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I always put plasma cannons on my executioners. They're just way too much extra firepower to ignore. Plus, you only have a 1/4 chance of losing a hullpoint per turn if you fire both the sponsons, so it's a very worthwhile risk in my opinion, since most things kill it outright with explode results.

As for the whole displacement thing, you would think that, until you remember all the things that deepstrike, get bunched up due to terrain, pile out of a wrecked/exploded vehicle, poor consolidate moves from close combat, etc. I've been finding that more often than not, you can find a worthwhile target for them. The only situations where the enemy was truly able to maximize his spread to shaft the cannons was either when I had already lost, or I had killed so much of his army that he had plenty of room to spread out his few surviving models. Plus against armies like foot IG, nids, and green tide orks, the sheer amount of models, terrain, and other factors often prevents you from maximizing proper spread, so it usually works out ok there as well.

Either way, it's the equivalent of an AV14 middle finger of death that you're pointing at your opponent. I love taking that variant and at this point am just trying to think of a list that maximizes it's potential. That said and done though, it's kind of in a similar situation as the punisher. It's awesome and hits like a train when used correctly, but it's a whole lotta awesome for a whole lotta points. It's not like a LRBT where you can just chuck it in a list and expect it to fill in all the gaps.

Quick question; Do I actually get the components for a plasma sponson executioner in the russ kit?

 Afrodactyl wrote:
Quick question; Do I actually get the components for a plasma sponson executioner in the russ kit?

In the demolisher kit you do, not the basic russ kit.

I think I need more troops. I only have:

62 regular Valhallan troops
19 regular beret Stormtrooper troops (which may as well just count as regular IG.)

On top of that, for the Valhallans, I have:

6 lascannon teams
6 mortars
5 HB
5 AC
5 ML
8 Flamers
8 GL's
6 meltaguns

and for the beret troopers, I have:

3 AC
2 HB
2 plasma guns
3 melta guns

Vehicle-wise, I have:

1 Griffon
1 Basilisk
5 Chimera
1 Demolisher
4 Leman Russ (2 w/ HB sponsons, 2 w/o)
1 Manticore
5 Sentinels (1 w/ Lascannon, 1 heavy flamer, 3 w/ multilaser)

I'm not sure I could field a good 2000 point list from that. Maybe I should set my sights lower and try for 1000 or even 1500 right now. There needs to be some adjustment to those quantities.

Any suggestions? I would like to get a Valkyrie/Vendetta to accompany them and either another couple of Griffons or a Basilisk.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I would like to get 20 of the newer stormtroopers to go with them, which is why I said I may as well count the beret troopers as regular IG.

And since I'm listing them, I might as well show the sea of white primer... heh...

If that's not enough to field a halfway decent list, then I dont want to live on this planet anymore.

I'm roughly at the same spot as you, just more infantry and no ordnace batteries (I've got something like 7 russes though. Just picked up a FW executioner for 25 bucks the other day )

I'd say you could easily field a strong hybrid list, using the chimeras for mechvets along with some russes/artillery protected by a platoon. Not exactly NOVA material, but it would be a solid enough list to hold its own in a typical pick up game. A 1,500 to 1,000 pt game you would definitely have everything you could want to succeed, except for the obvious lack of plasma of course.

You could run them as mech vets with a crapton of russes. Focus on winning the ground war if your opponent brings lots of flyers

I could put together two platoons with Ac's in the command squad and 3 ICs each with lascannons. Then run the manticore and some Russ'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alas, I'll probably never field the Ogryns again, especially as those models are really showing their age. The Rough Riders look better, but won't likely be used either. I've never used them. At the least the ogryns had a few turns at bat.

My Rough Riders were modeled after the 3rd ed codex came out, that's why they don't have lances. They're all holding chain swords or laspistols. If I ever used them, I would count them as having lances under the current set of rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is there any point giving extras to Chimeras, like stormbolters or extra armor?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

As for the whole displacement thing, you would think that, until you remember all the things that deepstrike,

This is why in my local meta, the Executioner is king. The sheer number of BA players, demons and C:SM/CSM with DS terminators just makes the executioner stand out in my list. Everyone hates it and it requires a very careful bubble-wrap due to it being a massively high target priority, but 5 blasts on a deep striking squad? They're gone.

