so I have plenty of land raider hunting stuff knocking about.
Wasting a perfectly good transport by taking the Chimera.
Vendettas are better for meltavets in just about every situation.
Afrodactyl wrote: I usually take LRs out the usual way; Melta Vets and vendettas.
The problem is that takes too long. If the drop-troop Melta-vets are shooting at the LR the Vendetta isn't. Similarly, if the Vendetta is shooting at the LR, the Melta-vets aren't. They also come in on turn 2. So if I were to use the Vendetta on Turn 2, then drop the Melta-vets on turn 3 - well you can see my issue, it's turn 3.
I'd much rather use them on two different targets, both on turn 2 to maximise my chance of neutering 2 threats rather than chipping away at the LR, since neither guarantees the kill (my luck with melta is abysmal).
Am I using them wrong? Am I just unlucky? Or is there a better way to deal with it?
Edit: Should I be using more than 1 melta delivery on turn two? Throwing 2 melta-vet squads at it or two Vendettas? That's a hell of a lot of fire-power for one unit!
My melta vets are in chimeras, so that I have some AT about on turn 1, the vendettas are flying as empty gunboats at the moment; so I have plenty of land raider hunting stuff knocking about.
Wasting a perfectly good transport by taking the Chimera.
Vendettas are better for meltavets in just about every situation.
Except for when they get blown out of the sky.
I'd rather spend the cheap 55 points, and give my oponent 2 threats to worry about.
Not one juicy target.
Except for when they get blown out of the sky.
I'd rather spend the cheap 55 points, and give my oponent 2 threats to worry about.
Not one juicy target.
Who is reliably killing your vendettas easier than your Chimera?
The Meltachimera will always be the juicy target. Its flimsy, easy to kill, and if you pop it, the guardsmen are as good as dead walking at your tank. With a Vendetta and a Chimera, there's still only one threat. Just now its one threat (vendetta), and a free killpoint (chimera).
The Vendetta is...well, good luck killing it before the Meltavets get dropped off.
Also everyone seems to be forgetting the main problem:
How the hell does the chimera get into melta-range of well...anything before turn 2 or 3? By that point the drop troops have reliably been dropped and have shot.
Also shooting a Vendetta out the sky is rather unusual, and I'm pretty ballsy with mine, taking a lot of risks, hell it's only 130pts.
Yeah, I agree, vendettas make better gunboats than transports. Vendettas will spend some amount of time off the board, and when the guys inside grav shute out, they take dangerous terrain tests and then are open to being shot and charged in return. None of that is true for chimeras, which are like a third the price.
As for land raiders, spam lascannons harder. Like, bring one per 100 points in your list spam. That or medusas. A pair with bastion breachers stands a pretty decent chance.
alarmingrick wrote: But if you're moving your Vendetta so much, why bother? Why not just use a Valk?
You're not making the most of the 3 TL lascannons.
you grav-chute them in the turn you overfly their tanks.
Turn2: Fly at enemy armor
Turn3: Overfly it, grav-chute, fly off board
Turn4: Back on, pew pew.
Turn5-7: whatever.
alarmingrick wrote: But if you're moving your Vendetta so much, why bother? Why not just use a Valk?
You're not making the most of the 3 TL lascannons.
you grav-chute them in the turn you overfly their tanks.
Turn2: Fly at enemy armor
Turn3: Overfly it, grav-chute, fly off board
Turn4: Back on, pew pew.
Turn5-7: whatever.
Knowing how I roll, half of them (including the Special Weapons, just so the dice can spite me) would end up dying thanks to Dangerous Terrain tests. I know it's not that big a threat (need a 6, then a failed armor save) but....I've lost whole squads to it...because I suck...
But I can see it being a good strategy, more viable than it was in 5th at least. Chimeras are good if you spam them with 2 other Meltavet squads. At least one has to make it to the enemy lines hahaha
Don't forget that you still have hover mode. It sucks to be hit on normal BS, but the Vendetta was still amazing in 5th when it was just a fast skimmer, and now you have a free 5+ save on top of that 5th edition Vendetta. You can do a lot worse than arriving as a flyer and killing something, then going into hover mode to disembark your troops and make an unlimited pivot to hit side/rear armor.
