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Give the executioner a try sometime Ailaros, it's a bit of a "home run bat", but I've found it's absolutely disgusting when played to it's strengths. In a list that is packing tons of lascannons and melta for example, it just adds more AP 2 hate at range, and gives your opponent something they absolutely want to kill, since it can kill literally anything that can't fly/is AV 14. Mob of shoota boyz? Nothing but a green stain. Deepstriking termis? Nothing but a crater will remain. Parking lot of transports? It'll just tear everything within 5 inches of the target a new one. It can even hunt some types of MC's since instead of just one big shot, it's shooting 5 smaller ones (so up to 5 plasma hits, which shouldn't be hard with a MC's base). It's a surprisingly flexible tank, and if it wasn't 230pts it would be an autoinclude. As it is now, it's a strong unit, but needs to have a list specifically built with it in mind I feel.

It's similar to stormtroopers and heavy artillery in that it's designed to do a ton of damage, and quickly. Add in that it's got an easy 12" of range on infantry carried GL's/plasma in a worst case scenario (and usually further in game, since you don't want to rush your plasma up too soon) and that's it got the armor to shrug off most of the hate directed at it, and I've found it performs excellently as a fire magnet that has earned it's reputation. If we compare it to the GL's again, yes, the GL's are getting far more hits. They're also wounding on 5's and 4's on a good day. An executioner is wounding on 2's all the way up into MC territory, and is AP2. That means that while it's not doing as many pure wounds as the GL's might put out, the ones it puts out are far more likely to stick.

But that's just what I've noticed from them. They're awesome in a foot guard list though. Something like that draws all the attention the enemy has most of the time and gives my infantry the time they need to get crap done.

And when you take 3 of the things, it just gets redic-er I mean efficient!

I am going to be trying out my LR Punisher (with scratch-built turret) tomorrow for the first time against some flamer spam (here is the proposed list http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/494140.page)

This is the 3rd or 4th try against this Daemon army and I keep getting tabled...putting some serious thought into this next go.

You know it's weird. I go to different sites and I see people espousing different things. I come here and sentinels are bad and stormtroopers are good. I go somewhere else and sentinels are good and stormtroopers are bad.

I can understand mortars and possibly missile launchers, maybe even HB's. Unless you reliably face horde armies, they don't accomplish much. But sentinels? Why are they bad?

And just for the record, I think and IG versus IG cityfight would be the pinnacle of awesome!

Im going to be running an executioner in my 1999 list, to draw fire away from my transports and russes

 Valhalla130 wrote:
But sentinels? Why are they bad?

They are made of paper. They're inaccurate and 3 of them (with lascannons) cost more than a Vendetta, so they're not even cheap! When you compare them to a Vendetta you see why they're poor, but that said, even if we didn't have access to the Vendetta, they'd still be made of paper and hit on a 4+.

I remember before there even was a Vendetta, and we had to walk uphill to the battle, BOTH WAYS!!!! and we loved out sentinels that were made of paper, because gosh-darn-it everything else in the IG codex was made of paper too. Except our tanks, Emperor bless 'em.

Still... they had their uses. Is it just that we've gotten access to better options, or... what? I would still run mine with multi-lasers and not lascannons, too.

 Valhalla130 wrote:

Still... they had their uses. Is it just that we've gotten access to better options, or... what? I would still run mine with multi-lasers and not lascannons, too.

Think about what uses they have, then think about how they try to accomplish those tasks. Also consider other options (especially when using multilasers the chimera springs to mind).

- Outflanking lascannons: this can be provided by melta suicide stormies or vendettas. Both are more accurate.
- Outflanking lower str weapons: as above basically

Also take into account that now ordnance has gotten better, especially indirect which now hits side armor no matter what, the out-flanking use for them has pretty much become redundant.

- Tying up HS or troops in CC in the back field

With glances (and only 2 HP) they can't do this anymore. If they get into assault with marines they might last a round. Glances also highlight how they're made of paper, bolters can kill them. In fact bolters can easily kill them. If the unit can't hurt them, they can choose to fall back too.

They can't get cover either, it's pretty hard to get that 25% when they're such an odd shape.

I can't think of any of the old uses, I'm sure someone else might be able to fill you in better than I.

Edit: Did I mention they're made of paper? They are.

Those are all good reasons. Just syaing they're made of paper or aren't good isn't enough for me to not use something. But those clue me in pretty nicely. Thanks.

As previously mentioned, they are also relatively expensive for what they do. The only somewhat decent reason for using them is a cheap searchlight that gets upfield fairly quickly, and even then, chimeras atill beat them at it.

jouso wrote:

What would you suggest I should start looking wrt new purchases and list building with this stuff?

Thanks!

Peregrine's list of what is good and what should be shelved, unfortunately, is accurate. I say unfortunate because you will be shelving quite a few models, and that may be tough. Believe us, its the right thing to do.

Convert what you can, proxy whatever else you can (until you can buy stuff for WYSIWYG) and shelve the rest. You may still have enough points for 1250, maybe even 1500 with proxies. Thats fine; America wasn't built in a day, and neither should your army be.