 Valhalla130 wrote:
I think I need more troops. I only have:

62 regular Valhallan troops
19 regular beret Stormtrooper troops (which may as well just count as regular IG.)

On top of that, for the Valhallans, I have:

6 lascannon teams
6 mortars
5 HB
5 AC
5 ML
8 Flamers
8 GL's
6 meltaguns

and for the beret troopers, I have:

3 AC
2 HB
2 plasma guns
3 melta guns

Vehicle-wise, I have:

1 Griffon
1 Basilisk
5 Chimera
1 Demolisher
4 Leman Russ (2 w/ HB sponsons, 2 w/o)
1 Manticore
5 Sentinels (1 w/ Lascannon, 1 heavy flamer, 3 w/ multilaser)

Ya need plasma guns and flyers, guy.

And Sabre Defense Platforms.

Well, unfortunately, the Valhallans weren't modeled with plasma guns. I could find some more old beret Stormtroopers on ebay, I guess. Or finally learn how to convert a Valhallan plasmagunner.

 Valhalla130 wrote:
Well, unfortunately, the Valhallans weren't modeled with plasma guns. I could find some more old beret Stormtroopers on ebay, I guess. Or finally learn how to convert a Valhallan plasmagunner.

2 Easy options:

1. Just make a plasma squad out of a different style of guardsman model. Explain them as another regiment's specialists seconded to your army to fill losses/compensate for your regiment's lack of owning any plasmaguns in their armory.

2. Model up your plasma squads in Cadian plastics, then greenstuff parka hoods, and other little wintery stuff. Explain them off as your regiments specialists in different armor more suited to their role. I use Cadians in my Elysian army for my squad of plasmavets. "Combat Engineers".

Griddlelol wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:As for the whole displacement thing, you would think that, until you remember all the things that deepstrike,

This is why in my local meta, the Executioner is king.

And which is why, at my local meta, executioners are worthless. Basically there are two things they will come up against.

1.) displaced infantry.

2.) deepstriking units that will kill the executioner in one shot when they land.

Even the exceptions to this are very circumventable. You can bubble wrap tanks, for example, but not against long-range anti-tank. The exterminator more than any other russ is dependent on your opponent making things easy for you. If your opponent is making things easy for small blast weapons for you, then you'd be much better off spamming grenade launcher SWSs.

Valhalla130 wrote:Well, unfortunately, the Valhallans weren't modeled with plasma guns.

Fortunately, they were modeled with worthless grenade launchers, and in a pose that will be easy to convert. Just get yourself a rotary tool (or borrow one like I do), and it will be pretty easy to remove and replace with a nice plastic plasma gun.

Should be a pretty easy conversion, actually.

 Ailaros wrote:

Griddlelol wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:As for the whole displacement thing, you would think that, until you remember all the things that deepstrike,

This is why in my local meta, the Executioner is king.

And which is why, at my local meta, executioners are worthless. Basically there are two things they will come up against.

1.) displaced infantry.

2.) deepstriking units that will kill the executioner in one shot when they land.

Oh I understand, when I make a TAC list for tournaments I leave the Executioner at home, despite my urge to bring it from its stellar performances at my FLGS.

But... those grenade launcheres look cool. And one day, the rules will change, and they may be good again.

Seriously, though, I'll probably chop them puppies up and convert them.

I've actually seen it done before with praetorians as well.

Metal is a HUGE pain in the ass to work with, but given that this is a relatively easy conversion, if you've got the right tools, it shouldn't be too bad to make a half dozen of them.

 Ailaros wrote:
1.) displaced infantry.

Do people in your area never use transports? Because that's where the executioner is best, blow the transport up with another unit, drop mass plasma and wipe the squad out before it can spread out to avoid the templates.