Turn3: Overfly it, grav-chute, fly off board
Turn4: Back on, pew pew.
Turn5-7: whatever.
Exactly. It lets you hit two targets if you want to if you outflank or take an odd angle.
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washout77 wrote: Hmm, that's a good point. To be honest, I never really considered Hover Mode as I never had a reason to use it. Now I think I have one haha
I've noticed this a lot at my FLGS - people think I'm crazy when I go into hover mode. It's not that dangerous, there's still AV:12 and 5+ cover. People also assume Vendettas must survive until the end of the game simply because they're used to hitting them on sixes.
Ok here's something interesting, what do you guys take for your warlord tree with a ccs?
(I know it's situational what tree you roll on due to the board or the enemy)
I personally dislike the personal traits as they are mostly combat type traits.
I personally feel the command tree is great for my ccs.
1. Is great for buffing units within 12" of the ccs with ld9 guardsmen. It goes well with the 12" order range.
2. Is ok against non fearless xenos armies but I play against a lot of marines who don't care about that.
3. Move through cover within 12" is great.
4. This one is the most intresting. This grants you 2d6 run move within 12". Pair this up with "move move move " order for 4d6 runs to make sure you get to where you need to be.
5. I love this one as I run a lot of plasma in my lists rerolling 1s when an enemy is within 3" of an objective.
6. This adds one to the charge distance within 12" it's ok if you have got a huge blob counter charging anything that gets close.
What's everybody usually roll on? I haven't seen this brought up yet but I think it's interesting as some traits have won me games basically.
When I run my foot guard lists, I take a stupid amount of lascannons. Most of time, the landraider barely has enough time to say "what's that bright lig-" before it's blown to pieces (that said, I have freakishly good luck rolling explode results with my lascannons)
Normally I plan on just unloading a bunch of lascannons into it turn 1 until it ceases being a threat. Whether that means I immobilized it, wrecked it, or blew it up, doesn't matter. I keep shooting till it's no longer a threat or I run out of lascannons. However, I normally don't care what's in it turn 1, and focus my fire elsewhere. I let my stormtroopers and my melta infantry squads handle it as it gets closer and that works alright for me.
If you're really desperate to stop it though, hammering it with manticore, medusa (regular or bastion breacher), and any other high strength weapons seems like the most reliable turn 1 way to kill them. There's no way you're getting melta in range turn one, so you've simply got to hammer it into submission.
Normally I plan on just unloading a bunch of lascannons into it turn 1 until it ceases being a threat.
Do you never worry about night fighting? Or do you bring enough search lights to ignore it.
I'm running mech vets at the moment so search lights aren't an issue, it's just...I don't really have lascannons to fire on turn one. I am contemplating adding a few to the mech vets to fire out their chimeras. It's just, they get very expensive...
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Pyreguard wrote: Ok here's something interesting, what do you guys take for your warlord tree with a ccs?
Always strategic. -1 to reserve rolls is the boy (makes those piece meal armies even more manageable). Re-rolling reserve rolls is similarly awesome.
Choosing night fighting is pretty cool too, although the wording seems to infer that you can only choose to have night fighting, but are still required to roll if you don't choose to have night fighting. Can anyone clarify that?
To be honest, last time I ran into a landraider it was the only vehicle the opponent had. We rolled nightfight, and it was roughly 15 or so lascannons firing on a single landraider in the open.
The first shot blew it up.
The list I was using had no vehicles whatsoever, so literally my only option was to just fire as many shots as possible and hope one made it through the cover save.
Normally though, i would at least have a few russes, which would be able to spotlight a target if need be. To be honest, now that nightfight just gives cover, I rarely worry about illuminating a target unless its in area terrain/aegis defence line or if it's out of 36" for weapons I want to shoot at it.
I've been looking at my codex, wondering how to bump my list up to 1999+1 (to complement mech vets with 2 vendettas, and 2 basic russes) from 1500, and I have been wondering;
Are any of the leman russ variants decent in squadrons?
Afrodactyl wrote: I've been looking at my codex, wondering how to bump my list up to 1999+1 (to complement mech vets with 2 vendettas, and 2 basic russes) from 1500, and I have been wondering;
Are any of the leman russ variants decent in squadrons?
:EDIT:
That would be a squadron of 2, not 3.
