I'm liking the new rules and cards a lot so far! Some nerfs, but overall really happy with the changes.
Overall I'm fine with most of the nerfs and the new rules, but damn has this release been sloppy as hell and filled with errors. There's already been a lot of errata and rules changes. Black dry erasable tokens in the new battle boxes is a dumb oversight as well.
Azreal13 wrote: I'm starting a Legion army and the game for the first time.
I'm definitely considering legion, especially with the new character beast render I posted a few pages back. The Hellmouth looks really fun too, and I've always liked their look in general.
I am mostly positive so far, few changes up put down a order for 3 army's today, and a seperate order for each army box :0 too much awesome will be coming !
Otherwise my army's mostly stay similar with a few changes mostly being by choice
B0B MaRlEy wrote: I don't understand, when I check the Cygnar deck (that I haven't bought so it's locked) , Constance and the precursor knights are displayed
Just checked my Menoth deck (still have to buy Mercs), and Idrians show as not purchased, though they show up in the Menoth deck. PP have specifically said that Partisan models will be included in faction decks though, so probably an error.
I don't have any cavalry models so I need you, dear Dakka people, to answer a very, very important question: which percentage of PP's anatomically correct horses are male? I am asking for a friend, ofc.
Oh wow. I might have to start collecting. That just looks awesome. Too bad the experience I had with Troll Blood miniatures turned me off PP and hordes. Was about to start Legion of Everblight. Maybe it's time to get back in. Too bad nobody plays in my area, but starting a collection if the minis are better than the starter set of Blood Trolls, then maybe I will have to reconsider and start collecting again.
B0B MaRlEy wrote: I don't understand, when I check the Cygnar deck (that I haven't bought so it's locked) , Constance and the precursor knights are displayed
They're displayed, but they're locked. Like the Mercs section in War Room 1. Just checked and they were available with just the Cygnar deeck in WR1,
The bug report button says 'for bugs and inventory errors' so I emailed them on the chance this is just an oversight.
B0B MaRlEy wrote: I don't understand, when I check the Cygnar deck (that I haven't bought so it's locked) , Constance and the precursor knights are displayed
Just checked my Menoth deck (still have to buy Mercs), and Idrians show as not purchased, though they show up in the Menoth deck. PP have specifically said that Partisan models will be included in faction decks though, so probably an error.
Just wanted to say that the Partisan bug is now, and are correctly included in their partisan factions deck as well as Mercs Now my one fault I've had with war room is fixed, it's bloody awesome, definitely appreciating the new features
Yeah, looks like August. Which is too bad, since I want the new Cygnar battlegroup. Waiting makes too much sense, though, since I also would like the Cryx and the two-player box is therefore a significantly better deal.
It IS standard, but wouldn`t it be nice, if they raised the bar after all these years?
They'd have to hire for 5 sculpts instead of 3, leading to cost
increases. It might be worth the investment if they expected you
to buy 5 of any given unit, but really it seems they plan around
a player getting 1-3. Most players buy just 1 unit.
And I feel they have raised the bar over the years. They've
gotten better at distinguishing the character unit sculpts and
making it clearer which ones are which (or making it so that
it doesn't matter which models are which)., they're slowly
moving into plastics, and their resculpts of various character
warbeast/warjacks have been impressive.
Maybe someday we'll have 5 unique sculpts. Or maybe someday
they'll think to at least swap the goats that the druid riders
are riding so that they don't look completely identical at first
glance
B0B MaRlEy wrote: I don't understand, when I check the Cygnar deck (that I haven't bought so it's locked) , Constance and the precursor knights are displayed
They're displayed, but they're locked. Like the Mercs section in War Room 1. Just checked and they were available with just the Cygnar deeck in WR1,
The bug report button says 'for bugs and inventory errors' so I emailed them on the chance this is just an oversight.
And just checked and Blaze and the Precursors are now unlocked. Looks like that bug report button works
I think PP consider duplicate poses a feature rather than a bug: it allows you to single out the leader more easily.
I say this is terrible and terrible and I wish this idea to die a short yet painful death and posable mini so that we can go wild!
It's not a feature for any aesthetic reasons, it's simple to keep costs down. Less poses means less time sculpting. Less molds to keep on hand. Less space storing the parts and products. It's annoying to me, but it is very much a cost saving issue.
Damn, well it looks like I will be waiting till August to update. At least it gives me time to save up....
Unless the release stuff my FLGS gets in includes one or two of the two player sets.
ImAGeek wrote: Tristan Durant too. All the journeyman war asters are getting their fully fledged versions at GenCon.
These look great! I hope it doesn't mean that we can't use their 'lesser Warcaster' versions in the same game as them. I wish all the factions got generic 'Lesser casters/warlocks', so they didn't run into problems like that.
I also wish they'd do some more of the lesser warlock solo characters. The 4 we have are amazing, but more with even wierder custom creatures would be great. I'd also love it if they did the same with solo lesser warcasters. Some new people with a weird new jack or two, with the option of taking more merc jacks would rock! Right now, I think Magnus is the only one with an exclusive merc jack.
ImAGeek wrote: Tristan Durant too. All the journeyman war asters are getting their fully fledged versions at GenCon.
These look great! I hope it doesn't mean that we can't use their 'lesser Warcaster' versions in the same game as them. I wish all the factions got generic 'Lesser casters/warlocks', so they didn't run into problems like that.
I also wish they'd do some more of the lesser warlock solo characters. The 4 we have are amazing, but more with even wierder custom creatures would be great. I'd also love it if they did the same with solo lesser warcasters. Some new people with a weird new jack or two, with the option of taking more merc jacks would rock! Right now, I think Magnus is the only one with an exclusive merc jack.
It will mean you can't use the journemen versions in the same game because they're the same character, unfortunately.
These are the Epic versions of the Journeymen so they can't be used together. Same with any Epic character. I don't think they're using the Epic title anymore though.
The Merc one won't be at GenCon though for some reason.
Hm. Something about that Aiakos sculpt just isn't doing it for me. It seems like the details are chunky (chain links, over-sized arms and hands) and generally too busy with the different types of armor he is wearing.
Are there background reasons he is outfitted the way he is? Seems like he is wearing different types of Cryxian armor from a War-witch's helmet to a Bane Warrior cod piece and then Bane Knight chain mail.
Does anyone have an idea when(date and time) the webstore will have the new stuff for those of us unable to attend? I really want the exclusive Skarre, and new Aiakos with the exclusive stuff, so don't want to miss out
Rygnan wrote: Does anyone have an idea when(date and time) the webstore will have the new stuff for those of us unable to attend? I really want the exclusive Skarre, and new Aiakos with the exclusive stuff, so don't want to miss out
Yeah... I don't get the weird tension between hardcore GW and PP fans.
If it's a criticism, just criticize- you don't need to compare it to another line or fanbase. For instance, I think all of the new warcaster poses look stiff and/or awkward (period).
That Malakov pose is 50 kinds of wtf. I had high hopes looking through the concept art, and THAT'S what they end up using? I wouldn't mind it so much if the arms weren't all kinds of awkward. Why's he holding his sword back like that? Why does it look like he's pressing his gun arm into his side even as it's pointed forward to shoot? Why is he taking a baby step forward?
If it's a criticism, just criticize- you don't need to compare it to another line or fanbase. For instance, I think all of the new warcaster poses look stiff and/or awkward (period).
Could it be because it's all done on CAD now? While GW and PP are making great sculpt now with CAD, CAD does seem very inorganic and more stiff.
If it's a criticism, just criticize- you don't need to compare it to another line or fanbase. For instance, I think all of the new warcaster poses look stiff and/or awkward (period).
Could it be because it's all done on CAD now? While GW and PP are making great sculpt now with CAD, CAD does seem very inorganic and more stiff.
It could just be that you are looking at a render and not a finished product.
or the angle
personally i have no issue with ether methods of sculpting.
and even then between the two there are still good and bad sculpts.
Definitely meh on the new caster sculpts. PP's art direction really seems biased in favor of busy detail, increasingly so. It is just too much, and almost emphasizes how mediocre the posing is, as though it draws your attention to how strange the model looks compared to what a normal human might ever look like.
No not new, but new for me to see someone doing boob armour and not get flack for it, but GW gets flack for it anytime SoB is mentioned.
PP cop plenty of flack for their design decisions... It's just not always as immediate as GW, on account of a smaller audience.
The fact that Warmahordes is a fantasy rather than scifi(ish) setting makes a difference, as well... there's much more tolerance for impractical armour amongst fantasy fans, from my experience.
No not new, but new for me to see someone doing boob armour and not get flack for it, but GW gets flack for it anytime SoB is mentioned.
PP cop plenty of flack for their design decisions... It's just not always as immediate as GW, on account of a smaller audience.
The fact that Warmahordes is a fantasy rather than scifi(ish) setting makes a difference, as well... there's much more tolerance for impractical armour amongst fantasy fans, from my experience.
Fair enough my friend.
That said, how would a good way to get back into Hordes? I already downloaded the rule book. I take it all my old cards and faction books are no use anymore. Is there new faction books out now? Besides getting the War app 2 or what ever it's called (got it just don't feel like paying for it yet since I rather have a physical copy) what can I do or should start looking?
The Battle Box. General consensus is the new casters are all very solid. Buy online for a discount, but even at $40 retail its a steal. The tokens and the mini rule book are great.
