TL: DR - Having had a chance to go over the leaked cards It just feels like PP screamed to the world "major changes and rebalance EVERYTHING", but really they just settled for "Tone down the OP, maintain status quo, minor changes so people buy a couple new units"
Exactly how I feel with what they done to my PoM, I'll have buy an almost new army for them to stay current/competitive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Has anyone got a link to the leaked cards?
To quote someone else
"The issue is that PP took an axe to the killing power in the game and an axe to defense and stealth. The changes are about how fun the game is to actually play. Basically, since Legion is going to have to take infantry (ish - Legion players are already considering how to get around it) your anti-infantry tech will have a job. Because Cryx has to take jacks, your anti-ARM tech will have a job. Because very few units are stealth now, your shooting will have a job.
The point of all these changes is so that in the end you won't have to worry if someone brought a list parts of your list just won't have a hope against. You can fearlessly take Trenchers because the Khador player across the table isn't going to have a screen of Def17 infantry with boosted sprays rushing down your throat."
This is kind of what I think they're going for in MK3, and explains why all the extreme def bonuses went away. Every single Khador unit is now def 12 it seems. No more iron flesh
And that's my problem with a lot of the MK3 stuff I've seen: a lot of the already good stuff got minor buffs, the crazy OP stuff got solid nerfs (usually), but the mediocre and bad stuff got minor buffs at best and often they got even worse.
That and the more interesting, outlandish abilities get deleted wholesale. Which is all the same as what happened when Mk1 --> Mk2, so I'm not surprised. At least this time I think the core rules weren't changed so much as to invalidate entire factions' playstyles?
And that's my problem with a lot of the MK3 stuff I've seen: a lot of the already good stuff got minor buffs, the crazy OP stuff got solid nerfs (usually), but the mediocre and bad stuff got minor buffs at best and often they got even worse.
That and the more interesting, outlandish abilities get deleted wholesale. Which is all the same as what happened when Mk1 --> Mk2, so I'm not surprised. At least this time I think the core rules weren't changed so much as to invalidate entire factions' playstyles?
Maybe not a core rule, but there is certainly a lot more infantry hate still which puts a damper on Cryx's play style.
Sining wrote: To quote someone else
"The issue is that PP took an axe to the killing power in the game and an axe to defense and stealth. The changes are about how fun the game is to actually play. Basically, since Legion is going to have to take infantry (ish - Legion players are already considering how to get around it) your anti-infantry tech will have a job. Because Cryx has to take jacks, your anti-ARM tech will have a job. Because very few units are stealth now, your shooting will have a job.
The point of all these changes is so that in the end you won't have to worry if someone brought a list parts of your list just won't have a hope against. You can fearlessly take Trenchers because the Khador player across the table isn't going to have a screen of Def17 infantry with boosted sprays rushing down your throat."
This is kind of what I think they're going for in MK3, and explains why all the extreme def bonuses went away. Every single Khador unit is now def 12 it seems. No more iron flesh
Oh there's Iron Flesh alright, but it buffs armor instead of defense
Kalamadea wrote: TL: DR - Having had a chance to go over the leaked cards It just feels like PP screamed to the world "major changes and rebalance EVERYTHING", but really they just settled for "Tone down the OP, maintain status quo, minor changes so people buy a couple new units"
+1. I feel like the majority of the edition could have been wrapped up in a 2.5 prime book and fat errata deck for $20 or something across the whole game.
I'm not going to argue exactly what would and wouldn't work there, but what I'm saying is that the scale of their changes are largely superficial, and then there's some stuff where it just doesn't feel necessary- for instance at first I thought tried & true was great little flavor, but then looked at it for another 30 seconds, and +1 health when healed is really not worth the space it takes up to write. It's like 2/3 of the time they're talking about streamlining and the other 1/3 they're adding superfluous rules.
IDK. my response to the edition shift is pretty lukewarm. Maybe it'll fix things. Maybe I'll even play. But it sure doesn't have me lunging over to my old collection to sort my minis/start prepping minis to paint.
A 2.5 edition would be a nightmare with the points values as
they are currently. 2.5 would be just cleaning up frenzy language,
but it wouldn't include all the feat changes, all the additions
of field marshal. I think people are used to codices staying
the same between edition changes, and that wouldn't work
with some of what they've done without just acknowledging
that they want points to go to half points or whatnot.
I don't think there's anything wrong with introducing a half-point scale if it means that all of the basically stable things didn't need to get reprinted.
What I'm saying is that this is a surprisingly conservative new edition. I haven't actively played 40k since, like, the early 2000's and certainly don't use it as my main reference point.
IDK, they've done what they've done. I was kinda' excited before but it's so conservative that I'm not sure what they're actually achieving with it.
spiralingcadaver wrote: I don't think there's anything wrong with introducing a half-point scale if it means that all of the basically stable things didn't need to get reprinted.
What I'm saying is that this is a surprisingly conservative new edition. I haven't actively played 40k since, like, the early 2000's and certainly don't use it as my main reference point.
IDK, they've done what they've done. I was kinda' excited before but it's so conservative that I'm not sure what they're actually achieving with it.
Pretty much. I last played just as Colossals were coming out. Heard about mk3 and followed this thread. The result? A resounding "meh". Nothing new really, nothing to be excited about. Won't be getting out the Khador again.
spiralingcadaver wrote: I don't think there's anything wrong with introducing a half-point scale if it means that all of the basically stable things didn't need to get reprinted.
What I'm saying is that this is a surprisingly conservative new edition. I haven't actively played 40k since, like, the early 2000's and certainly don't use it as my main reference point.
IDK, they've done what they've done. I was kinda' excited before but it's so conservative that I'm not sure what they're actually achieving with it.
But they would have had to reprint more than it would have been worth to simply
"patch" things.
Change how powerfields work for one.
Another is that it seems as if Cavalry rules are changing
since everything that was a cavalry model gets Reposition. Artillery
rules are different.
Mechanic repairs.
There are enough differences that an errata document would have
been a mess.
That's why it would take a new book. There are plenty of x.5 editions where the stats etc. changed little enough that it survived in the same edition with core errata. All of those things could have been addressed in the core rules, except mechanics, unless I'm misremembering.
Even PP made a x.5 or w/e edition nearing the end of 1st, which had errata for the outliers plus fine-tuned rules.
IDK, it's not what they went with, just saying that I'm not a fan of the half-assed new edition. Either perfect your current edition or make radical changes, don't kinda' change things but mostly leave them the same but not enough to keep the current edition. It didn't get me excited to play a new innovative version of the game nor was it minimal enough to just address the corner case issues.
I'm saying that these rules are enough to warrant a new edition,
not just a .5 book. It's also allowed them to re-release the
existing models as a whole (kind of like how convergence
was imagined) rather than piecemeal (which is how you get
weaponmaster warders). As you've said, they've done a .5
book, and in the end maybe they didn't like the result a .5 book
had on clearing up issues.
After looking through the leaked PDFs and taking in everything that's been said through Insiders and PP's podcast, I'm not sure this game is going to finally be the edition of Warmachine that actually is about the steam powered robots. It looks like we'll see marginally more because of higher jack points but that it'll be a small subset of warjacks that are viable along with a smaller subset of infantry and solos with the difference being that they'll be different ones than the subset that dominated MK2.
You'll see more because of that and you'll see warjack 'casters
as being more effective with some of their rewrites. The 1"
melee range on heavies will make the ones that exist more
effective, and the free focus for 'jacks will mitigate stationary/
knockdown.
I'm worried that Borka2 won't be all that much better, but I'd like
to actually try some games with him before I make that call.
I wouldn't be surprised if we see light warjack swarms be a major thing. If you pick a caster with stuff that affects their entire battlegroup and give them a bunch of light warjacks with guns, those free single focus points will go a long way.
If we can believe the leaks, you could have Kara Sloan with like 11 Chargers or like 9 Hunters.
Yeah, it says "for the attack". I'm pretty sure the two shots count as separate attacks. So, if you want to do it for both shots, you'll need to give them a second focus. On the plus side, with the ROF changes they don't need a focus to actually get that second attack so the free focus plus one more is all you really need unless you want them to smack things in melee.
So, if you do the Charger swarm, you're not going to be able to fuel all of them every turn. So maybe not go full-blown swarm, but a smaller swarm of Chargers seems like a potentially efficient gun line.
Or go with Hunters. You can't have as many of them, but if you use Rangers or something to help with accuracy they probably are good with just relying on their free focus to boost damage. Fireflys have some potential too, since they would help each other's damage rolls.
Ah read it wrong. but it is still better - the additional shot used to cost a Focus also, now it's free. So, two Focus to fore two fully boosted shots, and it gets one of those for nothing, so one Focus from the Caster's when it was three in Mkii. if you don't want to boost anything, then it's just two shots for no Caster focus.
TheWaspinator wrote: Yeah, it says "for the attack". I'm pretty sure the two shots count as separate attacks. So, if you want to do it for both shots, you'll need to give them a second focus. On the plus side, with the ROF changes they don't need a focus to actually get that second attack so the free focus plus one more is all you really need unless you want them to smack things in melee.
So, if you do the Charger swarm, you're not going to be able to fuel all of them every turn. So maybe not go full-blown swarm, but a smaller swarm of Chargers seems like a potentially efficient gun line.
Or go with Hunters. You can't have as many of them, but if you use Rangers or something to help with accuracy they probably are good with just relying on their free focus to boost damage. Fireflys have some potential too, since they would help each other's damage rolls.
You can still do the nemo2 charger swarm, which was already a thing in mk2
malfred wrote: I'm saying that these rules are enough to warrant a new edition,
And a lot of the changes were made specifically to make it appear like there are enough changes to warrant a new edition. Again, like Mk2. For example deleting the Light Cavalry unit type and printing the rules it granted straight onto all the light cavalry unit cards, which is kinda the opposite of cleaning up the rules, but hey, it adds to the illusion of change.
powerfield changes
free focus to warjacks
dead warbeasts generating fury
pre-measuring
changes to entire spell lists and concepts
removal of fear psychology
removal of old style theme forces
application of new style theme forces
changing how mercs and minions build armies
removal of character restrictions because of rebalancing
monstrosities generating focus from damage
removal of skill repair checks
reduction in fury management options
change in terrain rules
vectors inducting all their focus
This is MARK 3 of a game. "Mark" stands for an edition with changes/improvements, not a completely new game. This isnt GW who just do stuff for the sake of doing stuff.
PP tries to actually find the flaws in their system and fix them.
This is MARK 3 of a game. "Mark" stands for an edition with changes/improvements, not a completely new game. This isnt GW who just do stuff for the sake of doing stuff.
PP tries to actually find the flaws in their system and fix them.
This is MARK 3 of a game. "Mark" stands for an edition with changes/improvements, not a completely new game. This isnt GW who just do stuff for the sake of doing stuff.
PP tries to actually find the flaws in their system and fix them.
And oppressively label their customer base as 'parasites.' You're right, this is not GW. Bur seriously I will be revisiting their rule set and giving it a shot. I dont know what to expect though, so many little changes....
RoninXiC wrote: They said that to costumers? Maybe you have a clouded memory. They said that to shops.
You honestly believe that wasn't aimed at both parties? That's an awful naive viewpoint. Accusing a store of being a parasite, especially when the stores in question were rather large, would implicate that the consumers of that store were also parasites, After all, a store can sell product at whatever prices it wants, but it can't force you to buy their product. The consumer has to decided they want the product at that price.
Therefore, if Privateer Press accuses online discounters of being parasites by making money off their product without a meaningful contribution to the hobby, then it is reasonable to assume Privateer Press also intends to label supporters of this practice, consumers not willing to support Privateer's hobby/business practices 100%, as parasites.
But to do so would be suicide. They would die in a storm of Bad PR and social media hate. SO instead, they target stores, which are widely established to be incapable of rebutting these accusations without damning themselves.
I've been saying since the MKIII announcement that PP is "cashing in." I'm not sure they're going full evil empire, but they're making a lot of decisions that will increase their bottom line.
That's not an entirely bad thing, but when people complain that they need to rebuy half their army to be competitive in the new edition, I feel like PP considers that a feature, not a bug!
And a meta shake up is a good thing. Games don't survive if everybody buys an army and plays the same exact thing for a decade. It's also more fun to see different units and casters. People that bought fairly narrow armies are the ones that get screwed the most. My obsessive need to own everything is finally paying off!
Polonius wrote: I've been saying since the MKIII announcement that PP is "cashing in." I'm not sure they're going full evil empire, but they're making a lot of decisions that will increase their bottom line.
That's not an entirely bad thing, but when people complain that they need to rebuy half their army to be competitive in the new edition, I feel like PP considers that a feature, not a bug!
And a meta shake up is a good thing. Games don't survive if everybody buys an army and plays the same exact thing for a decade. It's also more fun to see different units and casters. People that bought fairly narrow armies are the ones that get screwed the most. My obsessive need to own everything is finally paying off!
To be fair though, it's not like anyone's actually tested that, it's all speculation/worrying at this point. It might not turn out to be the case at all.
One thing this edition needs to fix that was wrong with MK2 was that all the stuff in the starter sets was sub par. If you got a WM 2 player starter and added in some jacks and solos and maybe another unit you thought were cool, the odds are you had a bad army.
It's possible that nerfing all the top tier stuff and buffing all the stuff that doesn't really see play will make the stuff in starters better, but it will definitely have the side effect of changing what items are popular for their game strength alone. If you played MK2 and bought a top tier tournament list, you'll probably find the stuff no longer stands out.
The real question is whether or not other stuff now stands out or if they actually got their points system to work a lot better than it did for MK2. If nothing stands out to the degree it did in MK2 then list building can be about synergy and your battle plan rather than just taking a subset of the best stuff and ignoring the rest.
The worst part about MK2 (and the part I think caused people to check the game out, play it a bit and then not bother with it any more) was the broken promise of the game being about warjacks. That's the biggest issue this needs to solve. And if they do solve it than existing players will certainly have to buy new stuff as warjacks will be going from generally bad to generally good.
That's not an entirely bad thing, but when people complain that they need to rebuy half their army to be competitive in the new edition, I feel like PP considers that a feature, not a bug!
Sure, people are complaining about that. Without seeing the new rule books, or playing a single game of the new edition. I can almost hear their Doom-Cycles reving up from her. You get this with EVERY release, because some folks can't leave their Doom-Cycle in the garage.
It's an army game, not a warjacks game. The battlegroup is
still central to many spells and abilities. However, the game
took off as it did because the game was fun with all its parts.
Less impactful now the cards have been leaked, but still a useful touchstone for people who don't know a faction inside out.
- Reiteration that Man-o-War's are intended ot be THE heavy infantry in the game, so they keep 8 hit boxes,but lost some DEF down to 10.
- Iron Flesh now boosts ARM not DEF, and now also prevents blast damage.
- Juggernaut chassis got a MAT boost to 7
- Destroyer's AOE increased to 4"
- Behemoth loses.... ah, I forget the name, the skill which allows it to shoot and melee in the same turn.
- Iron Fangs get a MAT boost to 7
- Winter Guard rocket attachment gets Brutal Damage
- Doom reavers lose Abomination (obviously) and a point of POW, but get Tough and are now FA:U
- The Old Witch (which model I shal own one day, oh yes) got an almost completely new spell list to reflect a more witchy, icy flavour, including one which turns every model she kills with her ranged attack into an Arc Node.