The Demolisher isn't completely silly to squadron.
To take out Thunderwolves take St10 pie plates AP2 is good so Demolishers or Medusa unless they carring storm shields then take Manticores as they will be rolling 3++ saves anyways might as well get them rolling mass amounts of saves they will fail a 3+ eventually and die from Instant Death. Then just Plasma the troops to death
Well with what you can build from the vanilla russ boxes, the Eradicator and Vanquisher are right out, leaving either Exterminators or LRBTs. I'd say 2 LRBTs will be the best bet and you'll have 55pts for another chimera or some upgrades for the vets. If the wolfs are running storm shields the bolter boat Exterminators might be a better bet.
Here's what I run in my gunline list and I have found it to be VERY effective.
•CCS - Creed/Kell (really like having a 24"circle that I can spread all my infantry out in while being able to roll for a minimum of 4 orders per turn on Ld.10)
- Vox and two meltaguns
- Officer of the fleet and Astropath (I outflank a few units and coming in on a 2+ and rerolling what edge I deploy from can be very useful. The OotF has been crucial in screwing with demon players for me and imo a worthy upgrade)
- Camo Cloaks (they'll be up in a building or behind my ADL)
• Marbo (I find him to be very fun and 65 out of 2500pts really isnt much for the potential for hilarity he provides. Just my .02)
•Vets - love these guys, they're great to plop on an objective behind my aegis as they are a pain in the nuts to get off the objective with a 2+ cover save thanks to the +1 bonus of Camo Cloaks and Stealth from Harker. In addition they put out a fair amount of obnoxious, high BS (for IG) sniper, HB and Autocannon/quadgun shots which is very nice against footslogging and flying MC's when coupled with bring it down.
- Harker
- Three sniper rifles and autocannon
- camo cloaks
• Vets in chimera
- three meltas and demolitions
•PCS w/vox two flamers and heavy flamer
• Platoon of 30, blobbed
- sgt's and one commissar with power weapons
- three plasmaguns/autocannons and vox
2x • HWS with lascannons
2x • HWS with autocannons
• Banewolf or hellhound(changes depending on whether I'm playing MEQ or IGEQ) outflanking via Creed
•basilisk battery of 2 with enclosed crew compartment
•Manticire with camo netting (really does work against necron warrior blob spam as my brother has found out)
•LRBT Squad of 2 with Heavy bolter sponsors (very versatile tank when it comes to infantry/AV-12 and under vehicle killing. I'm also really starting to look at trading one of the BT's in the Squad out for an exterminator with pask, HB sponsons and a LC on the front.)
this is my version of hybrid IG which I knew I would be doing from the get-go as I find "leafblower mech vet" spam unoriginal and somewhat distasteful. Just wanted to post this in case anyone was looking for some ideas for "alternative" IG
Target priority would be cake for a player worth his salt.
This. I could point out everything wrong with the list, but I'd pretty much be quoting the entire list. There's no synergy or sense of purpose, it's just a random pile of units thrown together without any apparent thought given to how you're going to win the game.
Both of you guys points are valid but the main reason I posted my list, which has worked well for me in both friendly and competitive games, is to give newer players insight as to what can work and is worth taking in a "take on anything" list. By no means was i suggesting someone copy my entire list, as how all those units work together for my play style probably won't work for many others.
pjcoffey55 wrote: Both of you guys points are valid but the main reason I posted my list, which has worked well for me in both friendly and competitive games, is to give newer players insight as to what can work and is worth taking in a "take on anything" list. By no means was i suggesting someone copy my entire list, as how all those units work together for my play style probably won't work for many others.
Except all of your advice is bad. It's bad for new players, bad for veteran players, bad for competitive players, bad for "casual" players. And where you aren't giving bad advice you're just listing a bunch of units without giving any insight into WHY they work.
A Command Squad, armed with 4 Plasma Guns and mounted in a Chimera. For platoon command sqauds, give em flamers and wait for the enemy to get close (and they will get close).
Use 2 Chimeras to tank shock a unit into a narrow corridor, then torch em with 1 Hellhoud or 3.
A Griffon has the Accurate Bombardment special rule. Pair it with 2 Colossi to ensure those cover-ignoring, power armor cracking pie plates hit the target. Just make sure the Griffon is closet so it fires first, and the others key off of that shot, per Barrage.
