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 lord_blackfang wrote:
I remember back when having Open Fists everywhere was a defining trait and a big enough deal that it made up for the -4 or so POW that Cryx and Circle had compared to other factions.

???
Trolls have two open fists on all their heavy except on two character ones that still have one open fist, and all their elemental trolls. So I am a bit surprised here. Where the axer, bouncer and impaler very popular at one time?

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

There's an argument missing in that post. Taking control away can be a good balancing move.

I'm sure beatstick players are thrilled every time a control faction becomes less control and more just a worse version of beatstick.

Thing is, control suuuuuucked to play against, at least to the "skip a turn" extremes that you got. Maybe someone actually enjoyed sitting there for two turns while Haley2 played around with their army and timewalked with the feat, or liked Deneghra1 switching off their army for a turn and taking a unit of her choice out the game with one spell, but I've never met them if they exist. "Negative play experience" gets thrown around inaccurately a lot, but was entirely appropriate for those lists and playstyles.

 MattofWar wrote:

I want to see a Merc player actually play Sam and Devil Dogs. I'd like to see more Khador Heavies. I'd like to see Trenchers. Maybe some Freebooters and Sea Dog Deck Guns. Anyone remember the Teraph? I think that was the name of a beast.

I haven't been quick enough to catch the spoiled decks, so I don't know anything about Sam & Devil Dogs co. I too would like to see them play. Trenchers are going to be great. Boost in RAT, threat range, Tough, and got their price reduced. Add to this that they will likely benefit/be the cornerstone of their theme list, and I'm sure Trenchers are going to see a lot more play.

Khador Heavies theoritically should see a bump up. Power up is a bigger thing for Khador than other faction, so does the changes to repairs. The only thing is that more Heavies now means less MoW. That's a dilemma.

My main casters were both Severiuses, pReznik and Thyra. Let's just say I'm giddy as frak for MkIII.


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 Elemental wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

There's an argument missing in that post. Taking control away can be a good balancing move.

I'm sure beatstick players are thrilled every time a control faction becomes less control and more just a worse version of beatstick.

Thing is, control suuuuuucked to play against, at least to the "skip a turn" extremes that you got. Maybe someone actually enjoyed sitting there for two turns while Haley2 played around with their army and timewalked with the feat, or liked Deneghra1 switching off their army for a turn and taking a unit of her choice out the game with one spell, but I've never met them if they exist. "Negative play experience" gets thrown around inaccurately a lot, but was entirely appropriate for those lists and playstyles.

Necronoxx and Blackfang weren't refering to control as in PoM's "no" game, but to control as the idea that generally more choices given to the player are a better thing. Which is true up to a point, that point being that it may be necessary to dial back the abilities and power of some models, which may translate to simply cutting out those abilities. Necessarily, that end up "taking control away from players". That shouldn't be frowned upon as a design choice, because that may be entirely warranted.

Control & denial as play strategy clearly have been dialed back in MkIII. PP even went as far as gutting the PoM faction identity and replacing it to ensure denial was dead. Now we're Skornergy + Fire. I'm at least excited to try it out.

I play(ed) mainly TB but slowly changed focus to 40K, as WarmaHordes was stacked too much towards a bunch of individual weapon masters that resembled units. Or I got to face major control casters/locks. Or had my force run into an enemy that had their DEF or ARM stacked. It was a game of scissor-paper-rock.

Now I can see TB have been lifted of the burden of buff-tax and apparently Borka1 has the spell Arcane Ward (+2 DEF and immunity to spells) while the earthborn has elemental immunity and can hand out other immunities. From my perspective it looks like a far more even game now, rather than TB being the ones to recieve a clubbering - without being able to take it.

Waaargh wrote:
I play(ed) mainly TB but slowly changed focus to 40K, as WarmaHordes was stacked too much towards a bunch of individual weapon masters that resembled units. Or I got to face major control casters/locks. Or had my force run into an enemy that had their DEF or ARM stacked. It was a game of scissor-paper-rock.

Now I can see TB have been lifted of the burden of buff-tax and apparently Borka1 has the spell Arcane Ward (+2 DEF and immunity to spells) while the earthborn has elemental immunity and can hand out other immunities. From my perspective it looks like a far more even game now, rather than TB being the ones to recieve a clubbering - without being able to take it.

Trollbloods were one of the more well represented factions as far as tournament results go in mk2 i think.... tho I didnt really keep up with results in the past yearish.

