dereksatkinson wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
Who cares if people want to vent on this? Who exactly is it hurting that you feel the need to keep telling people to stop?

It spills into every single thread on this forum and the whining makes it so people new to the hobby get turned off. The negativity is not good for the hobby.

Maybe without new people GW will realize that THEY are what's ruining the hobby?

So a jerk online shouts down a 13 year old who comes to an online forum and it's GW's fault?

Why's the jerk unhappy?

dereksatkinson wrote:
The reason why it's one of the hottest topics on dakka is because the same people keep posting the same crap over and over again.

Well correct them with considered, fact based points rather than accusing them of hating. Then address any of their counterpoints rather than shifting the goalposts.

We know you feel GW is fine and doing nothing wrong, and we've pointed out why we disagree. Address those points, don't attack users.

 azreal13 wrote:

Why's the jerk unhappy?

Most likely because he has low self esteem from something completely unrelated. I've known enough people who play this game to know that many people use it as a way to bolster their ego.

dereksatkinson wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
Who cares if people want to vent on this? Who exactly is it hurting that you feel the need to keep telling people to stop?

It spills into every single thread on this forum and the whining makes it so people new to the hobby get turned off. The negativity is not good for the hobby.

Maybe without new people GW will realize that THEY are what's ruining the hobby?

So a jerk online shouts down a 13 year old who comes to an online forum and it's GW's fault?

It is definitely GW's fault if a "jerk online" posts a rant about how you have to pay hundreds of dollars to get started and end up playing a game with gakky rules written by people who don't give a feth about playtesting or balance, and warns said 13-year old about it and recommends they start a better game run by a company that actually gives a damn about its customers.

The bottom line here is that GW has *caused* this toxic behavior because they price things as though they were gold, thinks that they have no competition and that they are the center of the universe, and basically gives their customers the finger if they do anything other than buy what they're told is the next big thing.

I'm not even going to touch your nonsense about anyone who complains must be some low self esteem basement dweller. Not only is that highly rude and insulting, but also baseless and has no place on this forum.

dereksatkinson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Why's the jerk unhappy?

Most likely because he has low self esteem from something completely unrelated. I've known enough people who play this game to know that many people use it as a way to bolster their ego.

And not for the myriad reasons that keep getting brought up and have nothing to do with the jerk but consistent views on why they feel slighted by the company?

You do realise the most vocal members on here have made articulate posts detailing their issues, and are more positive about companies and games that they feel are better, and that most are still pretty active gamers but have largely moved on from GW apart from a morbid curiosity as to how they'll collapse? And that most of these people would actually like GW to succeed, so are more frustrated than anything else about how badly it's being run?

dereksatkinson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Why's the jerk unhappy?

Most likely because he has low self esteem from something completely unrelated. I've known enough people who play this game to know that many people use it as a way to bolster their ego.

Again with the hypocrisy. I really can't take your complaints about being abused seriously when every other comment you make contains some sort of insult.

Enough of the pseudo psycho analysing please, it's extremely rude to insinuate that other people you disagree with have self esteem issues.

WayneTheGame wrote:

It is definitely GW's fault if a "jerk online" posts a rant about how you have to pay hundreds of dollars to get started and end up playing a game with gakky rules written by people who don't give a feth about playtesting or balance, and warns said 13-year old about it and recommends they start a better game run by a company that actually gives a damn about its customers.

The bottom line here is that GW has *caused* this toxic behavior because they price things as though they were gold, thinks that they have no competition and that they are the center of the universe, and basically gives their customers the finger if they do anything other than buy what they're told is the next big thing.

ah.. so GW causes people to act like jerks. Next thing you are going to tell me that spoons make people fat.

dereksatkinson wrote:


It spills into every single thread on this forum and the whining makes it so people new to the hobby get turned off. The negativity is not good for the hobby.

I have to say this, the negativity is brought on by GW themselves. Every company earns their good or bad reputation. It is rarely "thrust" on them by a community. I follow quite a few other forums dedicated to other game systems and nowhere is there as much negativity about a game as their is with GW. And this is NOT just a Dakka issue. The negativity is everywhere - here, on Warseer, in the blogsphere, on YouTube. You can barely go anywhere now without people complaining about how ludicrous (not expensive, but an absolute rip-off) GW pricing has become. How half-baked their rules are versus their competition. And about the extremely noticable drop in product quality over the last six months.

When you are a company charging a massive premium putting out sub-par product compared to your competition, treating your customers like a bunch of drooling idiots who will buy anything you pout out because you think they are too stupid to know any better, you deserve the negativity you earn. TSR earned it in their final years and it put them out of business. Now GW is pratically repeating the same stupid attitude and decisions that sank TSR.

Lastly, you mentioned how complaints about pricing have been there for 20+ years and will be their for 20 more. Sorry, but I have been involved in the GW HHHobby for most of that time and never have the complaints about pricing been as vocal or common as they have been the last couple of years. You can only keep increasing pricing 20% more than annual inflation every year until you just plain reach the point people can't afford a product even if they want it. GW has reached that point and it is showing in spades in their financials. In addition, they show absolutely no clue that they even recognize pricing as part of the problem as all indicators since the beginning of this years show they are just going to keep raising prices until, eventually, no one can afford their products anymore.

ONCE AGAIN - RULE #1 IS NOT OPTIONAL!

FINAL General in thread warning - suspensions will follow from here on in.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Why's the jerk unhappy?

Most likely because he has low self esteem from something completely unrelated. I've known enough people who play this game to know that many people use it as a way to bolster their ego.

Again with the hypocrisy. I really can't take your complaints about being abused seriously when every other comment you make contains some sort of insult.

As long as you aren't acting like a jerk to 13 year old kids and using GW as the reason, I don't see why you'd be offended.

Herzlos wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Why's the jerk unhappy?

Most likely because he has low self esteem from something completely unrelated. I've known enough people who play this game to know that many people use it as a way to bolster their ego.

And not for the myriad reasons that keep getting brought up and have nothing to do with the jerk but consistent views on why they feel slighted by the company?

Nah, can't be that.

If someone has a problem with GW, clearly it is because they're damaged, and no issue can possibly be valid or justified, and no emotional response is allowed, even if the person feels that something that represents thousands of hours of time investment and potentially thousands in financial is having the enjoyment it brought taken away.

No sir.

dereksatkinson wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

It is definitely GW's fault if a "jerk online" posts a rant about how you have to pay hundreds of dollars to get started and end up playing a game with gakky rules written by people who don't give a feth about playtesting or balance, and warns said 13-year old about it and recommends they start a better game run by a company that actually gives a damn about its customers.

The bottom line here is that GW has *caused* this toxic behavior because they price things as though they were gold, thinks that they have no competition and that they are the center of the universe, and basically gives their customers the finger if they do anything other than buy what they're told is the next big thing.

ah.. so GW causes people to act like jerks. Next thing you are going to tell me that spoons make people fat.

Most of the negativity towards GW *is* their own fault. Insanely high pricing, little or no care towards balance, gutting almost everything other than pure sales.. it's no wonder why there's a lot of negativity towards them, and it's not just disgruntled people with no reasons. Almost all of the complaints are legitimate, which is why this discussion exists in the first place.

You don't see half as much negativity towards any other tabletop company. Privateer Press, for example, has people who don't like some things but it's nowhere near the level of vehemence you see towards GW, and also almost all of the anti-GW sentiment is from former GW customers. Generally when ex-customers raise complaints, they tend to be pretty valid and it's a shortsighted and foolish person who pays them no heed.

dereksatkinson wrote:
Who is saying they need special protection? I am pointing out that you guys are beating a dead horse and since you don't like hearing that, you call on the mods to protect and censor my comments.

Protection? Responding to your post I had MY comments censored for the first time ever... let us say it may not be as targeted as you may think... (yes, mods, you were fair in the deletion, but more so with Derek )

Do you not see how making thousands of negative posts about GW isn't a complete waste of time and energy? If you are unsatisfied, then move on to another product and be happy. That's how a normal person would act. Constantly bashing a company that you choose not to do business with isn't rational.

Got confused a bit with the double negative but the "move-on" is a bit simplistic: many people have a rather large investment in material from GW with the understanding that in the past they were a whole different animal from what they are now.

Irrational is choosing to reward bad behavior, a choice not to do business (hitting them in the pocketbook) is the most telling form of protest a consumer can do.

What can be considered irrational is the hope of what we write here may have any impact on GW whatsoever.

 azreal13 wrote:

If someone has a problem with GW, clearly it is because they're damaged, and no issue can possibly be valid or justified, and no emotional response is allowed, even if the person feels that something that represents thousands of hours of time investment and potentially thousands in financial is having the enjoyment it brought taken away.

No sir.

If you are disappointed with your purchase, a rational person would act accordingly. They wouldn't sit online complaining all day for several years. They would find an alternative and move on. They wouldn't be obsessively bashing the product for 6+ months. That takes a special kind of psychosis. I don't care what the product is, a normal person would move on.

If someone has a minor complaint and has constructive criticism, I can see discussions popping up from time to time on how to make a product better. I don't see nearly as much of that as I see the former.

dereksatkinson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

If someone has a problem with GW, clearly it is because they're damaged, and no issue can possibly be valid or justified, and no emotional response is allowed, even if the person feels that something that represents thousands of hours of time investment and potentially thousands in financial is having the enjoyment it brought taken away.

No sir.

If you are disappointed with your purchase, a rational person would act accordingly. They wouldn't sit online complaining all day for several years. They would find an alternative and move on. They wouldn't be obsessively bashing the product for 6+ months. That takes a special kind of psychosis. I don't care what the product is, a normal person would move on.

If someone has a minor complaint and has constructive criticism, I can see discussions popping up from time to time on how to make a product better. I don't see nearly as much of that as I see the former.

And far more people are moving on than complaining on here. It's pretty well reflected in the reports, and that's the problem.

 Talizvar wrote:
Irrational is choosing to reward bad behavior, a choice not to do business (hitting them in the pocketbook) is the most telling form of protest a consumer can do.

I 100% agree. The people that don't like the way they are doing business definitely shouldn't support it. If they like their models and want to keep them great!

