Savageconvoy wrote: What really creeps me out about all of this, is I haven't seen one honest attempt to put a positive spin on this. Not one person coming to say "lol sky if falling, been saying that for 20 years! GW too big to sink."
It was literally the second post of this thread.
pretre wrote: Nope. People have been predicting their demise for 20 years; I don't think it's any more likely this time.
Murdius Maximus wrote: I honestly think that in order for GW to save themselves, they need to do the following:
1) Lower prices. You cannot tell me that molds are expensive, because they made that back 100 times within a few months of the product being on the shelves. $82 for a Stormraven, $74 for a Land Raider, $78 (might be a bit off on this one) for three frakkin Centurians is criminal, and it kills interest for people to get into the game because of the expense. It is NOT expensive to produce these models, so a price drop would sell more models and help with profitability.
2) Interact more with the community, and keep open lines of communication. How hard is it to answer simple rules questions or discrepancies? I am all about the roll off, but honestly some rules just need clarification. Drop the cone of silence. Have an active FB page and Twitter feed to answer rules questions or promote new things.
They could also do well with listening to the community for things that the game is trending about and make adjustments as necessary. I could go on with this topic forever, but will close it with, listen to your customers, we know what's up.
3) Make editions last longer. Stop nerfing units, instead add new units to counter 'broken' or 'op' units. I personally believe you should either buff existing units, leave them the same, or do nothing to them at all. This will ensure that the people who spend money on a particular unit now, won't feel like they wasted their money because in the next edition it sucks.
While not really a true fix, as I don't know what their bottom line is, I know that these things are tried and true methods to keep a player base going and bring in new players. GW won't go under, but it is extremely disconcerting to see Kirby announce that he is stepping down, just ahead of dropping what I can see as awful sales figures for the year.
Given a competent CEO stepping into place, this could be done successfully and really turn GW's image and sales around. I would love to see this happen, as I love the 40k universe and the products. Doubtful it will happen, or at least at such a magnificent extent, but I would love to see this happen.
Savageconvoy wrote: What really creeps me out about all of this, is I haven't seen one honest attempt to put a positive spin on this. Not one person coming to say "lol sky if falling, been saying that for 20 years! GW too big to sink."
It was literally the second post of this thread.
pretre wrote: Nope. People have been predicting their demise for 20 years; I don't think it's any more likely this time.
I'm assuming he meant after the Financials thread was linked. Although again if you want to see the white knights out in full force, go check out BOLS' article.
Went to my FGS. Can't put in the L since it's a 1/2 hour drive away. Was shocked to see 6 boxes of Sanctus Reach, I picked it up. I turned it around, saw the $150 price tag and put it down right away. Wanted something 40K, but didn't like the prices. Getting so little for paying so much.
Saw the new Dark Vengeance box set. Picked it up. Saw it was $110. Not bad, but still, pricey. Since I already had it, I can wait to pick it up. Since GW is not offering me anything else to buy, I left the GW section. Maybe I should start a new army. Ooo look the Imperial Knight book. GAH! $60. $170 for one mini? My wife would castrate me.
I went to the other shelf and bought more Star Trek Attack Wing and Star Wars X-Wing. And GW wonders why they are having less sales.
While I maybe be paying the same per cost of mini, I feel like I am getting a better deal with X-Wing and Attack Wing. So money that was about to go to GW went else where.
And GW is still wondering why they are loosing sales. At least my FGS is still getting my money no matter what. Problem is, GW is not now.
Savageconvoy wrote: What really creeps me out about all of this, is I haven't seen one honest attempt to put a positive spin on this. Not one person coming to say "lol sky if falling, been saying that for 20 years! GW too big to sink."
It was literally the second post of this thread.
pretre wrote: Nope. People have been predicting their demise for 20 years; I don't think it's any more likely this time.
I'm assuming he meant after the Financials thread was linked. Although again if you want to see the white knights out in full force, go check out BOLS' article.
Perhaps I misunderstood; if so my mistake of course.
Can you link that thread? I'm having a hard time finding it.
Dulu wrote: Some more anecdotal evidence I'd like to toss into the mix...
Miniwargaming's Youtube channel and website are more popular than ever, and the demand for more 40k content (particularly the Battle Reports) is leading the charge.
Now, this may just be due to the quality of the channel, but if you read the Youtube comments, it seems like there are a lot of new people getting into 40k.
But I agree, the GW price gouging is getting a bit ridiculous..
5 Space Marines for $39 or whatever is a joke.
Strikingscorpion82 is another favorite of mine, can't think of the names but I know of several other channels getting into 40k/fantasy battle reports. It does generate a lot of interest, but its hard to get people engaged when the company supplying said product is failing and barely treading water. I personally would love to see a turn around, as I love this hobby. But, time will tell.
The storm claw box was the best deal they've had in the last year. If you balked at $150, you should see the price if you bought all those models separately. You also get a rule book which would be $85 for the hardcover set or $30-40 on ebay for the paperback. 40k just isn't for you if $150 is too much for 2 armies and a rule book. I know GW's prices are ridiculous but this is one of the few items they make that's fairly priced for what you get.
Savageconvoy wrote: What really creeps me out about all of this, is I haven't seen one honest attempt to put a positive spin on this. Not one person coming to say "lol sky if falling, been saying that for 20 years! GW too big to sink."
It was literally the second post of this thread.
pretre wrote: Nope. People have been predicting their demise for 20 years; I don't think it's any more likely this time.
I'm assuming he meant after the Financials thread was linked. Although again if you want to see the white knights out in full force, go check out BOLS' article.
Perhaps I misunderstood; if so my mistake of course.
Can you link that thread? I'm having a hard time finding it.
It is fair if you want Space Wolf and Ork models plus a campaign book featuring them. Otherwise it is a $150 for a softback rulebook that realistically should retail for $20.
Toofast wrote: The storm claw box was the best deal they've had in the last year. If you balked at $150, you should see the price if you bought all those models separately. You also get a rule book which would be $85 for the hardcover set or $30-40 on ebay for the paperback. 40k just isn't for you if $150 is too much for 2 armies and a rule book. I know GW's prices are ridiculous but this is one of the few items they make that's fairly priced for what you get.
It's still not "fairly priced" when they overcharge to begin with. A deal, sure, but getting a $150,000 car for $110,000 is a deal too, doesn't mean it's not overpriced.
Don't confuse deal with fair, they are two different things. A fair price for Stormclaw would have been probably no more than $100. At $150, it might be a deal but it's still overcosted.
I'm quite convinced that had GW held a company-wide summer sale, instead of releasing 7th edition, this financial report would be vastly different. Who here doesn't have a list of models they'd love to pick up, if only they weren't so expensive. Hell, I'd bet some would buy enough for entire armies if the price was right.
Personally I would start with rules and codexes. I am assuming that most customers are game-players first and won't buy units unless they have the rules to use them. I think GW did themselves great damage by doubling the price of a codex.
Murdius Maximus wrote: I honestly think that in order for GW to save themselves, they need to do the following:
1) Lower prices. You cannot tell me that molds are expensive, because they made that back 100 times within a few months of the product being on the shelves. $82 for a Stormraven, $74 for a Land Raider, $78 (might be a bit off on this one) for three frakkin Centurians is criminal, and it kills interest for people to get into the game because of the expense. It is NOT expensive to produce these models, so a price drop would sell more models and help with profitability.
2) Interact more with the community, and keep open lines of communication. How hard is it to answer simple rules questions or discrepancies? I am all about the roll off, but honestly some rules just need clarification. Drop the cone of silence. Have an active FB page and Twitter feed to answer rules questions or promote new things.
They could also do well with listening to the community for things that the game is trending about and make adjustments as necessary. I could go on with this topic forever, but will close it with, listen to your customers, we know what's up.
3) Make editions last longer. Stop nerfing units, instead add new units to counter 'broken' or 'op' units. I personally believe you should either buff existing units, leave them the same, or do nothing to them at all. This will ensure that the people who spend money on a particular unit now, won't feel like they wasted their money because in the next edition it sucks.
While not really a true fix, as I don't know what their bottom line is, I know that these things are tried and true methods to keep a player base going and bring in new players. GW won't go under, but it is extremely disconcerting to see Kirby announce that he is stepping down, just ahead of dropping what I can see as awful sales figures for the year.
I'm not sure if GW can reduce prices in the short term, it may well be the only thing keeping them afloat. What they should do instead is make the price of entry much, much lower. Say a Skirmish type game with 10-20 miniatures a side for £50-60, basically what their competitors make. Even something like a redone Space Crusade would be a great idea. A £50 price tag is far more likely to bring in people than £500 and once people are interested they may well be more inclined to spend the extra £450.
Customer/community interaction is so blindingly obvious that I'm surprised that GW's share price didn't implode yesterday when Kirby's idiotic preamble was released.
Editions shouldn't last longer as such but they should be replaced by a living rulebook. Have a massive public beta for a completely new, or at least heavily reworked ruleset (one that isn't written by failed Shakespearean monkeys) and after a year or so of massive and in depth player involvement publish a formalised electronic ruleset for free (perhaps with paid for hard copies with shiney artwork) and most importantly keep it updated, relevant and above all balanced. The 'release' ruleset should be updated periodically to provide a firm benchmark but the living rulebook should go on indefinitely to test new mechanics and make sure that everything is working as intended.
I have been musing over this and I think GW have got themselves into a real bind. Their cost base is massive compared to other companies because of their shops. They could have offset this with economies of scale but when confronted with the decision of whether to try to keep up profits by selling volume or raising prices they went for price rises. They hoped that their name and reputation would keep people loyal and felt they had a lot of potential price increase to play with.
Now they have considerable competition they are facing major issues, on the one hand they have a larger cost base and on the other they have falling sales.
We all know that they need to address the issue of pricing, they can't go on holding up sales if people feel they can get equivalent products for less and I think (as I ranted earlier) that with the collapse in sales after 7th ed, the Imperial Knight, etc all of which should have been enormous cash cows they must now see that they have to change course.
However, how can they? They've cut to the bone and lost sales so they rely on high prices. If they make cuts they are going to see a massive cut in profits or losses. There is no way they can easily do that unless they can persuade their shareholders to accept a major restructuring. City funds don't want shares in loss making firms.
Alternatively they could literally close their entire shop network but this would go against the whole ethos of the firm and the whole structure they have. Kirby tried to drive people into the shops by hammering independents. Sensible perhaps in the UK where everyone is within a short drive of a GW unless they live in the Outer Hebrides or something, but surely insane in the US.
They are going to need to make some very tough decisions and get it just right or they are dead in the water, trapped into a spiral of having to ramp up prices to offset falling sales, causing falling sales, ad nauseam. All the while shackled to a retail corpse that is increasingly irrelevant in an internet age.
How do they rebalance their prices and boost sales? I would be bold if I was the new CEO, announce a new direction, bring in new ways to interact with the fanbase, introduce a series of promotions: army of the month with 3 for 2 or something. I would look to close shops in marginal areas too, for example in suburbs and satellites of major cities. However, I think it is cross-roads time and I think they need to recruit incredibly carefully. They need someone whose a specialist in turning around failing but potentially salvageable firms.
In the case of the popularity of the Youtube battle report channels...
If you're a 40k fan, but refuse to buy into the tactics that GW have been using for sales lately, it is a way to stay connected to the community and see what's going on, without having to invest any further yourself or hunt around for a gaming store/club.
I would love to provide citation but unfortunately GW has surpassed the plebeian need to actually survey or study it's actual market to understand if players are staying, going, or if they even exist. For all we know all GW products are purchased by a colonial era aristocrat ghost as party favors.
"At the heart of this new strategy: job cuts and restructuring."
"Kirby also announced his intention to step down as acting CEO. An ad for his replacement will go up the day after Games Workshop's AGM, on September 18th."
As to the question of GW going under, I think that may depend on the new CEO at this point.
As to the question of GW going under, I think that may depend on the new CEO at this point.
A few posters have pointed this out, but many of the issues with GW are more entrenched than just Kirby as CEO. Plus, Kirby is sticking around as chairman, so its not like he won't be influencing decisions.
You'd need to replace more than just one of the jobs Kirby holds to change GW's strategy.
Yonan wrote: Could also link the "why have you left GW and where did you go" thread showing a large exodus of player groups.
This is exactly why I started that thread, to document. (It's my inner historian.)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/603134.page I have to say, it would take a lot to bring me back and even then I wouldn't give up my new games.
Yeah the new games have their grip on me and the groups I'm in too and aren't going anywhere in a hurry. Market share is extremely important in this hobby, just as with video games - CoD sells because it's CoD and people know they can get quick multiplayer games with it. New niche titles just fade away unless they can grab and maintain their playerbase to ensure long term multiplayer ability which Dreadball, Deadzone, X-Wing etc have all done. GW still has enough market share to stay but what they've lost they can't get back I don't think - they can stop losing more though if they try damn hard.
It would take a complete renewal of 40k with actually good rules, no more trashing of fluff for short term profit, better pricing and so on for those of us that have severed connection to think about it. All of which requires GW to listen to us which they've just reiterated that they don't do, so... yeah. Let me introduce you to my friend "Buckley".
sand.zzz wrote: Ultra-capitalism is a terrible thing. It rewards greed and sociopathic behaviors.
I don't see how GW is being rewarded in this case. They're in a decline.
Yes GW is shrinking. Middle management, store operators, and other employees are out of a job.
Customers face rising prices, and shady practices to drive sales. (manipulation of rules, etc.)
The corporate leadership is still going to collect their lion's share no matter what. When it starts to collapse, give yourself an 8 figure severance as you hit the eject button and shout "c ya nerds" to everyone left behind.
A suspicious mind might even suggest Mr. Kirby's moves have been to maximize gains in the short term. What does he care if GW/40k is a pile of ashes 3 years from now? Maybe the ass-kicking he recieved in the Chapter House debacle has soured him to the point of vindictiveness. "If I can't have my way, I'll burn it all down." His attitude and strategy certainly don't appear he has longevity as a priority.
I have already seen claims elsewhere that linking the GW financial statement, or news articles about it, as "anti-GW hate". Literal facts of the companies health are now "hate".
I don't like completely discounting peoples opinions and viewpoints, but sometimes there's no choice when they completely ignore easily digestible facts with obvious causes and ramifications like this. These results are even worse than a lot of us expected, we thought that 7th ed + SMs + IG would have been enough to keep GW going fairly strong - they weren't. If these, GWs top 3 products (right?) couldn't do great things, along with the huge amount of DLC which GW has been trying to push which is basically printing money for anyone (foolish imo) purchasing them then there's no sugar coating it - GW is in trouble.
Davor wrote: Went to my FGS. Can't put in the L since it's a 1/2 hour drive away. Was shocked to see 6 boxes of Sanctus Reach, I picked it up. I turned it around, saw the $150 price tag and put it down right away. Wanted something 40K, but didn't like the prices. Getting so little for paying so much.
Saw the new Dark Vengeance box set. Picked it up. Saw it was $110. Not bad, but still, pricey. Since I already had it, I can wait to pick it up. Since GW is not offering me anything else to buy, I left the GW section. Maybe I should start a new army. Ooo look the Imperial Knight book. GAH! $60. $170 for one mini? My wife would castrate me.
I went to the other shelf and bought more Star Trek Attack Wing and Star Wars X-Wing. And GW wonders why they are having less sales.
While I maybe be paying the same per cost of mini, I feel like I am getting a better deal with X-Wing and Attack Wing. So money that was about to go to GW went else where.
And GW is still wondering why they are loosing sales. At least my FGS is still getting my money no matter what. Problem is, GW is not now.
That is some expensive prices. I just picked up my own Imperial Knight for $140 and the codex for $40 with the same prices lining up with the site meaning that I paid for both the book and the knight for $10 over what you would pay just for the Knight at the store.
Palindrome wrote: I'm not sure if GW can reduce prices in the short term, it may well be the only thing keeping them afloat. What they should do instead is make the price of entry much, much lower. Say a Skirmish type game with 10-20 miniatures a side for £50-60, basically what their competitors make. Even something like a redone Space Crusade would be a great idea. A £50 price tag is far more likely to bring in people than £500 and once people are interested they may well be more inclined to spend the extra £450.