New faction books will come, but currently the only books with valid rules are the hardcover Prime/Primal and the softcover versions from the battle boxes. Hardcover is only needed for fluff stuff and unit entries, the full rules are in the battle box version and you can get the unit stats either from War Room or the 2016 decks.
If it's a criticism, just criticize- you don't need to compare it to another line or fanbase. For instance, I think all of the new warcaster poses look stiff and/or awkward (period).
Could it be because it's all done on CAD now? While GW and PP are making great sculpt now with CAD, CAD does seem very inorganic and more stiff.
GW and PP use different materials, so manufacturing plays a part in posing a model. While really dynamic poses can be achieved with resin, metal, and restic, it requires the model be cut into more pieces. More pieces means more molds and labor to produce.
No not new, but new for me to see someone doing boob armour and not get flack for it, but GW gets flack for it anytime SoB is mentioned.
PP cop plenty of flack for their design decisions... It's just not always as immediate as GW, on account of a smaller audience.
The fact that Warmahordes is a fantasy rather than scifi(ish) setting makes a difference, as well... there's much more tolerance for impractical armour amongst fantasy fans, from my experience.
Not discounting that people might give the fantasy genre a pass, but if that is the case it is silly. Scfi has a long tradition of sexually exploiting the female form so there really shouldn't be a higher tolerance for instances in one genre over the other.
If it's a criticism, just criticize- you don't need to compare it to another line or fanbase. For instance, I think all of the new warcaster poses look stiff and/or awkward (period).
Could it be because it's all done on CAD now? While GW and PP are making great sculpt now with CAD, CAD does seem very inorganic and more stiff.
GW and PP use different materials, so manufacturing plays a part in posing a model. While really dynamic poses can be achieved with resin, metal, and restic, it requires the model be cut into more pieces. More pieces means more molds and labor to produce.
So, PP being cheap essentially created those awful poses? Awesome.
Davor wrote: That said, how would a good way to get back into Hordes? I already downloaded the rule book. I take it all my old cards and faction books are no use anymore. Is there new faction books out now? Besides getting the War app 2 or what ever it's called (got it just don't feel like paying for it yet since I rather have a physical copy) what can I do or should start looking?
If you have the rulebook the only thing you need at this point are the cards for your existing miniatures. I bought my cards through the app, but I think the physical card decks are all available now ($20US MSRP each).
There are supposed to be two kinds of "faction" books coming out for v3, a "commander" book for each faction, and a set of "theme" books with special rules and bonuses for themed lists which are supposed to also introduce new miniatures for the associated faction. As I understand it, each faction will have one "commander" book but may have multiple "theme" books.
Thank you mdauben, greatly appreciate it. I am not sure what to do. Do I spend more money on cards or get a better value in the apps?
Can I print my cards from the apps? One thing I thought was great in AoS app is having everything for free. Now I miss having actual cards for AoS. So I would like something physical.
Davor wrote: Thank you mdauben, greatly appreciate it. I am not sure what to do. Do I spend more money on cards or get a better value in the apps?
Can I print my cards from the apps? One thing I thought was great in AoS app is having everything for free. Now I miss having actual cards for AoS. So I would like something physical.
So can I print cards from the War App?
There might be a way somehow but it's not a function of the app, no.
Davor wrote: Can I print my cards from the apps? One thing I thought was great in AoS app is having everything for free. Now I miss having actual cards for AoS. So I would like something physical.
The app cards cost $9US so less than half the price of the physical cards. Its up to you if that's worth forgoing the physical cards. Personally, I'm going with the app for now but I may go back and buy the physical cards at a later date if I get tired of using my phone.
As the previous poster said, there is no function in the app to print out the cards. You might be able to do a screen cap of each card, save that and then print them out. IMO it would be a lot of fuss (at least two screen caps for each card. I think most of the casters have at least four sides to do). For one or two figures it might be alright. For a whole deck I'd rather just buy the physical cards.
So, PP being cheap essentially created those awful poses? Awesome.
It's not just about being 'cheap'. Fewer pieces also mean easier assembly and more robust finished models... it's the age-old trade-off between 'gaming piece' and 'scale model'.
Ooooh ok, the Ghettorix resculpt didn't do a lot for me, but that is a big improvement over the old Megs! I think I will have to pick that up, and now I have a new excuse to not paint up mine
ImAGeek wrote: The image in the email is squashed though, it actually looks like:
Spoiler:
Thanks to that stone loincloth we won't see his long wooden log! Also, what is happening with the base?
That stone is his "log". He is always "rock hard", no matter the position.
The base is just a render of a base, just that that is a render of the model. I am a little annoyed to note that even at the rendering stage they are aware of the fact that his feet just barely fit on the supplied base. Seriously, PP, you know how big your bloody bases are, so design models that fit on them!
Well, so far my general opinion of MK3 is positive. I like the more jack points and power up and the rules streamlining changes very little but the changes mostly make sense. I'm also enjoying more terrain on the table.*
* I've always advocated for more terrain but my local player base is made up of people who like to travel to the huge tournaments and style themselves as competitive players even though they never really have a hope of getting in the top half, let alone the top 10 or whatever.
Hordes doesn't seem to have as much of an alpha strike advantage anymore. It's still there, but Fury has been reduced here and there and things have been toned back while Power Up has helped Warmachine get up to a similar level of focus/fury spent per turn.
As someone who plays casually using mostly stuff that was released during MK1 (I played from the release of Escalation) and playing with people who take the game seriously, I think it's become a bit more casual friendly. It's more likely than in MK2 that if you take things you think are cool, you'll have a reasonable list. Battleboxes are mismatched a bit though. The Ret caster is just so nasty in a small game. Worst match up possible is Syntherion vs her in a low points game. It's like only one person is playing with all her movement tricks.
In all I think they're at 80% of what has been described as the central premise of the game. It's far more about giant magic steam powered robots than MK2 or MK1 was.
Most of what PP does, except maybe the metals, is done in China, even the crappier plastic. They kind of don't have much control over the process from what people say, which has lead to more quality control issues.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Madrak's scrawny arms look odd without any giant shoulderpads to go with his big huge gauntlets. Surprised he's going with javelins.
I think lack of shoulder pads makes sense if you're throwing javelins, since that needs a bit of freedom of movement in the shoulder joint that a big armor plate would compromise.
Their products are all over the place material wise. I wish there was a good financial explanation for it all, or just some understanding of the decision process.
They're still having huge delays with the HIPS stuff. I heard the Hydra is suffering for it right now as they're having trouble cutting it up to fit on the sprues. Reportedly their last prototype took someone some ~ten hours to then assemble.
I guess I have to see this in person. I don't see what the big deal is. After seeing what GW has put out and what PP has put out lately that wasn't too impressive to me (again to me not anyone else) I can't get excited for it.
I guess I just don't know how to put a PP mini together so I can't get excited for this. I basically quit PP because of the hard time I have putting them together.
Your not alone, I sold an entire CoC all-in-one after trying to assemble one of their heavy warjacks.. I also can tell I give my Trollbloods a rushed paint job compaired to my AoS stuff. I dislike working with PP stuff.
That Storm raptor is pretty neat though, and I want one for my "Wood Elves" army.
Davor wrote: I guess I have to see this in person. I don't see what the big deal is. After seeing what GW has put out and what PP has put out lately that wasn't too impressive to me (again to me not anyone else) I can't get excited for it.
I guess I just don't know how to put a PP mini together so I can't get excited for this. I basically quit PP because of the hard time I have putting them together.
This is HIPS though, which from what I've heard are no different to GW plastics in terms of building.
I built a new HIPS Reliant kit, and it builds like GW models. The frames themselves give a very 1998 vibe, with a ton of open space and crisp but underwhelming detail.
So, with Una2 having snipe, what do yall think will do good with it, the stormraptor looks fun ith it, range 16 pow 14 shot seems pretty fun, the Fulcrum seems fun too.
Yeah, the Kraken was $125 while its dual kit is $110. Looks like even bigger drops on the newer versions of the Prime Axiom and Conquest. So yeah, probably will be cheaper than the older colossals.
Question: Is there any place I can go to see which PP models are HIPS? Their PVC offerings are something I'm not interested in, but there are some things I'd probably get if they were HIPS.
Albertorius wrote: Question: Is there any place I can go to see which PP models are HIPS? Their PVC offerings are something I'm not interested in, but there are some things I'd probably get if they were HIPS.
The current HIPS models are: Reliant/Stormclad, (upcoming) Stormwall/Hurricane, (upcoming) Indictor/Guardian, Grolar/Kodiak, Beserker/Mad Dog/Rager, (upcoming) Victor/Conquest, Kraken/Sepulcher, Inflictor/Seether, (upcoming) Rhulic battle Engine, Transfinite Emergance Projector, Prime Axiom/Conflux, (upcoming) Storm Raptor, (upcoming/at some point) Desert Hydra, Meat Thresher. The Hyperion/Hypnos and Revelator/Judicator will almost definitely be HIPS too.
Might have missed a couple but I think that's everything.
Albertorius wrote: Question: Is there any place I can go to see which PP models are HIPS? Their PVC offerings are something I'm not interested in, but there are some things I'd probably get if they were HIPS.