- All versions of Butcher get Tough
- The Old Witch (which model I shal own one day, oh yes) got an almost completely new spell list to reflect a more witchy, icy flavour, including one which turns every model she kills with her ranged attack into an Arc Node.
I don't think PP agrees with you. Both in the release of MK2 and now again in MK3 they've reiterated that the game is about warjacks (and warbeasts for hordes) and they are doing what they can to encourage them. Increased jack points and power up is hopefully enough.
It's not an "army" game at all. At most there's a platoon on the battle field. It's a warcaster and their jacks supported by some solos and infantry. The problem is that it's been the warcaster and their infantry and solos supported by a jack or two.
MattofWar wrote: One thing this edition needs to fix that was wrong with MK2 was that all the stuff in the starter sets was sub par. If you got a WM 2 player starter and added in some jacks and solos and maybe another unit you thought were cool, the odds are you had a bad army.
This is the biggest problem I have with Warmachine compared to other games. It's not that the stuff in the starters is at all bad, every element in them is perfectly usable, but just not as a package altogether. The game has advanced and mutated to become so much (TOO much!) about synergizing every element of your army. Originally you could have an army, take a different warcaster and it would completely change how your army played. You could buy a different unit or a different solo or a different warjack and that would also change how your army played. As problems arose, instead of using errata to remove problem combos, PP would release new units to answer the power builds, add new abilities to counter what was popular, add unit attachments and solos and warjacks and more units. Over time, as they released more and more and more units it got to the point where you were severely handicapping yourself if you didn't take the specific elements that worked best for your chosen warcaster.
The game that started as "change the caster to change the playstyle" became "change your entire army to match the caster's playstyle", even within the same faction. I was hoping MK3 would do more to address this, but it does not appear to be so, units/solos/jacks still appear far too specialized. hopefully Theme Lists not being bound to specific casters helps.
I don't think PP agrees with you. Both in the release of MK2 and now again in MK3 they've reiterated that the game is about warjacks (and warbeasts for hordes) and they are doing what they can to encourage them. Increased jack points and power up is hopefully enough.
It's not an "army" game at all. At most there's a platoon on the battle field. It's a warcaster and their jacks supported by some solos and infantry. The problem is that it's been the warcaster and their infantry and solos supported by a jack or two.
Which sucked. Hopefully MK3 will fix it.
In many cases, that one 'jack has been very dangerous and is not to be left alone if it can at all be helped.
The game has functioned really well as a battle game, and to make it so that every list is 90% warjack as some people would have it would be a mistake. What the game needed was fixes to warcasters and warlocks who relied completely on their battlegroup like Karchev. We'll see if counter-chargechev will hack it in mk3.
It doesn't need to go to 90%. It just needs to be more than the current state where many army lists are best when taking as few jacks as possible. I'd like to see it in the 50-70% range. Where the jacks represent the core of the force and the infantry and solos are support.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kalamadea wrote: Over time, as they released more and more and more units it got to the point where you were severely handicapping yourself if you didn't take the specific elements that worked best for your chosen warcaster.
I think there's something to this. While I am a fan of list synergy I really don't like how MK2 basically became hyper focused on it. It made perfectly good things you could take suck because there wasn't enough stuff to have synergy with them.
I actually think this "fix it with UAs or solos" is a terrible way to design and develop a game. If you mess up on a unit and it's too weak, instead of releasing a UA to power it up to where you think it should be, just be honest and errata the thing. I wish FFG would do this more with X-Wing as well. If you messed up and made something too weak or too strong, then just fix it rather than selling the fix as a new item to be purchased.
Might want to put pre-orders in with your local store, and ask them if they have orders in with distributors. I have confirmed earlier this week that supply was shockingly low at several distributors, got this today. Go make sure you have a battlebox or book reserverd for you at your store or you might be waiting a while.
Dear store owners, managers and staff,
As you have very likely learned, the June releases featuring the new editions of Warmachine and Hordes are now sold out at the manufacturer level. We received an overwhelming request for Launch Kits (PIP 21111, 21112, 21113) from our distributors, which we sold out of very quickly. In an attempt to meet the great demand for the new editions, we created two new Launch Kits (PIP 21114 and 21115) that were similar to the previous Launch Kits but contained less free items as those items were manufactured in limited supply. Even though we created almost twice as many new kits as our initial Launch Kit offerings, we again sold out of the new kits and had to allocate order quantities for each of our distributors in all territories. Despite our expectation that this production order would last us through the end of the year, adding the additional Launch Kits required most of our remaining product stock and as a result we are also sold out of each individual new edition item and all of our distributors received less product than they initially ordered. The only stock we have reserved is what we require for our upcoming Lock & Load Gamefest (where supplies will be limited) and our recruitment efforts over this summer’s conventions.
We had no expectation that we could be sold out before launch and in fact believed we had ordered enough inventory to keep us supplied for several months. After all, our hopes are to grow the audience for WARMACHINE and HORDES with the new editions, and that requires that we have the product to introduce new players to the game. It’s thrilling that demand has exceeded our wildest expectations but we do know that supply shortages are a problem when you have customers who want the product, and we must apologize for this very unforeseen inconvenience. We are working hard with our vendors to expedite restock orders and are hoping to have card decks back in stock in July, books back in stock in August, and Battleboxes following as quickly as possible after that.
Launching a new product, even a new edition of one that has a successful history behind it, is always a nail biting experience for a publisher because of the unpredictable reception the product may receive. With three years of development and countless hours in new sculpting, artwork, design and writing, we have made a massive investment in the new editions of WARMACHINE and HORDES, and in the future of Privateer Press. If we have proven one thing so far, it is that the community and awaiting audience for these games is thriving and excited and demand is greater than ever. We humbly ask for your patience while we overcome our current product shortage and please know that nothing will make us happier than to get these new editions into the hands of everyone who wants them. We hope that based on the response to our announcements and the clear demand that exists, that you can be confident that WARMACHINE and HORDES will be a significant and profitable component of your business for many years to come.
We shall endeavor to meet your every need as quickly as we possibly can and we thank you for your support.
Hopefully they'll be providing free copies to anybody who has a pre-order but misses out as GW does when they mess up the numbers for non limited stuff
This reeks. Privateer Press has always had supply problems, and has put a lot of businesses off because of it.
Now we see that again, nothing has changed it seems. Not gonna lie, this isn't a good sign for PP. If anything it shows how little experience/interest they have in 'growing' the brand.
Our store got pre-orders in, at this point I just hope there is nothing wrong with the kits themselves...
.Mikes. wrote: - Iron Flesh now boosts ARM not DEF, and now also prevents blast damage.
That's good, I always hated that a spell named that boosted DEF instead of ARM
The immunity to blast damage might be a concern for one of my lists that's relying on a lot of blasts to remove infantry, will have to see how prevalent this spell is now (Barnabas lost it on the Gator side, at least).
Rather disconcerting about the stock issues. I was already borderline on starting the game(s) due to a number of factors, but if this is true then I'm definitely going to pass.
.Mikes. wrote: - Iron Flesh now boosts ARM not DEF, and now also prevents blast damage.
That's good, I always hated that a spell named that boosted DEF instead of ARM
The immunity to blast damage might be a concern for one of my lists that's relying on a lot of blasts to remove infantry, will have to see how prevalent this spell is now (Barnabas lost it on the Gator side, at least).
After reading the Khador bolg, this strikes me that PP is doing the same exact things GW is doing with an edition change. This doesn't appear just to be tightening up the rules, but changing the balance of the units as well. Only difference seems to be that PP is exposing why they are making changes instead of GW's "drop from on high and deal with it" method.
If that is the case, can't say I approve, and will keep playing with my Mk II rules and cards.
Stormonu wrote: After reading the Khador bolg, this strikes me that PP is doing the same exact things GW is doing with an edition change. This doesn't appear just to be tightening up the rules, but changing the balance of the units as well. Only difference seems to be that PP is exposing why they are making changes instead of GW's "drop from on high and deal with it" method.
If that is the case, can't say I approve, and will keep playing with my Mk II rules and cards.
That's....that's kinda what happens when a game changes editions. The whole of the game is evaluated and rewrought into something better than last time.
But yeaah, have fun trying to find a game using old stuff. That never goes over well.
There are people who play older editions of games. It's just
harder to do. They advantage they have is that they could
really just solidify the gameplay down to certain models and
never have to worry about metas changing.
.Mikes. wrote: - Iron Flesh now boosts ARM not DEF, and now also prevents blast damage.
That's good, I always hated that a spell named that boosted DEF instead of ARM
The immunity to blast damage might be a concern for one of my lists that's relying on a lot of blasts to remove infantry, will have to see how prevalent this spell is now (Barnabas lost it on the Gator side, at least).
My understanding is that "blast damage" refers only the damage from the AOE, not damage against a model directly hit, if any. It's not a huge consolation, but it doesn't make AOEs completely worthless against blast immune.
My understanding is that "blast damage" refers only the damage from the AOE, not damage against a model directly hit, if any. It's not a huge consolation, but it doesn't make AOEs completely worthless against blast immune.
That's what blast damage has always referred to. Iron Flesh granting immunity to blast damage is kind of cool, because it means that instead of losing 4-5 guys under the blast template, you only lose the dude directly underneath it(who'd usually be dead anyways, since most AOE's are high enough POW to kill basic infantry with a damage roll).
Stormonu wrote: After reading the Khador bolg, this strikes me that PP is doing the same exact things GW is doing with an edition change. This doesn't appear just to be tightening up the rules, but changing the balance of the units as well. Only difference seems to be that PP is exposing why they are making changes instead of GW's "drop from on high and deal with it" method.
If that is the case, can't say I approve, and will keep playing with my Mk II rules and cards.
There is another difference. When the rules are improved by PP it is a deliberate decision as a opposed to GW where is is a happy accident.
Neronoxx wrote:This reeks. Privateer Press has always had supply problems, and has put a lot of businesses off because of it.
Now we see that again, nothing has changed it seems. Not gonna lie, this isn't a good sign for PP. If anything it shows how little experience/interest they have in 'growing' the brand.
Our store got pre-orders in, at this point I just hope there is nothing wrong with the kits themselves...
So when low stock occurred to X-Wing, did we take that as a bad sign for Fantasy Flight Games? Why would PP have little interest in growing the game? People are excited. I know people who pre-ordered one of every new faction starter. Old players, current players, and new players are buying in whole hog, how do you gauge that accurately?
BigDaddio wrote:Rather disconcerting about the stock issues. I was already borderline on starting the game(s) due to a number of factors, but if this is true then I'm definitely going to pass.
So because it's overwhelmingly popular, you're going to pass entirely? Seems logical.
Stormonu wrote:After reading the Khador bolg, this strikes me that PP is doing the same exact things GW is doing with an edition change. This doesn't appear just to be tightening up the rules, but changing the balance of the units as well. Only difference seems to be that PP is exposing why they are making changes instead of GW's "drop from on high and deal with it" method.
If that is the case, can't say I approve, and will keep playing with my Mk II rules and cards.
Isn't... isn't that what you want with a new edition? I can say, quite honestly, that these are some of the most baffling takes on the new edition and sales I've seen.
"Professor, without knowing precisely if there is even to be a problem, would you say it's time for our viewers to call the end of this game, crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?"
.Mikes. wrote: "Professor, without knowing precisely if there is even to be a problem, would you say it's time for our viewers to call the end of this game, crack each other's heads open and feast on the goo inside?"
"Yes I would, Kent."
Exalted.
Side Note: If you like the lore at all, read Blood of Kings. It is excellent and closes a lot of Cygnar loose ends.
BigDaddio wrote:Rather disconcerting about the stock issues. I was already borderline on starting the game(s) due to a number of factors, but if this is true then I'm definitely going to pass.
So because it's overwhelmingly popular, you're going to pass entirely? Seems logical.
What would have been more logical would have been to ask me what those other factors are before making your assumption. Just saying.
The thing is, my interest was already borderline because IMO the models are generally poor quality for the price being charged, the game has a large learning curve (too busy to devote the time needed to learn ALL those potential opposing models), and all the battle reports I have seen look very drab (terrain-wise) which puts me off. But a part of me is still intrigued by the game system, and quite possibly I am vulnerable to the "shiny syndrome" impulse buy to which many of us seem to fall prone. But I cannot impulsively buy what isn't available, can I? The possible stock problem is just one more mark against what I (meaning just me, and no one else has to agree or even understand for all I care) am looking for.
The thing is, my interest was already borderline because IMO the models are generally poor quality for the price being charged, the game has a large learning curve (too busy to devote the time needed to learn ALL those potential opposing models), and all the battle reports I have seen look very drab (terrain-wise) which puts me off. But a part of me is still intrigued by the game system, and quite possibly I am vulnerable to the "shiny syndrome" impulse buy to which many of us seem to fall prone. But I cannot impulsively buy what isn't available, can I? The possible stock problem is just one more mark against what I (meaning just me, and no one else has to agree or even understand for all I care) am looking for.
For what it's worth, there's going to be a lot more terrain on the tables MKIII coming. About 6-7, in the middle of the map.
The learning curve ascend very slowly at first, if you concentrate on Warcaster & Battlegroup. Enough that I can easily explain it to my boardgamer friends without turning them off like most wargames do. For reference, this is a group that would never even consider playing Mordheim.
And you don't need to know what every units in the game does, not even at some competitive level. Clocked events are putting you at a disadvantage, but not all tourneys are clocked.
BigDaddio wrote:Rather disconcerting about the stock issues. I was already borderline on starting the game(s) due to a number of factors, but if this is true then I'm definitely going to pass.
So because it's overwhelmingly popular, you're going to pass entirely? Seems logical.
What would have been more logical would have been to ask me what those other factors are before making your assumption. Just saying.
The thing is, my interest was already borderline because IMO the models are generally poor quality for the price being charged, the game has a large learning curve (too busy to devote the time needed to learn ALL those potential opposing models), and all the battle reports I have seen look very drab (terrain-wise) which puts me off. But a part of me is still intrigued by the game system, and quite possibly I am vulnerable to the "shiny syndrome" impulse buy to which many of us seem to fall prone. But I cannot impulsively buy what isn't available, can I? The possible stock problem is just one more mark against what I (meaning just me, and no one else has to agree or even understand for all I care) am looking for.
I didn't assume anything. I know you had other reasons. You said that, in the post I quoted. My point was, how does something being sold out for a month or so 'break the camel's back' and put you off a game? I know well of 'new shiny syndrome', it doesn't typically fade that fast.
It really seemed like you were looking for a reason to not pick up the game, rather than being disappointed in stock issues. Which is fine, lord knows I do that a lot to avoid spending money I shouldn't be. But say that, rather than throwing shade at a 'disconcerting' stock issue that is entirely based on popularity, not company created scarcity.
BigDaddio wrote:Rather disconcerting about the stock issues. I was already borderline on starting the game(s) due to a number of factors, but if this is true then I'm definitely going to pass.