 Elemental wrote:
Thing is, control suuuuuucked to play against, at least to the "skip a turn" extremes that you got. Maybe someone actually enjoyed sitting there for two turns while Haley2 played around with their army and timewalked with the feat, or liked Deneghra1 switching off their army for a turn and taking a unit of her choice out the game with one spell, but I've never met them if they exist. "Negative play experience" gets thrown around inaccurately a lot, but was entirely appropriate for those lists and playstyles.

It was never a particularly fun experience, no. But it was a different experience. Although I was talking more about the playstyles like suppressing warjacks through power attacks because you just didn't have the POW to actually take them out.
Or outlandish tactics like throwing your own model over the enemy battle lines. And people who kept having their warjacks knocked down complained about it being frustrating, but never considered that the other side had to somehow deal with models whose ARM was so far above their POW as to be almost invulnerable.

These things are being dialed down with every edition change and replaced with just different varieties of beating face. Add the inevitable model bloat in a limited design space, the cross-pollination of spells and abilities, and all factions are starting to look awfully similar. Any faction can make a list that plays exactly like Mk1 Cygnar or Khador. But nobody can make a list that plays like Mk1 Cryx. That style doesn't exist anymore. Abilities that used to define entire factions just don't anymore. There are less and less things you need to seriously plan around when playing against a certain faction. While this may be less "frustrating," it absolutely diminishes the variety of the play experience.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But nobody can make a list that plays like Mk1 Cryx. That style doesn't exist anymore. Abilities that used to define entire factions just don't anymore. There are less and less things you need to seriously plan around when playing against a certain faction. While this may be less "frustrating," it absolutely diminishes the variety of the play experience.

I don't know if variety that includes things that just completely shut down your opponent's turn is a good thing.

Also, having come in early in MK2 I was very happy with the state of the game - but it was getting to a point that in some ways sounds like it was similar to the end of MK1, where things had just gotten out of hand and needed re-balancing. When a game that is touted as "balanced" is seeing the same power builds over and over, a re-think is needed. I'm sure there will still be certain lists and styles that will be better than others, but from all the leaks I've seen things do look to be more level again, and that's a very good thing for the health of the game.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But nobody can make a list that plays like Mk1 Cryx. That style doesn't exist anymore. Abilities that used to define entire factions just don't anymore.

How was it? I was not around during mk1!

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Elemental wrote:
Thing is, control suuuuuucked to play against, at least to the "skip a turn" extremes that you got. Maybe someone actually enjoyed sitting there for two turns while Haley2 played around with their army and timewalked with the feat, or liked Deneghra1 switching off their army for a turn and taking a unit of her choice out the game with one spell, but I've never met them if they exist. "Negative play experience" gets thrown around inaccurately a lot, but was entirely appropriate for those lists and playstyles.

It was never a particularly fun experience, no. But it was a different experience. Although I was talking more about the playstyles like suppressing warjacks through power attacks because you just didn't have the POW to actually take them out.

The open fists are still right there on every model that had them in Mk2. And with warjacks getting free focus, power attacks will probably become more common. So I'm really not sure where this bit of your narrative is coming from.

Or outlandish tactics like throwing your own model over the enemy battle lines. And people who kept having their warjacks knocked down complained about it being frustrating, but never considered that the other side had to somehow deal with models whose ARM was so far above their POW as to be almost invulnerable.

These things are being dialed down with every edition change and replaced with just different varieties of beating face. Add the inevitable model bloat in a limited design space, the cross-pollination of spells and abilities, and all factions are starting to look awfully similar. Any faction can make a list that plays exactly like Mk1 Cygnar or Khador. But nobody can make a list that plays like Mk1 Cryx. That style doesn't exist anymore. Abilities that used to define entire factions just don't anymore. There are less and less things you need to seriously plan around when playing against a certain faction. While this may be less "frustrating," it absolutely diminishes the variety of the play experience.

Cryx (and Legion) were very unique in Mk2. Problem was, they ended up having so little in common with other factions that it created the "Cryx drop", where you had to take a lot of things unique to that faction into account when list-building, not to win necessarily, but so that you didn't auto-gg to the Bile Thrall / Excarnate play, or to Skarre with 30 Bane Knights. There's a difference between having a unique identity and "I'm not playing the same game as you."