The current HIPS models are: Reliant/Stormclad, (upcoming) Stormwall/Hurricane, (upcoming) Indictor/Guardian, Grolar/Kodiak, Beserker/Mad Dog/Rager, (upcoming) Victor/Conquest, Kraken/Sepulcher, Inflictor/Seether, (upcoming) Rhulic battle Engine, Transfinite Emergance Projector, Prime Axiom/Conflux, (upcoming) Storm Raptor, (upcoming/at some point) Desert Hydra, Meat Thresher. The Hyperion/Hypnos and Revelator/Judicator will almost definitely be HIPS too.
Might have missed a couple but I think that's everything.
Thank you very much! I see a Grolar/Kodiak in my future, now...
matous1983 wrote: Hi!
Just wanted to show our new addition 2D terrain sets made of mousepad material for SmogCon UK tournament. You can check at http://www.gamemat.eu/
Not a knock on gamermat.eu as these look like a nice set of terrain pieces for those using 2D terrain. I was quite excited to restart Warmachine and Hordes when they released the new starter sets and rules. I actually ordered a couple starters (one WM the other Hordes) but then I found out the local group was strictly tournament focused and only played on 2D terrain it kind of killed my enthusiasm, as I'm more a modeler than a tournament player so I like to see my finished miniatures play on nice 3D terrain. YMMV.
I'm a big fan of a mixed approach. 2D terrain areas work wonders for the game, but you can keep the table looking visually interesting by identifying the template with nicely made 3D markers. A set of trees that you can shift around when they get in the way on the forest template or pile of rocks for rough terrain works great.
Not a huge fan of 2D impassible terrain. 3D buildings go a long way. By this same measure, I'm not fond of "top of trees" 2D terrain for forests, but I understand why people use them. The only piece of terrain I haven't really solved is hills, which just don't have a great visual middle ground.
matous1983 wrote: Hi! Just wanted to show our new addition 2D terrain sets made of mousepad material for SmogCon UK tournament. You can check at http://www.gamemat.eu/
Not a knock on gamermat.eu as these look like a nice set of terrain pieces for those using 2D terrain. I was quite excited to restart Warmachine and Hordes when they released the new starter sets and rules. I actually ordered a couple starters (one WM the other Hordes) but then I found out the local group was strictly tournament focused and only played on 2D terrain it kind of killed my enthusiasm, as I'm more a modeler than a tournament player so I like to see my finished miniatures play on nice 3D terrain. YMMV.
It looks so bad when the top of a canopy of trees or a building is lower than the feet of an infantryman.
The local players here also have gone the route of all mousepad terrain. I won't play on it. My WM/H gaming went from weekly to ever two months, so I think I'm going to sell everything except 75 points of retribution. I want my wargaming to look like this:
and not like this:
I wonder if the majority of WM/H players would be better served by a diskwars approach.
While I don't play Warmachine (tried once when it first game out 15 years ago...and quite halfway through one turn!), I did a big doubletake when I attended a convention which had a side board for a Warmachine tournament.
The organizers were setting up the tables - green felt. They then walked around and tossed black and grey rectangles of felt on the tables (literally tossing them so they landed randomly) and that was it....
Tournament-accuracy be damned...that's not something I'd ever play or get into. As with Frozen, table top wargaming is a hobby for a reason. Personally if a rule set required 2D terrain I'd just skip it altogether. If you have to argue that much to decide if something is in cover or not in cover - your rules system needs serious work (or the players do!).
While I've occasionally gone back to look at Warmachine models; I do love me some Khador warjacks, the tournament/2D aspect would absolutely kill it for me stone dead. Shame really.
To be fair, WM/H doesn't suffer much from ambiguity about cover. 2d terrain plus lasers and base edges makes it very, very clear. There's no "half behind" or anything like that you have to judge.
As for the felt chunks on felt for the tournament, it makes sense when the majority of the armies being put there are unpainted and the players don't care about visuals at all. I also think the tables might get adjusted as objective templates get put down as there are rules about terrain in or near objectives. My guess is the organizers were simply dolling out the terrain templates for each table and they were adjusted to the scenarios before each round.
When a friend of mine first became a press ganger (Privateer's volunteer program) he asked me to help him make the terrain for 4 tables for his first event. I was like "Sure, I think I can get my hands on a hot wire cutter and I have loads of flock, sand and paint. I saw a few youtube videos on making hedges and trees quickly." His response: "I'm just going to the craft store to get those coloured sheets of foam a few millimetres thick and wanted your help to cut shapes out of them."
I stuck around playing a lot longer than I should have after that warning sign. It's been a steady decline in terrain quality since. And when the mousepad terrain came out, it was actually a step up in terms of overall look (they simply look better than felt or craft foam shapes) but a complete eradication of 3d terrain.
I've gotten used to flat area terrain (pref. with a couple removable trees or w/e) since 3-d can really be a pain, but yeah, the completely flat stuff across the board is just boring as hell.
One of the reasons I finally had to just give up on WMH in my area was people obsession with flat featureless color blob terrain, which went hand-in-hand with an overly obsessiveness about minute angle and distance measuring - as if it wasn't a wargame with all the limitations and inaccuracies of chunky physical objects.
They should just move to a grid based game like the old D&D minis and have everything flat and exact.
Yeah, I'm actually moving really in favor of grid systems. For all the nuance they lose, I feel they more than make up for it with how easy and unambiguous things are- other than the often-forgotten question of whether exact corners block, it's just so much less hassle than both of you feeling irritated about whether it's at the edge of range or not.
But, WM/H isn't grid-based, so, yeah, it's a little unreasonable, but promoted by the competitive environment...
The game might actually work quite well on hexes or squares with clear rules about which hex facing or square side los passes through (like Battletech has).
As for grid wargaming in general, it has a long history. Joseph Morschauser started doing it in the late 1950s:
Spoiler:
As far as we can tell, he's also the guy who came up with multiple figures mounted on a single base.
And people are keeping his original approach alive to this day. More in the UK than anywhere else. Though there are people all over the world doing it thanks to Bob Cordery's work preserving and representing the rules/approach. Mike Lewis' game:
Kanluwen wrote: Can someone explain this to me?
Why are Caine and the "remaining two Black 13th" a Mercenary unit?
From what I understand, Caine resigned his commission at the end of the Mark of Caine novel.
However they are partisan Cygnar (like Connie), so they can still be taken as a Cygnar caster.
I've lost track of a lot of the details since the fluff departed from the main books and became separate books that focus on Cygnar and everyone else be damned, but the jyst is The kid Caine was on assignment to assassinate is now in charge of Cygnar. Caine quit. Then Mark of Caine happened. B13 went after him l, their leader died, they decided they still liked Caine and hooked up with him.
Seems like an impossible task to release a new faction for this game. With limited pieces they'll need to have their finger truly on the pulse to have them meta relevant.
The new beta testing sounds promising to that end though.
I read something in that thread which confused me:
Obviously. The faction was limited. Nobody should be a "CoC player". Convergence were meant to be a side project for people who already played. It is obvious that the limited faction would primarily be of interest while it was new. It's no longer new, it doesn't get new models - it was limited. It was a one-time thing. I don't see the point in acting like this is some terrible surprising thing. In four years, not many people will be playing the NHF either. That doesn't mean that it won't be a really fun and cool side project for people to get into now.
Is that really the intent of these "limited" factions? To be side projects and not really be the main focus of players? Or is that simply one player's perception?
What is the advantage of a limited faction over an "unlimited" faction?
DarkTraveler777 wrote: What is the advantage of a limited faction over an "unlimited" faction?
When PP released CoC, they were pretty clear that nobody was to expect any further updates or models. They weren't ruling it out, normally PP includes broadly similar updates to each faction in each book. So, each faction gets a new warcaster, a new character jack, a new solo, a new unit attachement, etc. CoC would not take part in that, and would be updated if/when they could be.
The advantage is that it allows PP to play with new ideas, often fairly major ones, without the obligation to keep going with the idea of it doesn't work out and/or they lose interest.
In some ways it similar to the "half armies" GW is putting out for 40k, like Stormtroopers, harlies, or Deathwatch.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
frozenwastes wrote: If the faction gets a starter box, it's obviously meant to be something that new people might get into as their first faction.
Not necessarily, as plenty of people start new factions with the starter box.
I don't think PP every officially stated that it's not for new players, but I can't imagine anybody exactly encouraging it either.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: What is the advantage of a limited faction over an "unlimited" faction?
When PP released CoC, they were pretty clear that nobody was to expect any further updates or models. They weren't ruling it out, normally PP includes broadly similar updates to each faction in each book. So, each faction gets a new warcaster, a new character jack, a new solo, a new unit attachement, etc. CoC would not take part in that, and would be updated if/when they could be.
The advantage is that it allows PP to play with new ideas, often fairly major ones, without the obligation to keep going with the idea of it doesn't work out and/or they lose interest.
In some ways it similar to the "half armies" GW is putting out for 40k, like Stormtroopers, harlies, or Deathwatch.
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frozenwastes wrote: If the faction gets a starter box, it's obviously meant to be something that new people might get into as their first faction.
Not necessarily, as plenty of people start new factions with the starter box.
I don't think PP every officially stated that it's not for new players, but I can't imagine anybody exactly encouraging it either.
Thanks for the explanation that makes sense.
It does seem like a risk on the player's part to buy into a limited army if there is little to no future support. Especially in a game as evolving as WM/H.
It does seem like a risk on the player's part to buy into a limited army if there is little to no future support. Especially in a game as evolving as WM/H.
You're welcome.