If the vehicle is wrecked, the unit inside gets to disembark, making displacement easy, and if the vehicle explodes, the guys inside can go to ground to get a generous cover save.

In any case, people around my place MSU transport spam. Scoring squads that comprise of 3x henchmen in a rhino, for example. Small blast weapons are killed off in the list building phase, much less on the table.

Plus, to reiterate, if you're able to get a lot of hits with small blasts, then it's time to spam grenade lauchers as they can put out a LOT more blasts for much cheaper.

 Ailaros wrote:
If the vehicle is wrecked, the unit inside gets to disembark, making displacement easy, and if the vehicle explodes, the guys inside can go to ground to get a generous cover save.

If you're wrecked, you have to disembark entirely within 3" of an access point. Wreck a Chimera and the only way to place a 10-man squad is to blob them up in base contact. Wreck a Rhino with more than a 5-man squad and they might be able to use the side access points to spread out a bit, but still won't be at maximum 2" coherency.

If you explode, you have to disembark into the footprint of the model. Even 5-man squads don't have room to spread out very much, and 10-man squads are going to be packed in with no space between them. Sure, you can go to ground for 3+ cover, but only at the cost of doing anything useful next turn. You're still going to take casualties, and since you can't move you're going to be right back where you started for my next shooting phase: packed into perfect template formation, and forced to either go to ground and be useless or hope to survive with just a 5+.

In any case, people around my place MSU transport spam. Scoring squads that comprise of 3x henchmen in a rhino, for example. Small blast weapons are killed off in the list building phase, much less on the table.

If you're facing 3x henchmen squads why are you even considering plasma weapons at all? Of course in that limited scenario you don't take an executioner, but you also don't take any other Leman Russ.

Plus, to reiterate, if you're able to get a lot of hits with small blasts, then it's time to spam grenade lauchers as they can put out a LOT more blasts for much cheaper.

Much cheaper, but STR 3 vs. STR 7, AP - vs. AP 2, garbage if they only hit one model per blast vs. still lethal if it only hits one model per blast, worthless against vehicles vs. decent against vehicles, on fragile infantry vs. on AV 14. If all you care about is blast template count, sure, take the GLs. If you want the most effective weapon, don't.

What about the other Leman Russ, the one with the ?? Canon, the one that ignores cover? short range, but still str8AP3

(at work- no codex)

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
What about the other Leman Russ, the one with the ?? Canon, the one that ignores cover? short range, but still str8AP3

(at work- no codex)

Strength 6, AP4 36" range.

Not viable unless you're cityfighting other guardsmen.

not to try the drag the thread backwards (I've been out of the look for a few days and left my rulebook out in the car, and its snowing) But what is the point in the dual plasma pistols, I might have missed it it but cant a infantry model only shoot one weapon per shooting phase?

As for the idea that the LR Executioner is weak because it sometimes only hits one model per template, is it really? Let's compare it to a 4x plasma CCS, the most efficient way of getting plasma guns. We'll assume that the CCS shoots normally from outside 24" (a reasonable average of shooting twice as much inside 12", but not at all between 24-36"), while the Executioner always hits exactly one model per shot (a conservative average). Conveniently a 4x plasma CCS for 110 points gets almost as many hits as the 190 point Executioner. To bring it up to an even 3 plasma hits we need to add another 0.5 plasma gun, or 12.5% of the unit. Total cost: 125 points for the Executioner-equivalent CCS.

So, is it worth it? For 65 points you get AV 14, a hull gun with the option to upgrade it to a cheaper than normal lascannon, no more "gets hot", and the option to take two more plasma cannons. You do lose orders, but we're assuming a plasma delivery CCS, which may or may not ever be in a position to issue an order. Overall I think it's a pretty reasonable trade, 65 points is a lot, but over an entire game the Executioner is likely to do more damage as the fragile CCS takes casualties (often to its own guns).

And the best part? This is a conservative guess. As soon as the Executioner starts hitting more than one model per shot the numbers swing decisively in its favor.