Note that I'm not necessarily defending how Mk3 plays, because I simply don't know enough about it yet. Nobody does, including those who read leaked cards of uncertain source and time in the playtesting cycle. Nothing except a few months of table time and unlearning MK2 assumptions will show that. I don't see any point making blanket statements until the official, up-to-date stats drop, along with the full rules.

By the way, this thread about the last days of Mk1 is quite a funny read: http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?41699-Remeber-the-bad-old-days&highlight=bad+old+days

Nice link, Elemental . And yeah, hearing things like that is why I didn't start Hordes until MK2. Certainly sounds like the "bad old days" from here... not something I ever want them to go back to!

 Elemental wrote:
The open fists are still right there on every model that had them in Mk2. And with warjacks getting free focus, power attacks will probably become more common. So I'm really not sure where this bit of your narrative is coming from.

From the fact that having Open Fists used to mean a damn when they could be used to suppress enemy jacks or re-position your own models and now it doesn't because they can't.

Having Open Fists everywhere used to define you as the "throw stuff" faction, now it just defines you as the "crappy P+S" faction.


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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
But nobody can make a list that plays like Mk1 Cryx. That style doesn't exist anymore. Abilities that used to define entire factions just don't anymore.

How was it? I was not around during mk1!

Oh, to be honest it was terrible. Half the models had convoluted, circumstantial abilities that made them not worth taking because you'd never get to pull them off. The other half had convoluted but useful abilities that mostly allowed you to shut down or evade enemy models, usually without permanent harm. Barely anything in Cryx could put a dent on other factions' heavies. What you did was you traded models for time, throwing your stuff at their feet to stall until you got an angle for the caster kill. Power attacks were a big part of that, as there was no " stand up for free" rule in Mk1. You threw an enemy jack, it had to sacrifice either its move or its action next turn to get up. That's why having Open Fists was such a big deal, they could handle things that were too tough to kill.

Circle up: http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-05-31-2016

Even with the card leaks there was some stuff that was easily overlooked.

- All Arguses picked up Pathfinder and traded stat profile with griffons, lowering SPD to 6 and getting Def 14, ARM 15.
- Wild Argus (base argus) lost ranged attack for an animus that drops eenmy models in 2" to DEF 5 and stopping them running, slamming or trampling for one round.
- Satyrs got screwed nerfed, dropping them all down to Fury 3, Gnar and Rip Horn going down to SPD 5. Rip Horn lost 1 point fo STR and all had a pts drop to Gnarl and Shadowhorn at 12 pts and Riphorn at 14.
- Warpwolves picked up soem DMG boxes and the Feral lost it's old, useless animus for Primal.
- Ghetorix came out well, losing Hyper Aggresive Ornery and unYielding, but picking up Bond Kromac, giving Overtake, and picking up an Murderous as a warp ability. His animus is now also Spiny Growth (now target SELF).
- Brennos was apparently severly changed, but i wasn't famliar with him before so can't comment on the stat card.
- Woldwyrd's RoF now a flat 3, but losta point fo FURY.
- Biggie - Geomancy can no longer be used to cast upkeep spells.
- Woldwrathc picked up Hyper Regeneration (!) (Also his ranged attack got better, but that's not in the Insisder)
- All terrain placement spells are now 'completely within'.
- The Stones' teleport ability is now aslo 'completly within.
- Reeves get a flat RoF of 2, losing Snap Fire and went down to POW 8.
- Prey lost is movement boost, so Bloodtrackers now slower.
- Another biggie - Wolf Riders lose Prey, but get Annoyance, giving enemies within 1" a minus to hit.
- Bloodweaver swap Blood SPiller for Greiveace Wounds and Life Spiller-“When an attack with this weapon destroys an enemy model, immediately after the attack is resolved a friendly living Faction model currently in this model’s command range can remove d3 damage points.”
- Druids got nerfed bad. Lots of changes, ad their stat card is in the link.
- Ravagers went downt o 5 hit boxes, but gaining Tough and getting a slight point decrease.
- Ravager Shaman now a solo, not a WA, and gets an ability preventing knockdowns, whihc should match well with Tough.
- Wilder lost Spirit Tap and Medicate and Shepherds CAll, but picked up a spell allowing her to upkeep one upkeep spell without spending Fury.
- Kreuger STormlord gets an ability to repvent electrical damage to friendlies in his control area.
- Morv 1 can prevent the loss of upkeep spells by taking d3 dmg.
- Morv 2 lost purification, but picked up a spell which will allow enemy locks to upkeep upkeep spells by taking d3 dmg.
- Wurmwood is the Warlock, not cassius.
- Bradigus' Synergy getsa limit of +3 but now only costs 2.
- Kromac 2 gains Vengeful in place of Primal Howl, giving friendly model's Retaliatory Strike. His feat got reworded also - “Kromac immediately casts Carnage without spending fury. Additionally, while in Kromac’s control range, living models in his battlegroup gain +2 STR and ARM. Bloodlust lasts for one round.”