Customer/community interaction is so blindingly obvious that I'm surprised that GW's share price didn't implode yesterday when Kirby's idiotic preamble was released.
Editions shouldn't last longer as such but they should be replaced by a living rulebook. Have a massive public beta for a completely new, or at least heavily reworked ruleset (one that isn't written by failed Shakespearean monkeys) and after a year or so of massive and in depth player involvement publish a formalised electronic ruleset for free (perhaps with paid for hard copies with shiney artwork) and most importantly keep it updated, relevant and above all balanced. The 'release' ruleset should be updated periodically to provide a firm benchmark but the living rulebook should go on indefinitely to test new mechanics and make sure that everything is working as intended.
None of this is going to happen.
Ha, I almost wrote up the same idea in the GW Financial Results thread.
DrRansom's plan to save GW...
1) Develop a Kill Team Skirmish game ASAP, using existing models and a rule-set that points towards a small scale skirmish game. Game should be priced competitively but still profitably and should be sold as many places as possible. After the game is released, start releasing mission packs which expand upon the initial skirmish. This is a short term plan to begin rebuilding the player base.
2) Release minimalist versions of codices and rulebooks, think 5 to 10 dollar codex. No fluff, no artwork, just rules. Offer package deals for new rules and new units, say 50% off Stormtrooper codex when you buy Stormtrooper command and transport. This allows people to quickly and easily expand their collection without lowering the prices of models . You defend the model margin and gain goodwill by cutting codex costs.
3) Announce a global price decrease on core infantry and vehicles, e.g. Tactical Squads and Rhinos. While the units shouldn't be loss-leaders, they should instead be low margin cheap boxes which get sold in volume and encourage players to buy heavy units, with higher margins, to complete the army. Future infantry squads should be designed so that players can buy add-on 'flavor' packages for them. E.g. buy a low cost Tactical Squad and a 'boarding-team' add-on which has new arms for the squad, with shotguns and shields. The Add-On can be high margin single packages.
4) Spend 6 months developing a new large scale game, e.g. hire the old GW developers. Once the initial development is complete, announce it publically as the eternal edition and spend a year developing it via test games at every major board game convention. WH40k is one of the few games out there with the awesome large scale units, this rule set should fully embrace that and streamline the game. This public development stage should also form a chance to build a GW network for FLGS, especially in the US. Eliminate small stores and concentrate on "battle bunkers" and regional sales / hype teams. The regional teams would be responsible for establishing tournaments, painting competitions, and demonstration games (with swag) at local independent stores.
Ideally when all is complete, there is a fun, quick, and very cinematic game to get new players excited and entertain experience players with small tactical missions. Then there is the larger game with cheap infantry, to start suck people into building armies. The real margin comes with the tanks, walkers, and fliers, against which no other company can complete. The large game rule-set is designed to scale nicely between medium and large matches and lets players field massive armies regularly without difficulty. Regional teams let GW build a network and connect with the player base, without having to own anything other than a few large stores in key urban centers.
Despite some easy frags on our wallets : Imperial Knights, 7th edition...
The next financial report will be dreadful.
The "GW had <insert huge release here> yet the numbers are bad" argument comes out every year. I don't really buy it. Sure, it may have some effect but generally every year there is something "big" coming up which will cause splash and get people buy (or so GW hopes).
Please give me a chance of fixing my own post.
GW has released seven codex supplements (incl. Iyanden, Legion of the Damned and Farsight), 2 Imperial Guard codexes (Imperialum Guardia, Tempestus), 3 vintage codexes (Sisters, Inquisition, Knights), Eldars, Tyranids... and Space Marines, AND 7th ed.
I'm not even mentionning the new prices. And the results are still awful.
Orks have been released, Space Wolves too. What's can GW do now? Release Taus again? I don't know about you, but even if they're supposed to be "older codexes" (according to the flying rodent gak insane release schedule) I don't find Necrons and Grey Knights to be that old.
I wouldn't say that 40k doesn't sell anymore, but GW have clearly put all their eggs in the same basket for 2013-2014. If 9th ed WHFB isn't a success, GW's going to be in serious trouble...
Orks have been released, Space Wolves too. What's can GW do now? Release Taus again? I don't know about you, but even if they're supposed to be "older codexes" (according to the flying rodent gak insane release schedule) I don't find Necrons and Grey Knights to be that old.
I wouldn't say that 40k doesn't sell anymore, but GW have clearly put all their eggs in the same basket for 2013-2014.
If you search older threads, you will see that this line has been paraded around forever: -GW was going to sink in 2012, but got bunch of artificial revenue boost from paint range renewal. Next year, they're gone -Ok they didn't sink yet but that's because they released 6th edition 40k and Starter set, their biggest sellers. They've got nothing for the next period. -if it wasn't for their fluke goal with Tau release and Riptide, they would have surely gone under etc.
GW is not going to run out of things to release anytime soon. What they can potentially cash in for this period or the future? -Space wolves and Blood angels -Sisters of Battle -Fantasy 9th edition and Starter kit -more campaign boxes like Storm claw -another Knight is likely on the works, "army" with just 1 model is kinda daft -release a new Army. Kislev for WHFB, or Mechanicus for 40k or something like that. -Smaug. Few people care about the game, but a good looking Dragon is a sure-fire seller. -more supplements. Mordians for AM, Salamanders for Space Marines, Thousand Sons for CSM, Exodites for Eldar etc. -if everything else fails, they know they can always cash in quickly with new edition of Space Hulk.
So on, the idea that they have ran out of potential "Messias titles" is preposterous. Of course, it's true they could always just screw things up (next edition Fantasy a messy flop, outrageous prices, silly cartoony models) but the potential is still there.
Backfire wrote: If you search older threads, you will see that this line has been paraded around forever:
Bollocks imo. Even if you accept people said that (I don't remember it being widely said), there's a huge difference between Tau getting released compared to 7th edition being released + top seller (SMs) being released + second top seller (IG) being released + something unique and expensive being released (IK) all within half a year.
Yonan wrote: I don't like completely discounting peoples opinions and viewpoints, but sometimes there's no choice when they completely ignore easily digestible facts with obvious causes and ramifications like this. These results are even worse than a lot of us expected, we thought that 7th ed + SMs + IG would have been enough to keep GW going fairly strong - they weren't. If these, GWs top 3 products (right?) couldn't do great things, along with the huge amount of DLC which GW has been trying to push which is basically printing money for anyone (foolish imo) purchasing them then there's no sugar coating it - GW is in trouble.
It makes you wonder what things would have been like without the Knights and 7th Edition.
I have to say I assumed 7th Edition would sell 100,000 copies straight off the bat, bringing in £5 Million to make the end of year figures look a lot better. Maybe it did that well but sales elsewhere drooped badly?
Maybe the Knight Titan, for all its enthusiastic reception, actually appeals only to a relatively small number of players.
Murdius Maximus wrote: I honestly think that in order for GW to save themselves, they need to do the following:
1) Lower prices. You cannot tell me that molds are expensive, because they made that back 100 times within a few months of the product being on the shelves. $82 for a Stormraven, $74 for a Land Raider, $78 (might be a bit off on this one) for three frakkin Centurians is criminal, and it kills interest for people to get into the game because of the expense. It is NOT expensive to produce these models, so a price drop would sell more models and help with profitability.
2) Interact more with the community, and keep open lines of communication. How hard is it to answer simple rules questions or discrepancies? I am all about the roll off, but honestly some rules just need clarification. Drop the cone of silence. Have an active FB page and Twitter feed to answer rules questions or promote new things.
They could also do well with listening to the community for things that the game is trending about and make adjustments as necessary. I could go on with this topic forever, but will close it with, listen to your customers, we know what's up.
3) Make editions last longer. Stop nerfing units, instead add new units to counter 'broken' or 'op' units. I personally believe you should either buff existing units, leave them the same, or do nothing to them at all. This will ensure that the people who spend money on a particular unit now, won't feel like they wasted their money because in the next edition it sucks.
While not really a true fix, as I don't know what their bottom line is, I know that these things are tried and true methods to keep a player base going and bring in new players. GW won't go under, but it is extremely disconcerting to see Kirby announce that he is stepping down, just ahead of dropping what I can see as awful sales figures for the year.
Given a competent CEO stepping into place, this could be done successfully and really turn GW's image and sales around. I would love to see this happen, as I love the 40k universe and the products. Doubtful it will happen, or at least at such a magnificent extent, but I would love to see this happen.
The only way I see GW turning things around is by firing every executive in the company & hiring people that actually care. Customers have been unhappy with Games Workshop for years. The prices are completely 100% unsustainable. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, 40K use to be in every FLGS in my area. It was insane. It made magic tournaments looks like nothing. Now? Barely a handful of FLGS carry GW products & 70% of the stores I use to frequent are out of business. As a customer I am seriously at the point where I want to see Games Workshop go under so that another company can purchase the IP & return it to its former glory.
There is a massive difference between a single release just to top up revenue, to match or slightly beat last years turn over.
(Alongside cost cutting of course.)
To releasing a new edition of the best selling game and the the most popular codex book and a host of expencieve kits within 6 months and STILL loose turn over and drop profits by about 50%!
Not to mention how jaded are players going to get when GW plc hit such a high rate of release to try to drive sales up, it completely devalues everything they buy?
The predictions of GW failing have been accurate.Its just no one realized how price insensitive some GW customers actually are.
Lanrak wrote: There is a massive difference between a single release just to top up revenue, to match or slightly beat last years turn over.
(Alongside cost cutting of course.)
To releasing a new edition of the best selling game and the the most popular codex book and a host of expencieve kits within 6 months and STILL loose turn over and drop profits by about 50%!
Codex: Space Marines was released in September 2013, nine months before 7th edition, and it's initial sales boost (if any) was included in horribad first half-year report.
Space Marines are of course biggest seller, however the release did not feature any obvious "omg gotta have that" seller unit. Well other than the Codex itself maybe. Tactical marines, everyone got those already. Stern guard & Vanguard were good kits and probably sold ok, but then Centurions were widely derided. Contrast this to huge buying orgasm of the Tau release where even mundane items like Fire Warriors were sold out (but the new flyers were not - LOL). Now, maybe GW just stocked Space Marines more, I dunno, but clearly there didn't seem to be such a huge demand.
As for 7th edition, I really doubt the book sold anywhere close to 100 000 units, at least during the 2 weeks it was for sale. Reception was lukewarm, and many people were and are holding off for the cheaper, more convenient mini-rulebooks. Nobody I know has even bought the rulebook yet, and most of my gaming group are hardcore GW players. Also, an edition change can also temporarily slow down sales, as people wait & see what the new edition brings out, before going on with planned purchases.
Backfire wrote: If you search older threads, you will see that this line has been paraded around forever:
Bollocks imo. Even if you accept people said that (I don't remember it being widely said), there's a huge difference between Tau getting released compared to 7th edition being released + top seller (SMs) being released + second top seller (IG) being released + something unique and expensive being released (IK) all within half a year.
Yes there is a huge difference - Tau was much more popular than any of those
I do remember. Quick googling turned up many comments for example about paint range. Like this:
"...we should see a corresponding 10-15% increase in revenues. Instead, you are seeing a touch under a 6% increase in revenues (revenues, less royalties as the royalties are unaffected by the price increase in calculating volume sales).
A good portion of that came in the last quarter as well with the paint sales which were recognized in the report (2 million pots sold with an MSRP of £2.30...figure no more than half were sold at wholesale discount of 40% = £3.7 million pounds revenue on the new paints since their release). That ends up being a one time shot in the arm so you could reasonably remove that from the sales - or at the very least the £2.75 which were sold in April alone.
All of those things point to GW shrinking its market. Eventually, the market becomes too small to maintain the overhead."
As it was, GW revenue increased in next financial year...
Kilkrazy wrote: If Space Marines are no longer a money-spinner, then GW really are in trouble.
They still are a money-spinner in the sense that they make up the single biggest portion of GW's revenue. What they weren't this time is a big splash when a new Codex is launched.
Either too many of the players have marine armies or the price of buying a new marine army is too expensive.
Marines sell themselves, in the same way GW should be diversifying it's overall offering, it should be diversifying it's 40k offering by giving non-Marines a lot of attention.
GW is not going to run out of things to release anytime soon. What they can potentially cash in for this period or the future?
-Space wolves and Blood angels
Two minor chapters. I mean, we're comparing with the Space Marines here.
Fantasy is much smaller than 40k. Anyway, I don't think 9th ed is going anywhere. Because people are just pissed by the huge amount of minis, their cost and 90's rules.
We're not playing 8th ed WHFB, but 4.6.12-beta version. The only "major differences" between 4th ed and 8th ed are the random charges, magic with dices and army structure. In my book, changing 6s by dashes in a S/T chart is not a major change, and premesuring isn't either, these are merely house rules that could have been written by my 7 years old nephew. We're still playing a 4.x version, and the 4.0 was released more than 20 years ago.
But, a major overhaul of the WHFB system will probably alienate many older players.
GW could reduce the amount of minis to make WHFB less expensive for beginners, but it will alienate many older players who have large collections.
GW could reduce the prices of all WHFB minis, but it will alienate 40k players and generate less cash.
How can you make quick cash if you lower the minis counts and prices on all Fantasy ranges?
They either continue on the current trend and cut themselves from new customers, or radically change their only other core game and risk losing veteran players. Who are pretty much the only way of recruiting new players, since the advent of the one man stores. GW just can't win on this one.
The launch could be a success, but I would be really surprised if it were a major commercial success that would instantly give the sales a huge boost.
Yeah, sure, going to be major sellers compared to Space Marines, Imperial Guards or Tyranids releases...
Backfire wrote: -another Knight is likely on the works, "army" with just 1 model is kinda daft
Even if it were the case, I don't expect people to buy a lot of them.
Backfire wrote: -release a new Army. Kislev for WHFB, or Mechanicus for 40k or something like that.
Given the previous releases, I really, really doubt about that. Kislev or Mechanicus would need far more than 3 boxes.
Backfire wrote: -Smaug. Few people care about the game, but a good looking Dragon is a sure-fire seller.
Smaug has already been done once, but has been canned because it didn't look like the Smaug of the movie.
Backfire wrote: -more supplements. Mordians for AM, Salamanders for Space Marines, Thousand Sons for CSM, Exodites for Eldar etc.
We're currently talking about a situation were "SM + IG + Tyranids + Eldars + new edition" just isn't enough.
Are people seriously expecting Mordians to do the trick?
Well gee, fourth best year in their history in terms of stock price and dividends fat past four years... Yeah, these guys are doomed. Robust release schedule. Still pumping out
quality figs. Yeah, they cost more, and if you want everything, it'll cost you. Yeah, they've leaned up to get results. Maybe players are leaving the game, but it is still a pretty cool hobby
for those who want to stay, and there are players still playing all over the world. It'll be a long way off before this outfit folds.
ciaotym wrote: Well gee, fourth best year in their history in terms of stock price and dividends fat past four years... Yeah, these guys are doomed. Robust release schedule. Still pumping out
quality figs. Yeah, they cost more, and if you want everything, it'll cost you. Yeah, they've leaned up to get results. Maybe players are leaving the game, but it is still a pretty cool hobby
for those who want to stay, and there are players still playing all over the world. It'll be a long way off before this outfit folds.
Maybe you should read what other people more experienced in the business world are saying about GW.
Head over to the annual report thread and read what posters like Wayshuba have to say on the matter.
Pumping out an accelerated release schedule isn't a sign of health, its a sign of desperation. GW won't close this year, but two years from now wouldn't be surprising if they continue exactly as they currently are.
xraytango wrote: Dr Ransom, please stop taking things from my mind and putting them on the internet. Seriously I'm going to have to start wearing a tin-foil hat.
Ahaha - its funny because somebody up-thread had the same idea I had.
On the subject of boxes: GW should be selling Forgeworld Add-One to as many of its core units as possible. Here, want to buy a Rhino? Maybe upgrade to a heavy armor command variant with this kit!
Cut the price of the Rhino so people get enticed, then deceptively price the upgrades so they seem like a deal, yet deliver high margins.
If GW wanted to get really aggressive, allow 3rd parties to see add-one to different kits. The 3rd party becomes responsible for managing low volume production and development, GW gets the kit sale and a cut from the 3rd party. GW also binds the bitz business to its own website, starving the rest of the market.
