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 amrogers3 wrote:
Have never run IG before. Are there any tricks/tactics/tip for IG list building and running an IG army?

In my own personal experience, everytime i beef up my vets with plasma, GL, Meltas, it always seems the Lasguns that get the kill shots ( against non-Vehicles that is ) lol, my oppenent will almost always save against the plasmas ( if they can ) same with the GLs and Meltas, But the damn lasguns or just that last lasgun shot always ends up wounding lol. Its halarious but also disheartning lol

 Diezel wrote:

 amrogers3 wrote:
Have never run IG before. Are there any tricks/tactics/tip for IG list building and running an IG army?

In my own personal experience, everytime i beef up my vets with plasma, GL, Meltas, it always seems the Lasguns that get the kill shots ( against non-Vehicles that is ) lol, my oppenent will almost always save against the plasmas ( if they can ) same with the GLs and Meltas, But the damn lasguns or just that last lasgun shot always ends up wounding lol. Its halarious but also disheartning lol

Math and probability disagrees with your disproportionate luck.

Anecdotal experience based on wildly unlikely odds does not make good advice.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Diezel wrote:

 amrogers3 wrote:
Have never run IG before. Are there any tricks/tactics/tip for IG list building and running an IG army?

In my own personal experience, everytime i beef up my vets with plasma, GL, Meltas, it always seems the Lasguns that get the kill shots ( against non-Vehicles that is ) lol, my oppenent will almost always save against the plasmas ( if they can ) same with the GLs and Meltas, But the damn lasguns or just that last lasgun shot always ends up wounding lol. Its halarious but also disheartning lol

Math and probability disagrees with your disproportionate luck.

Anecdotal experience based on wildly unlikely odds does not make good advice.

It was more of a comment then advice if you actually read it
and considering the fact your bound to fail a save if your made to roll for it enough times, that makes you wrong. Its just the way it works out that my special weapons dont seem to be the lucky one in that instance.

Thanks for coming out though

In my last 5 games I've had atleast 50% of my plasma guys kill themselves off in the first round of shooting. They still end up killing more points than I paid for em.
I've had my melta hedge do nothing for those games except put a (saved) wound on a biker.
I've had 50 lasgun shots kill nothing, only for a sergeant to turn around and headshot something.
I've had marbo kill off 6 worldeater plasmacannons guys in a turn, tabling the opponent, and he's done no wounds against the 20 guardsmen in his large blast.
I've had stormtroopers...erm... kill a rhino. No-one here likes to play with armour apparently.

The dice gods are fickle things.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
You know, my way of scaling things has been changing over time. I really don't consider it an anti-AV12 weapon anymore unless it's S8 Ap1, S9 Ap2, or S10.

After half a rules edition of trying to peel paint with autocannons and missile launchers, I just want to shoot AV12 and have it just friggin die already.

its true, Dark Lances are terrible at killing AV12

IG doesn't get Dark lances. We get autocannons, meltaguns, plasma, lascannons, and missile launchers as our only serious infantry carried antitank weapons.

Meltas kill all armor up close.
Plasma kills light armor at fairly close.
Autocannons kill light armor at range.
Lascannons kill heavier armor at range.
Missiles fail at everything.

I guarantee you that if IG had access to lances, we would spam the hell out of them, but we don't. When looking at Anti tank from a purely IG perspective, Ailaros pretty much has it covered. It better be so strong that it's always penning, or have an AP bonus so that when it does pen, it can actually do damage. Hence why a lot of people are getting frustrated with autocannons (like myself) They don't have a high enough strength to really cut through armor most of the time, and by the time you've got enough glances to kill something, said unit has either done its job or eaten half your army's shots on the first turn, both of which are bad.

yeah, I get it. I was merely noting that the DL, the anti tank weapon of choice for DE, isnt even very good at killing AV12 which is what Ailaros was saying. Missile launchers are worse than dark lances, so they arent good at AV12 either. Lascannons and melta(outside melta range) are better than DL, so they are ok at killing av12.

 Diezel wrote:


It was more of a comment then advice if you actually read it
and considering the fact your bound to fail a save if your made to roll for it enough times, that makes you wrong. Its just the way it works out that my special weapons dont seem to be the lucky one in that instance.