Yeah, I think it was a risk, but not really that different than building any army in WM/H, given the shifts in meta. PP likes to both make money, and put out a reasonably balanced game, so if the faction were terrible, there likely would have been a few teaks added. Plenty of people just wanted to run something different (and CoC were very different).
The most regret I heard from people was trying to clean/assemble the first run restic models. Apparently they were unusually awful.
Sorry, but if you have a starter on the shelves for every faction, a new player might pick any of them. This talk about the release being for existing players as a side project makes no sense as there is nothing on the box differentiating it for new players. It's possible PP sees their limited armies as not meant for new players, but they do nothing to differentiate them. It also doesn't matter that the starter is also bought by people starting their second faction as that is true of almost every faction (that doesn't have a bad starter).
The defacto retail side of things simply has no differentiation.
Polonius wrote: The most regret I heard from people was trying to clean/assemble the first run restic models. Apparently they were unusually awful.
My enthusiasm for CoC died quickly after EVERY. SINGLE. PURCHASE. required me going to the website and showing what was missing or mismoulded. Hard to keep enthusiasm when you have a 3-4 week delay after purchase before you can assemble.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: What is the advantage of a limited faction over an "unlimited" faction?
When PP released CoC, they were pretty clear that nobody was to expect any further updates or models. They weren't ruling it out, normally PP includes broadly similar updates to each faction in each book. So, each faction gets a new warcaster, a new character jack, a new solo, a new unit attachement, etc. CoC would not take part in that, and would be updated if/when they could be.
The advantage is that it allows PP to play with new ideas, often fairly major ones, without the obligation to keep going with the idea of it doesn't work out and/or they lose interest.
In some ways it similar to the "half armies" GW is putting out for 40k, like Stormtroopers, harlies, or Deathwatch.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
frozenwastes wrote: If the faction gets a starter box, it's obviously meant to be something that new people might get into as their first faction.
Not necessarily, as plenty of people start new factions with the starter box.
I don't think PP every officially stated that it's not for new players, but I can't imagine anybody exactly encouraging it either.
Thanks for the explanation that makes sense.
It does seem like a risk on the player's part to buy into a limited army if there is little to no future support. Especially in a game as evolving as WM/H.
A lot of people had NO idea what limited release meant when PP first said it. They knew that COC wouldn't be updated as frequently as the main 8 factions, but they thought maybe they would get new stuff maybe every 2 years or so.
So far, the only new thing that has been released since COC first came out in 2013(?) has been a new colossal, which is part of the usual PP 2-variant colossal molds. So basically it's a variant of the original existing colossal that PP seems to love doing for all their colossals. Since then, NOTHING.
It's not even as good as the limited armies in WH40k, such as deathwatch etc etc since you can always take allies in wh40k. In COC, you have no allies IIRC. You can't even take mercs IIRC.
frozenwastes wrote: If the faction gets a starter box, it's obviously meant to be something that new people might get into as their first faction.
Convergence don't have a starter box in Mk3.
I haven't been paying that much attention to the MK3 starters. Given how fiddly and awful the plastic miniatures were in the MK2 starter for Convergence, that's reason enough not to inflict those models on a new player.
I like the idea of side factions that are not meant to be a person's only faction. When convergence was released, there was nothing about the release that would differentiate it from any other faction to someone who didn't already play the game. Now there is.
Some neat designs, but overall I think the faction feels out of place in the Iron Kingdoms. I was getting a Malifaux vibe throughout the video.
I agree, it definitely doesn't fit the aesthetic of the rest of the WarmaHordes world. I'm guessing they were going for a kind of Old Russian/Brothers Grimm fairy tale take on everything, but it feels like it missed that mark a bit. I do like the models, but they seem like they're from a different time frame then the rest of the sort of 'Renaissance/Steampunk' era that most of the armies in the game are. Though Convergence is certainly different as well, they still seem to work. As a Khador player, I like the new Epic Witch, she was always one of my favorite casters, and the fact that I can use her with these other beasts is cool too.
I'm a bit surprised the Orlock (Orgoth?) who formerly controlled the area these armies are from haven't emerged as a new army. Seems like they'd be a good fit.
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Not sure if this belongs here or in its own thread, but the new Grymkin Hordes faction has been revealed.
Spoiler:
Pretty nice, though all the rhymes are terrible for non-native speakers. I quickly gave up on trying to understand that part and waited for more direct fluff explanation…
If they want to do that they should at least add subtitles to their videos.
The models are nice, though I feel like they won't have much visual coherency on the battlefield. That beautiful First Heretic priest looks splendid but nothing like that huge SM cage-holding guy, and none of those looks like piggy cavalry or hollow men…
Also, PP, YET ONE MORE EVIL SEDUCTRESS THINGY? Aren't there enough of those already?
Some neat designs, but overall I think the faction feels out of place in the Iron Kingdoms. I was getting a Malifaux vibe throughout the video.
I agree, it definitely doesn't fit the aesthetic of the rest of the WarmaHordes world. I'm guessing they were going for a kind of Old Russian/Brothers Grimm fairy tale take on everything, but it feels like it missed that mark a bit. I do like the models, but they seem like they're from a different time frame then the rest of the sort of 'Renaissance/Steampunk' era that most of the armies in the game are. Though Convergence is certainly different as well, they still seem to work. As a Khador player, I like the new Epic Witch, she was always one of my favorite casters, and the fact that I can use her with these other beasts is cool too.
I'm a bit surprised the Orlock (Orgoth?) who formerly controlled the area these armies are from haven't emerged as a new army. Seems like they'd be a good fit.
You won't be able to take Zhavna Agha with beasts in a Khador army. She is Old Witch 2 and uses jacks for Khador. She is Old Witch 3 for Grymkin. Confirmed by PP staff that the model will come with two sets of cards, one for her as a Warcaster and one for her as a Warlock. So as a Warcaster she takes Khadoran Jacks. As a Warlock she takes Grymkin Beasts.
The Orgoth are never coming back. PP has said this on many occasions. Cryx use a lot of Orgoth magic in their armies so they'd be similar Cryx in how they play. Plus it's been heavily alluded to that when the Orgoth retreated, humans sent a plague with them that wiped out most of their kingdom. PP could always change their minds here but it seems unlikely as they've always been steadfast against the Orgoth returning.
The Grymkin seem out of time from the other factions as they are the Defiers are basically demons at this point. They are ones who stood up to Menoth and his Law and were cast into hell for it. The faction are their nightmares made flesh that seem to steal people's souls and punish their sins. Each Defier pretty much embodies a different deadly sin. The faction seems to be a mix of hell, folklore and horror stories. I like the feel of it and hopefully it comes together a bit more in the full fluff.
I may actually have a hordes faction in this as I would like a limited release so I don't have to keep up with the Joneses. I have enough Warmachine factions for that already.
The guy with the cages looks ok and the doggy too, the others... Bleh..
As if the Nightmare before Christmas animated movie was fit into the Iron Kingdoms, and IMHO the splicing of the two doesn't work too well. I like, that they moved away from the idea of making a regular army (a set race, with a definite country on the map), and tried to do this one with many unique characters.
I guess now all the spooky stuff will be associated with Malifaux Nevernorn/resurrectionists, and (I might be biased here, since I collect Neverborne and Ressers) in comparison minis PP tries to sell us look pale and not up to date in terms of details.
For being nightmares, the grymkin aren't very scary. I mean, in a world with cryx and legion monsters, pumpkin heads and talking pigs don't really cut it
Sining wrote: For being nightmares, the grymkin aren't very scary. I mean, in a world with cryx and legion monsters, pumpkin heads and talking pigs don't really cut it
They're not that kind of scary. The units you named are full of ironic, faustian-esq. punishments.
Cyriss is not everybody's darling. Its a sparse release without the dedication a faction needs to be successful.
I hope PP has a better hand when releasing the new Hordes faction.
Sining wrote: For being nightmares, the grymkin aren't very scary.
What makes a scary nightmare is subjective. For exmaple:
“I'm your worst nightmare!' said Teatime cheerfully.
The man shuddered.
'You mean ... the one with the giant cabbage and the sort of whirring knife thing?'
'Sorry?' Teatime looked momentarily nonplussed.
'Then you're the one where I'm falling, only instead of the ground underneath it's all --'
'No. In fact I'm --'
The guard sagged. 'Awww, not the one where there's all this kind of, you know, mud and then everything goes blue --'
'No, I'm --'
'Oh, gak, then you're the one where there's this door only there's no floor beyond it and then there's these claws --'
'No,' said Teatime. 'Not that one.' He withdrew a dagger from his sleeve. 'I'm the one where this man comes out of nowhere and kills you, stone dead.”
'Oh,' said the guard. 'Well that one's not very scary at all.'
Hmmmm. I have been wondering about PP's direction... there had to be so much energy that went into working on the Grymkin, and yet just before they have the MK3 release with things like Skorne where they have to completely redo the whole faction again afterwards because of how poorly done it was.
I don't mind the models, although I agree they're more like Malifaux. But I just don't get where PP is going... we're finally going to try playing again now that the errata hit, with my friend actually trying out Skorne. But I wish they would take on some feedback and put out what people want and are asking for... whereas this, while not bad, can't be something that was high on most people's wish lists.
RiTides wrote: Hmmmm. I have been wondering about PP's direction... there had to be so much energy that went into working on the Grymkin, and yet just before they have the MK3 release with things like Skorne where they have to completely redo the whole faction again afterwards because of how poorly done it was.