You may want to figure out what your list is going to be. Aircav, Blob foot, or Mech tend to be how guard rolls, and all of them can be good if played right. Mech and Aircav are traditionally more forgiving list-styles and will be a bit cheaper, but Blob-foot can still be good if in the right hands.

First purchase, soon as you get your paycheck/allowance/childsupport should be a Forgeworld Vulture with TL Punisher cannons. It is the bread and butter of 6th edition guard, and I've never regretted taking one.

Oh, and Welcome to the Imperial Guard.

Cheers,
-TheCaptain

I love hearing that because I really was digging the look of the Vulture with those Punisher cannons.

 Valhalla130 wrote:
I love hearing that because I really was digging the look of the Vulture with those Punisher cannons.

It looks so cool! I've proxied it once and I loved it, I just can't afford it T-T oh well, one can dream...

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Give the executioner a try sometime Ailaros, it's a bit of a "home run bat", but I've found it's absolutely disgusting when played to it's strengths. In a list that is packing tons of lascannons and melta for example, it just adds more AP 2 hate at range, and gives your opponent something they absolutely want to kill, since it can kill literally anything that can't fly/is AV 14. Mob of shoota boyz? Nothing but a green stain. Deepstriking termis? Nothing but a crater will remain. Parking lot of transports? It'll just tear everything within 5 inches of the target a new one. It can even hunt some types of MC's since instead of just one big shot, it's shooting 5 smaller ones (so up to 5 plasma hits, which shouldn't be hard with a MC's base). It's a surprisingly flexible tank, and if it wasn't 230pts it would be an autoinclude. As it is now, it's a strong unit, but needs to have a list specifically built with it in mind I feel.

It's similar to stormtroopers and heavy artillery in that it's designed to do a ton of damage, and quickly. Add in that it's got an easy 12" of range on infantry carried GL's/plasma in a worst case scenario (and usually further in game, since you don't want to rush your plasma up too soon) and that's it got the armor to shrug off most of the hate directed at it, and I've found it performs excellently as a fire magnet that has earned it's reputation. If we compare it to the GL's again, yes, the GL's are getting far more hits. They're also wounding on 5's and 4's on a good day. An executioner is wounding on 2's all the way up into MC territory, and is AP2. That means that while it's not doing as many pure wounds as the GL's might put out, the ones it puts out are far more likely to stick.

But that's just what I've noticed from them. They're awesome in a foot guard list though. Something like that draws all the attention the enemy has most of the time and gives my infantry the time they need to get crap done.

And when you take 3 of the things, it just gets redic-er I mean efficient!

I've been saying this for months. Like Moustaffa said, it really punishes deep strikers, hordes, and parking lots. If you protect it properly its a complete beast. As for displacing all you need is one model to be within 1 1/2" of another to completely obliterate a squad. Try prescience sometime on it. It gets pretty stupid pretty quick.

Also don't forget not gets hot on the cannon. Plasma guns absolutely hate me so the Executioner is a good way to get Plasma in my list w/o pulling charred vets out of their chimeras.

Glocknall wrote:
Try prescience sometime on it. It gets pretty stupid pretty quick.

I did this when deep striking hammernators landed slap bang in of my infantry thinking they were safe because of the scatter. Racked up a lot of wounds. A lot. Kinda felt bad to see my opponents smile go to a frown when he lost his death-star after 1 round of shooting.

 TheCaptain wrote:
First purchase, soon as you get your paycheck/allowance/childsupport should be a Forgeworld Vulture with TL Punisher cannons. It is the bread and butter of 6th edition guard, and I've never regretted taking one.

This x1000.

I finally dusted off one of my Vultures (they're not painted well enough to show off proudly in public anymore) and dear god did 6th edition make them even more awesome. Consistent 17-19 hits out of 20 punisher cannon shots, and vector dancer making a joke out of the whole "flyers have movement problems" thing. Easy MVP of the game, and it has motivated me to build another Vulture or two.

Alright, so in a hybrid foot/mech list, how many chimeras should be run? I have two for my plasma vets (which is all I have), and was wondering if I should try to squeeze in a few more. I was thinking of running a platoon with 3 PISs with Meltas and lascannons, so I could either spread them out to provide maximum fire down range or blob them up for KP missions, and those would fight along side the plasma vets and leman russes that would be moving down field.

 Happygrunt wrote:
Alright, so in a hybrid foot/mech list, how many chimeras should be run? I have two for my plasma vets (which is all I have), and was wondering if I should try to squeeze in a few more. I was thinking of running a platoon with 3 PISs with Meltas and lascannons, so I could either spread them out to provide maximum fire down range or blob them up for KP missions, and those would fight along side the plasma vets and leman russes that would be moving down field.

You shouldn't have a hybrid list at all, since it gives up any hope of getting target saturation.

Hybrid Guard is a no-no.

I also have only two chimeras. How many does it take to have enough saturation? I haven't fielded them for my guard arm in ages since I do foot and LRBT, or artillery. Lately I was thinking about turning them into inquisitorial rides for my henchmen. The only other thing I could think to do with the two of them is a trip to the freezer to get split apart and custom fitted into some kind o artillery, preferably something from FW so I can avoid having to purchase it. Any suggestions?