It really seemed like you were looking for a reason to not pick up the game, rather than being disappointed in stock issues. Which is fine, lord knows I do that a lot to avoid spending money I shouldn't be. But say that, rather than throwing shade at a 'disconcerting' stock issue that is entirely based on popularity, not company created scarcity.
How confident are you that the stock issue is based on popularity? Do you really believe that it's just because they're "so popular and sold so many more kits than we expected, like OMG."
Because it's not. No company banking on a new edition to bring new players into a game runs out of stock less than a full month after their announcement. Especially not a company that supposedly meticulously gathered information from every tournament over the last 5 years....
They do this all of the time, with every release it seems.
gunslingerpro wrote:
So when low stock occurred to X-Wing, did we take that as a bad sign for Fantasy Flight Games? Why would PP have little interest in growing the game? People are excited. I know people who pre-ordered one of every new faction starter. Old players, current players, and new players are buying in whole hog, how do you gauge that accurately?
Privateer Press's biggest fans have always been a tad bit on the zealous side, as most fans can be sometimes. Your anecdotal 'evidence' doesn't sway what is a widely held opinion by us 'less faithful.' It doesn't surprise me to hear that, but it doesn't change the fact that Privateer press has a history of being unable to supply their entire line to retailers with any real amount of consistency (which is 90% of carrying miniatures games. if you don't have 100% of the line, you will lose 90% of your walk in sales. Gamers aren't patient people. I can not stress enough how important this is for stores.)
Also comparing X-wing to Warmahordes feels like a bad comparison. X-wing only ran out of stock badly on a few ships at a time, not an entire line of products. The business model is also pretty different. The only release I can remember having stock issues on was the T-70 X-wings. And everyone knew that was gonna happen.
No, X-wing's biggest issue was the wait times for new releases. But they always had enough product for their release.
Take a step back, and you might find a company running out of their newest line of products and launch kits a tad bit strange. I can't help but feel this is directly related to their recent decision to axe online 'parasites.'
Stormonu wrote:After reading the Khador bolg, this strikes me that PP is doing the same exact things GW is doing with an edition change. This doesn't appear just to be tightening up the rules, but changing the balance of the units as well. Only difference seems to be that PP is exposing why they are making changes instead of GW's "drop from on high and deal with it" method.
If that is the case, can't say I approve, and will keep playing with my Mk II rules and cards.
Isn't... isn't that what you want with a new edition? I can say, quite honestly, that these are some of the most baffling takes on the new edition and sales I've seen.
Obviously, it's not what I want. GW's "change the rules for no obvious reason, rebalance everything so your old army stinks" and "those rules/units don't work that way any more" drives me nuts, and from that blog, I'm seeing the same thing here. If anything I would have wished for streamlining some wording, incorporating errata and maybe condense some of the books. In other words, not a new edition, but a new iteration of the existing rulebooks.
Nothing is perfect and this mk2 wasn't perfect. Mk3 is an attempt to get the flaws out of the system and thus some things have to be tweaked, rebalanced, rewritten and or removed.
I really cannot see a single thing wrong with that.
You might be liked mk2 exactly the way it was, but most people saw the problems. It still was a great System and it will probably improve on its strengths and will get rid of its flaws..
BigDaddio wrote:Rather disconcerting about the stock issues. I was already borderline on starting the game(s) due to a number of factors, but if this is true then I'm definitely going to pass.
It really seemed like you were looking for a reason to not pick up the game, rather than being disappointed in stock issues. Which is fine, lord knows I do that a lot to avoid spending money I shouldn't be. But say that, rather than throwing shade at a 'disconcerting' stock issue that is entirely based on popularity, not company created scarcity.
How confident are you that the stock issue is based on popularity? Do you really believe that it's just because they're "so popular and sold so many more kits than we expected, like OMG."
Because it's not. No company banking on a new edition to bring new players into a game runs out of stock less than a full month after their announcement. Especially not a company that supposedly meticulously gathered information from every tournament over the last 5 years....
They do this all of the time, with every release it seems.
So for what logical reason could PP be under producing their products, in this grand scheme of yours? These are the 'super limited' releases you're used to with 40k. These are STARTER products and Core rule books. For what genuine, reasonable purpose would they be doing this?
Spoiler:
gunslingerpro wrote:
So when low stock occurred to X-Wing, did we take that as a bad sign for Fantasy Flight Games? Why would PP have little interest in growing the game? People are excited. I know people who pre-ordered one of every new faction starter. Old players, current players, and new players are buying in whole hog, how do you gauge that accurately?
Privateer Press's biggest fans have always been a tad bit on the zealous side, as most fans can be sometimes. Your anecdotal 'evidence' doesn't sway what is a widely held opinion by us 'less faithful.' It doesn't surprise me to hear that, but it doesn't change the fact that Privateer press has a history of being unable to supply their entire line to retailers with any real amount of consistency (which is 90% of carrying miniatures games. if you don't have 100% of the line, you will lose 90% of your walk in sales. Gamers aren't patient people. I can not stress enough how important this is for stores.)
Also comparing X-wing to Warmahordes feels like a bad comparison. X-wing only ran out of stock badly on a few ships at a time, not an entire line of products. The business model is also pretty different. The only release I can remember having stock issues on was the T-70 X-wings. And everyone knew that was gonna happen.
No, X-wing's biggest issue was the wait times for new releases. But they always had enough product for their release.
Take a step back, and you might find a company running out of their newest line of products and launch kits a tad bit strange. I can't help but feel this is directly related to their recent decision to axe online 'parasites.'
Ignoring the apparent 'you're a fanboi, my side is the normal side' swipe, what is the point you are making again? That PP is purposefully drumming up scarcity on STARTER and CORE products? Again, how does this make a lick of sense? Especially considering the last massive bump in popularity followed a 40k edition change. Sales ebb and flow with everything from edition changes to what other game has a new release, no one can project popularity with 100% accuracy when planning production out months to years in advance.
I think the X-Wing comparison is apt, because when it first dropped, there was almost certainly some difficulty securing starter sets and Wave 1 expansions for new players, at least on the gaming store side of it. But your point more seems to be that PP is somehow creating scarcity to damage online parasites? You mean the same distributors that are getting limited allotment like everyone else? If MiniatureMarket or the like suddenly got no stock, you may have a point. But aren't we jumping to conclusions a little early here, and without any real information?
Stormonu wrote:After reading the Khador bolg, this strikes me that PP is doing the same exact things GW is doing with an edition change. This doesn't appear just to be tightening up the rules, but changing the balance of the units as well. Only difference seems to be that PP is exposing why they are making changes instead of GW's "drop from on high and deal with it" method.
If that is the case, can't say I approve, and will keep playing with my Mk II rules and cards.
Isn't... isn't that what you want with a new edition? I can say, quite honestly, that these are some of the most baffling takes on the new edition and sales I've seen.
Obviously, it's not what I want. GW's "change the rules for no obvious reason, rebalance everything so your old army stinks" and "those rules/units don't work that way any more" drives me nuts, and from that blog, I'm seeing the same thing here. If anything I would have wished for streamlining some wording, incorporating errata and maybe condense some of the books. In other words, not a new edition, but a new iteration of the existing rulebooks.
One of the largest complaints was that a lot of models in the game were subpar in comparison to other options in faction/mercenaries. So they aren't rebalancing for no reason. Also, the purpose of the rebalance is to give units a niche, a purpose and flavor no other unit can match and exceed. This isn't 'Guard Parking Lot is not longer good, go buy monsterous creatures'. This is 'nothing is auto-include or auto-win, see what you like/what works for you'. I think old GW scars are giving you a bit of trepidation, though it is unwarranted.
One of the largest complaints was that a lot of models in the game were subpar in comparison to other options in faction/mercenaries. So they aren't rebalancing for no reason. Also, the purpose of the rebalance is to give units a niche, a purpose and flavor no other unit can match and exceed.
That was allegedly the point of Mk2 as well and it obviously failed if they're doing it again, focusing again on mostly the same problematic models (or rather, again not focusing on the problematic models), and it's obvious at first glance to anyone with some perspective that they failed again.
gunslingerpro wrote: This isn't 'Guard Parking Lot is not longer good, go buy monsterous creatures'.
It's more like 'Guard Parking Lot and monstrous creatures have had their battlefield roles swapped, so go buy the other one if you want to continue using the same playstyle', very broadly speaking.
One of the largest complaints was that a lot of models in the game were subpar in comparison to other options in faction/mercenaries. So they aren't rebalancing for no reason. Also, the purpose of the rebalance is to give units a niche, a purpose and flavor no other unit can match and exceed.
That was allegedly the point of Mk2 as well and it obviously failed if they're doing it again, focusing again on mostly the same problematic models (or rather, again not focusing on the problematic models), and it's obvious at first glance to anyone with some perspective that they failed again.
gunslingerpro wrote: This isn't 'Guard Parking Lot is not longer good, go buy monsterous creatures'.
It's more like 'Guard Parking Lot and monstrous creatures have had their battlefield roles swapped, so go buy the other one if you want to continue using the same playstyle', very broadly speaking.
What are these specific examples of roles sawpping entirely? Because for now, we're theorizing with limited leaks, potentially beta cards, and no full rule book.
Bad form gunslingerpro, bad form.
That was a poor shot at putting words in my mouth, or you just can't read. For your own sake, I hope you are just being petty, as I never implied that PP sabotaged their own product just that they didn't make as many kits as were needed.
Since you got took offense and a side about my remark pertaining to fans, I realize you are not going to listen to any amount of reason or evidence. Which is sad, so I'll just say this for other readers.
If a company has a big new game, they should not run out of stock before the game is released. Thats poor form.
The excuse that the game was more popular than expected is likely bull-gak. Companies can plan for this, contrary to what gunslingerpro said, and privateer press knew these kits would be popular. Otherwise, why release them? So they had an idea of how these kits would sell.
And still ran out. I can guarantee plenty of stores are not going to see their orders and will not be able to place orders. Their only hope is Privateer Press does a reprint soon, but those are always iffy.
That coupled with their designer blogs gives a very strong telling of the identity behind the change.
"We won't invalidate your models, but we will invalidate your armies playstyles. Buy new stuff."
Same old Privateer Press.
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HoverBoy wrote: Watching the fanbases of different games interact is truly magnificent.
The funny part is how I make an extremely general statement, and they take offense to it. The key thing to remember is that being offended is a choice.
One of the largest complaints was that a lot of models in the game were subpar in comparison to other options in faction/mercenaries. So they aren't rebalancing for no reason. Also, the purpose of the rebalance is to give units a niche, a purpose and flavor no other unit can match and exceed.
That was allegedly the point of Mk2 as well and it obviously failed if they're doing it again, focusing again on mostly the same problematic models (or rather, again not focusing on the problematic models), and it's obvious at first glance to anyone with some perspective that they failed again.
gunslingerpro wrote: This isn't 'Guard Parking Lot is not longer good, go buy monsterous creatures'.
It's more like 'Guard Parking Lot and monstrous creatures have had their battlefield roles swapped, so go buy the other one if you want to continue using the same playstyle', very broadly speaking.
What are these specific examples of roles sawpping entirely? Because for now, we're theorizing with limited leaks, potentially beta cards, and no full rule book.
I see you haven't read any of the designer blogs. Impressive. The last time I saw someone so in the dark there was a new star wars movie coming out.
In regards to the product shortages, PP put out some info about it. Seems they honestly thought that the amount of product they ordered would last most of the year, and are surprised by the quantity of orders they're getting.
PP wrote:Hello, everyone.
We wanted to address some misinformation that has come to our attention. There has been some discussion across various platforms that Privateer Press has chosen to treat the EU market as inferior to the US market. We want to make it clear that this has never been the case, and that we value our international players as much as those in the US. Because of the unexpected and overwhelming demand, all distributors, and thus all markets, were allocated product that corresponds to the June releases. Simply put, and to our amazement, we are completely sold out of all products before we have even launched. While we anticipated increased demand for WARMACHINE and HORDES products with the release of the new edition, the response has been astronomical.
Although the launch kits were for the US market only, we did send launch kits to the EU based on distributor orders. We also added two new kits that almost doubled the quantity of kits we had to allocate. Unfortunately, even with five kit offerings we were still a little short and had to remove some kits from all US and EU distributor orders. Consequentially, with the addition of the two new kits, there was very little individual product left (i.e. product that did not go in to making the kits), especially for HORDES.
We also have two fantastic partners, Ulisses Spiel in Germany, and Victoria Games, in France, who have translated and produced additional launch product for their markets and ensuring that we can bring WARMACHINE and HORDES to even more players in the EU on day one.
We did not imagine the possibility that we could be sold out before launch and expected our initial orders would ensure availability until about the end of the year, giving us enough time to re-order and resupply before we ran out. We apologize in advance for any inconvenience this places on our retailers or players. Please know that we are working as quickly as possible to get resupplied by our vendors and will do everything we can to meet demand in every country WARMACHINE and HORDES are played.
Thank you for your excitement and your continued support.
Bad form gunslingerpro, bad form.
That was a poor shot at putting words in my mouth, or you just can't read. For your own sake, I hope you are just being petty, as I never implied that PP sabotaged their own product just that they didn't make as many kits as were needed.
Since you got took offense and a side about my remark pertaining to fans, I realize you are not going to listen to any amount of reason or evidence. Which is sad, so I'll just say this for other readers.
Ok, if we're going to talk reason and evidence, the evidence of your posting history is that you post almost exclusively in 40K sub forums and on GW related threads. If one clicks "filter thread" in this Privateer Press related topic, one can see that your contributions are essentially exclusively negative, almost aggressively so.
Therefore, it seems reasonable to suggest that you're posting here to further some sort of agenda? Even if that agenda is no more complex than "I don't like Warmachine and I'm going to take any opportunity I can to bad mouth it."
This doesn't seem especially reasonable behaviour. I'd imagine just getting on discussing the topics relevant to what you're interested in and leaving the topics that you don't would be the way forward?
Or do you have a heavy investment in PP, and consequently you're the mirror of the people in the GW threads who are frustrated because they feel the company's actions are actually detrimental to their enjoyment of the product? In which case, please enlighten us, as, like many other people, I'm using the new edition as a stepping stone to starting the game, and a reasoned critique of the downsides of playing a PP game would be most informative (as opposed to an angry, unsubstantiated rant, which would be neither useful nor in topic.)
As for your criticisms of them selling out, and how easy it is for companies to anticipate this? I could explain how anything manufactured by contractors can often need to be planned months in advance to fit in with their other jobs. I could explain how any number of sales forecasts will crumble in the face of unprecedented demand, but I'm going to use just 4 (well, 3.5) words, which I'm sure is just one example, but it's the best example I can recall - Tau 6th Editon Update.
May I? I was the guy who pretty much quit GW for PP. A few years later, I realized they're the same . Yes, Warmachine is objectively the better ruleset, not that that's a high bar to reach. PP company policy is pretty much following Kirby style late-2000s GW: gaking on customers, gaking on retailers, changing rules to drive sales, axing a "specialist game" overnight without so much as a word or explanation to the fanbase, sometimes making models more expensive when switching to a cheaper material, draconian policy on conversions, scratch-builds and 3rd-party models, etc. All the while being defended to the death by their "born again" type followers.
Bad form gunslingerpro, bad form.
