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 Happygrunt wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
You guys are assuming that all your execution hits are going to actually clip a model. The Demolisher will also not blow itself up.

If you are running just the executioner cannon, the executioner can't blow itself up either. Only the sponsons have gets hot.

Plus, the executioner out ranges the demolisher by 12".

If your counting 5 hits, then I am counting gets hot. Don't get me wrong I like the all Plas executioner. I jut think that the Demolisher is better if you are only taking one LRBT variant.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
You guys are assuming that all your execution hits are going to actually clip a model. The Demolisher will also not blow itself up.

If you are running just the executioner cannon, the executioner can't blow itself up either. Only the sponsons have gets hot.

Plus, the executioner out ranges the demolisher by 12".

If your counting 5 hits, then I am counting gets hot. Don't get me wrong I like the all Plas executioner. I jut think that the Demolisher is better if you are only taking one LRBT variant.

Fair enough, and I think the demolisher is a great tank. It just feels limited in it's use (at least to me).

When I run BA, I have 2 Vindicators running around. I know how good S10 AP2 can be, but I also know it's limitations. You have to get closer then almost any other LRBT variant for it to fire.

It should be noted that I do not run one LRBT variant, I am usually running 1-2 LRBT, an exterminator and the executioner.

 Ailaros wrote:
I've actually got to correct you on the demoliser v. executioner with regard to number of hits.

Your opponents only need to spread out just a little over 1" between models in order for a small blast template to only hit 1 model per shot. Meanwhile, with a large blast template, you always hit at least 3 models, even at max coherency.

So, if it's possible for your opponent to make you only get three hits either way, what does it matter? Well, it matters because it's a lot tougher to maintain exact 2" coherency than it is to maintain 1+" coherency, once we start talking about practical experience on the tabletop. Furthermore, this means that there is a range between 1" coherency and 2" coherency where the large blast is hitting more models, while the small blast is still hitting one.

And its cheaper.

The executioner does have a couple of real advantages, like being able to hurt monstrous creatures better, but the demolisher is better in general.

Actually that only applies with 25mm bases. If your facing non-standard bases like 40mm bases or larger your number of hits goes down as the breadth of the base will eat into the radius of the large blast. I play against a lot of Nob Bikers and Paladin squads and my opponents are very good at spreading them about so I cannot usually catch more than two in any one blast.

As pointed out above ordnance is a double edge sword, severely limiting the additional firepower of the tank.

5 small blasts trump one large one any day. You only have a 33% chance of a direct hit and your average scatter is 7"- 3 BS. With a 4 inch scatter You'd be lucky to even get a portion of the template on a vehicle. Hardly anything I'd depend on.

Also I can fire my hull LC, and my sponsons. Every time at full BS.

And I keep away from Psycannons and Gauss.

Demolisher pre 1.1 FAQ was a standby in my army. But I dont take LR for a single shot per turn. That is what Arty is for.

Glocknall wrote:
With a 4 inch scatter You'd be lucky to even get a portion of the template on a vehicle. Hardly anything I'd depend on.

That's not at all true. You have an average scatter of 4", but you can scatter 2.5" before the template no longer touches the initial aiming point, and another 1-2" before it leaves the vehicle entirely. So about 50% of the time you don't hit directly you'll still hit a vehicle target, for a total of 66% of the time. That's BS 4, and I don't think many people will argue that a BS 4 weapon is too inaccurate to depend on.

 Peregrine wrote:

Glocknall wrote:
With a 4 inch scatter You'd be lucky to even get a portion of the template on a vehicle. Hardly anything I'd depend on.

That's not at all true. You have an average scatter of 4", but you can scatter 2.5" before the template no longer touches the initial aiming point, and another 1-2" before it leaves the vehicle entirely. So about 50% of the time you don't hit directly you'll still hit a vehicle target, for a total of 66% of the time. That's BS 4, and I don't think many people will argue that a BS 4 weapon is too inaccurate to depend on.

But a Leman Russ is BS 3, so will the math still work out the same?