Thanks for coming out though

I'm not even going to touch the amount of fallacies and false logic are involved in your statement.

Just carry on with your lasguns.



Some math for you, though.

Lasgun guardsman costs 5 points. Kills a Space Marine 5% of the time with one shot.

Plasmagun guardsman costs 20 points. Kills a Space Marine 41% of the time with one shot.


So no, I'm definitely right. Math favors the plasmagun.

considering the fact your bound to fail a save if your made to roll for it enough times, that makes you wrong

No.

If you saturate lasguns, of course they will kill something. But that doesn't make it the smart thing to do.

That's like saying Missile Launchers are Land Raider-killers.

Maybe not all the time, but in March, I was regularly playing against a guy who ran 4 land raiders and with the models I had, it seemed I reliably killed one LR a game (in fact, usually the only LR a game) with one of my SM missile launchers. Granted, they had a higher BS, so that helped, but if it connects, it does have the chance to kill one. Just... a hellaciously slim chance.

So, all I'll say about luck is this. Statistics show what happens in the world of large numbers (specifically, an infinite number of them). In the real world, though, we have fewer events. Many fewer. As such, the smaller the numbers we're talking about, the more that what we're looking at is vulnerable to trends. Even if, on average, a demolisher cannon will hit its target half the time, it is very possible to miss with all 5 shots, or hit with all of them (I've seen both of these personally) over the course of a game. Likewise, it's possible to have things trend over several games.

As such, talking about tactics requires objectivity for the purpose of dialogue (I shouldn't necessarily take something in my army just because you're lucky with them, for example), but there is a little wiggle room in here. In the end, you've got to go with whatever you're lucky with. Might as well ride the trends, rather than fight them.

 TheCaptain wrote:

 Diezel wrote:


It was more of a comment then advice if you actually read it
and considering the fact your bound to fail a save if your made to roll for it enough times, that makes you wrong. Its just the way it works out that my special weapons dont seem to be the lucky one in that instance.

Thanks for coming out though

I'm not even going to touch the amount of fallacies and false logic are involved in your statement.

Just carry on with your lasguns.



Some math for you, though.

Lasgun guardsman costs 5 points. Kills a Space Marine 5% of the time with one shot.

Plasmagun guardsman costs 20 points. Kills a Space Marine 41% of the time with one shot.


So no, I'm definitely right. Math favors the plasmagun.

considering the fact your bound to fail a save if your made to roll for it enough times, that makes you wrong

No.

If you saturate lasguns, of course they will kill something. But that doesn't make it the smart thing to do.

That's like saying Missile Launchers are Land Raider-killers.

LMFAO!!! I love how you say you wont comment, Yet you do it anyway.

So i hate to burst your bubble here, but where in my original post or even my second post on this thread did i suggest he use all lasguns? or plasmas? or meltas? if my eye sight serves me well i didnt give even a little piece of advice, i simply made a comment on what happens a majority of the time i play IG.

Again, Thanks for coming out Bud

 Ailaros wrote:
In the end, you've got to go with whatever you're lucky with. Might as well ride the trends, rather than fight them.

That would be the gambler's fallacy. Individual die rolls may not always be average, but they are always independent. There is no such thing as "what you're lucky with", and absolutely no reason to believe that a unit that has rolled well in the past will continue to do so.

I don't know. With IG, the law of averages show I should hit what I'm shooting at 50% of the time. But I'll be the first one to point out how I never hit anything ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ever.

I hit lots of stuff. The problem is that 'stuff' has 3+ invulnerables or 14 frontal armor. I find that sometimes my biggest asset is how stupidly long I can make someone taking killing pion guardsman. I often feel like I'm channeling Zapp Brannigan when I'm sending wave after wave of my own men to their death. You see greater demons have a preset kill limit per turn...

Men, you're lucky men. Soon, you'll all be fighting for your planet. Many of you will be dying for your planet. A few of you will be put through a fine mesh screen for your planet. They will be the luckiest of all.