Heck, global campaigns can become a part too: new campaign in a Hive World, oh look, each race has a new add-on kit for urban combat. Gotta go out and buy that for your army.
agnosto wrote: That's how companies that sell model kits in Japan do it. Here's a great giant robot for $20 now after all the armor and weapons mods that'll be $60.
I hate that. Forge World does that.
It's a very bad tactic. Want to keep selling piece meal, that is just like selling DLC. Should have been in the game to beginning with. Now people want to do this with miniatures?
ciaotym wrote: Well gee, fourth best year in their history in terms of stock price and dividends fat past four years... Yeah, these guys are doomed. Robust release schedule. Still pumping out
quality figs. Yeah, they cost more, and if you want everything, it'll cost you. Yeah, they've leaned up to get results. Maybe players are leaving the game, but it is still a pretty cool hobby
for those who want to stay, and there are players still playing all over the world. It'll be a long way off before this outfit folds.
Worst sales drop in 10 years.
Everything depends on robust sales.
Share price and dividends have no effect at all on sales.
And oddly enough, shares jumped 28p this morning...up 33p including after market trades.
Investor confidence certainly remains high after that less than stellar earnings report. Which begs the question, who the heck are the people running these institutions that are backing a dying horse? I mean, I play around with stocks but I've never owned more than a few thousand shares of GW stock at any one time when they were stable; now that they're on the decline in earnings, I certainly won't be buying any more.
Kilkrazy wrote: A company's shares can go up if people suspect or hope for a takeover bid.
Takeovers are often launched when a company seems to be doing badly and has lots of cash in the bank.
The purchasing company things they can do better than current management and sees the cash as a good asset.
Investors see the target company's shares are likely to go up when a takeover bid is launched.
That would make sense but for the fact that the amount of shares moving is miniscule; there were a few 1000+ share trades but most of them were less than 200 per trade. Volume was around the 23k mark. My assumption is the 1000 share trades were mostly institutional-related but the smaller bites had to have been single investors.
Kilkrazy wrote: There is always the "bigger fool" principle.
Very true. I just found it odd since we saw the precipitous drop in share price in January based upon a negative mid-year yet a negative full-year seems to have the opposite effect.
agnosto wrote: And oddly enough, shares jumped 28p this morning...up 33p including after market trades.
Investor confidence certainly remains high after that less than stellar earnings report. Which begs the question, who the heck are the people running these institutions that are backing a dying horse? I mean, I play around with stocks but I've never owned more than a few thousand shares of GW stock at any one time when they were stable; now that they're on the decline in earnings, I certainly won't be buying any more.
Id guess the price went up because the second half saw improvement for gw. They recovered some, though admittedly not much, of what they lost in the first half. The disastrous first half took its toll on the share price back in January when the half year report came out, iirc.
I have not been around long enough to have any real bearing on this discussion as i only started in April. That being said i can give my opinion on why some of their sales are down.
The imperial guard release did not have anything that made people want to play imperial guard who already hadn't and their new models really were boring except maybe one or two of them.
I have not seen one taurox yet. no one wants it because it is just hideous.
The Scions are hit and miss for some people. Some like the renaissance aesthetic, while others think they look too different for standard imperial guardsmen and do not fit with their army. I feel like if they made kasyrkins into plastic more people might have bought them, but that is simply because i like kasyrkin more than scions and i have no statistics at all.
The ogryn are again hit and miss with some people. Some people simply do not like their faces at all, i actually find them ok. Their rules are simply terrible.
Bullgryns are another hit or miss kit. Their gear is cobbled together yet it looks like it is somehow reasonably fashioned, again another dichotomy of ideas. Their rules are interesting, they are not very mobile,and they lack good offensive firepower so you are stuck with what is essentially an aegis defense line, but in unit form.
The wyvern has great rules, and looks fine for an artillery piece, but i am simply not even interested in artillery pieces on the board. It makes no sense that an artillery piece that can shoot kilometers away is 200 yards next to the enemy.
Kilkrazy wrote: There is always the "bigger fool" principle.
Very true. I just found it odd since we saw the precipitous drop in share price in January based upon a negative mid-year yet a negative full-year seems to have the opposite effect.
With everything that has come to pass since the 2008 market crash, I'm increasingly convinced that any relation that the stock market has with how the real world works is purely coincidental (this opinion was also supported by the comments of a mutual acquaintance of ours ).
I strongly believe that the January crash of GW's stock was due to them announcing that there would be no payment of dividends more than the actual financial report and since they paid dividends this time, the stock price didn't crash... Tah dah! I'm a financial analyst!
Kilkrazy wrote: There is always the "bigger fool" principle.
Very true. I just found it odd since we saw the precipitous drop in share price in January based upon a negative mid-year yet a negative full-year seems to have the opposite effect.
Backfire I think it was said very sensibly that most shareholders figured months ago the end of year report would be bad and that expectation had been priced into the shares before now.
Investor confidence certainly remains high after that less than stellar earnings report. Which begs the question, who the heck are the people running these institutions that are backing a dying horse?
As the saying goes: Markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent
KommissarKarl wrote: Id guess the price went up because the second half saw improvement for gw. They recovered some, though admittedly not much, of what they lost in the first half. The disastrous first half took its toll on the share price back in January when the half year report came out, iirc.
That'd make sense for someone emotionally invested in the stock but two, consecutive negative reports is "danger Will Robinson" territory for someone with any clinical distance and actually wanting to make money. Today Radio Shack reported their 9th consecutive quarter slide and they are in danger of being delisted because the share price is under $1. GW is half-way there yet continues to increase in share price; that's...odd, is the only way I can put it.
Looking through their report, GW also invested more money into their factory last year than some of their biggest competatiors made in total revenue.
Wargaming is fickle, GW rode the lightning for a long time. There are still areas where its kicking, the key is the community. Its been so easy for so long to hate GW because of their bad prectices and gakky community relations everyone forgets, all those "other games" you play, a lot of the people playing them got their start with Warhammer. GW propped up wargaming when it stagnated in the late 90's. I played a number of products back across the 80s and 90s. Car Wars, Battletech, Robotech, Squad Leader, Ogre....I can go on and on...the point is that to this day, from the time I picked up my first GW mini in 1991/92, its the only game that no matter where I move, no matter what I do I can find people to play and I can continue my love affair with painting plastic dudes.(Who used to be metal and seemed awful expenisve back then too now that I think about it) At the end of the day, people can bitch and moan and say I told you so, but the death of GW will be a hammer blow to the industry. The guys who make army carriers, terrain, painting services, and all the other niche market stuff (Chapterhouse?) there are guys who have been doing this for 20+ years now and its their life. I know wargaming will go on, and in the end, I don't think GW is near death. I've seen worse companies without the robust fan base GW has struggle on for longer. And maybe it will die and come back as a new better company that makes gak in China so that wallets can be pleased and we can make boring "tight" rule sets with no wiggle room.
However, all that leads me to this point. Where I live, GW is doing all right. Not because they are so mega awesome, but because as a community we came together and we showed new guys how to find deals on Ebay, we showed guys how to get some rough and ready paint jobs they could be proud of and where to learn techniques to get better. We play games at the 200/500 pt level all the time, because $50 gets guys into the game (My wife needed two boxes of Eldar to get into Kill Team, I think she was like $60-70). If a rule is bad, and we all agree it is bad, we throw it out or change it. We've even managed to get a small Battletech campaign going and a couple weeks ago, we played Car Wars for 8 straight hours.
All I see here is a bunch of complaining about things you can't change, and no one focusing on what you can. I know GW and 40K generate a lot of emotional responses, but here in the 40K general discussion area, isn't it about time those of you who hate GW and "will never go back" to them just give it up. Go find something you like and enjoy it. Truth is, we can't change GW. Clearly, for 8 straight years we've been voting with our wallets and it hasn't changed them. But do I think thye are going under? Probably not, and but I sure hope I finish this Ork army before they do.
I have already seen claims elsewhere that linking the GW financial statement, or news articles about it, as "anti-GW hate". Literal facts of the companies health are now "hate".
So we pretty much have the apologists using this immortal line from Homer Simpson...
"...and a lone figure with a thundering of hooves and a glint on the armour that would destroy several retina cells if you looked at it directly. A figure clad in a breastplate that can give you and unwelcome suntan just by its mere presence appeared on the horizon."
A new CEO won't be changing a whole lot with the current board remaining as it is. I'd also doubt they'd bring in a new CEO that would run counter to how the current board and chairman are running things.
Chances are, since they hire for attitude not on the basis of their accomplishments/CV, they'll promote from within and continue the YES-MAN INC downward spiral.
I'd love, really love to be wrong on this one and hope that I am. I hope they hire someone who knows how to run a business, actually believes in connecting with consumers, and even doing a bit of market research...you know, dabble in what makes multi-billion dollar companies successful.
agnosto wrote: Chances are, since they hire for attitude not on the basis of their accomplishments/CV, they'll promote from within and continue the YES-MAN INC downward spiral.
I'd love, really love to be wrong on this one and hope that I am. I hope they hire someone who knows how to run a business, actually believes in connecting with consumers, and even doing a bit of market research...you know, dabble in what makes multi-billion dollar companies successful.
It will be Alan "The hobby is buying our product" Merrett.
Speaking as someone who thinks it'd be a terrible shame (just pre-empting accusations of being a "hater") for the company to be ruined by cluelessness at executive level, it seems to me like even post-Kirby there won't be much change due to the culture within the boardroom. As things are a Kirby clone sounds like the most likely successor.
With that in mind, would there be any realistic prospect of the board getting a complete shakeup? Is there any procedure for such a thing to happen if, for example, things get worse and it can be shown that this is a result of mismanagement at that level?
Ask Steve Jobs circa the late 80's what a board can do. I would guess the stock still trending up is due to him stepping down.
It's not going up due to take over rumors. They have cash on hand and it appears little debt. Companies that have a singular off year don't get bought, companies that have off YEARS get bought. Ask Sprint.
GW isn't going under. 40k isn't in trouble. EBay and Bartertown are still crazy busy lots to be had there. Then factor in Chinese recasters who I think are the ones really hurting the overall sales numbers. I'm not judging anyone who buys them by any means. I get it.
Price and value is in the eye of each consumer. The guy making 24k a year may buy all his stuff from his local shop. Where I know a Fortune 500 DM that makes 5 times that who wont buy anything but recasts. He wants bang for his buck quantity wise.
So for all the GW doomsayers I have bad news. They will likely be fine. For all of us GW apologists/fanboys (like myself) we need to acknowledge things need to change obviously. More people need to see the value, I say that because lowering prices doesn't just fix things. Anyone who works in sales management knows this. It's hard to outsell what you lost by lowering prices.
This was a below average annual report not a disastrous one like some say. Company still made 10 million pounds on 120 million pounds. Not great, but a far cry from a company on the brink of "going under".
agnosto wrote: Chances are, since they hire for attitude not on the basis of their accomplishments/CV, they'll promote from within and continue the YES-MAN INC downward spiral.
I'd love, really love to be wrong on this one and hope that I am. I hope they hire someone who knows how to run a business, actually believes in connecting with consumers, and even doing a bit of market research...you know, dabble in what makes multi-billion dollar companies successful.
It will be Alan "The hobby is buying our product" Merrett.
I'm calling it now.
Nah It's Kevin Rountree. He's like a stick of rock. Snap him in half, and he's got kirby man written in the middle.
lobbywatson wrote: EBay and Bartertown are still crazy busy lots to be had there.
How is that good for GW? Doesn't that kind of imply that people are leaving and selling their stuff? Especially if they're trading it for money rather than other product on swapshops.
I took my first proper look at the space marine 'resell market' on ebay this week and was amazed by the amount of stuff with 99p starting bids, but still not selling.
lobbywatson wrote: EBay and Bartertown are still crazy busy lots to be had there.
How is that good for GW? Doesn't that kind of imply that people are leaving and selling their stuff? Especially if they're trading it for money rather than other product on swapshops.
It just shows their is plenty of interest in the game and owning GW stuff even if it isn't purchased from GW. Obviously it doesn't help GW directly but it is a consumer they could gain if they took steps to make that happen.
It just shows their is plenty of interest in the game and owning GW stuff even if it isn't purchased from GW. Obviously it doesn't help GW directly but it is a consumer they could gain if they took steps to make that happen.
Which is purely anecdotal.
The evidence we do have though shows a decline in revenue. That means there are less people buying their stuff than before.
lobbywatson wrote: EBay and Bartertown are still crazy busy lots to be had there.
How is that good for GW? Doesn't that kind of imply that people are leaving and selling their stuff? Especially if they're trading it for money rather than other product on swapshops.
It just shows their is plenty of interest in the game and owning GW stuff even if it isn't purchased from GW. Obviously it doesn't help GW directly but it is a consumer they could gain if they took steps to make that happen.
Except you might find that it is only selling to people who already are into the game. In which case it's a net loss of a customer.
lobbywatson wrote: EBay and Bartertown are still crazy busy lots to be had there.
How is that good for GW? Doesn't that kind of imply that people are leaving and selling their stuff? Especially if they're trading it for money rather than other product on swapshops.
It just shows their is plenty of interest in the game and owning GW stuff even if it isn't purchased from GW. Obviously it doesn't help GW directly but it is a consumer they could gain if they took steps to make that happen.
Except you might find that it is only selling to people who already are into the game. In which case it's a net loss of a customer.
Well don't leave out the Chinese recasters in all of this. They have definitely seen a large increase in sales. On one of them you can see the amount of orders placed in the last 6 months. Top 5 Eldar selling units alone had over 100 orders each. Yahoo has a large stake in them if you'd like to check out who I am talking about. Plenty of interest in the game do not think their isn't.
Part of the GW business credo is "go on forever". I think they may become obsolete in the year 42,000. Meanwhile, the stock probably went up because they are still
making buckets of money and probably running their equipment close to optimal output. They are still one of the big dogs in the industry (build the models-play a game).
Welcome to the Tiffany's of gaming product. Strut next time you take your models to a game.
That's from just one recaster though Azreal. The main one I ahh... know of... has had such high demand despite their storefront being shutdown that there has been an increasingly large delay on orders being shipped. GWs ridiculous prices make it so profitable to recast, and so attractive for players to buy recasts at 1/3 the price (some kits 1/10 the price) that it's ramped up significantly down here at least.
That could just be part of the regional pricing thing, but before they quit during 6th my local group spent a good 4/5 of their 40k monies like that.
Probably worth mentioning in this thread (already been discussed in the Gen Discussion one) that the share price went up by a princely 5% today, it's hardly sky rocketed.
GW is substantially owned by institutional investors and staff, not the sort to take flight easily, all of those were scared off by the unexpectedly poor interim report in January.
Vermis wrote: I took my first proper look at the space marine 'resell market' on ebay this week and was amazed by the amount of stuff with 99p starting bids, but still not selling.
I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from ebay. Most of the stuff on ebay is garbage, and a lot of models don't sell (or don't sell for much) because nobody thinks it's worth the trouble to strip the paint, clean up the glue puddles, etc. Quality (especially NIB) stuff isn't going unsold at "almost free" prices.
Yep, I find new is worth a fair premium over second hand as I'm mainly in it for the modeling. Well, purely in it for the modeling now that the game has become unplayable. Buying the new 40k bundles results in for example 10 SMTac marines for $US24 which is quite reasonable.
Nah from what I've seen on Dakka and elsewhere there have been a lot of new SM armies and addition of centurions and other new stuff to existing SM armies so the release helped their numbers substantially imo. As a GW "hater" the SMs were the last release I took part in, with a substantial buy in:
SM 'dex (last decent 'dex imo, even IG whilst balanced was bland-as bro) 3x SMSF's 3x SMSF Ultras 1x SW Battleforce 2x Vanguards, 2x Sternguards, 2x Death companies 1x Sanguinary, 1x DA Vets
I'd like my arm and a leg back, but with onselling parts of it at GW AU retail prices it covered a fair part of the cost thankfully, and I had no SMs before it so the bundles workedreally well for me. My point being I guess that yes, SMs *did* sell well as expected of the flagship faction, meaning sales across the board must have been pretty damn terrible.