So you charge with an argus, getting within 2 inches of a high def target and then use it's animus and it'll be DEF 5/9 against ranged (5 + 4 for being in combat).

That's pretty cool and scary.

Yeah, that is pretty cool. I was a bit miffed, as I liked their old animus with the LotF and the Stalker, but this is pretty damn frightening if you're fighting it, especially if some Stones are nearby.

I am a little pissed at Wolf Riders losing Prey though. The swap of Annoyance is ridiculous. If they're ever within 1" of an enemy something has gone very wrong.

What's this? Reasonable discussion, balanced takes, and dare I say it, moderate excitement!

Circle changes seem to retain a lot of it's flavor while removing oddball corner case stuff. I expect to see the WoldWrath a bit more locally, as many folks bought it but didn't use it.

I think Annoyance is a decent concession on Wolf Riders, giving them a bit more defensive tech against counter charges or retaliation in case you can't get away after attacking. I don't recall playing them that often, did they rely on the + to hit with Prey? I mean, prey is one of the best abilities in the game, but are they handicapped without it?

I don't want to make judgements without playing them, but it's a major takeaway from them. They were perhaps the most maneuverable unit in the game in mkii with Prey, and also hit pretty damn hard with it, in exchange for being very squishy and fairlly hefty in the ptice department.

They're stick fast adn hard hitting, just not as much, but I honestly can't think of a time when they were in melee when I didn't want them there.

I'd rather have Prey, but that's not my decision.

But the Woldwrath - hell yeah! Much better now.

 .Mikes. wrote:
I don't want to make judgements without playing them, but it's a major takeaway from them. They were perhaps the most maneuverable unit in the game in mkii with Prey, and also hit pretty damn hard with it, in exchange for being very squishy and fairlly hefty in the ptice department.

They're stick fast adn hard hitting, just not as much, but I honestly can't think of a time when they were in melee when I didn't want them there.

I'd rather have Prey, but that's not my decision.

But the Woldwrath - hell yeah! Much better now.

Does the reform movement granted to Cavalry models allow them to ignore freestrikes (I don't even remember if they did in MKII, I've been involved in a limited basis for roughly the last year due to other commitments)? If it does not, then annoyance essentially gives you some survivability in case they don't kill their target initially. But agreed, losing prey hurts, but (EDIT) don't mind me, I failed to read close enough and missed that PREY no longer grants additional speed.

Nah, light cav movement didn't ignore free strikes, so your point is valid. Also with pre-measuring - which I never considered. I don't know if the new cavalry movement skill thingy will, but I'd be surprised if it does.

Oh damn, I just saw something else looking at the Rider's new card which wasn't in the Insider - they lose the ability to re-roll missed throws. *Thats* a bigger hindrance than losing Prey. Without Prey they're stuck at RAT 6. With Prey the rerolled on MAT 8, which was perhaps OP, but losing both rather than just one was harsh.

Also, they lost a point of DEF, and for the same points.

I was kind've OK with the changes before, but this seems... well, like they weren't thinking. It's not like Wolf riders were dominating every Circle force.

 .Mikes. wrote:

"- Morv 2 lost purification, but picked up a spell which will allow enemy locks to upkeep upkeep spells by taking d3 dmg....."

Emphasis mine.

Um, what?
Since when is giving your opponent more options a tactical idea? Not to mention they got rid of a spell for this?
Tell me we're missing something?

Here's the exact wording: “Upkeep spells in the spellcaster’s control range immediately expire. A spellcaster can keep any of its upkeep spells in play by suffering d3 damage points per spell. Censure can be cast only once per activation.”

Haven't looked too closely at Morv 2's card, so don't know what else has changed,.

Neronoxx wrote:

 .Mikes. wrote:

"- Morv 2 lost purification, but picked up a spell which will allow enemy locks to upkeep upkeep spells by taking d3 dmg....."

Emphasis mine.