Peregrine wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
Alright, so in a hybrid foot/mech list, how many chimeras should be run? I have two for my plasma vets (which is all I have), and was wondering if I should try to squeeze in a few more. I was thinking of running a platoon with 3 PISs with Meltas and lascannons, so I could either spread them out to provide maximum fire down range or blob them up for KP missions, and those would fight along side the plasma vets and leman russes that would be moving down field.

You shouldn't have a hybrid list at all, since it gives up any hope of getting target saturation.

TheCaptain wrote:Hybrid Guard is a no-no.

So I just wasted 60+ on chimeras I can't use? Fantastic...

 Happygrunt wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:Hybrid Guard is a no-no.

So I just wasted 60+ on chimeras I can't use? Fantastic...

I mean, in my foot list, I put my CCS in a Chimera for some extra protection. Chimera with Camo netting behind an Aegis keeps my warlord relatively safe.

For what it's worth: I run my chimeras with plasma CCS, and then park those chimeras behind some leman russes.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:Hybrid Guard is a no-no.

So I just wasted 60+ on chimeras I can't use? Fantastic...

I mean, in my foot list, I put my CCS in a Chimera for some extra protection. Chimera with Camo netting behind an Aegis keeps my warlord relatively safe.

Problem is, in my normal list, those two chimeras were my only source of mobility.

The more I read about IG tactics, the more disappointed I am with my IG army.

 Happygrunt wrote:
So I just wasted 60+ on chimeras I can't use? Fantastic...

Pretty much. The problem with having 1-2 Chimeras in a foot list is that you mostly just give your opponent's anti-tank weapons something effective to shoot at. Instead of just inefficiently killing a single meatshield guardsman every other turn suddenly those missile launchers/autocannons/etc have a target that justifies their existence and the Chimera will be quickly destroyed. If you'd spent those 55 points on more guardsmen they would take a lot longer to kill, and do more before dying.

Problem is, in my foot list, those two chimeras were my only source of mobility.

That's good in theory, but not in practice. You don't want to move up too early with IG, and late in the game 1-2 Chimeras are going to be dead without the Medusas/other Chimeras/etc giving target saturation and ensuring that something survives. So in reality the theoretical mobility advantage disappears, and it's just a point sink.

I should probably add that I played a foot list in the loosest since of the world. Unless you count the treads on the 3-4 leman russes I ran as "feet".

 Happygrunt wrote:
I should probably add that I played a foot list in the loosest since of the world. Unless you count the treads on the 3-4 leman russes I ran as "feet".

Well yeah, foot-guard tends to be Foot Blobs AND Tanks.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
I should probably add that I played a foot list in the loosest since of the world. Unless you count the treads on the 3-4 leman russes I ran as "feet".

Well yeah, foot-guard tends to be Foot Blobs AND Tanks.

Is there a good guideline for the main IG builds? I always felt that I played a hybrid list, but I guess I really wasn't.

 Happygrunt wrote:
I should probably add that I played a foot list in the loosest since of the world. Unless you count the treads on the 3-4 leman russes I ran as "feet".

Yeah, but the problem is there's a class of weapons that are good against Chimeras but not anything else. For example, if your opponent brought ACs or MLs those guns don't have the volume of fire to kill foot hordes effectively, and can't deal with AV 14 effectively (or at all). Against a combination of foot hordes and AV 14 the points spent on those units are pretty much wasted, and you gain a huge advantage. On the other hand, if you bring a Chimera or two those units suddenly have a good target and are worth their points, so you just lost the advantage you had by not bringing them. And since they're the only target on the table for ACs and MLs they'll probably die before doing anything useful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happygrunt wrote:
Is there a good guideline for the main IG builds? I always felt that I played a hybrid list, but I guess I really wasn't.

Foot: infantry platoon after infantry platoon, optionally with AV 14 tanks.

Mech: melta/plasma veterans in Chimeras/Vendettas, tanks of every kind.

Hybrid: you just bought a random pile of stuff on ebay and can't figure out what to do with it.

Flyers go in any of the three lists, since they're outside of the traditional mech vs. foot debate.

Yeah peregrine sums up the whole "foot, mech, hybrid" thing.

It's not the list in it's entirety, so much as "how are the troops treated?"
Are they all on foot? It's a foot list. I've seen foot lists that have up to ten or more armored vehicles, almost all of which are battle tanks or attack craft.

Are all the infantry in chimeras? It's a mech list. Pretty self explanatory

Is there a mix of mounted and dismounted infantry? It's a hybrid list, as it mixes the two.

You also have aircav, where a large amount of your infantry are riding in fliers, but it's a bit harder to define now that you can't do an all reserves army anymore. Nowadays an Aircav list often mimics a hybrid list, except instead of chimeras you have vets in valks/vendettas, with a platoon or two holding down your deployment zone on foot.

So, if I were to redo my current guard list, large infantry squads, leman russes and maybe some plasma vets all on foot would be a solid foot list?