Tigrinus wrote: A Griffon has the Accurate Bombardment special rule. Pair it with 2 Colossi to ensure those cover-ignoring, power armor cracking pie plates hit the target. Just make sure the Griffon is closet so it fires first, and the others key off of that shot, per Barrage.
Sigh. When will this myth finally die?
Using a Griffon to reduce scatter does not work. It gives you an automatic scatter distance of 5" which, if you have LOS like you usually will, is the equivalent of rolling an 8 on the scatter dice. This is worse than the average of 7 for a 2D6 roll, meaning on average you add 1" of scatter distance to every shot after the Griffon. And you pay 75 points for the privilege of doing it.
My guard guys tend to die a lot, I am not very good at using them as I tend to forget their armour isnt as good as my marines and then get them all killed.
Oh well, at least its very fluff like!
Wondering if I should have my melta vet squad run with Harker. After having gone up against one I have decided they can use a Vendetta though instead of a paper-armour Chimera.
Ross74H wrote: My guard guys tend to die a lot, I am not very good at using them as I tend to forget their armour isnt as good as my marines and then get them all killed.
Oh well, at least its very fluff like!
Wondering if I should have my melta vet squad run with Harker. After having gone up against one I have decided they can use a Vendetta though instead of a paper-armour Chimera.
Why would you put melta with harker, and why would you put a harkerstar in a vendetta?
I mean, this is totally rhetorical; just my way of pointing out that both are bad ideas.
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pjcoffey55 wrote: Both of you guys points are valid but the main reason I posted my list, which has worked well for me in both friendly and competitive games, is to give newer players insight as to what can work and is worth taking in a "take on anything" list. By no means was i suggesting someone copy my entire list, as how all those units work together for my play style probably won't work for many others.
Literally 0 offense intended, but that list would not stand against a competitive, cohesive list. Nor is it a good list to "advise" new players with, as it is an amateurish mishmash with no min-maxing or tactical foresight put into it.
Plus your list looks to be about a billion points, not to mention your 320pt Company Command Squad. Seven guardsmen. 320 points. Sorry, but that's unbelievably ridiculous. Two heavy flamers, and you'd be out a unit worth more than 2 landraiders.
Read some guard tactics, and look at some competitive guard lists. You have WAY too many upgrades, and way too much going on in your list.
-TheCaptain
(That's 5 edits, ladies and gentlemen. I'm not embarrassed.)
When it doesn't work. The fact is it sometimes does. Not very often, mind you, but even if it doesn't you still have a freaky powerful artillery barrage that you're lobbing at the enemy. I have seen the destruction they can cause with my own eyes.
When it doesn't work. The fact is it sometimes does. Not very often, mind you, but even if it doesn't you still have a freaky powerful artillery barrage that you're lobbing at the enemy. I have seen the destruction they can cause with my own eyes.
But you're literally lessening the accuracy of your colossi by shooting a griffon with them.
It makes zero sense. Anecdotal evidence of "I've seen it work" is worthless.
pjcoffey55 wrote: Here's what I run in my gunline list and I have found it to be VERY effective. •CCS - Creed/Kell (really like having a 24"circle that I can spread all my infantry out in while being able to roll for a minimum of 4 orders per turn on Ld.10) - Vox and two meltaguns - Officer of the fleet and Astropath (I outflank a few units and coming in on a 2+ and rerolling what edge I deploy from can be very useful. The OotF has been crucial in screwing with demon players for me and imo a worthy upgrade) - Camo Cloaks (they'll be up in a building or behind my ADL)
• Marbo (I find him to be very fun and 65 out of 2500pts really isnt much for the potential for hilarity he provides. Just my .02)
•Vets - love these guys, they're great to plop on an objective behind my aegis as they are a pain in the nuts to get off the objective with a 2+ cover save thanks to the +1 bonus of Camo Cloaks and Stealth from Harker. In addition they put out a fair amount of obnoxious, high BS (for IG) sniper, HB and Autocannon/quadgun shots which is very nice against footslogging and flying MC's when coupled with bring it down. - Harker - Three sniper rifles and autocannon - camo cloaks • Vets in chimera - three meltas and demolitions •PCS w/vox two flamers and heavy flamer • Platoon of 30, blobbed - sgt's and one commissar with power weapons - three plasmaguns/autocannons and vox 2x • HWS with lascannons 2x • HWS with autocannons
• Banewolf or hellhound(changes depending on whether I'm playing MEQ or IGEQ) outflanking via Creed
•basilisk battery of 2 with enclosed crew compartment •Manticire with camo netting (really does work against necron warrior blob spam as my brother has found out) •LRBT Squad of 2 with Heavy bolter sponsors (very versatile tank when it comes to infantry/AV-12 and under vehicle killing. I'm also really starting to look at trading one of the BT's in the Squad out for an exterminator with pask, HB sponsons and a LC on the front.)