I do question why those same people who don't like the game, models and GW would constantly post negative comments about them though. That doesn't seem rational. I mean it's literally thousands of negative posts by some users.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
And far more people are moving on than complaining on here. It's pretty well reflected in the reports, and that's the problem.

because they had a 10% drop in revenue one quarter? That's a fairly common occurrence for niche retailers.

dereksatkinson wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
And far more people are moving on than complaining on here. It's pretty well reflected in the reports, and that's the problem.

because they had a 10% drop in revenue one quarter? That's a fairly common occurrence for niche retailers.

a 10% drop in one half, and a 30% drop in revenue, whilst using the fastest release rate they've ever done including a new release of their biggest seller and several expansions.

Every published figure everywhere points to a reduction in player base, and is backed up by most anecdotes. You've so far provided nothing that contradicts this evidence beyond trying to claim it's biased on invalid, with nothing to back those statements up either.

Have you got a citation for the claim that a 10% drop in revenue is common for niche retailers with about $200m annual revenue?

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

Why's the jerk unhappy?

Most likely because he has low self esteem from something completely unrelated. I've known enough people who play this game to know that many people use it as a way to bolster their ego.

Again with the hypocrisy. I really can't take your complaints about being abused seriously when every other comment you make contains some sort of insult.

As long as you aren't acting like a jerk to 13 year old kids and using GW as the reason, I don't see why you'd be offended.

I don't. But at the same time, you are making broad sweeping generalisations and tarring everyone with the same brush who dislike the way GW operates, and therefore you're insulting me too . In my personal experience, people have been jerks to me when I express my opinion that...

GW's miniatures are too expensive for me to reasonably afford, but I like the games and I'm invested in the Lore and Universe, so I look for ways to cut costs by converting 3rd party minis and buying 2nd hand minis off eBay.

One guy on Facebook accused me of being disloyal to GW and the LOTR community, when I said that I'm converting Gripping Beast plastic Anglo Saxons to use as Rohirrim.

Besides, what 13 year olds? I don't know any 13 year old newbies who can afford GW's games at today's prices. I certainly have afforded the game when I was 13 at these prices. Do you at least accept that the huge start up costs for a new player to start 40K pose a significant barrier to new blood coming into the Hobby games? ( GW =/= a Hobby. GW =/= Miniature Wargaming, it's just one aspect of it).

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
Irrational is choosing to reward bad behavior, a choice not to do business (hitting them in the pocketbook) is the most telling form of protest a consumer can do.

I 100% agree. The people that don't like the way they are doing business definitely shouldn't support it. If they like their models and want to keep them great!

I do question why those same people who don't like the game, models and GW would constantly post negative comments about them though. That doesn't seem rational. I mean it's literally thousands of negative posts by some users.

I think everyone here at one time loved the GW 40k universe, the models and GW. Many, like myself, were collecting their stuff over ten to twenty years. However, when the company you supported for so long then suddenly turns into something where you are seen as nothing more than a wallet to fleece, it is going to have the reactions you are currently seeing.

People want GW to change. People want GW to come to their senses. People want GW to READ these and other forums to see what is pissing off so many customers and what they can do to fix it. However, people are seeing GW retreat behind their moat and into their fortress, and completely ignoring that the enemy (their competition) is at the gates. They are seeing GW have an attitude towards their long-term customers that TSR had in the final years (that we are all a bunch of stinky, drooling, uneducated, basement dwellers who only live to give them our money). Sounds extreme, but even former GW employees who had been privy to the pricing meetings have mentioned this is EXACTLY what they think of their customers and why they think they can keep sticking it to them in pricing.

Simply put, long time supporters feel betrayed. And they are voicing their dissatisfaction. The point many should be worried about is when those of us dissatisfied finally stop posting, we'll have moved on - permanently. And that is not good for the hobby either.

Herzlos wrote:
Have you got a citation for the claim that a 10% drop in revenue is common for niche retailers with about $200m annual revenue?

Do you have access to IBD(investors business daily)? Maybe a copy of Barron's? In those types of publications (which I am not going to break copyright on) you can see revenue breakdowns for companies on a quarterly basis. You can see those numbers for thousands of companies. If you live in a relatively good size city, they should have copies on the shelves of a Barnes and Noble.

Point is though.. 10% really isn't uncommon of a drop for a topline number like revenue.

dereksatkinson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

If someone has a problem with GW, clearly it is because they're damaged, and no issue can possibly be valid or justified, and no emotional response is allowed, even if the person feels that something that represents thousands of hours of time investment and potentially thousands in financial is having the enjoyment it brought taken away.

No sir.

If you are disappointed with your purchase, a rational person would act accordingly. They wouldn't sit online complaining all day for several years. They would find an alternative and move on. They wouldn't be obsessively bashing the product for 6+ months. That takes a special kind of psychosis. I don't care what the product is, a normal person would move on.

If someone has a minor complaint and has constructive criticism, I can see discussions popping up from time to time on how to make a product better. I don't see nearly as much of that as I see the former.

I'm not sure whether you're surreptitiously trying to refer to me or no, but I'll take myself as an example.

I do not hate GW. I do not love GW. I praise things I deem worthy, I criticise those things I feel warrant criticism. Simple.

If the nature of my posts seems to come across as biased against GW, then that speaks not to my attitude, but to my reaction to GW products and policies.

I haven't moved on because I still play 40K, and I enjoy most games. I'm not, however, so boneheaded as to not to be able to recognise the many failings in the game, nor be frustrated that GW seem unwilling to invest the small amount of time and money it would take to affect great positive change.

You won't see me rail against prices so much, because I own plenty of models, and I enjoy seeking out and acquiring alternate models from third parties or eBay bargains should I feel compelled to add units. (I'm currently painting up a Blood Throne/Skull Cannon I picked up on eBay for £11 because I think Chariots are good in 7th - user sold it NOS, but with no pic, so it went for a song) so I've largely moved on from GW models and so I'm mostly immune.

But, to come to the meat of my post, at almost 25 years service, I'm still probably towards the lower end in terms of time invested in the wargaming hobby, especially as 10 years or so of that I wasn't involved in the gaming side at all, and just kept in touch through Black Library novels and chatting to friends who still played.

If I'd been playing for as long and as often as some of the posters here, and had invested the thousands of hours and thousands of (insert local currency here) into amassing large and/or multiple armies into one game, and then the people who were responsible for that game's legacy threw it all out of the window in a fairly clumsy attempt to prop up their financials because they'd squandered all the potential and opportunities they'd had to make a fortune out of turning it into the awesome product it could have been for want of a little more investment of time and money, and a slightly different approach to how it related to its fans and customers?

If someone tried to imply that, regarding a product I clearly loved enough to invest the thousands of hours and local currency into, I wasn't rational in being upset that something I once held in high regard had been laid low, apparently by the selfish and short sighted actions of a few people? If that person in fact implied I suffered from some sort of mental illness?

Well, I'd be quite angry at that person.

I might even shout.

Fortunately, that isn't me. I can't, however, speak for others ITT.

dereksatkinson wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
Irrational is choosing to reward bad behavior, a choice not to do business (hitting them in the pocketbook) is the most telling form of protest a consumer can do.

I 100% agree. The people that don't like the way they are doing business definitely shouldn't support it. If they like their models and want to keep them great!

Just trying to make the point that people who no longer buy their stuff can still be "allowed" to complain since they are waiting for the results of their embargo to influence GW to do what they want.

Makes me wish I started a "dare" to the dakka community to see if they could hold off until after June to buy the BRB... it at least would move into the realm of action rather than complaining.

Well, looking at the future of GW, not many buttons they can push for the next financials in 2015, any kind of "win" you can see them pulling out for this year?

 Wayshuba wrote:
I think everyone here at one time loved the GW 40k universe, the models and GW. Many, like myself, were collecting their stuff over ten to twenty years. However, when the company you supported for so long then suddenly turns into something where you are seen as nothing more than a wallet to fleece, it is going to have the reactions you are currently seeing.

I've been playing just as long as you have. I posted on a thread just like this 8 years ago on this forum. This isn't something new.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/83375.page#83954

Now.. go through that thread and tell me this isn't the exact same discussion people were having in 2006.. The differences are very minor.

 Wayshuba wrote:
Simply put, long time supporters feel betrayed. And they are voicing their dissatisfaction. The point many should be worried about is when those of us dissatisfied finally stop posting, we'll have moved on - permanently. And that is not good for the hobby either.

Or they come back an edition or two later.

Hah!

What's funny is the post of yours you linked to, you predict, by and large, what GW would do in the coming few years, quite correctly.

What you don't mention is what happens when they reach the end of that road and it hasn't really worked.

Which is essentially where we are now.

 azreal13 wrote:
Hah!

What's funny is the post of yours you linked to, you predict, by and large, what GW would do in the coming few years, quite correctly.

What you don't mention is what happens when they reach the end of that road and it hasn't really worked.

Which is essentially where we are now.

Yeah, I feel like we (Derek-yourself and I) are largely in agreement with the trends GW has and probably will continue to take, it just seems the eventual outcome is where we differ.

EDIT: clarifying I'm not trying to speak for azreal

dereksatkinson wrote:


I've been playing just as long as you have. I posted on a thread just like this 8 years ago on this forum. This isn't something new.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/83375.page#83954

Now.. go through that thread and tell me this isn't the exact same discussion people were having in 2006.. The differences are very minor.

Here is the difference I was talking about. That thread is three pages. Not a whole lot of discussion then.

Today, this thread is already over 30 pages and, while I won't link it here, a thread on another forum on GW pricing in now climbing close to the 900 page range.

See the difference? Three pages of discussion in 2006, HUNDREDS of pages of discussion in 2014. Seems like a major change in the number of people dissatisfied to me.

 azreal13 wrote:
Hah!

What's funny is the post of yours you linked to, you predict, by and large, what GW would do in the coming few years, quite correctly.

What you don't mention is what happens when they reach the end of that road and it hasn't really worked.

Which is essentially where we are now.