That was a poor shot at putting words in my mouth, or you just can't read. For your own sake, I hope you are just being petty, as I never implied that PP sabotaged their own product just that they didn't make as many kits as were needed.
Since you got took offense and a side about my remark pertaining to fans, I realize you are not going to listen to any amount of reason or evidence. Which is sad, so I'll just say this for other readers.
Ok, if we're going to talk reason and evidence, the evidence of your posting history is that you post almost exclusively in 40K sub forums and on GW related threads. If one clicks "filter thread" in this Privateer Press related topic, one can see that your contributions are essentially exclusively negative, almost aggressively so.
Therefore, it seems reasonable to suggest that you're posting here to further some sort of agenda? Even if that agenda is no more complex than "I don't like Warmachine and I'm going to take any opportunity I can to bad mouth it."
This doesn't seem especially reasonable behaviour. I'd imagine just getting on discussing the topics relevant to what you're interested in and leaving the topics that you don't would be the way forward?
Or do you have a heavy investment in PP, and consequently you're the mirror of the people in the GW threads who are frustrated because they feel the company's actions are actually detrimental to their enjoyment of the product? In which case, please enlighten us, as, like many other people, I'm using the new edition as a stepping stone to starting the game, and a reasoned critique of the downsides of playing a PP game would be most informative (as opposed to an angry, unsubstantiated rant, which would be neither useful nor in topic.)
As for your criticisms of them selling out, and how easy it is for companies to anticipate this? I could explain how anything manufactured by contractors can often need to be planned months in advance to fit in with their other jobs. I could explain how any number of sales forecasts will crumble in the face of unprecedented demand, but I'm going to use just 4 (well, 3.5) words, which I'm sure is just one example, but it's the best example I can recall - Tau 6th Editon Update.
The tau 6th edition update sold out a week after release, but only the codex experienced supply shortages. And even then, they had more books in a week. Games Workshop made enough, they simply didn't allocate correctly (which admittedly they are known for goofing up on.)
But regardless, Blackfang actually explains my motives better than I believe I could.
One of the largest complaints was that a lot of models in the game were subpar in comparison to other options in faction/mercenaries. So they aren't rebalancing for no reason. Also, the purpose of the rebalance is to give units a niche, a purpose and flavor no other unit can match and exceed.
That was allegedly the point of Mk2 as well and it obviously failed if they're doing it again, focusing again on mostly the same problematic models (or rather, again not focusing on the problematic models), and it's obvious at first glance to anyone with some perspective that they failed again.
+1. Yeah, I'm really skeptical of their rebalancing looking more like shuffling that a great fine tuning. Having seen a few edition shifts and playtests (closed and open), it seems like testers and designers tend to fixate on things they think are problems which results in only the previous or predicted outliers on both extremes getting tuned thoroughly (or even overcompensated for) and everything else coasting through and some of those becoming the new problems, and it seems PP's next edition is falling into that trap. Right there with you.
(Same goes for your experience/realization about jumping on to the PP line. The combination of GW and then PP has made me wary of any new system/company I get involved with and think is great, so I've been generally much more conservative about buying since.)
lord_blackfang wrote: May I? I was the guy who pretty much quit GW for PP. A few years later, I realized they're the same . Yes, Warmachine is objectively the better ruleset, not that that's a high bar to reach. PP company policy is pretty much following Kirby style late-2000s GW: gaking on customers, gaking on retailers, changing rules to drive sales, axing a "specialist game" overnight without so much as a word or explanation to the fanbase, sometimes making models more expensive when switching to a cheaper material, draconian policy on conversions, scratch-builds and 3rd-party models, etc. All the while being defended to the death by their "born again" type followers.
I honestly want to like Privateer Press. Warmachine was my first War game, and I love the setting.
But at the end of the day, Privateer Press are freaking [MOD EDIT - Please find a different way to express yourself - Alpharius] when it comes to business. They have only gotten as far as they have based on Games Workshops disillusioned fanbase.
We called Privateer Press once, way back when we were trying to support their dying community here. We wanted to be able to buy directly from them. You know, give them all of the money, cutting out the middle man and getting product faster. Like a lot of Businesses do.
They flat out refused. Again and again. Why? Because we were a store, not a distributor.
What kind of brain dead monkey in a suit refuses a banna offered to it? So here we go 3 years later with mk3 and how it's going to be streamlined and fix all the mk 2 problems and -
Nope, rework everything game plays the same. Why did we demolosh playstyles, ruin armies, completely rework several Warcasters and label it as a good thing?
Because they don't care. It's honestly how I feel. Nothing you can say will change that, not because I'm stubborn, but because at this point I need to see the change from Privateer Press. And just when I though I could start liking it again, they pull this stuff.
ON TOPIC - I am going to patiently wait and see how this unfolds. Their message concerning the 'stock lasting until the end of the year' is extremely telling of just how little they made. Perhaps they just made enough for a 'test batch.' Then they can say, hey our game is popular, look how well it's doing! And make more. But that's only assuming they see mk3 as potential risk. Which given 40k releases and how many players quit with every release versus new players gett
get in, would make sense.
More likely I believe they simply couldn't afford to produce all of the kits needed to satisfy demand. They are a small company after all.
I was going to list some of the major removal of playstyle options, but I only got as far as the first card in my faction before giving up in disgust: poor old Baldur1. The guy whose entire shtick is that he can teleport from forest to forest. Well, bad news, buddy, the faction as a whole lost any forest generation that could be useful to you, and the last-resort workaround to getting you into a forest, the Push power attack, was removed from the game entirely. What do you do now, Baldur? Nothing. You do nothing.
I think the new edition looks amazing so far. My planned battle boar spam is less effective, but in turn tons of other things I'd never considered pairing are awesome!
But I'm a minions player, and our minds are still blown about being able to run the two pacts together (and getting access to minions we couldn't field before).
lord_blackfang wrote: I was going to list some of the major removal of playstyle options, but I only got as far as the first card in my faction before giving up in disgust: poor old Baldur1. The guy whose entire shtick is that he can teleport from forest to forest. Well, bad news, buddy, the faction as a whole lost any forest generation that could be useful to you, and the last-resort workaround to getting you into a forest, the Push power attack, was removed from the game entirely. What do you do now, Baldur? Nothing. You do nothing.
I didn't even know about that. Thats messed up. One of my good friends held on to all his circle stuff out of love for the setting. I kinda wondered if he might try and play again, but Baldur was his favorite warlock.
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RiTides wrote: I think the new edition looks amazing so far. My planned battle boar spam is less effective, but in turn tons of other things I'd never considered pairing are awesome!
But I'm a minions player, and our minds are still blown about being able to run the two pacts together (and getting access to minions we couldn't field before).
Yeah, minions and mercs definitely seem like they got the biggest sticks this time around. Which was one of the things I liked.
RiTides wrote: Wehrkind is a Circle player and likes the changes so far from what I can tell - I'll have to point him to this thread!
That sounds suspiciously open-minded. What you should be doing is foaming at the mouth about how things are OMGBROKEN or OMGUSELESS based on leaks of unknown date in the playtest cycle from a dodgy Russian torrent site. Remember that you should on no account wait two weeks for the final rules or actually try the rules out before freaking out.
If the changes change everything all at once, then all relative
power levels change. Some of the gross infantry models are
being reduced, stuff like Mulg, but it's the entire environment
is changing. It's not like I have to play new style Fennblades into
old style op Bane Thralls. I'm sad about many of the power
downs (Mulg) but one thing still puzzles me.
I think I heard Fire Eaters are mostly the same???
It really looks like the power level of everything is pretty reduced. With the exception of jacks, which are largely the same, but cheaper and more efficient.
As for destroying playstyles, I'm pretty much onboard even though it hurts. The changes to recursion kinda suck for cryx, especially since our units are designed to be used with debuffs and terrible (but reusable) stats. But it destroys the outliers where you steamroll a game because you models you just brought back not only killed the stuff capable of blending infantry, but possibly adding more corpses/souls to further your advantage.
I kinda enjoy reading people complaining about the gaspy2 changes. Mainly because their complaint is that while he still does the same thing as before, it's all not as effective. He literally had game into most any matchup due to his abilities, and could easily trounce unwary/inexperienced players. Now he's a decent caster who can be used without warping the game.
So yeah, some changes invalidated signature playstyles, but I think that the changes are better for the game.
From what little I've seen so far, I'm cautiously optimistic and looking forward to the new edition, even if I do have to buy new faction decks/Warroom stuff. I'm liking that there seems to be a bigger emphasis on warjacks/beasts, and that the "infantry spam" seems lessened to some extent. How everything will play out remains to be seen, since we obviously haven't seen the full rules yet, just the spoiled cards.
I'm a little upset at the product shortage, but if it comes down to it, I'll grab my Khador deck through War Room, and buy the physical cards when they're available again.
I don't think that Mk3 is intended as a "cash grab". Wh40k 7th edition was a cash grab, coming just two years after 6th. Supposedly Mk3 has been in development for three years now, and Mk2 is now what, 6 years old? That's edition change I can get behind, especially since the rules will be free online and I don't have to buy a $75 rulebook plus $50 codex to use my army.
RiTides wrote: Wehrkind is a Circle player and likes the changes so far
Same here. Male Tharn units got a nice boost, Skinwalkers became tough as nuts, Ferals look to have retaken their place as *the* armour crackers, LoTF got a needed points reduction. The only thin I'm puzzle about is the nerf to the Satyrs. They got a decent points reduction too, but it's not like they were OP to begin with. But hey hoy, I still like the models, so I'll still use them.
lord_blackfang wrote: I was going to list some of the major removal of playstyle options, but I only got as far as the first card in my faction before giving up in disgust: poor old Baldur1. The guy whose entire shtick is that he can teleport from forest to forest. Well, bad news, buddy, the faction as a whole lost any forest generation that could be useful to you, and the last-resort workaround to getting you into a forest, the Push power attack, was removed from the game entirely. What do you do now, Baldur? Nothing. You do nothing.
You do realize that mandating 6-7 pieces of terrain in the middle of the board is going to take care of that problem, right?
The Doom and Gloom cycle has never cycled so strong.
lord_blackfang wrote: I was going to list some of the major removal of playstyle options, but I only got as far as the first card in my faction before giving up in disgust: poor old Baldur1. The guy whose entire shtick is that he can teleport from forest to forest. Well, bad news, buddy, the faction as a whole lost any forest generation that could be useful to you, and the last-resort workaround to getting you into a forest, the Push power attack, was removed from the game entirely. What do you do now, Baldur? Nothing. You do nothing.
You do realize that mandating 6-7 pieces of terrain in the middle of the board is going to take care of that problem, right?
The Doom and Gloom cycle has never cycled so strong.
You do realize that taking control away from players and 'mandating we play with forests' wasn't a good design choice and shouldn't be defended, right?
I've been pretty skeptical about PP's moves, but I'd actually say that there's nothing wrong with a game specifying the amount of terrain it's optimally played with. I mean, what's so different between that and saying what point size works best?
Yeah, when there are different abilities that interact with terrain in different ways (Eyeless Sight, for one), the amount and type of terrain has huge balance implications. Setting a baseline as to how much should be expected in tournaments is important for that reason.
Baldur1 got better in a lot of subtle ways I think. Forest walk being tougher is irksome, and sort of confusing, although the various Fertilizer guns can help a little. Otherwise though, Stone Skin no longer prevents charges, so that's nice. A CTRL area spell that stops all the new AOEs, with or without High Explosive, is very nice for keeping stuff alive. There is a bit less Pathfinder and stuff that ignores Cover, so the feat is a bit nicer. Earth Spikes is the exception that ignores everything, including the new cover, so that's handy esp with a caster better at taking Geomancers. Sadly, Woldwardens/Megs can't put Stone Skin on themselves (grumble) but they do charge for free still with 3 Fury, which is actually not really below average anymore, which feels strange.
Compared to where Baldur1 was in Mk2, I think he has actually become pretty good. Forest walking was always a Sword of Damocles when you got down to it, all threat and no real use other than against new people. Sucks to make the threat that much more difficult, but if there is more terrain these days, or a Wold Theme allows bringing some of your own, he should have something to sit in before popping out his own wood. Woods. His own woods.
For the record, I am not quite so sanguine about Mohsar, who didn't really get better near as I can tell, other than Crevasse being easier to aim from the initial target, and maybe Geomancers being a little better (although at lower Magic Ability). The Kaya's I am not 100% impressed with either, but then I never really clicked with them so there might be some awesome tech there I am not seeing.
Grayle, pMorv, Baldur1/2 (oh my god armor stacking, even on Woldwrath), the Kromacs, and Krueger1 I think all come out better by a fair bit. Wurmwood, eMorv and Krueger2 seem to be at least about as good as they were, but different. Wurmwood really looks kind of fantastic, but Cassius and him were already so good it is hard to tell if it is really a ton better yet; getting Cass killed and not being able to move outside of stones is exactly the sort of crap I can see myself doing.
Shame about Mohsar if true, he's my favourite Circle caster along with eMorv. I've also heard not great things about Kraye who is my favourite Cygnar caster.
Yea, I don't know what to think about Kraye. His spell list is less impressive than before, but everything having Cavalry (boosted charge attacks) and Reposition 5? Considering Sprint is now Self only, I would LOVE to have a caster like that in Circle. Like... so hard. Kaya3 doing that sort of trick would be amazing.
But yes, people are going back and forth about that. I only theory-machined Kraye and Kara (I REALLY wanted to build a totally custom army for both but never got around to it), but with Power up and the new cav/reposition rules Kraye seems at least about as good. Kara looks nuts, like... I think she might be the scariest 1st turn caster ever nuts. Will people run her with 11 Hunters feating shots 3" into your deployment zone first turn? Probably not, but it actually doesn't seem like the worst idea vs a battle group heavy army when you have the next 2-3 turns to finish killing them before it matters.
Yea, seriously man. If you don't want to talk about the changes that are coming, don't come into a thread about the new edition.
I am a little torn myself on the new griffon chassis, particularly the Scarsfell. Getting Argus movement and defensive stats is pretty nice really on a flying model, and being able to charge in, kill something and auto cast the screamy animus is going to be really mean to gun lines. I had fun putting Def 15 argus into RiTides Croaks and seeing them struggle to extract themselves. Getting to pop 2-3 a turn with screams is a really nice addition to that.
I am sad that Acceleration went away though, as that was just super fun and allowed for lots of weird jank that never worked as well as it should but was super fun to dream up and try to execute. I totally get why it went, but I will miss it!
I'm a little bummed on Asphyxious2 for his cloud becoming an Upkeep, and thus only having one of them out, and for his Feat being d6+3 models which is an annoying large swing for a once per game ability. The Excarnate/Purge thing was a necessary change. but I wish his Feat had been d3+6 instead. I suppose it doesn't effect me too much though since I've not played him in years. More of a Goreshade and Asphyxious1 guy myself, and those guys got Nice.
Otherwise PP is apparently doing Something right since they've reported over 200 new retailers have signed up to carry their stuff. I suppose that Would have an effect on your allocated product.
spiralingcadaver wrote: I've been pretty skeptical about PP's moves, but I'd actually say that there's nothing wrong with a game specifying the amount of terrain it's optimally played with. I mean, what's so different between that and saying what point size works best?