Peregrine wrote: I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from ebay. Most of the stuff on ebay is garbage, and a lot of models don't sell (or don't sell for much) because nobody thinks it's worth the trouble to strip the paint, clean up the glue puddles, etc. Quality (especially NIB) stuff isn't going unsold at "almost free" prices.
Fair enough, I wasn't used to it. But I noticed the hike when I looked at the SoB section...
Azreal13 wrote: Probably worth mentioning in this thread (already been discussed in the Gen Discussion one) that the share price went up by a princely 5% today, it's hardly sky rocketed.
GW is substantially owned by institutional investors and staff, not the sort to take flight easily, all of those were scared off by the unexpectedly poor interim report in January.
Agreed about the not taking flight easily. Besides that, share price is meaningless if the volume is low; and the volume on each of the trades for that stock today were very very low. The trades today were:
So, when you look at the number of shares, you can tell that these aren't institutional investors. Now, they might have been employees.... The 6000 share trade did represent about $60k US.
The share price adjusted for the drop in profits back in January. The second half year saw revenue rise by £3m, which the price has reacted to positively. That's what I would assume anyway, I'm no expert.
Azreal13 wrote: So, how does 500 orders for Eldar stuff in the last 6 months translate into millions in dropped profits?
Why now, recasters have been around since Second Edition?
Well allow me to do some math for you. One of those was the Eldar Wraithknight. 115 dollar kit with 123 orders. 14k if all purchased from GW. 7k if all purchased through LGS's. This is one vender on this website. I know of 3. This only shows 6 months of orders. The Wraithknight is over a year old. So double it.
The Imperial Knight they had on sale 3 weeks after release. The top 3 vendors sold 203 of them. 25k if sold though GW, 12.5k if sold through LGS's. Once again 1 website. This website actually had the rip offs second to another site I knew of.
Now think about this 55 Reaver Titans. At 650 American. That's 37k. One vendor from one website out of three.
87 MKIII 30 man Tact squads at 256 American. 28k.
I'm at 100k on 4 items admittedly high end ones to shorten my example. This doesn't include the 50 other often purchased skus. SM squads, jetbikes squads, Riptides, Heldrakes, DKoK, HH stuff. It goes on and on.
This is 1 website. Between all 3 is it 10 million pounds. I doubt it but I bet I could add up 3 million without trying.
Recasters have never been as popular as they are now. End of story. Ask around if you do have friends that actively buy hobby stuff. Ask them where. Ask them if they know. You might be shocked.
All.im saying is Chinese recasters are making a serious dent. That's all I'm saying. The interest in the game is still there.
Recasters have never been as popular as they are now. End of story. Ask around if you do have friends that actively buy hobby stuff. Ask them where. Ask them if they know. You might be shocked.
Azreal13 wrote: So, how does 500 orders for Eldar stuff in the last 6 months translate into millions in dropped profits?
Why now, recasters have been around since Second Edition?
Well allow me to do some math for you. One of those was the first Eldar Wraithknight. 115 dollar kit with 123 orders. 14k if all purchased from GW. 7k if all purchased through LGS's. This is one vender on this website. I know of 3. This only shows 6 months of orders. The Wraithknight is over a year old. So double it.
The Imperial Knight they had on sale 3 weeks after release. The top 3 vendors sold 203 of them. 25k if sold though GW, 12.5k if sold through LGS's. Once again 1 website. This website actually had the rip offs second to another site I knew of.
Now think about this 55 Reaver Titans. At 650 American. That's 37k. One vendor from one website out of three.
87 MKIII 30 man Tact squads at 256 American. 28k.
I'm at 100k on 4 items admittedly high end ones to shorten my example. This doesn't include the 50 other often purchased skus. SM squads, jetbikes squads, Riptides, Heldrakes, DKoK, HH stuff. It goes on and on.
This is 1 website. Between all 3 is it 10 million pounds. I doubt it but I bet I could add up 3 million without trying.
Recasters have never been as popular as they are now. End of story. Ask around if you do have friends that actively buy hobby stuff. Ask them where. Ask them if they know. You might be shocked.
Recasters make a crap ton of money. The Reaver Titan you mentioned, is made by one guy. That one guy sells so many reaver titans to suppliers and its so easy to make (apparently). Most recasters just do it in their spare time then send them off to others to sell and seem to be swimming in cash. Within days one of the major recasters got their hands on the limited edition shield generator. Weeks later it was up for preorder and within a month or so its for sale. They are very on to it and quick to catch on. Once its set up, its a very easy side business I hear. They definitely rake in the cash big time.
Contrary to popular belief the big FW kits arent their best sellers either. Its the normal GW stuff that sells the most. However most people only admit to buying the expensive FW stuff recasted. So who knows how many SPace marines you see are recasts or not...
Recasters have never been as popular as they are now. End of story. Ask around if you do have friends that actively buy hobby stuff. Ask them where. Ask them if they know. You might be shocked.
Why might that be?
Why are they more popular? I eluded to that in a earlier post.any consumers don't see the value. So they look for cheaper options. Now that Chinese recasts are readily available and easy to find they are more popular. A year ago I didn't know anyone coping to buying them. Now I know several. I buy knock off fitness gear from this site. So I've seen the 40k portion of it grow at a amazing rate in the last year.
Swastakowey wrote: Contrary to popular belief the big FW kits arent their best sellers either. Its the normal GW stuff that sells the most. However most people only admit to buying the expensive FW stuff recasted. So who knows how many SPace marines you see are recasts or not...
What do you base this off? You can get the great FW marines for not much more than the standard tac marines which both look better in general and have less casting problems due to being made of less parts, not to mention you can get tac marines for the same price as recast through bundles at US discounters. I don't know anyone that's bought recast basic GW troops but plenty that pick up FW marines, DKK, elysians and so on. Some buy Russes and Predators, but they're more likely to go for FW variants there too.
Azreal13 wrote: So, how does 500 orders for Eldar stuff in the last 6 months translate into millions in dropped profits?
Why now, recasters have been around since Second Edition?
Well allow me to do some math for you. One of those was the first Eldar Wraithknight. 115 dollar kit with 123 orders. 14k if all purchased from GW. 7k if all purchased through LGS's. This is one vender on this website. I know of 3. This only shows 6 months of orders. The Wraithknight is over a year old. So double it.
The Imperial Knight they had on sale 3 weeks after release. The top 3 vendors sold 203 of them. 25k if sold though GW, 12.5k if sold through LGS's. Once again 1 website. This website actually had the rip offs second to another site I knew of.
Now think about this 55 Reaver Titans. At 650 American. That's 37k. One vendor from one website out of three.
87 MKIII 30 man Tact squads at 256 American. 28k.
I'm at 100k on 4 items admittedly high end ones to shorten my example. This doesn't include the 50 other often purchased skus. SM squads, jetbikes squads, Riptides, Heldrakes, DKoK, HH stuff. It goes on and on.
This is 1 website. Between all 3 is it 10 million pounds. I doubt it but I bet I could add up 3 million without trying.
Recasters have never been as popular as they are now. End of story. Ask around if you do have friends that actively buy hobby stuff. Ask them where. Ask them if they know. You might be shocked.
As I'm already aware of a number of people who have bought recast, and where they came from, as with many things, I doubt if I'd be shocked.
You're still utterly failing to make a compelling case that in the last year recasters have somehow experienced some huge upsurge in business from previous years to explain that they've had any greater impact than before.
Unless, as has already been hinted at, more people are choosing to buy from recasters because they are disillusioned with GW and weren't going to buy from them anyway? In which case the sale was lost, and it is probably better for GW that the money to China or Russia than to supporting the growth of competing products.
Azreal13 wrote: Unless, as has already been hinted at, more people are choosing to buy from recasters because they are disillusioned with GW and weren't going to buy from them anyway? In which case the sale was lost, and it is probably better for GW that the money to China or Russia than to supporting the growth of competing products.
Yep, a large part of it is not wanting to reward GW with any money for their bad buiness practices. They'll pirate codices and buy recasts to stop supporting GW whilst still being able to either game or just collect 40k models though. FW primarchs for example are pretty damn sexy models and a lot would like to just collect them even if they don't play, and recasts make that a viable option. As I mentioned earlier, a lot of people I know have basically completely severed themselves from GW and don't even buy recasts anymore, that's how much GW has damaged their player relations, the fluff and the game which should be a huge concern for GW - as stated elsewhere, apathy about 40k from (ex-)players is the worst possible thing for GW.
Swastakowey wrote: Contrary to popular belief the big FW kits arent their best sellers either. Its the normal GW stuff that sells the most. However most people only admit to buying the expensive FW stuff recasted. So who knows how many SPace marines you see are recasts or not...
What do you base this off? You can get the great FW marines for not much more than the standard tac marines which both look better in general and have less casting problems due to being made of less parts, not to mention you can get tac marines for the same price as recast through bundles at US discounters. I don't know anyone that's bought recast basic GW troops but plenty that pick up FW marines, DKK, elysians and so on. Some buy Russes and Predators, but they're more likely to go for FW variants there too.
I know a guy who both makes some recasts but sells a lot of them. I was actually asked once to go to china and help out with it. But I definitely wont be a part of something like that for obvious reasons.
So I have seen some pretty cool stuff and learnt a fair bit about that little bit of the world. Where I am FW is more popular as well, but GW standard products sell a lot more than FW stuff. So what they do is they have a lot of FW stuff sitting there and order them in bulk whenever its needed and the GW stuff just flows through as it sells enough to order it as its needed.
So if you order a GW bit you are likely to get it really quickly, if you order a FW bit and you are unlucky you may have to wait a few months at most while they quickly cast it up for you etc.
I'm pretty sure I know the guy you're referring to, and you know the source of player purchases I'm referring to. It could just be different locations being discusses and different priorities of the players there, or a knowledge gap for one or both of us. Regardless, I just thought I'd ask since it conflicted with what I saw, always happy to hear alternative experiences like that ; )
edit: if the relevance here seems off topic, I thought I'd clarify it's regarding the impact of recasts on GWs profitability which has a direct impact on whether or not they're "going under". But it's hard to get solid data on this so we just go off personal experiences and try to aggregate them to get a better idea.
Azreal13 wrote: So, how does 500 orders for Eldar stuff in the last 6 months translate into millions in dropped profits?
Why now, recasters have been around since Second Edition?
Well allow me to do some math for you. One of those was the first Eldar Wraithknight. 115 dollar kit with 123 orders. 14k if all purchased from GW. 7k if all purchased through LGS's. This is one vender on this website. I know of 3. This only shows 6 months of orders. The Wraithknight is over a year old. So double it.
The Imperial Knight they had on sale 3 weeks after release. The top 3 vendors sold 203 of them. 25k if sold though GW, 12.5k if sold through LGS's. Once again 1 website. This website actually had the rip offs second to another site I knew of.
Now think about this 55 Reaver Titans. At 650 American. That's 37k. One vendor from one website out of three.
87 MKIII 30 man Tact squads at 256 American. 28k.
I'm at 100k on 4 items admittedly high end ones to shorten my example. This doesn't include the 50 other often purchased skus. SM squads, jetbikes squads, Riptides, Heldrakes, DKoK, HH stuff. It goes on and on.
This is 1 website. Between all 3 is it 10 million pounds. I doubt it but I bet I could add up 3 million without trying.
Recasters have never been as popular as they are now. End of story. Ask around if you do have friends that actively buy hobby stuff. Ask them where. Ask them if they know. You might be shocked.
As I'm already aware of a number of people who have bought recast, and where they came from, as with many things, I doubt if I'd be shocked.
You're still utterly failing to make a compelling case that in the last year recasters have somehow experienced some huge upsurge in business from previous years to explain that they've had any greater impact than before.
Unless, as has already been hinted at, more people are choosing to buy from recasters because they are disillusioned with GW and weren't going to buy from them anyway? In which case the sale was lost, and it is probably better for GW that the money to China or Russia than to supporting the growth of competing products.
1. Because believe it or not 6th was a popular edition. The game did well. Price obviously drove certain consumers away.
2. I watched it. I watched it grow into what it is now. There used to be 4 vendors for 40k stuff ln the 1 website. Now there are over 20. Its a thriving business.
I know you probably just want to doomsay and just wish death on the evil GW empire. I however look at root causes.
Value and price. Its either to expensive for some to justify financially or they don't see the value. That's all. You can't find someone that's been actually treated bad by GW ( employees excluded). You have a legit issue with a kit they replace it.
GW isn't coming to your house and raping your sister. However they don't encourage a sense of equality with the community though. As a fan boy I have to cop to that. We are customers and that is all. For some people they need a warm and fuzzy feeling for the value. For some its quantity. For some its quality. Everyone has their reason. 3 recasters I have followed have grown. I've watched it. I'm sure other have too.
Yonan wrote: I'm pretty sure I know the guy you're referring to, and you know the source of player purchases I'm referring to. It could just be different locations being discusses and different priorities of the players there, or a knowledge gap for one or both of us. Regardless, I just thought I'd ask since it conflicted with what I saw, always happy to hear alternative experiences like that ; )
edit: if the relevance here seems off topic, I thought I'd clarify it's regarding the impact of recasts on GWs profitability which has a direct impact on whether or not they're "going under". But it's hard to get solid data on this so we just go off personal experiences and try to aggregate them to get a better idea.
I hope you dont know him haha. But yea as I siad, it was a shock to me because FW is popular in my area for recasts, not GW standard. I can look into it over the next few months and see, but I have been buying next to no GW models for a while so its all a bit meh for me now.
On that last bit, there is a lot of misinformation in terms of recasts. Even those selling it in reality know little of where some of it comes from and so on. Crazy place.
Azreal13 wrote: So, how does 500 orders for Eldar stuff in the last 6 months translate into millions in dropped profits?
Why now, recasters have been around since Second Edition?
Well allow me to do some math for you. One of those was the first Eldar Wraithknight. 115 dollar kit with 123 orders. 14k if all purchased from GW. 7k if all purchased through LGS's. This is one vender on this website. I know of 3. This only shows 6 months of orders. The Wraithknight is over a year old. So double it.
The Imperial Knight they had on sale 3 weeks after release. The top 3 vendors sold 203 of them. 25k if sold though GW, 12.5k if sold through LGS's. Once again 1 website. This website actually had the rip offs second to another site I knew of.
Now think about this 55 Reaver Titans. At 650 American. That's 37k. One vendor from one website out of three.
87 MKIII 30 man Tact squads at 256 American. 28k.
I'm at 100k on 4 items admittedly high end ones to shorten my example. This doesn't include the 50 other often purchased skus. SM squads, jetbikes squads, Riptides, Heldrakes, DKoK, HH stuff. It goes on and on.
This is 1 website. Between all 3 is it 10 million pounds. I doubt it but I bet I could add up 3 million without trying.
Recasters have never been as popular as they are now. End of story. Ask around if you do have friends that actively buy hobby stuff. Ask them where. Ask them if they know. You might be shocked.
As I'm already aware of a number of people who have bought recast, and where they came from, as with many things, I doubt if I'd be shocked.
You're still utterly failing to make a compelling case that in the last year recasters have somehow experienced some huge upsurge in business from previous years to explain that they've had any greater impact than before.
Unless, as has already been hinted at, more people are choosing to buy from recasters because they are disillusioned with GW and weren't going to buy from them anyway? In which case the sale was lost, and it is probably better for GW that the money to China or Russia than to supporting the growth of competing products.
1. Because believe it or not 6th was a popular edition. The game did well. Price obviously drove certain consumers away.
2. I watched it. I watched it grow into what it is now. There used to be 4 vendors for 40k stuff ln the 1 website. Now there are over 20. Its a thriving business.
I know you probably just want to doomsay and just wish death on the evil GW empire. I however look at root causes.
Value and price. Its either to expensive for some to justify financially or they don't see the value. That's all. You can't find someone that's been actually treated bad by GW ( employees excluded). You have a legit issue with a kit they replace it.
GW isn't coming to your house and raping your sister. However they don't encourage a sense of equality with the community though. As a fan boy I have to cop to that. We are customers and that is all. For some people they need a warm and fuzzy feeling for the value. For some its quantity. For some its quality. Everyone has their reason. 3 recasters I have followed have grown. I've watched it. I'm sure other have too.