Well. their stock price is up over 100% since then and they have paid out a ton of dividends over that period so I think the company has done just fine. The question going forward is how much competition survives the next recession. I really do think a few of these gaming companies have overextended themselves and aren't running nearly as lean as GW is. And yes, I do believe GW is running things pretty lean right now. Much leaner than they used to which was the right thing to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wayshuba wrote:
Here is the difference I was talking about. That thread is three pages. Not a whole lot of discussion then.

Today, this thread is already over 30 pages and, while I won't link it here, a thread on another forum on GW pricing in now climbing close to the 900 page range.

See the difference? Three pages of discussion in 2006, HUNDREDS of pages of discussion in 2014. Seems like a major change in the number of people dissatisfied to me.

I didn't post on those threads but it was pretty much the consensus opinion. 900 page threads shouldn't exist on any forum and is a testament to beating a dead horse by a group of people to prove a point. Not an accurate representation of how the community feels as a whole.

You really do struggle to accept people thinking different to you don't you Derek?

900 page thread representative of a groundswell of negative emotion amongst the customer base?

"Nah-uh, it's a bunch of haters beating a dead horse!"

GW's results show their profits increased faster than their turnover which broadly indicates they became more efficient, over the past few years.

The big changeover came in 2009 to 2010 when they clearly dumped a crapton of costs boosting their profit nearly £10 M on almost no revenue increase.

Well, there's a relatively simple way to test the situation.

Count the number of discreet posters complaining about pricing in various threads on the topic in 2006 and compare it to the number of discreet posters making similar complaints in threads today.

While this will not tell us about the percentage of customers who are dissatisfied, it would let us know whether or not there was an absolute increase or decrease in the number of actual complainants.

dereksatkinson wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

If someone has a problem with GW, clearly it is because they're damaged, and no issue can possibly be valid or justified, and no emotional response is allowed, even if the person feels that something that represents thousands of hours of time investment and potentially thousands in financial is having the enjoyment it brought taken away.

No sir.

If you are disappointed with your purchase, a rational person would act accordingly. They wouldn't sit online complaining all day for several years. They would find an alternative and move on. They wouldn't be obsessively bashing the product for 6+ months. That takes a special kind of psychosis. I don't care what the product is, a normal person would move on.

If someone has a minor complaint and has constructive criticism, I can see discussions popping up from time to time on how to make a product better. I don't see nearly as much of that as I see the former.

Derek: You are assuming that the customer is OK with abandoning sunk costs.

@Keezus: Very good point. People get emotionally attached to things because of prior investment of time/money/emotion/whatever, and thereafter often have a hard time making rational decisions in the current environment.

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/03/25/the-sunk-cost-fallacy/

There's also the assumption that it is a voluntary thing.

I may be ok with everything GW does and produces, if all my friends who play feel differently and quit, however, where does that leave me?

@Azreal: Your friends are just haters. Real friends would never abandon a sinking ship and leave you on board alone... They should sink with you!

Oh, I've still got plenty of opponents, I was just hypothesising!

With job changes, relocations, people starting uni etc, as well as an apparent recent drop off in interest, it could very well be me by the New Year though.

It only took 32 pages to get to this point from both sides.

Perhaps the more appropriate title for this thread is the future of tabletop gaming. I don't see much reason to defend GW, and I say this as a person who still buys and paints GW models. I plan to buy 7th edition when the rules only book comes out, and I plan on playing the game with a few friends that have been doing models for a decade or so at least.

But business is all about recruiting new customers, and that is what I can't see happening in masse for GW. My viewpoint is based on my own experience. I don't read financial reports, but I do bring something of an outsiders perspective based on the fact that I shelved my army about 10 years ago and only in the past year started painting again. This is what has changed.

Since getting back into 40k, I've had a lot of conversations with my original crew about getting their models out and having a game sometime. The attitude they take this with is similar to offering a recovered alcoholic an invite to a keg party with all his old friends. There is a glimmer of want in his eye, but a more powerful restraint against participating. They've all reminisced a little bit about the game, but no one has actually taken any steps to get involved again.

So I was left to go to the FLGS in my area. There are 2 main ones that I go to, and no official GW store, which from what I understand is becoming more and more the case here in the US.

You go in, and everything is as it was 10 years ago, except now there's an equal presence for Warmachine/Hordes. There are still gamers in the back at any point in time, and they mostly play card games. Not much change.

But here is the chink in GW's armor, IMO. When you speak to retailers that do not work for GW, they are going to steer you towards warmachine, infinity, or some other mineature game. Almost all the staff I've spoken to HAS 40k armies, and they'll help you with any questions, but in any conversation of any weight at all, they almost ALWAYS bring up the fact that they either no longer play 40k at all, or very rarely play it and then pitch you on a game that they like better.

I'm not sure if this is simply because retailers have a better profit margin from competitors or what, but this is what I noticed from my first several visits to the FLGS. Mostly during conversations about painting because I needed help re buying my old colors with new names that are awful, by the way.

So anyway a while goes by and I have a decent urge to go get my ass kicked in a real game. I had asked if many people still came to the open game night on thursdays. Of course, they said. We have a couple dozen people that show up, usually not all at once but a good group. Awesome.

I show up for one with my army, and guess what? Not a single 40k or warhammer game to be had. Its ALL other games. I ended up going out of my way to the further store because they have roughly 7 people there that do play 40k on a thursday night, and you get 20% discount for playing there. Why play anywhere else if you're going to play this game?

But the numbers are evident of an obvious tide shift for this market, and I'm not saying GW goes under tomorrow or net year, or ever, but when you see what little incentive a retailer has to pitch 40k as compared to other games, and you see the popularity shifting from one side to the other, its just undeniable.

It is extremely hard to get people to justify starting this game. I have tried and failed a half a dozen times in the past year. GW seems to think they are the Rolex watch of mineatures, and I do believe their minis look the best. I love painting them, but its just not enough IMO to keep the king of the mountain status long term.

The tide of new customers seems to be more and more open to other options and this is not a good thing for games workshop, and most unfortunately players such as myself who have so much time alone invested in building an army that people look at and say, "wow, I want one of those!" That's what got me into the hobby was seeing my cousin's amazing painted models and asking him how I could start my own. Back then, a box of 5 marines was 12.50.

I don't want to go on a price rant, but honestly the idea that I could have started this hobby at the age I started it at 14 some odd years ago is a bleak prospect.

My point is, IF GW is alienating LONG TERM customers, which it seems to me they are, it is even worse alienation for potential new customers. And in a world where the competition is out there working really hard to displace you, you just can't afford the type of complacency we see from GW. GW is only increasing the quality of their models, NOT the overall value of what the customer gets and it can only take you so far.

dereksatkinson wrote:


If you are disappointed with your purchase, a rational person would act accordingly. They wouldn't sit online complaining all day for several years. They would find an alternative and move on. They wouldn't be obsessively bashing the product for 6+ months. That takes a special kind of psychosis. I don't care what the product is, a normal person would move on.

Perhaps you can look at your own post and apply it to yourself.

Bullockist wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:


If you are disappointed with your purchase, a rational person would act accordingly. They wouldn't sit online complaining all day for several years. They would find an alternative and move on. They wouldn't be obsessively bashing the product for 6+ months. That takes a special kind of psychosis. I don't care what the product is, a normal person would move on.

Perhaps you can look at your own post and apply it to yourself.

You know, if you look at the thread from 2006 and this current thread, it appears there are only two posters that have appeared in both.

Saldiven wrote:
You know, if you look at the thread from 2006 and this current thread, it appears there are only two posters that have appeared in both.

To be fair... as a poster from Olde Dakka, few of the prolific posters from yesteryear are still active... Migsula, ArchMagos Alchemeys, Snord, Drew Riggio, Hivefleet and Waaagh Gonads have all but disappeared into the mists of time.

Saldiven wrote:
You know, if you look at the thread from 2006 and this current thread, it appears there are only two posters that have appeared in both.

And it was equally as biased.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 keezus wrote:

To be fair... as a poster from Olde Dakka, few of the prolific posters from yesteryear are still active... Migsula, ArchMagos Alchemeys, Snord, Drew Riggio, Hivefleet and Waaagh Gonads have all but disappeared into the mists of time.

Or picked up new screennames

 keezus wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
You know, if you look at the thread from 2006 and this current thread, it appears there are only two posters that have appeared in both.

To be fair... as a poster from Olde Dakka, few of the prolific posters from yesteryear are still active... Migsula, ArchMagos Alchemeys, Snord, Drew Riggio, Hivefleet and Waaagh Gonads have all but disappeared into the mists of time.

I was merely wondering how indicative it might be of a group of people who did, in fact, actually move onto other things.

You know, this might sound odd, but I actually kind of miss Mauleed's abrasiveness. I don't think there has been anyone on Dakka since him that could so consistently rub people the wrong way, and simultaneously be so unapologetic about it.

 keezus wrote:

Saldiven wrote:
You know, if you look at the thread from 2006 and this current thread, it appears there are only two posters that have appeared in both.

To be fair... as a poster from Olde Dakka, few of the prolific posters from yesteryear are still active... Migsula, ArchMagos Alchemeys, Snord, Drew Riggio, Hivefleet and Waaagh Gonads have all but disappeared into the mists of time.

I remember all of those names

I think that over time though people eventually realize that GW isn't going to listen to anything, and just give up.

Kilkrazy wrote:GW's results show their profits increased faster than their turnover which broadly indicates they became more efficient, over the past few years.

The big changeover came in 2009 to 2010 when they clearly dumped a crapton of costs boosting their profit nearly £10 M on almost no revenue increase.

We're going to likely see this again in the report coming up. They just finished a major restructuring of their administration and the closing of regional HQs and the consolidation of administration in Nottingham. The half year that just finished is the first one where they will be showing the full cost saves from that restructuring. If they report their number of employees by department like they have in previous reports, I think we'll see the admin numbers come down in proportion to the previous declines in manufacturing and sales numbers.