Right, unlike a small blast which can't scatter as far. Which is really important in this case as with a demolisher you can scatter 7" and still hit, while with the small blast, you can only scatter 5", which, given how the bell curve looks for 2D6 is rather important.

And it's a moot point anyways, because S10 ordnance is going to be way, way better at killing most vehicles than S7 blast.

Also, 5 small blasts isn't always straight away better than 1 large blast. You've got to take other things into consideration like strength and, in this case, price. It's also important to note that the price of plasma cannon sponsons doesn't really make the plasma boat executioner all that much more efficient at dispensing plasma blasts, while also making the vehicles more unfortunate of targets when they get ripped apart by death rays.

 Happygrunt wrote:
But a Leman Russ is BS 3, so will the math still work out the same?

What I mean is that the LR Demolisher's main gun has about the same chance of hitting a vehicle target as a single-shot BS 4 weapon, which is hardly inaccurate.

Exactly, unless we're talking about a really big target like a land raider, in which case the BS is even better (and S7 can't even hurt).

Actually, this is starting to give me second thoughts about a pask demolisher. He won't get to use the + to armor penetration (like S10 ordnance needs it), but he'd still get to use BS4. Being able to still hit a vehicle even after scattering up to 9" is close enough to "look, it's going to hit what it shoots at" to me.

 Ailaros wrote:
He won't get to use the + to armor penetration (like S10 ordnance needs it)

Just to remove the ambiguity here in case anyone else is reading this: the bonus still applies just fine, you just tend to move demolishers too much to ever meet the "no moving" requirement. If you ever happen to be in a situation where you don't need to move you'll still get the bonus to armor penetration.

The best 30 points in the IG book is giving 10 guys melta bombs and 1 guy a demo charge.
That's a seriously under-costed upgrade.

I run 50-60 vets with melta bombs as my troops. I find it a way better anti-tank wrap than any number of melta guns.
People get careless about getting too close to IG infantry forgetting that they can assault.

-Matt

I would use the demolisher over the executioner, simply for speed. I don't like scattering loads of templates, and resolving 5 takes far longer than one. With such a large infantry force, I need to speed things up a bit or it gets annoying for both sides. This is one of the reasons I'm thinking about dropping the manticore, it takes a while to work out multiple barrage against a squad.

 Ailaros wrote:
Exactly, unless we're talking about a really big target like a land raider, in which case the BS is even better (and S7 can't even hurt).

Actually, this is starting to give me second thoughts about a pask demolisher. He won't get to use the + to armor penetration (like S10 ordnance needs it), but he'd still get to use BS4. Being able to still hit a vehicle even after scattering up to 9" is close enough to "look, it's going to hit what it shoots at" to me.

That's great, but how is a Demolisher better than say a Manticore. A Manticore gets twice as many shots on average, fires from the get go, and is barrage. Demolisher has to get too close to defend itself anymore now that it basically gets one shot. Squad of marines is not going to be afraid of closing on a Demolisher anymore because at best it can only kill 3 per turn. Before the 1.1 FAQ with MM or PC sponsons and a hull LC the amount of firepower it could put out would devastate nearly anything. One shot on a LR tank just does not cut it at 24". The LR is a mobile gun boat, not an uparmored piece of artillery. Oh and don't forget about cover.

A LR will need 2-3 shots to kill a chimera. You think those Melta Vets are going to give you the time to get those shots off before they fry your Demo? Nope. Necron Warriors wont either. Grey Knights wont as well. Eldar lances dont care as well. I suppose if your happy driving up your Demo like an overpriced Vindicator your more than welcome to do so.

Glocknall wrote:

A LR will need 2-3 shots to kill a chimera.

Why are you shooting a Leman russ at a chimera...

TheCaptain wrote:

Glocknall wrote:A LR will need 2-3 shots to kill a chimera.

Why are you shooting a Leman russ at a chimera...

It may be the most crucial target to take down.

I would like to note, though, that a demolisher will blow up a chimera at the same speed as three vets inside with meltaguns will blow up a demolisher.