Why don't people here like Hellhounds? A S6 AP4 Torrent flamer on a fast tank chassis? Hell yeah. 12" move + 12" Torrent + 8" template = 32" range of burny goodness. Run it up a flank and start burning up the backline. With the general meta shifting away from armour and into large blobs of infantry, Hellhounds are going to become far more useful IMO. Of course if you play against Marines 24/7 the 'Hound won't be so good, but if you play against Xenos or guard that damn thing will be invaluable for objective clearing. Hell the HB might be worth keeping if you use it as a harassment unit, keeping it ~18" away from the enemy and using your Inferno Cannon to BBQ things while your HB sports some shots in. Yeah it's a FA slot, but how many Vendettas are you really going to need?

For Hilarity, CREEEED!!! a squadron of Hellhounds/Banewolves 12" forwards, then burn things 1st turn. Obviously don't do this if you have 2nd turn or facing someone who can easily seize initiative, but is hilarious when you evaporate a unit 1st turn with 6 templates.

The problem with all hellhound models is that they present a pretty big threat, but they need to get close to their targets (often out of cover), and have flimsy armor. It's not going to be tough for your opponent to take them down before they can get a proper hit in, or at best, only until after they get a single hit in before dying.

The hellhound proper isn't SO bad, but it's still not great, especially since only a certain class of targets really fears it, and even then there's still things your opponent can do (last time I was up against a torrent weapon, I spread my guys out in such a way where only 4 could be hit at a time). As for the devil dog, you're paying a LOT of points for what basically equates to a single melta shot, and a banewolf is an absurd waste of points, what with the fact that it has a gun that has a range of 0". If you're up against really dumb opponents, it could work fine, but good luck getting many hits in with it, even assuming it survives...

I guess I could see using a proper hellhound as a defensive weapon, using its speed to be able to move back and forth quickly behind your own troops/chimeras, but even then, I don't know. I think I'd rather just take artillery.

Which one is the chemical weapon tank? I've long considered whether to run 2 hellhounds or 2 of that one.

the banewolf.

it's terrible.

 Ailaros wrote:
the banewolf.

it's terrible.

Without torrent, you have to get pretty close to use that sweet template.

How so? Someone was describing to me how you could run it full forward and still fire the hull-mounted weapon and the turret weapon since it counted as a defensive weapon or something. Is that not true or did that change with the switch to 6th edition.

 Diezel wrote:

LMFAO!!!:

So, this is the order in which things have to happen to make the banewolf able to get a solid hit in.

1.) you have to put the banewolf at the front of your deployment zone, or it will never get there in time. You have to be careful about cover too, as an immobilized result will basically throw it off the board, and driving around it will waste forward movement, and thus valuable time.

2.) your opponent can't shoot at it on turn 1.

3.) you have to gun the vehicle basically straight forward. It's going to take you at least two turns to get the template into range for a proper hit, so once again, be careful around terrain (which, in case you missed it, means you're going to have a hard time getting cover saves.

4.) despite your tank being in melta gun range of your opponent, your opponent can't shoot at it again on turn 2.

5.) your opponent has to bunch up his infantry in a teardrop shape, pointing in the direction of the banewolf. If he spreads out, or lines up perpendicular to the tank, you're looking at perhaps 3 hits with the template, tops.

6.) Despite being in both melta range and close combat range, your opponent still has to refuse to attack the banewolf on turn 3.

7.) Finally, on turn 4, you've got a vehicle that's going to be able to swing up along the side of things and actually get some proper hits off. Of course, there will only be a LOT of hits if your opponent doesn't spread out, and the banewolf is still useless against vehicles and anything in a transport.

Unless all of these things happen, your banewolf is never going to do any damage, much less any serious damage. Your opponent has PLENTY of opportunity of disrupting this exacting series of events.

The only other possible way you could possibly have anything useful happen is if your opponent drove their own transports straight at your banewolf only to have them blow up roughly 12" in front of the tank, but once again, if your opponent is that clueless, you're probably winning anyways.

Why wouldn't any of that affect the Hellhound?

Because the hellhound has torrent. Yes, you still need to deploy it forward and move it up quickly (which is why I'm not very keen on regular hellhounds), but it has torrent, which is a HUGE difference.

For the banewolf to get more than 1 hit with its template, the vehicle has to start the turn about 14" away from what it intends to attack. With the hellhound, you can rack up the same kind of hits by starting from 27" away, meaning it gets to attack much earlier. Furthermore, the hellhound can attack things from far enough away that meltaguns can't even get into range to attack it back, while the banewolf has to basically run over whatever it wants to attack, making it an easy target for melta-range meltaguns and for close combat.

