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I'm actually trying to talk myself into buying the FW Medusas. lol

 Valhalla130 wrote:
I'm actually trying to talk myself into buying the FW Medusas. lol

The conversion kit isn't all that expensive, and I believe it is pretty easily swapped out for the regular basilisk parts.

I strongly disrecommend doing this, since Medusas are a terrible unit. Imagine a Vindicator with +12" range. Sounds great, right? Except then you realize that it costs 20 points more for AV 12/10/10 open-topped. To make matters worse, it's a priority target, so nearly any army that is threatened by it can pick it off before it fires more than once or twice.

I think literally every other artillery piece in the Codex is better than the Medusa, including the Deathstrike Missile. At least they can mitigate their defensive weaknesses via Line of Sight denial...

 Kingsley wrote:
I strongly disrecommend doing this, since Medusas are a terrible unit. Imagine a Vindicator with +12" range. Sounds great, right? Except then you realize that it costs 20 points more for AV 12/10/10 open-topped. To make matters worse, it's a priority target, so nearly any army that is threatened by it can pick it off before it fires more than once or twice.

I think literally every other artillery piece in the Codex is better than the Medusa, including the Deathstrike Missile. At least they can mitigate their defensive weaknesses via Line of Sight denial...

Well this is...just silly. Medusae are excellent, and if you are facing too much heavy long-range Anti-armor, you stuff them behind cover/LOS until stuff is in range.

Saying the deathstrike is better then the Medusa...well, come on. It makes you look clueless on the matter. No offense intended.

Also, Vindicators aren't available in Squadrons. Medusas are.

That and Medusas have Barrage, which makes them a lot better at killing stuff in cover that isn't area terrain. I think I'd still prefer a Vindicator because of the higher BS, but it doesn't mean the Medusa is terrible.

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
That and Medusas have Barrage, which makes them a lot better at killing stuff in cover that isn't area terrain. I think I'd still prefer a Vindicator because of the higher BS, but it doesn't mean the Medusa is terrible.

Are you sure?

Are you really sure about that?

Because:

No they don't.

Medusas don't have Barrage.

Wow, I stand corrected... they do not have barrage. My bad.

If Medusas had Barrage, they'd be great. But they don't, so they die instantly against almost any opponent with good target priority. You can fix their survivability to an extent with ACC/camo netting, but then they cost way too much. It's really a losing battle IMO.

DKOK used to get barrage medusas, although they have since been brought in line with the current stats. Barrage medusa with 24-120 range for 100 points. Sure, it was immobile, but it was awesome. Probably a good thing they changed it really.

I still like the idea of a 3 Griffon squadron dropping ordnance on a unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How about this? Sponsons on Leman Russ' or not? I got to where I ran them without sponsons in 3rd edition. And I sort of think they look sleeker that way, but then, them looking like big behemoths is part of their charm.

 Kingsley wrote:
If Medusas had Barrage, they'd be great. But they don't, so they die instantly against almost any opponent with good target priority. You can fix their survivability to an extent with ACC/camo netting, but then they cost way too much. It's really a losing battle IMO.

This is how I feel to be honest. Although I've never fielded a Medusa so I can't really comment. At 130pts I feel like I can spare the extra 35pts to grab a demolisher instead.

A medusa isn't just a down-armored vanquisher.

If you pay for bastion breacher shells (which is the only apt comparison), you're losing closed-top and AV14, but you're also gaining a small price break, a small blast template (so they're more accurate), +1S (which is important against vehicles), and, holy of holies, Ap1, which straight-away makes them 50% more likely to wreck what they hit.

Comparing them to a demolisher, they're now even cheaper (in this case, 30 points), don't require you to expose yourself out of cover (the difference between 24" and 36" is rather pronounced), and gives you not only a wider variety of targets, but it means you can hammer on stuff a lot better turn 1. Plus, now that the demolisher has behemoth, the medusa is also faster in the rare case you're going to want to move it. And that's important too, you don't HAVE to move them as much, so you get more flexibility.

Comparind them to a vindicator makes no sense, as the guard codex can't take vindicators. If you're talking about allies, then you need to add the ally tax onto the price of the vindicator. It also doesn't qualify as an "IG tactics/tricks", as it would be about a unit from a different army.

Medusas are awesome. They have one very important thing that the Demolisher and Vindicator lack: 36" range. That extra 12" of range is often the difference between settling for a mediocre shot on turn 1 and dropping that nice pie plate of death on a priority target. Sure, losing AV 14 hurts, but I'd rather have a tank that does a ton of damage on turn 1-2 before dying than a tank that does less damage before being killed or shaken by melta/lascannons/etc almost as fast.

Also, the Armageddon-pattern Medusa is a beautiful model, especially if you take the time to properly detail the interior and add crew.

I guess it burns down to risk vs reward with the Medusa - as I said, I've never used one, but it appears that it has the potential to really put down some hurt quickly. Textbook glass cannon.

Well, it's also a damage thing. If your opponent is good about displacement, and about keeping choice targets out of range, it could well be until turn 3 before the demolisher has a chance to really sink its teeth into something. That amount of wasted time is a serious liability. You want your support units hitting fast and hard right away. Well, there are some support units for which this isn't true (like stormtroopers), but the demolisher isn't really an exception to this rule.