1. Really? Then why was 7th released after only two years?
2. Anecdotal evidence counts for naught. I'm also aware of some vendors on a website that used to sell recasts that now sell legitimate, non-GW, product, or have ceased to add new products for some time, or have simply disappeared.
Kindly, if you're going to accuse me of "doomsaying" and other hyperbolic nonsense, at least do me the courtesy of actually becoming acquainted with my general arguments - I've been citing poor value as the key issue with GW's retail offering for literally fething years on here, so kindly don't quote it at me like it's a revolutionary concept you've just plucked from the aether. Neither is "copping they don't encourage a sense of equality? (wouldn't be my choice of word, but, meh) with the community." For the nature of the business that they are in, and the product they're selling, to not do so is utterly backwards, they don't have to mean it, just act like they do, because it makes sense for them to be perceived in a certain way.
I've never quite understood people leaping to defense of GW's actions.
They got rid of bitz service (many moons ago) and all specialists games, shrunk focus to pumping up 40k almost solely, and have reduced the White Dwarf from a hobby magazine to a 4-times-a-month catalog. They've increased prices at a margin typically many order higher than inflation, first through yearly price rises which even they realized were largely unpopular and so they changed to raising prices during codex releases. They've cut down on edition lengths and applied on the minimal levels of chance to new materials. They've broken down kits into smaller units and disguise price rises there, whilst continually lowering the points of units in all books so that an army in 4th might only be worth ~70% of the points one in 7th is. They've gotten rid of any creative content- all original scenery has been replaced by Citadel-Brand items...you wouldn't even know the same company had an article about making a Space Marine landspeeder from a deodorant stick.
They sued a book maker because they thought they owned the words "Space Marine." Their court case shows they think they own basic concepts, ranging from general sci-fi themes to historical references.
They say they don't do market research, admitting it proudly. They actively ignore you, me, anyone who has interest in them. They say that their customer's favorite part of the GW Hobby is buying their models. They couldn't care less about any of their customer's opinions. People who back them up at every turn, I wouldn't be surprised if Tom Kirby patted them on the back and said "hey, you're a loyal guy? You wouldn't mind paying a little more to deal with these neckbeards not buying, amirite?"
And the list goes on...and it really shouldn't.
I think 40k is a great product but I've never understood why this requires equating GW to deserving special treatment.
lobbywatson wrote: All.im saying is Chinese recasters are making a serious dent. That's all I'm saying. The interest in the game is still there.
I disagree. <LONG!>
1. People who buy recasts would not buy GW products if you took the recasts away, generally
People buying recasts are actively taking the risk of being scammed or given an inferior product, basically because they aren't willing to pay GW's exorbitant rates. I really think that if the recasts didn't exist, people would just slink away upset and not add to their armies. Of the people I've seen who buy recasts, it seems like very few of them are buying recasts instead of buying the GW equivalent. Instead, they made the decision to not buy the GW product first and either later find the recasts excitedly, use the recasts as a way to keep playing when they can't really afford the things they want, or have already dead-set themselves against buying from GW regardless of the availability of recasts.
2. Recasts are not as big a dent in the market as you think
Logic dictates this. Sure there's more or whatever, but it really doesn't seem like recasts are a big deal. I mean, if recasts were costing GW massive amount of money, they would actually spend effort to fight them (It's like, soooo easy to find them these days, even with no knowledge and a basic google search.) The fact that GW has made virtually no major effort against the recast websites really suggests that the legal fees would actually cost them more money than the recast websites are draining from them.
Also, it doesn't seem like recasts are hugely mainstream or standard. But this is my personal experience, take it or leave it.
3. Do you smell it? It's an excuse!
*sniff*
Seriously, "Chinese re-casters and their evil powers" must be one of the most desperate excuses to try to justify the hurt GW's suffering. Doesn't an angry fanbase, or over-pricing, or bad rules, or all the other stuffs just seem more likely than evil chinese recasters? Doesn't it seem like the perfect excuse too? You can pretend like recasting is much bigger than it is, that it's having some really awful effect, and blame the people buying recasts or whatever. I wonder if this'll become popular.
4. Yeah, I'm a negative Nancy.
HERE! People who feel obliged to respond to my posts glibly, here you go, I've recognized the argument some of you might be thinking of making...
"You so negative. I no like negatives. You be bad, big bad negative guy. We be positive here. Why you so negative?"
...so now, let's not go into this line of thinking. Please disagree with me with something else, if you will.
(No offense to you personally, Muscular-festive guy. This just seems to come up all the friggin' time, always by random people who have nothing else to say.)
lobbywatson wrote: 1. Because believe it or not 6th was a popular edition. The game did well. Price obviously drove certain consumers away.
This is demonstrably false.
6th was out for about two years. First year saw zero real growth in revenue, and the second year saw an 11 percent real decline in revenue (nominal numbers being 2.9% and -8.2%, respectively).
I know you probably just want to doomsay and just wish death on the evil GW empire. I however look at root causes.
I like how you begin with a straw man argument, and then follow it up with a misunderstanding of causation and correlation.
You say you look at root causes, but you have nothing backing up your assertion that piracy is a cause of GW's declining revenue.
3 recasters I have followed have grown. I've watched it. I'm sure other have too.
This is true. Well, maybe not about the three of them, but a particular one from Shanghai has doubled his staff in the last year (from 2 to 4 employees).
Vermis wrote: I took my first proper look at the space marine 'resell market' on ebay this week and was amazed by the amount of stuff with 99p starting bids, but still not selling.
I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from ebay. Most of the stuff on ebay is garbage, and a lot of models don't sell (or don't sell for much) because nobody thinks it's worth the trouble to strip the paint, clean up the glue puddles, etc. Quality (especially NIB) stuff isn't going unsold at "almost free" prices.
Yeah, when I started the GW Hobby back in the day, my first thought was "man, this stuff is pretty expensive, I'm going to buy my stuff mostly second hand, it's much cheaper". And it was, and there were occasional good deals, but I found out that much of the stuff I bought was assembled, painted or based in a way which was very unsatisfactory for me and getting it the way I wanted was often extremely time-consuming. And despite me being chronically cash-strapped, what I was even more short of was time. So these days if I need something, I often just waltz into my FLGS and buy it, sure it costs more but convenience is more important for me nowadays.
Yeah, I've heard that rumor. For the last 10 years. Would be the third SoB codex in what... 4 years?
Didn't say that they will, I said that they can. After all, if everything else is already updated, why not? See Dark Eldar and Tau - previously neglected armies can be big sellers once their range is updated.
Fantasy is much smaller than 40k. Anyway, I don't think 9th ed is going anywhere. Because people are just pissed by the huge amount of minis, their cost and 90's rules.
We're not playing 8th ed WHFB, but 4.6.12-beta version. The only "major differences" between 4th ed and 8th ed are the random charges, magic with dices and army structure. In my book, changing 6s by dashes in a S/T chart is not a major change, and premesuring isn't either, these are merely house rules that could have been written by my 7 years old nephew. We're still playing a 4.x version, and the 4.0 was released more than 20 years ago.
But, a major overhaul of the WHFB system will probably alienate many older players.
GW could reduce the amount of minis to make WHFB less expensive for beginners, but it will alienate many older players who have large collections.
GW could reduce the prices of all WHFB minis, but it will alienate 40k players and generate less cash.
How can you make quick cash if you lower the minis counts and prices on all Fantasy ranges?
Don't need to do that. All you need to do is to have decent ruleset with some major gripes fixed, and larger infantry boxes which offer better discount per mini than current 5 to 10 miniature boxes. And glorious looking starter set like Isle of Blood.
Backfire wrote: -release a new Army. Kislev for WHFB, or Mechanicus for 40k or something like that.
Given the previous releases, I really, really doubt about that. Kislev or Mechanicus would need far more than 3 boxes.
Yes they would. However, now that Hobbit probably won't suck development anymore and most 40k ranges are quite complete, it is well within their capabilities, if they decide to do it. Personally I don't think they're going there just yet, but it is an option.
Backfire wrote: -Smaug. Few people care about the game, but a good looking Dragon is a sure-fire seller.
We're currently talking about a situation were "SM + IG + Tyranids + Eldars + new edition" just isn't enough.
Are people seriously expecting Mordians to do the trick?
Would you please get over the whole "omg new edition didn't do the trick" thing? The book was on sale for ONE week (two if counting preorders) during that financial year. They probably generated more revenue selling out Stormclaw, than those 2 weeks of main rulebook.
Once again, the point is not that GW will turn around big time (maybe they won't), but that the idea that they have nothing of note left to be released is silly.
GW will not and cannot go after recasters based in China. Chinese law is basically setup to prevent anyone from going after their many copiers and cloners of other companies' products. One of my other hobbies is mechanical vaporizers. An authentic mod from an original manufacturer is usually $200-400. A week after a new one is released, the Chinese copy it with the cheapest material possible and awful machining and threads. They even use the exact same logo which is usually trademarked by the original manufacturer. They have been doing this for a couple years and nobody can go after them because they're in China. Go to fasttech.com if you don't know what I'm talking about. I feel bad for the authentic makers because it is cutting into their pockets and they're usually 1 man operations or at most 5-6 guys who put their time, money, blood, sweat and tears into bringing a beautiful, well machined product to market only to have the Chinese clone it a week later for 1/10th of the price. It's bull gak and I wish the cloners would be sued and shut down but it will never happen. The point of my long winded, mostly off topic post is that no matter how much money recasters take from GW, even their sue happy legal team is not going to be able to stop it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also collect Strider knives. The Chinese copy those too and Mick Strider can't do a thing about it. If you go on ebay and search Strider SMF, you can see the real deal for $300-500+ right next to the Chinese copies using the strider logo for $75. It's just sad.
lobbywatson wrote: All.im saying is Chinese recasters are making a serious dent. That's all I'm saying. The interest in the game is still there.
I disagree. <LONG!>
1. People who buy recasts would not buy GW products if you took the recasts away, generally
That is not my experience. In the past year two of my friends who were previously happy to spend big bucks on GW products have switched to recasters, simply to save money.
Vermis wrote: I think his point is, if recasters disappeared, would those two friends go back to spend big bucks on GW?
Yes they would. The guys I know would go back to hunting and searching for the best deal on GW stuff. They are still buying GW models in their mind.
The people that would be a bigger concern would be the ones who bought almost all non "official" models Mantic, Kabuki, the other 500 options on kickstarter. Those people would be the ones not coming back. They may still play the game but they have already left on their own terms. You have almost zero chance of getting those customers back.
I have reported it to GW legal. To whoever said it first. There is F all they can do about it. If a shipment wouldn't get seized they have no recourse of stopping it. None. Chinese law makes their manufactures basically immune to litigation from international parties.
I said 6th edition was popular. I didn't say it was liked by all. 6th edition sold very well.
Toofast wrote: GW will not and cannot go after recasters based in China. Chinese law is basically setup to prevent anyone from going after their many copiers and cloners of other companies' products. One of my other hobbies is mechanical vaporizers. An authentic mod from an original manufacturer is usually $200-400. A week after a new one is released, the Chinese copy it with the cheapest material possible and awful machining and threads. They even use the exact same logo which is usually trademarked by the original manufacturer. They have been doing this for a couple years and nobody can go after them because they're in China. Go to fasttech.com if you don't know what I'm talking about. I feel bad for the authentic makers because it is cutting into their pockets and they're usually 1 man operations or at most 5-6 guys who put their time, money, blood, sweat and tears into bringing a beautiful, well machined product to market only to have the Chinese clone it a week later for 1/10th of the price. It's bull gak and I wish the cloners would be sued and shut down but it will never happen. The point of my long winded, mostly off topic post is that no matter how much money recasters take from GW, even their sue happy legal team is not going to be able to stop it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also collect Strider knives. The Chinese copy those too and Mick Strider can't do a thing about it. If you go on ebay and search Strider SMF, you can see the real deal for $300-500+ right next to the Chinese copies using the strider logo for $75. It's just sad.
There needs to be a distinction drawn between "counterfeiting" and "reproducing."
I wasn't previously aware, but learned over the course of the last thread that talked specifically about the topic, that what the Chinese are doing isn't counterfeiting, and what they're doing in the specific context of miniatures is different ex ought from the activities detailed in the quote to make those activities a poor comparison.
In order to be a "counterfeiter" one has to be trying to sell the product as if it were the real thing. so at full price, or near to it. Counterfeiting as a crime has a component of deception included.
What the Chinese do is sell imitations, but at a price level that any reasonable person aware of what they're buying will know is excessively cheap, enough to prompt an element of suspicion from them, and, to take the examples in the quote, often at commensurate quality for the price paid.
Recasts of minis muddy the waters still further because I've often seen people with first hand experience cite that they are equal to, or even superior to, the original models. So rather than counterfeiters, we have people offering duplicates of equivalent quality for a substantial discount. Undoubtedly illegal in most countries, but essentially all they're doing is reproducing without permission, which is a civil offence, rather than 'stealing' anything or counterfeiting, which are both criminal.
Nevertheless, while they may indeed be getting more popular, I'm still to see anyone make any sort of compelling case that any damage they may be doing to GW's bottom line has increased significantly from where it was a year ago.
I said 6th edition was popular. I didn't say it was liked by all. 6th edition sold very well.
Any proof of this?
Because every shred of evidence points to exact opposite.
Try the 2012-13 annual report. You know the one where they had increased sales after the release of 6th... But you're right I pulled that out of my rear end...
Azrael - its not a civil offence, as it is on a commercial scale. In the UK at least it would either be counterfeit (it doesnt have to be nearly the same price - faux'lexs are counterfeit goods, but not anywhere near the price!) or, if they were very careful, just something akin to copyright. Both of these are, of course, criminal.
They should be stopped at the borders, but sadly theyre just not that big a prolem compared to counterfeit alcohol, cigarettes etc.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Azrael - its not a civil offence, as it is on a commercial scale. In the UK at least it would either be counterfeit (it doesnt have to be nearly the same price - faux'lexs are counterfeit goods, but not anywhere near the price!) or, if they were very careful, just something akin to copyright. Both of these are, of course, criminal.
They should be stopped at the borders, but sadly theyre just not that big a prolem compared to counterfeit alcohol, cigarettes etc.
I agree sir. The mini counterfeit market is small potatoes to clothing, electronics, vice products etc... The customs guys are looking for big fish.
Also I've seen this things first hand. Mostly they are of almost equal quality. After paint no one can tell. Best way to spot them is the color of resin or plastic. It's different then finecast, GW plastic or FW resin.
I said 6th edition was popular. I didn't say it was liked by all. 6th edition sold very well.
Any proof of this?
Because every shred of evidence points to exact opposite.
Try the 2012-13 annual report. You know the one where they had increased sales after the release of 6th... But you're right I pulled that out of my rear end...
Backfire wrote:Spring 2012: £68.3 New Citadel paint range, Vampire Counts
Autumn 2012: £67.5 6th edition 40k and starter set
Again, I don't know where you are getting your numbers.
And even GW seems to disagree with you, if 6th was such a large success, why did GW chose to replace it so quickly?!
Ah, thats a false conclusion to make though. Companies dont just replace quickly when somethign is doing badly - wider alignment requirements (for example, car companies usually operate a 7 year or so cycle, but often go shorter if this fits in with the opening of new facilities, regulatory changes etc. mkV golf etc) could force a change, or frankly they came up with a cool idea and wanted to get i tout there as quickly as possible.
You cannot state, categorically, that 6th edition was replaced solely because it sold badly. You cannot even point to sales fogures for "6th edition", or at least you havent - do you have numbers comparing 6th edition rulebook / core set sales to 5th? 4th?
If 6th sold well, we'd have seen a notable increase in revenue, not a continued flat line. Unless by your definition of 'sold well', you really mean 'sold adequately' or 'sold average'.
Blacksails wrote: If 6th sold well, we'd have seen a notable increase in revenue, not a continued flat line. Unless by your definition of 'sold well', you really mean 'sold adequately' or 'sold average'.
Not true, at all. Unless you assume that selling a new rulebook necessarily increases model sales?
6th edition rules could have sold incredibly well, but noone really bought many additional models, so overall the numbers were flat or even down.
Avoid the causationled arguments, as you dont, or havent supplied us with, the facts to back them up.
It is pure supposition to state that 6th edition sold badly, hence 7th was brought out so quickly.
Then by what metric of 'sold well' are you going by?