I don't mind the models, although I agree they're more like Malifaux. But I just don't get where PP is going... we're finally going to try playing again now that the errata hit, with my friend actually trying out Skorne. But I wish they would take on some feedback and put out what people want and are asking for... whereas this, while not bad, can't be something that was high on most people's wish lists.
Right. After two or three years of developing the rules for mk3, we see sloppy rules here and there. Simultaneously, PP has developed a new faction. I dont get it either.
The whole game is so immensely bloated. I wish they would of started working on a new different minis game years ago to stretch their appeal and slow down model saturation.
Wyrd just kicked their squad based system the Other Side and it did very well.
Wyrd's done a terrible job supporting anything but their flagship and more recently their tie-in RPG. It's definitely a better model, but having bought into or played I think 4 of their other games, it left me gun shy about their next big investment.
But yes, in theory, it's better to not run on one flagship (or PP's inextricable pair).
The problem is... there needs to be an awareness of the size of one's company. There has to be middle-ground between letting Warmahordes becoming a bloated corpse on life-support due to excess of "support", and the model Wyrd and Spartan follow, where they act like spastic children who can't focus on one thing long enough to give it legs to stand on.
Privateer waves their proverbial ****s around as if they were old GW (especially when attempting to bully retailers, etc...) but they aren't willing or able to expand beyond their one game in a meaningful way, to the detriment of said game.
So my completely unrealistic, personal wish/suggestion... Go reboot Monsterpocalypse. :-p
spiralingcadaver wrote: Wyrd's done a terrible job supporting anything but their flagship and more recently their tie-in RPG. It's definitely a better model, but having bought into or played I think 4 of their other games, it left me gun shy about their next big investment.
But yes, in theory, it's better to not run on one flagship (or PP's inextricable pair).
Your thoughts on Wyrd are why i passed on ToS as well.
As for Spartan, I'll never give them another dime.
My groups playing smaller and more obscure systems now with increasing frequency. It's like the GF you dont care much about ... We run the show and Less disappointment if it goes south.
Grymkin are DoA for me because of it's limited-release status. I can understand why PP takes that approach, but I don't see the appeal of jumping into a new army that will always be second-class.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought all of Wyrd's games that aren't Malifaux or the RPG were self-contained board/card games?
On topic, I'm pretty sold on this new army. None of the Hordes factions really excited me (though Skorne and Legion come close) but this one is definitely hitting most of the right notes.
re: wyrd, several games had expansion packs, and specifically Showdown and Puppet Wars had support promised but no delivery (PW had an initial release wave; a couple LE's; a 2nd edition core with no support for the 1st and no followups; Showdown had a preview for a parallel starter/expansion that was never made)
re: second class faction, you like the models/theme, or are fine being an underdog faction b/c you don't need to deal with sprawl. I was on board with mercs at the dawn of them (barely) being a faction...
TBH I don't mind so much them getting the Cyriss treatment; makes it sort of easy to "finish" the army, so to speak. They certainly will be secondary to my Cygnar. For me it's a perk, but I can totally see why that would make someone lose interest.
RiTides wrote: Hmmmm. I have been wondering about PP's direction... there had to be so much energy that went into working on the Grymkin, and yet just before they have the MK3 release with things like Skorne where they have to completely redo the whole faction again afterwards because of how poorly done it was.
I don't mind the models, although I agree they're more like Malifaux. But I just don't get where PP is going... we're finally going to try playing again now that the errata hit, with my friend actually trying out Skorne. But I wish they would take on some feedback and put out what people want and are asking for... whereas this, while not bad, can't be something that was high on most people's wish lists.
Right. After two or three years of developing the rules for mk3, we see sloppy rules here and there. Simultaneously, PP has developed a new faction. I dont get it either.
It's definitely not the PP from 4 years ago, which was when I got into the game.
The models are nice, though I feel like they won't have much visual coherency on the battlefield. That beautiful First Heretic priest looks splendid but nothing like that huge SM cage-holding guy, and none of those looks like piggy cavalry or hollow men…
Also, PP, YET ONE MORE EVIL SEDUCTRESS THINGY? Aren't there enough of those already?
My thoughts exactly. The designs are all over the place, but some models, like the Heretic is stunning.
I really like the evil tree.
Not a warmahordes player, but occasionally I get some models just for fun (actually more than I care to admit) , and some of these look great to me. Perhaps I like them because they dont fit with the usual factons?
Yeah, I don't get it either. It looks like they want to add a Malifaux-like vibe to the setting, but the setting never had that. These things look cool but don't fit IMHO, although as a Khador player I'm excited for Old Witch 2. I haven't felt the desire to play since MK3 launched though, the game just feels so different. Spam lists are more prolific than ever and that's not a style I have any interest in seeing or playing against. The new SR2017 things being thrown around sound interesting and I hope it brings back a balanced approach, but I doubt it. Basically nothing about the game excites me now, when before I was 100% on the Warmahordes bandwagon, but in the past year or so I actually rediscovered GW games and they, for whatever reason, feel a lot better to me (although nowhere near as clear with the rules and such).
Wayniac wrote: Basically nothing about the game excites me now, when before I was 100% on the Warmahordes bandwagon, but in the past year or so I actually rediscovered GW games and they, for whatever reason, feel a lot better to me (although nowhere near as clear with the rules and such).
I'm not to the "nothing" point, but I have followed a similar arc, and gravitated back to GW games! 30K in particular, as it seems to draw a more mature crowd (could be the barrier to entry, though ).
But that's why I posted what I did above - despite their interacting with the community a lot and trying to salvage the release of MK3 with frequent erratas, I only see reactions to symptoms... the real question is what direction they're heading in overall. I play Minions, and we actually haven't had anything released in MK3 except Commandos... a unit that is basically unfieldable. We just got a tease that we'll have a large based model coming in a year... but everything I've seen from PP since MK3 convinces me that it was NOT planned far in advance, and they're scrambling since.
I actually think it was a reaction to Guild Ball and competitive players jumping to that game... but a rushed new edition can do more harm than good, and I'm already wishing they would just do a real fix and make an "MK3.5" that actually works, rather than "MK3 + errata every 3 months"...
So right now I'm just waiting to see, and will try it again with Wehrkind when we get the chance - but I'm not too optimistic of their direction. Even the Minions PP board has dived down in activity lately... there's just nothing to talk about, and I don't think the Grymkin are helping on that front for most players.
Wayniac wrote: Basically nothing about the game excites me now, when before I was 100% on the Warmahordes bandwagon, but in the past year or so I actually rediscovered GW games and they, for whatever reason, feel a lot better to me (although nowhere near as clear with the rules and such).
I'm not to the "nothing" point, but I have followed a similar arc, and gravitated back to GW games! 30K in particular, as it seems to draw a more mature crowd (could be the barrier to entry, though ).
Same here. We usually play games at the 50 pt level, since larger games take too long. The errata thing every month or two has driven players away from the game. Some lost confidence, some think that their armies got nerfed too much, some think that other armies or combos are too strong game-wise.
Some here moved by to 40k despite the bad state of rules and the problems with competitive play.
Yeah. The every 3 months thing, even with the occasional dynamic updates, seems like it will just band-aid fix things. I am/was a big proponent against spam lists and was basically told no that's fine it's working as intended, and PP refuses to fix either power up or FA: U warjacks which would nip spam lists in the bud.
Through the Breach, their fairly unique and quite excellent (IMO) RPG tie in to Malifaux. There's a 2nd edition of the 2 basic books coming later this year, but it's mostly just a cleanup and aligning the archetypes in those books with the later ones.
Wayniac wrote: Basically nothing about the game excites me now, when before I was 100% on the Warmahordes bandwagon, but in the past year or so I actually rediscovered GW games and they, for whatever reason, feel a lot better to me (although nowhere near as clear with the rules and such).
I'm not to the "nothing" point, but I have followed a similar arc, and gravitated back to GW games! 30K in particular, as it seems to draw a more mature crowd (could be the barrier to entry, though ).
But that's why I posted what I did above - despite their interacting with the community a lot and trying to salvage the release of MK3 with frequent erratas, I only see reactions to symptoms... the real question is what direction they're heading in overall. I play Minions, and we actually haven't had anything released in MK3 except Commandos... a unit that is basically unfieldable. We just got a tease that we'll have a large based model coming in a year... but everything I've seen from PP since MK3 convinces me that it was NOT planned far in advance, and they're scrambling since.
I actually think it was a reaction to Guild Ball and competitive players jumping to that game... but a rushed new edition can do more harm than good, and I'm already wishing they would just do a real fix and make an "MK3.5" that actually works, rather than "MK3 + errata every 3 months"...
So right now I'm just waiting to see, and will try it again with Wehrkind when we get the chance - but I'm not too optimistic of their direction. Even the Minions PP board has dived down in activity lately... there's just nothing to talk about, and I don't think the Grymkin are helping on that front for most players.
Probably because they have? I think at one point, when the first colossals were released, they said they had basically used all their ideas from MK1 so everything else coming out was going to be new ideas.
Wayniac wrote: Basically nothing about the game excites me now, when before I was 100% on the Warmahordes bandwagon, but in the past year or so I actually rediscovered GW games and they, for whatever reason, feel a lot better to me (although nowhere near as clear with the rules and such).
I'm not to the "nothing" point, but I have followed a similar arc, and gravitated back to GW games! 30K in particular, as it seems to draw a more mature crowd (could be the barrier to entry, though ).