6th Edition introduced the "Gunfighter" rule. A model armed with 2 pistols can fire both of them as a shooting attack. It has given new life to Seraphrim, and given IG Veteran Sergeants, Commissars, and officers a whole new way to kill themselves.

It also makes for some truly heinous Blood Angel Honour Guard squads.

Ir0njack wrote:
not to try the drag the thread backwards (I've been out of the look for a few days and left my rulebook out in the car, and its snowing) But what is the point in the dual plasma pistols, I might have missed it it but cant a infantry model only shoot one weapon per shooting phase?

You missed it. In 6th you can fire two pistols.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
If that's not enough to field a halfway decent list, then I dont want to live on this planet anymore.

I think it's more of a... "there are never enough guardsmen!" attitude.

Peregrine wrote:If you're wrecked, you have to disembark entirely within 3" of an access point.

Plenty of space, and the guys that stay in the vehicle get cover.

Peregrine wrote:If you're facing 3x henchmen squads why are you even considering plasma weapons at all? Of course in that limited scenario you don't take an executioner, but you also don't take any other Leman Russ.

It's not limited, though. It's also 5x squads in razorbacks, vet squads in vendettas, min-sized warrior and immortal squads in arks and fliers, and more. There are plenty of ways to do MSU transport spam. Against none of these will an executioner be all that great. And since they're not good against hordes, we're talking about the narrow range of exterminators being GOOD, not bad.

Peregrine wrote:

Plus, to reiterate, if you're able to get a lot of hits with small blasts, then it's time to spam grenade lauchers as they can put out a LOT more blasts for much cheaper.

If all you care about is blast template count, sure, take the GLs. If you want the most effective weapon, don't.

For the price of a las/plas executioner, you can get 5 grenade launcher SWSs.

Let's be generous to the small blast, and say that you get 9 hits apiece when you hit, which will happen about half the time. In this case, the executioner will get about 22.5 hits, with an extra half a hit for the lascannon. Meanwhile, the grenade launchers get 67.5 hits. Or, put another way, three times as many hits. Yes, the grenade launchers are less likely to wound, and allow armor saves (but if we want to be realistic, we have to introduce cover as well to tamp down on the plasma deaths), but you're still putting out a lot of damage with the grenade launchers. If we're talking about killing marines, the executioner is only slightly beating the grenade launchers, and that's before we consider the 15 lasguns, the fact that the infantry can take orders, and that they can score, and that they're much better against light vehicles and infinitely better against fliers.

If you're in a meta where your opponents like to take 10-man terminator squads, place all the models in base to base contact, and march them out in the open, then fine, take exterminators. Grenade launchers are still better against most opponents thus cursed with stupidity. Against players who know what cover means, and knows what displacement means, then good luck doing very much.

 Peregrine wrote:

If you're wrecked, you have to disembark entirely within 3" of an access point. Wreck a Chimera and the only way to place a 10-man squad is to blob them up in base contact. Wreck a Rhino with more than a 5-man squad and they might be able to use the side access points to spread out a bit, but still won't be at maximum 2" coherency.

I find that when transports are wrecked, my opponent will rather clump up out of LoS of my bigger guns, maybe letting a few stragglers show their face. Of course this can't happen every time.
Relying on the scatter to catch more of the out of LoS infantry causes more problems due to the whole "you need LoS to allocate wounds" argument, which frankly I can't be bothered to argue against during a game because it seems so asinine and isn't worth the break in immersion.

 Ailaros wrote:
Plenty of space, and the guys that stay in the vehicle get cover.

You only get to stay in the vehicle's footprint if the vehicle is exploded, if it's just wrecked you have to disembark entirely within 3" of an access point before the vehicle is removed. And if the vehicle explodes you have to stay entirely in the footprint of the vehicle, you don't get that 3" disembark range. Either way it's a great way to have your squad nice and densely packed.

If we're talking about killing marines, the executioner is only slightly beating the grenade launchers, and that's before we consider the 15 lasguns, the fact that the infantry can take orders, and that they can score, and that they're much better against light vehicles and infinitely better against fliers.