I think its perfectly reasonable to say that 6th sold okay, or average, or good enough, but there's also no evidence to support any claim it sold well.
You cannot state, categorically, that 6th edition was replaced solely because it sold badly. You cannot even point to sales fogures for "6th edition", or at least you havent - do you have numbers comparing 6th edition rulebook / core set sales to 5th? 4th?
I didn't state anything categorically, I said that every shred of evidence points to the fact that 6th edition definitely wasn't popular and didn't sell very well.
If you or lobbywatson have any evidence that contradicts that, then by all means, put it forward.
Blacksails wrote: Then by what metric of 'sold well' are you going by?
I think its perfectly reasonable to say that 6th sold okay, or average, or good enough, but there's also no evidence to support any claim it sold well.
I never said 6th sold badly.
Why is it reasonable to say it sold ok? What numbers are you basing that on?
I havent said it sold very well - that was another poster, further up. I'm just trying to point out that supposition led arguments, mainly from phantom, dont really advance anything, especially when they are presented as factual.
Blacksails wrote: Then by what metric of 'sold well' are you going by?
I think its perfectly reasonable to say that 6th sold okay, or average, or good enough, but there's also no evidence to support any claim it sold well.
I never said 6th sold badly.
Why is it reasonable to say it sold ok? What numbers are you basing that on?
I havent said it sold very well - that was another poster, further up. I'm just trying to point out that supposition led arguments, mainly from phantom, dont really advance anything, especially when they are presented as factual.
Do you have ANYTHING to support your position? Anything at all? Or are you just trolling again?
nosferatu1001 wrote: I'm just trying to point out that supposition led arguments, mainly from phantom, dont really advance anything, especially when they are presented as factual.
Yet you didn't point it out when "6th sold well" was mentioned which phantom was replying to. Seems like you have a particular agenda in your quibbles.
Blacksails wrote: Then by what metric of 'sold well' are you going by?
I think its perfectly reasonable to say that 6th sold okay, or average, or good enough, but there's also no evidence to support any claim it sold well.
I never said 6th sold badly.
Why is it reasonable to say it sold ok? What numbers are you basing that on?
I havent said it sold very well - that was another poster, further up. I'm just trying to point out that supposition led arguments, mainly from phantom, dont really advance anything, especially when they are presented as factual.
Do you have ANYTHING to support your position? Anything at all? Or are you just trolling again?
What is my position? I dont believe I've actually stated one - what I HAVE done is point out that you dont actually have anything to back up YOUR argument that it was replaced because it sold badly. AS in, you have not supplied a single piece of pertinent evidence to support your argument.
Oh, and that isnt "trolling", so reported for rule 1.
Blacksails wrote:And I'm simply disputing the claim it sold well.
Why don't we all agree we have no evidence to make any claim as to how well or poorly 6th sold and leave it at that.
So look at the poster before accusing them next time, possibly?
That was the point I was driving home - unless you actually have comparative sales figures for 4th, 5th and 6th (otherwise you cant even hope to look for a trend. Even then its mighty dodgy) you cant really state, with much certainty, what "badly", ok" or "well" actually looks like.
Why don't we all agree we have no evidence to make any claim as to how well or poorly 6th sold and leave it at that.
The two year life span indicates (not proves) that either 6th didn't sell well or that GW needed quick cash for their yearly report. Neither of those options are good news. I've yet to hear another theory about 6th's 2 year run.
Regardless of whether 6th sold well or not, it was replaced in two years, half the time of the average lifespan. I'm pretty sure that alone put off more players than GW ever accounted for.
These rulebooks aren't cheap and are getting more expensive. I was okay with paying $75 for a book that lasted four years...heck I was so enthusiastic about 6th I bought the Collector's Edition! Of course, it was invalidated in two years and a new rulebook with an even higher price tag was released and I finally conceded to not continuing with the current editions.
Why don't we all agree we have no evidence to make any claim as to how well or poorly 6th sold and leave it at that.
The two year life span indicates (not proves) that either 6th didn't sell well or that GW needed quick cash for their yearly report. Neither of those options are good news. I've yet to hear another theory about 6th's 2 year run.
False dichotomy fallacy.
They came up witha cool new idea and wanted it to be in place NOW?
It was needed to more easily support the faster, non-codex tied release cycle they moved to during 6th?
Or, possibly, it wasnt any one item in isolation....
Why don't we all agree we have no evidence to make any claim as to how well or poorly 6th sold and leave it at that.
The two year life span indicates (not proves) that either 6th didn't sell well or that GW needed quick cash for their yearly report. Neither of those options are good news. I've yet to hear another theory about 6th's 2 year run.
Or both! The general speed (ie. half the life cycle) implies the former, the exact timing implies the latter.
So look at the poster before accusing them next time, possibly?
What does the poster have anything to do with it?
I didn't see you jump on the claim 6th sold well with such energy.
It was already being adequately attacked, just by posters making the same error in argument.
You queried what metric I was going by, when I never stated a position one way or the other - I wouldnt do, as noone here has any actual facts to back up their assertions, meaning it is mostly useless speculation.
So look at the poster before accusing them next time, possibly?
What does the poster have anything to do with it?
I didn't see you jump on the claim 6th sold well with such energy.
It was already being adequately attacked, just by posters making the same error in argument.
You queried what metric I was going by, when I never stated a position one way or the other - I wouldnt do, as noone here has any actual facts to back up their assertions, meaning it is mostly useless speculation.
Well, as long as we agree there's no way to quantify how well the edition sold, I'm happy.
What is my position? I dont believe I've actually stated one - what I HAVE done is point out that you dont actually have anything to back up YOUR argument that it was replaced because it sold badly. AS in, you have not supplied a single piece of pertinent evidence to support your argument.
GW's own numbers show a decline in revenue after the release of 6th edition.
The very short lifespan of the edition itself also points to a less than stellar success.
Several retailers including Weyland and those few that post directly on Dakka also reported a drop in sales after 6th came out.
The variety of polls that indicate that the majority of Dakka users do not like 6th / 7th edition.
My own and several other posters anecdotal data indicating the vast drop in 40k players after the release of 6th edition.
Like I've said, none of this proves categorically that 6th sold poorly, but there is 0 evidence supporting the opposing view so unless you are a proponent of Kirby's "things are great if you just ignore the numbers", then by all means, put forth your own arguments...
nosferatu1001 wrote: Azrael - its not a civil offence, as it is on a commercial scale. In the UK at least it would either be counterfeit (it doesnt have to be nearly the same price - faux'lexs are counterfeit goods, but not anywhere near the price!) or, if they were very careful, just something akin to copyright. Both of these are, of course, criminal.
They should be stopped at the borders, but sadly theyre just not that big a prolem compared to counterfeit alcohol, cigarettes etc.
Online Legal Dictionary wrote:Counterfeiting is a criminal offense when it involves an intent to defraud in passing off the counterfeit item. The law contains exemptions for collector's items and items that are so obviously dissimilar from the original that a reasonable person would not consider them real. However, making a poor copy is no defense if the intent to defraud exists.
If people are going to argue about whether 6th sold well or poorly they need to define their terms of reference.
Are they talking about 6th Ed -> strictly the 6th edition products eg rulebook, cards, objective counters, etc.
Are they talking about 6th Ed -> the wider scope of whether the edition change drives ancillary sales of complimentary products eg additional models models specifically to upgrade armies to the new edition.
I would suggest that actually the answer to both is true and that 6th Ed sold "well enough" whichever of those you choose as your terms of reference, otherwise 7th Ed wouldn't have been GW's go to "holy crap the 13-14 financials are a car crash, roll out the biggest gun". (Scenery for starters, with it being integrated I bet scenery unit volumes were excellent as against historical comparatives, flyers probably too - those that were out at least).
"But the financials were not great?!" I hear you cry. Well all that means is that underlying sales - ie WHF, LotR, people generally starting new armies, new entrants/returning gamers to 40k and anything else where the buying decision is independent of the release of a new edition - were on a far faster decline than the impact of 6th Ed on the overall number. Squeeze the devotees harder because you're unable or unwilling to address the issue the portion of the customer base that is more....casual (or less invested) is shrinking at a rate of knots.
All I have for reference that 6th sold well is this. The 6 month
report for when it was released. Technically there isn't a sku breakdown to prove it. I can only assume. The obvious answer is the one ill choose to go with though.
Actually, all you've done there is prove that the release of a new edition of 40K drives sales, which I'd hold to be self evident.
In order to demonstrate 6th Ed specifically sold well, you'd need to compare the uptick in sales to other periods where a new edition was released and show that it created a greater increase than other editions, either before or since.
Azreal13 wrote: Actually, all you've done there is prove that the release of a new edition of 40K drives sales, which I'd hold to be self evident.
In order to demonstrate 6th Ed specifically sold well, you'd need to compare the uptick in sales to other periods where a new edition was released and show that it created a greater increase than other editions, either before or since.
Ok fair enough. Can you show me anything that says it sold poorly or failed to meet sales expectations?
MWHistorian wrote: I think the question has gone from "Do you really think GW is going under?" to "Do you think GW can save itself before its too late?"
To answer the new question; No I don't. To save themselves would require a level of self awareness that GW hasn't demonstrated in the past. And I don't think they have the capacity to develop that in the time left.
I said 6th edition was popular. I didn't say it was liked by all. 6th edition sold very well.
Any proof of this?
Because every shred of evidence points to exact opposite.
Try the 2012-13 annual report. You know the one where they had increased sales after the release of 6th... But you're right I pulled that out of my rear end...
Sales increase of 2.7% compared to the previous year.
OTOH, 40k 5th edition appeared to have noticeable impact on GW fortunes. In fact, it pretty much pulled the company out of post-LOTR depression. AOBR particularly sold enormous amount of units. Effect of 8th edition Fantasy and 6th edition 40k seemed much more modest.
Crimson Devil wrote: To answer the new question; No I don't. To save themselves would require a level of self awareness that GW hasn't demonstrated in the past. And I don't think they have the capacity to develop that in the time left.
+1.
Not to mention most things that would be helpful in the long term will probably be detrimental in the short term, and GW just can't afford to do that at the moment.
Like many, many players, I really want GW to substantially lower their prices. But it will decrease their revenue, which, if I'm not mistaken, isn't doing so well... They may even sell less to individual players: I *may* be tempted to buy a WHFB/40k box instead of a Bolt Action one because "ooohhh, shiiiiny, shiiiny and cheeaaap", but I'm a slow painter, and not really in grey-plastic collecting, so I won't buy much, much more than I currently do. If GW lower their prices, I may actually give them less money...
On the other hand, I may also promote WHFB/40k with more enthusiasm instead of promoting all the other systems. But it will be a slow process: GW needs to change my mind, and the mind of my fellow gamers, then we would play more, then we would promote GW games, then beginners may hear about WHFB/40k, then we could play introductory games with them, then maybe they want to consider giving GW their cash.
Even something as easy and obvious as "FIX YOUR DAMN PRICES" will be difficult, because it will hurt the company first, and it might just not survive long enough to see the positive effects of any new pricing policy.
However, a few years back they made some decisions which improved their bottom line and made the shareholders very happy, but the result was their price point made it profitable to cast resin knock-offs and sell them out of China. You could always make knock-offs, but if you do it yourself you know that it's kinda expensive. It wasn't until the last couple price hikes I could cast resin figures cheaper than buying them. Normally I only cast parts I can't get more of because it really is kind of a project-level hassle and expensive when you screw up.
In the long term, it's a huge mistake.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They put a lot of money into their process, and to do this they had to hike prices. But they did improve their process and the plastics are better quality and cheaper to produce than ever.
Ok, so if they don't lower their prices, they need to stabilize them for a few years so that it becomes less profitable to produce knock-offs and they need to stop f***** the local retailers. I understand their position on on-line retailers, and I actually support it because it helps the LFGS. Problem is for the LFGS, GW is harder than ever to keep to the letter of their annual reseller contracts.
MWHistorian wrote: I think the question has gone from "Do you really think GW is going under?" to "Do you think GW can save itself before its too late?"
To answer the new question; No I don't. To save themselves would require a level of self awareness that GW hasn't demonstrated in the past. And I don't think they have the capacity to develop that in the time left.
What is my position? I dont believe I've actually stated one - what I HAVE done is point out that you dont actually have anything to back up YOUR argument that it was replaced because it sold badly. AS in, you have not supplied a single piece of pertinent evidence to support your argument.
GW's own numbers show a decline in revenue after the release of 6th edition.
Yes, and? That does not prove that 6th edition, the RULESET, sold badly; you are discounting WHFB, LOTR, and the fact they sell models more than they sell rules. If the models dont sell as well - because they arent as desirable for whatever reason - that effects their revenue, even if the rules are amazing.
PhantomViper wrote:The very short lifespan of the edition itself also points to a less than stellar success.
Wrong, that is pure supposition. As in, you can only say it points to this if you ignore the OTHER reasons why they may have wanted to replace it. I even gave you - for free! - some of those possible reasons. The point is that you keep presenting someting as causative when you actually have gak all information to support it. Stop making fallacious arguments, please.
PhantomViper wrote:Several retailers including Weyland and those few that post directly on Dakka also reported a drop in sales after 6th came out.
Again, what does that have to do with whether the 6th edition RULES sold poorly vs the models across GW selling poorly? It also assumes that GW exists in a vacuum, such that outside effects cant affect their sales....which is a poor assumption
PhantomViper wrote:The variety of polls that indicate that the majority of Dakka users do not like 6th / 7th edition.
1) why mention 7th? Irrelevant to your position and 2) The plural of anecdote is still not evidence. The number of poorly worded polls on Dakka is astounding, given the leading questions and poorly constructed options - understandable, as writing polls that are (as near as possible to) unbiased is damned difficult and oh, the plural of anecdote still isnt data. Dakka is nowhere near representative of the 40k community, in my experience. Now, again I'm not saying my anecdotes are evidence, just pointing out that unless you can prove something about Dakka that you cannot, you cant hold it up as evidence of any damned thing, really.
PhantomViper wrote:My own and several other posters anecdotal data indicating the vast drop in 40k players after the release of 6th edition.
Not evidence, but anecdote, as you point out. Irrelevant to an evidence based argument.
PhantomViper wrote:Like I've said, none of this proves categorically that 6th sold poorly, but there is 0 evidence supporting the opposing view so unless you are a proponent of Kirby's "things are great if you just ignore the numbers", then by all means, put forth your own arguments...
My own arguments are: you have yet to define your terms, you have yet to provide a single shred of actual evidence even if we take your terms as being somewhat defined, and you still drop into fallacy mode with arguments. 6th sold poorly because 6th was replaced so quickly must mean that 6th sold poorly circular reasoning.
MY argument is: none of us here know actual hard facts about sales of 6th edition *rules*, which is the only metric we can use to determine if the *edition of rules* sold poorly vs model sales.
In other words: stop repeating your supposition regarding 6th edition selling badly.
lobbywatson wrote: So for all the GW doomsayers I have bad news. They will likely be fine. For all of us GW apologists/fanboys (like myself) we need to acknowledge things need to change obviously. More people need to see the value, I say that because lowering prices doesn't just fix things. Anyone who works in sales management knows this. It's hard to outsell what you lost by lowering prices.
Year on year, sales are down - people are leaving and aren't being replaced. GW gets around this by raising prices.
GW will keep going as long as the apologists/fanboys continue to buy at ever increasing prices.
How deep are your pockets ? Kirby would like to know
lobbywatson wrote: So for all the GW doomsayers I have bad news. They will likely be fine. For all of us GW apologists/fanboys (like myself) we need to acknowledge things need to change obviously. More people need to see the value, I say that because lowering prices doesn't just fix things. Anyone who works in sales management knows this. It's hard to outsell what you lost by lowering prices.
Year on year, sales are down - people are leaving and aren't being replaced. GW gets around this by raising prices.
GW will keep going as long as the apologists/fanboys continue to buy at ever increasing prices.
How deep are your pockets ? Kirby would like to know
As long as you ignore all evidence and the latest reports, GW is doing fine!
lobbywatson wrote: All.im saying is Chinese recasters are making a serious dent. That's all I'm saying. The interest in the game is still there.