But that's why I posted what I did above - despite their interacting with the community a lot and trying to salvage the release of MK3 with frequent erratas, I only see reactions to symptoms... the real question is what direction they're heading in overall. I play Minions, and we actually haven't had anything released in MK3 except Commandos... a unit that is basically unfieldable. We just got a tease that we'll have a large based model coming in a year... but everything I've seen from PP since MK3 convinces me that it was NOT planned far in advance, and they're scrambling since.
I actually think it was a reaction to Guild Ball and competitive players jumping to that game... but a rushed new edition can do more harm than good, and I'm already wishing they would just do a real fix and make an "MK3.5" that actually works, rather than "MK3 + errata every 3 months"...
So right now I'm just waiting to see, and will try it again with Wehrkind when we get the chance - but I'm not too optimistic of their direction. Even the Minions PP board has dived down in activity lately... there's just nothing to talk about, and I don't think the Grymkin are helping on that front for most players.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but I suspect X-wing is a bigger culprit in grabbing players from WMH. From people I know up in Seattle and from a couple comments on this board, X-wing is the main game there and that's PP's hometown! WMH use to be the dominate game up there, so if X-wing has replaced it, PP is likely panicking. Loosing your hometown to another game is not good.
In all the posts where people talked about the strengths of X-wing over 40k, a lot of those points could be applied against WMH as well.
Some neat designs, but overall I think the faction feels out of place in the Iron Kingdoms. I was getting a Malifaux vibe throughout the video.
Spoiler:
I agree, it definitely doesn't fit the aesthetic of the rest of the WarmaHordes world. I'm guessing they were going for a kind of Old Russian/Brothers Grimm fairy tale take on everything, but it feels like it missed that mark a bit. I do like the models, but they seem like they're from a different time frame then the rest of the sort of 'Renaissance/Steampunk' era that most of the armies in the game are. Though Convergence is certainly different as well, they still seem to work. As a Khador player, I like the new Epic Witch, she was always one of my favorite casters, and the fact that I can use her with these other beasts is cool too.
I'm a bit surprised the Orlock (Orgoth?) who formerly controlled the area these armies are from haven't emerged as a new army. Seems like they'd be a good fit.
You won't be able to take Zhavna Agha with beasts in a Khador army. She is Old Witch 2 and uses jacks for Khador. She is Old Witch 3 for Grymkin. Confirmed by PP staff that the model will come with two sets of cards, one for her as a Warcaster and one for her as a Warlock. So as a Warcaster she takes Khadoran Jacks. As a Warlock she takes Grymkin Beasts.
The Orgoth are never coming back. PP has said this on many occasions. Cryx use a lot of Orgoth magic in their armies so they'd be similar Cryx in how they play. Plus it's been heavily alluded to that when the Orgoth retreated, humans sent a plague with them that wiped out most of their kingdom. PP could always change their minds here but it seems unlikely as they've always been steadfast against the Orgoth returning.
The Grymkin seem out of time from the other factions as they are the Defiers are basically demons at this point. They are ones who stood up to Menoth and his Law and were cast into hell for it. The faction are their nightmares made flesh that seem to steal people's souls and punish their sins. Each Defier pretty much embodies a different deadly sin. The faction seems to be a mix of hell, folklore and horror stories. I like the feel of it and hopefully it comes together a bit more in the full fluff.
I had assumed you wouldn't be able to play Zhavna as a Warlock with a Khador army, I just didn't know if she had a similar set up to Magnus 2 and the Skorne, where if you have a skorne army, and it's big enough to take 2 warlocks, you can take Magnus 2,and he can have his warjacks, but everything else is still Skorne/hordes.
I'm fine with it either way, as that's just more models I dont need to buy (the Grymkin beasts), but that being said, if I could use her in this way, I would probably get a few beast, just on the oft chance I could use her in 2 warcaster, or battlegroup only games.
Too bad that they're against using the Orgoth for anything. With GW dipping back into their past and fluff for a lot of their new stuff and having success with it, it doesn't seem like such a bad idea. If we ever get squats (or Demiurg), I suppose that would be their equivalent of having the Orgoth (even though the Squats did actually have an army at one point).
I realize the Grymkin are more like daemonic creatures, but their asthetic seems to modern for the iron kingdoms. They seem like 1920's/30's characters and designs vs most of the world having a very victorian steampunk vibe. If anything, they are VERY different then anything currently in the world, so I can't give them flak for not thinking outside the box.
Orgoth were never part of the tabletop for PP though. They were always the bogeyman of the PP world. The one thing that could get the Iron Kingdoms to stop fighting each other would be the Orgoth.
They weren't dwarves either, just humans who used soul magic.
They have a whole continent that hasn't shown up directly, I would hope they would elect to explore that continent with new factions rather than dredge up yet another from the area they already have. It almost feels like the Iron Kingdoms are overcrowded with factions to me; there are so many all layered on top of one another in a relatively small area of the world; why doesn't the other 80% matter at all? I know there are reasons for this (beyond the simple mechanics of making it work on the tabletop), but it's a feeling that has always made me shy away from the lore a little.
Wayniac wrote: Basically nothing about the game excites me now, when before I was 100% on the Warmahordes bandwagon, but in the past year or so I actually rediscovered GW games and they, for whatever reason, feel a lot better to me (although nowhere near as clear with the rules and such).
I'm not to the "nothing" point, but I have followed a similar arc, and gravitated back to GW games! 30K in particular, as it seems to draw a more mature crowd (could be the barrier to entry, though ).
But that's why I posted what I did above - despite their interacting with the community a lot and trying to salvage the release of MK3 with frequent erratas, I only see reactions to symptoms... the real question is what direction they're heading in overall. I play Minions, and we actually haven't had anything released in MK3 except Commandos... a unit that is basically unfieldable. We just got a tease that we'll have a large based model coming in a year... but everything I've seen from PP since MK3 convinces me that it was NOT planned far in advance, and they're scrambling since.
I actually think it was a reaction to Guild Ball and competitive players jumping to that game... but a rushed new edition can do more harm than good, and I'm already wishing they would just do a real fix and make an "MK3.5" that actually works, rather than "MK3 + errata every 3 months"...
So right now I'm just waiting to see, and will try it again with Wehrkind when we get the chance - but I'm not too optimistic of their direction. Even the Minions PP board has dived down in activity lately... there's just nothing to talk about, and I don't think the Grymkin are helping on that front for most players.
Probably because they have? I think at one point, when the first colossals were released, they said they had basically used all their ideas from MK1 so everything else coming out was going to be new ideas.
Not true at all. A modern version of Colossals had been foreshadowed in the Mk1 expansion Superiority (noting as well the Circle Gargantuan has been in the rpg since before WMH was even a thing). They were always going to appear even before Mk2 was conceived.
Well well well. As a Malifaux Neverborn player, these are rather nice. I'll be adding some to the collection for sure - mostly the Dread Rots, because I love me some pumpkin headed monsters, and the Witch Wood, which is just fantastic.Possibly The Dreamer as well if the sculpt is anything like that art.
Wayniac wrote: Basically nothing about the game excites me now, when before I was 100% on the Warmahordes bandwagon, but in the past year or so I actually rediscovered GW games and they, for whatever reason, feel a lot better to me (although nowhere near as clear with the rules and such).
I'm not to the "nothing" point, but I have followed a similar arc, and gravitated back to GW games! 30K in particular, as it seems to draw a more mature crowd (could be the barrier to entry, though ).
But that's why I posted what I did above - despite their interacting with the community a lot and trying to salvage the release of MK3 with frequent erratas, I only see reactions to symptoms... the real question is what direction they're heading in overall. I play Minions, and we actually haven't had anything released in MK3 except Commandos... a unit that is basically unfieldable. We just got a tease that we'll have a large based model coming in a year... but everything I've seen from PP since MK3 convinces me that it was NOT planned far in advance, and they're scrambling since.
I actually think it was a reaction to Guild Ball and competitive players jumping to that game... but a rushed new edition can do more harm than good, and I'm already wishing they would just do a real fix and make an "MK3.5" that actually works, rather than "MK3 + errata every 3 months"...
So right now I'm just waiting to see, and will try it again with Wehrkind when we get the chance - but I'm not too optimistic of their direction. Even the Minions PP board has dived down in activity lately... there's just nothing to talk about, and I don't think the Grymkin are helping on that front for most players.
Probably because they have? I think at one point, when the first colossals were released, they said they had basically used all their ideas from MK1 so everything else coming out was going to be new ideas.
Not true at all. A modern version of Colossals had been foreshadowed in the Mk1 expansion Superiority (noting as well the Circle Gargantuan has been in the rpg since before WMH was even a thing). They were always going to appear even before Mk2 was conceived.
Isn't that what I said? After colossals, they used up all their ideas from mk1
I don't get how that was a reply to my post, though. New ideas doesn't mean they're listening to player feedback effectively, as this release shows, in my opinion. Ymmv, of course...
Thanatos73 wrote: Orgoth were never part of the tabletop for PP though. They were always the bogeyman of the PP world. The one thing that could get the Iron Kingdoms to stop fighting each other would be the Orgoth.
They weren't dwarves either, just humans who used soul magic.
I knew the Orgoth weren't dwarfs, I was just using the squats as a comparison, as they're probably the most famous thing GW has come right out at said "We are never making those again." Apparently they were eaten by the tyranids or something, so they still acknowledge they exist, just not during 40k era (could we still get them in 30k ).