And one of the stereotypes of Warmachine was that it was played on blank boards, so this really seems like a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". Making water less of a pure advantage for Hordes and forests less of a pure advantage for Legion also removes a lot of the tension in that department.
novaspike wrote: It really looks like the power level of everything is pretty reduced. With the exception of jacks, which are largely the same, but cheaper and more efficient.
My impression is that there's been a push to eliminate the extreme power, defence and armour values. Large stretches of Mk2 felt like they were defined by how you deal with the huge numbers in certain skew lists--DEF 19 Kayazy Assassins, POW 16 / ARM 20 Bane Knights, DEF 16 / ARM 23 Mulg, ARM 23 Warders, ARM 22 (+2 vs shooting) Stormwalls, MAT 13 / POW 24 Wold Guardians, and whatever the numbers were on the Blightbringer / Warspear lists right at the end. A lot of things just fell out of favour because they just didn't have game against those skews.
novaspike wrote: So yeah, some changes invalidated signature playstyles, but I think that the changes are better for the game.
And a lot of them weren't really playstyles so much as just things that were overly favoured by the rules. If you can remember a time before the Standard Lylyth2 List of MK2, she was an infantry warlock in first edition! The notion that Legion didn't do infantry only came about because the fury support was so stupidly good that the supposed downside to running nothing but beasts was entirely eliminated. By the same token, I've been pretty confused to hear people say that Circle's entire faction identity is based around Lightning Strike.
And one of the stereotypes of Warmachine was that it was played on blank boards...
I know that's one of my impressions of the game at times.
I'm hoping MK3 addresses this in a way that makes sense?
Supposedly Age of Cygnar has you adding one more piece of terrain to the board, removing the restriction about walls and obstructions being in zones, and pushing terrain 6" from the sides of the boards. I do know I will selectively ignore that last one because I like to funnel people sometimes and I don't want all the boards to reverse the previous stereotype and look like random clumps in the middle of the board.
lord_blackfang wrote: I was going to list some of the major removal of playstyle options, but I only got as far as the first card in my faction before giving up in disgust: poor old Baldur1. The guy whose entire shtick is that he can teleport from forest to forest. Well, bad news, buddy, the faction as a whole lost any forest generation that could be useful to you, and the last-resort workaround to getting you into a forest, the Push power attack, was removed from the game entirely. What do you do now, Baldur? Nothing. You do nothing.
You do realize that mandating 6-7 pieces of terrain in the middle of the board is going to take care of that problem, right?
The Doom and Gloom cycle has never cycled so strong.
You do realize that taking control away from players and 'mandating we play with forests' wasn't a good design choice and shouldn't be defended, right?
There's an argument missing in that post. Taking control away can be a good balancing move. With the new placement system you can acheive virtually the same effect, except that it now demands that you plan ahead of deployment, invest actions in the form of movement, then invest ressources, when before it was just a higher requirement of ressources. I've never had to face Baldur much, so I can't speak as to wether or not that was warranted, but a lot of the dilution of power in other factions I play, I see as a good thing. I'm excited about the new Choir. On a Marshall it's potentially just as broken as before, and now I want to play Marshalls.
And, as always, we should wait until we see the Theme Forces.
And one of the stereotypes of Warmachine was that it was played on blank boards...
I know that's one of my impressions of the game at times.
I'm hoping MK3 addresses this in a way that makes sense?
Supposedly Age of Cygnar has you adding one more piece of terrain to the board, removing the restriction about walls and obstructions being in zones, and pushing terrain 6" from the sides of the boards. I do know I will selectively ignore that last one because I like to funnel people sometimes and I don't want all the boards to reverse the previous stereotype and look like random clumps in the middle of the board.
But that last part is the best!
I remember playing MkI Sorscha on a heavy board full of obstructions and buildings. It was awesome. Sadly MkI Sorscha is still a long gone memory.
lord_blackfang wrote: Mohsar at least has a bit of a feat vs Warmachine factions now?
"While in Mohsar’s control range, enemy models cannot
leech fury, enemy warbeasts cannot have fury leeched
from them, and enemy warjacks cannot power up.
Disjunction lasts for one round."
Not entirely sure what 'power up' means. I'm guessing it's the free Focus point thing.
I approve of the increased terrain rules as well. It always seemed to me that PP designed the game with certain levels of terrain in mind, but never really got around to telling us what that level was. Especially with many factions having rules that specifically call out certain types of terrain it seemed a little strange not to at least have guide lines for what should be on the table to make it work. One can hope that Gators were not paying any points for Amphibious, a rule they got use of maybe 1 game out of 50 if not playing a list that brought its own water. Units do pay a lot for Pathfinder, so no difficult terrain makes that a total waste. That isn't to say the table needs to be filled, but when terrain can make such a huge impact on balance the designers should be telling you what they are balancing around, and if players want to deviate from that one way or the other that's their call.
There's an argument missing in that post. Taking control away can be a good balancing move.
I'm sure beatstick players are thrilled every time a control faction becomes less control and more just a worse version of beatstick.
I remember back when having Open Fists everywhere was a defining trait and a big enough deal that it made up for the -4 or so POW that Cryx and Circle had compared to other factions. Those were good times.
I hated how the mk 2 meta shaked out (I stopped playing the game with any regularity about a year ago) so while I'm okay with the idea of a different subset of things becoming what is good, I'd much rather see such a wide subset of things that are equally good that the minority becomes the bad stuff rather than the good stuff.
I want to see a Merc player actually play Sam and Devil Dogs. I'd like to see more Khador Heavies. I'd like to see Trenchers. Maybe some Freebooters and Sea Dog Deck Guns. Anyone remember the Teraph? I think that was the name of a beast.
Blackfang, Cryx has done just fine without that lol. Let's see how things shake out for the factions, but everyone knew change was coming to Cryx... they were borderline OP as a faction for years now.
lord_blackfang wrote: I remember back when having Open Fists everywhere was a defining trait and a big enough deal that it made up for the -4 or so POW that Cryx and Circle had compared to other factions.
???
Trolls have two open fists on all their heavy except on two character ones that still have one open fist, and all their elemental trolls. So I am a bit surprised here. Where the axer, bouncer and impaler very popular at one time?
There's an argument missing in that post. Taking control away can be a good balancing move.
I'm sure beatstick players are thrilled every time a control faction becomes less control and more just a worse version of beatstick.
Thing is, control suuuuuucked to play against, at least to the "skip a turn" extremes that you got. Maybe someone actually enjoyed sitting there for two turns while Haley2 played around with their army and timewalked with the feat, or liked Deneghra1 switching off their army for a turn and taking a unit of her choice out the game with one spell, but I've never met them if they exist. "Negative play experience" gets thrown around inaccurately a lot, but was entirely appropriate for those lists and playstyles.
I want to see a Merc player actually play Sam and Devil Dogs. I'd like to see more Khador Heavies. I'd like to see Trenchers. Maybe some Freebooters and Sea Dog Deck Guns. Anyone remember the Teraph? I think that was the name of a beast.
I haven't been quick enough to catch the spoiled decks, so I don't know anything about Sam & Devil Dogs co. I too would like to see them play. Trenchers are going to be great. Boost in RAT, threat range, Tough, and got their price reduced. Add to this that they will likely benefit/be the cornerstone of their theme list, and I'm sure Trenchers are going to see a lot more play.
Khador Heavies theoritically should see a bump up. Power up is a bigger thing for Khador than other faction, so does the changes to repairs. The only thing is that more Heavies now means less MoW. That's a dilemma.
My main casters were both Severiuses, pReznik and Thyra. Let's just say I'm giddy as frak for MkIII.
There's an argument missing in that post. Taking control away can be a good balancing move.
I'm sure beatstick players are thrilled every time a control faction becomes less control and more just a worse version of beatstick.
Thing is, control suuuuuucked to play against, at least to the "skip a turn" extremes that you got. Maybe someone actually enjoyed sitting there for two turns while Haley2 played around with their army and timewalked with the feat, or liked Deneghra1 switching off their army for a turn and taking a unit of her choice out the game with one spell, but I've never met them if they exist. "Negative play experience" gets thrown around inaccurately a lot, but was entirely appropriate for those lists and playstyles.
Necronoxx and Blackfang weren't refering to control as in PoM's "no" game, but to control as the idea that generally more choices given to the player are a better thing. Which is true up to a point, that point being that it may be necessary to dial back the abilities and power of some models, which may translate to simply cutting out those abilities. Necessarily, that end up "taking control away from players". That shouldn't be frowned upon as a design choice, because that may be entirely warranted.
Control & denial as play strategy clearly have been dialed back in MkIII. PP even went as far as gutting the PoM faction identity and replacing it to ensure denial was dead. Now we're Skornergy + Fire. I'm at least excited to try it out.
I play(ed) mainly TB but slowly changed focus to 40K, as WarmaHordes was stacked too much towards a bunch of individual weapon masters that resembled units. Or I got to face major control casters/locks. Or had my force run into an enemy that had their DEF or ARM stacked. It was a game of scissor-paper-rock.
Now I can see TB have been lifted of the burden of buff-tax and apparently Borka1 has the spell Arcane Ward (+2 DEF and immunity to spells) while the earthborn has elemental immunity and can hand out other immunities. From my perspective it looks like a far more even game now, rather than TB being the ones to recieve a clubbering - without being able to take it.
Waaargh wrote: I play(ed) mainly TB but slowly changed focus to 40K, as WarmaHordes was stacked too much towards a bunch of individual weapon masters that resembled units. Or I got to face major control casters/locks. Or had my force run into an enemy that had their DEF or ARM stacked. It was a game of scissor-paper-rock.
Now I can see TB have been lifted of the burden of buff-tax and apparently Borka1 has the spell Arcane Ward (+2 DEF and immunity to spells) while the earthborn has elemental immunity and can hand out other immunities. From my perspective it looks like a far more even game now, rather than TB being the ones to recieve a clubbering - without being able to take it.
Trollbloods were one of the more well represented factions as far as tournament results go in mk2 i think.... tho I didnt really keep up with results in the past yearish.
Elemental wrote: Thing is, control suuuuuucked to play against, at least to the "skip a turn" extremes that you got. Maybe someone actually enjoyed sitting there for two turns while Haley2 played around with their army and timewalked with the feat, or liked Deneghra1 switching off their army for a turn and taking a unit of her choice out the game with one spell, but I've never met them if they exist. "Negative play experience" gets thrown around inaccurately a lot, but was entirely appropriate for those lists and playstyles.
It was never a particularly fun experience, no. But it was a different experience. Although I was talking more about the playstyles like suppressing warjacks through power attacks because you just didn't have the POW to actually take them out.
Or outlandish tactics like throwing your own model over the enemy battle lines. And people who kept having their warjacks knocked down complained about it being frustrating, but never considered that the other side had to somehow deal with models whose ARM was so far above their POW as to be almost invulnerable.
These things are being dialed down with every edition change and replaced with just different varieties of beating face. Add the inevitable model bloat in a limited design space, the cross-pollination of spells and abilities, and all factions are starting to look awfully similar. Any faction can make a list that plays exactly like Mk1 Cygnar or Khador. But nobody can make a list that plays like Mk1 Cryx. That style doesn't exist anymore. Abilities that used to define entire factions just don't anymore. There are less and less things you need to seriously plan around when playing against a certain faction. While this may be less "frustrating," it absolutely diminishes the variety of the play experience.
lord_blackfang wrote: But nobody can make a list that plays like Mk1 Cryx. That style doesn't exist anymore. Abilities that used to define entire factions just don't anymore. There are less and less things you need to seriously plan around when playing against a certain faction. While this may be less "frustrating," it absolutely diminishes the variety of the play experience.
I don't know if variety that includes things that just completely shut down your opponent's turn is a good thing.
Also, having come in early in MK2 I was very happy with the state of the game - but it was getting to a point that in some ways sounds like it was similar to the end of MK1, where things had just gotten out of hand and needed re-balancing. When a game that is touted as "balanced" is seeing the same power builds over and over, a re-think is needed. I'm sure there will still be certain lists and styles that will be better than others, but from all the leaks I've seen things do look to be more level again, and that's a very good thing for the health of the game.
lord_blackfang wrote: But nobody can make a list that plays like Mk1 Cryx. That style doesn't exist anymore. Abilities that used to define entire factions just don't anymore.
Elemental wrote: Thing is, control suuuuuucked to play against, at least to the "skip a turn" extremes that you got. Maybe someone actually enjoyed sitting there for two turns while Haley2 played around with their army and timewalked with the feat, or liked Deneghra1 switching off their army for a turn and taking a unit of her choice out the game with one spell, but I've never met them if they exist. "Negative play experience" gets thrown around inaccurately a lot, but was entirely appropriate for those lists and playstyles.
It was never a particularly fun experience, no. But it was a different experience. Although I was talking more about the playstyles like suppressing warjacks through power attacks because you just didn't have the POW to actually take them out.
The open fists are still right there on every model that had them in Mk2. And with warjacks getting free focus, power attacks will probably become more common. So I'm really not sure where this bit of your narrative is coming from.
Or outlandish tactics like throwing your own model over the enemy battle lines. And people who kept having their warjacks knocked down complained about it being frustrating, but never considered that the other side had to somehow deal with models whose ARM was so far above their POW as to be almost invulnerable.
These things are being dialed down with every edition change and replaced with just different varieties of beating face. Add the inevitable model bloat in a limited design space, the cross-pollination of spells and abilities, and all factions are starting to look awfully similar. Any faction can make a list that plays exactly like Mk1 Cygnar or Khador. But nobody can make a list that plays like Mk1 Cryx. That style doesn't exist anymore. Abilities that used to define entire factions just don't anymore. There are less and less things you need to seriously plan around when playing against a certain faction. While this may be less "frustrating," it absolutely diminishes the variety of the play experience.
Cryx (and Legion) were very unique in Mk2. Problem was, they ended up having so little in common with other factions that it created the "Cryx drop", where you had to take a lot of things unique to that faction into account when list-building, not to win necessarily, but so that you didn't auto-gg to the Bile Thrall / Excarnate play, or to Skarre with 30 Bane Knights. There's a difference between having a unique identity and "I'm not playing the same game as you."
Note that I'm not necessarily defending how Mk3 plays, because I simply don't know enough about it yet. Nobody does, including those who read leaked cards of uncertain source and time in the playtesting cycle. Nothing except a few months of table time and unlearning MK2 assumptions will show that. I don't see any point making blanket statements until the official, up-to-date stats drop, along with the full rules.
Nice link, Elemental . And yeah, hearing things like that is why I didn't start Hordes until MK2. Certainly sounds like the "bad old days" from here... not something I ever want them to go back to!
Elemental wrote: The open fists are still right there on every model that had them in Mk2. And with warjacks getting free focus, power attacks will probably become more common. So I'm really not sure where this bit of your narrative is coming from.
From the fact that having Open Fists used to mean a damn when they could be used to suppress enemy jacks or re-position your own models and now it doesn't because they can't.
Having Open Fists everywhere used to define you as the "throw stuff" faction, now it just defines you as the "crappy P+S" faction.
lord_blackfang wrote: But nobody can make a list that plays like Mk1 Cryx. That style doesn't exist anymore. Abilities that used to define entire factions just don't anymore.