I disagree. <LONG!>
1. People who buy recasts would not buy GW products if you took the recasts away, generally
That is not my experience. In the past year two of my friends who were previously happy to spend big bucks on GW products have switched to recasters, simply to save money.
Recasters are catching on huge here to in my area as well. In my group of friends 1 of them showed up with several new units that he paid 1/4 of the retail price for. After seeing the quality and cost of the re casts guess what? All 5 guys now order from China. These are middle class folks who were spending hundreds of dollars a year on GW and no longer spend a cent. I am not saying its right, just that when it comes to saving so much, people are going to take the cheaper option. If this has effected my small group here, then I am sure it is going to have an impact on the bigger picture as word spreads.
The ethics and morality of recasters is a moot point; too many people don't care. Arguing about it makes it change about as much GW trying to sue people over it; waste of time and money.
Like video games, music, and other entertainment industries, Games Workshop has to lower their prices, make their service better, and make the purchase from them a better value.
Pirating a video game is free. Buying it from Steam costs money. If the games stayed $60 forever, many folks would be pirating. Thanks to the onset of Steam sales, you now get many of those pirates just waiting for the $5 release. That's $5 from someone who would pay never. The added luxuries of Steam Workshop, automatic patching, and game specific forums sweetens the deal to turn pirates into cash-in-hand fanboys.
That's the way to look out, why are you losing sales. You cannot fight the moral high ground with business and with people who choose to not to even engage in the fight. If the FineManagement™ staff cannot figure this out, then that alone dooms them to failure. That's the market self correcting.
You are forgetting another reason why people pirate games. No problems with DRM. Not saying this is the primary reason, but it's part of the reason. Easier to play.
This is a lost sale. Most people who pirate a game would never have bought in the first place. So they are not lost sales. The lost sales are people who pirate the game because of DRM making them not be able to play the game. Why is the paying customer being treated like a criminal?
Also some people don't feel like they are getting their worth. So another reason why games get pirated. Sequels are released to fast and are just like money grabs, and people become to feel the value is not as worth if they have to keep buying all the time. Hmmm.... seems familiar.
How can GW make people stop pirating? I don't know. I have a few ideas. It seems GW follows Apple but doesn't do what Apple seems to do, is make people feel like they are getting a great value. How on earth do you get people to pay for something that they get for free? Not sure but some how iTunes did it. People stopped pirating music and started to pay for it. Why? Maybe people actually think they are getting value now. People want to spend money, but want value in return.
So it seems GW is not giving value to it's customers so customers are looking else where, just like how they did when it was music. People don't mind paying. People don't mind paying if it costs a bit more, but they want value for it's purchase. I think for a lot of people, paying something for GW has gone past the point off there is no value in return now. I am worried anything I buy, will be invalidated in less than 2 years of purchase. Who wants to spend a few hundred bucks and then your plastic toys is invalidated in less than 2 years.
I know I will not buy an 8th edition of 40K if it comes out in less than 4 years from now. There is no value in a rule book for me now. There is no value in buying any codex now because everything can/may be out of date and or obsolete in a short amount of time now.
GW needs to stop thinking on how to get people to buy more miniatures than they already have, example new rules and codex making previous builds unplayable and give people VALUE and a reason to keep buying. Totally different philosophy, but make your customers happy instead of feeling like we are cheap and don't mean anything to you and just need to keep on buying the same thing over and over again.
GW needs to INNOVATE and not become stale. There is no value in becoming stale.
Davor wrote: You are forgetting another reason why people pirate games. No problems with DRM. Not saying this is the primary reason, but it's part of the reason. Easier to play.
Yes but that's part of an overall product value. DRM reduces the value of a product substantially, so when the pirated version doesn't have it it's usually superior to the legit version. Steam is so successful because it adds value to the product, so even if it has one of the less-bad forms of DRM (Steamworks itself is DRM), it's often an acceptable trade for people. Steam adds tremendous value in simplicity of use through consolidating all games into one account so you'll never lose a CD key, single click to download the fully updated game rather than tracking down patches, friends lists, built in forums, guides, steam workshop, reviews and so much more. That combined with prices as Kbob mentioned is why a generation of PC pirates turned into "cash-in-hand" fanboys. Kbob, Shuppet and I linked our steam profiles in a previous thread showing the amount of money we're willing to spend when companies do it right like this.
How can GW make people stop pirating?
That is the relevant question I guess ; p For digital products at least, their own online steam-like client for digital novels, rules and so on would be a good start, with affordable prices and specials. Built in forums to discuss things and setup online groups with players, a "steam workshop" for custom content like homebrew dexes and so on wouldt be amazing. GW really have the leverage to become the tabletop hobby portal, if they build it and support all tabletop games, people will flock to it in droves. Getting a cut of other games sales is much better than ignoring them.
For retail products, Scanable QR codes to add models to your "online collection" for use with digital games.... would be very controversial. If done well, it could be amazing. Reduced prices of course would increase the value, freebies like nice printed unit cards with the model boxes, actually good rules to use the models with would substantially increase their value too. People are happy to support good products, but GW has to realize they don't have the power to force us to, either digital or physical. They need to court us - not the other way around. If they combine the afformentioned online hobby portal with their retail chain and provide a great worldwide hobby center chain supporting all tabletop games, imo it would (longterm) be a big money maker.
GW needs to INNOVATE and not become stale. There is no value in becoming stale.
Yep, other tabletop companies are and GW is feeling the pinch because of it.
And in the world of giant boneheaded business moves...
Discount_Games_Store
July 22
Hello All!
I am very sorry to say we will be getting in fewer than 10 of the 200 Sanctus Reach Stormclaws we had pre-ordered. The release information of this item did not note to us that it would be limited or allocated upon release. For some of GW’s recent releases, it has not been unusual for our pre-order to be allocated, but we have always been able to get our entire pre-order in. This is a first for us. We are very sorry for the inability to ship all your orders. “Working” with GW has grown increasingly difficult and we really appreciate all of your support.
Below I have listed the names of our first 10 buyers.
We are happy to refund you ASAP.
We are also happy to credit you your order amount towards another purchase.
We can also exchange your pre-order for one of two options below:
1. Exchange your order for one new Dark Vengeance 7th edition set + 1 box of Flash Gitz.
2. Exchange your order for one Space Wolves Pack; one Wolf guard Terminators; one Ork Nobz; one Killa Kanz; one Ork gretchin; and one Flash Gitz.
GW, why would you not sell more of something so popular as to sell out? Stupid.
It being so popular means they'd probably want to reserve it for their own sales channels to get the full margin. Assuming they still end up selling them all that way it will make them a *lot* more money. Given the demand it's very possible they will. It is however further antagnoising both the playerbase and their retail partners so the long term effects are again damaging them more than they probably know... or care about. Not sure which of those is worse.
lobbywatson wrote: So for all the GW doomsayers I have bad news. They will likely be fine. For all of us GW apologists/fanboys (like myself) we need to acknowledge things need to change obviously. More people need to see the value, I say that because lowering prices doesn't just fix things. Anyone who works in sales management knows this. It's hard to outsell what you lost by lowering prices.
Year on year, sales are down - people are leaving and aren't being replaced. GW gets around this by raising prices.
GW will keep going as long as the apologists/fanboys continue to buy at ever increasing prices.
How deep are your pockets ? Kirby would like to know
As long as you ignore all evidence and the latest reports, GW is doing fine!
Rumours of GW's impending demise are greatly exaggerated. I think the idea that the people running it don't know what they're doing is probably not well thought-out, since they've been doing it successfully for a while and have a lot of experience compared to the people impugning their competence. Companies undergo restructuring fairly often and it's not unusual for there to be a dip in profits while it's happening. The drop in sales figures could also be due to the impending release of seventh, people stop buying when they know a new edition is coming out. That said, they are still earning a profit, and they've got a healthy cash reserve, so even if they go through some hard times (again) they will probably be fine in the short-medium term (the next 5-10 years at least). There needn't be a moral dimension to this; they're a business, making business decisions, in pursuit of profit. So long as enough people think they're providing value, they'll be alright.
Yonan wrote: It being so popular means they'd probably want to reserve it for their own sales channels to get the full margin.
Now I believe here in Canada that is illegal. (I could be wrong of course). That would be a monopoly and then you are purposely short selling a product so you can make more money of it by selling it yourself. You sell GW product outside of GW stores before with no problem. Now you make a limited release and you intentionally decide to sell less on purpose to LGS so you can sell more yourself is illegal no matter if you make yourself the product or not. When you sell it regular before and now you don't, and still sell other products is creating an artificial monopoly on your own product. That is something I am sure you can't do in Canada.
Thing is, it needs to be proven, then fought in court, then retrials, and retrials on the retrials.
Who is going to take the time and money to prove it?
lobbywatson wrote: So for all the GW doomsayers I have bad news. They will likely be fine. For all of us GW apologists/fanboys (like myself) we need to acknowledge things need to change obviously. More people need to see the value, I say that because lowering prices doesn't just fix things. Anyone who works in sales management knows this. It's hard to outsell what you lost by lowering prices.
Year on year, sales are down - people are leaving and aren't being replaced. GW gets around this by raising prices.
GW will keep going as long as the apologists/fanboys continue to buy at ever increasing prices.
How deep are your pockets ? Kirby would like to know
As long as you ignore all evidence and the latest reports, GW is doing fine!
Rumours of GW's impending demise are greatly exaggerated. I think the idea that the people running it don't know what they're doing is probably not well thought-out, since they've been doing it successfully for a while and have a lot of experience compared to the people impugning their competence. Companies undergo restructuring fairly often and it's not unusual for there to be a dip in profits while it's happening. The drop in sales figures could also be due to the impending release of seventh, people stop buying when they know a new edition is coming out. That said, they are still earning a profit, and they've got a healthy cash reserve, so even if they go through some hard times (again) they will probably be fine in the short-medium term (the next 5-10 years at least). There needn't be a moral dimension to this; they're a business, making business decisions, in pursuit of profit. So long as enough people think they're providing value, they'll be alright.
Couldn't agree more. We got so many CEO's here and so few Indians in not sure how it all stays afloat. Furthermore this isn't even remotely close to the worst financial times they have ever had.
Apparently every CEO in the country follows GW financial reports and posts on dakka. I don't know how they have time to run their own companies when they're so busy playing armchair CEO for GW. I agree that a 9% loss in revenue is scary and needs to be turned around immediately. However, when you close 20%~ of your stores and make 60%~ of your revenue from said stores, it's not all that surprising.
Are you guys still going to talk like that when you're pawing confusedly at your local GW's doors, wondering why they're locked and the windows are whitewashed over, and it reopens three weeks later as '99c Workshop'?
Toofast wrote: Apparently every CEO in the country follows GW financial reports and posts on dakka. I don't know how they have time to run their own companies when they're so busy playing armchair CEO for GW. I agree that a 9% loss in revenue is scary and needs to be turned around immediately. However, when you close 20%~ of your stores and make 60%~ of your revenue from said stores, it's not all that surprising.
So please enlighten me where did GW other 10 million pounds went? That is what like over 15 million dollars Canadian? Business don't see that they made 10 million in profit, they see that they lost 10 million. Almost every company keeps saying the LOST MILLIONS while still making a profit. So please enlighten us in your wisdom. If most business do this, then why is GW doing so poorly then? Just going what other business like to spin things. It's not profit they spin but how much they loose. So if every CEO can do this then explain me your words of wisdom.
I don't get it now. How is this a good thing for GW?
Where did I say it was a good thing for them? Profit is down partially because they spent money on severance pay, closing stores (I assume that meant in some cases breaking a lease early which comes with a fee), and the new website. Revenue is more important to look at than profit during a year of heavy restructuring and lots of one time investments adding up to a substantial sum of money. Once again, please show me where I either a) referenced profit at all in my quoted post or b) said it was a good thing for GW to lose 9% in revenue? Do you even know the difference between the two?
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Vermis wrote: Are you guys still going to talk like that when you're pawing confusedly at your local GW's doors, wondering why they're locked and the windows are whitewashed over, and it reopens three weeks later as '99c Workshop'?
My GW store is doing just fine. It has gone from $1,100 a week average revenue to $2,800+ in less than a year. No, this is not typical of GW stores. However, this store isn't going anywhere as long as they're making the numbers. Considering how many new players and armies I see there on a regular basis, I doubt that will change any time soon.
Before anyone attacks me, I am fully aware this is anecdotal and does not in any way represent the average GW store.
agnosto wrote: And in the world of giant boneheaded business moves...
Discount_Games_Store
July 22
Hello All!
I am very sorry to say we will be getting in fewer than 10 of the 200 Sanctus Reach Stormclaws we had pre-ordered. The release information of this item did not note to us that it would be limited or allocated upon release. For some of GW’s recent releases, it has not been unusual for our pre-order to be allocated, but we have always been able to get our entire pre-order in. This is a first for us. We are very sorry for the inability to ship all your orders. “Working” with GW has grown increasingly difficult and we really appreciate all of your support.
Below I have listed the names of our first 10 buyers.
We are happy to refund you ASAP.
We are also happy to credit you your order amount towards another purchase.
We can also exchange your pre-order for one of two options below:
1. Exchange your order for one new Dark Vengeance 7th edition set + 1 box of Flash Gitz.
2. Exchange your order for one Space Wolves Pack; one Wolf guard Terminators; one Ork Nobz; one Killa Kanz; one Ork gretchin; and one Flash Gitz.
GW, why would you not sell more of something so popular as to sell out? Stupid.
That directly led to my picking up two large Warmachine forces from the fine people at DGS. I was fairly excited to start up a Space Wolves army and split those boxes with a friend who is just starting Orks.
It sold out on their Web store. Plenty of places still have storm claw. They do this to avoid a TSR type situation where they have massive amounts of unsold inventory on hand which they are forced to take a loss on. Since they do no market research, they are forced to do everything by trial and error. I'm betting they will produce more of the next storm claw type box. Look at LE codexes in 7th. They made 2k ork war boss editions, they still haven't sold out. When SW time came, they only made 1,500. Now that the wolf guard sold out in 5 hours, they will probably make 1,000 instead of 500 of the next high end LE codex. Also, the "quantities are limited, buy NOW!" shtick is one of the oldest sales tricks in the book.
agnosto wrote: And in the world of giant boneheaded business moves...
GW, why would you not sell more of something so popular as to sell out? Stupid.
It could be because they have to gauge interest far in advance when they decide how many units to produce, based on factors that can change in the time between ordering the production and shipping the boxes. It could be due to limitations in their manufacturing capacity. It could be that they didn't want to take sales away from the new Dark Vengeance box. I can think of any number of reasons why it would happen, and none of them are "GW execs are stupid and hate money."
I think you'll find it a more profitable exercise to try to understand why they make the decisions they do rather than just assume everything comes back to incompetence and/or malevolence. We can safely assume that they're fairly good businessmen/women and that they're genuinely trying to make money and please their customers (if only because happy people spend more money).
And it's somehow impossible to make more of these sets? They are regular kits after all..
Most companies would do their damnedest to fulfill orders not tell a company who ordered 200 sets, "Sorry, you only get 5." (Or whatever they wound up with)
Since they closed down the production facility in Memphis and accelerated the release schedule, they don't have the capacity to make infinite amount of each kit any more. They have to balance their production and try to make sure they make just enough of each kit but don't waste production on too many units that will sit around taking up warehouse/floor space. It's a delicate balance that is impossible to get right every time when you don't have unlimited production/storage capacity and don't do market research to approximate how many of each kit will sell in the first 1-2 weeks of release.
Toofast wrote: Since they closed down the production facility in Memphis and accelerated the release schedule, they don't have the capacity to make infinite amount of each kit any more. They have to balance their production and try to make sure they make just enough of each kit but don't waste production on too many units that will sit around taking up warehouse/floor space. It's a delicate balance that is impossible to get right every time when you don't have unlimited production/storage capacity and don't do market research to approximate how many of each kit will sell in the first 1-2 weeks of release.
Toofast wrote: Apparently every CEO in the country follows GW financial reports and posts on dakka.
Apparently all the production managers do, though they don't seem too good at their job.
Toofast wrote: Apparently every CEO in the country follows GW financial reports and posts on dakka. I don't know how they have time to run their own companies when they're so busy playing armchair CEO for GW.
Basically here you insulting us for having an opinion and calling everyone an Armchair CEO.