Revenue will be down for the year, but profit will likely be alright. This is one of the effects of GW's pricing strategy. If revenue = units sold x price and you increase price and units sold goes down, all the while revenue stays flat, you're making and selling less units. This provides the opportunity to cut staff, close departments, distribute and ship less goods and generally have less costs. It's how you manage a shrinking business. The funny thing though, is that it will be passed off as a good thing. The opposite of a growing company expanding it's market and market share will be passed off in the notes in the financial report as being "increasingly efficient" or "protecting our margins" or "reaping the rewards of our restructuring plan."

---

To comment on this idea that it's irrational to discuss a company you are not currently a customer of, all I can say is that it's okay for people to find discussing things enjoyable, even if you don't. I am a former GW customer and am waiting patiently for them to release a product or game that I might want. And in the mean time, I find the business side of things interesting. If I was a member on a digital audio forum and stopped buying Apple products in favour of something else (and maybe a new iPhone will one day be the type of product I want) I very well might still comment in a thread on the business side of Apple because I find it interesting.

There is nothing irrational or hateful or negative about that. So Derek's group attack on thread participants is totally baseless. And attacks like that are often the last resort of people who don't have any evidence to support their assertions.

 frozenwastes wrote:

To comment on this idea that it's irrational to discuss a company you are not currently a customer of, all I can say is that it's okay for people to find discussing things enjoyable, even if you don't. I am a former GW customer and am waiting patiently for them to release a product or game that I might want. And in the mean time, I find the business side of things interesting. If I was a member on a digital audio forum and stopped buying Apple products in favour of something else (and maybe a new iPhone will one day be the type of product I want) I very well might still comment in a thread on the business side of Apple because I find it interesting.

There is nothing irrational or hateful or negative about that. So Derek's group attack on thread participants is totally baseless. And attacks like that are often the last resort of people who don't have any evidence to support their assertions.

It's more than that. GW is a big part of this industry. If you are interested in this industry, at all, you should be clued into what is going on with GW. It would be like following what Apple does even if you dislike Apple and are an avid Android user. What Apple does in the smartphone market is terribly important (as well as other markets). It just is.

If GW falls apart, that will have a huge impact on the market. GW's prices and business practices influence the market and the behavior of competitors. GW's IP enforcement polices have long had a significant impact on the market.

Simply put, GW is a big fish in a small pond. If you care about what is going on in that pond, you should have an eye on what's happening with that big fish.

weeble1000 wrote:
Simply put, GW is a big fish in a small pond. If you care about what is going on in that pond, you should have an eye on what's happening with that big fish.

A very good point. And well said.

The next time someone realizes that they have no evidence for the things they say and the moving of the goal posts starts to fail and they bring up this last resort idea that it's irrational to talk about GW if you're no longer their customer, I'll link back to your post.

rich1231 wrote:
GW wanted and still want to follow a selective distribution model, similar to that followed by Luxury brands in fashion and cosmetics etc. However they I am sure didn't figure for the entire marketplace shifting as it has done under their feet as they do it so they get hurt twice as hard in the process.

I still maintain that if they can get enough profitable single employee locations and manage their costs as the company shrinks, they can survive in this segmented market they're trying to create, even if they end up being much smaller in the process due to massive volume declines caused by both price increases and reduced retail hours.

Their current treatment of their trade partners as adversaries is just ridiculous. If a independent stockist finds a business model that works to sell large quantities of products, you don't enforce a policy change to shut that down. And you don't reduce the product line they can carry. And you certainly don't give them artificial limits on the volume of product they can order.

They claimed they could grow to £300m a year publicly a few years ago, they seem to have lost the appetite or capability to attain proper growth.

There's no capacity for growth in their current plan. Their plan is all about reducing capacity to save money. And when they do get a cash reserve, instead of finding a way to expand their sales base with it, they just pay it out as a dividend rather than reinvest it.

Well now we have all these Grand Ideas on how to Run GW shall we be setting up a Kickstarter for 6 billion to by them out, any ideas for stretch goals that doesn't result in kidnapping MDs?

 P4Painting wrote:
Well now we have all these Grand Ideas on how to Run GW shall we be setting up a Kickstarter for 6 billion to by them out, any ideas for stretch goals that doesn't result in kidnapping MDs?

As a Director who controls several million dollars in funds and about 100 employees, I wouldn't want to inherit the mess that is GW PLC. A CEO going in after the decades of petty despotism under current management would face conditions similar to trying to make people like Microsoft again...

dereksatkinson wrote:
... bitter socially awkward...

So now you're just going to start out-and-out insulting groups of people at this website?

Your entertainment value has waned, and your inability to listen to anyone in this thread and the way you instantly resort to dismissive and inflammatory statements makes you not worth reading. You have become the very definition of a modern GW White Knight. Polish your armour with pride Derek, 'cause ain't no one here's gonna do it for ya.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

dereksatkinson wrote:
... bitter socially awkward...

So now you're just going to start out-and-out insulting groups of people at this website?

Jean-Jacques Rousseau wrote:Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong.

People leave forums on a subject matter when they move on, usually. I was huge into Diablo 2 forums when I was playing the game, writing guides, and diggin' into PVP.

If I truly ever stopped caring about 40k entirely, I'd probably stop coming here. Maybe for the news and the pretty pictures, but not for much else since the other games all have active, company hosted forums to talk smack on.

The sign you are done isn't hatred, but apathy.

 TheKbob wrote:
People leave forums on a subject matter when they move on, usually. I was huge into Diablo 2 forums when I was playing the game, writing guides, and diggin' into PVP.

If I truly ever stopped caring about 40k entirely, I'd probably stop coming here. Maybe for the news and the pretty pictures, but not for much else since the other games all have active, company hosted forums to talk smack on.

The sign you are done isn't hatred, but apathy.

Well said. And when it comes to our passions, such as GW gaming, apathy is much, much worse than hatred.

weeble1000 wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

To comment on this idea that it's irrational to discuss a company you are not currently a customer of, all I can say is that it's okay for people to find discussing things enjoyable, even if you don't. I am a former GW customer and am waiting patiently for them to release a product or game that I might want. And in the mean time, I find the business side of things interesting. If I was a member on a digital audio forum and stopped buying Apple products in favour of something else (and maybe a new iPhone will one day be the type of product I want) I very well might still comment in a thread on the business side of Apple because I find it interesting.

There is nothing irrational or hateful or negative about that. So Derek's group attack on thread participants is totally baseless. And attacks like that are often the last resort of people who don't have any evidence to support their assertions.

It's more than that. GW is a big part of this industry. If you are interested in this industry, at all, you should be clued into what is going on with GW. It would be like following what Apple does even if you dislike Apple and are an avid Android user. What Apple does in the smartphone market is terribly important (as well as other markets). It just is.

If GW falls apart, that will have a huge impact on the market. GW's prices and business practices influence the market and the behavior of competitors. GW's IP enforcement polices have long had a significant impact on the market.

Simply put, GW is a big fish in a small pond. If you care about what is going on in that pond, you should have an eye on what's happening with that big fish.

That, in a nutshell, is the only reason that I do not actively want GW to fail.

I would have a hard time caring less about GW than I do now - but its fall will affect companies that I do like and respect - and I even like and respect one of GW's subsidiaries.

Without GW Victoria Lamb, Kromlech, Maxmini, Chapterhouse Studios, and many others, would be having a hard time - and they produce fantastic products - ones that I like much, much more than the current run of GW.

The Auld Grump

 TheKbob wrote:
People leave forums on a subject matter when they move on, usually. I was huge into Diablo 2 forums when I was playing the game, writing guides, and diggin' into PVP.

If I truly ever stopped caring about 40k entirely, I'd probably stop coming here. Maybe for the news and the pretty pictures, but not for much else since the other games all have active, company hosted forums to talk smack on.

The sign you are done isn't hatred, but apathy.

But the Hobby is not just 40K , i played Stalingrad, Warzone, Chronopia, Rackham's Confrontation, Void, played most GW games (except the LORD of RINGS stuff and warhammer fantasy), and now i am into Bolt Action and Dust Tactics/Warfare, and am thinking of starting Infinity.

The amount i spent on GW because of their policies has dwindled of the years to almost nothing, so even do if i would stop with the HHHobby, i would still come here because i am a wargame nerd.

And Mr. Atkinson, generalizing and insulting those who do not agree with GW policies or your view on the situation, says more about your personality.
But you will put the blame on the us again anyway and not on the almighty GW that can do no wrong. People usually get passionate about things they love.

I recently left GW but I still love the 40k universe and I'm very interested to see what happens with GW in the next year or two. I want to like them again, but there needs to be some drastic changes first. I've sold one army but I'm keeping my SOB army just in case things do turn around, which I want.

But honestly, I don't see that happening. Their business model is unsustainable.

I think Derek is still suffering from the mentality that makes it impossible to separate 40K from GW, and vice versa.

I don't like GW. The way they treat their customers, their predatory interactions with other companies, their complete disregard for even a modicum of social media interaction, their insane and inane pricing and retail strategy, and the utter incompetence when it comes to writing a cogent, coherent and concise set of rules are all reasons to dislike them.

But 40K? Why would any of the above make me stop liking 40K? I still like the vast majority of their miniatures, I think their artwork is amazing, I love the universe and the potential stories within. Hell, if I hated 40K... why would I be working with FFG to write various 40K RPG books?

I know I've posted this about a million times already, but it still surprises me how often people here don't seem to get it:

Not liking GW =/= not liking 40K.
Liking 40K =/= liking GW.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


Not liking GW =/= not liking 40K.
Liking 40K =/= liking GW.

weeble1000 wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

To comment on this idea that it's irrational to discuss a company you are not currently a customer of, all I can say is that it's okay for people to find discussing things enjoyable, even if you don't. I am a former GW customer and am waiting patiently for them to release a product or game that I might want. And in the mean time, I find the business side of things interesting. If I was a member on a digital audio forum and stopped buying Apple products in favour of something else (and maybe a new iPhone will one day be the type of product I want) I very well might still comment in a thread on the business side of Apple because I find it interesting.

There is nothing irrational or hateful or negative about that. So Derek's group attack on thread participants is totally baseless. And attacks like that are often the last resort of people who don't have any evidence to support their assertions.