In any case, when I started playing Warmachine in 2004, I recall some of the earlier fluff, mentioning the orgoth, and the very early colossals. But I stopped following the warmachine fluff pretty much after escalation, since it was more just character based dialogues, and I don't really get into that. I remember them saying the Colossals would be too big to use in a game, but I suppose they changed their minds on that (yes, I realize these colossals we have now are different then the originals they made)? Maybe they will for the Orgoth too.
Perhaps they could create a sub faction (sort of like the Grymkin here) which is made up of people using Orgoth tech, like the Khador Doomreavers, or some of the Cryx stuff that's been mentioned. Then it wouldn't be the 'literal' orgoth coming back, more of like an infectious 'curse' of the Orgoth.
FEATURES: The warcaster once known as Goreshade was an eldritch, one of a strain of abominations who fed on the spiritual essence of others and consorted with the Nightmare Empire of Cryx. Now, Lord Ghyrrshyld has been restored by the goddess Scyrah and is filled with renewed purpose. While Ghyrrshyld does not speak of what happened to restore his body, he now fights against those who imperil Scyrah, and many speak of him as being filled with the goddess’ light.
TRADE POINTS: The newest incarnation of the former Cryx warcaster Goreshade, Lord Ghyrrshyld has been returned to life by the goddess Scyrah to lead his people once more. One of the greatest masters of occult lore, Ghyrrshyld can shut down enemy magics with ease, thanks to Field Marshal [Arcane Vortex], and can return the dead to life with his Revive spell. Now a champion of the Iosan gods, Ghyrrshyld has mastered control of Nyssor’s magical blade Voass and is able to surround his army in intense cold, freezing any who dare close with them to do harm.
FEATURES: Aelyth Vyr is one of the most distinguished ryssovass ever to have watched over the mountain passes of the Shard Spires. He is the embodiment of the ryssovass tradition—a steadfast defender of his people and a merciless killer bent on ending the lives of those blighted Nyss who have forsaken their duties. With the recovery of Nyssor, Aelyth has found new purpose in overseeing and guiding the ryssovass who have flocked to Ios in aid of the Retribution.
TRADE POINTS: A champion among the Ryssovass Defenders (PIP 35077), Aelyth Vyr pairs well with all the new Nyss releases as well as with warcasters who favor strong melee solos like Elara, Death’s Shadow (PIP 35076) and Thyron, Sword of Truth (PIP 35064).
FEATURES: Through years of spiritual introspection and study, the dedicated priests of Nyssor learn to bend the elements of winter to their will. Reassured that their god Nyssor is safe and well defended, the priests have hastened to Ios to stand against those who would threaten the frozen god. No strangers to combat, these priests now take to the fight, drawing upon their mastery over winter so that they may aid their allies in the Retribution.
TRADE POINTS: As a master of winter magic, the Priest of Nyssor provides several powerful benefits to his fellow Nyss warriors, including an Elite Cadre, giving all Nyss Immunity: Cold, and a spell that grants Nyss in his command range +1 to attack rolls. This makes the Priest of Nyssor pair exceptionally well with the Ryssovass Defenders (PIP 35077), Aelyth Vyr (PIP 35086), and Cylena Raefyll & Nyss Hunters (PIP 41109).
FEATURES: Fane Knight Guardians swear oaths to protect Scyrah, her fane, and her priesthood. These knights served the ailing goddess well before the Retribution came to prominence and have joined the cause to see the goddess and the Iosan people restored. These guardians regard several of the most pious warcasters of the Retribution as champions of Scyrah, defending them as if they were extensions of the goddess. While formidable protectors, it is their devotion that lends to their tenacity and gives them strength to fight against overwhelming enemy force.
TRADE POINTS: A new Retribution warcaster attachment, the Fane Knight Guardian stands ready to protect their warcaster from any and all harm, thanks to Guard Dog, Shield Guard, and the new Total Devotion ability, which grants the Guardian +4 ARM and immunity to Knock Down while within their warcaster’s command range. At 4 points, the Fane Knight Guardian is sure to be another highly popular release for all Retribution armies.
FEATURES: House Shyeel is best known for its feats of ingenuity in the engineering and production of myrmidons. Unlike other arcane mechanics in the service of the Retribution, Shyeel arcanists are equipped to wade into battle to return impaired myrmidons to the fight. These arcanists train to master both the arcane arts and the practical skills necessary to repair the damaged mechanisms of a myrmidon under fire, manipulating kinetic force for both offense and defense.
TRADE POINTS: With access to Empower and Repair [d3+1], the three-man House Shyeel Arcanist unit is sure to become a ubiquitous support unit for warjack-centric Retribution armies.
FEATURES: The trio known as the Spears of Scyrah count among the most fanatical mage hunters in the Retribution. Worshiping Scyrah in her guise as Avenger of the Vanished, they aspire to appease the goddess by striking down those who have caused harm to the lost Iosan gods. The Spears have had many members over the centuries, starting from the first years of the Retribution’s existence, and all have accepted their mortality to serve without fear of death.
TRADE POINTS: Dauntless fighters, the Spears of Scyrah pair great with nearly every Retribution warcaster, thanks to their Shield Guard ability and a modest point cost of 9. Combined with their excellent melee attributes and Vengeance, the Spears of Scyrah are sure to be an extremely popular unit for all Retribution armies.
FEATURES: Designed for Issyria’s exclusive use and fitted with experimental technology that includes a cutting-edge arc node, Hemera magnifies the warcaster’s arcane abilities. The myrmidon wades into the thick of combat to take Issyria’s place, allowing her to guide the flow of combat more effectively without putting herself in harm’s way.
TRADE POINTS: Hemera’s Empowered Arc Node ability makes it an ideal warjack for spellslinging warcasters like Adeptis Rahn (PIP 35002), while its Mark Target ability makes it a favorite of Lord Arcanist Ossyan (PIP 35046) and Ravyn, Eternal Light (PIP 35004). When paired with its bonded warcaster Issyria, Sybil of Dawn (PIP 35058), Hemera provides its favored warcaster with a free upkeep in addition to its numerous other benefits.
FEATURES: The Nyss ryssovas were once proud defenders of the winding mountain passes of the Shard Spires. Having lost their sense of purpose after so many of their order were corrupted by Everblight, the remaining ryssovas relocated to Ios alongside their fellow refugees, where their frozen god is protected. They do not hesitate to join the Retribution of Scyrah in battle, seeing this as part of their sacred responsibility.
TRADE POINTS: The Ryssovass Defenders boast Tough and Weapon Master alongside a moderate 10/16 point cost. When led to battle by Aelyth Vyr (PIP 35086), these grim Nyss swordsmen become the bane of enemy cavalry, gaining Hard. The Ryssovass pair great with warcasters like Dawnlord Vyros (PIP 35001) and Thyron, Sword of Truth (PIP 35064).
FEATURES: The swordsmen of House Ellowuyr practice a unique traditional discipline of fighting that utilizes perfectly balanced blades and fluid movements. Employing great sweeping motions they can cleave an opponent in two and continue to the next without losing momentum, while also being able to quickly maneuver to deflect incoming projectiles with the flat of their blades. They fight at the request of Thyron, Sword of Truth, who offered the Retribution the aid of those heroic swordsmen most loyal to him.
TRADE POINTS: Swordsmen without peer, House Ellowuyr Swordsmen pair great with offensive-focused warcasters like Lord Ghyrrshyld, the Forgiven (PIP 35087), Issyria, Sybil of Dawn (PIP 35058), and Thyron, Sword of Truth (PIP 35064).
Goreshade's model is not good. His hands are huge. His shoulder don't line up with where his neck should be. The armor looks weirdly mechanical. Also his face reminds me of Benedict Cumberbach.
Never been a fan of the Nyss. All the retribution other than Goreshade looks good.
I haven't been paying attention to recent releases. Any chance any of this is hard plastic or metal? Or is a load of it going to be PVC? Those infantry might be pretty bad in PVC (the last PVC stuff I got from Privateer was some Convergence stuff and I haven't bought anything from them since).
frozenwastes wrote: Never been a fan of the Nyss. All the retribution other than Goreshade looks good.
I haven't been paying attention to recent releases. Any chance any of this is hard plastic or metal? Or is a load of it going to be PVC? Those infantry might be pretty bad in PVC (the last PVC stuff I got from Privateer was some Convergence stuff and I haven't bought anything from them since).
The Warjack Might be hard plastic, but doubtful for a single character. Far more likely a metal/resin hybrid. The ten man units are likely pvc, and the rest metal, maybe some resins parts mixed in.
Anyone else pick up the newest version of Madrak besides myself?
I'm still trying to figure out what material it was. It wasn't resin, and it wasn't the pvc junk they've used before, but a new shinier plastic that they've never used before.
As far as I know he's the only figure that's been released like that too.
The detail was quite nice though. I'd like to see them use that plastic on some other kits in the future!
I'm still trying to figure out what material it was. It wasn't resin, and it wasn't the pvc junk they've used before, but a new shinier plastic that they've never used before.
As far as I know he's the only figure that's been released like that too.
The detail was quite nice though. I'd like to see them use that plastic on some other kits in the future!
It was resin, it'll just be a different mix. Resin is really variable in colour and stuff.
Heh...I know Warmachine/Horde players don't care that much about the fluff when they're playing, but this new Goreshade is really making the trend of "we still allow former incarnations of the same character in game" pretty stupid.