I agree that a 9% loss in revenue is scary and needs to be turned around immediately.
Here you agree it's not good but
However, when you close 20%~ of your stores and make 60%~ of your revenue from said stores, it's not all that surprising.
Here you are saying it's ok because of an excuse.
So if we are just armchair CEOs and our opinions don't count, why does your opinion count then? What makes you so special to call us names, but you are not? You just had an opinion as well. Funny you are not calling yourself an Armchair CEO now.
agnosto wrote: And it's somehow impossible to make more of these sets? They are regular kits after all..
Most companies would do their damnedest to fulfill orders not tell a company who ordered 200 sets, "Sorry, you only get 5." (Or whatever they wound up with)
I don't know why they don't make more, it might have something to do with the "limited edition" that they stamped on the characters that come in the box or it could be that they think the several-months-long time delay they'd need to get more boxes out wouldn't be worth it and would create a greater backlash. But I honestly don't know, I'm not a businessman and I don't run a production line so I'm not really in a position to give a definitive or even a terribly informed answer. I just don't think it's reasonable to assume stupidity or malice, and I'm offering reasonable-sounding explanations for their actions as an illustration.
Basically here you insulting us for having an opinion and calling everyone an Armchair CEO.
I'm sorry you're offended Davor. I don't think the idea is to call anyone names or insult anybody. It's just to say that second-guessing GW's business decisions or assuming they're bad at their jobs is probably not the best starting point for an argument. They have experience as CEOs and business executives, and we don't, so even if they are bad at their jobs and have just been muddling through and getting lucky so far, it's unlikely we'll be the ones to notice or call them on it, much less for the right reasons.
It's just that answering the question "Is GW financially viable long term" with "no, they're all incompetent and they're driving the company into the ground" isn't really a good answer, unless it comes from someone with the expertise and experience to back it up. And I include myself among the people who are not qualified to assess GW's business decisions.
I didn't say it was ok, I said it wasn't surprising. It's still bad because if they were healthier as a company and better at marketing, they wouldn't have needed to close those stores and their revenue would've been at least flat or increased slightly. You're twisting my words and interpreting them in a way that was not intended.
I am not insulted or offended my friend. I should have made it more clear, sorry, but when you say Armchair CEO it seems like you are demeaning other peoples opinions it's hard to take what you say at face value then.
You are correct, most of us except a few people on here are really competent on making actual facts. Thing is, this is how we feel because how we or should I say a lot of people fell like they have been slated by GW.
Thing is, you are correct. GW still made 10 million in profits, so I believe they are not going under anytime soon.
Do I like seeing GW eating crow? Yes. Do I want them to go under? No. Pretty bad when your view of a company or the head of the company you want to see gone and sing "Ding dong the witch is dead"
No disrespect was intended. I didn't actually use the phrase "armchair CEO" but I felt obliged to apologize for the offense on behalf of Toofast, since he's making substantially the same point that I am (though not in the manner I would have done). More broadly, I'm not trying to belittle anyone's intelligence or opinion, and if that was the impression I gave then I hope I have cleared the air somewhat.
The ill feeling GW has engendered among its fanbase doesn't speak well of their community engagement, I will certainly give you that.
Toofast wrote: They do this to avoid a TSR type situation where they have massive amounts of unsold inventory on hand which they are forced to take a loss on.
Well, except that's not what happened to TSR. TSR took a hit from a sale or return policy with major booksellers being activated. I don't know what GW's policy is with FLGS, but this can easily be prevented by limiting the amount that any store (including their own, just to avoid inventory build up) can have on hand at any one time.
None of which makes leaving money on the table (by making it LE) or taking money out of their market (people spending money they could have given GW on ebay etc to get hold if it, but not just the sale GW lost, the additional erosion of hobby budgets for the scalper's premium).
office_waaagh wrote: It's just to say that second-guessing GW's business decisions or assuming they're bad at their jobs is probably not the best starting point for an argument. They have experience as CEOs and business executives, and we don't, so even if they are bad at their jobs and have just been muddling through and getting lucky so far, it's unlikely we'll be the ones to notice or call them on it, much less for the right reasons.
It's just that answering the question "Is GW financially viable long term" with "no, they're all incompetent and they're driving the company into the ground" isn't really a good answer, unless it comes from someone with the expertise and experience to back it up. And I include myself among the people who are not qualified to assess GW's business decisions.
It's not the starting point of the argument, it's based on a succession of activities carried out over several years. And there are people in the topic who know what they're talking about.
If GW keeps releasing things like the gaudy Space Viking hover longboat chariot pulled by wolves then yeah, I really think they're going under. Surely there can't be enough people that like that sort of thing to pay off the mould cost, especially if you take into account the people (and their dollars) chased away by seeing that junk.
The reaction to that has actually been mostly positive among the SW players. If someone who only plays eldar and necrons hates it, that doesn't really effect the sales at all. I think the current SW releases have a lot more people excited than any other releases in recent memory. I'm just not sure why. I play SW exclusively and I think the flyer looks like a shipping container with little t Rex wings, murderfang is a CC only dreadnought in an edition where CC is an afterthought and dreads are mediocre at best, with a silly name and even worse fluff (ice claws that never melt, huh?), they've turned our most feared character into Santa clause with an axe, and the LE codexes were overpriced for what you get compared to past LE books.
Toofast wrote: The reaction to that has actually been mostly positive among the SW players.
*boggle* are we reading the same threads? The recent models have been very polarising, even just among SW players with less SW players being able to rationalise them as they get more insane.
Toofast wrote: The reaction to that has actually been mostly positive among the SW players.
*boggle* are we reading the same threads? The recent models have been very polarising, even just among SW players with less SW players being able to rationalise them as they get more insane.
A good bit of the SW players at my FLGS have been chomping at the bit to pick one up, not everyone hates it. Personally? I like it, but I think (and I said the exact same thing about the taurox) that it would look better with a different paint job than the box art. I think something that rugged and borderline industrial looking would benefit from a gritty, rusty and worn looking paintjob.
I actually think the Space Wolf Flyer isn't bad. It's not the best miniature I've seen, but it's not bad. Santa's Sleigh, though...
Addressing the OP:
Yeah. I think they're in a lot of trouble. I think good management would have a chance to turn things around, maybe. I doubt there's any good management in GW's future, though.
So yes, once again I am linking these. He guessed 42% down in profits and he was actually right.
Part 15 wrote:Instead of growing your business and our community you are now talking about survivability of GW.
This is the point we are at, GW is in a death spiral and we aren't talking about growth or long term viability, we are talking about them surviving the next three years.
You can talk all you like about Stormclaw selling out and 7th being the best edition ever and restructuring costs but GW just had a truly terrible year while what evidence we have (Google trends is evidence of nothing) is that the entire market and the majority, if not all, GW's competition are growing.
I was speaking more about local SW players and those in the SW facebook groups I'm in. I have definitely seen how much the dakka community hates the new releases, but from my limited experience, dakka hates anything GW makes. You can't really use this forum as a metric for reception of new releases or GW wouldn't have released a "good" kit in the last 5 years.
Toofast wrote: I was speaking more about local SW players and those in the SW facebook groups I'm in. I have definitely seen how much the dakka community hates the new releases, but from my limited experience, dakka hates anything GW makes. You can't really use this forum as a metric for reception of new releases or GW wouldn't have released a "good" kit in the last 5 years.
It looks negative in the warseer thread, looks negative in the BnC thread, even BoLS is pretty negative and the reddit 40k thread on them also lambasted it.
If you think Dakka is negative, you might need to change that to "all 40k discussion forums on the the internet are negative".
Toofast wrote: I was speaking more about local SW players and those in the SW facebook groups I'm in. I have definitely seen how much the dakka community hates the new releases, but from my limited experience, dakka hates anything GW makes. You can't really use this forum as a metric for reception of new releases or GW wouldn't have released a "good" kit in the last 5 years.
Given you have only been a member for six weeks your experience is pretty limited. The "DakkaDakka haets all of GW" argument is old, tired and false.
DakkaDakka is one of the largest GW and 40K focussed forums around. DakkaDakka's increasing complaints in recent years about the low quality of (some, not all) GW kits and rules have coincided with GW's worst financial performance in 10 years.
Toofast wrote: I was speaking more about local SW players and those in the SW facebook groups I'm in. I have definitely seen how much the dakka community hates the new releases, but from my limited experience, dakka hates anything GW makes. You can't really use this forum as a metric for reception of new releases or GW wouldn't have released a "good" kit in the last 5 years.
Given you have only been a member for six weeks your experience is pretty limited. The "DakkaDakka haets all of GW" argument is old, tired and false.
DakkaDakka is one of the largest GW and 40K focussed forums around. DakkaDakka's increasing complaints in recent years about the low quality of (some, not all) GW kits and rules have coincided with GW's worst financial performance in 10 years.
Correlation does not prove causation of course.
If only there was some way for GW to found out if there was a link between customer satisfaction and reduced sales. Bah who am I kidding, we'll buy what they make because that's our hobby, buying their stuff. /facepalm
Toofast wrote: I was speaking more about local SW players and those in the SW facebook groups I'm in. I have definitely seen how much the dakka community hates the new releases, but from my limited experience, dakka hates anything GW makes. You can't really use this forum as a metric for reception of new releases or GW wouldn't have released a "good" kit in the last 5 years.
It looks negative in the warseer thread, looks negative in the BnC thread, even BoLS is pretty negative and the reddit 40k thread on them also lambasted it.
If you think Dakka is negative, you might need to change that to "all 40k discussion forums on the the internet are negative".
Warseer is a lot more positive than dakka. Sure there are lots of people with a negative opinion, but the difference between warseer and dakka is that over there you could post a positive opinion about a 40k product or gw and not be flamed out of the thread.
Toofast wrote: I was speaking more about local SW players and those in the SW facebook groups I'm in. I have definitely seen how much the dakka community hates the new releases, but from my limited experience, dakka hates anything GW makes. You can't really use this forum as a metric for reception of new releases or GW wouldn't have released a "good" kit in the last 5 years.
It looks negative in the warseer thread, looks negative in the BnC thread, even BoLS is pretty negative and the reddit 40k thread on them also lambasted it.
If you think Dakka is negative, you might need to change that to "all 40k discussion forums on the the internet are negative".
Warseer is a lot more positive than dakka. Sure there are lots of people with a negative opinion, but the difference between warseer and dakka is that over there you could post a positive opinion about a 40k product or gw and not be flamed out of the thread.
And here you can post a negative one without fear of MODs deleting it.
Toofast wrote: I was speaking more about local SW players and those in the SW facebook groups I'm in. I have definitely seen how much the dakka community hates the new releases, but from my limited experience, dakka hates anything GW makes. You can't really use this forum as a metric for reception of new releases or GW wouldn't have released a "good" kit in the last 5 years.
It looks negative in the warseer thread, looks negative in the BnC thread, even BoLS is pretty negative and the reddit 40k thread on them also lambasted it.
If you think Dakka is negative, you might need to change that to "all 40k discussion forums on the the internet are negative".
Warseer is a lot more positive than dakka. Sure there are lots of people with a negative opinion, but the difference between warseer and dakka is that over there you could post a positive opinion about a 40k product or gw and not be flamed out of the thread.
And here you can post a negative one without fear of MODs deleting it.
You can do that on warseer too. It's just that over there, relentlessly driving a thread off-topic by bashing gw is considered spam. Check out the GW annual report thread. The first page is full of people bashing and laughing at GW.
Do you think Kirbys "yes men" recruiting philosophy trickles down to (some of) the players? Some seem to say yes no matter what happens. If it does, maybe they'll keep taking the price increases from behind while Kirby laughs all the way to the bank to don his golden parachute and all will be well.
agnosto wrote: And it's somehow impossible to make more of these sets? They are regular kits after all..
Most companies would do their damnedest to fulfill orders not tell a company who ordered 200 sets, "Sorry, you only get 5." (Or whatever they wound up with)
I don't know why they don't make more, it might have something to do with the "limited edition" that they stamped on the characters that come in the box or it could be that they think the several-months-long time delay they'd need to get more boxes out wouldn't be worth it and would create a greater backlash. But I honestly don't know, I'm not a businessman and I don't run a production line so I'm not really in a position to give a definitive or even a terribly informed answer. I just don't think it's reasonable to assume stupidity or malice, and I'm offering reasonable-sounding explanations for their actions as an illustration.
Labeling something "limited edition" is all well and good and so is actually making a limited run of it. The problem here is that they made it so "limited" as to only satisfy a fraction of demand. This is what most people would call "a missed opportunity". It also illustrates what GW management refuses to see; a reasonable price for products bundled together will sell, and sell in volumes high enough to offset any loss of margin due to the bundle price. Just use the Discount Games example, the pre-ordered 200 copies and received "less than 10". Most companies use pre-orders as a way to help gauge demand and to do some really cheap market research, I know it's an evil phrase at GW corporate but thriving businesses use it every day. What GW calls a "pre-order" is barely that since there's only a week from pre-order to delivery. This means that GW has already pre-determined volumes of product based upon some arcane hand-waving (for all we know). Ideally, you would lead your pre-orders out far enough that you'd be able to supply enough to meet initial demand and, in the case of a limited run, stop there. You can't do that unless you ask people how many they want and then deliver it.
GW has lost out because of their practices on several fronts. They lost potential sales, they further damaged their reputation with sell-through partners and they missed the opportunity to gauge actual demand for their product. In the business world, this is generally bad.
I think part of this attitude comes from corporate management's view that GW is the Apple of table-top gaming (Kirby's continued references to Steve Jobs and Apple in preambles). The difference here is that Apple has a much MUCH larger market presence than GW could ever dream of; there are more people interested in and buying Apple products because it's not a niche market. When you self-admit that you are a part of a niche market, you can't operate your business like Apple, you have to increase appeal for your product as broadly as possible not assume people will buy it or "If we build it, they will buy it". Alan Merrett said in a court of law, under oath, that GW believes that the hobby of GW's customers is "buying GW products." The problem with this attitude is that people change their hobbies all the time and if there's nothing stronger keeping people around than buying your stuff, when you actively make it impossible for them to do just that.
Hhhhhahaha! Oh man. I can imagine rhinos churning through the mud, (just about) imagine stormfangs hurtling through the air, but I imagine a couple of wolves with legs flailing and tongues lolling, trying to haul this flying viking bathtub but falling far behind the (almost) proper vehicles and transports, and I crack up. The one thing it does leave far behind, IMO, is the 'drive me closer' meme.
I'm sorry. I know we're supposed to realise that these things are subjective, and live and let live and all that junk; but if you look at this thing, get enthused by it, think it's a sign that GW is going in a good direction, and not a sign that 40K is aimed at children, then I have to think that something's gone very, very wrong.
On a slightly more serious note, I've been reading Wayshuba's descriptions of death spirals and how they apply to GW, for a while. Is this not an example of a desperate, rushed release, in that context?
jonolikespie wrote:And here you can post a negative one without fear of MODs deleting it.
You can do that on warseer too. It's just that over there, relentlessly driving a thread off-topic by bashing gw is considered spam. Check out the GW annual report thread. The first page is full of people bashing and laughing at GW.
All praise Warseer, deleting GW-critical comments. Much better!
You can do that on warseer too. It's just that over there, relentlessly driving a thread off-topic by bashing gw is considered spam. Check out the GW annual report thread. The first page is full of people bashing and laughing at GW.
All praise Warseer, deleting GW-critical comments. Much better!
Darn that pesky freedom of thought. It's over-rated. It's much better to have an echo-chamber.
Toofast wrote: Why would a company with no debt and £9mil in the bank that still turns a profit month after month and year after year be in any danger of going under?
I think the demise of GW nearly unsvoidable at this point.
They'd have to first recognize the problems they face, and then make the appropriate adjustments. Does anyone truly believe the GW leadership is capable of this?
It's a sad, hard reality to face. Unfortunately we are helpless to do anything but sit and watch.
So this thread has jumped forward a few pages since I last caught up, and all I can think of to describe the arguments put forward by the "everything is fine, nothing is broken crew" is this...
Azreal13 wrote: So this thread has jumped forward a few pages since I last caught up, and all I can think of to describe the arguments put forward by the "everything is fine, nothing is broken crew" is this...