It's more than that. GW is a big part of this industry. If you are interested in this industry, at all, you should be clued into what is going on with GW. It would be like following what Apple does even if you dislike Apple and are an avid Android user. What Apple does in the smartphone market is terribly important (as well as other markets). It just is.

If GW falls apart, that will have a huge impact on the market. GW's prices and business practices influence the market and the behavior of competitors. GW's IP enforcement polices have long had a significant impact on the market.

It will be an impact but not as huge one IMHO. People are still giving credit that GW is an 800 pound gorilla in the hobby. Well it is not. More or less they are working on an illusion of strength as they perceive themselves back in 2000.

Nature Abhors a vacuum and when GW goes away there will be plenty of companies taking what's left of their customer base.
Simply put, GW is a big fish in a small pond. If you care about what is going on in that pond, you should have an eye on what's happening with that big fish.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think Derek is still suffering from the mentality that makes it impossible to separate 40K from GW, and vice versa.

I don't like GW. The way they treat their customers, their predatory interactions with other companies, their complete disregard for even a modicum of social media interaction, their insane and inane pricing and retail strategy, and the utter incompetence when it comes to writing a cogent, coherent and concise set of rules are all reasons to dislike them.

But 40K? Why would any of the above make me stop liking 40K? I still like the vast majority of their miniatures, I think their artwork is amazing, I love the universe and the potential stories within. Hell, if I hated 40K... why would I be working with FFG to write various 40K RPG books?

I know I've posted this about a million times already, but it still surprises me how often people here don't seem to get it:

Not liking GW =/= not liking 40K.
Liking 40K =/= liking GW.

Please stop. My neck is getting sore from agreeing with you too much

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

It will be an impact but not as huge one IMHO. People are still giving credit that GW is an 800 pound gorilla in the hobby. Well it is not. More or less they are working on an illusion of strength as they perceive themselves back in 2000.

Nature Abhors a vacuum and when GW goes away there will be plenty of companies taking what's left of their customer base.

There are quite a few examples in business of the opposite; lose a market leader and smaller competitors don't pick up all those sales. Instead, the size of the market diminishes.

Personally, I don't spend too much time worrying about GW, there are many businesses that aren't run the way I'd like and life is too short. There's a big But, though: their efforts at recruitment (of young wargamers) affect not just their own sales, but those of other businesses, too. I suspect that it's in recruitment that they're failing, in particular, and this will have knock-on effects for the whole sector.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:
It will be an impact but not as huge one IMHO. People are still giving credit that GW is an 800 pound gorilla in the hobby. Well it is not. More or less they are working on an illusion of strength as they perceive themselves back in 2000.

Nature Abhors a vacuum and when GW goes away there will be plenty of companies taking what's left of their customer base.
Simply put, GW is a big fish in a small pond. If you care about what is going on in that pond, you should have an eye on what's happening with that big fish.

In the US, yes. UK? No. Easily 90%+ of wargaming stores in the UK are GW stores. Change the definition of a wargaming store to one which runs demos, is clean and friendly and that figure probably jumps up to 99%+. If GW stores vanish then the hobby in the UK loses the vast majority of new starts for at least a decade until indies get back up and running. There'll be some word of mouth recruiting, but next to no "walk in off the high street" recruitment at all, and very few convenient places to pick up miniatures - let alone places which parents would be comfortable taking their kids to.

I think you're overestimating the dominance of GW stores now.

In Scotland, there are definitely more FLGS's than GW stores, by a ratio of at least 2:1. It may be different in areas nearer Nottingham, but the hobby store won't vanish if GW did.

How much of their sales is still GW based, I don't know, and not all of them have gaming areas either.

Really? Where? (Note - lives in Scotland. Genuinely curious)

GW was partly responsible for the death of lots of local games shops but that was in the days when GW sold a range of products. UK retail landlords and to some degree local councils bear a lot of the blame too.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

It will be an impact but not as huge one IMHO. People are still giving credit that GW is an 800 pound gorilla in the hobby. Well it is not. More or less they are working on an illusion of strength as they perceive themselves back in 2000.

Nature Abhors a vacuum and when GW goes away there will be plenty of companies taking what's left of their customer base.

There are quite a few examples in business of the opposite; lose a market leader and smaller competitors don't pick up all those sales. Instead, the size of the market diminishes.

Personally, I don't spend too much time worrying about GW, there are many businesses that aren't run the way I'd like and life is too short. There's a big But, though: their efforts at recruitment (of young wargamers) affect not just their own sales, but those of other businesses, too. I suspect that it's in recruitment that they're failing, in particular, and this will have knock-on effects for the whole sector.

But GW has been failing in recruitment for at least a couple of years now, and the market has grown. I don't think it can be put down to an extant customer base spending more money. I think a lot of it has come from an expanding customer base. You can go into Barnes and Noble and find X-Wing: The Miniatures Game and a slew of board games and LCGs from a variety of manufacturers. It seems to me that the board game and wargame markets are starting to blur considerably as more miniatures-heavy board games are released and more wargames are being packaged in ready-to-play box sets.

 Daedleh wrote:
In the US, yes. UK? No. Easily 90%+ of wargaming stores in the UK are GW stores. Change the definition of a wargaming store to one which runs demos, is clean and friendly and that figure probably jumps up to 99%+. If GW stores vanish then the hobby in the UK loses the vast majority of new starts for at least a decade until indies get back up and running. There'll be some word of mouth recruiting, but next to no "walk in off the high street" recruitment at all, and very few convenient places to pick up miniatures - let alone places which parents would be comfortable taking their kids to.

Anecdotally, out of the two big wargaming stores in Leeds (Patriot and Travelling Man), each have less than a quarter of their wargaming shelf space taken up by GW products, and both of them are clean, friendly and run / host demos and games nights of non-GW stuff.

weeble1000 wrote:

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

It will be an impact but not as huge one IMHO. People are still giving credit that GW is an 800 pound gorilla in the hobby. Well it is not. More or less they are working on an illusion of strength as they perceive themselves back in 2000.

Nature Abhors a vacuum and when GW goes away there will be plenty of companies taking what's left of their customer base.

There are quite a few examples in business of the opposite; lose a market leader and smaller competitors don't pick up all those sales. Instead, the size of the market diminishes.

Personally, I don't spend too much time worrying about GW, there are many businesses that aren't run the way I'd like and life is too short. There's a big But, though: their efforts at recruitment (of young wargamers) affect not just their own sales, but those of other businesses, too. I suspect that it's in recruitment that they're failing, in particular, and this will have knock-on effects for the whole sector.

But GW has been failing in recruitment for at least a couple of years now, and the market has grown. I don't think it can be put down to an extant customer base spending more money. I think a lot of it has come from an expanding customer base. You can go into Barnes and Noble and find X-Wing: The Miniatures Game and a slew of board games and LCGs from a variety of manufacturers. It seems to me that the board game and wargame markets are starting to blur considerably as more miniatures-heavy board games are released and more wargames are being packaged in ready-to-play box sets.

You can also go into Books-a-Million and buy the 40K RPGs - it is easier to find them in a typical mall in the US than it is to find the main game, at least when it comes to the book trade.

When Lord of the Rings was out you could buy the game at Waldenbooks - with huge visibility, at least locally. (The store manager gamed.)

Once upon a time I could buy a softbound Rogue Trader, complete with thirty beaky marines, at Booksmith.

And if we add in the games that they collaborated with Milton Bradley to produce - we could add in mall toystores such as Toys R Us and Kay Bee toys for HeroQuest, Warmaster, and Space Crusade....

The depressing thing is that on some of that we are looking back twenty years and more - and many of those bookstores and toy stores are gone.

The Maine Mall has no toy or book stores inside of the mall, though BaM has a satellite store, and Toys R Us is across the street. The world is changing....

GW is, I gather, moving out of the malls in the UK - and setting up one man shops that are further and further out. (And I will grant that this is hearsay - I have never seen a GW store, though they were scouting for one in this locale, back in 1994.)

The Auld Grump

I dunno about the UK but here in Oz there are 3 stores less than an hour's drive from me. The closest is a FLGS that is almost entirely magic and a rather closed minded 40k group, I've never seen an actual demo game happen there except for a couple that me and a friend have run for Dyst Wars. They only stock GW, X Wing and the odd box from a couple of other lines without any further support there. 40k seemed to be going ok but then they decided it wasn't worth giving the club an extra 5% off and they are looking for a new sponsor and gaming space so something is happening there but it doesn't seem good.

The GW store is tiny and from what I have seen introductory games have been more along the lines of rounding up 3 new guys, giving them a marine each, explaining to hit, to wound and save rolls before leaving them alone with a shooting range (3 or 4 models set up in a line to be shot at) and a handful of dice each as 'ammo'. Then the next day they come in would be assault and I assume eventually they would be able to play a proper game. This seems really dumb to me since the single employee clearly doesn't have the time to demo games.

Then there is the sadly furthest away FLGS. I went up there just the other night to check out the late night mid week gaming and there was a Pressganger there telling me all about Warmachine, I was given a proper demo of Kings of War (and actually decided I'd repurpose a bunch of viking models and get into it) as well I was told about how there would be Dyst Wars 2.0 demos and whatnot happening this weekend when the Spartan Vanguard would be in (and I actually ended up demoing a little then and there since I had the 2 player box with me).


GW having in store demo's was great once, I remember being walked through fantasy and buying into that, but the one man stores can't do it properly any more. There is just too much demand for that one poor man's time. The current system is better than nothing, but the system PP, Spartan and now Corvus Bellie have in place is so much better. If GW vanished I am confident these companies (and others) would be able to pick up the slack since they apparently have in many areas already.

Herzlos wrote:
I think you're overestimating the dominance of GW stores now.
In Scotland, there are definitely more FLGS's than GW stores, by a ratio of at least 2:1. It may be different in areas nearer Nottingham, but the hobby store won't vanish if GW did.

Even in southern England this is true. There is 1 GW in Portsmouth and 2 (at least) independents, they aren't very good independents but still. GW still has dominance in some areas but its not the monopoly that people think that it is.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
GW is, I gather, moving out of the malls in the UK - and setting up one man shops that are further and further out. (And I will grant that this is hearsay - I have never seen a GW store, though they were scouting for one in this locale, back in 1994.)