How was it? I was not around during mk1!
Oh, to be honest it was terrible. Half the models had convoluted, circumstantial abilities that made them not worth taking because you'd never get to pull them off. The other half had convoluted but useful abilities that mostly allowed you to shut down or evade enemy models, usually without permanent harm. Barely anything in Cryx could put a dent on other factions' heavies. What you did was you traded models for time, throwing your stuff at their feet to stall until you got an angle for the caster kill. Power attacks were a big part of that, as there was no " stand up for free" rule in Mk1. You threw an enemy jack, it had to sacrifice either its move or its action next turn to get up. That's why having Open Fists was such a big deal, they could handle things that were too tough to kill.
Even with the card leaks there was some stuff that was easily overlooked.
- All Arguses picked up Pathfinder and traded stat profile with griffons, lowering SPD to 6 and getting Def 14, ARM 15.
- Wild Argus (base argus) lost ranged attack for an animus that drops eenmy models in 2" to DEF 5 and stopping them running, slamming or trampling for one round.
- Satyrs got screwed nerfed, dropping them all down to Fury 3, Gnar and Rip Horn going down to SPD 5. Rip Horn lost 1 point foSTR and all had a pts drop to Gnarl and Shadowhorn at 12 pts and Riphorn at 14.
- Warpwolves picked up soem DMG boxes and the Feral lost it's old, useless animus for Primal.
- Ghetorix came out well, losing Hyper Aggresive Ornery and unYielding, but picking up Bond Kromac, giving Overtake, and picking up an Murderous as a warp ability. His animus is now also Spiny Growth (now target SELF).
- Brennos was apparently severly changed, but i wasn't famliar with him before so can't comment on the stat card.
- Woldwyrd's RoF now a flat 3, but losta point fo FURY.
- Biggie - Geomancy can no longer be used to cast upkeep spells.
- Woldwrathc picked up Hyper Regeneration (!) (Also his ranged attack got better, but that's not in the Insisder)
- All terrain placement spells are now 'completely within'.
- The Stones' teleport ability is now aslo 'completly within.
- Reeves get a flat RoF of 2, losing Snap Fire and went down to POW 8.
- Prey lost is movement boost, so Bloodtrackers now slower.
- Another biggie - Wolf Riders lose Prey, but get Annoyance, giving enemies within 1" a minus to hit.
- Bloodweaver swap Blood SPiller for Greiveace Wounds and Life Spiller-“When an attack with this weapon destroys an enemy model, immediately after the attack is resolved a friendly living Faction model currently in this model’s command range can remove d3 damage points.”
- Druids got nerfed bad. Lots of changes, ad their stat card is in the link.
- Ravagers went downt o 5 hit boxes, but gaining Tough and getting a slight point decrease.
- Ravager Shaman now a solo, not a WA, and gets an ability preventing knockdowns, whihc should match well with Tough.
- Wilder lost Spirit Tap and Medicate and Shepherds CAll, but picked up a spell allowing her to upkeep one upkeep spell without spending Fury.
- Kreuger STormlord gets an ability to repvent electrical damage to friendlies in his control area.
- Morv 1 can prevent the loss of upkeep spells by taking d3 dmg.
- Morv 2 lost purification, but picked up a spell which will allow enemy locks to upkeep upkeep spells by taking d3 dmg.
- Wurmwood is the Warlock, not cassius.
- Bradigus' Synergy getsa limit of +3 but now only costs 2.
- Kromac 2 gains Vengeful in place of Primal Howl, giving friendly model's Retaliatory Strike. His feat got reworded also - “Kromac immediately casts Carnage without spending fury. Additionally, while in Kromac’s control range, living models in his battlegroup gain +2 STR and ARM. Bloodlust lasts for one round.”
So you charge with an argus, getting within 2 inches of a high def target and then use it's animus and it'll be DEF 5/9 against ranged (5 + 4 for being in combat).
Yeah, that is pretty cool. I was a bit miffed, as I liked their old animus with the LotF and the Stalker, but this is pretty damn frightening if you're fighting it, especially if some Stones are nearby.
I am a little pissed at Wolf Riders losing Prey though. The swap of Annoyance is ridiculous. If they're ever within 1" of an enemy something has gone very wrong.
What's this? Reasonable discussion, balanced takes, and dare I say it, moderate excitement!
Circle changes seem to retain a lot of it's flavor while removing oddball corner case stuff. I expect to see the WoldWrath a bit more locally, as many folks bought it but didn't use it.
I think Annoyance is a decent concession on Wolf Riders, giving them a bit more defensive tech against counter charges or retaliation in case you can't get away after attacking. I don't recall playing them that often, did they rely on the + to hit with Prey? I mean, prey is one of the best abilities in the game, but are they handicapped without it?
I don't want to make judgements without playing them, but it's a major takeaway from them. They were perhaps the most maneuverable unit in the game in mkii with Prey, and also hit pretty damn hard with it, in exchange for being very squishy and fairlly hefty in the ptice department.
They're stick fast adn hard hitting, just not as much, but I honestly can't think of a time when they were in melee when I didn't want them there.
.Mikes. wrote: I don't want to make judgements without playing them, but it's a major takeaway from them. They were perhaps the most maneuverable unit in the game in mkii with Prey, and also hit pretty damn hard with it, in exchange for being very squishy and fairlly hefty in the ptice department.
They're stick fast adn hard hitting, just not as much, but I honestly can't think of a time when they were in melee when I didn't want them there.
I'd rather have Prey, but that's not my decision.
But the Woldwrath - hell yeah! Much better now.
Does the reform movement granted to Cavalry models allow them to ignore freestrikes (I don't even remember if they did in MKII, I've been involved in a limited basis for roughly the last year due to other commitments)? If it does not, then annoyance essentially gives you some survivability in case they don't kill their target initially. But agreed, losing prey hurts, but (EDIT) don't mind me, I failed to read close enough and missed that PREY no longer grants additional speed.
Nah, light cav movement didn't ignore free strikes, so your point is valid. Also with pre-measuring - which I never considered. I don't know if the new cavalry movement skill thingy will, but I'd be surprised if it does.
Oh damn, I just saw something else looking at the Rider's new card which wasn't in the Insider - they lose the ability to re-roll missed throws. *Thats* a bigger hindrance than losing Prey. Without Prey they're stuck at RAT 6. With Prey the rerolled on MAT 8, which was perhaps OP, but losing both rather than just one was harsh.
Also, they lost a point of DEF, and for the same points.
I was kind've OK with the changes before, but this seems... well, like they weren't thinking. It's not like Wolf riders were dominating every Circle force.
"- Morv 2 lost purification, but picked up a spell which will allow enemy locks to upkeep upkeep spells by taking d3 dmg....."
Emphasis mine.
Um, what?
Since when is giving your opponent more options a tactical idea? Not to mention they got rid of a spell for this?
Tell me we're missing something?
Here's the exact wording: “Upkeep spells in the spellcaster’s control range immediately expire. A spellcaster can keep any of its upkeep spells in play by suffering d3 damage points per spell. Censure can be cast only once per activation.”
Haven't looked too closely at Morv 2's card, so don't know what else has changed,.
"- Morv 2 lost purification, but picked up a spell which will allow enemy locks to upkeep upkeep spells by taking d3 dmg....."
Emphasis mine.
Um, what?
Since when is giving your opponent more options a tactical idea? Not to mention they got rid of a spell for this?
Tell me we're missing something?
My guess is it's actually take D3 dmg or no upkeeping of spells.
It appears that in the new edition, most effects that remove upkeeps say "unless the caster takes d3 damage points per spell". So you can resist it, but it hurts. It's not "you can take damage instead of paying for upkeep".
- Trenchers get a RAT boost to 6 (woohoo!), and bayonets get a 1" RNG and Brutal Charge (woohoo!) *and* Tough (double woohoo!)
- Trencher Grenadier gets a blast POW of 10
- Trencher Officer gets a mini feat allowing the unit to drop smoke while charging.
- Trencher cost = 10\16, Officer & Sniper 5, and UA 2 each.
- The Avenger, Hammersmith and Centurion got +1 to MAT and RAT - Defender's Shock Hammer went up to P+S 17
- Cyclone get a major points drop to 13
- Reliant down to 14 points
- Thunderhead got +1 STR, Lightning Coil went to ROF 3, Fists went to RNG 1", Fist lose Critical Disruption, also get a slight poitns drop.
- Gun mages get Gunfighter
- Gun mage Officer loses Tactics: True Sight for Tactis: Practiced Manouvres and Granted: Swift Hunter
- Gun Mage Captain Edept get a decent reworking (card in link)
- Gunner Officer gets a minifeat of Reform 5" and Granted: Trained Fire (additional damge die on models within 8")
- Sword Knights - Defensive Line now grants +2DEF not ARM, and gives immunity to Knock Down, will cost 8/16
- Storm Callers look to have been given a fairly major rework. If I'm reading the card right (in th elink) they're no longer purchased signally, but 3 for 5pts and their Stormcall now ignores Stealth.
- Kraye now grants ALL jacks in the group Re-position 5" and impact attacks, and boosted attack rolls on charge attacks (this isn't explained further,)
- Capt. Caine can choose between Black Penny, Grievous Wounds or Trick Shot on any of his pistol shot (Reload: Infinite) and innately has True Sight.
- Nemo 1 get Field Marshal Supercharge, so all his jacks can have 4 Focus.
- SLoan (card in link) gets a new spell Guided Fire, cost 3, RNG self, AOE - CTRL, giving boosted ranged attack rolls for one turn.
- Strom Strider gets a MAT boost to 6, ARM boost to 19, LIghtning Cannon goes otRoF 2, gains a melee attack RNG 1", P+S 13. Picks up Duel Attack, but loses Critical Disruption.
Lightning Coil has always been RoF3, and his fists still have Crit Disruption.
Stormsmiths have always ignored Stealth as previously it was a skill check, not an attack. Now it's an actual ranged attack, albeit one that ignores Cover, Concealment, Elevation and Stealth, but not LoS. They are indeed three for 5pts now, and additionally are FA:3, so you can have nine of them in a list.
I think one of the problems lots of people has isn't that "My whole faction is invalidated", but more "the models I have and the playstyle I enjoyed is looking pretty hard to keep going". Like I loved running eSorscha with her thematic troops (Winter Guard Infantry) and some other bits and bobs. But that sort of list is...well I don't want to say dead, but the loss of abilities on both of those models has removed the two reasons I enjoyed playing that list. Sure, I know Khador got a whole raft of buffs (Silence of Death change on B3? hahahaha amazing; Karchev in general? Apparently pretty neat now). But that wasn't what brought me into the faction, and what I had bought into. I'll find my feet eventually, probably after the meta has shifted away from the initial JACKS FOR DAYS response which seems to be coming. And I'll still enjoy it. But I'm a bit disheartened still, until I can figure out how to use what I have.
I like the look of these changes. The worst power combo`s and boring to play against super control casters getting pulled down a notch is great news.
More jacks with more focus is also awesome.
I am sad about my favorite caster totally changing playstyle, Karchev was my guy even though he kind of sucked. Great that B2 and V2 look like they have kept their fun playstyles at least.
motyak wrote: I think one of the problems lots of people has isn't that "My whole faction is invalidated", but more "the models I have and the playstyle I enjoyed is looking pretty hard to keep going". Like I loved running eSorscha with her thematic troops (Winter Guard Infantry) and some other bits and bobs. But that sort of list is...well I don't want to say dead, but the loss of abilities on both of those models has removed the two reasons I enjoyed playing that list. Sure, I know Khador got a whole raft of buffs (Silence of Death change on B3? hahahaha amazing; Karchev in general? Apparently pretty neat now). But that wasn't what brought me into the faction, and what I had bought into. I'll find my feet eventually, probably after the meta has shifted away from the initial JACKS FOR DAYS response which seems to be coming. And I'll still enjoy it. But I'm a bit disheartened still, until I can figure out how to use what I have.
I imagine when they release the theme forces for everything you Winter Guard army lists will be more competitive - if they aren't already. I'm really looking forward to the theme force reveals myself because I tend to like thematic armies too.
Since the theme forces haven't been done yet (at least not all
of them, they've mentioned playtesting during the spoiler
threads), I don't know that they'll be released during this weekend
or if they're waiting for faction anthologies to release them.
malfred wrote: Since the theme forces haven't been done yet (at least not all
of them, they've mentioned playtesting during the spoiler
threads), I don't know that they'll be released during this weekend
or if they're waiting for faction anthologies to release them.
The only one to be released initially is the Cephalyx one, since they Require one to play. It allows only Cephalyx models/units and Merc units with the Dominator attachment. In return you get a free unit of Overlords if you spend 30pts on Drudge units, Monstrosities gain Hyper Aggressive, and one unit of Mind Slaver Drudges gain Ambush. Follows their stated theme of the theme forces being a free thing for X points spent on specific stuff, a bonus rule to a model/unit type, and an alteration to your deployment.
Speaking of theme forces, this is from PPS_Will on the PP forums:
Largely they all follow a similar 3 benefit format:
For every X points of something get Y for free (for example for every 25 points spent on warjacks add 1 solo or Command Attachment for free)
X thing gets Y benefit (For example Arcane Tempest Gun Mage Units gain CRA)
X bonus to pre-game set up (For example get +2" to your deployment)
There are no requirement or tiers to fulfill. You just take the theme force and get all the benefits.
So it's exactly like GW formation datasheets. Is this the future of rules designed to drive sales across the hobby? Buy models X, Y and Z, get this free powerup?
You do realize that all of this was the kind of benefit that the previous theme force provided, right? Mine gave my Thumper Crew AD (BUY 2 THUMPER CREW TO GET THIS AWESOME POWERUP), gave me +2" to movement on my first turn for my battlegroup (BUY 3 HEAVY WARBEASTS TO GET THIS AWESOME POWERUP), gave me trench templates (BUY 2 UNITS TO GET THIS AWESOME POWERUP. AND BUY TWO MORE FOR ANOTHER ONE! AND SO ON!) and point reductions on my blitzers and bombers. Exactly like GW formation datasheet. Except for the part where army list making works completely differently in 40k and Warmachine, and how theme list prevents you from taking some models while formations allow you to take whatever you want along with them.
lord_blackfang wrote: So it's exactly like GW formation datasheets. Is this the future of rules designed to drive sales across the hobby? Buy models X, Y and Z, get this free powerup?
Actually no.
GW just adds random gak without thinking 0 seconds about the consequences. PP at least gets it right 95% of the time and cleary is capable of correcting mistakes. GW is not.
A LOT of things have lost points of DEF. I suspect that it's an intentional change - many units lose DEF, some units gain a bit of MAT. Intended to make the game run faster by making infantry squishier/killier. I know that Iron Fangs went to Def 12 but up to Mat 7.
.Mikes. wrote: OK, another basic question, but it's been so long I've forgotten the answer - did I read that PP will release PDFs of the WM and Horde's rulebooks?
Yep, those should be released (for free) when the official launch happens. So this weekend maybe?
Hills just give arcing fire now
Immunity Electricity means you are ignore for all electric leaps and arcs (explains why Nemo3 lost the rule)
LoS is still a bottom up method but no longer butt vision. Line must be drawn from the front arc.