this is my version of hybrid IG which I knew I would be doing from the get-go as I find "leafblower mech vet" spam unoriginal and somewhat distasteful. Just wanted to post this in case anyone was looking for some ideas for "alternative" IG
When it doesn't work. The fact is it sometimes does. Not very often, mind you, but even if it doesn't you still have a freaky powerful artillery barrage that you're lobbing at the enemy. I have seen the destruction they can cause with my own eyes.
But you're literally lessening the accuracy of your colossi by shooting a griffon with them.
It makes zero sense. Anecdotal evidence of "I've seen it work" is worthless.
So is it always bad to take batteries (multiple artillery pieces)? Does it waste the potential of whatever piece you fire second?
So is it always bad to take batteries (multiple artillery pieces)? Does it waste the potential of whatever piece you fire second?
It's not "bad" and the second shot isn't a guaranteed waste; its just far more likely that the second shot hits nothing at all, because of the 'flip on a scatter' rule.
well... but it also allows you to hit stuff that you missed with the ranging shot as well. Plus, if there's anything near what you're shooting at as your primary, you can still certainly hit stuff from other nearby squads.
It's not a complete waste. Plus, you still do get a second hit a third of the time, and that's two pretty serious hits when they do.
Of course, I probably wouldn't bother unless I was doing something akin to a 6 basilisk list or something.
TheLionOfTheForest wrote: So is it always bad to take batteries (multiple artillery pieces)? Does it waste the potential of whatever piece you fire second?
Taking squadrons can be ok, if you need more artillery and don't have enough FOC slots to take single models.
The bad idea in question is taking a Griffon in what would otherwise be a single-model unit on the assumption that it makes the "main" shot more accurate, when in fact it makes it LESS accurate.
I know a lot of people like to run executioners with PC sponsons, however, im slightly strapped for points. On a pair of executioners, is it worth dropping the sponsons to make the points for a pair of chimeras?
The list I have in mind I have all the models for: 3 vendettas, 2 basilisk and 2 collosi (either the same together or paired), 2 vanquisher's (one with pask the other on point. Then fill the rest of the list in with an aegis with quad gun and 2 half sized platoons wih LC and PG.
I am thinking about entering the Colonial GT here in NJ and I have been absorbing all these IG threads trying to boil down the most competative list I can with the models I own, or scratchbuilt parts for.
The basilisks are solid all around and fairly cheap as artillery goes. The collusi will negate cover saves AND power armor. The vanquisher's will be targeting enemy armor starting with the highest av/greatest threat (land raiders are troubelsome, they always seem to have 1 hp left when they arrive in m face) The guardsmen babysit the artillery. Basically I want to alpha my opponent and take the teeth out of their bite.
My main issue is mobility, as I have none. I don't really want troops in the vendettas as I want them to be gunships and I only own 2 chimeras, probably not enough to be useful at 1999+1 points.
Suggestions? Mistakes I am making ? I know this isn't the list secon (I will post a more finished list there soon). There are a lot of good ideas floating around in this thread and I want to capitalize on everyone's input.
TheLionOfTheForest wrote: The list I have in mind I have all the models for: 3 vendettas, 2 basilisk and 2 collosi (either the same together or paired), 2 vanquisher's (one with pask the other on point. Then fill the rest of the list in with an aegis with quad gun and 2 half sized platoons wih LC and PG.
I am thinking about entering the Colonial GT here in NJ and I have been absorbing all these IG threads trying to boil down the most competative list I can with the models I own, or scratchbuilt parts for.