Actually I have seen a lot of that here too. The GW in my city is in a decent enough location, and they seem to get a fair amount of foot traffic, but they are right around the corner from a proper shopping center (or 'mall' for you Americans) that sees SO MANY more people wander through.

That seems to be the general trend too. The battle bunker in Brisbane is very much out of the way, but then being a battle bunker it is probably more of a destination store than one going after passers by.
There is also one in Sydney my mate knows that opened right next door to an already successful FLGS and is apparently just completely dead while the FLGS still sees plenty of business. I have no idea if they are out of the way or not though.

 Elemental wrote:

Anecdotally, out of the two big wargaming stores in Leeds (Patriot and Travelling Man), each have less than a quarter of their wargaming shelf space taken up by GW products, and both of them are clean, friendly and run / host demos and games nights of non-GW stuff.

I wish the Manchester branch of TM had space to host demos/games. NWGC is top, but a quick after work not-GW-game in Town would be great.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
GW is, I gather, moving out of the malls in the UK - and setting up one man shops that are further and further out. (And I will grant that this is hearsay - I have never seen a GW store, though they were scouting for one in this locale, back in 1994.)

Actually I have seen a lot of that here too. The GW in my city is in a decent enough location, and they seem to get a fair amount of foot traffic, but they are right around the corner from a proper shopping center (or 'mall' for you Americans) that sees SO MANY more people wander through.

That seems to be the general trend too. The battle bunker in Brisbane is very much out of the way, but then being a battle bunker it is probably more of a destination store than one going after passers by.
There is also one in Sydney my mate knows that opened right next door to an already successful FLGS and is apparently just completely dead while the FLGS still sees plenty of business. I have no idea if they are out of the way or not though.

I've always found the GW locations oddly out of the way.

GW Oslo, Norway is right in the middle of downtown, within two blocks of the government buildings and the main shopping street, but somehow on a corner with the least foot traffic in the whole city.

GW Nice, France is also downtown, a couple of minutes walk from the beach promenade, but in a quiet street with little to no foot traffic and no other shops.

GW Shanghai (Puxi) moved from a shopping centre in Xintiandi (very touristy place, right next to the Communist Party museum) to a residential area about 1km down the road. It's right next to a metro stop and easily accessible, but on a street with close to zero foot traffic.

GW Shanghai (Pudong) is tucked away in a shopping centre in the middle of nowhere (or at least as close to nowhere as you can get in a city with 23m people).

GW Union Landing (Bay Area, CA) is in a place where most Bay Area residents wouldn't just happen to be hanging around, and in an area full of potential customers with high salaries, it's not exactly in a hot spot.

GW Copenhagen... Well, I had twelve hours to kill downtown once and nothing better to do than buy some plastic crack, and I couldn't even find the place, even with a google maps printout. I had some roasted chestnuts and a beer instead.


The UK locations are much better (at least the ones I'v visited; Oxford Street, London, Metro Centre and (now apparently closed) Nelson Street, Newcastle, and Arndale Centre, Manchester), but the non-UK locations I've been to are all in weird locations that seem to be predicated on the assumption that they are destination stores, which doesn't really seem to make for a lot of recruitment, especially when taken in context of GW's rather idiosyncratic view of marketing.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just a hater and Cypriot banks something something Forbes.

Graphite wrote:
Really? Where? (Note - lives in Scotland. Genuinely curious)

The ones I'm aware of off the top of my head:

Common Ground Games - Stirling
Worlds at War - Livingston
Knightly Gaming - Lanark
Static Games - Glasgow
6stohit - Edinburgh

I'm sure there's at least another one in Glasgow, around Victoria park, and another one in Edinburgh near the Parliament buildings. But I do most of my buying at the 3 main shows (Carronade, Claymore and Targe).

In terms of Official GW stores, I believe all we have now is Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Carlisle. The Glasgow and Edinburgh stores are pretty big and in Key locations, I've never seen the other 2.

Falkirk's still going, and I'm pretty sure Stirling and Dundee are as well. 6stohit is pretty new - been meaning to drop in there.

Maybe a business minded person can help me out with this thought. Isn't it likely that as GW withdraws from the FLGS market that new FLGSs will naturally develop to fill the niche?

Even if the recruitment numbers drop for a couple years, there will still be a large existing player base for wargaming in general. Those existing players will need a base, so to speak.

Once new independents start to pop up, if they play their cards right and can make the kind of shops GWs USED to be, then the recruitment will start up again.

The current crop of historical games, modeled on the old style GW games (and usually from GW employees) like Bolt Action, Flames of War, and the Hail Ceasar/Black Powder line are all new player friendly. Given an existing gaming group they may even be MORE newb friendly than modern 40k or fantasy.

TLR Wargaming long predates GW. THe market would notice the loss of GW, but it would survive it. Nature, and business abhors a vacuum.

 Kyrolon wrote:
The current crop of historical games, modeled on the old style GW games (and usually from GW employees) like Bolt Action, Flames of War, and the Hail Ceasar/Black Powder line are all new player friendly. Given an existing gaming group they may even be MORE newb friendly than modern 40k or fantasy.

More newb friendly for sure, but also attacking an entrenched market. There are two general reasons why people will stick with GW as long as possible:

1) They've already invested money in it, and don't want to put more money into another game, even if it would cost them less to get started than in a GW game; it's the perception of starting a new game, especially when one is used to a new game or army costing hundreds.

2) (BIG ONE IMO) Lack of interest in the genre. All of those games mentioned are historical; not everyone likes historical gaming. Regardless of if Bolt Action's rules are ten times better than 40k and the figures are cheaper for comparable quality, if someone doesn't want to play WW2 then Bolt Action is useless to them for the most part (it's possible to convert the rules for 40k, but that's a significant amount of work). If an entire group doesn't want to play WW2, then trying to push it as an alternative is going to fail and, likely, make you seem like a TFG and/or GW Hater. Of course that goes for any other game that you try to suggest to a group dead set in their ways. Might be different with an established wargames club where it's implied that you'll be exposed to a variety of games, but for the typical group of people that congregate at the game store on "Miniatures Night", who may or may not know each other, it's a much harder sell to say "Hey everyone I've started Bolt Action, and you should too!".

 Kyrolon wrote:
Maybe a business minded person can help me out with this thought. Isn't it likely that as GW withdraws from the FLGS market that new FLGSs will naturally develop to fill the niche?

Even if the recruitment numbers drop for a couple years, there will still be a large existing player base for wargaming in general. Those existing players will need a base, so to speak.

Once new independents start to pop up, if they play their cards right and can make the kind of shops GWs USED to be, then the recruitment will start up again.

The current crop of historical games, modeled on the old style GW games (and usually from GW employees) like Bolt Action, Flames of War, and the Hail Ceasar/Black Powder line are all new player friendly. Given an existing gaming group they may even be MORE newb friendly than modern 40k or fantasy.

TLR Wargaming long predates GW. THe market would notice the loss of GW, but it would survive it. Nature, and business abhors a vacuum.

Where there's a market with an opportunity, there's either a business or an entrepreneur to fill it. If there's truly going to be a vacuum in the UK like people are suggesting there would be, I would even go as far as to suspect that there might be some people out there with a lot of capital that could afford to open 2-3 stores as a small chain to cash in on all the open turf.

Graphite wrote:
Falkirk's still going, and I'm pretty sure Stirling and Dundee are as well. 6stohit is pretty new - been meaning to drop in there.

I didn't realise they existed, good spot.

Looking at the store locator, within 50 miles of Glasgow there are 4 GW's and 14 independent retailers. That's only the ones listed/stocking GW stuff, there will be others that don't (like Static Games). So we're at 4 independents to 1 GW, albeit most of those independents appear to be art stores with a GW section.

6's to hit is great - the shop itself is tiny but has a huge amount of stuff wedged in there, new and 2nd hand. There's a nice cafe above it and a gaming area downstairs with 2 walls of board games that are free to use (something like £2/day gaming fee).

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Kyrolon wrote:
The current crop of historical games, modeled on the old style GW games (and usually from GW employees) like Bolt Action, Flames of War, and the Hail Ceasar/Black Powder line are all new player friendly. Given an existing gaming group they may even be MORE newb friendly than modern 40k or fantasy.

More newb friendly for sure, but also attacking an entrenched market. There are two general reasons why people will stick with GW as long as possible:

1) They've already invested money in it, and don't want to put more money into another game, even if it would cost them less to get started than in a GW game; it's the perception of starting a new game, especially when one is used to a new game or army costing hundreds.

2) (BIG ONE IMO) Lack of interest in the genre. All of those games mentioned are historical; not everyone likes historical gaming. Regardless of if Bolt Action's rules are ten times better than 40k and the figures are cheaper for comparable quality, if someone doesn't want to play WW2 then Bolt Action is useless to them for the most part (it's possible to convert the rules for 40k, but that's a significant amount of work). If an entire group doesn't want to play WW2, then trying to push it as an alternative is going to fail and, likely, make you seem like a TFG and/or GW Hater. Of course that goes for any other game that you try to suggest to a group dead set in their ways. Might be different with an established wargames club where it's implied that you'll be exposed to a variety of games, but for the typical group of people that congregate at the game store on "Miniatures Night", who may or may not know each other, it's a much harder sell to say "Hey everyone I've started Bolt Action, and you should too!".

3) They enjoy playing GW games.

4) Do not consider GW games to be too expensive.

There are more but that's 2 more obvious reasons why a gamer would stick with GW games. You're suggesting they are stuck with them and that would be rather dismissive.

Herzlos wrote:

Graphite wrote:
Really? Where? (Note - lives in Scotland. Genuinely curious)

The ones I'm aware of off the top of my head:

Common Ground Games - Stirling
Worlds at War - Livingston
Knightly Gaming - Lanark
Static Games - Glasgow
6stohit - Edinburgh

I'm sure there's at least another one in Glasgow, around Victoria park, and another one in Edinburgh near the Parliament buildings. But I do most of my buying at the 3 main shows (Carronade, Claymore and Targe).