Mk3 leaks
New terrain types formally in the rules - smoke clouds, burning forests and acid pool. The latter two cause their respective continuous effects, but every turn you roll a d6 and on a 1 or 2 they lose their dangerous condition. For clouds on a 1 or 2 they dissipate
Walls and obstacles in zones appear to be ok.
You can target units with models out of formation with friendly upkeep spells again, however you cannot target the OOF models themselves
Free strikes unchanged, engagement unchanged.
Back strike still plus 2. Don't need to start in the back to get the bonus.
Interesting mk3 rule.
You can't make a free strike if you're incorporeal.
Hills just give arcing fire now
Immunity Electricity means you are ignore for all electric leaps and arcs (explains why Nemo3 lost the rule)
LoS is still a bottom up method but no longer butt vision. Line must be drawn from the front arc.
Mk3 leaks
New terrain types formally in the rules - smoke clouds, burning forests and acid pool. The latter two cause their respective continuous effects, but every turn you roll a d6 and on a 1 or 2 they lose their dangerous condition. For clouds on a 1 or 2 they dissipate
Walls and obstacles in zones appear to be ok.
You can target units with models out of formation with friendly upkeep spells again, however you cannot target the OOF models themselves
Free strikes unchanged, engagement unchanged.
Back strike still plus 2. Don't need to start in the back to get the bonus.
Interesting mk3 rule.
You can't make a free strike if you're incorporeal.
Hmm, assuming accurate... so ret get a Covenant, but small based and FA 2. I suppose covenant still has anti-magic vs the healing on this model, but the combination of Ancient Shroud and Power of Faith is what both will be taken for, so covenant no longer seems like a unique piece of Protectorate denial. Wish they'd differentiated them a little more, but ah well.
The Exemplar officer seems interesting, and makes the unit into offensive power houses, but on the flip side he also makes them a moderately expensive unit, and doesn't help them with survival or delivery, so I dunno.... But they will be hella fun with Vindictus now. If we get an Exemplar theme force like Crusader of Sul at any point though, Kreoss 2 will make these guys baller, 3 Autohitting overtake attacks with 5d6-drop-lowest damage will be hilarious.
One thing to keep in mind with that healer is currently Retribution has no access to Tough, so the No Knockdown isn't as good for them as it is for Protectorate. The Soul Ward is actually a really interesting ability to mess with people. Enemy models can't collect Soul Tokens from models within her Command Range.
Neronoxx wrote: We called Privateer Press once, way back when we were trying to support their dying community here. We wanted to be able to buy directly from them. You know, give them all of the money, cutting out the middle man and getting product faster. Like a lot of Businesses do.
They flat out refused. Again and again. Why? Because we were a store, not a distributor.
What kind of brain dead monkey in a suit refuses a banna offered to it?
A monkey that would rather deal with three distributors than 300 independent retailers? I know some manufacturers are willing and eager to work directly with retail stores, but there are reasons why others might not. There's a reason the manufacturer->distributor->retailer system exists in the first place.
Neronoxx wrote: We called Privateer Press once, way back when we were trying to support their dying community here. We wanted to be able to buy directly from them. You know, give them all of the money, cutting out the middle man and getting product faster. Like a lot of Businesses do.
They flat out refused. Again and again. Why? Because we were a store, not a distributor.
What kind of brain dead monkey in a suit refuses a banna offered to it?
A monkey that would rather deal with three distributors than 300 independent retailers? I know some manufacturers are willing and eager to work directly with retail stores, but there are reasons why others might not. There's a reason the manufacturer->distributor->retailer system exists in the first place.
We're not discussing that anymore, in case you haven't noticed.
Apparently if you own the decks here in Aus already (and didn't buy them in the grace period) it'll set you back 90 bucks to be able to play. That's not....too bad?
When I got it a while back, 60ish from memory. But that was 3-4 books ago, so new cards, and it is a new ed and all that, so not too bad compared to the alternative (having to buy decks for everyone then new decks whenever they errata)
I've just seen on the PP forum that the rules are in the app as well, maybe that's partly why?
This is from Tinkerhouse who I believe made the app:
Just to add some data in here to quantify what people are reporting from the Google store. Here is the breakdown of prices in USD:
• All battle box contents are free in the app.
• Ultimate Bundle - $79.99 or $59.99 Founders Discount
• Warmachine Bundle - $47.99 or $39.99 Founders Discount
• Hordes Bundle - $37.99 or $29.99 Founders Discount
• Convergence of Cyriss - $4.99 or $3.99 Founders Discount
• All Other Factions - $8.99 or $6.99 Founders Discount
If you purchased after January 1st 2016 you get the that purchase upgraded to its War Room 2 equivalent for free. If you purchased anything before then you get the Founders Discount for that product. If you purchased all the pieces of any bundle for War Room 1, you get the Founders Discount for that bundle.
And the rules are free. In War Room 2 or from the site once it is released.
Wow, they really are asking that much? This would have been a perfect time to reduce the price of War Room and try to push it as a serious option, At those prices, most people are probably going to skip it.
They're nearly the same prices as last time. The most expensive one only went up $20, and still cost less than half what it would cost to buy all the physical decks, and includes every card yet to be released as well.
So for $80 $($60 if you have the old decks) USD you get all the rules for all the factions, all errata and updates, all future releases and the core rules. For the life of the edition. Yes it's steep but that's far from disgusting. How much does a hardcover rulebook for 40k cost? Or how much for any other system?
Not liking the digital format is another issue I can see people having, especially with how buggy warroom was when first released. The price for what you get is not bad.
Well for a start you get the digital rules for this game free anyway (like you do for a lot of games nowadays) so you can take that out of the equation. I used Warroom for MK2 but asking me to pay $60 for them is outrageous frankly. I'm going to give this new edition a try and see if it is worth the investment again, but since they have changed the playstyle of the caster and nerfed the models I use I don't think it is likely. But then again if I do like it is may have to start a new faction as I don't like the other models in my chosen faction.
Henshini wrote: How much would all the cards in paper cost by comparison?
MSRP on the card decks are $(American)20 per deck, per faction I think.
WarRoom isn't a bad deal IMO. But it will be my one resource I buy. Also just a random tip, you can download the app, and you'll have the MK3 rules and all battlegroup cards unlocked for free. It also gets errata'd, which is important if they stick to their "6 month errata" claims.
Prime + my faction decks were going to be more expensive than full retail on Warroom and I'll get a discount.
There's also a distinct possibility that demand could outstrip supply of dead tree cards at launch, given the indications we've been given, so War Room could very well be the only way to play Mk3 for many of us for some weeks.
overtyrant wrote: Well for a start you get the digital rules for this game free anyway (like you do for a lot of games nowadays) so you can take that out of the equation. I used Warroom for MK2 but asking me to pay $60 for them is outrageous frankly. I'm going to give this new edition a try and see if it is worth the investment again, but since they have changed the playstyle of the caster and nerfed the models I use I don't think it is likely. But then again if I do like it is may have to start a new faction as I don't like the other models in my chosen faction.
It's your money and you can do what you want with it of course. If you don't find value in it vote with your wallet.
Personally, I find it a good value. As others have pointed out there are other game companies who put out more rules for free, and there are others who charge for every little rule. The companies for who put them out for free generally don't have an app with all the rules that get errata'd and updated with all future releases. That takes time and money and I find it a good value.
I find warroom to be a great tool in theory, but lacking in practice.
I much prefer the cards to phone on the tabletop. Still will be nice to have access as Azrael said, I am positive faction decks could become scarce.
overtyrant wrote: Well for a start you get the digital rules for this game free anyway (like you do for a lot of games nowadays) so you can take that out of the equation. I used Warroom for MK2 but asking me to pay $60 for them is outrageous frankly. I'm going to give this new edition a try and see if it is worth the investment again, but since they have changed the playstyle of the caster and nerfed the models I use I don't think it is likely. But then again if I do like it is may have to start a new faction as I don't like the other models in my chosen faction.
You don't have to buy the bundle, you know. You can just pay $9 for your faction deck.
overtyrant wrote: Well for a start you get the digital rules for this game free anyway (like you do for a lot of games nowadays) so you can take that out of the equation. I used Warroom for MK2 but asking me to pay $60 for them is outrageous frankly. I'm going to give this new edition a try and see if it is worth the investment again, but since they have changed the playstyle of the caster and nerfed the models I use I don't think it is likely. But then again if I do like it is may have to start a new faction as I don't like the other models in my chosen faction.
You don't have to buy the bundle, you know. You can just pay $9 for your faction deck.
Or buy them all separately and spread the cost out. Works out more expensive but it's spread out and $9 a month is like a couple of coffees less a month or something.
overtyrant wrote: Well for a start you get the digital rules for this game free anyway (like you do for a lot of games nowadays) so you can take that out of the equation. I used Warroom for MK2 but asking me to pay $60 for them is outrageous frankly. I'm going to give this new edition a try and see if it is worth the investment again, but since they have changed the playstyle of the caster and nerfed the models I use I don't think it is likely. But then again if I do like it is may have to start a new faction as I don't like the other models in my chosen faction.
You don't have to buy the bundle, you know. You can just pay $9 for your faction deck.
Yep. I only bought 2 decks for Mk 2 - Menoth and Mercs, and that's all I need, battle college gave or looking at stats at release told me everything I needed to know otherwise.
For MK 3, assuming AUD$12 a deck, I'll pay AUD$18 total out of pocket (I buy iTunes Gift cards at 25% off), for the life of the edition with years of updates, or until I choose to start another faction. Definitely an excellent deal for me, way cheaper than The codexes/army books I used to buy some years ago. The the main rules are being released for free as well, so that's going to be my only outlay for the MK 3 change over except for models I choose to buy Definitely a good deal from my perspective, and that's even though I don't have much cash for hobby stuff at the moment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That hell mouth seems interesting, and very aggressively priced. The mouth itself will be effectively ARM 21.5 with 8 boxes, and you can kill one of your own tentacles if you want so you can place one up to 8" forward in your activation. I think they're a very cheap way to get your opponent to either give up some board control, or spend lots of resources trying to kill a 6pt unit.
Strangely, the unit is far better when going second, as you can then place far enough forward (22") that you can contest zones fairly well.
I'm actually pretty confident in the new Warroom under the assumption it's built using the lessons Tinker learned during the first one. When that first Warroom came out it was pretty bad. Quite unstable, crashed a lot, lots of card errors, ect. Widely panned and mocked by most of even the hardcore fans. Still mocked in general because of that legacy. By the end it was perfectly fine though and makes for a great card resource and, baring a few exceptions, list builder. I'm expecting Warroom 2 to be right about the level where 1 left off.
iBodger was a great list builder. It however did not include every card and rule in the game or damage tracking, so I'm going with Warroom quite exceeded the free army builders.
Yea, the best thing about Warroom for me is being able to proxy/counts-as the hell out of lists. Being able to try all sorts of different armies and builds without having to invest in anything extra (I have far too many war gaming models) was really useful. I used Forward Kommander for most of my list building needs before, but Warroom quite nicely took over that space.
Being able to just browse through other armies was great fun too.
I am very excited to see that Wolfrider solo! The wolf girls really need some sort of boost to make them interesting to take, and that might just be it!
Hah, that's a hilarious model . The only hard thing with trolls is they have such outlandish themed models / units, that making a coherently themed army can be a bit tough. But I really like that concept and execution . I'm not together on my dates, are these from Lock n Load?
Azreal13 wrote: There's also a distinct possibility that demand could outstrip supply of dead tree cards at launch, given the indications we've been given, so War Room could very well be the only way to play Mk3 for many of us for some weeks.
Yeah, I'm wondering about this, too...
I was going to preorder the items from MM or the Warstore, but MM's huge disclaimers on each page that they might not get enough product in time scared me off, not to mention that you couldn't even preorder the deck I wanted! Warstore had preorders up, but I'm not sure if I'd have them by that Friday, and have a game worked out for the Saturday after release (which I think is a Wednesday).
Right now, I was planning to just go to the FLGS that carries the whole PP line and try to buy it the day of... anyone else have plans for ordering from a reliable source that would be able to ship on the day of release?
At this point I have no idea. They sound to have far outpaced their expected sales and there is some heavy allocation for stores. I've heard they've had to go thru and make sure stores weren't trying to "cheat" their allocation by ordering from multiple distributors as well. No idea if bigger web stores like Warstore or MM are getting bigger allocations or if they'll be stuck with the same amount as any given FLGS. I'd be worried about day of purchases if you don't already have a preorder in place.
You can always buy Warroom tomorrow (Sunday 12) and have all the rules and cards. Then you have a whole week to read and scheme before showing up to be humiliated.
tommse wrote: No way! Are those really greylord man o wars?
Greylord Man o' War warcaster, says someone who posted the same pic on my local FLGS's Facebook page. (seen at L&L, obviously). Whether that's actually what it is, no telling. But it'd be pretty damn cool if it were.
I Think the artwork is stuff someone data mined out of the new Warroom, as I heard that included all the artwork and unit names and people had leaked unit names matching that artwork previously.
tommse wrote: No way! Are those really greylord man o wars?
Greylord Man o' War warcaster, says someone who posted the same pic on my local FLGS's Facebook page. (seen at L&L, obviously). Whether that's actually what it is, no telling. But it'd be pretty damn cool if it were.
Just a solo from what I've heard. People are guessing it's the new source of Power Booster they talked about previously.
Those War Room prices are absurd. No army builder is worth 60+ dollars, and pretty much everyone else outside of GW provides all stats for free: Because they're part of the rules! Most provide the whole ruleset (of which the Stats are a core part) for free.
Killionaire wrote: Those War Room prices are absurd. No army builder is worth 60+ dollars, and pretty much everyone else outside of GW provides all stats for free: Because they're part of the rules! Most provide the whole ruleset (of which the Stats are a core part) for free.
Cards are provided with models sold, and you don't need to buy all the factions if you don't own all the factions. My total cost of moving to MK3 will be less than $20 (mercs and Menoth decks in warroom) which is pretty much a bargain considering the years of work that have gone into the new edition. Rule book is provided free as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, this is hilarious for anyone who listened to the last Prime Cast podcast.
The sea king is doing nothing for me. It just tries to hard but fails spectacularly in the end. Specially dislike the scale issues, like tiny caravel with huge anchor and ridiculous big barnacles.
Nothing saves this one and its kind of embarrassing.
I'm not sure what I think of this. In Mk. II we had a supplement for each faction containing stats, rules, fluff and Tier Lists. It sounds like in Mk.III We are going to have a "Commander" book for each faction and one or more "Theme" books for each faction with special lists, too? They did say something about releasing new models to go with each Theme book, so I guess that would be a good thing. The bad thing would be needing(?) to buy multiple books for each of your forces.
.Mikes. wrote: Colour me interested in the pumpkin head faction.
Same here!
Love them pumpkin headed minis!
I've also got problems with the boat/anchor/etc. scale issues on the Sea King - but since I don't collect Trolls, ultimately it is no big deal!
I was *this* close to selling off my Khador stuff - but with MK3 rules being free, I think I'll stick around for a while longer...