Also, torrent makes it a lot easier to do more damage. In the case of a banewolf, the vehicle has to be facing parallel to its targets to really rack up the hits. That means driving up and then hitting them on the side, which is pretty tough to do against a skilled opponent. Meanwhile, the hellhound can use torrent to draw a line of fire perpendicular to the vehicle, or at whatever odd angle you want, meaning that your opponent's displacement and positioning matters a LOT less.

 Ailaros wrote:
So, this is the order in which things have to happen to make the banewolf able to get a solid hit in.

1.) CREEEEEED!!!!!!!!

There ya go

 Exergy wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
You know, my way of scaling things has been changing over time. I really don't consider it an anti-AV12 weapon anymore unless it's S8 Ap1, S9 Ap2, or S10.

After half a rules edition of trying to peel paint with autocannons and missile launchers, I just want to shoot AV12 and have it just friggin die already.

its true, Dark Lances are terrible at killing AV12

IG doesn't get Dark lances. We get autocannons, meltaguns, plasma, lascannons, and missile launchers as our only serious infantry carried antitank weapons.

Meltas kill all armor up close.
Plasma kills light armor at fairly close.
Autocannons kill light armor at range.
Lascannons kill heavier armor at range.
Missiles fail at everything.

I guarantee you that if IG had access to lances, we would spam the hell out of them, but we don't. When looking at Anti tank from a purely IG perspective, Ailaros pretty much has it covered. It better be so strong that it's always penning, or have an AP bonus so that when it does pen, it can actually do damage. Hence why a lot of people are getting frustrated with autocannons (like myself) They don't have a high enough strength to really cut through armor most of the time, and by the time you've got enough glances to kill something, said unit has either done its job or eaten half your army's shots on the first turn, both of which are bad.

yeah, I get it. I was merely noting that the DL, the anti tank weapon of choice for DE, isnt even very good at killing AV12 which is what Ailaros was saying. Missile launchers are worse than dark lances, so they arent good at AV12 either. Lascannons and melta(outside melta range) are better than DL, so they are ok at killing av12.

Oh wow I'm sorry I had no idea you were agreeing with me.

I thought you were being snarky

Wow in that case yeah we totally agree, my bad!

TheCaptain wrote:
Some math for you, though.

Lasgun guardsman costs 5 points. Kills a Space Marine 5% of the time with one shot.

Plasmagun guardsman costs 20 points. Kills a Space Marine 41% of the time with one shot.

So no, I'm definitely right. Math favors the plasmagun.

Wow, 1 plasma gunner is only 21% more effective than 4 guardsmen with lasguns against a marine. That feels really depressing for some reason. It sounds about right now that I think about it, but that just feels really weak for a gun that is basically firing a blast equal in temperature to the surface of the sun at you

 Ailaros wrote:
the banewolf.

it's terrible.

I've got to agree, and Ailaros explains why superbly. On the otherhand I am a fan of the stock HH they work well for me even against MEQ, but I mainly use them as other have stated for objective clearing and cover busters. They take a good head for reading people's tactics and utilizing cover to make them thoroughly survivable but if you've got that and a place in your force for them give them a whirl!

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Wow, 1 plasma gunner is only 21% more effective than 4 guardsmen with lasguns against a marine. That feels really depressing for some reason. It sounds about right now that I think about it, but that just feels really weak for a gun that is basically firing a blast equal in temperature to the surface of the sun at you

I see it as doubly effective, but very true.

I guess that just shows the power of the almighty lasgun!

They're better against terminators, but yeah. Plasma guns are anti-infantry weapons. So are lasguns.

Obviously you're getting a little more with plasma (SOME anti-vehicle, better against MCs, etc.), but this better quantifies why I intuitively like meltaguns. Melta does things that lasguns never well. Meanwhile, plasma is sort of in the same group as... well... all the other special weapons - upgraded versions of things that lasguns do.

Thank you for your thorough ecplanation of things. I had no idea there was even such a thing as torrent. I really need to read the rulebook one of these days.

Well, hellhounds always had the torrent rule, it's just that now there are enough other weapons that fire like hellhounds, that they had to come up with a universal special rule for it. Said name is torrent.

Banewolves just fire like a regular turret heavy flamer.