But seriously, Goreshade becoming part of the Retribution AND following Scyrah? The guy who wanted to kill all the elven gods to save the souls of his people and who sacrificed litterally everything for that purpose? So what, he changed his mind because Scyrah resurrected him?
That's not character development. That's more like a complete reversal of what made the core of this character. But hey, guess they will explain that in another novel.
Sarouan wrote: That's not character development. That's more like a complete reversal of what made the core of this character. But hey, guess they will explain that in another novel.
IDK, I've known a couple people I'd never have expected to who "found Jesus" and basically did a personality 180... They coulda' been going for that
PP is very inconsistent with their resin mixes. I've gotten Colossals and Gargantuans that had different parts in substantially different shades of grey. So yeah, it's either metal, PVC plastic which softer and comes off the sprue, styrene plastic which is harder and comes on the sprue, or resin which is varying shades of grey with no sprue but injection plugs/points.
As far as Goreshade, will have to wait to read the full story in NQ.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am aware this is not the end of the world. but as a father of three with two jobs, limited gaming time and an aversion to digital products, this is just another obstacle in me getting games in.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I am aware this is not the end of the world. but as a father of three with two jobs, limited gaming time and an aversion to digital products, this is just another obstacle in me getting games in.
Yup, been known for months.
I saw the way the wind was blowing and begrudgingly bought a small tablet for about £50. I suggest you do the same as the only other ways they're available is via print on demand for card stock ones or they're also available as a PDF to print off.
Makes sense in the long run if they want a living rules set, but yes I feel your annoyance.
RiTides wrote: It drives me crazy. Warmachine is making all the wrong moves lately, and GW the right ones... it's like Bizarro world!
Ehh, I don't know. This one makes some amount of sense. With their move to constantly update/balance stuff, any cards being bought would quickly become outdated. We'd also be running into the problem of boxes having cards with the wrong stats, etc.
A GW move would be releasing 'Season Packs' of cards and then demanding you replace them with the newest versions every four-eight months.
As much as I prefer having physical copies of cards... I get the logic behind the change.
I really dislike integrating digital aps etc into physical table top games and cant quite put my finger on why... maybe someone else has some insight on psychology of that.
It IS needed though, to keep the balance good and meta game from getting stale. Nobody wants a bunch of models they spent money + time painting that never see play because they are under powered/useless.
I've been meaning to get myself a decent printer for a while now, ill look into printing cards out myself to keep it old school once I do.
anab0lic wrote: I really dislike integrating digital aps etc into physical table top games and cant quite put my finger on why... maybe someone else has some insight on psychology of that.
I'm not sure of the psychology, but I suffer from the same condition.
Although, I have to say it's getting less of a problem, mainly because I also play Guild Ball, and their season 3 rulebook has been available as a free download for months, but won't be out as a physical book until the end of April. Using a PDF on my tablet has been surprisingly pleasant, largely because it's a tight rule set but doesnt always have the rule you want where you'd expect it, so a keyword search has been hugely beneficial to resolving queries during games quickly.
I guess it'll follow with WMH, if people suddenly find digital makes the game go smoother, then they'll start to find it less of a problem.
anab0lic wrote: I really dislike integrating digital aps etc into physical table top games and cant quite put my finger on why... maybe someone else has some insight on psychology of that.
For me, I like the 'weight' of having something physical to hold. I don't quite get the same buzz I do when it's a digital product. It's the same reason I prefer buying hardcopies of games, going into stores to hand over money for an item, etc.
Personally, I generally consider my gaming time my "unplugged" time, with the exception of RPGs where I'll have a bunch of references open for GMing, I generally like to not need to think about email or whatever else is on my device.
I tried switching to digital with RPGs - as a software guy I thought it would be a neat improvement. However I quickly abandoned it and now much prefer "analog" versions. There's a feeling of certainty that cards and books provide, that tablets and phones lack. I don't have to think about unlocking, scrolling, wifi, etc.
anab0lic wrote: I really dislike integrating digital aps etc into physical table top games and cant quite put my finger on why... maybe someone else has some insight on psychology of that.
For me, I like the 'weight' of having something physical to hold. I don't quite get the same buzz I do when it's a digital product. It's the same reason I prefer buying hardcopies of games, going into stores to hand over money for an item, etc.
They still have cards available in PDF form. Currently it's just the updated ones, but once the switch-over hapens all cards will be available for free online. Just need to print them out.
Personally I like physical stat cards because it's easier to identify what has and hasn't activated and hand over to my opponent so they can read it for themselves.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Personally, I generally consider my gaming time my "unplugged" time, with the exception of RPGs where I'll have a bunch of references open for GMing, I generally like to not need to think about email or whatever else is on my device.
Same here. I spend all day in front of a computer, I don't want to take a tablet with me to gaming.
BoLShas a bunch of pics of the Grymkin taken at Adepticon. Overall I'm impressed; I like them more now than when they first debuted. (Not sure if I can/should embed them here.)
As much as I prefer having physical copies of cards... I get the logic behind the change.
I also understand it, but I still feel this is a bad decision. It's putting up an obstacle to time poor, digitally averse people getting their armies on the table. Those of us who use cards are used to keeping track of the changes. Being forced into either an approach to play we don't like or an additional monetary cost doesn't go down well.
Glad I am in good company here. Im in IT and do everything digital also but I cannot read digital books or PDF documentation.
I liked Warmachine for the cards, I had my units and what they did at a quick an easy glance. They took up little space as well. Played a game of AoS and had to print out all the warscrolls, it was really frustrating having all that paper.
I played a game with warroom and also didnt like it much as I seemed to hit buttons alot that took me out of matchup and I had to reload alot.
That doesn't sound ideal... and I've found anything people have to print, particularly print every few months for new erratas, just doesn't happen. I don't really like the idea of needing to change things so frequently, personally...
See, my plan is just to buy the car pack......then if I ever need to, get the free PDF and glue them OVER the other cards, cause those cards have no real value.
I dislike having to use a tablet and Automatically losing a game if I can acess it. my tablet has low poer to begin with.
And here's a bad comparison shot of Glacier King to Mountain King to a pair of batteries.
I really should have lined up the Glacier King to the Mountain King rather than lined
up the bases. They are comparable in size, but the boat and dynamic pose fools the
eye a bit.
See, for me, the sea king is a big missed opprotunity design wise. They trolls didnt think that, if it had a giant ship, you mount a cannon on it?
Its honestly kinda boring. not to mention, too expensive IMO
hotsauceman1 wrote: See, for me, the sea king is a big missed opprotunity design wise. They trolls didnt think that, if it had a giant ship, you mount a cannon on it?
Its honestly kinda boring. not to mention, too expensive IMO
lol yeah, but they wanted to give him the equivalent in an acid swarm.
So there's that.
My problem is the points cost. 42 is a lot. At least it's the answer.
MM is having a massive sale on their WMH stuff. Seems like almost the whole inventory is on clearance; supposedly 850 SKUs on sale. Prices are maybe 2/3 of the RRP or even lower in some cases.
Maybe Mini Market is throwing their weight around now that GW lets them sell online, and threatening to dump all warmahordes products? If enough of the online sellers jump onboard, that is something PP really cant ignore.
Whoa, that's really interesting! And I think you're onto something Bossk. Also, maybe they're just clearing out inventory to make way for GW merchandise for online shopping carts / when 8th hits. Kind of crazy!
highlord tamburlaine wrote: That's oddly curious they're doing this, in spite of Privateer's whole pricing mandate.
I like a lot of the models, but my interest in the game died when they decided to play ball like Asmodee/ GW sadly.
That's a good point. It really looks like they are trying to dumpster their inventory this time and are blatantly advertising 80% off 'clearance' sale.
looking through it, i noticed a lot of the sale was card decks, books, the old iron kingdom line, and the like, with the newer end stuff not getting nearly as good of discounts for the most part that i saw
maybe they hope this short length sale with help with clear the stuff that otherwise is going to end up in the clearance section forever and a day
Most the stuff the last month or so doesn't appear to be on clearance. I think this is more an inventory realignment with them dumping older stock that they though they would have higher demand for. It's likely the surge they saw with the release of MK3 died down and now their sitting on product. Still, I suspect they are betting on GW sales to cover the loss of WMH if PP decides to cut them off. Heck, they probably looked at the GW sales and might have decided PP isn't worth the headache now and can afford to lose PP.
but GW's discount cap is actually a boon for US online sellers as it finally means (if they accept it) they can offer GW stuff online without the super secret need to email/phone to find out what the store stocks (or if they have it in)
whereas PPs (since they started with better T&C) meant that a line the store could already sell on line, and discount if they wanted to compete on price (or needed extra cashflow fast or to liquidate poorly selling stuff) now became far less useful
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: but GW's discount cap is actually a boon for US online sellers as it finally means (if they accept it) they can offer GW stuff online without the super secret need to email/phone to find out what the store stocks (or if they have it in)
It's the removal of the rule against selling through webcarts that allows US sellers to sell online. The discount cap isn't actually necessary for that to work... and still leaves sellers who follow the rules at a disadvantage against those who find ways around them.
Restricting how people sell your product rarely results in a better selling environment for those trying to sell your product.
put down a order for 3 army's today, and a seperate order for each army box :0 too much awesome will be coming !
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).
Maybe they will for the Orgoth too.