The basilisks are solid all around and fairly cheap as artillery goes. The collusi will negate cover saves AND power armor. The vanquisher's will be targeting enemy armor starting with the highest av/greatest threat (land raiders are troubelsome, they always seem to have 1 hp left when they arrive in m face) The guardsmen babysit the artillery. Basically I want to alpha my opponent and take the teeth out of their bite.
My main issue is mobility, as I have none. I don't really want troops in the vendettas as I want them to be gunships and I only own 2 chimeras, probably not enough to be useful at 1999+1 points.
Suggestions? Mistakes I am making ? I know this isn't the list secon (I will post a more finished list there soon). There are a lot of good ideas floating around in this thread and I want to capitalize on everyone's input.
TheLionOfTheForest wrote: The list I have in mind I have all the models for: 3 vendettas, 2 basilisk and 2 collosi (either the same together or paired), 2 vanquisher's (one with pask the other on point. Then fill the rest of the list in with an aegis with quad gun and 2 half sized platoons wih LC and PG.
I am thinking about entering the Colonial GT here in NJ and I have been absorbing all these IG threads trying to boil down the most competative list I can with the models I own, or scratchbuilt parts for.
The basilisks are solid all around and fairly cheap as artillery goes. The collusi will negate cover saves AND power armor. The vanquisher's will be targeting enemy armor starting with the highest av/greatest threat (land raiders are troubelsome, they always seem to have 1 hp left when they arrive in m face) The guardsmen babysit the artillery. Basically I want to alpha my opponent and take the teeth out of their bite.
My main issue is mobility, as I have none. I don't really want troops in the vendettas as I want them to be gunships and I only own 2 chimeras, probably not enough to be useful at 1999+1 points.
Suggestions? Mistakes I am making ? I know this isn't the list secon (I will post a more finished list there soon). There are a lot of good ideas floating around in this thread and I want to capitalize on everyone's input.
Don't worry about throwing guardsmen in your vendettas and them going to "waste". Take those two PCS's you'll have. Give them each x4 flamers. That's a mere 100pts for two nasty scoring units whose main job is to chill in the vendetta till the end of the game and take an objective. Trust me, they are absolutely worth it.
Everyone seems to fret about a squad riding in a vendetta means that squad is a "waste" or it "wastes" a turn of the vendetta firing to deploy them. Both are pretty weird worries. You can always fire the vendetta and disembark the squad inside by hovering (and no, hovering does not equal instant death, 5th ed vendettas were stupid hard to kill too remember?) If you keep the squad inside cheap, and make sure its a scoring unit, as long as it torches an objective holding unit, or takes an empty one for itself, it'll more than pay for itself. That's why the fireball PCS is amazing, for a mere 50pts it just murderizes cheap scoring units left to babysit an objective.
Other than that, I'm worried you'll have a hard time keeping the artillery alive unless you give it camo netting behind the Aegis. You usually only see artillery in Armored fist and leafblower style lists, because there's just so much AV12 it makes it hard for the enemy to justify focusing them down. With nothing but infantry, vendettas, and russes, those artillery pieces would get focused down quick. I would almost say just opt for 4 normal russes instead, because then everything on the table is either a guardsman, a vendetta, or a leman russ, and I've learned from experience that that drives my opponents nuts.
And most people have a spotty experience with vanquishers. Deepstriking melta stormies can do a similar job, with a higher kill rate, and cheaper, as long as you don't mind coming in turn 2. Plus they won't get shafted by cover saves on the enemy vehicle. Just a thought for you. That, and your vendettas will tear apart most enemy armor when they come in too. We have lots of ways to kill armor at range turn 1. Don't worry, you don't need Vanquishers (and 2 of them in a squadron no less) to kill armor turn 1.