I'm not sure about Pumpkin Heads - I mean, I'll need to see a lot more than 3 sketches ... but from that teaser they kinda feel like a Circle/Cryx hybrid. The Sea King I mostly like - and I don't see any scale issues - he at some point picked up an Anchor from a big boat to use as a weapon, and he wears a smaller boat for a hat. That said, I hope the boat-hat is easily left off and the area underneath detailed enough - because I'm not sure I like the boat hat. If the boat hat were to become a howdah for some pygs though ....
I'm not sure what I think of this. In Mk. II we had a supplement for each faction containing stats, rules, fluff and Tier Lists. It sounds like in Mk.III We are going to have a "Commander" book for each faction and one or more "Theme" books for each faction with special lists, too? They did say something about releasing new models to go with each Theme book, so I guess that would be a good thing. The bad thing would be needing(?) to buy multiple books for each of your forces.
What are other people thinking about this?
The Cephylax theme force in the main rulebook is pretty interesting - better than the normal +2 to deployment zone. - so if other theme forces follow suite, and the books are fairly cheap (in my head - I picture them as only being like 20 pages long) I'm all for it. It will lead to fluffier armies in WM/Hordes - which is always where my interests have been.
RoninXiC wrote:No one knows. PPs "keynote" yesterday was a big missed chance :(
The "keynote" was such a disappointment. I don't know what they were thinking. This is a launch of a new edition and that's what you do? I feel sorry for anyone on the east coast who stayed up to watch it.
I'm not sure what I think of this. In Mk. II we had a supplement for each faction containing stats, rules, fluff and Tier Lists. It sounds like in Mk.III We are going to have a "Commander" book for each faction and one or more "Theme" books for each faction with special lists, too? They did say something about releasing new models to go with each Theme book, so I guess that would be a good thing. The bad thing would be needing(?) to buy multiple books for each of your forces.
What are other people thinking about this?
The books are going to be basically for the fluff heads, as the theme forces and models are already going to be on cards (for the models only) and Warroom. I think it will be pretty good actually, as it means that they can explore the fluff on a factions themes far more in-depth for those who want to know, while not actually costing those who just want to play the game any more (so it's not like 40k expansions). I imagine the theme books will be somewhat similar to the smaller Cephalyx book.
Maddermax wrote: The books are going to be basically for the fluff heads, as the theme forces and models are already going to be on cards (for the models only) and Warroom.
My understanding from the video is that the "Theme" lists are going to be something like the Mk.II "Tier" lists, in that you are limited to certain options and if your force includes certain options you get benefits. Are you saying that this list-building information is going to be on the cards?
I'm a bit out of the loop, too. What exactly is in the "Warroom" app? Is it just electronic copies of the cards, or does it include digital copies of the books, too?
I think it will be pretty good actually, as it means that they can explore the fluff on a factions themes far more in-depth for those who want to know, while not actually costing those who just want to play the game any more (so it's not like 40k expansions).
I'm not sure how that's different from the old Faction books. There's nothing in those that you need to play the game, its all on the cards. The Faction books just give you more fluff and the Tier lists to do themed forces.
I mean, I'll probably buy all the books for the armies I collect. I'm just curious what we are getting from each product.
The War Room 2 app does indeed have the rules, in addition to the cards. Unfortunately you have to pay for the cards, but the rules are free, there's even a PDF of them that PP have posted separately here:
I meant that the physical cards have only the models, but War Room has both the models and theme forces included if you buy the deck for the appropriate army. Or at least it *will* have the theme forces, once they become available.
So yes, it's going to be pretty much the same as the Faction books are currently, but back when the MK2 faction books came out War Room wasn't a thing, so buying the book was the only way to get all the theme forces and new model stats. Since that isn't a concern anymore, it'll be mostly for people who like the fluff, or who like physical references.
There's an example of the new theme forces on P94 of the rules PDF as well, just FYI.
I'm not sure what I think of this. In Mk. II we had a supplement for each faction containing stats, rules, fluff and Tier Lists. It sounds like in Mk.III We are going to have a "Commander" book for each faction and one or more "Theme" books for each faction with special lists, too? They did say something about releasing new models to go with each Theme book, so I guess that would be a good thing. The bad thing would be needing(?) to buy multiple books for each of your forces.
What are other people thinking about this?
The commander books will be Casters, jacks and generic utility units plus fluff. Each Theme list will be its own book.
So I play circle, so I will have to buy a commander book, plus a Blackclad book, plus a Wolf sworn book, plus a Tharn book
While they're a slight improvement over the current brigands (and look quite beefy, which is cool) still not really a fan.
It's a shame that PP's metals and characters can look So awesome (that brigand warlord model on the right) and their PVC units don't come close. Very glad Wehrkind converted mine! (from GW gor kits, with slaughterhouser heads)
Also, until PP put in more than 2.5 sculpts for a 10man unit (not counting the unit leader) I'm never going to be buying many of their units, and will continue to convert for them instead!
I don't really see much difference between the Brigands and the Warlord personally! They're a big improvement over the metal ones, which I didn't really mind anyway.
I like the Protectorate caster from the blurry pic too.
The differences look to me to be mostly driven by the material (which is why I think most of their PVC sculpts are poor) in that they need exaggerated features / not have fine detail. Compare the size of the Warlord's details (particularly the head) to the unit.
And you're right, the original brigands were metal but just very dated sculpts. And obviously, metal can't make up for repeat sculpts (I've got a 20-strong unit of shamblers with 3 sculpts although bending them around a bit helped!).
Anyway, don't want to rain on anyone's parade, they're certainly an improvement... I just hope people can convert up the poses a bit!
I really do like the Protectorate characters and Warjacks but can never really get into their infantry. I have a huge Protectorate army but not liking the infantry just kills it for me.
I have my Mercs and have always like Khador so it may be new edition new army time for me.
Thanatos73 wrote: I really do like the Protectorate characters and Warjacks but can never really get into their infantry. I have a huge Protectorate army but not liking the infantry just kills it for me.
I have my Mercs and have always like Khador so it may be new edition new army time for me.
I like quite a lot of the Protectorate models, but I don't generally go for the really religious factions so their fluff puts me off them a bit.
It's hard to believe PP has spent years playtesting MK3 when there's apparently going to be an official day 1 errata on the actual street date of the new boxes.
Sining wrote: It's hard to believe PP has spent years playtesting MK3 when there's apparently going to be an official day 1 errata on the actual street date of the new boxes.
Yep, that's why I'm not putting down for physical cards this time around ha. War Room all the way.
sorry if this has been asked already but im late to the party.
Ive always liked warmachine but the crazy combos and quick kill setups kind of turned me off to it towards the end.
this may just be perception and I could be wrong
has mk3 cleaned those situations up?
is there a place to view cards for free?
I used to go to battle college or something like that but am either remembering things poorly or the site is gone.
on a side note... what books are safe to buy for a new player just starting out?
just the main rulebooks?
I haven't played a game yet, but it seems to me the quick kills have if nything become quicker.
Battle college is still there and still being updated, but mkiii will have put it out of action for a while as the mods get to grips with the new stats and changes.
They've lowered threat ranges on a lot of stuff, but then also lowered some of the higher end defense and armor, so it's hard to say how quick death will come.
ImAGeek wrote: Eh, there's always going to be things that slip through the cracks with a new edition of a game.
Well, considering when Kara Sloans feat was leaked, there was a huge uproar over the potential turn 1 assassination. Somehow PP didn't see that possibility. Now, being errataed before the mk3 officially starts. Same for wold guardians. Used to be in EVERY bradigus list cause they're the highest pow beasts he can take. Except they had sturdy in the leaked cards, which basically meant bradigus entire feat was useless with them. Apparently Soles said he didn't think about the interaction with brads feat but don't worry, also getting errata on day1. A lot of these really should have been obvious if you even playtested the normal lists
They def. have playtested them... but not to an extent some of us would've loved.
2 weeks grinding all the "final" rules bye some of the WTC teams or some better podcast members would've easily shown them the biggest mistakes.
Yea, I am really skeptical of their play test groups after hearing what they are changing with errata right off the bat. As soon as the leaked cards popped up people in the Circle forums noticed that Heart Eater allowed you to kill friendlies and get hearts. Damned near the first thing anyone saw. Yet somehow the play testers missed that completely, and no one inside caught it before it was finalized? That's really strange seeing as how it is a key mechanic for 7 different cards in Circle. I get that playing with slightly changing rules over the course of 3 years makes it easy to miss things, but at some point you'd think they would have shown the cards to a few outsiders and gotten them to look at stuff like that. Or really, their play test groups should be made up of exactly the sort of people that notice that kind of stuff.
usernamesareannoying wrote: sorry if this has been asked already but im late to the party.
Ive always liked warmachine but the crazy combos and quick kill setups kind of turned me off to it towards the end.
this may just be perception and I could be wrong
has mk3 cleaned those situations up?
is there a place to view cards for free?
I used to go to battle college or something like that but am either remembering things poorly or the site is gone.
on a side note... what books are safe to buy for a new player just starting out?
just the main rulebooks?
thanks...
You cant see the cards, but you can see the core rules for free lots of places. If you download the WarRoom 2.0 app, the core rules and all battlegroups cards are free. Privateer also has PDFs up on their site with the MK3 core rules. Battlecollege will be up again, but they are in the process of major changes, maybe even the hostins.
PP clings to GW's path like a drunk to a lamp post, I guess they've reached the point where they print rules that any casual player can pick apart at first glance.
My current theory is that Privateer's sales are way down and MK3 was rushed to bring in some money.
When they were growing and everything is great they didn't care how or who was selling their stuff and then all of a sudden they start caring about internet discounters. The only reason they would do that is if their retailers were selling less. They may blame the online stores, but when the game was growing they had no problem with it.
Then MK3 is suddenly announced. It's not much in terms of changes to the game and really obvious things appear to have been missed. They apparently also did a really conservative production run for their MK3 products and didn't make enough. This seems like a risk adverse decision that a company that is flat or in a decline might do. A company going from strength to strength and growing their customer base would make a slightly larger introductory product run.
The key note also looks like they're budget for marketing and video production has been slashed as well. There was nothing but a few short videos. The founder of the company calls the launch the most important thing for Privateer Press and then there's nothing... but one of the most lackluster presentations ever. Which means they were either short on time or money or both.
I think they reached market saturation and haven't held on to as many customers as they would have liked. I know so many of our local group stopped buying when X-Wing came out.
Wehrkind wrote: Yea, I am really skeptical of their play test groups after hearing what they are changing with errata right off the bat. As soon as the leaked cards popped up people in the Circle forums noticed that Heart Eater allowed you to kill friendlies and get hearts. Damned near the first thing anyone saw. Yet somehow the play testers missed that completely, and no one inside caught it before it was finalized? That's really strange seeing as how it is a key mechanic for 7 different cards in Circle. I get that playing with slightly changing rules over the course of 3 years makes it easy to miss things, but at some point you'd think they would have shown the cards to a few outsiders and gotten them to look at stuff like that. Or really, their play test groups should be made up of exactly the sort of people that notice that kind of stuff.
The worst part was PP insisting Heart Eater didn't work like that and you couldn't collect your own and you needed to wait for the full rules to come out. Then they come out and nothing stops Heart Eater from collecting off your own models and they have to drop errata for it day one.
One of the things that got to me most was Soles. He was a uniquely gak mouthpiece for this big change. He didn't understand the game or the fans nearly enough. That or he just didn't care about being accurate. Neither of which is good.
The online sales restriction thing still bugs me because its arrogant and stupidly ignores how economics works. It only works as a means of growing sales if you assume that the people who were buying online will instead buy in stores and act as advertising for the game. In reality, price-conscious consumers will continue to buy online because its still cheaper and sales will probably decline because now the products cost more and those people will buy therefore buy less of them.
motyak wrote: One of the things that got to me most was Soles. He was a uniquely gak mouthpiece for this big change. He didn't understand the game or the fans nearly enough. That or he just didn't care about being accurate. Neither of which is good.
I agree. He has a very smarmy way of writing. When he was boasting about how Menoth was the only faction with purification in it and then proceeded to talk about great the new upkeep removal spells that WEREN'T called Purification were in the insiders he wrote. Man, that just cheesed me off
motyak wrote: One of the things that got to me most was Soles. He was a uniquely gak mouthpiece for this big change. He didn't understand the game or the fans nearly enough. That or he just didn't care about being accurate. Neither of which is good.
I agree. He has a very smarmy way of writing. When he was boasting about how Menoth was the only faction with purification in it and then proceeded to talk about great the new upkeep removal spells that WEREN'T called Purification were in the insiders he wrote. Man, that just cheesed me off
If you're giving a live presentation I could understand making some mistakes on models' rules. If you're writing an article take a few minutes when you're done to check the stuff you're quoting and make sure it's actually true. I also hate how he got my hopes up for an improved Wraith Engine when he was talking about it, but they actually nerfed the hell out of it. They nerfed the Wraith Engine. The Wraith Engine. They took what was arguably the worst battle engine and removed the one rule it had that made it at all worthwhile.
MattofWar wrote: My current theory is that Privateer's sales are way down and MK3 was rushed to bring in some money.
This all makes sense to me, and now that you mention it, my group also spends what was our "Warmahordes budget" on X-wing now, but it's all just interesting conjecture unless we see some numbers, at least that ICV2 stuff.
motyak wrote: One of the things that got to me most was Soles. He was a uniquely gak mouthpiece for this big change. He didn't understand the game or the fans nearly enough. That or he just didn't care about being accurate. Neither of which is good.
I agree. He has a very smarmy way of writing. When he was boasting about how Menoth was the only faction with purification in it and then proceeded to talk about great the new upkeep removal spells that WEREN'T called Purification were in the insiders he wrote. Man, that just cheesed me off
If you're giving a live presentation I could understand making some mistakes on models' rules. If you're writing an article take a few minutes when you're done to check the stuff you're quoting and make sure it's actually true. I also hate how he got my hopes up for an improved Wraith Engine when he was talking about it, but they actually nerfed the hell out of it. They nerfed the Wraith Engine. The Wraith Engine. They took what was arguably the worst battle engine and removed the one rule it had that made it at all worthwhile.
And things like saying a certain brace of casters starting with B were getting an Arm buff...They knew the rules! Why say that when it wasn't happening! Pure stupid.
Sining wrote: Or how Deliverers were sooooo good now -_- What nonsense. Deliverers got nerfed, as if they weren't already a crappy unit in Mk2
I am loving talking about deliverers with my friend. I think he owns 1-2 units for some reason and it has been great fun since they got kicked so hard to the corner.
edit: in relation to N&R (sort of) I finally got the new war room and some cards on it. I'm really enjoying all the functionality, especially the collection mechanic
Poor dude. In mk2, they at least had pow 12 and a 5" combined attack. Now, no 5" and went down to pow 8 for some reason. A gunshot hurts more than a rocket exploding in your face.
The new war room is a lot more stable but it seems to eat battery really quickly
They would die in a storm of Bad PR and social media hate. SO instead, they target stores, which are widely established to be incapable of rebutting these accusations without damning themselves.
So because it's overwhelmingly popular, you're going to pass entirely? Seems logical.
. Yes, Warmachine is objectively the better ruleset, not that that's a high bar to reach. 
although bending them around a bit helped!).