In terms of Official GW stores, I believe all we have now is Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Carlisle. The Glasgow and Edinburgh stores are pretty big and in Key locations, I've never seen the other 2.

Static Games in Glasgow barely has the room to swing a cat, nevermind play a game of something (unless there's some secret gaming room, that is) and is far more of a Magic The Gathering, Board Games and RPG store than Wargaming. I genuinely don't think you'd be able to buy enough in that store to build a complete viable force for any major wargaming range. Also, I've heard from many people that 'friendly' may not always apply to the store...

Additionally, you've left off Games Workshop Ayr - which still exists as far as GW's website is concerned.

 Compel wrote:
I genuinely don't think you'd be able to buy enough in that store to build a complete viable force for any major wargaming range.

Neither can you in any GW store since a large amount of their stock has been moved to "direct only"! /bazinga!

WayneTheGame wrote:
2) (BIG ONE IMO) Lack of interest in the genre. All of those games mentioned are historical; not everyone likes historical gaming. Regardless of if Bolt Action's rules are ten times better than 40k and the figures are cheaper for comparable quality, if someone doesn't want to play WW2 then Bolt Action is useless to them for the most part (it's possible to convert the rules for 40k, but that's a significant amount of work). If an entire group doesn't want to play WW2, then trying to push it as an alternative is going to fail and, likely, make you seem like a TFG and/or GW Hater.

People were saying the exact same thing when Flames of War first came out. And yet it still managed to grow and spread all over the world.

Games are social things. And people who want other people to try a game they like tend to not expect people to invest beforehand. The successful promoters of their new interest will show up on gaming night with both sides, terrain and quick reference cards and run games for interested players. The demo process works. It's why GW uses it in their retail stores.

Historical miniature gaming hasn't gone away with GW's dominance. GW has largely been a feeder for historical gaming. Teenagers get into 40k and then when their tastes mature, they often move onto other things. 40k is targeted at 14 year old boys, after all. Flames of War arriving at GW's height in 2002 was timed perfectly with the maturation of the children of the baby boom generation. And since then we've had 12 years of historical gaming being more and more on people's radar and in wider hobby distribution. To the point where we are now at a time where it can be people's first experience of miniature gaming rather than having them first go through the GW cash grinder to get there.

And the people behind it are either ex-GW or keenly aware of how to use GW's marketing model to offer a complete experience. I never thought I'd walk into a local store and see people playing an English Civil War battle, but the store brought in one of Warlord's For King & Country starters and someone grabbed it instead of grabbing something from GW, Privateer or Battlefront. The guy painted up both sides and has been running games. And now the store has the occasional special order and is stocking a box or two and keeps the rulebook in stock.

The thing to remember in this thread is that GW's marketing model works when you have the right combination of volunteer fan promoters, demo games and retail support. Other companies have figured out how to use it and have even improved on it by adding single player starter sets that offer a complete gaming experience.

GW's competition has figured out exactly what GW did with 40k and WFB in the 90s during their time of greatest year over year growth. And it works for sci-fi, fantasy and historical subjects alike. It would work for GW too if they went back to it.

.

Well of course I agree, and I know those games are growing. Just if you were to walk into the largest FLGS in my area and talk about Flames of War, you'd likely not get a response as it seems people there aren't interested. I had to go to a different store to learn to play Warmachine, because the guy who would do Warmachine demos stopped after a couple of weeks of showing up and just sitting there looking like an idiot because nobody gave a crap to try the demo or to bother learning another game.

Naturally this differs in different areas, my point was that while those games are growing, they're also contingent on people wanting to play them. Having demo games to show it without investment is good, but it still doesn't solve the issue if people are interested but don't want to buy another army for another game, or if they just aren't interested in the demo game. 40k is still ubiquitous; it's shrinking to be sure but depending on the area a lot of other games haven't made an impact because people are too caught up in 40k to bother to notice other games out there. However I have heard the store has started to stock Bolt Action, so maybe there's hope

Thanks for the replies, and I agree for the most part. A few of you though applied parameters to my thoughts that weren't there. I agree as long as GW is around there will be those who play. Heck, I still play from time to time even though I have yet to get 7th edition and only have one infrequent opponent.

Where a couple of you have either misread or not acknowledged what I was trying to knock around as an idea was what happens in a world with NO GW?

It has been implied that gaming in Britain at least would die without GW. I'd posit that it would not since it existed before GW, and a niche that needs filling will be filled.

So, without arguing over whether people will move AWAY from an existing GW, will players move to a new game if GW went away? I think history proves they would.

One addendum to what I said earlier, brought up by a couple people re: historical vs sci fi gaming. World of Tanks seems pretty popular, along with a lot of the other free to play historical computer games as well as regular titles like Call of Duty etc. The historical gaming market, via easy to learn, easy to start games can take advantage of that exposure of the younger crowd to WW2 as a gaming setting.

In addition, IIRC, Rick Priestly is looking at using the Bolt Action style game system for Gates of Antares. If that proves to be a system that I can use to "roll my own" stats, then I can leave the 40K rules behind for good, because I much prefer the mechanics of Bolt Action.

They just need to release "official" Game of Thrones rules for people to be interested in historical hahahahaha.

Buy the rights for GoT, get a good historical rules set and reskin it and ride the wave of fad like a Targaryen on a dragon. Boom. I mean, there are already myriads of people making GoT armies and using historical rules.

WayneTheGame wrote:
I had to go to a different store to learn to play Warmachine, because the guy who would do Warmachine demos stopped after a couple of weeks of showing up and just sitting there looking like an idiot because nobody gave a crap to try the demo or to bother learning another game.

Why in the world should someone try to sell a game to people that are already having fun with another? That's the mistake the WM demo guy made. He tried to solve a problem that didn't exist. The people who were showing up already had a game they were enjoying. It'd exactly the same if everyone was playing Infinity and you showed up with a 40k demo set up. They'd be like "dude, this is a Infinity gaming night, what are you doing?"

At one store I go to every couple months, they started WM/H demos on the Warhammer Fantasy day when attendance for WFB dropped. And the store advertised it. So those who played 40k didn't have to give up their 40k gaming time to try it out. If they were interested, they could just come on the different night to check it out. Then people started meeting on the 40k day and playing on an open table. Then the WM/H grew until the 40k play on that day was a minority.

The 40k players who react negatively to someone coming and trying to get them to switch gaming are right to do so. You never, ever, ever, ever attempt to promote one game by trashing another and you certainly don't try to directly disrupt a previously organized gaming night. If it's not an organized game night but simply open tables and people happen to really play 40k a lot, then the way to break in there takes two people. Who show up and play eachother and offer the opportunity to others who express interest to participate, but not try to sell people who are there to play another game.

However I have heard the store has started to stock Bolt Action, so maybe there's hope

So what the store needs to do now is to start up a Bolt Action night or day at a different time than the 40k game and find someone interested in running demos (be it staff or volunteer). Asking people to choose between something they like and something that's unknown is stupid.

 frozenwastes wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I had to go to a different store to learn to play Warmachine, because the guy who would do Warmachine demos stopped after a couple of weeks of showing up and just sitting there looking like an idiot because nobody gave a crap to try the demo or to bother learning another game.

Why in the world should someone try to sell a game to people that are already having fun with another? That's the mistake the WM demo guy made. He tried to solve a problem that didn't exist. The people who were showing up already had a game they were enjoying. It'd exactly the same if everyone was playing Infinity and you showed up with a 40k demo set up. They'd be like "dude, this is a Infinity gaming night, what are you doing?"

That's... brilliant I actually wondered that, I think because the store just has a generic "miniatures night" for everything, since most of the other days are taken up by MtG drafts all the time.

WayneTheGame wrote:
That's... brilliant I actually wondered that, I think because the store just has a generic "miniatures night" for everything, since most of the other days are taken up by MtG drafts all the time.

The way to go in this situation requires two people. They simply agree to play the chosen game at the generic miniatures night and they don't try to sell people on it. If anyone asks about it, they can invite them to try it later or whatever, but they don't go there to try to run demos for people who already have a miniature game that meets their needs. What you want are the 40k players who are starting to get bored or maybe want a change.

In the past, such potential customers were kept in the GW ecosystem by games like BFG, Warmaster, Epic, Necromunda, Bloodbowl, etc.,. GW offered these "change of pace" products that kept people buying from them. Now other companies pretty much have these market sown up and in many places, the "change of pace" games become the main game.

If you're interested in an alternative in a GW dominated area, the first step is to use the internet to find a like minded individual and then go to the generic miniature nights and play the game in question to actually play it and show that it is being played, not to sell people something they don't need or want. Oh, and painted miniatures. If you're going to show case something, grey primer horde is a bad way to go.

Demo sales are for people who's needs are not being met, not those that already have what they are looking for.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I had to go to a different store to learn to play Warmachine, because the guy who would do Warmachine demos stopped after a couple of weeks of showing up and just sitting there looking like an idiot because nobody gave a crap to try the demo or to bother learning another game.

Why in the world should someone try to sell a game to people that are already having fun with another? That's the mistake the WM demo guy made. He tried to solve a problem that didn't exist. The people who were showing up already had a game they were enjoying. It'd exactly the same if everyone was playing Infinity and you showed up with a 40k demo set up. They'd be like "dude, this is a Infinity gaming night, what are you doing?"

That's... brilliant I actually wondered that, I think because the store just has a generic "miniatures night" for everything, since most of the other days are taken up by MtG drafts all the time.

It's actually pretty easy to get a MTG player to try out WM/H. Just show them the cards, and explain how synergies work. and blam...."its just like 3D MTG son"....

 notprop wrote:

3) They enjoy playing GW games.

4) Do not consider GW games to be too expensive.

There are more but that's 2 more obvious reasons why a gamer would stick with GW games. You're suggesting they are stuck with them and that would be rather dismissive.

Enjoy playing is subjective, but too expensive, rather the value of, is not. We have plenty of folks here, including myself, who make good wages/salaries who can look at a $140 Imperial Knight and know that's a rip off. When you have folks in the industry who also make models stating that their kits are highway robbery, you know something is wrong. When I talk to friends who model for modeling sake, they all snuff at GW for being incredibly overpriced.