Hey all, I'm taking a crack at IG, and at first I was only going to use them as allies for my CSM or GK, but I wanted to try a full list for them after I had an idea to ally them with SM. Now, I'm terrible at making lists, and IG just straight up confused the hell out of me, but I'm trying here and, if it's bad, hopefully this list can be saved. My main idea for it was to ally SM with IG to get 2 Dreadnoughts (with MotF) dropped in via drop pod near the enemy, giving them something to go after while my LRBTs lobbed away. What got me was the troop choices. Anyway, here it is:
1750pts
HQ - CCS - 2x flamer, 2x plasma, MOO, Astropath, Chimera w/ heavy flamer & heavy bolter - 205
Troops - Vet Sq - 2x flamers, heavy flamer, forward sentries, Chimera w/ heavy flamer & heavy bolter - 185
Vet Sq - 3x melta, Chimera w/ heavy flamer & heavy bolter - 155
Heavy - 2x LRBT - 300
2x LRBT - 300 (this should be correct if I read the rules right, as each pair is in a squadron)
Allies - SMHQ - MotF w/ conversion beamer - 125
Heavy - Dreadnought w/ heavy flamer, dccw, drop pod - 150
This left me with 120 pts. To round it out, I added 3 Scout Sentinels with autocannons, although I'm pretty shaky about that with their armor and being open topped.
Any help with this is appreciated. I'd really like to stick with the heavy hitters in the back while the dreadnoughts keep the enemy busy, but if that's not viable, so be it.
Some quick tips. Never mix special weapons in squads, heavy flamers on infantry squads are a terrible buy, and usually you want multilaser turrets on chimeras.
You should also try to avoid squadrons whenever possible. They tend to lead to overkill and prevent you from splitting fire.
1) Too few troops at 1750. You have two squads of ten T3/no save guardsmen, and a five-man scout squad. A decent opponent is just going to wipe out your troops and deny you the ability to claim objectives for an easy win. A mech vet list needs at least 3-4 veteran squads at that point level.
2) You need Vendettas. Vendettas are one of the best units in the game, and fill a vital role in the IG army since they provide awesome AA and solid anti-tank as well as delivering a unit. At least one Vendetta is mandatory in every IG list.
3) The allies are doing almost nothing for you. All you get is the dreads and a bad scoring unit, which is worse than spending those points on more Vendettas and veteran squads. If you're going to take marine allies they should be either DA Deathwing (tough scoring unit, counter-assault threat, and still has the CML) or SW with 1-2 rune priest (best psychic defense and divination).
Never mix weapon types. Either 4x plasma or 4x melta for a special weapon carrier CCS (the flamers, if you really want them, should go on a BS 3 unit since you're just wasting BS 4 on a CCS).
The Chimera should be multilaser turret, hull heavy flamer or heavy bolter. The turret HB is a weak choice, AP 4 doesn't matter very much, while the multilaser's STR 6 wounds almost all infantry on a 2+ and is a legitimate anti-vehicle threat. This also applies to all of your other Chimeras.
Ditch the advisors. The MoO is worthless on a unit that needs to move all the time to get the special weapons in range, while the astropath adds nothing to a list that has no outflanking units or reserves.
Troops - Vet Sq - 2x flamers, heavy flamer, forward sentries, Chimera w/ heavy flamer & heavy bolter - 185
Never take heavy flamers on infantry, 20 points is way too much when you get them for free on every vehicle.
Don't take regular flamers either, it wastes BS 4. Veterans get 3x melta or 3x plasma.
Don't take forward sentries, the camo cloaks are almost worthless on a unit that has to move up to point blank range to use its flamers, since it's hard to stay in cover at that range.
Heavy - 2x LRBT - 300
2x LRBT - 300 (this should be correct if I read the rules right, as each pair is in a squadron)
You're correct about the rules, but there's no need to squadron two of them. You have three slots, so if you want four total you take two independent LRBTs and one squadron of two.
However, 4x LRBT is probably a bad idea. There's a limit to how many good LRBT targets you'll have, so you want to bring 1-2 LRBT and spend the rest of your slots on some of the other options. Or drop them entirely. For example, taking 3x Medusas (one per slot) gives you better shooting overall (at the cost of durability) and frees up enough points for a Vendetta.
Allies - SMHQ - MotF w/ conversion beamer - 125
Pointless. Your dreads are worse than IG units, so wasting an expensive HQ to take them is a bad idea.
Heavy - Dreadnought w/ heavy flamer, dccw, drop pod - 150
Not worth it. HF/DCCW is a terrible setup, if you really want dreads at all they need to be 2x TLAC. Or Contemptor Mortis dreads with 2x Kheres assault cannons.
This left me with 120 pts. To round it out, I added 3 Scout Sentinels with autocannons, although I'm pretty shaky about that with their armor and being open topped.