Glocknall wrote:That's great, but how is a Demolisher better than say a Manticore. A Manticore gets twice as many shots on average, fires from the get go, and is barrage. Demolisher has to get too close to defend itself anymore now that it basically gets one shot.

Firstly, the demolisher is better because of Ap2. The demolisher always kills vehicles twice as fast per shot. The manticore may get twice as many shots, and it might get more, but it might get less. Don't be fooled into thinking there is an average number of shots a manticore gets, because there isn't. It's just less reliable.

Of course, Ap2 also means that you're actually hurting monstrous creatures and TEq and MEq, or forcing them all into cover, and is also a hard counter to deathstar units in a way a manticore will never be.

Secondly, the demolisher does have to expose itself to shoot, but it's also AV14. A missile launcher longfang squad will kill AV12 with a 4+ cover save much faster than an AV14 vehicle without one. Meanwhile, russes just don't care about autocannons or scatterlasers. They even only give passing concern to lascannons, a weapon which will cause a penetrating hit on a manticore half of the time it hits.

The manticore is nice for its barrage abilities, certainly, but it's not just strictly better.

I bring both manticores and demolishers!

 Ailaros wrote:

TheCaptain wrote:

Glocknall wrote:A LR will need 2-3 shots to kill a chimera.

Why are you shooting a Leman russ at a chimera...

It may be the most crucial target to take down.

Haha no like, I understand that situationally you may have to do so, but I hardly think you should be gauging the strength of a LRD based on how it can pen AV12.

It's for killing mobs of elites.

You know, my way of scaling things has been changing over time. I really don't consider it an anti-AV12 weapon anymore unless it's S8 Ap1, S9 Ap2, or S10.

After half a rules edition of trying to peel paint with autocannons and missile launchers, I just want to shoot AV12 and have it just friggin die already.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Wading into the debate on Marbo: He's always performed well for me, admirably in fact for a 65pt unit...
I don't touch him anymore due to there being better ways to spend those 65pts in my opinion. I'd rather take more weapons than a one-trick-pony.

People who call Marbo a 1 trick pony often just look at the Demo Charge and assume that's what you're paying for. In a way, yes it is.

But let's look at the rest of his equipment:
Ripper Pistol (R12" StrX AP2, Pistol)
Melta Bombs
Envenomed Blade (Poisoned 2+, AP-)
Frag Grenades
Demolition Charge

Special rules: Fleet, Fearless, Move Through Cover, Stealth

If you put Marbo in a Ruin when he shows up, not only can he Nuke a squad, but he will also have a 3+ cover save. I've had him survive multiple times this way, and he's gone on to wreck squads that way. Fire his pistol, and then charge into combat with 6 WS5 I5 attacks that wound on a 2+. He won't beat Terminators in combat, but that's why you blow them up beforehand, and that's why you shoot them with the Ripper Pistol!

Anecdotal yes, but Marbo has a precision that you just don't find in the Guard. When I was fighting a trio of Manticores hiding behind a building that wasn't accessible through normal means, Marbo saved the day by hitting one with a Demo Charge, and then destroying the other two with Melta Bombs. For his cost he's fantastic. I've played quite a few games of 6th since it came out and I will always make room for Mr. Marbo

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

...listing gak from the codex...

Anecdotal yes, but Marbo has a precision that you just don't find in the Guard. When I was fighting a trio of Manticores hiding behind a building that wasn't accessible through normal means, Marbo saved the day by hitting one with a Demo Charge, and then destroying the other two with Melta Bombs.

Great can I put in an anecdote too? One time, it took Marbo 3 turns of consecutively missing with melta bombs on a predator. Oh also this one time, Marbo threw his demo charge, killed a couple of terminators then was shot to death. Oh wait the second one happens almost every time.

My problem with him, is that if you want to be aggressive with that demo charge, he's not going to survive to do much else. He's actually quite squishy to massed bolter fire. When he's deep behind enemy lines, those bolters, lasguns, fire warrior guns whatever they're called etc don't have a lot else to shoot at on turn 2. Yeah I've had him do some awesome things, like challenge then hit and run out. It's just I'd rather more guns.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Oh also this one time, Marbo threw his demo charge, killed a couple of terminators then was shot to death. Oh wait the second one happens almost every time.