If you don't find the modern trend of stealth price increases and the lower of value gross (10 Avengers -> 5 Avengers + price increased, etc), then sure, that's on you. But the measurable value of Games Workshop products has greatly diminished no matter your opinion on the matter. It just simply costs more per model and for rules than it ever did, far outstripping inflation or anything to do with material costs.

 heartserenade wrote:
They just need to release "official" Game of Thrones rules for people to be interested in historical hahahahaha.

Buy the rights for GoT, get a good historical rules set and reskin it and ride the wave of fad like a Targaryen on a dragon. Boom. I mean, there are already myriads of people making GoT armies and using historical rules.

I'm not sure if your are joking or not, because your post is kind of unreadable, but you do understand that a historical game is classified as such because of its setting and not its rules, right?

And that GoT is a Fantasy setting and its not historical, right?

And so, by its very definition, any game based on the GoT universe would not be historical, right?

I think the general gist was that GoT is very "low" fantasy, and a ruleset developed for a historical setting would require only a small amount of tweaking to accommodate the odd fantastical unit (such as Dragons and Giants) the majority of warfare being blokes with swords, spears and shields.

I'd love Bolt Action, in theory, if it had a supernatural addition to it. It's why I like Fantasy and Sci-Fi but historicals not so much. I'm sure it's a great game, along with Flames of War, but I just don't resonate with it.

 TheKbob wrote:
I'd love Bolt Action, in theory, if it had a supernatural addition to it. It's why I like Fantasy and Sci-Fi but historicals not so much. I'm sure it's a great game, along with Flames of War, but I just don't resonate with it.

Maybe Dust then? It's got mecha and I think I saw zombies?

Introduce Psychic rules and ludicrous armour and weapons into Bolt Action, and you'd have some sort of weird glimpse of what 40K would be if Alessio and Rick had stayed with GW.

Yeah but 40K has psychic and ludicrous stuff now so why do you need to change?

Because the bones of Bolt Action strike me as a much better system for rewarding player decision making and much less random nonsense?

Not a player, just a rulebook owner, so I could be wrong! In fact, I'm pretty sure there's a lot of Space Marine/Epic 40K in Bolt Action's DNA too.

Your impressions are pretty accurate. It takes some doing to properly set up an assault on an enemy position and the turn structure and pinning mechanics definitely mean you can make a plan and try to carry it out and have meaningful decisions.

Not to mention that (in a fairly realistic turn) assaults are either wildly successful or a devastating failure. There is no in between. Once you launch as assault one unit or the other is going to be gone.

That makes them a useful tool, but not one approached lightly.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
I'd love Bolt Action, in theory, if it had a supernatural addition to it. It's why I like Fantasy and Sci-Fi but historicals not so much. I'm sure it's a great game, along with Flames of War, but I just don't resonate with it.

Maybe Dust then? It's got mecha and I think I saw zombies?

It does and it's interesting, but I'd like to have a community to step into. One of the problems with buying too many wargames...

So... someone is looking for a World War 2 game like Bolt Action, but with a supernatural bent?

Secrets of the Third Reich 1949. http://www.westwindproductions.co.uk/catalog/secrets_of_the_third_reich.php

Skirmish to platoon level game. Set in 1949, WW2 is still going on.
It has Chemical weapon zombies, lycanthropes, Vampires rising from ye olde Transylvania, Occult power groups, and alien tech. That's from the Germans.

Force lists for US, UK, Resistance fighters, USSR, Germans.

Rules are pretty good. They need some tightening up, which will happen next year when the rules are revamped in anew edition.

You can play with completely mundane forces using existing Bolt Action/ generic WW2 armies, or add any amount of Weird you want. Mecha, supersoldiers, arcane/occult specialists.

ski2060 wrote:
So... someone is looking for a World War 2 game like Bolt Action, but with a supernatural bent?

Secrets of the Third Reich 1949. http://www.westwindproductions.co.uk/catalog/secrets_of_the_third_reich.php

Skirmish to platoon level game. Set in 1949, WW2 is still going on.
It has Chemical weapon zombies, lycanthropes, Vampires rising from ye olde Transylvania, Occult power groups, and alien tech. That's from the Germans.

Force lists for US, UK, Resistance fighters, USSR, Germans.

Rules are pretty good. They need some tightening up, which will happen next year when the rules are revamped in anew edition.

You can play with completely mundane forces using existing Bolt Action/ generic WW2 armies, or add any amount of Weird you want. Mecha, supersoldiers, arcane/occult specialists.

So it's a tabletop Wolfenstein? Pretty cool

I just looked at Bolt Action for the first time and realized that the reason I was convinced to start playing 40k was the cover of the 2nd edition guard codex.... oh yeah, I like miniature army men!

Are the rules for Bolt Action as tight as for Warmahordes? Cuz I could totally get into that.

 slowthar wrote:
I just looked at Bolt Action for the first time and realized that the reason I was convinced to start playing 40k was the cover of the 2nd edition guard codex.... oh yeah, I like miniature army men!

Are the rules for Bolt Action as tight as for Warmahordes? Cuz I could totally get into that.

If you don't mind a little trip, contact TechNoir in Oneonta, NY. My friend owns the store, and he has a very large following for Bolt Action. They love it there. Tell him "Brian" sent you on Dakka. That's all the introduction you'll need.

Yeah, Bolt Action is pretty tight as far as rules go. But it's more like 40k than WM/H and the strength of the rules comes from the turn structure and pinning mechanic combined with very familiar shooting mechanics. Bad match ups are still possible, but mostly only occur when people intentionally try their best to deviate from the core concept of a reinforced infantry platoon.

I ended up getting the rules from like Amazon or Chapters or something for really cheap.

From what I hear, New England, New York and Jersey are crawling with Bolt Action players.

PhantomViper wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
They just need to release "official" Game of Thrones rules for people to be interested in historical hahahahaha.

Buy the rights for GoT, get a good historical rules set and reskin it and ride the wave of fad like a Targaryen on a dragon. Boom. I mean, there are already myriads of people making GoT armies and using historical rules.

I'm not sure if your are joking or not, because your post is kind of unreadable, but you do understand that a historical game is classified as such because of its setting and not its rules, right?

And that GoT is a Fantasy setting and its not historical, right?

And so, by its very definition, any game based on the GoT universe would not be historical, right?

I wasn't talking about making a historical game. I was talking about tweaking a historical rulesset, because that's what people are doing anyway.

Well I was joking (because they would never ever do it, in my opinion) but it's true that a lot of people are playing their GoT armies with historical rulessets (Hail Caesar, Saga, even a variant of KoW that's made for medieval combat). It's because in GoT, most battles are just normal dudes poking each other with pointed things. Dragons and giants are considered super rare and some people don't even believe in their existence in that universe.

Kings of War would also work well - magic plays a supporting role, rather than being the be all and end all.

Works well with massive armies, and resolution is quick.

The Auld Grump

I'm very high on the KoW rules. Just wish they'd fleshed out the magic rules with a bit more chrome. Not much, but enough to make it seem like more than just variants of zap or heal. But the figures? Not so much, but great looking rules to use if you want to us your GW figs in a less cumbersome and unbalanced game.

Valete,

JohnS

 cygnnus wrote:
I'm very high on the KoW rules. Just wish they'd fleshed out the magic rules with a bit more chrome. Not much, but enough to make it seem like more than just variants of zap or heal. But the figures? Not so much, but great looking rules to use if you want to us your GW figs in a less cumbersome and unbalanced game.

Valete,

JohnS

Eh to each their own, I kinda like the figures, but only because when you're looking at 20 of them from a typical view on a tabletop, they look nice no matter the individual quality. I've long adhered to the notion that the look of the regiment is more important than the look of any one model (something I learned from Rick Priestly and Nigel Stillman in old issues of White Dwarf ). Even the loathed Basilean Men-at-arms don't look terrible if you are looking down at a regiment of 20 painted to a tabletop standard.

KoW rules would likely work very well for Game of Thrones; I think I once saw a Kingdom of Men army someone posted on the Mantic forums that was done up as Stannis Baratheon's army, with Stannis as a hero and Melisandre or whatever her name is as a wizard. You also have Undead, and the Wildlings could probably use most of the Orc rules fairly well. Danaerys could likely be done with Elves, since their spearmen get Elite which would be good for the Unsullied, and they have dragons (well, dragon riders), and I believe light skirmishing cavalry that would be the Dothraki.

IMO it is a fundamental problem or perhaps I should say limitation of magic or SF themes that if incorporated into tactical warfare they tend to end up either being a slight tweak on conventional historical warfare or something that makes conventional tactics and troops irrelevant in which case you are left wondering why you bothered.

I have no problem with a dragon for instance but if you allow a dragon to have the effect in an otherwise mediaeval game that an attack helicopter could there would be no point in the mediaeval army so why would you be playing the game in the first place? So the dragon has to be expressed in terms that allow it to be incorporated within the mediaeval framework and give the "conventional" mediaeval troops some chance to fight it. (E.g. Bard the Bowman.)

This is not to say that fantasy and SF are useless. Far from it! I play and have enjoyed plenty of such games over the years as well as historical.

My point is that truly different F/SF themes require some very different kind of framework in order to be fully expressed. Otherwise to some degree playing Fantasy is like a Napoleonics player playing ACW for a change of pace. Nothing wrong with it at all and of course historical players often change genres or periods for exactly that reason.

 cygnnus wrote:
I'm very high on the KoW rules. Just wish they'd fleshed out the magic rules with a bit more chrome. Not much, but enough to make it seem like more than just variants of zap or heal. But the figures? Not so much, but great looking rules to use if you want to us your GW figs in a less cumbersome and unbalanced game.

Valete,

JohnS

The magic rules get fleshed out a bit in The Basilean Legacy - Zap! is used to cover a wide range of combat spells - so Fireball, as an example, gets a short 6" range, hits on a 5+, and has Blast (dD6). So it has a wicked short range, is less likely to hit... but each hit that it does get will do a d6 of damage to the target. (I have wiped a unit of trolls off the map with fireball....)

The variant Zap! rules can be found in the Tournament rules.

The Auld Grump