The range and now lack of speed issue make the demolisher a defensive weapon for wailing on deepstrikers and the like, rather than an offensive weapon. If you want an offensive weapon, you need more speed or more range, both of which the medusa gives you.

Personally, though, I'm having a hard time seeing the benefit of the medusa over the basilisk nowadays. Yes, yes, the basilisk won't hurt terminators, etc, but I have the rest of my army to deal with that. The thing with the basilisk, though, is that its barrage rules more than make up for the 1 point drop in Ap, due to sweeping away cover saves (especially on night fighting games, depending), and you also hit on side armor, rhinos, but it does make a difference against russes, chimeras, and battlewagons.

If what's important is turn 1 and turn 2 damage, I think I'd rather have basilisks in this case. I'd say manticores, but you can't squad them.

So.. is putting more than one Basilisk in a squadron a good idea? Do you really need three Bassies firing at the same target?

 Valhalla130 wrote:
So.. is putting more than one Basilisk in a squadron a good idea? Do you really need three Bassies firing at the same target?

Two is generally a decent idea.

The difference is pretty big. With one, even if it hits the whole squad, unless you wound every single guy; squad won't be wiped. Having two allows you to put more hits than there are squadmembers, meaning squad-wiping becomes a much more real possibility.

Yeah, and I don't know if I'd do three of something in a single squad unless I was spamming the HELL out of it. The 9 basilisks at 1850 points list, for example.

I also like the idea of two though. Not only for the above reason, but also because you're talking about a somewhat fragile unit that squadding them up helps reduce VP loss on (on purge and big guns missions).

I mean, if you have four russes, two squads of two is probably going to be better than two squads of one and one squad of two. Killing a single russ is difficult, but accomplishable. Killing both russes to claim that victory point is going to be a different matter, especially when you start talking about squad shenannigans, like moving the vehicle with fewer HP back behind the other squadmember.

 TheCaptain wrote:
The difference is pretty big. With one, even if it hits the whole squad, unless you wound every single guy; squad won't be wiped. Having two allows you to put more hits than there are squadmembers, meaning squad-wiping becomes a much more real possibility.

IMO this was a better idea before barrage weapons lost direct fire. The multiple barrage rules really hurt your accuracy, and taking a squadron of two instead of two single models leaves you vulnerable to a badly missed first shot ensuring that your second shot misses as well. And with a 36" minimum range the chances of badly missing the first shot are pretty bad.

It also makes it so that if you hit on the first die, then the second one can only scatter so far.

Multiple barrage is a wash, accuracy-wise.

 Ailaros wrote:
It also makes it so that if you hit on the first die, then the second one can only scatter so far.

Multiple barrage is a wash, accuracy-wise.

Actually that's a terrible thing. If you roll a direct hit with the first shot the minimum (and only) scatter distance for the next shot(s) is 5". If you have LOS to the target, that's equivalent to rolling an 8, or 1" more than the average scatter distance for a single shot. Sure, you rule out the worst cases, but only at the cost of ruling out the best cases and settling for a result that's worse than average.

This is why the "use a Griffon to help the other artillery" idea is so stupid, you pay 75 points to make your other shot worse.

Except that you don't. If you roll a HIT on your followup shot, you can place it however you want as long as you overlap the original blast marker. It only flips if you scatter.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Except that you don't. If you roll a HIT on your followup shot, you can place it however you want as long as you overlap the original blast marker. It only flips if you scatter.

Err, we know that. We're talking about the case where it does scatter.

Multiple barrage is only advantageous when you have alot of blasts to lie down, example being a quad gun or blobb mortars.

Anything else will waste the 2nd blast except against hordes which you didn't need help hitting.

The griffon can work by putting the griffon blast at the far edge of a squad but very honestly it is rarely worth it.

Artillery should only come in increments of 1 or 3; and 3 is you packing the entire FO chart.

 ansacs wrote:
Multiple barrage is only advantageous when you have alot of blasts to lie down, example being a quad gun or blobb mortars.

Anything else will waste the 2nd blast except against hordes which you didn't need help hitting.

The griffon can work by putting the griffon blast at the far edge of a squad but very honestly it is rarely worth it.

Artillery should only come in increments of 1 or 3; and 3 is you packing the entire FO chart.

What.

What kind of wargear do you give your captains/lieutenants/sergeants? Or do you bother with wargear at all for them?

If they are in a plasmavet/plasmacommand squad, I give 'em a pair of plasma pistols. Why not?

Also, I occasionally run a plasma sarge in with my stormtroopers.

I give my captain a power fist. He's got a decent WS, multiple wounds, and an invul save. Plus, your opponent is going to try and kill him. The powerfist is cheap, and gives him a real chance in close combat, plus, it actually makes him rather beaty against small or injured squads, especially if you give him some help from like a priest or Kell or something.

As for junior officers, don't bother. They're guardsmen who can give orders. Not very likely to survive to do anything useful with expensive pistol and close combat upgrades.