Remove 10 points and bring a Vendetta. Scout Sentinels are garbage, they're worse than a Vendetta in every way.
Thanks a ton, that really helps out. Looking back on it, I can see I was trying to shoehorn those dreads in. Oh well, time to try something new. With the info you guys gave me, I can better understand how to use some of the units.
If you run SM as the main and put some Ironclad dreads with Melta gun and Heavy Flamers in Drop Pods and run a platoon with some extra toys as the Allies it could work well send in tge dreads as the first wave and reguardless of your against a foot horde or mech list they can pull off a good Alpha Strike and if someone wants to Assault them Krak Grenades can't hurt them that will tie up your oponent for a bit while everything in your corner shoots like mad. In your second wave you can drop in the scoring units and flyers to finish them off.
Sinji wrote: If you run SM as the main and put some Ironclad dreads with Melta gun and Heavy Flamers in Drop Pods and run a platoon with some extra toys as the Allies it could work well send in tge dreads as the first wave and reguardless of your against a foot horde or mech list they can pull off a good Alpha Strike and if someone wants to Assault them Krak Grenades can't hurt them that will tie up your oponent for a bit while everything in your corner shoots like mad. In your second wave you can drop in the scoring units and flyers to finish them off.
In a situation like this, there's literally no point to even bring guard.
You just basically gave him advice on running a SM list, and said "Oh yeah, and bring some guard too"
Cruz wrote: Thanks a ton, that really helps out. Looking back on it, I can see I was trying to shoehorn those dreads in. Oh well, time to try something new. With the info you guys gave me, I can better understand how to use some of the units.
Well, dreads are AV 12 right? Those might actually fit into a mech guard list if you can find a way to spam them. Since guard would provide your scoring units, if you've got a way to spam dreads in most other slots that might be a fun list.
Never used a space marine dex though, so bear with me there.
As for your other questions, many were covered earlier in the thread. Read back a few pages and you'll learn all kinds of helpful tips about how to play IG.
2) You need Vendettas. Vendettas are one of the best units in the game, and fill a vital role in the IG army since they provide awesome AA and solid anti-tank as well as delivering a unit. At least one Vendetta is mandatory in every IG list.
Quick question on that, seeing as I am trying to make my IG better, and found that I really enjoy mech.
Would a 1500-1850 list be okay with one vendetta? I am running a mostly mechanized list now and am trying to fix my guard army on a budget. I have one converted and was thinking of adding it to my list. Could I put melta vets with demolitions in it or should I leave it empty?
Yeah, a guard army needs vendettas like it needs medusas - they have their uses, but they're not required.
Also, you've got to put your whole platoon into reserves if you're going to put the PCS into a vendetta. If you want cheap, flamer-based scoring units, take vets instead.
And I wouldn't bother with one vendetta. In fact, at 1850 points having even as few as three of something starts feeling a little thin.
Happygrunt wrote: Would a 1500-1850 list be okay with one vendetta? I am running a mostly mechanized list now and am trying to fix my guard army on a budget.
One is better than none, but you probably want 2-3 when you're playing at a point level where you can afford them. One will obviously be good against vehicles and provide decent AA against the people who bring a random flyer or two, but against lists that bring more flyers (or where you really need to kill the flyers asap) a single Vendetta is going to fall short.
Could I put melta vets with demolitions in it or should I leave it empty?
I wouldn't use melta vets since melta is an early-game weapon and Vendetta troops take a while to arrive. Instead I'd go with plasma vets since they're great mid/late-game when you've shot up the transports and need to finish off the disembarked squads. And I'd question demolitions, the demo charge is nice if you can get into range to use it, but you'll rarely, if ever, get to use the melta bombs with a Vendetta squad.
Also, you've got to put your whole platoon into reserves if you're going to put the PCS into a vendetta.
Not quite true. This is only the case "in missions that limit the number of units that can be deployed." None of the standard 6th ed. missions have this rule, so it is irrelevant.
And I wouldn't bother with one vendetta. In fact, at 1850 points having even as few as three of something starts feeling a little thin.
Two vendettas is plenty at 1850; any more is a bit much.
My foot list totes two Vendettas and a PunisherVulture. Lot to handle for the opponent.
good haha