And we're also ignoring three other very important facts:

1) The Executioner is AV 14, while the SWS are small squads of T3/no-save infantry. In terms of single-shot firepower they might come close, but even basic bolters are going to massacre the SWS and quickly cut their firepower, while the Executioner is impossible to stop by anything short of anti-tank weapons, and even those have trouble killing it.

2) Remember that thing about firepower concentration that you like to bring up? You know, how LCs are better than ACs because you pack more shots into a single efficient package and can concentrate it better? Well, Executioners are LCs and SWS are ACs.

3) SWS are 0-2 in a platoon, so you need to buy at least three infantry platoons before you can even consider the SWS. If you weren't already buying those units then the cost of the grenade launchers goes up considerably.

Against players who know what cover means, and knows what displacement means, then good luck doing very much.

And, as I've said before:

1) You can't always displace. Came in by deep strike? The Executioner executes. Just lost your transport? Well, you also lost your life. Etc.

2) Displacing often means giving up cover now that saves are per-model instead of per-unit. Staying at maximum coherency might hurt the Executioner's firepower, but it often also means that some of your models can't fit behind cover and are exposed to the plasma veteran squad sitting next to the Executioner.

3) Even if you only hit one model per shot the Executioner still compares pretty well to plasma CCS/veterans, the most efficient plasma gun carriers you can get. It's somewhat more expensive per shot, but AV 14 probably gives you more shots over an entire game.

Hi fellas.

After a long break from 40k playing just fantasy and FOW, I got the bug again and bought the new box and will be trading one of my fantasy armies for the IG army I sold to a friend back in 4th (which has also grown a bit since I left):

Roughly I'm looking at about 80-90 infantry, roughly half-half between Catachan and Cadia (some converted to penal and some to veterans with plasmas), a ratling and karskin squad and two command squads. Several heavy weapons teams, etc.

As per vehicles, I'm looking at 3 sentinels, 3 Leman Russes, 1 Valkyrie and 1 each of chimera, basilisk and hellhound.

I've always liked the idea of IG as a footslogging army, but everyone at my club seems to play with lots of armour and flyers nowadays.

We generally play just short of 2.000pt (1.850 to 1999).

What would you suggest I should start looking wrt new purchases and list building with this stuff?

Thanks!

jouso wrote:
What would you suggest I should start looking wrt new purchases and list building with this stuff?

First let's see what you have:

Useful:
Any infantry with LCs, ACs, melta, plasma, and maybe flamers, since any list you can imagine will use them.
Kasrkin (stormtroopers).
Leman Russes (ideally with magnetized weapons).
Vendetta (turn your Valkyrie into one).
Basilisk.

Maybe useful:
Chimera (awesome, but to be useful you need several).
Hellhound (good in its narrow role, but do you need that role?).

Throw in the garbage:
Any infantry with mortars, HBs, MLs, GLs.
Ratlings.
Sentinels.


So, looking at this, your biggest problem is that you have a random mix of units without any unifying theme. Here's what you need to do:

1) Get rid of the bad units and don't try to use them. You're better off playing a smaller game than using the garbage units to try to maximize your points. You will be tempted because your collection is probably too small to make a focused and efficient 1850-2000 point list, but large enough to reach 2000 points if you throw in every possible unit and upgrade you can bring. Instead, stick to your plan and tell your friends you're not going to go that high until you're ready and they're going to need to bring smaller armies if they want to play you.

2) Decide if you want to do foot or mech. Each is valid, and making a compelling argument for either would take way too long to write out. Read a bunch of threads in this forum on the topic, and see which one sounds more fun. But make a choice, you're not going to have any luck if you try to mix the two with the random pile of stuff you've got now.

3) Spam whatever one you picked. If it's foot, buy more squads and arm them properly. If it's mech, buy lots of Chimeras and Vendettas. If you like Hellhounds, bring three of them. If you don't, get rid of the single one you have. Etc. Pretty much you want to pick the best unit in each FOC slot and fill your slots with it.