Um, what?
Since when is giving your opponent more options a tactical idea? Not to mention they got rid of a spell for this?
Tell me we're missing something?

My guess is it's actually take D3 dmg or no upkeeping of spells.

Yeah, it's similar to the Eiryss2 change.

http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-04-20-2016

It appears that in the new edition, most effects that remove upkeeps say "unless the caster takes d3 damage points per spell". So you can resist it, but it hurts. It's not "you can take damage instead of paying for upkeep".

We have a timer: http://www.allnewwar.com/

Cygnaaaaaar!

http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-06-02-2016

TL;DR:

- Trenchers get a RAT boost to 6 (woohoo!), and bayonets get a 1" RNG and Brutal Charge (woohoo!) *and* Tough (double woohoo!)
- Trencher Grenadier gets a blast POW of 10
- Trencher Officer gets a mini feat allowing the unit to drop smoke while charging.
- Trencher cost = 10\16, Officer & Sniper 5, and UA 2 each.
- The Avenger, Hammersmith and Centurion got +1 to MAT and RAT
- Defender's Shock Hammer went up to P+S 17
- Cyclone get a major points drop to 13
- Reliant down to 14 points
- Thunderhead got +1 STR, Lightning Coil went to ROF 3, Fists went to RNG 1", Fist lose Critical Disruption, also get a slight poitns drop.
- Gun mages get Gunfighter
- Gun mage Officer loses Tactics: True Sight for Tactis: Practiced Manouvres and Granted: Swift Hunter
- Gun Mage Captain Edept get a decent reworking (card in link)
- Gunner Officer gets a minifeat of Reform 5" and Granted: Trained Fire (additional damge die on models within 8")
- Sword Knights - Defensive Line now grants +2DEF not ARM, and gives immunity to Knock Down, will cost 8/16
- Storm Callers look to have been given a fairly major rework. If I'm reading the card right (in th elink) they're no longer purchased signally, but 3 for 5pts and their Stormcall now ignores Stealth.
- Kraye now grants ALL jacks in the group Re-position 5" and impact attacks, and boosted attack rolls on charge attacks (this isn't explained further,)
- Capt. Caine can choose between Black Penny, Grievous Wounds or Trick Shot on any of his pistol shot (Reload: Infinite) and innately has True Sight.
- Nemo 1 get Field Marshal Supercharge, so all his jacks can have 4 Focus.
- SLoan (card in link) gets a new spell Guided Fire, cost 3, RNG self, AOE - CTRL, giving boosted ranged attack rolls for one turn.
- Strom Strider gets a MAT boost to 6, ARM boost to 19, LIghtning Cannon goes ot RoF 2, gains a melee attack RNG 1", P+S 13. Picks up Duel Attack, but loses Critical Disruption.

Lightning Coil has always been RoF3, and his fists still have Crit Disruption.

Stormsmiths have always ignored Stealth as previously it was a skill check, not an attack. Now it's an actual ranged attack, albeit one that ignores Cover, Concealment, Elevation and Stealth, but not LoS. They are indeed three for 5pts now, and additionally are FA:3, so you can have nine of them in a list.

Does nemo2 still do anything for them?

 malfred wrote:
Does nemo2 still do anything for them?

Don't know. Unfortunately Cygnar, along with Trollbloods were the only two factions I didn't get the cards for.

 AduroT wrote:
his fists still have Crit Disruption.

Is that was the new icon means on his card?

 .Mikes. wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
his fists still have Crit Disruption.

Is that was the new icon means on his card?

Safe to assume since it's got the Crit effect stars and the icon also shows up on the Stormsmiths' gun.

I think one of the problems lots of people has isn't that "My whole faction is invalidated", but more "the models I have and the playstyle I enjoyed is looking pretty hard to keep going". Like I loved running eSorscha with her thematic troops (Winter Guard Infantry) and some other bits and bobs. But that sort of list is...well I don't want to say dead, but the loss of abilities on both of those models has removed the two reasons I enjoyed playing that list. Sure, I know Khador got a whole raft of buffs (Silence of Death change on B3? hahahaha amazing; Karchev in general? Apparently pretty neat now). But that wasn't what brought me into the faction, and what I had bought into. I'll find my feet eventually, probably after the meta has shifted away from the initial JACKS FOR DAYS response which seems to be coming. And I'll still enjoy it. But I'm a bit disheartened still, until I can figure out how to use what I have.