And this is why Marbo is awesome. Your "disappointing" scenario is one where Marbo killed a minimum of 80 points of terminators for 65 points, then took a whole unit's shooting. That's a deal I'll take every time without hesitation.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
Oh also this one time, Marbo threw his demo charge, killed a couple of terminators then was shot to death. Oh wait the second one happens almost every time.

And this is why Marbo is awesome. Your "disappointing" scenario is one where Marbo killed a minimum of 80 points of terminators for 65 points, then took a whole unit's shooting. That's a deal I'll take every time without hesitation.

Haha indeed.

That awkward moment when your counterargument actually helps the opposing viewpoint.

That being said, I understand that Marbo doesn't work with everyone's playstyle, which is fine.

back to marbo again?
ah well. He can work and he doesnt on other days, but it is hialrious to see him take out 6 necron immortals and a cryptek, then get eradicated by tesla fire in the next turn

Reading all the posts about Imperial Guard tactics and the amount of advice geared towards "Getting more weapons" reminds me of a quote of a certain Engineer. Here's my butchered version of it, modified for the Imperial Guard.

TheCustomLime wrote:
Reading all the posts about Imperial Guard tactics and the amount of advice geared towards "Getting more weapons" reminds me of a quote of a certain Engineer. Here's my butchered version of it, modified for the Imperial Guard.

Spoiler:

"Hey look buddy, I'm a Guard player. That means I solve problems. No problems like "What is the best special character?", because that would fall within the purview of Marine Codices".

"I solve practical problems! For instance, how am I going to stop some big mean mother hubbard from tearing my army a structurally superflous new behind?".

"The answer is a gun. And if that don't work, use more gun".

"Like this AP2, S10 Large blast little ol' number assembled by me".

"Painted by me".

"And you best hope... not pointed at you".

Great game.

That's the long and short of it, we'll just argue about what dakka is the best dakka.

Peregrine wrote:
And this is why Marbo is awesome. Your "disappointing" scenario is one where Marbo killed a minimum of 80 points of terminators for 65 points, then took a whole unit's shooting. That's a deal I'll take every time without hesitation.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

That awkward moment when your counterargument actually helps the opposing viewpoint.

That being said, I understand that Marbo doesn't work with everyone's playstyle, which is fine.

So when my melta-gun toting vet kills 2 marines it's ok to let him die? I mean, he got his points back, and some. You can't measure a unit only by its ability to remove its points cost before it dies. Obviously that's a factor, but something that's so easy to remove is a one trick pony.

OMG can we stop talking about Marbo lol. Was hoping this thread would amount to some awesome tactica IG thread like the GK tactica and Vanilla SM tactica threads. Instead it's about 2-3 pages of arguing about Marbo. Kinda funny, kinda annoying..

Anywaysssss...
To give Vendettas duality purposes, do you guys ever give them HBs? I've been doing this recently and I think it's good. Only done it in 2 games so far though. Past turn 3 most AV is dead or almost dead vs guard so getting 2x sponson HBs in for about 2 rounds of shooting with those HBs fairs pretty well for 10 pts IMO.

Thoughts?

 Griddlelol wrote:

Obviously that's a factor, but something that's so easy to remove is a one trick pony.

And that's a bad thing? I mean, you can hardly fault a unit for doing what it's meant to do well and efficiently.

But he doesn't do it well against smart opponents, and he never does it efficiently. That's the problem.

syypher wrote:

To give Vendettas duality purposes, do you guys ever give them HBs?

Dual Purpose in the Guard Codex, he says...

Nah; Vendetta is a dedicated Lascannon Platform. If you don't have anything worth zapping with your lascannons, fly her off the board and back on next turn. Safer and more strategically reliable than spending an extra turn on the board maybe killing one dude with a HB.

10 points that could be spent elsewhere, Imho.